Hand and grip size, am I overthinking things?

[Evil_Ed]

So, short version - I have XL+ hands give or take, and I'm finding that certain firearms/grips leave me at the point where my support hand isn't making contact with the firearm at all...which means recoil control isn't all that great.

An example of this - a Beretta PX4 Compact with the large backstrap and grip tape on it; if I grip it with my strong hand firing grip ready for my support hand to meet it, if I take a dummy 45ACP cartridge, I cannot grip or squeeze it in the space between my index and ring fingers, and the meat of my thumb. I can't even orient them in such a way where that's possible; there's plenty of support hand grip space available on the gun for the support hand to make contact with the grip/frame without needing to move anything on my shooting hand.

However if I try this on a CZ75/P01, I can very easily take control of and pick up a 45acp dummy by squeezing it between my strong hand middle/ring finger and the meat of my thumb, while in a shooting grip, without adjusting anything. Since my support hand isn't made of silicone putty, it basically never touches the grip/frame...it just can't really squeeze in the tiny amount of available grip space on the support hand side of the gun. Not unless I back the rear of my shooting hand off the backstrap a bit to let my support hand wedge in and make contact with the support side, which is what I wind up doing.

On a 1911 with a flat mainspring housing, I can grip the dummy 45 with a slight shooting hand adjustment; with the arched mainspring housing, I can only grip it if I mess up my grip a lot. Same with a Beretta 92 (NON-Vertec); it's only if I deliberately crowd the frame into a grip I wouldn't normally shoot with that I can pinch the 45 dummy round between finger and meat.

Anyway - the reason for this - I bought the aforementioned P01 ages ago; I like the CZ platform, I like that it's a decocker without a thumb safety; I like that it's G19+- sized with 14+1 (or more depending on mag size); I like that it's millable for an optic; and I like that you can mount a light to it. I spent a good bit of money on CGW bits and making some improvements to it like sights; DA pull is around 7.5 pounds and SA is a mushy 3lb (which is fine for me, I'm not shooting this in bullseye). I found though that whenever I took it out for practice, it was pretty difficult to keep total control over it; it would move around a lot under recoil...because the rear of my shooting hand was backed off the backstrap so my support hand could make contact with the grip. I also found that often after a few mags at the range, my support hand kept just slipping off no matter what I did since there was so little real estate for it to lock into on the gun.

Am I overthinking this? Is this something I should just work/train around, or is this something I should actually pay attention to and try to fit things to me, vs fit me to things? I've been trying to whittle down and remove things that I just can't make work for me, but there's this nagging voice in the back of my head saying 'Don't sell this stuff, it's a "you" problem and not a problem with the tool'..

Visual examples (all firearms rendered safe before photographing):

PX4:

98934

CZ P01:

98935

[Clusterfrack]

Evil_Ed, I don’t think you are overthinking it. Many top shooters recommend the largest grip you can use and still have a good trigger pull and operate the mag release and slide lock.

Lok Bogies palmswell grips might be worth a try on your CZs. But some guns just don’t fit some people.

[Artemas2]

I also have the large hands and some E.T. Fingers which makes most gun too small and I just crush the heck out of my SH fingers. For my SP01 and Shadow 2 I went went with the SSI scales 4.0 which fit nicely, but if you prefer to use G10, LoK will let you order specific thicknesses (currently on hold until 2023)

[Evil_Ed]

Evil_Ed, I don’t think you are overthinking it. Many top shooters recommend the largest grip you can use and still have a good trigger pull and operate the mag release and slide lock.

Lok Bogies palmswell grips might be worth a try on your CZs. But some guns just don’t fit some people.

The grips currently on it are "LOK Grips Compact CZ 75 Palm Swell Checkered G10 Grips" via Amazon...so, palmswells but checkered, not Bogies. And they do feel nice, just...small. I think it's more a front-to-back length thing than a width thing, to be honest..

[CraigS]

I think you are on to something here. You have found that the CZ doesn't work well for you. Oh well. Even though you like a lot of it's features, to me it simply is not the gun for you. The good thing is that there are so many good guns available now that you won't have a problem. OTOH, before dumping the CZ, experiment w/ modding the grip. If nothing else, grab some thick tape and build up the back strap so you make the front to rear dimension longer. If you find that makes the gun work better for you, then figure a way to do it more professionally.

[LukeNCMX]

Big hand problems
I do not think you are overthinking this at all. I think it is really important to fit a pistol to your hand in order to reach your potential when shooting aggressively at a predictive pace. I believe fitting a gun to create space for your support hand is the most important priority above trigger length of pull (reach) then magazine release, and lastly slide release.

It is a lot harder to prevent the gun from slipping inside your grip when you have a tiny amount of contact with your support hand on the frame of a pistol. In my opinion the technique of burying your firing hand fingers into your support hand palm is a viable but lesser technique that should be saved for circumstances when you don't have the option of making a too-small grip larger.

The technique of flagging your firing hand thumb up and away from the backstrap on presentation to expose the back edge and create space for your support hand when building a two hand grip is my preferred method. I initially learned from watching slow motion video of Stoeger building his grip on the draw. Many others such as Mike Seeklander and TPC advocate for this grip building method.

One other idea to toss around is experimenting with the beavertail not being centered in the web of your firing hand. If you cheat the web around where the center of the beavertail is in line with the base of your firing hand thumb you may be able to create enough space on the support side of the pistol to make a small grip work. I know this is against what a lot of instructors have advocated (Todd Jarrett comes to mind) but others have achieved success with it depending on the platform (Hwansik Kim).

The PX4 pic shows a minimum amount of space for support hand contact. The CZ shows an insufficient amount of space that will likely require a software work around, especially since you have already swapped the stock panels for palm swells.

I think experimenting with a platform with adjustable backstraps that allows you to significantly increase front to back length (Glock Gen4/5, etc.) might be a good idea as a last resort.

[Evil_Ed]

Ok, great - thank you all for the feedback; it's nice to know I'm at least in the ballpark with my thinking that this could be an issue. It's why I never looked at a Sig P365 in any way seriously, and honestly wondered how the hell people could shoot that with any expertise...it's just too small to get any kind of grip with.

The P01 is perfect in every way except the grip. If there were a way to make a cut-down CZ97 frame work with it...sigh.



I think experimenting with a platform with adjustable backstraps that allows you to significantly increase front to back length (Glock Gen4/5, etc.) might be a good idea as a last resort.

This is one of the reasons why I've been lately on a CZ P07 and PX4 movement; the large backstrap on them both fit me very well. The HK P30 as well, to an extent; the large backstrap plus the large palm swells seem to work though there really isn't a huge contact patch for my support hand. I've got a couple Gen5 Glocks, and a nice Gen3 G21 which works really well...I just wish the things I actually wanted to use/carry/train with were all as ergonomically elastic.

[feudist]

You can always try the Lost River mod to increase front to back length.
Take a piece of a leather belt, or some such, and tape it to the backstrap of the grip to increase the trigger LOP.
While ugly(but it is concealed, right?) it would at least see if that's a productive line of inquiry.

[JCN]

Ok, great - thank you all for the feedback; it's nice to know I'm at least in the ballpark with my thinking that this could be an issue. It's why I never looked at a Sig P365 in any way seriously, and honestly wondered how the hell people could shoot that with any expertise...it's just too small to get any kind of grip with.

The P01 is perfect in every way except the grip. If there were a way to make a cut-down CZ97 frame work with it...sigh.

This is one of the reasons why I've been lately on a CZ P07 and PX4 movement; the large backstrap on them both fit me very well. The HK P30 as well, to an extent; the large backstrap plus the large palm swells seem to work though there really isn't a huge contact patch for my support hand. I've got a couple Gen5 Glocks, and a nice Gen3 G21 which works really well...I just wish the things I actually wanted to use/carry/train with were all as ergonomically elastic.

2011?

It's too bad they don't make a TSO compact. That gun has a longer front to back dimension because of the magazines.

[UncleGabby]

Before my daughter was born and I had more time to shoot I put 5000+ rounds in one year through a couple of HK P2000 pistols. I know that is a tiny number compared to most posters here, but it was about 4900 more than most of the gun nuts that I know shoot in a year, and that’s when a lot of things clicked for me with pistol shooting. I loved that pistol for the XL grips. I have large hands with extra long fingers. The large backstrap on the P2000 felt good, and I used that for a while, but I tried the XL grips and though they felt awkward, I really liked the way my finger interacted with the trigger through the entire length of pull, and the grip had plenty of open room for my support hand. This was four years ago, before I found pistol-forum, so I was groping about in the dark on my own.

I moved on from the P2000 because optic mounting is an expensive proposition with that platform, so I’m trying to like Glocks. I’m still a novice, but figuring out how to properly judge the suitability of a grip for me was a huge step. If the grip doesn’t fit nothing else matters. It’s like a nice pair of running shoes, it doesn’t matter what they’re made of, or who else wears them, if they don’t fit your feet it’s not going to work. It actually helps me handle the occasional case of new gun lust. I can fondle it for a few minutes at the store and tell if it’s going to work for me or not.

I’m sure more skilled and experienced shooters can find ways to work around an ill sized grip, but my resources, especially time, are very limited, so I make the most out of what fits me.

[CraigS]

I found that kydex holster material works well to increase a grip size. Similar to fuedist's strip of leather, get a piece of .100" or .125" thick kydex and cut it to the same width (or slightly more) as the backstrap. Heat it w/ a hair drier until it softens and mold it over the backstrap wearing gloves. Now finish the edges so it is just slightly under width. Use no-slip stair tape slipped under the grip panels to hold it in place. This is what I did to my Beretta 92X Defensive to make the straight backstrap similar to the curved version.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52584462497_6e94fcf285_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o7H7FK)20220923_083817 (https://flic.kr/p/2o7H7FK) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
To increase the entire grip length just make the kydex piece long enough to go from top to bottom. You can also just use the tape. Cut so you have 2-3-4 layers on the frame and then make the top layer wider so it can slip under the grip panels. A little hair drier heat helps shape the tape and seems to kind of set the sticky a little more permanently.

[Jason M]

Before my daughter was born and I had more time to shoot I put 5000+ rounds in one year through a couple of HK P2000 pistols. I know that is a tiny number compared to most posters here, but it was about 4900 more than most of the gun nuts that I know shoot in a year, and that’s when a lot of things clicked for me with pistol shooting. I loved that pistol for the XL grips. I have large hands with extra long fingers. The large backstrap on the P2000 felt good, and I used that for a while, but I tried the XL grips and though they felt awkward, I really liked the way my finger interacted with the trigger through the entire length of pull, and the grip had plenty of open room for my support hand. This was four years ago, before I found pistol-forum, so I was groping about in the dark on my own.

I moved on from the P2000 because optic mounting is an expensive proposition with that platform, so I’m trying to like Glocks. I’m still a novice, but figuring out how to properly judge the suitability of a grip for me was a huge step. If the grip doesn’t fit nothing else matters. It’s like a nice pair of running shoes, it doesn’t matter what they’re made of, or who else wears them, if they don’t fit your feet it’s not going to work. It actually helps me handle the occasional case of new gun lust. I can fondle it for a few minutes at the store and tell if it’s going to work for me or not.

I’m sure more skilled and experienced shooters can find ways to work around an ill sized grip, but my resources, especially time, are very limited, so I make the most out of what fits me.

I understand what you are saying. I have bigger hands and there are some pistols that just don’t fit. Some like the P2K you mentioned, P30, PX4, etc have grips that can be added to to make the overall size larger but it doesn’t always lead to a “fit”. Ultimately, there is a ton of trial and error that goes into finding the Goldilocks fit. In my experience with 9mm pistols, there are one or two guns out there that will really fit the individual well. I work in a Glock dominated world. I learned to work with the 22.3 and the 17.4. I am currently issued a G45 and it is a better fit than its predecessors. A 26.5 is my go to when not at work. The 26 of any generation is a better fit for me that any of the G19. The full sized Glocks that fit my hand right and are easiest to grip right every time are the .45 ACP guns. The 21/30 SF and the gen 4 guns are like they were made for my hand. I am looking forward to shooting the gen 5 versions. If the GMB makes an already very accurate gun more accurate, I will have a quandary.

P2K was close with the medium backstrap. Size wise, the L was better but the location of the hump made trigger reach awkward. I tried the P30 and found that it was able to be made to fit but the rounded contour of the side panels made tracking the front sight more difficult. P07, PX4CC, PX4 full-size, and Beretta 92 Full-size fit me perfectly. The best of the bunch in my hand is the PX4 full-size. But… I live in a plastic, striker-fired world.

I’m currently messing with a PDP compact. It id checking a few boxes that the Glocks do not as far as fit. It is optics ready. LTT has cracked the optics mount code for the 92/PX4 guns might be worth a look. I think there are some optics ready, reliable pistols out there. Certainly one will fit you. Remember though, there needs to be holster, sight, factory support too. Glock is the easy button as far as support but the others are not too far behind. Beretta and HK (contrary to gun forum lore) offer great support. Some of the PF supporting businesses offer superb holster choices for the “other than Glock” pistols.

I think the only way to find the right one is to well, FAFO.

Merry Christmas!

[4RNR]

Similar situation. I don't think I have XL hands but I have weird ET/Quasimodo fingers and I need releatate to wrap them around.

Kinda hard to explain without showing but....
For instance, I cannot make a flat fist. My first two fingers stick way out. For this reason I use the very front of my finger to pull the trigger and there needs to be something to fill all that space in between.

Ideal grips are G20, Sig226, Beretta 92. G19 is good but my support hand begins to sit on top of my fingers from the grip hand instead of on the grip. Anything with a G19 size grip I prefer to use the biggest back strap.

Sometimes a small gun actually works but it's on a case by case basis. For example, Sig365/XL was overall too small and narrow. I could never grip it comfortably or index properly and there was always empty space and the pistol would move around when shooting. Similar situation with most J frames. However the slightly larger Hellcat PRO is a world of difference. It's overall large enough that I can grip comfortably, index properly and not have to readjust after every shot.

I've long ago come to the conclusion that I have to dress around a full (duty) size gun and that's basically what I do. Up until the Hellcat PRO my smallest lightest daily carry was G19

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[Gun Mutt]

I edc a 9mm Glock, but if I had to...had to...take a hostage shot with a pistol, I'd choose my G20.3. That big ol' grip just does something.

*Wear XL gloves, mainly because my early-primate thumbs are stoopid long.

[CraigS]

Reading through this thread makes me really glad I am not a product engineer for a pistol manufacturer. So many now have changeable back straps which is a huge advancement, but we can see here that even those leave some hands lacking a great grip. I am also glad I enjoy tinkering. The first 4-5 weeks after I bought the Beretta shown above I was really worried. It is by far the most expensive gun I have ever bought and I was afraid I would have to sell it because of the grip.

[JonInWA]

My personal protocol in empirically determining the ideal grip configuration/size for a given gun is to start out with the process laid out in hkpro.com:

"With an unloaded gun, look at a defined target with the pistol at your chest prior to press-out;
Close your eyes, and, keeping them closes,
Press out the pistol to your natural extended shooting position.
Open eyes and see where the front sight is vertically-if the front sight is too low, install a larger backstrap and re-test; if the front sight is too high, install a smaller backstrap and re-test.
Ultimately, you want the front and rear sights aligned naturally on the target after press-out."

If there adjustable side panels, use the ones that best fill your hand, and/or adjust for windage or cant. You may well find that an asymmetric side panel selection works the best. Similarly, don't assume that the size of the best backstrap dictates the size for the panels-experiment, dryfire, live fire, adjust. Do so on each individual platform-don't assume that the best selections on one platform will naturally transfer over to similar platforms.

For others, positioning of the trigger finger on the trigger will be the crucial variable-find out what works for you empirically, per gun.

E.g. on my HKs, my P30L performs best with a Small backstrap and Large left and right panels; my VP40 is best with a Small backstrap, Large left panel, and Small right panel. While the frames are similar between the 2 guns, the VP40 has a deeper tang backstrap curvature, which affects the side panel selection-at least for me.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Grip material can also have an effect, sometimes seemingly counterintuitive. For example, I've found that for my hands, my Gen 3 Glocks (including, much to my surprise, my G21 Gen 3 "Big Butt") really benefit from adding Hogue's HandAll Beavertail grip sleeve. These are much more tightly molded than their previous HandAlls, and have a very beneficial effect on my index, firing grip and control, as well as recoil absorption.

https://i.imgur.com/ZzfjrEkh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uVol30lh.jpg

Similarly, I've found that on 1911s, VCD's grips with their aggressive texturing not only assist with control, but really marginalize the need for front strap checkering (not rendering it inadvisable, but just less necessary).

https://i.imgur.com/6Pv8Oqwh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CsavzwDh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8ZDZPJRh.jpg

And similarly on my .40 High Power with as set of RDIH polymer tactical fingergroove grips, with VCD stippling:

https://i.imgur.com/TMtDEvHh.jpg

For revolvers, the shape, aesthetics and ergonomics of VZ's G10 grips are exquisite, but they'll transfer pretty much every iota of recoil forces directly to your palm, making it somewhat painful to shoot more than 30 or so full-house 158 gr .357 magnums-for me, that makes them a 2-cylinder proposition, or used with .38 Special cartridges...

https://i.imgur.com/vDtvOt0h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ql9FTBt.jpg

Far better overall results are achieved with a set of Hogue Tamer grips for shooting magnum loads; they're arguably aesthetically challenged, but the recoil absorbing sorbathane insert in the rear tang definitely works, allowing comfortable firing of extended amounts (50+ rounds in a session, for example) of full house magnum cartridges. Their profile is revised as well, making them slightly less angular and bulky than their non-Tamer Hogue brethren:

https://i.imgur.com/E3jX8oN.jpg

Additionally, well shaped and executed wood grips can be of great utility, as I've found with BH Spring Solutions' grips:

https://i.imgur.com/r36r8pu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Rr02BGI.jpg

The vestigial thumb shelf on them I find to provide a superior grip, especially noticeable when shooting support-hand only;

https://i.imgur.com/1aKunyHh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/t5VvRFwh.jpg

Best, Jon

[rayrevolver]

Similarly, I've found that on 1911s, VCD's grips with their aggressive texturing not only assist with control, but really marginalize the need for front strap checkering (not rendering it inadvisable, but just less necessary).

https://i.imgur.com/6Pv8Oqwh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CsavzwDh.jpg

Best, Jon

I just realized (2 nights ago) there were different sized mainspring housings for 1911s and 2011s. I see you have both flat and arched. Makes no difference for you?

Dawson sells an Arched MSH for the 2011 but its sold out. Ordered the Wedge MSH to see how that feels.

Seems like I ran down this path with the Beretta 92X. A smaller dude like myself (medium gloves) would like the Vertec slim grip... nope. I installed the humped grips and that was much better for me.

[David S.]

How do M&P 2.0’s fit?

[medmo]

My glove size is 2xl.

4RNR I have found the same differences between the 365 and Hellcat. The stock grip on the 365 is uncomfortably too small.

David S. I have a 2.0 Compact 4”. The M grip is too small. The L grip adaptor with beavertail fits me well. Same thing, L grip adaptor, with PX4 and G19 Gen5.

[JonInWA]

I just realized (2 nights ago) there were different sized mainspring housings for 1911s and 2011s. I see you have both flat and arched. Makes no difference for you?

Dawson sells an Arched MSH for the 2011 but its sold out. Ordered the Wedge MSH to see how that feels.

Seems like I ran down this path with the Beretta 92X. A smaller dude like myself (medium gloves) would like the Vertec slim grip... nope. I installed the humped grips and that was much better for me.

On my 1911s, it really doesn't seem to make a difference, so as long as there's balance between the MSH and trigger length; my SIG GSR XO has a flat MSH and a longer trigger, where the Colt Series 70 Repro has an arched MSH and short trigger. For me, it seems that the critical factor is finger placement on the trigger, and which combination achieves that best. Other factors can be frame and grip variations.

Best, Jon

[foxj66]

So, short version - I have XL+ hands give or take, and I'm finding that certain firearms/grips leave me at the point where my support hand isn't making contact with the firearm at all...which means recoil control isn't all that great.

An example of this - a Beretta PX4 Compact with the large backstrap and grip tape on it; if I grip it with my strong hand firing grip ready for my support hand to meet it, if I take a dummy 45ACP cartridge, I cannot grip or squeeze it in the space between my index and ring fingers, and the meat of my thumb. I can't even orient them in such a way where that's possible; there's plenty of support hand grip space available on the gun for the support hand to make contact with the grip/frame without needing to move anything on my shooting hand.

However if I try this on a CZ75/P01, I can very easily take control of and pick up a 45acp dummy by squeezing it between my strong hand middle/ring finger and the meat of my thumb, while in a shooting grip, without adjusting anything. Since my support hand isn't made of silicone putty, it basically never touches the grip/frame...it just can't really squeeze in the tiny amount of available grip space on the support hand side of the gun. Not unless I back the rear of my shooting hand off the backstrap a bit to let my support hand wedge in and make contact with the support side, which is what I wind up doing.

On a 1911 with a flat mainspring housing, I can grip the dummy 45 with a slight shooting hand adjustment; with the arched mainspring housing, I can only grip it if I mess up my grip a lot. Same with a Beretta 92 (NON-Vertec); it's only if I deliberately crowd the frame into a grip I wouldn't normally shoot with that I can pinch the 45 dummy round between finger and meat.

Anyway - the reason for this - I bought the aforementioned P01 ages ago; I like the CZ platform, I like that it's a decocker without a thumb safety; I like that it's G19+- sized with 14+1 (or more depending on mag size); I like that it's millable for an optic; and I like that you can mount a light to it. I spent a good bit of money on CGW bits and making some improvements to it like sights; DA pull is around 7.5 pounds and SA is a mushy 3lb (which is fine for me, I'm not shooting this in bullseye). I found though that whenever I took it out for practice, it was pretty difficult to keep total control over it; it would move around a lot under recoil...because the rear of my shooting hand was backed off the backstrap so my support hand could make contact with the grip. I also found that often after a few mags at the range, my support hand kept just slipping off no matter what I did since there was so little real estate for it to lock into on the gun.

Am I overthinking this? Is this something I should just work/train around, or is this something I should actually pay attention to and try to fit things to me, vs fit me to things? I've been trying to whittle down and remove things that I just can't make work for me, but there's this nagging voice in the back of my head saying 'Don't sell this stuff, it's a "you" problem and not a problem with the tool'..

Visual examples (all firearms rendered safe before photographing):



I would say you are correct that the grip is too small for your hands. You have no space for the weak hand to make contact with the gun. You might get there trying some thicker grips like the LOK palmswells and I think they can make them extra wide.

You are going to shoot better if the gun fits you better.

[rayrevolver]

On my 1911s, it really doesn't seem to make a difference, so as long as there's balance between the MSH and trigger length; my SIG GSR XO has a flat MSH and a longer trigger, where the Colt Series 70 Repro has an arched MSH and short trigger. For me, it seems that the critical factor is finger placement on the trigger, and which combination achieves that best. Other factors can be frame and grip variations.

Best, Jon

Thank you.

After years with Glocks there is a lot to learn about 1911s and 2011s. I think I need the hump, like on a G26, to really get on with these things speed wise.

[CraigS]

In addition to trigger reach there can also be a left/right component. My wife carries a G19-4. We don't like it much but both can shoot it fine. I got a PX4compact thinking it might replace the G19. First range trip she always shot 4-5 inches to the right at 30 ft. I was fine. Next trip I made sure to bring all the different grip panels. None fixed the right. So I assume that, as the impact hits one's hand, the internal structure may react differently in different people. I noticed, when looking at LOK grips website for Beretta 92s, that they offer palm swell versions. And they even display the option of having a palm swell on one side only. This grip stuff can get very interesting.

[JonInWA]

In addition to trigger reach there can also be a left/right component. My wife carries a G19-4. We don't like it much but both can shoot it fine. I got a PX4compact thinking it might replace the G19. First range trip she always shot 4-5 inches to the right at 30 ft. I was fine. Next trip I made sure to bring all the different grip panels. None fixed the right. So I assume that, as the impact hits one's hand, the internal structure may react differently in different people. I noticed, when looking at LOK grips website for Beretta 92s, that they offer palm swell versions. And they even display the option of having a palm swell on one side only. This grip stuff can get very interesting.

Hmmm, HK might be on to something.....

Best, Jon

[rayrevolver]

Of course the arched was out of stock the night I ordered, but in stock today. I ended up ordering a Dawson "Wedge" MSH, according to the internet is in-between the flat and arched.

This thing need to be fitted on both sides, it was too long and interfered with the grip safety. And then the hole for pin was offset and I needed to use a round file to hog it out a little. It was the same story in 2 other grips, so as best I can verify the part was a touch off.

Also, it does not work with Dawsons Tactical magwell. Looks like I could file the magwell but not going to bother in the short term.

I missed my window to shoot today, but in dry fire this seems like an ok solution to bring the muzzle up. I am going to shoot this setup and see how it feels and then decide on the arched or not.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52598527511_0d4a466811_c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/151953216@N05/8sLb0e4LEf)

[GlockenSpiel]

I've realized I have big hands with long fingers, and bigger, fatter grips are better. I got side-tracked into thinking maybe I shot some guns better because of single action triggers or they were hammer-fired or a better sight radius or whatever. For example, I shoot the Beretta 92 better than just about anything, but it has that baseball bat barrel sized grip. I don't shoot smaller, more concealable DA/SA handguns nearly as well, and most slimline guns just end up swimming in my hands when firing, even when I think I have the ideal grip figured out.

A proper-sized grip makes everything much easier for both accuracy and recoil control. Though I will say that sometimes a large grip that is ideal for two hands can cause issues with the heel of the grip squirming out from your hand when shooting one-handed, so always confirm you can shoot both ways with a defensive gun.

Going forward I'm going to be experimenting with rubber overgrips for my non concealed carry Glocks, and shifting away from slim 9mms to something like a Glock 26 for concealed carry, just to get a fatter and (for me) more ergonomic grip.

[4RNR]

I've realized I have big hands with long fingers, and bigger, fatter grips are better. I got side-tracked into thinking maybe I shot some guns better because of single action triggers or they were hammer-fired or a better sight radius or whatever. For example, I shoot the Beretta 92 better than just about anything, but it has that baseball bat barrel sized grip. I don't shoot smaller, more concealable DA/SA handguns nearly as well, and most slimline guns just end up swimming in my hands when firing, even when I think I have the ideal grip figured out.

A proper-sized grip makes everything much easier for both accuracy and recoil control. Though I will say that sometimes a large grip that is ideal for two hands can cause issues with the heel of the grip squirming out from your hand when shooting one-handed, so always confirm you can shoot both ways with a defensive gun.

Going forward I'm going to be experimenting with rubber overgrips for my non concealed carry Glocks, and shifting away from slim 9mms to something like a Glock 26 for concealed carry, just to get a fatter and (for me) more ergonomic grip.I've tried a few of those rubber grip sleeve things. Glock 43, HK USP 45 compact and a few others. My luck.....they never stay put. Always shifting or sliding off

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[mizer67]

I've tried a few of those rubber grip sleeve things. Glock 43, HK USP 45 compact and a few others. My luck.....they never stay put. Always shifting or sliding off

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

I generally hate the rubber overmolded grip thingy's that are out there. However, for my G48 the small grip + large hand combo just wasn't working like I would like, so I put on a Houge rubber grip that seems to be working out fine so far. No movement and it fills my hand a lot better so the gun isn't squirming around as much and the trigger reach is a bit better.

I generally put the large backstrap on my Glocks and still think I could use one slightly larger for trigger reach issues for reference.

Not sure if I'll move back to a G19. The G48 still carries better in my almost-always T-shirt and shorts weather locale.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I've tried a few of those rubber grip sleeve things. Glock 43, HK USP 45 compact and a few others. My luck.....they never stay put. Always shifting or sliding off



I generally hate the rubber overmolded grip thingy's that are out there. However, for my G48 the small grip + large hand combo just wasn't working like I would like, so I put on a Houge rubber grip that seems to be working out fine so far. No movement and it fills my hand a lot better so the gun isn't squirming around as much and the trigger reach is a bit better.


I'm going from memory, and I've slept a few times since then, but I recall some LE training class in which I'm almost positive it was this incident that was referred to:

https://www.odmp.org/officer/17454-police-officer-james-l-davis-jr

We were told that Davis used a slip-on grip sleeve, and one was found on the ground at the scene. It was speculated that the suspect pulled the gun right out of the grip sleeve while it was in Davis' hand. No proof. No witnesses. But food for thought when considering one.

[mizer67]

I'm going from memory, and I've slept a few times since then, but I recall some LE training class in which I'm almost positive it was this incident that was referred to:

https://www.odmp.org/officer/17454-police-officer-james-l-davis-jr

We were told that Davis used a slip-on grip sleeve, and one was found on the ground at the scene. It was speculated that the suspect pulled the gun right out of the grip sleeve while it was in Davis' hand. No proof. No witnesses. But food for thought when considering one.

Thanks for the feedback.

It seems improbable, but good thought exercise if the juice is worth the squeeze (improved performance vs. risk in a grapple).

[TDoor]

Bit of a ghetto solution, but I thought this might be of value to somebody. My hands aren't meaty, but I do have long alien fingers. This posed a problem for me dealing with P365s, as they have an obnoxiously small grip, so I could not get consistent trigger placement upon drawing. And unfortunately, despite Sig marketing these guns as "modular", and the ridiculous amount of aftermarket frames out there, none of them really substantially increase trigger reach.

So I just added several layers of hockey tape to the backstrap, and then several more horizontal layers to increase the trigger reach and hold down the backstrap layers. It looks stupid, but it really did help. The hockey tape actually strikes a really great balance between slip-resistance and comfort against skin when carried, especially when I get sweaty.

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[Joe S]

Question for the pros: along these lines, how about single hand shooting?

[UNK]

I wear a 2xl work glove. The best fitting grips for me have been the Sig 320 L grip module with the flat trigger or the HK
spiderman grip.

[TCinVA]

Grip is the foundation of your ability to accurately shoot a handgun.

How the gun fits your hand has significant implications for how you will perform with it.

Exactly how you deliver force to the grip of the gun is important.

Exactly how you deliver force to the grip of the gun has implications for how you can use your trigger finger.

How your hand fits on the gun has implications for how well your trigger finger can reach the trigger.

You are most certainly not overthinking grip.

A skilled shooter can shoot anything you hand him reasonably well...but that doesn't mean he can perform to his highest level with anything you hand him. Getting a grip arrangement that actually fits your hands properly will have significant impact in the size of your performance envelope.

[UNK]

I just recalled, and I do hope Im not misremembering, Todd shooting a Glock with a laser grip and he thought it would work well but the timer proved it was actually slower so “feel” isnt everything.

[Clusterfrack]

Question for the pros: along these lines, how about single hand shooting?

Good question. For me a properly sized grip is a compromise SHO/WHO. I manage the large grip with tricks like flagging or curling the thumb. But if I had to shoot single-handed all the time, I'd use smaller grip panels--especially on the non-shooting side--so my fingers could generate a more symmetrical clamp.

[David S.]

Two short Ben Stoeger videos on getting enough grip circumference.


https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsJJYkvMw3q/


https://youtu.be/9qI2Oapg1WE

[David S.]

I'm working through the same issues.

With the large backstrap installed, the CZ P-09 and P-07 gives me a 1/2" of gap between my strong hand and the meaty part of my thumb. The other polymer wonder guns are similar. The M&P 2.0 and P30 with large panels is slightly better, giving me 0.7". At this point, I think I'm going to want at least a full inch of gap.

Applying significant support hand pressure tends to push my strong hand fingers forward off the front strap. Flagging the strong hand thumb reduces contact between the web of my hand and the rear tang.

I'll be experimenting with a Beretta 92 over the next couple weeks.

SeriousStudent

[Crusader]

Really good thread, glad to see it’s not just me. And I don’t have gorilla hands, I ware an XL glove but really my hands are not that big. But I almost always go with the largest back strap/palm swell that comes with the gun and even then it often feels too small. I bought a Beretta APX a1 on a whim and that grip even with the large back strap feels too small.

[LukeNCMX]

Another way to increase the size of a frame is grip tape. I heard about Vicious Grip Tape (https://a.co/d/e8Yvagq) on PSTG.us and bought a roll. It is extremely aggressive (probably not going to work for concealed carry) but it is nice and thick and stays put a lot longer than something like talon sandpaper grips.

[Evil_Ed]

Two short Ben Stoeger videos on getting enough grip circumference.


https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsJJYkvMw3q/


https://youtu.be/9qI2Oapg1WE

Yup, very much mirrors the conclusions I came to as well - trigger reach isn't so much of an issue as there really aren't too many guns out there where the trigger's just to far out there...but the length/width of the grip for sure. I also found that just putting on wider/thicker grips doesn't work so great, for me - sometimes it does; like on a CZ P97, replacing the factory slim grips with the factory fatter rubber or wood grips makes the gun a lot more comfortable to shoot - but doing something similar on a CZ P01 or SP01 does not yield the same results...it just goes from the equivalent of having a furring strip for a gripping surface, to having a small hatchet handle as a gripping surface..

[David S.]

I wonder how much this thread has to do with RJ starting this thread: Hand Length to Gun Fit: A Case Study. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?57747-Hand-Length-to-Gun-Fit-A-Case-Study-RFI-for-Data-on-Hand-Size-(Part-1))

At 8.5" in length, my hand size is probably in the 90th + percentile.

Specifically I'm looking for a grip that gives me at least 3/4" between my middle finger tip and the drumstick of my thumb when the web is fully wrapped around the rear tang. (I suspect this a proportion thing. Someone with smaller hands may not that much room)

That led me to experiment with an M&P with large backstraps and now Beretta 92s with extra wide, aftermarket grip panels. Both are an improvement over the polymer CZ's I was shooting before.

CZ P-09 (large backstrap) gives me 1/2" of space for my support hand.

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M&P 2.0 (large backstrap) gives me 5/8" of space for my support hand.

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Beretta 92 (stock panels) gives me a noticeable 1/16" above the M&P 2.0. Sorry, no pics yet.

With the Beretta, I'm getting really close to not feeling like I'm fighting for support hand real estate on the grip. I have Palm Swell grips (https://lokgrips.com/beretta-92-palm-swell-veloce/) inbound from LOK Grips that add just a bit more girth below the trigger guard, but their slim up top. I'm optimistic about how they'll fit me.

A side experiment: I cut up an old necktie and used hockey tape to attach them to the grip. Adding material to the front strap and back strap seems more effective at improving grip circumference than adding material to the side panels.

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[RJ]

I wonder how much this thread has to do with RJ starting this thread: Hand Length to Gun Fit: A Case Study. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?57747-Hand-Length-to-Gun-Fit-A-Case-Study-RFI-for-Data-on-Hand-Size-(Part-1))



No, but you *are* one of the few people who could not stand up all the way inside the Airstream. :cool:

Kidding. Thanks for the tag. I’ll definitely peruse this thread for ideas.

[JCN]

trigger reach isn't so much of an issue as there really aren't too many guns out there where the trigger's just to far out there...

The reverse winds up being tough for me.

A Kahr PM9 is the same grip size as a P365 but is much less shootable to me because the trigger break is so far inboard.

Like my trigger finger almost closes into a full fist to get to the break.

So I know that measurement matters a lot to me.

[Evil_Ed]

The reverse winds up being tough for me.

A Kahr PM9 is the same grip size as a P365 but is much less shootable to me because the trigger break is so far inboard.

Like my trigger finger almost closes into a full fist to get to the break.

So I know that measurement matters a lot to me.

Exactly - it's like trying to crush an M&M placed against the front of a broom stick with your trigger finger, while gripping said broom stick. So many otherwise fantastic guns were sent down the road because of that..

[JCN]

Exactly - it's like trying to crush an M&M placed against the front of a broom stick with your trigger finger, while gripping said broom stick. So many otherwise fantastic guns were sent down the road because of that..

I suspect that’s why the P365 is much more shootable than a number of other Micro guns.

The backstrap to trigger break distance is similar to a G19.

Some extra variables I use (when available) to fit my hand and trigger ergos to a gun are the shape of the trigger to change the break distance, backstrap thickness to change the break distance and the WIDTH of the grip when available (like on metal CZs) to change my requirement for break distance (if the trigger finger is wrapped around a thicker circumference then I can make a shorter break distance work).

[rdtompki]

I've been shooting 1911s for 8+ years and while I love the gun I've never been completely happy with the size of the grip having fairly large hands, between L and XL glove size. I'm currently using .032" grip shims. When I transitioned to a red dot I was determined to overwhelm the dot with grip, but the harder I gripped the gun the greater the difficulty in keeping the dot in sight during transitions. I settled on a strong right hand, weak hand grip sufficient for the mild recoil with soft Steel Challenge ammo, and things improved dramatically.

I carry a C2 and thought to try that in practice. Grip problems disappeared. Plenty of room for my left hand which meant that the strength of that grip, in proper placement, didn't upset the stability of my sight picture. Take a shot, transition eyes to the next target, dot arrives on target as expected. This really brought home the importance of grip size on performance. Now, my only problem is buying a second C2 for carry.

I had previously thought that the ideal single stack gun would be a 1911 with a 2011 grip. Anyone out there want to make an adapter for 2011's to allow use of a single-stack magazine? Or just a custom 2011 grip for SS?

[jd950]

So, what do you folks think is an ideal amount of space on the grip for the support hand? I have large hands but short fingers. On an m&p compact, the large panel gives me about 1.25" of open space and the medium/large is about 1". I tend to prefer the large so my support palm has a lot of space to lock in.

[CraigS]

This grip stuff has been a lot of fun for me since I got my 92X Defensive. I don't care for the straight backstrap so I have been through 3-4 versions of adapting a shape like a standard 92fs backstrap. This final version is a hard plastic wrap around conversion grip for a standard 92x where I cut the sides completely away and used JCNs recommended E6000 to glue it to the back of the grip. Then I got LOK thin grip panels for a standard fs and made them fit so they partially contain the added hump. And I thinned the panels down even more to make hitting the mag release easier. I add some sandpaper surface grip tape front and back. One of my other pistols has the mag baseplate extend forward just a little to form a bit of a flare at the bottom of the front strap which I like. So how to mimic that? Pebble surface plastic tape cut to 1/4" wide and wrapped all the way around the bottom of the grip twice did it.
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[RJ]

So, what do you folks think is an ideal amount of space on the grip for the support hand? I have large hands but short fingers. On an m&p compact, the large panel gives me about 1.25" of open space and the medium/large is about 1". I tend to prefer the large so my support palm has a lot of space to lock in.

Here's something you can try: Measure your Hand Length, palm to tip of middle finger:

109027

...then choose a Gun Size that is 0.9 times that value. For example:

Hand Length = 7.5", Gun Size would be 7.5 * 0.9 = 6 3/4".

Gun Size is defined as: the shortest distance around the entirety of the grip/stocks, including the trigger, measured along an axis from the rear of the grip at the “web of hand” position, to the vertical mid-point of the trigger face, and back.

109028

[Clusterfrack]

So, what do you folks think is an ideal amount of space on the grip for the support hand? I have large hands but short fingers. On an m&p compact, the large panel gives me about 1.25" of open space and the medium/large is about 1". I tend to prefer the large so my support palm has a lot of space to lock in.

Many top competitive shooters recommend choosing the largest gun or grip panels that still allow an acceptable trigger press. So, while @RJ's guidelines are a great starting point, trigger geometry and finger length also enter into the equation. As well, how you form your "master grip" with your strong hand makes a difference. If the master grip is not stretched tight into the beavertail, your hand will be effectively smaller.

[JCN]

Many top competitive shooters recommend choosing the largest gun or grip panels that still allow an acceptable trigger press. So, while @RJ's guidelines are a great starting point, trigger geometry and finger length also enter into the equation. As well, how you form your "master grip" with your strong hand makes a difference. If the master grip is not stretched tight into the beavertail, your hand will be effectively smaller.

To me, trigger geometry is THE most important factor of the grip and size relationship.

I don't care how big or small the gun is if the ergos aren't right for the trigger break and reset.

To the point where guns with customizable trigger geometry (like 2011 triggers) go a long way to making the guns usable for different finger and hand lengths.

[Clusterfrack]

To me, trigger geometry is THE most important factor of the grip and size relationship.

I don't care how big or small the gun is if the ergos aren't right for the trigger break and reset.

To the point where guns with customizable trigger geometry (like 2011 triggers) go a long way to making the guns usable for different finger and hand lengths.

I'd say if the gun prevents me from having a good trigger press, that's a dealbreaker. The Shadow2 without a reach-reduction kit isn't ideal, but I made it work for a while. I also shot the S2 with slim grip panels until I installed RRKs. The too-small grip was worse than the too-long reach. Of course that was only for the first DA shot...

Do you care where on your finger it touches the trigger? Or are you saying that it's only when you can't reach the trigger that it's a problem (that's what I'm saying)?

[G19Fan]

I'd say if the gun prevents me from having a good trigger press, that's a dealbreaker. The Shadow2 without a reach-reduction kit isn't ideal, but I made it work for a while. I also shot the S2 with slim grip panels until I installed RRKs. The too-small grip was worse than the too-long reach. Of course that was only for the first DA shot...

Do you care where on your finger it touches the trigger? Or are you saying that it's only when you can't reach the trigger that it's a problem (that's what I'm saying)?

For me trigger reach can be deal breaker number 1.

2 small of a grip isn't ideal either but can be worked around. I do have smaller hands vs most

[Clusterfrack]

For me trigger reach can be deal breaker number 1.

2 small of a grip isn't ideal either but can be worked around. I do have smaller hands vs most

I agree that if I have to shift my grip to reach the trigger, that’s a dealbreaker. But if I can reach the trigger, the grip is what I care most about.

[jd950]

I understand about trigger reach and finger placement and have no problem with that. I was just curious as to how much "open space" on the grip (for the support palm placement) people felt was ideal. Really just curious about people's preferences in that regard.

[JCN]

Do you care where on your finger it touches the trigger? Or are you saying that it's only when you can't reach the trigger that it's a problem (that's what I'm saying)?

I think I care more about where the stroke of (functional) travel is: break/reset location. Like the friction point of a clutch.

I don’t care so much where the pedal stroke starts… I care where the working points of the stroke are.

Hinged flat triggers are more difficult than curved for me to pull straight back.

Perfect ergos for me are an interplay of grip width and trigger break / reset location.

Like with an SAO flat S2 trigger I need thin grips but with a curved RRK DASA that breaks closer to the grip I need a wider grip.

[Clusterfrack]

I understand about trigger reach and finger placement and have no problem with that. I was just curious as to how much "open space" on the grip (for the support palm placement) people felt was ideal. Really just curious about people's preferences in that regard.

I like as much as possible, at least enough to fit the entire thumb base of my support hand.

[Gun Mutt]

Many top competitive shooters recommend choosing the largest gun or grip panels that still allow an acceptable trigger press. So, while @RJ's guidelines are a great starting point, trigger geometry and finger length also enter into the equation. As well, how you form your "master grip" with your strong hand makes a difference. If the master grip is not stretched tight into the beavertail, your hand will be effectively smaller.

For me, how well I can manipulate the trigger one handed is my priority, G19's, especially the gen5, do this very well in my L/XL hands, which tracks with RJ's chart. In a dynamic environment, I perform better with a G19 than anything else I've tried.

That said, I've fired my best and also longest shots from a stable 2 handed stance with my G20.3 specifically because I can get so much support hand on the larger grip (this is both on the range and in the woods). When I lived in MT, it made a lot of sense as my edc.

[JCS]

To me, trigger geometry is THE most important factor of the grip and size relationship.

I don't care how big or small the gun is if the ergos aren't right for the trigger break and reset.

To the point where guns with customizable trigger geometry (like 2011 triggers) go a long way to making the guns usable for different finger and hand lengths.

Agreed.

A lot of the 2011 triggers measure from index finger to top of thumb of base of thumb like this one. https://reddirt-usa.com/trigger-sizing-guide/

I think that's a better gauge for proper gun size than overall hand size or grip size.

The p365 with curved vs flat trigger both have the same grip size but the trigger reach is different.