Provisional Limited Optics

[GJM]

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20221220%20USPSA%20Limited%20Optics%20Provisional% 20Divisional%20Rules%20Recommendation.pdf?fbclid=I wAR0UU0rhSRfadgOWGYnHaj0Rv4JI2RipHeh-oH8qZpo_UcVc8ydI836uZqU

[DMF13]

"Psst, hey you, yeah you, with the Staccato, have I got a deal for you."

[ECK]

I’m not surprised. The concept of either allowing SAO guns into CO or creating a division around SAO w/ optic has been bubbling under the surface for a while.

From the Dec 20 meeting minutes:

We will set up a member comment system with the published proposals no later than 28 December, allowing 30 days of member comment prior to the in-person board meeting.

Looks like they are soliciting member comment on the proposal to create a provisional Limited-Optics division. Also to be included in the member comment period are proposals to:

1. Modify Production Division (increasing round capacity to 15, mag limit, mag extension as long as it fits the box, or 140mm mag limit)
2. Allow L-10 Division guns to mount an optic

I will say that I am gratified that they are going about these changes in a more member-driven approach rather than making closed-door decisions in a dark smoky room.

[cheby]

it would be interesting to see how this will affect CO and Open.

[JCN]

it would be interesting to see how this will affect CO and Open.

I think it’ll happen in phases over the years.

First year:
Staccato people in open move to Lim Optics
Some lim people with conversion barrels mill and go Lim Optics
Some people buy guns and go into the sport with it.
CO probably doesn’t change much until Lim Optics makes critical mass.

Either way… I am ready!

99156

[Gio]

I still think they should just add SAO into CO. I'm not a fan of adding more divisions to water down the low participation in most divisions in the sport as it is. I don't think anyone truly believes a SAO 2011 is going to give you an advantage over a polymer striker fired gun at this point after Nils won limited nationals shooting minor PF with a Canik. I'd rather just combine CO and limited optics into one division, and combine production and limited into one division and get rid of major PF.

[Jim Watson]

Now we only need three divisions.
Optic with a compensator (old Open)
Optic without a compensator (old CO + new Lim O)
Stick in the mud iron sight shooters, who cares what kind of gun, they are obsolete anyhow.

[YVK]

Let's see if this gets passed at all. I'm more curious of membership's response, assuming that BoD shares the true data.

[Cory]

So still no division for 2011 with dot in 9mm? Or even without the dot... Isn't that what 3 gun, the tactical games, and stuff like that have as the most popular pistol?

I don't shoot a 2011 so it doesnt really matter to me. Just seems odd. Maybe Im just pissy about major/minor.

[ECK]

Let's see if this gets passed at all. I'm more curious of membership's response, assuming that BoD shares the true data.

I agree. It’ll also be interesting to see if the number of member responses exceeds the number of members that voted in the last USPSA presidential election….

[Gio]

Let's see if this gets passed at all. I'm more curious of membership's response, assuming that BoD shares the true data.

Has a provisional division ever not been passed? I have no faith that member feedback is going to sway or change anything, no matter how negative.

[Jim Watson]

So still no division for 2011 with dot in 9mm?


Huh? That is what Limited Optic IS. Assuming they go ahead and implement it, which seems likely.

Seems like somebody at USPSA was paying attention to new gun introductions.
SA Prodigy, EAA Witness, Oracle, and DWX (will require machining or a wait for a factory optic model.)
Entry level guns for a new game, plus a draw for owners of Staccato and similar who are tired of solo drills and beer cans.

[DMF13]

1. Modify Production Division (increasing round capacity to 15, mag limit, mag extension as long as it fits the box, or 140mm mag limit)

I'm good with either 15 or 140mm. Probably easier on ROs to just have 140mm, so they are not stuck having to count rounds.

There are still some of us shooting Limited Minor because 10 round stage planning sucks. If I'm going to reload that often I might as well just dust off my 1911, and go all boomer in Single Stack!

[Jim Watson]

Reloading seems to be a skill no longer sought. Kind of like jumping a wall or crawling through a tunnel.
I am too old and creaky to do the athletic stuff but I can still stick a fresh magazine in the gun every once in a while.

Component supplies dictate my division more than anything these days. I will be shooting Limited minor 9 from a STI tonight, but it might be Limited 10 or SS next week because I have a stock of .45 components and ammo to work from, too.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm good with either 15 or 140mm. Probably easier on ROs to just have 140mm, so they are not stuck having to count rounds.

There are still some of us shooting Limited Minor because 10 round stage planning sucks. If I'm going to reload that often I might as well just dust off my 1911, and go all boomer in Single Stack!

I'll offer the opposite opinion.

1) Crafting rules to make ROs do less doesn't make the sport better. When there's a major change, that should be deliberated and researched carefully, with member feedback, paying special attention to how it will affect competition. Deleting the weight limit is a good example. What capacity is the best for Production as a USPSA division?

2) 10 round stage planning is challenging. I like that. 15 rounds might be better though, for parity with IPSC. 23+1 in PRODUCTION? That would take what's already barely recognizable as Production further in a direction that requires expensive, finicky, custom guns. No thank you.

[YVK]

Has a provisional division ever not been passed? I have no faith that member feedback is going to sway or change anything, no matter how negative.

If members' feedback is predominately negative, it is going to get leaked one way or another. The lim op was not supported by the board two years in a row, according to a recent article. I'm not sure that it has that huge of a support within the board, and I don't know if they want another controversy. I may be naive but I still don't think it is a done deal.

[GJM]

My wife says that new 226 X5 could be the division killer in Limited Optics.

[David S.]

It’s almost like all these gun companies building competition guns without a competition home, knew something.

[Jim Watson]

Nope.

The PERCEPTION will be that you have to have a 2011 to succeed.
Never mind those hyper tuned Sigs, Caniks, etc. A friend has a pair of PRP XD Elite 5.25s, one with iron sights, one with optic, that deliver hits as well as anything on the market. But they aren't Kewl.

Naturally all the Internet Experts on Benos are saying how it ought to be different.

[ECK]

With regard to proposal to increase capacity in Production Division, there are pros and cons to everything:

15 rnds proposal:
Pros: 15 rnds is more funner than 10 and will make for more interesting stage planning. Levels the playing field since most guns on the Prod list can hold 15 rnds in a factory mag. Differentiates Prod from the other divisions since it would be the only division with 15 rnds. Most newbs have at least 3 mags, so they don’t need to be stuffed into Limited-minor (and further inflating Limited activity numbers).
Con: Instead of counting to 10, ROs will now need to count to 15 or 15+1. Not all ROs are very diligent about counting to 10 as it is. 15 is going to be even worse.

**Note: I haven’t shot IDPA since they went to 15 rnds in SSP, is it a good thing or bad thing?

Factory mag length proposal:
Pros: Load ‘em up to capacity! No need for ROs to count rounds. Newb shooters with only 3 mag can now shoot Prod instead of Limited-minor division.
Cons: Mag capacity envy from those people who’s gun only holds 15 rnds, and smug looks from the guy shooting guns that hold 19… Prod essentially becomes a 19 rnd division. Allowing mag length is going to create an equipment race with mag springs to maximize capacity, and I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody figures out a spring/follower combo that increases capacity of the factory 19 rnd mags to 20 or 21 rnds.

Factory length mag w/ short mag extension:
Pros: Levels the playing field so the 15 rnd guys can add a basepad (that fits the box) to catch up to the factory 19 rnd mags. A boon for companies making extended basepads that fit the box and increase a factory mag capacity to +1, +2, +3, etc..
Cons: Yet another equipment race, only this time it is in basepads, springs, and followers. As with mag length, Prod essentially becomes a 19 rnd division (if 15 is better than 10, 19 must be way more better… right?). Same comment about innovators gonna innovate to increasing mag capacity to 20-21 rnds, and now we’re getting close to Limited and CO territory, further blurring the distinction between Prod and the hi-cap divisions.

All that being said, I’d probably shoot Prod more if capacity was increased to any of the three proposals above.

[ECK]

With regard to the Limited-Optics discussion:

I’m against adding SAO guns to Carry-Ops for no other reason than the high popularity of CO means it already appeals to a lot of people as-is, so don’t mess with it. I’m not afraid of 2011’s beating me.

Creating a provisional division in Ltd-Ops, keeping it minor PF only… yeah sure, why not. Leave it provisional for a year or two, see where it goes. Make decisions to keep, nuke, or modify based on the results. That said, I’ve yet to see a Provisional division not be adopted…. I own a 9mm 2011 that is just gathering dust now that I rarely shoot 3-gun and my diminishing eyesight drove me towards CO. If LO is adopted that might be a good excuse to get the slide milled for a RDS. Or just shoot my Shadow 2 in LO and start hammer down sans magwell.

Ask far as member comment before making any decision -ABSOLUTELY. This is what the membership complained about with the equipment rule changes circa 2020 and 2021. So I’m glad to see the current admin/BoD is being responsive. That said, this is a pretty polarized topic. People on both sides of the fence with some strong opinions. They’re not going to make everybody happy regardless of the outcome.

Allowing optics in L-10 seems like a move to resuscitate a division and boost its appeal. I don’t see this getting a big response, but that is just me.

[Gio]

Factory length mag w/ short mag extension:
Pros: Levels the playing field so the 15 rnd guys can add a basepad (that fits the box) to catch up to the factory 19 rnd mags. A boon for companies making extended basepads that fit the box and increase a factory mag capacity to +1, +2, +3, etc..
Cons: Yet another equipment race, only this time it is in basepads, springs, and followers. As with mag length, Prod essentially becomes a 19 rnd division (if 15 is better than 10, 19 must be way more better… right?). Same comment about innovators gonna innovate to increasing mag capacity to 20-21 rnds, and now we’re getting close to Limited and CO territory, further blurring the distinction between Prod and the hi-cap divisions.



My vote is for this one: as much capacity as you can fit in the production box.

Low cap is dead. Stage design for low cap is non-existent, even at most level 2-3 matches unless it's a match designed specifically for low cap. The idea that someone can show up with a gun they just bought at the gun store with everything that came in the box with it and be half way competitive in production is a misperception as well. Production has been an equipment race for the last decade, between companies that make guns specifically to maximize every bit of the rules (CZ, tanfo), to USPSA relaxing a lot of the production rules allowing drop in trigger groups, gas pedals, removing real weight limits, etc. If I take a new shooter to a USPSA match and all they have is their nightstand or EDC Glock 17/19 and a few magazines, I have them shoot limited minor anyway because navigating USPSA courses with 10 round mags is equivalent to setting the difficulty to hard-mode.

[Jim Watson]

Instead of counting to 10, ROs will now need to count to 15 or 15+1. Not all ROs are very diligent about counting to 10 as it is. 15 is going to be even worse.

**Note: I haven’t shot IDPA since they went to 15 rnds in SSP, is it a good thing or bad thing?


RO counting shots: When I was shooting CAS, there was a club whose pre-match announcement included:
"If you are going to do something unsafe or illegal to win a prize, raise your hand and we will give you a trophy. You won't even have to shoot."

I only shoot USPSA at one place these days and they have gone to nothing longer (or shorter) than 20 round "medium" stages to conserve ammo, although pre-Covid they had a good number of 30-32 shot "long" stages.
I could see a 19+1 limit for the junk divisions, so if you were careful, you wouldn't have to reload at all.

SSP-15 in IDPA has led to longer stages, more of them at maximum 18 or with hard to hit steel, and mandatory downloaded starts to force reloads. Not all the time, but more than before. I don't consider it an improvement and after a few trial runs, I went back to my usual ESP.
The provision allowing chamber loaded "Cooper" reloads is a help to me, though. I am surprised to see so few shooters taking advantage of it.

[fatdog]

All the trends make me wonder if the entire "major" distinction won't disappear at some point in the next 10 years, minimum PF and one scoring system.

I did think they were going to have to find some way to let double stack non compensated 9mm SA style guns with optics into the game at some point. They are too popular out in the world and don't really belong in open.

[ECK]

My vote is for this one: as much capacity as you can fit in the production box.

Low cap is dead. Stage design for low cap is non-existent, even at most level 2-3 matches unless it's a match designed specifically for low cap. The idea that someone can show up with a gun they just bought at the gun store with everything that came in the box with it and be half way competitive in production is a misperception as well. Production has been an equipment race for the last decade, between companies that make guns specifically to maximize every bit of the rules (CZ, tanfo), to USPSA relaxing a lot of the production rules allowing drop in trigger groups, gas pedals, removing real weight limits, etc. If I take a new shooter to a USPSA match and all they have is their nightstand or EDC Glock 17/19 and a few magazines, I have them shoot limited minor anyway because navigating USPSA courses with 10 round mags is equivalent to setting the difficulty to hard-mode.

I don’t disagree with you. Innovators gonna innovate, and part of me thinks that is a good idea. And like I said above I would probably shoot Prod more if they increased the capacity, but my concern is where the max capacity will top out at, and is turning Prod into a “hi-cap” division the right thing for the sport. 15 is a lot easier to wrap my head around.

Since you brought up weight limit changes, I have to point out that raising the weight limit in Prod from whatever the OFM specified + 4 oz pre-2020 was based on the logic to level the playing field regardless of what gun you happened to own. Pre-2020, a Glock 17 was capped out at 29 oz max weight (OFM+ 4 oz), and had to shoot heads up against guns weighing in the 40-50 oz range. Under the 2020 rule change to 59 oz, they basically leveled the field so a G17 shooter (if they wanted to) could add as much weight as they wanted so they could be on par with the all-steel framed guns like the Tangfo, CZ, Beretta, etc. Personally I think there is a point of diminishing returns with hand gun weight, and what works best for me is mid-40 oz. Guns that are too heavy slow me down on transitions and the decrease in split times doesn’t offset the longer transition time. But the point is we now have a more level playing field when it comes to weight.

Factory mag + extension (that fits the box) allows the playing field to be leveled by allowing the guns with 15-17 rnds mags to add an extension to catch up to the guns with factory mag that holds 19 (the 19’ers are probably too long to add an extension and still fit the prod/ss box).

[Cory]

Huh? That is what Limited Optic IS. Assuming they go ahead and implement it, which seems likely.

Seems like somebody at USPSA was paying attention to new gun introductions.
SA Prodigy, EAA Witness, Oracle, and DWX (will require machining or a wait for a factory optic model.)
Entry level guns for a new game, plus a draw for owners of Staccato and similar who are tired of solo drills and beer cans.

Gotcha. I missed the no major scoring bit. I was thinking 40s would still rule the roost.

Im cool with limited loosing major scoring, and being dot/iron mixed or just dot.

[ECK]

All the trends make me wonder if the entire "major" distinction won't disappear at some point in the next 10 years, minimum PF and one scoring system.

I did think they were going to have to find some way to let double stack non compensated 9mm SA style guns with optics into the game at some point. They are too popular out in the world and don't really belong in open.

The number of people shooting major PF at my local club, compared to a few years ago, has greatly diminished. If you reload 9mm, it’s easy to scrounge brass at my matches without having to sort out the .40’s.

However I think major PF will persist in Open and Limited divisions at Area and Nationals, Nils’ performance at 2022 Nats notwithstanding since he an outlier. I’m thinking the popularity of major PF will continue at the higher level matches, which also lends to shooting them at local matches.

I think the popularity of compensators is increasing across the board, not just with SAO guns. The 365 Sig Macro is a good example of a slide with integral comp. That might become a thing sometime down the road, but for now I think it best to not open that Pandora’s box. I did note the rules committee updated the definition of “compensator” in the proposed rule changes probably to get ahead of some of the new things coming out.

[Gio]

Since you brought up weight limit changes, I have to point out that raising the weight limit in Prod from whatever the OFM specified + 4 oz pre-2020 was based on the logic to level the playing field regardless of what gun you happened to own. Pre-2020, a Glock 17 was capped out at 29 oz max weight (OFM+ 4 oz), and had to shoot heads up against guns weighing in the 40-50 oz range. Under the 2020 rule change to 59 oz, they basically leveled the field so a G17 shooter (if they wanted to) could add as much weight as they wanted so they could be on par with the all-steel framed guns like the Tangfo, CZ, Beretta, etc. Personally I think there is a point of diminishing returns with hand gun weight, and what works best for me is mid-40 oz. Guns that are too heavy slow me down on transitions and the decrease in split times doesn’t offset the longer transition time. But the point is we now have a more level playing field when it comes to weight.


I don't disagree that the weight change helped the polymer gun shooters more, but it took the division even further away from the concept of "bring your factory gun from your nightstand to compete", unless your factory gun is a CZ shadow 2 with 5 extra magazines.

I think the concept of production was to create a lower cost barrier of entry to the sport when it was created, but it's just as much of an arms race as any other division now, so lets just remove the façade and make it limited minor like it's currently being played.

[Jim Watson]

I read that .40 Major is about 50% of Limited at major matches, and most of the high scores.
I don't know how long that will last, it is much less common at local shoots.

I have wondered about the feasibility of a unitary power factor based on Real 9mm, a 124+P at SAAMI 1180 is f 146.

I know that Carry Comps are showing up, and nobody has worried about singing his eyebrows or blowing jacket scrapings up his nose yet. But I hope they are a long way away from sanctioned competition.

[ECK]

I don't disagree that the weight change helped the polymer gun shooters more, but it took the division even further away from the concept of "bring your factory gun" to compete.

I think that horse left the barn a long time ago. ;)

It’s how divisions become created.

[feudist]

I've always wondered what features offer a real and durable "competitive edge".

Open has Major, the highest capacity, compensation, optics and the best possible trigger.
A lot of Divisional separation originated in the Martial Artist vs Gamer schism, the extreme expense of the original Equipment Race and the magazine fuckery of the 1994 crime bill.
The Gamers won, technology lets you bolt together a Roland special for a grand or so and only 12 states have magazine limits.

Over time, the membership made it pretty clear that 32 round field courses shot at a dead run were what they liked, period. With the doubletap requirement that skews the feature set sharply in favor of getting as close to 32 round mags as possible.


What have proven to be the non-negotiable attributes in a (theoretical)Head to Head competition and what is the Delta between them? Major/Minor? 140 vs 170 capacity? Optics? Maximum compensation? Sheer weight as a substitute for comps? Single action first shot?

Where does an Open shooter with a Roland Special end up, GM to GM?
Or a hammer down DA/SA CZ or Tanfo .40 in limited? Or for that matter shooting Minor?

Also, remember "Modified"? Does that division seem prescient now as a "Practical" Martial Artist set of features? How well would that answer Carry Optics SA vs Safe Action vs DA/SA issues?


https://youtu.be/_HMZzgdA4xc

[cheby]

This is not going to bring new shooters to the sport. Most likely it will take some from Open and CO. It does not add anything to the competition of skills. So whatever...
I am sure the majority will like it though because of the the new shiny toys and John Wick. So the feedback from "membership" will be positive. For the same reason Taylor Swift sells a lot of records if you know what I mean:)

What USPSA should be doing is to make rules identical to IPSC but that is not going to happen anytime soon.

[ECK]

What USPSA should be doing is to make rules identical to IPSC but that is not going to happen anytime soon.

Just curious, why do you think USPSA should align with the IPSC ruleset?

[Clusterfrack]

This is not going to bring new shooters to the sport. Most likely it will take some from Open and CO. It does not add anything to the competition of skills. So whatever...
I am sure the majority will like it though because of the the new shiny toys and John Wick. So the feedback from "membership" will be positive. For the same reason Taylor Swift sells a lot of records if you know what I mean:)

What USPSA should be doing is to make rules identical to IPSC but that is not going to happen anytime soon.
cheby and I don’t always agree, but I sure do now.

[Clusterfrack]

Just curious, why do you think USPSA should align with the IPSC ruleset?

Hoser hicap stages don’t test a very wide range of shooting skills. Like 10+ HF on a field course.

IPSC has a balance that is far more challenging.

The IPSC division rules are less retarded (subjective, I know), and include a wider range of truly competitive gun types.

As well, the USPSA charter includes fielding a team and supporting international competition.

[cheby]

Hoser hicap stages don’t test a very wide range of shooting skills. Like 10+ HF on a field course.

IPSC has a balance that is far more challenging.

The IPSC division rules are less retarded (subjective, I know), and include a wider range of truly competitive gun types.

As well, the USPSA charter includes fielding a team and supporting international competition.

All above plus:
1) If IPSC becomes the Olympic sport it would be a major boost for gun rights everywhere.
2) IPSC divisions are separated (mostly) on what actually makes difference in shooting instead of pleasing gun makers and tac-tards. For example - IPSC Production Optics and Production Optics Light. Weight is an important factor in recoil management. What we have in USPSA instead for Production and CO? - idiotic 59Oz weight limit (Essentially no weight limit), flashlights and thumb rests are okay. But no magwells for some reason. Makes sense, right?
3) Just wanted to emphasize one more time - hoser stages that are so popular in USPSA are stupid and target general public who cannot shoot. I discussed this with my local match directors numerous times trying to convince them to make our matches more challenging. The response is always the same - it would discourage many people to compete.

[RJ]

Roughly speaking, how many people shoot IPSC vs. USPSA, anyone know off hand?

[ECK]

I asked my question because I was genuinely curious why some people prefer IPSC to USPSA. I’ve never shot an IPSC match, lack of availability where I live.

cheby and Clusterfrack bring up some interesting points, but some of the comments re hoser stages are because that’s what local stage designers create, not the rulebook. I design stages for my local club matches and if I feel like our matches are turning too much into a hose fest, or not enough steel, I’ll set something up that creates different challenges. I like variety as well, but I do not want a rulebook that says I have to follow a certain ratio of short:medium:long courses. The current ammo shortage did cause some of the local stage designers to scale back their stage round count, and we’ve had some very interesting COFs as a result with good feedback from the shooters. But again, that came about because of somebody’s creativity, not a rulebook telling us what we had to do. I also like to cut the corner now and then on a stage, no can do that in IPSC. Ditto on the 8 rnd per location/view rule in IPSC, IPSC says no more than 8 rnds can be shot from a location/view, USPSA allows a more freestyle approach and we can have more than 8 rnds from a location/view as long as some of those targets can be seen from another location.

I’m only semi-familiar with the IPSC divisions and their differences from the USPSA version (i.e. Standard vs Limited, Production-IPSC vs Production-USPSA, PO-heavy and PO-lite vs CarryOps) and while some of the IPSC division requirements appeal to me I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there were some guys in XXXX region of IPSC saying “our _____ division is retarded, we should do what the USPSA guys do…”.

I get that its fun to bash the org these days, but at the end of the day the 50-70 local shooters that partake in the 20+ matches my club hosts every year just wanna have fun with their guns, hang out for half a day at the range with their buddies, and shoot some stuff. If adding or modifying a division increases more shooters, fine and dandy. If it draws people away from one division to another, such is life.

[JCS]

I still think they should just add SAO into CO. I'm not a fan of adding more divisions to water down the low participation in most divisions in the sport as it is. I don't think anyone truly believes a SAO 2011 is going to give you an advantage over a polymer striker fired gun at this point after Nils won limited nationals shooting minor PF with a Canik. I'd rather just combine CO and limited optics into one division, and combine production and limited into one division and get rid of major PF.

Nils would probably finish top 10 at open nationals using his CO gun and beat plenty of GMs with $10k open guns. It's Nils. But Nils would also beat his CO Canik Self with a Souped up 2011.

But I understand from your perspective as a top end shooter how you don't want to water down the divisions. I'd probably feel the same if I was competing at the highest level.

CO and LO are a bit redundant but CO has such a huge market share that it'll still remain #1. I suspect LO will steal a little from CO, Limited and Open and in a couple years the division share will be CO>LO>Limited>Open

Limited is really popular at my locals because people run 9 minor guns loaded up to capacity.

I have seen others discuss how USPSA loses 1/7th of its membership every year and has to bring in new shooters. This is just my opinion but those new shooters are probably buying the newest hotness from manufacturers and everyone is coming out with a 2011 variant or SA gun.

[JCS]

Also I think it would probably make more sense to have CO more like production optics with 15 rounds and LO with 140mm. It wouldn't be as redundant as having CO with 140 and LO with 140. But I don't see that happening I don't think they can lower the most popular divisions mag capacity.

[ECK]

Roughly speaking, how many people shoot IPSC vs. USPSA, anyone know off hand?

Not sure, but if I had to guess, there are probably more IPSC shooters vs USPSA.

USPSA is only shot in the US and US territories. IPSC is shot all around the world in Europe, Eastern Europe, SE Asia, Africa, Australia, South America….

A few years back there was a push in the the Philippines to break away from IPSC and adopt USPSA rules, but I don’t know what became of that.

I do remember hearing some interesting stats about Russian a few years ago: The membership in the Russian Region of IPSC was way higher than USPSA membership, but the number of active competitors wasn’t very high. The speculation behind that was you had to be a member of a shooting competition organization to own a handgun, and IPSC qualifies. So a lot of people joined IPSC to be able to purchase their handgun, shot a match, then went on with their life.

[Warped Mindless]

I dont do competition.

I’ve entertained the idea but I dont feel like having too buy/build some custom gun to be competitive.

If they had a TRUE production/ccw division where you basically compete with a straight “out of the box” gun (except maybe for an optic) then I would but from my very limited understanding, even production division isn’t quite like that.

I understand that technically I could go use a straight stock pistol if I wanted but if I’m going to go thru the hassle of competing, I actually want to be competitive and that means having not just the skill but also the right equipment.

A lot of people out there hold this same opinion and if USPSA would take these opinions into account, they would have a lot of new members.

[feudist]

I dont do competition.

I’ve entertained the idea but I dont feel like having too buy/build some custom gun to be competitive.

If they had a TRUE production/ccw division where you basically compete with a straight “out of the box” gun (except maybe for an optic) then I would but from my very limited understanding, even production division isn’t quite like that.

I understand that technically I could go use a straight stock pistol if I wanted but if I’m going to go thru the hassle of competing, I actually want to be competitive and that means having not just the skill but also the right equipment.

A lot of people out there hold this same opinion and if USPSA would take these opinions into account, they would have a lot of new members.

That's the opinion of a lot of people when they consider trying a match.
Then they actually shoot one and realize-if they're honest with themselves- that they could use the winners race gun and still lose as badly.
The skill level is just not seen in normal shooting circles and when it is it's dismissed with "They're shooting powderpuff loads" or " I could do that with a space gun"

The fallacy for a "street shooter" (like I was)is to think that only winning validates the experience.
I "competed" with my duty Glock 19 in Limited Minor before there was Production. I measured my performance by how many people I finished ahead of, whether I shot clean and how I handled Match Pressure.
It was incredibly eye opening to me as a street cop to see what real high performance meant, and to be exposed to the training concepts that supported developing that performance. I was (immodestly)the top shooter in my 700 man department and my first Classification was middle C class.
Humbling.

[GJM]

I dont do competition.

I’ve entertained the idea but I dont feel like having too buy/build some custom gun to be competitive.

If they had a TRUE production/ccw division where you basically compete with a straight “out of the box” gun (except maybe for an optic) then I would but from my very limited understanding, even production division isn’t quite like that.

I understand that technically I could go use a straight stock pistol if I wanted but if I’m going to go thru the hassle of competing, I actually want to be competitive and that means having not just the skill but also the right equipment.

A lot of people out there hold this same opinion and if USPSA would take these opinions into account, they would have a lot of new members.

Nils won Production, CO and Limited this year with a $600 Canik Rival. A friend of mine just won high overall of all divisions at a competitive AZ match, with a Glock in CO.

[Slalom.45]

I will be contacting USPSA asking them to move these guns into CO. We do not need even more divisions.

[ECK]

I will be contacting USPSA asking them to move these guns into CO. We do not need even more divisions.

You’ll get your chance as soon as they open up the member-comment portal.

[RJ]

That's the opinion of a lot of people when they consider trying a match.
Then they actually shoot one and realize-if they're honest with themselves- that they could use the winners race gun and still lose as badly.

The skill level is just not seen in normal shooting circles and when it is it's dismissed with "They're shooting powderpuff loads" or " I could do that with a space gun"


This times 1,000. Equipment is wayy down the list of why I suck at USPSA. My initial (and only) classification was a high D (38%) in Production with a stock Glock 19 Gen 5.

[ECK]

I dont do competition.

I’ve entertained the idea but I dont feel like having too buy/build some custom gun to be competitive.

If they had a TRUE production/ccw division where you basically compete with a straight “out of the box” gun (except maybe for an optic) then I would but from my very limited understanding, even production division isn’t quite like that.

I understand that technically I could go use a straight stock pistol if I wanted but if I’m going to go thru the hassle of competing, I actually want to be competitive and that means having not just the skill but also the right equipment.

A lot of people out there hold this same opinion and if USPSA would take these opinions into account, they would have a lot of new members.

I suppose there can be a few barriers to competition, but the main is just getting off the X and finding a match and shooting it. I still remember my first match: I found the match online at a club near my house, showed up on match day and asked the first guy I ran into if they let people observe. He asked if I brought my gun (which I did) and he told me to go get it. He had me squad with him to show me the ropes, another guy loaned me a few mags (I only brought 3 1911 mags), and I had a great time. I didn’t finish all that well, but I wasn’t last and I didn’t do anything to scare my squad mates.

I didn’t start until my late 30’s. I knew about it, but was under the perception that it required fairly specialized guns, same as you. I was wrong. I competed for my first year with a fairly stock Kimber Series I 1911 in Single Stack division. I did have to buy more mags, a belt, better holster, six mag pouches, and load my ass off on a single stage press. But I did it, had a ton of fun, and here I am 15-ish years later and still bangin’ away and having fun.

Probably my most ‘competition’ specific gun I have is my 6” 2011 a local gunsmith/fellow competitor built for me for limited division. Most of my other guns have been factory production guns that have been to one extent or another been DIY’ed to make them suit me better. Some of those mods were chasing the latest fad, others are what I determined make me shoot best. I’m currently shooting a CZ Shadow 2 with my own DIY trigger job with springs and part from CGW that probably cost less than $60, although milling the slide for CO cost almost as much as the SRO I have on it.

But every now and then for S&G I shoot my EDC gun (a Sig 365XL w/ HS red dot on it). The few times a year I do shoot IDPA I use my EDC gun while wearing street clothes. For me, IDPA is practice with my EDC gun, USPSA is for racing.

When I first started the equipment rules were the furthest thing from my mind. Now, if I am even contemplating buying a new gun, one of the first thoughts that cross my mind is, I wonder what division I could shoot this in?

[JCN]

My wife says that new 226 X5 could be the division killer in Limited Optics.

The actual division killer that people don’t realize is the Alien Retro.

The 226 X5 is nice and all, but it’s still a tilting barrel.

Alien fixed barrel to the frame is on a whole different level of speed and recoil management.

As soon as they release viable mag extensions for it, that’s what I’m running.

[Clusterfrack]

The actual division killer that people don’t realize is the Alien Retro.


I would love to see the Alien displace custom 2011s.

[feudist]

The actual division killer that people don’t realize is the Alien Retro.

The 226 X5 is nice and all, but it’s still a tilting barrel.

Alien fixed barrel to the frame is on a whole different level of speed and recoil management.

As soon as they release viable mag extensions for it, that’s what I’m running.

Mother of God, it's 5300 yankee dollars.:eek:
I just spotted my underwear.

[Quantrill]

USPSA is going the way of NASCAR and MLB. They keep changing the rules in hopes that they’ll increase participants. I think all they’re doing is alienating the core shooters that will still be involved in 5 years.

I really hope that Limited/ major PF doesn’t go extinct. My son shot Limited Nat’s for the first time this year, watching high level dudes getting down with major PF & irons is just awesome to watch. 4 of the top 19 are from our area so we have a lot of local Limited heat.

[JCN]

Mother of God, it's 5300 yankee dollars.:eek:
I just spotted my underwear.

I think the custom 2011s are in that ballpark.

Because one is none and all that…

99183

[ECK]

Member comment is up: https://uspsa.org/surveys

[JCS]

USPSA is going the way of NASCAR and MLB. They keep changing the rules in hopes that they’ll increase participants. I think all they’re doing is alienating the core shooters that will still be involved in 5 years.

I really hope that Limited/ major PF doesn’t go extinct. My son shot Limited Nat’s for the first time this year, watching high level dudes getting down with major PF & irons is just awesome to watch. 4 of the top 19 are from our area so we have a lot of local Limited heat.

I'd like to know what is the average lifespan of a USPSA member. I'd ponder a guess and say it's less than 5 years.

I know the data that does get thrown around is 1/7 of the membership doesn't renew every year. That seems like a lot to me and USPSA has to replace that every year. Following the firearms market is one way to do that.

[ECK]

I think the custom 2011s are in that ballpark.

Because one is none and all that…

99183

I think that is why I like poor-man’s Open so much.

[feudist]

I think the custom 2011s are in that ballpark.

Because one is none and all that…

99183

You have any video shooting that gat?

[JCS]

Member comment is up: https://uspsa.org/surveys

I submitted and it said error. Then it went to a screen that said Survey Completed thank you for your feedback.

I don't understand L-10 with optics. Why.......

[Cheap Shot]

USPSA is going the way of NASCAR and MLB. They keep changing the rules in hopes that they’ll increase participants. I think all they’re doing is alienating the core shooters that will still be involved in 5 years.

I really hope that Limited/ major PF doesn’t go extinct. My son shot Limited Nat’s for the first time this year, watching high level dudes getting down with major PF & irons is just awesome to watch. 4 of the top 19 are from our area so we have a lot of local Limited heat.

My opinion FWIW is the volunteer nature of USPSA is its greatest limiting factor. RO's are volunteers and the rules keep getting more a and more complicated. Stage set up can take an entire day and few competitors turn out to help.

In my local club were fortunate to have enough people to make it work but most are in their 60's and 70's. They're going to age out and I dont see any volunteer replacements on the horizon. I hope this isnt a nationwide phenomena.

For me its the best gun game for technical skill development and testing.

[JCS]

I think the custom 2011s are in that ballpark.

Because one is none and all that…

99183

Hey you can vote to allow frame mounted optics and they will both have a home :)

[Caballoflaco]

I'd like to know what is the average lifespan of a USPSA member. I'd ponder a guess and say it's less than 5 years.

I know the data that does get thrown around is 1/7 of the membership doesn't renew every year. That seems like a lot to me and USPSA has to replace that every year. Following the firearms market is one way to do that.

The average participation time in any hobby is around 16 months or so for the average person according to a quick google search. People are flaky and this is a problem all hobby-sports deal with, not just USPSA.

Ask Archer1440 about archery stuff or cyclists about the turnover on a group ride they’ve been doing for a couple of years.

[Quantrill]

I'd like to know what is the average lifespan of a USPSA member. I'd ponder a guess and say it's less than 5 years.

I know the data that does get thrown around is 1/7 of the membership doesn't renew every year. That seems like a lot to me and USPSA has to replace that every year. Following the firearms market is one way to do that.

Maybe. Markets are fickle in my opinion.

It seems like USPSA had plenty of members before the flurry of equipment changes of the last few years.

[JCN]

Maybe. Markets are fickle in my opinion.

It seems like USPSA had plenty of members before the flurry of equipment changes of the last few years.

If you read the CO history article, USPSA almost doubled their membership during CO years. It made a huge difference.


You have any video shooting that gat?

Old video for me


https://youtu.be/GBxfT72Z03I

[ECK]

I submitted and it said error. Then it went to a screen that said Survey Completed thank you for your feedback.

I don't understand L-10 with optics. Why.......

I got the same, but then it went thru (hopefully). I suspect their website is getting a few hits tonight….

I struggled with the L10 proposal, not sure I see the point either. I suspect somebody hope’s it will be a defibrillator and help breathe life back into L10. But I don’t really have a dog in that fight. I’m classified in L10 but haven’t shot it in almost 10 years.

[Quantrill]

If you read the CO history article, USPSA almost doubled their membership during CO years. It made a huge difference.

I understand the numbers increase, I question whether that is a positive or negative.

The tactical kilt crowd really doesn’t bring much value in my opinion.

[JCN]

I understand the numbers increase, I question whether that is a positive or negative.

The tactical kilt crowd really doesn’t bring much value in my opinion.

I think that’s probably region dependent.

IMO they do at least over here. Guys with USPSA numbers higher than 119k are all running our main clubs here and doing a great job.

[Archer1440]

All above plus:
1) If IPSC becomes the Olympic sport it would be a major boost for gun rights everywhere.


That will never, ever happen. I can bring receipts to this discussion if needed but the short answer is no, not a chance.

(I am involved in an Olympic sport and spent 30 years working for a member of the IOC)

[CleverNickname]

That will never, ever happen. I can bring receipts to this discussion if needed but the short answer is no, not a chance.

(I am involved in an Olympic sport and spent 30 years working for a member of the IOC)

Is the reason anything other than "guns (especially handguns) are icky?"

[ECK]

My opinion FWIW is the volunteer nature of USPSA is its greatest limiting factor. RO's are volunteers and the rules keep getting more a and more complicated. Stage set up can take an entire day and few competitors turn out to help.

In my local club were fortunate to have enough people to make it work but most are in their 60's and 70's. They're going to age out and I dont see any volunteer replacements on the horizon. I hope this isnt a nationwide phenomena.


I don’t think it is, or at least I hope not. At my club we setup the morning of and we’re done within an hour, hour and a half tops. 6-7 stages depending on turn out. All volunteers. Stage designers and MD get a modest discount on the match fee.

We expect everyone to help setup and tear down. We used to announce setup time @ 0830 & shooter’s meeting @ 1000. It’s subtle, but that enabled some people to roll in around 0945, look at the stages then belt up. Now we just say the match starts at 0830. Not sure what average age is, but I suspect it is early 40’s to mid-50’s, with a bunch of kids on the low end and a bunch of super seniors on the high end.

The club has also invested in us, we have a side-by-side w/ trailer and ATV w/ trailer to help move things around. So some of that is club culture, some of it is the club putting some of the match fee back into the matches to make things go easier and faster.

[Archer1440]

Is the reason anything other than "guns (especially handguns) are icky?"

To be in the Olympic Games, sports must have several factors. The biggest ones, in order, are:

Universality- participation in every continental region which for Olympic purposes is the Americas, Asia, Europe, Africa and Oceania. Not sure how many Aussies and Kiwis participate these days.

Gender equality. Check, in that AFAIK a woman can compete with and against men for the same prize money, etc in IPSC.

Gender Equity. That’s a tough one, in a sport that has what- a 25-1 male/female participation ratio?

Televisibility. Needs to be interesting for television. Very doable in my opinion but…

The real elephant in the room is that some influential IOC members - including the President, Thomas Bach, don’t really care for guns in the first place (conveniently ignoring the ones being carried by their security details at the Games) which is why firearms based competition with actual “lead styphnate goes bang” devices is more and more limited in the Games. And mind you Bach was an Olympic FENCER. A sport where you are scoring points STABBING PEOPLE.

And this is not a new phenomenon. Read this for starters… 22 years ago now. https://apnews.com/article/30594033cc4d9602ff248b56f6778822

So, yeah. “Guns icky”. Slack jawed as that may be, it’s what we would have to overcome.

[cheby]

To be in the Olympic Games, sports must have several factors. The biggest ones, in order, are:

Universality- participation in every continental region which for Olympic purposes is the Americas, Asia, Europe, Africa and Oceania. Not sure how many Aussies and Kiwis participate these days.

Gender equality. Check, in that AFAIK a woman can compete with and against men for the same prize money, etc in IPSC.

Gender Equity. That’s a tough one, in a sport that has what- a 25-1 male/female participation ratio?

Televisibility. Needs to be interesting for television. Very doable in my opinion but…

The real elephant in the room is that some influential IOC members - including the President, Thomas Bach, don’t really care for guns in the first place (conveniently ignoring the ones being carried by their security details at the Games) which is why firearms based competition with actual “lead styphnate goes bang” devices is more and more limited in the Games. And mind you Bach was an Olympic FENCER. A sport where you are scoring points STABBING PEOPLE.

And this is not a new phenomenon. Read this for starters… 22 years ago now. https://apnews.com/article/30594033cc4d9602ff248b56f6778822

So, yeah. “Guns icky”. Slack jawed as that may be, it’s what we would have to overcome.

Okay, fuck the Olympics, I don't want to be a part of it.

[Jim Watson]

At the indoor USPSA tonight I was one of three iron sight shooters out of 15 entries.
One PCC, one real Open gun.
Three "opens" that were really COs with minor disqualifiers. Probably IDPA CO.
Seven regulation USPSA CO.

So 2/3 dots on slides.


I recall reading that IPSC was negotiating for an Olympic "demonstration sport" presence in the 1990s.
They were even going to change the scoring to "time plus" a la IDPA so spectators could keep track of what was going on.

[Archer1440]

I recall reading that IPSC was negotiating for an Olympic "demonstration sport" presence in the 1990s.
They were even going to change the scoring to "time plus" a la IDPA so spectators could keep track of what was going on.

In 2019, IPSC managed to move a bit forward, by being granted GAISF Observer Status (Google it, tldr is they were let in the servant door of a IOC recognized governing body for wannabe Olympic sports, putting them literally on the level of Dodgeball and Footgolf. And no I am not making this up.)

At the time it was promoted as a “gun safety promotional initiative” (copy-pasta to google the phrase “IPSC ON A MISSION TO PROMOTE SAFE USE OF FIREARMS THROUGH SPORT“ to get to this dead link here or you’ll get a 404- https://gaisf.sport/ipsc-on-a-mission-to-promote-safe-use-of-firearms-through-sport/])

Freaking AIRSOFT was a part of this initiative.

Here we are at the end of 2022, and guess which 55-year old IOC recognized organization for wannabe Olympic sports was permanently dissolved earlier this month? GAISF.

I won’t even get into how ISSF has actively worked to block IPSC efforts in this general direction over the past three decades. Bucket of crabs.

[YVK]

I started a poll on the Enos forum, asking how people voted in the USPSA survey. Part of the reason was to quantify the breakdown of public opinions, and part to see if this will match with whatever the USPSA will say about their survey. So far I am surprised about the results of first 20 or so voters.

Meanwhile, dry firing my Shadows from cocked and locked yesterday, I again reminded myself that their thumb safeties' ergos suck comparing to 1911.

[Gio]

But Nils would also beat his CO Canik Self with a Souped up 2011.


I disagree about this part, but I think that's a common misperception with regards to SAO/2011 style guns that is a holdover from the 90's and early 2000's when the alternatives were heavy DA/SA triggers and striker fired guns without as much customization available to make them on par.

At some point the firearm matters, but a fully tricked out Glock/Canik/Sig320/other high end striker fired polymer gun has no disadvantage to a 2011 and will not create a statistically different score for the same high level shooter.

[ECK]

Meanwhile, dry firing my Shadows from cocked and locked yesterday, I again reminded myself that their thumb safeties' ergos suck comparing to 1911.

I was thinking about that last night. If LO is adopted, I’ll probably just shoot my Shadow 2 and start with the hammer down for the same reason.

[JCN]

I started a poll on the Enos forum, asking how people voted in the USPSA survey. Part of the reason was to quantify the breakdown of public opinions, and part to see if this will match with whatever the USPSA will say about their survey. So far I am surprised about the results of first 20 or so voters.

Meanwhile, dry firing my Shadows from cocked and locked yesterday, I again reminded myself that their thumb safeties' ergos suck comparing to 1911.

I think also, Enos like PF probably doesn’t represent the opinions of the general population…

[cheby]

I was thinking about that last night. If LO is adopted, I’ll probably just shoot my Shadow 2 and start with the hammer down for the same reason.

There’s no much difference between shadow 2 and 2011. The first shot and location of the safety. That’s all. The SA trigger is even better for some on shadow 2.
Acceptance of pistols like shadow 2 and stock2 is what that killed Production in the first place.

[Artemas2]

Voted. For me it boiled down to

Add slide mounted optic SAO to CO. the "gear" gap of modern production guns to SAOs is pretty close and we don't need more divisions.

No, I am not spending 2k or more to shoot a "new" division

Production 15: I prefer 10 rounds, but current stage design trends are not locap friendly and it is in line with the other sports, and still maintains some complexity of stage planning.

L-10 with optics: While I should vote no on principal, I think people will be surprised at how close the result are when capacity advantage is no longer a factor.
and this will make a 10 round catch-all division for those who want/need it.

I am not happy with all the poll options, but I am not against the game changing to reflect new things.

[ECK]

There’s no much difference between shadow 2 and 2011. The first shot and location of the safety. That’s all. The SA trigger is even better for some on shadow 2.
Acceptance of pistols like shadow 2 and stock2 is what that killed Production in the first place.

Oh, so you’re saying Shadow 2 shooters like me had a hand in killing off Production? How about the SP-01? I shot that gun for a couple years when Prod was one of the most popular divisions.

And while the trigger pull weight between my Shadows and my 2011’s are setup the same (~2 lbs), the break is completely different. Shadow has more of a rolling break while the 2011s are a more crisp wall. There’s also a weight difference with the Shadow 2 being a few ounces heavier.

[Bergeron]

The biggest question is what purposes, in what priorities, are served by the existence of different divisions?

I like shooting the guns I have in competition settings- so I'm a poor respondent in that I'm not really thinking about if my stuff is competitive in the divisions that it fits into.

I don't perceive a big difference between a 2011 and (for example) a tungsten-framed 320 with an aftermarket trigger. There's other stuff that's just as heavy as 2011, and with comparable triggers. My Glocks and my crusty old 1911 have very similar triggers- no advantage there.

Optics on anything makes a huge difference, and now that mounting solutions are more broadly available across all the popular platforms, the only people not shooting optics are purposefully counting themselves out. Optics are fundamentally out there for anyone who wants them, on any platform.

In practical terms, 9mm has won the cartridge wars. Minor scoring, regardless of actual Power Factor, is more representative of practical terminal results than Major scoring. The guns all hold at least 15 shots.

I don't even know what I think about comps. Mini-comps are neat, and I like mine, but they're never gonna be common like optics, and they don't provide the benefits of the bigger Open comps.

[GJM]

I think if Single Stack allowed an optic, participation would increase significantly.

[GJM]

I think if Single Stack allowed an optic, participation would increase significantly.

Basically allowing an optic will increase participation in any division. Conversely, the same is true. Imagine if PCC was made iron sights only, it would die.

[cheby]

Oh, so you’re saying Shadow 2 shooters like me had a hand in killing off Production? How about the SP-01? I shot that gun for a couple years when Prod was one of the most popular divisions.

And while the trigger pull weight between my Shadows and my 2011’s are setup the same (~2 lbs), the break is completely different. Shadow has more of a rolling break while the 2011s are a more crisp wall. There’s also a weight difference with the Shadow 2 being a few ounces heavier.

Well, I used to shoot Shadow and then Shadow 2 for years as well in production. I got my Shadow 2 before it became legal for Production. I shoot custom 2011 these days (Mostly) Obviously there are some minor differences between Shadow 2 and 2011. Even between Shadow and Shadow 2. My point was that philosophically, Shadow 2 in the same category as 2011 as opposed to, say, Glock. It is purposely built for competition. There are/were a few members on this forum, VERY accomplished shooters who no longer shoot USPSA for that particular reasons.

[bofe954]

I started a poll on the Enos forum, asking how people voted in the USPSA survey. Part of the reason was to quantify the breakdown of public opinions, and part to see if this will match with whatever the USPSA will say about their survey. So far I am surprised about the results of first 20 or so voters.

Meanwhile, dry firing my Shadows from cocked and locked yesterday, I again reminded myself that their thumb safeties' ergos suck comparing to 1911.

Can you link your poll?

I don't mind the new division, I think it should be a step towards a new system though. I think there should be a place for more stock, carryable pistols in the sport, and production and carry optics isn't it anymore.

[cheby]

Well, I used to shoot Shadow and then Shadow 2 for years as well in production. I got my Shadow 2 before it became legal for Production. I shoot custom 2011 these days (Mostly) Obviously there are some minor differences between Shadow 2 and 2011. Even between Shadow and Shadow 2. My point was that philosophically, Shadow 2 in the same category as 2011 as opposed to, say, Glock. It is purposely built for competition. There are/were a few members on this forum, VERY accomplished shooters who no longer shoot USPSA for that particular reasons.

Just wanted to add/clarify. When Production was a thing, many LE guys were shooting it with their issued Glocks. Yes, they would modify a trigger and install a FO sight but everything else was essentially identical to their issued firearms. When Stock 2 and later Shadow 2 became so popular, many LEO believed their Glocks were not competitive enough but they did not want to shoot anything that was so drastically different from their work guns. Again, I personally know at least 3 of them. All real GM level of shooters. There were a lot of discussion about this issue back in the days. I remember Ben Stoeger back in 2014 was specifically addressing it justifying his decision to go with Stock 2 saying that unfortunately it became the only way. You could argue that a gun does not matter and somebody will bring up Nils and his Canik. All true to some extend. The reality is gear matters and Nils shoots his Canik because he is paid to do so. He is winning because he is that good. Different planet kind of good. Natural freak. Most people are not.
The question is not that Nils beats everyone with his Canik. The real question is would he beat himself shooting, say, a Shadow 2? Again, gear matters and that is how different divisions in USPSA should be organized, not to attract as many participants as possible.

[Zincwarrior]

"Psst, hey you, yeah you, with the Staccato, have I got a deal for you."

Interesting that the New very expensive Sig X-Five came out recently. Pure coincidence I am sure.

[YVK]

Can you link your poll?



https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/304575-how-did-you-vote-on-limited-optics-in-uspsa-survey/

As of now, out of about 40 votes, 3:1 for the new division or simply allowing SAO guns.

[Zincwarrior]

Now we only need three divisions.
Optic with a compensator (old Open)
Optic without a compensator (old CO + new Lim O)
Stick in the mud iron sight shooters, who cares what kind of gun, they are obsolete anyhow.
Kind of like that, actually.

[ECK]

Well, I used to shoot Shadow and then Shadow 2 for years as well in production. I got my Shadow 2 before it became legal for Production. I shoot custom 2011 these days (Mostly) Obviously there are some minor differences between Shadow 2 and 2011. Even between Shadow and Shadow 2. My point was that philosophically, Shadow 2 in the same category as 2011 as opposed to, say, Glock. It is purposely built for competition. There are/were a few members on this forum, VERY accomplished shooters who no longer shoot USPSA for that particular reasons.

Sounds like what you are describing is not a factory production gun but a division that has a very low weight limit to cater to the Glocks and other polymer guns. But what about the Glock 34, that was Glock’s competition offering when it first came out, to the extent that it is not on the IPSC approved Production list (unless they’ve changed the rule).

I’ve seen guys come and go from this sport, they all have their own reasons. I know a guy, LE, and very accomplished Prod M-class shooter and with some work probably would have made GM but family/work life got in the way. He competed with various guns in the time I’ve known him (including steel framed DA/SA), but since his dept issues Glocks, that’s what he competed with. But never once did I hear him complain about getting beat by the gun. I also shoot with a couple other LEs from the same dept (one M and the other A) that despite being issued Glocks, they choose to run tricked out Sig 320’s.

[ECK]

Just wanted to add/clarify. When Production was a thing, many LE guys were shooting it with their issued Glocks. Yes, they would modify a trigger and install a FO sight but everything else was essentially identical to their issued firearms. When Stock 2 and later Shadow 2 became so popular, many LEO believed their Glocks were not competitive enough but they did not want to shoot anything that was so drastically different from their work guns. Again, I personally know at least 3 of them. All real GM level of shooters. There were a lot of discussion about this issue back in the days. I remember Ben Stoeger back in 2014 was specifically addressing it justifying his decision to go with Stock 2 saying that unfortunately it became the only way. You could argue that a gun does not matter and somebody will bring up Nils and his Canik. All true to some extend. The reality is gear matters and Nils shoots his Canik because he is paid to do so. He is winning because he is that good. Different planet kind of good. Natural freak. Most people are not.
The question is not that Nils beats everyone with his Canik. The real question is would he beat himself shooting, say, a Shadow 2? Again, gear matters and that is how different divisions in USPSA should be organized, not to attract as many participants as possible.

Is that your thesis, that gear matters, and USPSA divisions should be based on gear, and not to attract as many participants as possible? I’ve read your posts on this topic and I’m having a hard time figuring out where you’re coming from…

You said earlier that allowing certain guns into Production is what killed it. So the org is to blame. I disagree. I think what caused the low participation in Prod at the local level is the desire of the shooting community to shoot guns they like with cheap ammo, bc face it, regardless of how much a gun costs, if you’re a serious shooter your ammo budget way exceeds your hardware costs.

USPSA divisions should be based on gear. I tend to agree, but where do you draw the lines when you also say that some guns are in the same category? USPSA basically separated the divisions by action type, capacity, and what you could and could not hang on it. Then we also have three divisions based solely on the type of gun (1911, PCC, and revolver). I suppose USPSA could do what IPSC did with their Production-Optics and PO-lite, and with strict rules about what you can and cannot mod. Or, they could go the opposite direction and let people mod to their hearts content (including adding weight) thereby leveling the playing field that way between different gun models. So if you wanted to make a Glock 17 weigh 59+ oz w/ a sub 2 lb trigger, you could.

I’m not LE, but competing (and thereby getting a sh!t ton more practice than the dept requires) with a duty issue gun makes sense to me. But I don’t see what that has to do with the topic at hand. Ditto Stoeger’s choice to break away from his Beretta Elite to a Stock 2. Or Jonassen’s decision to shoot for Canik. I posted a while back on this forum that I have a Beretta LTT, really like the gun (or the idea of it), but I’ve found out that I shoot my Shadow 2s about 5-10% better based on some drills. So I’ve shelved the LTT in favor of the S2 for USPSA. The point being, I get to choose, just like Stoeger did, just like Nils did, and just like you did when you chose to shoot your custom 2011s.

And the beauty of all these choices is, the way the current USPSA divisions are set up there is a division for you to compete in. IF Limited-Optics (what this thread is about) does become a thing, then that is benefitting the people who purchased (or want to purchase) a 9mm 2011 a place to play where they aren’t going up against guys shooting comps and frame mounted red dots in Open. This proposal was MEMBER driven, so it came from people who were already USPSA members, and if it does attract non-USPSA members then so be it. If I setup a match with 6-7 stages, it makes no difference to me if 50 people show up or 70.

[cheby]

But I don’t see what that has to do with the topic at hand.

The topic at the moment was my remark on Shadow 2 impact on Production and your disagreement with that . That was my post about, not about Limited Optics. I have no problem with LO.

I know it is not a popular opinion but one more time: a lot of people were coming to our sport through Production. The appeal was everything I mentioned before. When it became another gear race division, people moved on. The rule fuckery with Production is ridiculous. That is why I sold my Shadow 2s and moved to Limited in 2018. Carry Optics amplified that as well of course.
Deep down inside I miss old Production shooting Glocks. I would go back to it immediately if it were a thing. Or Production Optics light for that matter. Weight limit, no modifications, 10rds is fine. Purity.

[JCN]

Deep down inside I miss old Production shooting Glocks. I would go back to it immediately if it were a thing. Or Production Optics light for that matter. Weight limit, no modifications, 10rds is fine. Purity.

I say that about commuting through rush hour with a manual transmission convertible sports car (aaah the S2000).

But then I step into my CVT Subaru with adaptive cruise and realize the nostalgia is sweeter than the reality.

Like the time my wife and I went to Olive Garden on a whim after we had eaten at Alinea and French Laundry… it did NOT go well, lol.

[cheby]

I say that about commuting through rush hour with a manual transmission.

But then I step into my CVT Subaru with adaptive cruise and realize the nostalgia is sweeter than the reality.

Like the time my wife and I went to Olive Garden on a whim after we had eaten at Alinea and French Laundry… it did NOT go well, lol.

LOL, you are probably correct. I may be day dreaming. I should go home and dry fire my CO gun. Limited Optics is coming!

[YVK]

LOL, you are probably correct. I may be day dreaming. I should go home and dry fire my CO gun.

Wait a bit. Who knows, maybe they'll allow major pf and you'll be putting optic on one of your Limited guns.
To be totally honest, I kinda hope that they do. Since everyone keeps saying that over half of the scores in Limited now is in minor, and Nils with his minor, and all of that, then why not. If the goal is just to let Staccato guys come and play, why would Staccato guys care about power factor.

[cheby]

Wait a bit. Who knows, maybe they'll allow major pf and you'll be putting optic on one of your Limited guns.
To be totally honest, I kinda hope that they do. Since everyone keeps saying that over half of the scores in Limited now is in minor, and Nils with his minor, and all of that, then why not. If the goal is just to let Staccato guys come and play, why would Staccato guys care about power factor.

Another option is to shoot L10 with the dot. Looks like that is coming. Haha.
To be honest at this point I want a mandatory major rules change every 6 months to keep it fresh. Or something.
Ugh...

[cheby]

So at this point we should start thinking what the next rule change is going to be. I think allowing compensators along with magwells in CO (and LO) is the next thing. Because members want it, right? There are many companies who make them already. It would also allow Open guys to shoot CO. Good, more options.

[ECK]

The topic at the moment was my remark on Shadow 2 impact on Production and your disagreement with that . That was my post about, not about Limited Optics. I have no problem with LO.

I know it is not a popular opinion but one more time: a lot of people were coming to our sport through Production. The appeal was everything I mentioned before. When it became another gear race division, people moved on. The rule fuckery with Production is ridiculous. That is why I sold my Shadow 2s and moved to Limited in 2018. Carry Optics amplified that as well of course.
Deep down inside I miss old Production shooting Glocks. I would go back to it immediately if it were a thing. Or Production Optics light for that matter. Weight limit, no modifications, 10rds is fine. Purity.

So let me get this straight, you bailed on Production division a year BEFORE they did all the rule fuckery as you call it, and went to a division where there essentially are no restrictions other than no comp or electrical optical sights. And you miss the purity of shooting Glocks when you could be shooting your Glock in any of the divisions. Riiiight…

I’d be confused if I wasn’t so amused.

[cheby]

So let me get this straight, you bailed on Production division a year BEFORE they did all the rule fuckery as you call it, and went to a division where there essentially are no restrictions other than no comp or electrical optical sights. And you miss the purity of shooting Glocks when you could be shooting your Glock in any of the divisions. Riiiight…

I’d be confused if I wasn’t so amused.

Yeah, you are confused, but that is okay

[YVK]

So let me get this straight, you bailed on Production division a year BEFORE they did all the rule fuckery as you call it, and went to a division where there essentially are no restrictions other than no comp or electrical optical sights. And you miss the purity of shooting Glocks when you could be shooting your Glock in any of the divisions. Riiiight…

I’d be confused if I wasn’t so amused.

I can and would be shooting my Glock in any division too but there is no division exists where my Glock is competitive without tungsten in the grip, tungsten in the guide rod, and TLR on the rail. Cheby is a multi-division M class shooter, he's there to complete and win so he'll play the game the way game is played, gear including. That doesn't mean that he, and others, wouldn't want to shoot something 26 oz heavy - 4 inches barrel long in a division that's made for such.

[GJM]

I can and would be shooting my Glock in any division too but there is no division exists where my Glock is competitive without tungsten in the grip, tungsten in the guide rod, and TLR on the rail. Cheby is a multi-division M class shooter, he's there to complete and win so he'll play the game the way game is played, gear including. That doesn't mean that he, and others, wouldn't want to shoot something 26 oz heavy - 4 inches barrel long in a division that's made for such.

IDPA BUG might be right down your alley.

[YVK]

IDPA BUG might be right down your alley.

What .32 cal gun is good?

[ECK]

I can and would be shooting my Glock in any division too but there is no division exists where my Glock is competitive without tungsten in the grip, tungsten in the guide rod, and TLR on the rail. Cheby is a multi-division M class shooter, he's there to complete and win so he'll play the game the way game is played, gear including. That doesn't mean that he, and others, wouldn't want to shoot something 26 oz heavy - 4 inches barrel long in a division that's made for such.

The best explanation I heard regarding the evolution of Production in the last 10 years was it was not intended to be frozen circa 2000 with only guns from that era. Things evolve. Manufacturers are going to innovate, and it is inevitable that new designs or custom fabs that become proven and popular in other divisions will eventually find their way into mass-produced factory guns if a OFM can figure out a way to bring them to market and get a ROI. So the equipment rules need to remain current to provide a level playing field as things change. I would submit that for every person who longs for the old Prod rules, there are an equal or greater number of people who welcome the changes.

Just think if SS was frozen with the M1911A1 GI model from WWII or the Korean War era, with no external features we’ve come to take for granted in a modern 1911 such as extended mag releases, extended thumb safeties, beavertails grip safeties, modern metallurgy, modern spring technology, hell even 8 rnd mags that are reliable instead of 7 rnd mags identifying as an 8 rnd mag….

FWIW, I am as competitive as the next guy, and swimming in the ever deepening pool of M-class sharks I too want to win and do well. So heck yeah I’m gonna test different guns and gear and figure out what works best for me.

[wmu12071]

IDPA BUG might be right down your alley.

I feel like BUG type class would be cool if it was based around guns people actually use and realistic capacity.

BUG and BUG optics based on p365ish sized guns and capacity. At least then there would be a division for peoples actual carry guns without reloading once per target.

[YVK]

ECK, I think we're talking on a different wavelengths. I am all for the technologic, ergonomic and what other enhancements might make their way into our guns. The point that I and cheby were making, admittedly moot at this time, is whether the Production was meant to be the division dominated by purpose-built guns to give their users a max advantage within existing rules, but otherwise useless for almost all other practical purposes. To that point you mentioning 1911s makes an interesting observation: 1911 afficionados, and we still have some even on this forum, have a division where they are fully competitive with guns effectively identical, save for trigger pull weight, to what they carry. PX4CC/HK P2000/G19/P320 Compact guns don't have such division even though many of them have more technological advancements and innovations than a beefed up version of a 1975 Czech gun. I am told such division wouldn't be viable but I am not sure how people know that since such division didn't seem to ever existed.
Anyway, that ship has sailed in a direction that is about to give us another division that will be dominated by purpose-built race guns. I am actually curious what Staccato guys are going to do about their polymer grips since STI voids the warranty if factory grip has been removed.

[ECK]

YVK, you make some valid points, but the one thing that appears to be be keeping us from doing what you suggest is our own self-imposed desire to finish well in the match (aka our competitive nature). To that end, I have a proposal: For the next match, what say we give the finger to match finish and shoot a ‘practical’ gun at USPSA matches. For me, I would shoot my EDC (a Sig 365XL) or a P10C (closest thing I own to a Glock anymore). And thanks to the 2021 RB, we can even run them AIWB (which is how I normally carry).

Something my club does on a 5th Saturday is host an outlaw match where we encourage people to show up with their CCW gun & gear to a) get some practice with our EDC in a match setting, b) see if it really works, and c) just have fun without worrying about scores or classification. We even made up divisions: John Wick (anything goes if that is what you really carry), Goldilocks for the 4”-ish G19 size compacts, and ISHBABG (I Should Have Brought A Bigger Gun) for the true subcompacts (aka G43, M&P Shield, Colt Mustang, 365…).

[Noah]

I shoot a plastic PX4 in Limited Minor from appendix and everyone else shooting 2011s and CZs and 320 Legions hasn't ruined my fun. But I'm not competing for wins. Last match I was exciting to be like 5th in limited.

If production is bumped to 15 I'd go to production. 10 rounds is a lot of reloads when every stage is 24-32 rounds and you're new to the sport.

[GJM]

Last spring, I shot a number of matches with a Glock 19 and a Mayhem comp in Open, and it was great fun.

[jbrimlow]

Anyway, that ship has sailed in a direction that is about to give us another division that will be dominated by purpose-built race guns. I am actually curious what Staccato guys are going to do about their polymer grips since STI voids the warranty if factory grip has been removed.

Well, first they'll sprout some malarkey about 'polymer flex' being actually better, even though we all know it's not. Then they'll send their guns out for an expensive new grip fitting, warranty be damned.

Then they'll finally spring for an Atlas/LimCat/SVI.

[Bucky]

So much to consider with these rule changes. As someone who started in the sport when there were no divisions, I can understand the reasoning to want to have options to competitively shoot guns that aren't full blown 2011 open guns. However, as someone who just recently started racing autocross, I see the absurdity to try to rap a "division" / class (what we call a division, they call a class) around every type of car / gun that someone might show up with.


I still think they should just add SAO into CO. I'm not a fan of adding more divisions to water down the low participation in most divisions in the sport as it is. I don't think anyone truly believes a SAO 2011 is going to give you an advantage over a polymer striker fired gun at this point after Nils won limited nationals shooting minor PF with a Canik. I'd rather just combine CO and limited optics into one division, and combine production and limited into one division and get rid of major PF.

Just because one super human can succeed with less competitive equipment, does not make that the norm. I've dual entered matches in the past with my G35 and STI 2011. In my experience of shooting, match director, and RO'ing, the equipment advantage really seems to play its most part at the B-M classifications.


So still no division for 2011 with dot in 9mm? Or even without the dot... Isn't that what 3 gun, the tactical games, and stuff like that have as the most popular pistol?


I've been shooting a 2011 9mm with a dot for almost 10 years now, and other 9mms (9x21 and .38 super) for much longer. It's called Open division. :) ;)

Even if they allow Major / Minor in this new proposed division, there is no reason you still can't shoot minor and even gain a 2 round bump in mag capacity, not to mention the lower felt recoil.

[YVK]

@LittleLebowski I lost my ability to quote people by clicking the quote icon. What am I doing wrong?


YVK, you make some valid points, but the one thing that appears to be be keeping us from doing what you suggest is our own self-imposed desire to finish well in the match (aka our competitive nature). To that end, I have a proposal: For the next match, what say we give the finger to match finish and shoot a ‘practical’ gun at USPSA matches.

I shot my carry gun, that had nearly the worst trigger system for competition which is LEM, for the first several years of starting in competition. Not just shot but practiced, dry-fired, and even took a private class with Manny Bragg using that gun. Before I got my CZs set for CO, I was shooting a G45. I've no prob doing a match with a less competitive gun. Here's what that experience taught me: it is not the best way to get better. It is not the competitive nature of me speaking. I view getting results, as in "winning" something - winning a stage, winning a match, finishing above someone you see as your nearest competitor, finishing at least within 10% of your top dog - basically "do well in a match", whatever this means to you, as an integral part of self improvement. Competing, even for trivial wins, vs shooting for fun/against yourself/for getting gooder have different types of drive. Using a non-competitive gun for most people undercuts that drive. Shooting an occasional match for fun is great but, again, I don't think it takes you that far along the path of getting better. GJM may have enjoyed shooting his Mayhem Glock in Open but what he is using to getter more better is his Ed Cameron 2011 Open gun.

[YVK]

Mods, I seems like I have not only lost ability to quote people but also tag them reliably, or edit my posts. Lemme know if this is a forum software, or something on my side.

[Jim Watson]

I am actually curious what Staccato guys are going to do about their polymer grips since STI voids the warranty if factory grip has been removed.

Same thing I said about the similar provision with the EAA copy, call your gunsmith.
The logical thing to do is to shoot the gun as is to find any built in faults calling for "good customer service".
Assuming it is functional, then open it up.

[JCN]

I view getting results, as in "winning" something - winning a stage, winning a match, finishing above someone you see as your nearest competitor, finishing at least within 10% of your top dog - basically "do well in a match", whatever this means to you, as an integral part of self improvement. Competing, even for trivial wins, vs shooting for fun/against yourself/for getting gooder have different types of drive. Using a non-competitive gun for most people undercuts that drive. Shooting an occasional match for fun is great but, again, I don't think it takes you that far along the path of getting better.

This is exactly the point I make to people regarding classifiers. Compare apples to apples and get better without a vague fudge factor like adding xx seconds because I ran concealed. Get a reasonable competition gun. Glock with Timney trigger and flashlight is good enough to get reasonable data.

[ECK]

Normally I prefer direct-mill, but if LO becomes a thing I might go this route rather than mill my 9mm 2011 slide to see if I like it.

https://www.egwguns.com/trijicon-rmr-sro-holosun-407c-507c-mount-for-bomar

[YVK]

So, what's the optimal performance setup for a 9mm 2011?

[JCS]

Good podcast put out today by USPSA on some reasoning about why the proposals were written the way they were.

CO requires 500 guns to be on the approved gun list. A lot of 2011 Mfg don't have that for a single model. So that was part of the reasoning behind not just adding SAO guns to CO.

45% of new members last year shot CO.

It seems this is all member driven and the feedback will determine what happens with the rule proposals and division changes. Board says they constantly get requests about SAO slide ride guns so they are listening to the membership which is what people have been clamoring for online. People may not like it but if the majority of members vote for it... shouldn't the membership get to decide? Makes sense to me.

Also discussion on social media will have ZERO influence on their decision. They are basing it only off the voting member feedback through the survey and communication directly to the board.

[JCS]

So, what's the optimal performance setup for a 9mm 2011?

Now we're talking. Let the the initial rage pass over and start talking seriously.

I know it's not a Staccato but that's what I'll be shooting in it. In the 2011 game it's pretty much an entry level gun. The trigger is twice as heavy as my CO gun.

[JCS]

99316

23+1 of 9mm

I was already planning on shooting this gun this year in open minor with this setup. If the provisional division passes then I'll shoot LO. Either way I'm shooting this in USPSA.

[CleverNickname]

Now we're talking. Let the the initial rage pass over and start talking seriously.

I know it's not a Staccato but that's what I'll be shooting in it. In the 2011 game it's pretty much an entry level gun. The trigger is twice as heavy as my CO gun.
Wouldn't a Staccato XL (with a 2.5 lb factory trigger) be the better gamer gun?

[Jim Watson]

The trigger is twice as heavy as my CO gun.

That should be correctable, Iconic 1911 sear and all that guff.

Where will LO shooters come from? I can think of:
1. Limited shooters who put a dot on their existing gun. Helps dot vendors, no increase in attendance.
2. CO shooters who just KNOW a SAO will improve their scores. Helps gun and dot vendors, no increase in attendance.
Will anybody downconvert an Open gun?

3. Staccato and similar optic owners looking for something interesting to do.
3a. Staccato etc optic owners who say "I'd shoot comps if they would let me bring my gun."
Will increase attendance, if IF there are enough such owners whose egos can stand exposure to timer radiation.

[JCS]

Wouldn't a Staccato XL (with a 2.5 lb factory trigger) be the better gamer gun?

I bought mine before the LO thing was a reality knowing full well it's a duty style gun not a gamer gun. XL is a 5.5" barrel and not optic ready. You can get a Staccato P with a 2.5lb trigger from the factory but the wait is 3-4 months so I just bought from a dealer. Also I could do aftermarket and get it a much more gamer trigger if I want to. 5.5" barrel seemed too much for a slide ride gun.

[CleverNickname]

XL is a 5.5" barrel and not optic ready.

They have an optic ready option listed. (https://staccato2011.com/products/staccato-xl/?sku=11-1300-000000) Maybe it's a new thing?

[JCS]

That should be correctable, Iconic 1911 sear and all that guff.

Where will LO shooters come from? I can think of:
1. Limited shooters who put a dot on their existing gun. Helps dot vendors, no increase in attendance.
2. CO shooters who just KNOW a SAO will improve their scores. Helps gun and dot vendors, no increase in attendance.
Will anybody downconvert an Open gun?

3. Staccato and similar optic owners looking for something interesting to do.
3a. Staccato etc optic owners who say "I'd shoot comps if they would let me bring my gun."
Will increase attendance, if IF there are enough such owners whose egos can stand exposure to timer radiation.

Nighthawk is releasing a Staccato drop in trigger similar to this https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/drop-in-trigger-system-2534


I think LO will take from CO, Limited and Open. CO was already stealing from Open. I'd love to shoot open and CO was like a poor mans open. LO gets closer to open but still at a significant cost saving (guns but particularly ammo). I think it's a move mirroring the trends of the industry, like CO was. It's not necessarily about current members but the 4,000 new members every year who are buying what the industry is selling. And that seems to be trending towards optic guns for sure. Now it seems everyone is getting in on the SAO slide ride guns.

[JCS]

They have an optic ready option listed. (https://staccato2011.com/products/staccato-xl/?sku=11-1300-000000) Maybe it's a new thing?

Haha. Shows how little I know about them. Don't listen to me.

I still wouldn't want a 5.5' barrel. For that price I'd go with a Masterpiece arms DS9. Staccato P is a thousand less in price and it hurt to buy a gun that was that much lol

[feudist]

That should be correctable, Iconic 1911 sear and all that guff.

Where will LO shooters come from? I can think of:
1. Limited shooters who put a dot on their existing gun. Helps dot vendors, no increase in attendance.
2. CO shooters who just KNOW a SAO will improve their scores. Helps gun and dot vendors, no increase in attendance.
Will anybody downconvert an Open gun?

3. Staccato and similar optic owners looking for something interesting to do.
3a. Staccato etc optic owners who say "I'd shoot comps if they would let me bring my gun."
Will increase attendance, if IF there are enough such owners whose egos can stand exposure to timer radiation.

That is exactly the term!

Kryptonite to one's amour propre.

[Jim Watson]

I blame timer radiation for all therbligs, mechanical failure of gun, ammo, or range equipment, as well as mental failures of accuracy or execution.

[feudist]

I blame timer radiation for all therbligs, mechanical failure of gun, ammo, or range equipment, as well as mental failures of accuracy or execution.

Where are OSHA, EPA and the AEC?
What a scandal!

[Bucky]

I think LO will take from CO, Limited and Open. CO was already stealing from Open. I'd love to shoot open and CO was like a poor mans open. LO gets closer to open but still at a significant cost saving (guns but particularly ammo).

Currently, making ammo for open is slightly cheaper than ammo for my CO / would be LO gun, due to the compensator being optimal with lighter bullets, making it cheaper even when factoring in additional powder.

[Bucky]

2. CO shooters who just KNOW a SAO will improve their scores. Helps gun and dot vendors, no increase in attendance.
Will anybody downconvert an Open gun?
.

OR… Carry optic shooters who still get the willies every time they have to manually lower the hammer on a live round.

I’ve shot CO for a few years, but this year I shot it exclusively. Still not 100% comfortable lowering the hammer, though that may be a good thing.

[RJ]

Mods, I seems like I have not only lost ability to quote people but also tag them reliably, or edit my posts. Lemme know if this is a forum software, or something on my side.

I think it's some kind of semi-random bug in the forum software. I've not seen a resolution. It happens to me from time to time.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49390-My-quot-quot-(mention)-function-seems-to-be-broke

[Jim Watson]

Sign seen on FB

We do this not because it is easy, but because we thought it would be easy.

[JCS]

Currently, making ammo for open is slightly cheaper than ammo for my CO / would be LO gun, due to the compensator being optimal with lighter bullets, making it cheaper even when factoring in additional powder.

Generally speaking, 9 major is more expensive.

[GJM]

Generally speaking, 9 major is more expensive.

Yes, to buy or load. I am using small rifle primers, Montana Gold bullets and a LOT of powder in my 9 major loads. Eley 38 Super Comp loaded ammo is cheaper to buy than Everglades 9 major.

[Bucky]

Generally speaking, 9 major is more expensive.


Yes, to buy or load. I am using small rifle primers, Montana Gold bullets and a LOT of powder in my 9 major loads. Eley 38 Super Comp loaded ammo is cheaper to buy than Everglades 9 major.

Not in my experience, but I guess it comes down to YMMV.

[texag]

I've read this thread and the one on brian enos (much more vitriol there) as the exact person who's interested in this division. I have a Staccato P, and was planning to just shoot open and try to compare myself against CO shooters, but this will be nice if it comes to fruition. I have fond memories of shooting a few matches in production with a mostly stock G34 10 years ago before my just-out-of-college income slapped me in the face.

The Enos whiners are mostly right about me, i'll probably shoot 2 or 3 matches a year knowing that I will see shooters that are outperforming me by wide margins with supposedly inferior guns, and the call of dirt biking and mountain biking are too strong for me to get very dedicated, but who knows.....

[ECK]

Listened to this podcast today driving home from a match. It’s worth the time. DNROI, ADNROIs and DEM provide some context behind the recent rule change proposals and proposed equipment changes in Prod, L-10, and Ltd-Ops.

https://nroi.org/nroi-podcast/

[Archer1440]

A 2011 is not the only option for this sort of thing. It would give me an excuse to have this thing see light of day for the first time in a very long time.

[JCN]

Got an email today that Laugo is opening US production and service of the pistol…

That is going to be very popular for LO I think once word gets out.

Hopefully Laugo will make 140mm extensions. The aftermarket has been very slow to make them.

[texag]

Got an email today that Laugo is opening US production and service of the pistol…

That is going to be very popular for LO I think once word gets out.

Hopefully Laugo will make 140mm extensions. The aftermarket has been very slow to make them.

You're clearly just buying skill, I'd win if I had that gun!

[JCN]

You're clearly just buying skill, I'd win if I had that gun!

I make the joke that you CAN buy performance but you can’t buy skill.

If you have skill and money… why not buy performance? :D

It’s like the JP5… it’s so much easier to shoot than anything else except an MPX, but without the cleaning hassles.

Why wouldn’t someone run one, especially if the top guys have already been running the prototypes for years!

[YVK]

Yet again, the normal quote function is not working for me



That is going to be very popular for LO I think once word gets out.

Hopefully Laugo will make 140mm extensions. The aftermarket has been very slow to make them.


Unless the BOD allows frame mounted option for LO, what's the appeal of running a relatively unproven gun that tends to overheat and doesn't drop mags well with selected loads? I am reasonably interested in full kit but not nearly as much in Retro. Absence of 140 mags is as annoying as curious, as in to "why".

[JCS]

99490

I can see LO being #4-#5 after its first year and being second overall in a few years since over 40% of limited competitors shoot minor already and CO is a giant division.

[jbrimlow]

Absence of 140 mags is as annoying as curious, as in to "why".

Lurked a bunch in an FB group for the Laugo when I thought about buying one. Lots of talk about mag extension problems. The big ones were (in no particular order)

--figuring out how to attach the mag extension so that the bullets stayed stacked correctly. Apparently there's some binding in the transition area.
--figuring out enough spring pressure to present bullets fast enough. The light slide moves really quick and makes this difficult.

I see some people with extensions, so maybe there's some kind of weird recipe out there, but I'd guess it requires tweaking.

Between that and the heat, I'll stick in 2011-land, personally.

[GJM]

99490

I can see LO being #4-#5 after its first year and being second overall in a few years since over 40% of limited competitors shoot minor already and CO is a giant division.

It is very interesting that four divisions -- production, revolver, single stack, and limited 10 represent such a small percentage of overall activity.

[JCN]

Yet again, the normal quote function is not working for me





Unless the BOD allows frame mounted option for LO, what's the appeal of running a relatively unproven gun that tends to overheat and doesn't drop mags well with selected loads? I am reasonably interested in full kit but not nearly as much in Retro. Absence of 140 mags is as annoying as curious, as in to "why".




Sorry, you didn’t tag me so I didn’t know you were asking.

This would be just the Retro.

If you haven’t tried it, you don’t know what you’re missing.

Fixed barrel matters.

It’s been campaigned pretty well overseas in IPSC.

It’s a European gun and the European market doesn’t have the need for crazy mag caps that we have in the states.

99493

Heat won’t bother the serious shooters at matches. One stage in 30 minutes will be fine.

If practicing with it, I’d do like I do with suppressors. I have a cooling dunk bucket.

It’s not the proof… it’s the proof of concept.

It’s a far better shooting gun than any tilting barrel.

[YVK]

Sorry, you didn’t tag me so I didn’t know you were asking.

This would be just the Retro.



I wasn't sure if my tag function was working. I am glad to see my quote function return back.

I've some experience with fixed barrels on a P7M8. Interesting that you feel that this bit makes such difference. I didn't find the P7 that special in shooting department. I was more focused on the optic attachment method more than anything else when I was researching the Alien.

I'll wait to see what BOD releases at the end of a month. Weak hope on attachment method and weak uncertainty about power factor are holding me from commissioning a 2011.

[YVK]

99490

I can see LO being #4-#5 after its first year and being second overall in a few years since over 40% of limited competitors shoot minor already and CO is a giant division.


It is very interesting that four divisions -- production, revolver, single stack, and limited 10 represent such a small percentage of overall activity.

Does anyone know in what units the "activity" is measured?

[JCS]

Does anyone know in what units the "activity" is measured?

Not sure, that one was from USPSA. Here's another one broken down by unique shooters who have shot at least one classifier. https://www.reddit.com/r/USPSA/comments/xde0si/comment/ioac8m6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[JCN]

I wasn't sure if my tag function was working. I am glad to see my quote function return back.

I've some experience with fixed barrels on a P7M8. Interesting that you feel that this bit makes such difference. I didn't find the P7 that special in shooting department. I was more focused on the optic attachment method more than anything else when I was researching the Alien.

I'll wait to see what BOD releases at the end of a month. Weak hope on attachment method and weak uncertainty about power factor are holding me from commissioning a 2011.

Perhaps it’s the fixed barrel along with the super low bore axis in relation to the hands that makes such a difference in the Alien?

This is what we’re talking about compared to a Shadow 2.

99498

Waaaay less torque arm / fulcrum for recoil impulse.

It goes more straight back than up for the recoil.

With a compensator doesn’t really matter… but for uncompensated LO… it’s going to be a monster.

No safety on a draw, either.

[YVK]

Not sure, that one was from USPSA. Here's another one broken down by unique shooters who have shot at least one classifier. https://www.reddit.com/r/USPSA/comments/xde0si/comment/ioac8m6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Reason I asked was because generally every match has a breakdown of how many people signed in each division. Seems like an easier metric to understand than "activity". To me it looks like a multiplication of "people signed in each division" x "matches they attended based on classifiers' results sent to USPSA". This may exaggerate the popularity numbers.

[GJM]

Here are some 2022 stats from area matches 1,2,3.

area 1 -- 388 shooters
CO 143
open 103
limited 52
PCC 48
SS 16
Prod 22
L10 4
Revo 0

area 2 -- 480 shooters
CO 147
open 138
limited 65
PCC 72
SS 31
Prod 21
L10 0
Revo 6

area 3 -- 352 shooters
CO 117
open 84
limited 71
PCC 36
SS 3
Prod 39
L10 0
Revo 2

[YVK]

Not exactly the same % as in that USPSA document.

[45dotACP]

Production showing some of the same numbers as single stack in some of those areas.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

[GJM]

Production showing some of the same numbers as single stack in some of those areas.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

In Area 3, iron sights seem more popular. Wonder if 2032 batteries are scarce there.

[bofe954]

In Area 3, iron sights seem more popular. Wonder if 2032 batteries are scarce there.

Not that I'm aware of. We have amazon like everyone else.

[Akimbo_sammiches]

Limited optics as proposed seems like it is meant to directly compete for participation against carry optics. It's pretty similar except for magwells and lasers(wtf?)
It seems like or is rumored that Staccato would be the biggest driver of the new division and have the most to gain. Don't we remember when Staccato was STI, and didn't they change name to get out of fixing guns under warranty supposedly due to major PF and end user modifications?
Looking at the Staccato website, they have comps magwells and 170mm mags just like open, but for minor PF right!?
Even then let's say you're the guy who buys an XC with a comp, but now can't play in LO and have to go to open minor.
I say go all out or don't go at all.

Allow SAO in carry optics but no magwells.
And take open division rules and copy paste into the rules of Limited Optics, but only allow minor scoring.

This allows carry optics to continue to thrive, and makes the new division compete for participation directly against open.
Also allowing current open major shooters to retune if necessary to shoot minor PF. Eventually open major goes away due to low participation and we have LO which is basically a competitive open minor division.

Thoughts?

[ECK]

Maybe this ought to be a thread of it’s own, but thinking about some of the exchanges I’ve had w/ cheby and YVK on this thread. I can get behind a division that is intended to be box stock, with minimal mods allowed, and even a weight limit to give the purists or newbs a place to compete where everyone’s gun should (key word, ‘should’) be on par.

This may just be a hypothetical exercise, but what should be the framework of such a division?
-Minor PF only or allow maj/minor
-A weight limit that pretty much biases polymer or at least an aluminum frame (i.e. 35 oz)
-Striker and DA/SA. No SAO allowed (damn, still no love for my Browning HP)
-Gun must be on an approved list
-No magwell, no thumb rest, no after-market external parts
-Minimum trigger pull weight (i.e. 3 lbs if striker, 6 lbs if DA)
-10 rnd, or 15, or allow factory mag length
-must fit in Prod/SS box (using this one since it already exists) or the IDPA box
-Sights may be changed, but the only slide milling allowed is to accommodate iron sights (i.e. a bomar or LPA adjustable)
-No slide porting, chuck ports, or whatever Sig is calling their slide cuts (aka SpectorComp or Macro)

However, what I’d be curious about is how long newbs stay in that division once they see what everyone else is shooting in the other divisions, or how many current shooters would consistently shoot their stock-ish lite-ish weight gun to keep it from becoming another low-attendance division. And how to keep this division from getting gamed like gamers are wont to do….or some OFM from coming out with a gun that fits all the above criteria but is a better (and probably more $$$) mousetrap like JCN’s Largo Alien

I saw a quote on the Enos Limited Optics thread that resonated with me: “the game evolves the market and the market evolves the game. It will never stay the same game. They are a codependent system.”

[WDR]

Maybe all sport shooting should follow the GJM 50 Friends/ NASCAR model...

Everyone gets a Holosun'd Glock 19. May the odds be ever... in your favor. :D

[ECK]

Maybe all sport shooting should follow the GJM 50 Friends/ NASCAR model...

Everyone gets a Holosun'd Glock 19. May the odds be ever... in your favor. :D

That makes enforcement easy!

G19? Yep, check box.
HS red dot? Yep, check box.

[JCN]

That makes enforcement easy!

G19? Yep, check box.
HS red dot? Yep, check box.

Not really. With tin snips and a Dremel I can drastically change the trigger weight and feel of a “stock” G19 and you’d be hard pressed to tell it from a well worn model.

That’s always been the issue. Stock is not stock. Well worn is different than brand new.

Whatever division you propose, it has to be popular or else it has no point really.

I’m not looking to shoot my carry gun at matches. Or to train extensively with my carry gun.

By having a heavy gun that doesn’t beat me up shooting thousands of rounds, I have improved so much that I can shoot my carry gun very well without having to just spend time on it.

It’s actually better training to have a heavier slower slide gun to learn your sight tracking and timing and take that to a faster, lighter, harder to time carry gun.

If people really liked stock-ish guns with low cap, IDPA would be way more popular than it is, no?

[JCN]

Not exactly the same % as in that USPSA document.

Area matches likely over represent the more serious competitor and not the majority of the people who are new and casual… with those new and casual still accounting for the most $$$ in membership. Many of those people won’t travel out of state for an Area match.

[cheby]

Maybe this ought to be a thread of it’s own, but thinking about some of the exchanges I’ve had w/ cheby and YVK on this thread. I can get behind a division that is intended to be box stock, with minimal mods allowed, and even a weight limit to give the purists or newbs a place to compete where everyone’s gun should (key word, ‘should’) be on par.

This may just be a hypothetical exercise, but what should be the framework of such a division?
-Minor PF only or allow maj/minor
-A weight limit that pretty much biases polymer or at least an aluminum frame (i.e. 35 oz)
-Striker and DA/SA. No SAO allowed (damn, still no love for my Browning HP)
-Gun must be on an approved list
-No magwell, no thumb rest, no after-market external parts
-Minimum trigger pull weight (i.e. 3 lbs if striker, 6 lbs if DA)
-10 rnd, or 15, or allow factory mag length
-must fit in Prod/SS box (using this one since it already exists) or the IDPA box
-Sights may be changed, but the only slide milling allowed is to accommodate iron sights (i.e. a bomar or LPA adjustable)
-No slide porting, chuck ports, or whatever Sig is calling their slide cuts (aka SpectorComp or Macro)

However, what I’d be curious about is how long newbs stay in that division once they see what everyone else is shooting in the other divisions, or how many current shooters would consistently shoot their stock-ish lite-ish weight gun to keep it from becoming another low-attendance division. And how to keep this division from getting gamed like gamers are wont to do….or some OFM from coming out with a gun that fits all the above criteria but is a better (and probably more $$$) mousetrap like JCN’s Largo Alien

I saw a quote on the Enos Limited Optics thread that resonated with me: “the game evolves the market and the market evolves the game. It will never stay the same game. They are a codependent system.”

Here are a couple quotes that would express my opinion better and faster then I can:

This one is from brianenoes:

"Allow magwells and SAO in to Carry Optics.
Rename the division to Limited Optics - The name Carry Optics was set when it was for polymer guns, the name is now ridiculous and does not reflect what the division is.
Return Production back to its roots, same rules as IPSC (15 rounds)
Create Production Optics, same as IPSC (15 rounds)
Abolish L10"

And this one from Rob Leatham that I already posted in the different thread:

"SS division is now the lightest weight limit and most compact division which is silly.
We no longer have a practical division.
The 125 PF thing is a holdover from a time when we wanted .38 special revolvers of questionable strength to be able to make minor.
I still believe in power in the real world.

The problem is if we now consider the 9x19 round to be the standard and sufficient it should be at a power level commonly encountered. Which is not 125. 125 is silly.
I’d be on board with a single PF if it were relative to the ammo used for duty or defense. 140-150 is more appropriate.
However as we turn the sport more and more into a video game rather than a martial skills training and testing ground, I’m sure the masses will feel different.
There are those that think we should shoot 22LR"

In general, the purpose of competition should be comparison of skills, not pleasing majority. IMHO.

[ECK]

In general, the purpose of competition should be comparison of skills, not pleasing majority. IMHO.

I agree to a certain extent, but we still need to attract people to the sport. Customers are gonna vote by showing up/not showing up, or by their registration choice.

[ECK]

"Allow magwells and SAO in to Carry Optics.
Rename the division to Limited Optics - The name Carry Optics was set when it was for polymer guns, the name is now ridiculous and does not reflect what the division is.
Return Production back to its roots, same rules as IPSC (15 rounds)
Create Production Optics, same as IPSC (15 rounds)
Abolish L10"



I did see that one from Enos. It is radical I grant you that but I could support that one as well. Only difficulty is putting the genie back in the bottle with regard to going back to Production circa year 2000. And pulling the 141.25mm mags from the cold dead hands of all the CO shooters (yeah, go shoot your big mag in LOCO division…).

Only issue I have is why bag on L-10? Why do we need to eliminate a division? I don’t shoot it very much if at all, but it doesn’t bother me if other people want to shoot it.

[cheby]

I agree to a certain extent, but we still need to attract people to the sport. Customers are gonna vote by showing up/not showing up, or by their registration choice.

Yes, I agree. But here is another side of this: USPSA shooters are a super tiny minority in the shooting world. A fraction of a percent. There are many reasons why people do not shoot our competition. "Race" guns is definitely one of them. Limited Optics is not going to bring more people to the sport. I am guessing a majority of LO shooters will come from Open and CO. Similarly PCC did not bring too many new shooters either. It is always the same people with new toys.

[cheby]

Only issue I have is why bag on L-10? Why do we need to eliminate a division? I don’t shoot it very much if at all, but it doesn’t bother me if other people want to shoot it.

The only argument to kill L10 is to reduce a number of the divisions. There is a concern that too many divisions dilute the competition. I personally do not want to kill L10 because of a growing number of states with the mags restriction. For that reason, I would not mind Production 10 either.

[ECK]

And this one from Rob Leatham that I already posted in the different thread:

"SS division is now the lightest weight limit and most compact division which is silly.
We no longer have a practical division.
The 125 PF thing is a holdover from a time when we wanted .38 special revolvers of questionable strength to be able to make minor.
I still believe in power in the real world.

The problem is if we now consider the 9x19 round to be the standard and sufficient it should be at a power level commonly encountered. Which is not 125. 125 is silly.
I’d be on board with a single PF if it were relative to the ammo used for duty or defense. 140-150 is more appropriate.
However as we turn the sport more and more into a video game rather than a martial skills training and testing ground, I’m sure the masses will feel different.
There are those that think we should shoot 22LR"


I saw that one as well. Thought provoking comments from TGO for sure. But you left out the best part where he was hating on Strader.

I predominantly shoot my own reloads and haven’t purchased factory ammo in quite some time. I also haven’t tested very much factory ammo over a chrono, but how much of the common off-the-shelf factory ammo makes 140-150 PF, or will it turn into a reloader’s game if minor PF got bumped up?

I’m hearing a lot of factory ammo (not self-defense or NATO) is 130-135 range.

[cheby]

I saw that one as well. Thought provoking comments from TGO for sure. But you left out the best part where he was hating on Strader.

I predominantly shoot my own reloads and haven’t purchased factory ammo in quite some time. I also haven’t tested very much factory ammo over a chrono, but how much of the common off-the-shelf factory ammo makes 140-150 PF, or will it turn into a reloader’s game if minor PF got bumped up?

I’m hearing a lot of factory ammo (not self-defense or NATO) is 130-135 range.

No factory practice ammo is around 150PF. So let's keep major and minor PF which are emphasizing different and useful skills. I guess that was the point

[ECK]

Yes, I agree. But here is another side of this: USPSA shooters are a super tiny minority in the shooting world. A fraction of a percent. There are many reasons why people do not shoot our competition. "Race" guns is definitely one of them. Limited Optics is not going to bring more people to the sport. I am guessing a majority of LO shooters will come from Open and CO. Similarly PCC did not bring too many new shooters either. It is always the same people with new toys.

Agree again for the most part, but I’m also going off what I’ve seen at my local club: I’ve seen about 10 new shooters show up in 2022 with a tricked out Glock (or similar striker gun), RMR, and X300. Not sure where they are coming from but some are showing up wearing a fully kitted out war-belt, others are carrying AIWB. They are fitting into CO right off the bat, they even have extended mags. So it’s been a while since we’ve had to put a new guy who bought his brand new M&P Pro w/ only 3 mags into Limited-minor instead of Prod. Quite a few of these new shooters are actually decent shots, and with a little lesson in stage planning they are doing quite well. Far cry from the newb who would get crushed and finish last for the first 5-6 matches they attend.

[JCS]

Phil Strader had an interesting open letter to USPSA that he posted and sent to the BOD. A snippet,
"The key to new membership and growth is to piss off a small number of existing members (like me). Here are my suggestions to recalibrate USPSA and to make it accommodating and less confusing for more new shooters:
OPEN
- Keep as-is. I would normally suggest making this minor only, but that wouldn’t be necessary if the other changes below are met.
LIMITED
- Keep as-is, but make it minor only. Production shooters who want higher capacity could compete here without dealing with 40SW.
OPTICS
- Carry Optics as is, but allow magwells and Allow single-action pistols. I was initially against this, but the SAO advantage is so minimal, that it wouldn’t make a difference…as Nils, Bob Vogel, Luke Cao, Mason Lane, and others will prove.
CLASSIC
- 45oz weight limit. Production, Single Stack, and Revolvers allowed. Magwells allowed for single stack only. Minor - 10rd mags. Major - 8rd mags. All revolvers scored as MAJOR even with 125PF. "

[JCN]

ECK
cheby

One thing to note that if you want to keep 3” barrel guns as viable for people shooting carry guns you have to consider that in power factor.

I had to shoot Lawman to make even 125 power factor out of a P365.

I think production optics and LOCO are great ideas.

[ECK]

The only argument to kill L10 is to reduce a number of the divisions. There is a concern that too many divisions dilute the competition. I personally do not want to kill L10 because of a growing number of states with the mags restriction. For that reason, I would not mind Production 10 either.

Hell Steel Chalenge has 13 divisions (14 if LO becomes a thing). USPSA has some catching up to do with only 8, soon maybe 9.

I get the argument of diluting the competition, but is a person hiding out in L10 with hopes of winning their class or division really considered heat even if they shot in fullsize Limited?

Let people shoot what they want, including fancy-tricked out Production, or a box-stock Production. Just as long as they come shoot matches. More people shooting means more 2A proponents.

[cheby]

Phil Strader had an interesting open letter to USPSA that he posted and sent to the BOD. A snippet,
"The key to new membership and growth is to piss off a small number of existing members (like me). Here are my suggestions to recalibrate USPSA and to make it accommodating and less confusing for more new shooters:
OPEN
- Keep as-is. I would normally suggest making this minor only, but that wouldn’t be necessary if the other changes below are met.
LIMITED
- Keep as-is, but make it minor only. Production shooters who want higher capacity could compete here without dealing with 40SW.
OPTICS
- Carry Optics as is, but allow magwells and Allow single-action pistols. I was initially against this, but the SAO advantage is so minimal, that it wouldn’t make a difference…as Nils, Bob Vogel, Luke Cao, Mason Lane, and others will prove.
CLASSIC
- 45oz weight limit. Production, Single Stack, and Revolvers allowed. Magwells allowed for single stack only. Minor - 10rd mags. Major - 8rd mags. All revolvers scored as MAJOR even with 125PF. "

That quote from TGO that I posted earlier was his reply to that post from Phil. There are more to it that I omitted to keep the discussion focused. Besides.... Phil is there to sell guns, IMHO

[JCS]

The only argument to kill L10 is to reduce a number of the divisions. There is a concern that too many divisions dilute the competition. I personally do not want to kill L10 because of a growing number of states with the mags restriction. For that reason, I would not mind Production 10 either.

There are provisions in the rules for states with bans. I say throw L10, single stack, revolver and production 10 all into one division if they want low cap divisions. Personally, I'll never shoot a low cap division again and I think that's why CO is so popular. You get dots and you only have to reload one time max per stage. It simplifies the game. You just get to shoot and don't have to strategize where to reload or come up with wonky plans to avoid a standing reload while everyone else is running around with extendo mags lol

[GJM]

All these possibilities are starting to give me a headache. Seems about as complicated as re-writing the federal tax code. Strader's proposal makes sense to me..

[cheby]

There are provisions in the rules for states with bans. I say throw L10, single stack, revolver and production 10 all into one division if they want low cap divisions. Personally, I'll never shoot a low cap division again and I think that's why CO is so popular. You get dots and you only have to reload one time max per stage. It simplifies the game. You just get to shoot and don't have to strategize where to reload or come up with wonky plans to avoid a standing reload while everyone else is running around with extendo mags lol

I am a minority here, I suppose. To me, the capacity has no affect on the fundamental shooting skills and performance. Regardless of the capacity, it is still about trigger control, recoil management, and target transition for the most part. This is 90% of the final score. I get it, hi-cap is more fun, but in terms of competition of the shooting skills it is irrelevant assuming that everyone has the same capacity within the division.

In regard to the states with bans - yes there are provisions in the rules but there are issues as well - for example, how to administrate the classification system properly?

[cheby]

All these possibilities are starting to give me a headache. Seems about as complicated as re-writing the federal tax code. Strader's proposal makes sense to me..

I am really not sure that simplification should be a goal here. Again, the goal is competition of skills, not pleasing majority. In my lonely opinion...

[JCS]

I am a minority here, I suppose. To me, the capacity has no affect on the fundamental shooting skills and performance. Regardless of the capacity, it is still about trigger control, recoil management, and target transition for the most part. This is 90% of the final score. I get it, hi-cap is more fun, but in terms of competition of the shooting skills it is irrelevant.

In regard to the states with bans - yes there are provisions in the rules but there are issues as well - for example, how to administrate the classification system properly?

Good point about the classifications.
I don't even know how many states have a true 10-round ban and how many competitors it affects. I don't think we should cater the sport or division to a small subset of people who have mag bans in their states. Ya it sucks big time for them no doubt. Imagine being in Canada where they banned the sale and import of all handguns.... They even shoot open with 10 rounds. We don't know how good we have it here even with the restrictions we do have.

[YVK]

All these possibilities are starting to give me a headache

The more this is going on, the less interested I'm getting in this new division. While the initial news release triggered me to talk to two 2011 shops, right now I don't even feel like buying new sets of grips so I could install a magwell, assuming this limop will be what everyone is predicting.

[JCN]

The more this is going on, the less interested I'm getting in this new division. While the initial news release triggered me to talk to two 2011 shops, right now I don't even feel like buying new sets of grips so I could install a magwell, assuming this limop will be what everyone is predicting.

I shot my LO TSO today… and realized I have so much trigger time on Shadows that I would have to train up to match my current performance.

Sometimes good enough is good enough.

[cheby]

I shot my LO TSO today… and realized I have so much trigger time on Shadows that I would have to train up to match my current performance.

Sometimes good enough is good enough.

this is how feel these days switching between different guns/division. Sometimes it is a good thing to do

[ECK]

ECK
cheby

One thing to note that if you want to keep 3” barrel guns as viable for people shooting carry guns you have to consider that in power factor.

I had to shoot Lawman to make even 125 power factor out of a P365.

I think production optics and LOCO are great ideas.

I suspect that’s probably why IDPA has a different PF for some of their divisions like BUG.

But I think even the idea of shooting your carry gun is not viable in IDPA if you want to be competitive against real heat. That ship probably sailed soon after they first started.

[ECK]

If people really liked stock-ish guns with low cap, IDPA would be way more popular than it is, no?

I just snorted up some water!

Where I live there are three clubs within an hours drive that offer USPSA, but only one that does IDPA. The IDPA turn out is lower than the USPSA, though frankly I’m not sure why since the one club actually puts on decent stages. But looking at the guns, other than factory length mags, not much difference from what you would see in CO and Prod at a USPSA match. Most, if not all, are full size and have been modified to some extent. Very few actual carry guns except for guys like me that use IDPA as ‘practice’ for carry guns.

Oh, and the vests. Can’t forget the vests.

[Bucky]

If people really liked stock-ish guns with low cap, IDPA would be way more popular than it is, no?

NO. IDPA isn’t an action shooting sport anymore. Its ruleset is the problem.



I’m hearing a lot of factory ammo (not self-defense or NATO) is 130-135 range.

That would be more accurate. Some 115 stuff struggles to make current minor PF.


There are provisions in the rules for states with bans…

Except, that doesn’t account for someone living in a 10 round state, wanting to shoot a sectional or area match in a neighboring state.

[Bucky]

Some additional random thoughts….

1. Strictly speaking guns (Magazines an PF aside), how much different is the new LO division going to be from open? Comps and slide vs frame mounted optics? Many don’t consider the latter to be a significant advantage, and maybe the former could be offset with a power factor consideration.

2. If we merge CO and LO, why do we have to allow mag wells (as has been suggested)?

3. Are we at the point we should let DA, SA, and striker fired pistols all run together? I’ve made the analogy upstream about Autocross having an excessive number of “divisions”, but ironically I don’t think any are divided on transmission, be it manual, auto, dual clutch,CVT, etc.

[JCN]

Bucky
ECK
cheby

I think there are philosophical considerations and logistical considerations. They can conflict with each other.

CO is the largest division and growing steadily. If it’s 50% now and if it’s going to be 60-75% of all entrants in the next 5 years…

Do you want to add popularity to it by adding more types of guns?

Or do you make a semi-arbitrary split?

That’s my reasoning for making a separate LO division from CO.

So that in 5 years instead of mega-CO being 75% of all entrants, it’s split 40-35.

I guess that begs the question of whether mega CO is a bad thing.

Locally probably not a problem. But trying to get Nationals spots will be a mess.

[Bucky]

CO is the largest division and growing steadily. If it’s 50% now and if it’s going to be 60-75% of all entrants in the next 5 years…


If all things stay as they are, I don't think it would quite spike that much. We are still in the honeymoon period. I remember when Limited became more popular than open, and when there was a huge spike in production for a while. CO probably took the wind out of production, and to be honest I'll bet capacity has as much to do with it as the optic (or it did at first).

On a side note, I find it ironic that they had to MANDATE the optic in carry optics. I know some were having fun shooting their production guns in CO just so they run higher capacity magazines. IF the optic is such the advantage (not saying it isn't), then why mandate it?

[YVK]

CO is the largest division and growing steadily. If it’s 50% now and if it’s going to be 60-75% of all entrants in the next 5 years…



By USPSA's assessment, using a metric that we don't really know what it is, it is 38%. By other metrics like GJM used, with their own limitations, it is more like 33%. People keep attributing its popularity to dots while I know folks who went there because high cap minor pf guns are competitive there.
I wouldn't make any predictions in regard to the projected CO growth if 141mm Production mags were going to happen. If that were to happen, we definitely will see much less of Limited Minor and we may see slower CO growth.

Now, this is a useless exercise anyway because BOD will not merge CO and LO. Had they intended to, the presented rules changes would've had a proposal to redo CO, not create a new division.

A separate observation in regards to the Nationals or other big matches. It would make an intuitive sense to run CO and LO concurrently. If the best talent is competing for a placement in the national team and a shot at the world crown, why would they choose to shoot LO?

[JCN]

I don't think it would quite spike that much. We are still in the honeymoon period. I remember when Limited became more popular than open, and when there was a huge spike in production for a while. CO probably took the wind out of production, and to be honest I'll bet capacity has as much to do with it as the optic (or it did at first).

I think we are in an evolution of firearms though and this is a different situation.

With RDS on pistols getting more and more mainstream, it’s going to grow. Not just because it’s cool, but because there is a real training advantage to dots.

With LEO being issued dot guns, it’s going to become the defacto standard and in 5-10 years it’ll inevitably be more and more popular.

Ironically optics on Revo might actually help that division more than anything else. It’s just a screw on adapter plate for most N frames and easy peasy mounting.

[JCN]

By USPSA's assessment, using a metric that we don't really know what it is, it is 38%. By other metrics like GJM used, with their own limitations, it is more like 33%. People keep attributing its popularity to dots while I know folks who went there because high cap minor pf guns are competitive there.
I wouldn't make any predictions in regard to the projected CO growth if 141mm Production mags were going to happen. If that were to happen, we definitely will see much less of Limited Minor and we may see slower CO growth.

The key metric that is in the published data is not the current participation…

IT’S HOW MANY NEW ENTRANTS STARTED IN CO. That number is over 50% and as we know the average life cycle of a casual competitor is short, that’s what’s going to drive the growth as the older iron people fade away and more and more people start with dot guns.

At our locals, 90% of people are new within 5 years.

[Jim Watson]

CO is the largest division and growing steadily. If it’s 50% now and if it’s going to be 60-75% of all entrants in the next 5 years…

Do you want to add popularity to it by adding more types of guns?

Or do you make a semi-arbitrary split?

That’s my reasoning for making a separate LO division from CO.

So that in 5 years instead of mega-CO being 75% of all entrants, it’s split 40-35.

More prizes?

[JCS]

I like the idea proposed by Phil Strader on the humblemarksmen video. Put together a committee to create a simplified ruleset that will match where the industry is going in the next 5-10 years. Have the committee look at it for a year and then say in 2025-2026 these will be the divisions. .40 cal is dead. Sig doesn't even make a .40 model anymore. Making drastic changes to the rules is going to piss people off. But if you give them 2-3 years to make the changes in their own gear setup it's not as bad. There will be some disruption but it is necessary for the long term health of the org. Half the membership will turn over in 5 years anyways. The sport has turned all divisions into gamer guns. They should embrace it IMO.

[JCS]

Except, that doesn’t account for someone living in a 10 round state, wanting to shoot a sectional or area match in a neighboring state.

How many shooters is that? The membership total is over 30,000. It sucks for those people in ban states but why have a division to cater to 1-2% of the membership (if that's what it is)? I heard someone from California discussing how the # of people shooting hi cap vs low cap in California USPSA matches was 4-1. It's anecdotal, but I'm genuinely curious how many people shooting USPSA are hardline 10 rd mag shooters.

From this link the only ones with a 100% 10 round pistol mag ban are: DC, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island. The others allow them with various exceptions.
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/large-capacity-magazines/

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just a thought, if Scotus wipes out mag bans, what does that do all the mag discussions and rules for both major games. Except for old fart 1911 shooters, hang a 2000 round mag out of the well?

[Jim Watson]

If SCOTUS wipes out magazine bans, NASA will provide a design for a flush magazine holding 100 rounds in the fourth spatial dimension. The first about as likely as the second.

[Bucky]

How many shooters is that? The membership total is over 30,000. It sucks for those people in ban states but why have a division to cater to 1-2% of the membership (if that's what it is)? I heard someone from California discussing how the # of people shooting hi cap vs low cap in California USPSA matches was 4-1. It's anecdotal, but I'm genuinely curious how many people shooting USPSA are hardline 10 rd mag shooters.

From this link the only ones with a 100% 10 round pistol mag ban are: DC, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island. The others allow them with various exceptions.
https://giffords.org/lawcenter/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/large-capacity-magazines/

Even with your sampling of the strictest magazine bans, that's 5/51 states / DC, or close to 10% of the membership. Of course, DC doesn't have a ton of shooters, but New York and New Jersey certainly do.

Let's add the grey states to the list, Washington, Vermont, Massachusetts, Maryland, and Colorado (with 15 at the moment), and then 1-2% is even more off the actual numbers.

[JCN]

YVK I had the numbers off a little.

Here is 2021

99626

And then 2022

99627

If you’re talking about NEW SHOOTERS, there’s also a good percent extra that are Open by virtue of a magwell or a Staccato SAO or something.

So that percent is likely underrepresented and will jump immediately if LO goes to CO.

That growth will continue as dot carry guns become more prevalent and factory accessible.

The Area Match results will be the most lagged behind because it’s the most established shooters.

Local matches are most representative, but the USPSA data is probably the best aggregate.

[ECK]

Some additional random thoughts….

1. Strictly speaking guns (Magazines an PF aside), how much different is the new LO division going to be from open? Comps and slide vs frame mounted optics? Many don’t consider the latter to be a significant advantage, and maybe the former could be offset with a power factor consideration.

2. If we merge CO and LO, why do we have to allow mag wells (as has been suggested)?

3. Are we at the point we should let DA, SA, and striker fired pistols all run together? I’ve made the analogy upstream about Autocross having an excessive number of “divisions”, but ironically I don’t think any are divided on transmission, be it manual, auto, dual clutch,CVT, etc.

1. If the provisional LO remains as minor PF only, then I think the major PF scoring in Open will still be the key difference, and the comp goes hand-in-hand with major PF. I don’t have a lot of time shooting an Open gun (or frame mounted optic) but I can tell a distinct difference/advantage with a dot that is not reciprocating with the slide and the comp really helped keep the dot on target. I’ve also shot some compensated Staccatos (can’t recall the model name) but I was amazed how effective the comp was even with minor PF ammo. Bill drills on a 10” plate were noticeably easier than an uncompensated gun.

2. If they do allow SAO into CO, my hope is they stick with the CO equipment rules/restrictions and do not allow magwells, slide rackers, or race holsters.

3. I would prefer to see SAO be kept separate from CO, but that is just me. I agree tho, that as proposed the provisional LO division is going to be fairly similar to CO and we’ll probably see a bunch of CO shooters moving between the two divisions depending on where the heat is (or isn’t for the hiders) or what their buddies are doing. I haven’t decided what I am going to do if LO becomes a provisional division, but I do own a 9mm STI 2011 and I’m only a $50 EGW mounting away from being able to add a red dot to it and be LO legal. Or I may shoot my current CO gun in LO just to try it out.

[ECK]

Bucky
ECK
cheby

I think there are philosophical considerations and logistical considerations. They can conflict with each other.

CO is the largest division and growing steadily. If it’s 50% now and if it’s going to be 60-75% of all entrants in the next 5 years…

Do you want to add popularity to it by adding more types of guns?

Or do you make a semi-arbitrary split?

That’s my reasoning for making a separate LO division from CO.

So that in 5 years instead of mega-CO being 75% of all entrants, it’s split 40-35.

I guess that begs the question of whether mega CO is a bad thing.

Locally probably not a problem. But trying to get Nationals spots will be a mess.

+1. I think CO already checks a lot of boxes for people, with a wide range of guns and options for people already. Allowing SAO guns into that division is going to make an already attractive division even more attractive. But adding LO as a stand-alone division, I believe, will have an effect of drawing people from other divisions (CO, Limited, and Open).

But I am also asking myself the same question about whether a mega division is a good thing or bad, and came to the same conclusion that it’s a non-factor at locals, but does unbalance the apple cart at the National level.

[ECK]

People keep attributing its popularity to dots while I know folks who went there because high cap minor pf guns are competitive there.
I wouldn't make any predictions in regard to the projected CO growth if 141mm Production mags were going to happen. If that were to happen, we definitely will see much less of Limited Minor and we may see slower CO growth.


I think it is both, more and more people like shooting dots and a lot of people like hicap more than they like low-cap. Plus the ammo costs and availability is easier to come by then Limited where .40 is turning into a reloaders game, and Open always has been. In addition to actual preference, there’s people like me that as we age our up-close vision goes south. I suspect had my eyesight remained good I would have stayed in one of the iron sight divisions or at least shoot them more than I do the division where optics are allowed.

I agree that if Prod’s capacity is increased (but it won’t be until Jan 31, 2024 per 16.2 in the bylaws) it will pull people away from Limited-minor at their local matches, and possibly some people who migrated to CO for the higher capacity will also shoot Prod more -maybe.

[Bucky]

2. If they do allow SAO into CO, my hope is they stick with the CO equipment rules/restrictions and do not allow magwells, slide rackers, or race holsters.


Agree. As for holsters, I don’t see a race holster offering much these days outside of open or revolver. Perhaps limited 6” guns.

[feudist]

TL;DR: The original premises of different divisions have been mooted by the evolution of the sport, technology and the shooting public's preferences.

Maybe it's time to rethink what led to the original creation of separate divisions in the first place.
IPSC/USPSA was founded on the idea that the major caliber single action Service Pistol-essentially the 1911 in .45- was the best defensive pistol option.

As competition heated up and evolved, the .38 Super gave the advantage of extra capacity(the original Martial Artist/Gamer split), and then in rapid succession came comps, optics and wide body high capacity.
At that point, what is now considered an Open gun clearly overmatched an iron sighted .45 in every way as a race gun while having almost no utility as a carry gun. This led to the original and traumatic Equipment Race, likened in memory to the Nuclear Arms Race. Hence the Limited/Open split. And then IDPA.
Fast forward 3 decades and competitors have learned to shoot TDA and striker guns at the highest levels, high capacity has come to pocket pistols, optics are practical and becoming commonplace, and it's a 9mm world in defensive shooting.
Quite a few shooters tote defensive pistols that are Open guns in all but name.
The question is this: Of all the various attributes of a "Race" pistol which give a lopsided "Competitive Advantage"?
Major?
Optics?
Comps?
High capacity?
Very light single action triggers?
50 ounce weight?

It seems to me that comped major with frame mounted optics is the attribute that remains the province of the full sized, highly tunable 1911.
If Major power factor is eliminated then which pistol configuration delivers Overmatch?

Will an iron sighted Staccato shooting minor have an overwhelming advantage over a CZ/Tanfo TDA or a Glock 34? Capacity and deliverable accuracy are virtually identical, aren't they?
Add a slide mounted optic to each and the equation remains the same.

I guess what I'm getting at is the original premises (Major, single action,) no longer obtains in Limited, and the development of carry optic sights with the general prevalence of high capacity sort of erodes the difference in open.

Several divisions are the direct result of the 1994 crime bill(production and L10) or explicit nostalgia(Revolver and Single Stack) in an effort to provide a "level playing field" and except for Single stack (and probably SS minor at that) have been overtaken by the bill's sunset, technology and the preferences of the general shooting public.
Each effort at "levelling the playing field" gores someone's ox and results in artificially restrictive parameters that are often very arbitrary.
The sport that IPSC/USPSA has evolved into requires at its fundamental level a pistol that can be shot accurately with .25 splits and has enough capacity to clear 2 target arrays with ammo to spare and is easily reloadable.
Far more pistols answer that now than did when Open and Limited were created.

So, in a 9mm hi cap world where 1911/SA pistols are no longer dogma is it necessary(or even desirable) that Like only competes Like on an imaginary level playing field? Is it time to reduce to only 3 divisions: Open(Major still?, Optic and Iron?
Eliminate Major and magazine restrictions and which pistol will win?

[JCN]

100129

[Bergeron]

At least in the matches I'm shooting, and people I'm shooting them with-

Everyone is shooting 9mm, and everyone is shooting optics. Anything other than a double-stack 9mm with a slide-ride dot is some sort of personal affectation, and I say this having done some of my shooting with a 10mm single stack. The Sig P320 or Glock 19/17/24 with a Sig/HoloSun/Trijicon dot is the everyman's gun (same for the ladies). There are a lot of good reasons to shoot Carry Optics, and one of them is how well the division represents the average shooter's modern kit.

There is a demand for SAO dotted-nines, so I can understand the desire to have a division that acknowledges that demand. DA and striker guns can be shot at the highest of levels, and I don't think that it's the trigger of the 2011 that provides the majority of its competition suitability (although of course it doesn't hurt), it's everything else. I was speaking to one of the better shooters at a recent "outlaw" sort of match that I attended, and he was more impressed with the minimal recoil and "speed of cycling" with the gun than the trigger of his Staccato.

Carry comps are out there, but there's way more lights hanging on guns than there are carry comps. Again, at that match above, I think that there may have even been more iron sighted guns than carry comps, and there sure weren't very many iron sights.

The ban states people have my empathy and pity. Us free folk appear to be all about capacity. What is the value of low cap divisions, and if there are capacity limits to help "level the field" what should the levels be and why? Does Major/Minor represent value in the world of the FBI-spec jacketed hollowpoint? If we're balancing recoil against difficulty of hitting, should divisions worry more about weight, and can all or any of this division determinations be done in a way that isn't obnoxious to both classify and check?

I'm at the point where I want to see what a Stacked-Up-Toe can do compared against the latest DA and striker guns, and if it's a new division that USPSA leadership decides will let that happen, then cool.:cool:

[Jim Watson]

I'm at the point where I want to see what a Stacked-Up-Toe can do compared against the latest DA and striker guns, and if it's a new division that USPSA leadership decides will let that happen, then cool.:cool:

So just do it. The Staccato + Dot will have to shoot in Open so make note of the real Open Comp gun shooters and ignore them in your comparison.

[Bergeron]

Oh, I'd rather spend other people's money,;).

I've got my dot-comp-light double stack 9mm guns, I shoot them in Open, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. Same for my single stacks. I want to see these 2011s in 9mm with slide-ride optics go up. I've seen them as Open guns, as Limited guns, and this would be a new variant. I really think the trigger is not such a big deal. I'm nowhere near even an A classification, and while I could tell you more about how I could improve my movement, my transitions, my visual patience, and my tension, and I'm really not worried about my trigger pull until shots get real tight.

[feudist]

Is the consensus that a 2011 with a slide mounted optic shooting minor with 140mm mags would dominate striker and TDA pistols in CO?

If so, because of the trigger?

If not the trigger, then what?

[YVK]

At least in the matches I'm shooting, and people I'm shooting them with-

Everyone is shooting 9mm, and everyone is shooting optics.

A different look, see if you observed the same: in the match that I shot yesterday, results of which were reasonably representative, 8 out of top 10 spots were taken by Major pf shooters. Of two minor pf shooters, one shot a rifle.

[Bergeron]

Interesting data point! For the outlaw match I referenced, total of 33 shooters, top spot was PCC shooting Major. The next highest shooter who shooting Major came in 15th, shooting pistol. 6 total shooters of 33 shot Major. 7 total shooters of 33 shot PCC instead of pistol. Of the pistol shooters in spots 1-15, only 1 shot Major. Of the top 15, 6 Carry Optics, 4 PCC shooters, 4 Limited, and 1 Production.

[YVK]

Is the consensus that a 2011 with a slide mounted optic shooting minor with 140mm mags would dominate striker and TDA pistols in CO?



I don't know if it is the consensus. Some opine yes, some no, on the basis of own anecdotal experiences. 2011s do have decades of experience of tuning them into perfect gaming machines and probably have the least ergonomic deficiencies. Can a Glock be had with a 2 lbs trigger as good and as reliable as 2011? Will a Glock, even with flashlight and brass plug cycle as well as 2011?
Other guns are just approaching that and have their own idiosyncrasies so I do think that on the whole 2011 will have some competitive advantage, at least for some people.

[Bucky]

Is the consensus that a 2011 with a slide mounted optic shooting minor with 140mm mags would dominate striker and TDA pistols in CO?

If so, because of the trigger?

If not the trigger, then what?

Just my 2¢. You get what you pay for.

1. Trigger: Trigger will be a benefit for the good to really good shooters, IMO. Exceptional shooters can overcome this though, as we’ve seen.

2. Weight: The extra weight and the balance of said weight is really well done. Shadow 2s and the like also have this advantage. I’d assume strikers with steel frames may be the same. Hanging a block of brass / lead / etc on the end of a Glock rail, while perhaps beneficial, it not the same.

3. Magwell: A2011 with a mag well has got to be the easiest gun to reload. I know other guns have mag wells available, but they aren’t quite the same. I noticed this right away moving from Caspar to STI. The Para guys had it even worse.

4. The system just shoots softer.

[Clusterfrack]

...2011s do have decades of experience of tuning them into perfect gaming machines...

Yes, and I want to highlight "tuning". I am interested in shooting divisions that don't require tuning/gunsmithing to compete on a level playing field.

At the higher level of the sport, a 5-10% advantage is huge. Even buying 1-2% is probably worth it for most people. So, I would be very disappointed if CO rules went further down the "gaming machine" road to include $5-$10k 2011s. Having to constantly clean and fiddle with my 140mm mags is already over the line for me.

One more thought: should fully-tensioned strikers be moved to Limited Optics and Limited? I've never understood how the P320 and similar are legal in CO and Production.

[GJM]

Yes, and I want to highlight "tuning". I am interested in shooting divisions that don't require tuning/gunsmithing to compete on a level playing field.

At the higher level of the sport, a 5-10% advantage is huge. Even buying 1-2% is probably worth it for most people. So, I would be very disappointed if CO rules went further down the "gaming machine" road to include $5-$10k 2011s. Having to constantly clean and fiddle with my 140mm mags is already over the line for me.

One more thought: should fully-tensioned strikers be moved to Limited Optics and Limited? I've never understood how the P320 and similar are legal in CO and Production.

My wife says Shadow 2 pistols should be moved to Open, as they split like an Open gun. :p

[YVK]

Yes, and I want to highlight "tuning". I am interested in shooting divisions that don't require tuning/gunsmithing to compete on a level playing field.


Except that you and I are shooting purpose-build co/prod guns race guns that don't require tuning only because a simple spring change gets you a 2.5 lbs SA pull on a 45 oz guns. CZs and Tanfos are what set the playing field at the level where others have to tune the crap out of their fire controls and learn how to blend plastic and tungsten, so they can hang in.

[Clusterfrack]

Except that you and I are shooting purpose-build co/prod guns race guns that don't require tuning only because a simple spring change gets you a 2.5 lbs SA pull on a 45 oz guns. CZs and Tanfos are what set the playing field at the level where others have to tune the crap out of their fire controls and learn how to blend plastic and tungsten, so they can hang in.

... and a 6# DA first pull.

[YVK]

...that had to be endured six times during a 160 or so rounds match I shot yesterday.

[Bucky]

My wife says Shadow 2 pistols should be moved to Open, as they split like an Open gun. :p

I own a couple Shadow 2s, as well as a couple full blown open guns. I respectfully disagree. :)

[JCN]

My wife says Shadow 2 pistols should be moved to Open, as they split like an Open gun. :p

Yeah, no. My wife can split 0.12s with an open gun… I can’t do that on a good day with a Shadow 2.

[JCN]

Except that you and I are shooting purpose-build co/prod guns race guns that don't require tuning only because a simple spring change gets you a 2.5 lbs SA pull on a 45 oz guns. CZs and Tanfos are what set the playing field at the level where others have to tune the crap out of their fire controls and learn how to blend plastic and tungsten, so they can hang in.

Timney trigger on a Glock with a pseudo flashlight thing and things are pretty even with a CZ again when I was playing with one.

[GJM]

I own a couple Shadow 2s, as well as a couple full blown open guns. I respectfully disagree. :)

Pretty much every carry optic shooter I see with a Shadow 2 shoots the same speed, the only difference being what they hit! :p

[cheby]

Here is the funny part. CZ never won any national championship. 2011/Glocks/320 won a lot across various divisions. Maybe CZ is just not that good and needs its own division?

Kidding, LOL

[cheby]

... and a 6# DA first pull.

This DA pull is absolutely irrelevant for USPSA. I don’t remember a stage where that would be an issue.

[cheby]

One more thought: should fully-tensioned strikers be moved to Limited Optics and Limited? I've never understood how the P320 and similar are legal in CO and Production.

What are you talking about here? Shadow 2 trigger is better than ANY striker fired triggers out there. That is the best part of that pistol.

[JCN]

Here is the funny part. CZ never won any US national championship.


Fixed that for you!

[Clusterfrack]

Here is the funny part. CZ never won any national championship. 2011/Glocks/320 won a lot across various divisions. Maybe CZ is just not that good and needs its own division?

Kidding, LOL

Tanfo...


This DA pull is absolutely irrelevant for USPSA. I don’t remember a stage where that would be an issue.

A 6# DA trigger pull is simply not as easy to be fast&accurate as a <2# SA trigger. While it's an infrequent on the scale of a match, classifiers and stages where it's an advantage to start on a very difficult or high-risk target make the 1st trigger pull a competitive concern.


What are you talking about here? Shadow 2 trigger is better than ANY striker fired triggers out there. That is the best part of that pistol.

I don't disagree, although Walthers have an amazing trigger, especially with a trigger job. However, the issue is whether fully cocked strikers are legal in the USPSA rulebook. Does AD7 refer to all striker-fired handguns, or only "safe action"?

APPENDIX D7 –Carry Optics Division
Special conditions:

1.Only Double Action, Double Action/Single Action, and Safe Action/Striker Fired handguns are allowed, and must be on the approved list. When in the ready conditions as specified under 8.1, a gun with an external hammer must be hammer down. A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present. Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division.

2.Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal. If a decocking lever is installed and used, the term fully decocked is the position where the hammer rests once the decocking lever has been used. Altering a factory installed decocker to bring the hammer to rest at less than a half-cocked position is not allowed. Manually decocked hammers must be fully down.

[ECK]

And then there are those that say the minimal difference if any between the different action types anymore, be it DA/SA, SAO, or striker.

Personally I think there is a huge difference, the main delta being the amount of time devoted to practicing with that particular action type.

[YVK]

And then there are those that say the minimal difference if any between the different action types anymore, be it DA/SA, SAO, or striker.

Personally I think there is a huge difference, the main delta being the amount of time devoted to practicing with that particular action type.

So I understand it, you think one type requires more time to practice than others?

[ECK]

So I understand it, you think one type requires more time to practice than others?

For me, yes I do.

[YVK]

Interesting how we all feel different about things. I spend as much time on getting the thumb safety off on 1911 correctly as on a DA shot practice.

[ECK]

Interesting how we all feel different about things. I spend as much time on getting the thumb safety off on 1911 correctly as on a DA shot practice.

It’s probably bc I grew up shooting 1911’s that sweeping the thumb safety off is second nature to me. DA/SA took a bit of dry fire practice to get used to the DA pull, but now I don’t think twice about it. Striker fired was the easiest manual of arms, but for me took the longest to shoot well.

[45dotACP]

And then there are those that say the minimal difference if any between the different action types anymore, be it DA/SA, SAO, or striker.

Personally I think there is a huge difference, the main delta being the amount of time devoted to practicing with that particular action type.To me at least, a pistol with a really easy to shoot DA (like my Beretta with a LTT trigger job or the P07 with a 7lb DA pull) the differences are less pronounced.

Comparing shootability between a SAO and a TDA with a 10-12lb DA is pretty different for sure.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[JCN]

And then there are those that say the minimal difference if any between the different action types anymore, be it DA/SA, SAO, or striker.

Personally I think there is a huge difference, the main delta being the amount of time devoted to practicing with that particular action type.


It’s probably bc I grew up shooting 1911’s that sweeping the thumb safety off is second nature to me. DA/SA took a bit of dry fire practice to get used to the DA pull, but now I don’t think twice about it. Striker fired was the easiest manual of arms, but for me took the longest to shoot well.

That’s very interesting!

Spending most time on DASA… striker and SAO didn’t take any adjustment or change for me from a trigger standpoint.

[YVK]

It’s probably bc I grew up shooting 1911’s that sweeping the thumb safety off is second nature to me.

Same here, 1911 was my second gun. I developed a habit of sweeping it in the "Gunsite" fashion and by the time I was shown a different way, which I do prefer, I was getting out of 1911s and have never truly re-ingrained the new way.

[ECK]

Same here, 1911 was my second gun. I developed a habit of sweeping it in the "Gunsite" fashion and by the time I was shown a different way, which I do prefer, I was getting out of 1911s and have never truly re-ingrained the new way.

I’m self-taught. What’s the Gunsite fashion?

[YVK]

I’m self-taught. What’s the Gunsite fashion?

Traditional teaching when thumb safety is flipped off as soon as muzzle clears a holster and is pointed forward. At about 1 minute mark

https://youtu.be/TGGxwJrrABY

[Bucky]

My first handgun was a 1911, and I began shooting USPSA very soon after purchase. I learned to ride the thumb safety, and since my first 7 or so years was almost exclusively 1911s, it’s ingrained in me, to the point I’m looking to come down on that safety on any pistol.

For those that say they “sweep” the safety off, to me that paints a picture of sweeping off and past the safety ( not riding the safety). Am I envisioning that correctly?

[ECK]

My first handgun was a 1911, and I began shooting USPSA very soon after purchase. I learned to ride the thumb safety, and since my first 7 or so years was almost exclusively 1911s, it’s ingrained in me, to the point I’m looking to come down on that safety on any pistol.

For those that say they “sweep” the safety off, to me that paints a picture of sweeping off and past the safety ( not riding the safety). Am I envisioning that correctly?

My self-taught method is to index my thumb on the safety when I draw and then push down and my thumb rides the safety for as long as I am shooting. The safety is swept off or pressed down somewhere between clearing the holster and coming up on target.

[JCN]

What was the recent USPSA rules comment about safeties needing to be active when in holster?

Something about you get DQ if the safety clicks off before the gun is out?

Did I remember that wrong?

[Clusterfrack]

What was the recent USPSA rules comment about safeties needing to be active when in holster?

Something about you get DQ if the safety clicks off before the gun is out?

Did I remember that wrong?

I know someone who shot herself in the leg with an Open gun doing that.

[ECK]

What was the recent USPSA rules comment about safeties needing to be active when in holster?

Something about you get DQ if the safety clicks off before the gun is out?

Did I remember that wrong?

8.1.2.5 says the safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster. And it is a DQ-able offense under 10.5.11

App A3 glossary defines “draw” as the point where the handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to the trigger.

So the gun does not need to be all the way out before the safety can be flicked off, just maybe an inch or so to clear the trigger.

Reality is that’s a hard thing for an RO to see, plus it tends to happen pretty fast, so even harder to call. IME the few people that have run afoul of 8.1.2.5 and 10.5.11 are those that forget to put the thumb safety on (or lower the hammer in DA) when they holster.

[Norville]

What was the recent USPSA rules comment about safeties needing to be active when in holster?

Something about you get DQ if the safety clicks off before the gun is out?

Did I remember that wrong?

The safety must be on when the gun is holstered. The example was at LMR, the shooter loaded, holstered then applied the safety after the gun was in the holster, the ruling was DQ as the safety has to be on when the gun is in the holster.


Edit: see 10.5.11

[feudist]

When will they vote on this?

[YVK]

When will they vote on this?

This Sunday.

[feudist]

A discussion of the pros and the cons of the issue and the future of USPSA with the Humble Marksman, Phil Strader and Kenny Platt.
TL;DR: it's a 9mm and hicap world, the manufacturers and aftermarket have eliminated the overmatch that the widebody 1911s when the original Open/Limited split occurred, much less when Production was created.
What actually constitutes a competitive advantage is debated. The difficulties of reconciling legacy divisions by power factor, mag capacity(with state hicap restriction concerns) and trigger action with the game's evolved shooting mechanics is discussed.
Right now, the rules stifle innovation and result in the constant patching of divisions. "Rubbing is racing".
The problems of drawing enough shooters to various national and area matches is dire.

Everyone's ox gets gored.




https://www.youtube.com/live/ieaCZgAl2us?feature=share

[bofe954]

It'd be tough to enforce, but I wonder if it'd be better to separate out divisions by cost, like NRL does. Might entice manufacturers and custom gun makers to drive prices down instead of up. Have three classes or something. You could debate whether to even separate the optics from irons, or just let let it be part of the total cost of the package. Shoot a $500 gun with an SRO, or $1000 gun with it's factory irons. Probably still have to set some sort of limit on capacity.

B. Classes
1. The Base class is intended to be budget oriented. It is also intended to be a class to allow an introduction
to this fantastic shooting discipline. Any rifle system that comes in under a combined MSRP of $1200 shall be
eligible to compete in Base class. This combined MSRP price is for the rifle and scope only. It excludes scope
rings and bases, bipods, suppressors, data card holders, magazines, spare magazine holders, auto bolt releases,
aftermarket triggers and extended magazine releases. Factory barrels may be threaded to accept a suppressor.
Adjustments to the stock to get proper cheek weld, hand grips, trigger jobs, and bedding of the stock are also
allowed. Rails of any type utilized to mount a bipod may be added. Rifles and scopes that are out of production
are difficult to check the MSRP. The NRL22 will allow certain popular rifles and scopes that are out of
production to compete. The NRL22 will provide a list of discontinued rifles and scopes along with MSRP’s
that will be used to calculate the $1200 limit. Base class shooters should be mindful that manufacturers may
change the MSRP of their products from time to time. Neither price changes nor discontinuations of
products are the fault of the NRL22. However, the production status and MSRP on June 1st will be
considered valid for the entire 2021 season. At sign in, the Match Director shall inspect the rifle and ensure
that the combined MSRP comes in under $1200. If it goes over, the shooter shall compete in the open class.
This determination and interpretation of the Base class rules are solely decided by the local Match Directors
for their own clubs. Any communications regarding Base class rules to NRL22 staff will not be replied to. You
will need to check with your local match director. For the National Championship however, these rules will be
followed to the letter. There will be a gunsmith present at the NRL22 National Championship for Base class
rifle inspections. A list of popular rifle and scopes MSRPs and discontinued rifle and scopes MSRPs will be
included in the monthly course of fire.

[Bergeron]

I really don’t want to see cost-based divisions. I have no idea how much my guns cost.

When I started shooting matches back in the day, it seemed like my stuff was never a good fit, and the times when I did have intention to build a well-suited gun were fun, but I’ve now settled that I only want a few guns, not a bunch of guns, and I want the guns I have because I think they’re cool more than I think they’re optimized for whatever matches, even as I enjoy the opportunities I get to shoot matches.

I’m interested in that YouTube video.

What are the purposes of having the different divisions, and what are the competitive advantages?

[feudist]

So, what was the verdict?

[GJM]

So, what was the verdict?

No word yet

[feudist]

No word yet

Purely from a curiosity standpoint, I would be interested in seeing it rolled into CO to determine if there is a measurable advantage to SA against the Striker and TDA guns of today in this context.
Especially given the ferocious skill level down to B class(Hell, nowadays maybe even high C) and the evolution of the understanding and mechanics of the sport.