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Eezymurf
12-25-2022, 07:19 PM
Hi,

Happy holidays everyone

I recently attended a match overseas and would like to know if the clause 2.2.1.1, or the idea behind adding this new clause applies in this scenario:

The starting position for this stage is, on a table we need to put the mags in the square directly in front of the pistol, with the gun’s muzzle pointing forward. The question is, without ever touching the firearm can a person reach for the mags first before handling the pistol?

My understanding of the idea behind including 2.2.1.1 is to not penalize the shooter when he’s on the draw. However in this stage a shooter will not have to draw because the firearm is already on the table, so when the he reaches for the mags before touching the firearm, can this situation be seen as the pistol is before the draw hence shouldn’t be disqualified?

I’m not sure if it’s a common scenario that one may cross his/her body part with guns on the table untouched in a match, if so can someone share their thoughts and experiences on this? In real life, an example I can think of is when cops seize firearms, they display all on the table. And it’s common to see them walk around it.

Thank you

CraigS
01-01-2023, 10:19 AM
A direct copy/paste from the rues.
2.2.1 Endangering any person, including yourself. This includes sweeping oneself or anyone else with a loaded or
unloaded firearm. Sweeping is defined as allowing the muzzle of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) to cross or
cover any portion of a person.
2.2.1.1 Exception: A match Disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the shooter’s own body below the belt
while removing the firearm from the holster or holstering of the firearm, provided that the shooter’s trigger
finger is clearly outside of the trigger guard. However, after the muzzle of the firearm is clear of the holster
and has rotated up on the draw, sweeping any part of the body is a Disqualification.

Since 2211 is an exception to 221 I pasted both. I am thinking that in your match scenario (which was not well thought out-mags should have been next to the pistol) there would be no problem as long as, like you say, one grabs the mag before the gun. In other words this rule and exception deals w/ 'sweeping oneself'. In my mind 'sweeping' can't happen unless the gun is moving, which can't happen unless one touches it. I could also argue that there would be no problem even if you grab the gun first as long as 'the shooter’s trigger finger is clearly outside of the trigger guard'. I also think of what is the definition of sweeping. To me it means the gun is pointed or aimed at a body part. In the match case, what if the gun is grabbed first in such a way that the muzzle is pointed down range and is 8 inches off the table. Now your other hand grabs a mag but stays obviously below that 8 inch height. Because your hand is ahead of the muzzle is that sweeping, even though the hand is nowhere near being aimed at? I looked through the rest of the Safety rules and didn't find any further definition of sweeping, or any further discussion of muzzle in relation to body parts so you bring up an interesting question.

Mirolynmonbro
01-03-2023, 02:36 PM
I've attended many matches where magazines are staged in front of or near the muzzle of the pistol and shooters were reminded to be aware of your hands and the muzzle.

A recent match had a couple disqualifications during the load and make ready because the shooter put the pistol on a table first then placed the magazines in front of the muzzle and muzzled their hands.

JCN
01-03-2023, 05:34 PM
The rules are extra strict to reduce the chance of someone making an error.

Even though a gun is unloaded, you can’t remove it from your trunk and put it in your holster.

Etc.

So it doesn’t really matter than a gun on a table is unloaded, it’s not a holster which is the ONLY situation muzzling oneself is allowed and even then it’s only while the muzzle is still in the holster.

Table start is NOT one of those situations.

Imagine a bore sight laser out of your muzzle.

Don’t put your other hand or body parts there. Period.

If your mags have to be in front of the muzzle, grab them from the top or the side. Or move the muzzle aside while you pick up the gun and mag.

We come across this when accessing ports and doorknobs on stage props. You can put your hand downrange of your muzzle. You just can’t point your gun at your body parts.

CraigS
01-04-2023, 09:41 AM
To me setting up a stage that way is just a stupid 'gotcha' by an overzealous stage designer. The same 'lesson' could be taught by stating in the stage instructions to 'place the mags first and then the pistol'. If I were DQd as in Mirolynmonbro's example I'd be pi$$ed off and unlikely to feel I learned anything. JCN's example of accessing ports and doorknobs makes sense to me because the gun is IN THE SHOOTERS HAND. To me that is different from an empty gun placed, by direction of the SO, on a table. What do you guys think?

Jim Watson
01-04-2023, 10:32 AM
I've attended many matches where magazines are staged in front of or near the muzzle of the pistol and shooters were reminded to be aware of your hands and the muzzle.

A recent match had a couple disqualifications during the load and make ready because the shooter put the pistol on a table first then placed the magazines in front of the muzzle and muzzled their hands.

I have never run into that, never been told where on the table the magazines must go at all, even when the pistol is staged "trigger on the X."

If told to put my ammo in front of my gun, I would carefully comply, but I might not darken their door again.

Moylan
01-04-2023, 10:38 AM
I have never run into that, never been told where on the table the magazines must go at all, even when the pistol is staged "trigger on the X."

That's been my experience too, but I've only been to a dozen or so matches.

Jim Watson
01-04-2023, 10:47 AM
I don't get around as much as I used to, the Wednesday night USPSA (Tonight's the night!) and a couple of Saturday IDPA matches that I have been following for years are about it; so I am not exposed to a variety of MDs to get hung up on such nonsense.

I wonder where in Alabama M. is running into it.

Sal Picante
01-04-2023, 11:35 AM
A direct copy/paste from the rues.
2.2.1 Endangering any person, including yourself. This includes sweeping oneself or anyone else with a loaded or
unloaded firearm. Sweeping is defined as allowing the muzzle of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) to cross or
cover any portion of a person.
2.2.1.1 Exception: A match Disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the shooter’s own body below the belt
while removing the firearm from the holster or holstering of the firearm, provided that the shooter’s trigger
finger is clearly outside of the trigger guard. However, after the muzzle of the firearm is clear of the holster
and has rotated up on the draw, sweeping any part of the body is a Disqualification.




I think that is a dumb F*&king stage design. WTF are they thinking?

The point of IDPA is to Offer a practical shooting sport encouraging competitors to develop skills and fellowship with like-minded
shooters and making "GOTCHA!" traps is just stupid beyond belief.

I'd encourage you to complain, in writing, to an area/country director so that they have some oversight over bullshit like this.

That said, the way the rules are written would not allow 2.2.1.1 to apply. First off, "sweeping", as defined, is pretty specific with the whole "allowing the muzzle of the firearm (loaded or unloaded) to cross or cover any portion of a person."

Additionally, since the sweeping didn't involve a.) "shooter’s own body below the belt" and b.) "removing the firearm from the holster or holstering of the firearm", I'm not sure any exception can be made.

Ultimately, even given stupid stage design, safety is our own #1 priority.

Mirolynmonbro
01-04-2023, 02:28 PM
To me setting up a stage that way is just a stupid 'gotcha' by an overzealous stage designer. The same 'lesson' could be taught by stating in the stage instructions to 'place the mags first and then the pistol'. If I were DQd as in Mirolynmonbro's example I'd be pi$$ed off and unlikely to feel I learned anything. JCN's example of accessing ports and doorknobs makes sense to me because the gun is IN THE SHOOTERS HAND. To me that is different from an empty gun placed, by direction of the SO, on a table. What do you guys think?


I have never run into that, never been told where on the table the magazines must go at all, even when the pistol is staged "trigger on the X."

If told to put my ammo in front of my gun, I would carefully comply, but I might not darken their door again.

Shooters weren't told to put magazines in front of the muzzle.
They were told if they muzzled their hands when reaching for the magazines then it would be a DQ.

You can tell shooters to place magazines first then the pistol, but that doesn't mean they are going to do it in that order.

Jim Watson
01-04-2023, 02:47 PM
I thought you meant that staging the magazines in front of the gun was mandatory. If not, dumb to do so.

In the OP's case, it was. Dumb setup.

Mirolynmonbro
01-04-2023, 04:44 PM
I thought you meant that staging the magazines in front of the gun was mandatory. If not, dumb to do so.

In the OP's case, it was. Dumb setup.

Yikes. I haven't seen that happen at a match and I hope I don't ever.

CraigS
01-04-2023, 04:58 PM
Shooters weren't told to put magazines in front of the muzzle.
They were told if they muzzled their hands when reaching for the magazines then it would be a DQ.

You can tell shooters to place magazines first then the pistol, but that doesn't mean they are going to do it in that order.

Ah, got it.

1911Nut
01-04-2023, 10:12 PM
Never mind