Another 2011 variant... Oracle Arms 2311

[GearFondler]

Oracle Arms 2311... Never heard of them but I'm not exactly plugged in to the boutique brands. Uses P320 mags which on its own seems like an interesting idea.


https://soldiersystems.net/2022/12/23/oracle-arms-2311/

[spyderco monkey]

Looks cool.

And I support any sliding trigger pistol that doesn't have to use 2011 mags.

https://soldiersystems.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/img_9185.jpg

https://i.redd.it/te07k69d5s7a1.jpg

[mizer67]

Being left handed, I appreciate the thought that went into a right side slide release and reversable magazine release in a 2011 style platform.

[BWT]

Any idea on the lineage / ownership of the company?

Seems like a cool concept.

[JAD]

Their VP of product development is a young enthusiast who had the same job at Polymer 80, per LinkedIn.

[ECVMatt]

This one looks interesting to me. Being a lefty, I too appreciate the ambi nature of this gun. The frame seems a bit busy to me. Using Sig mags is a good call and a will pull in customers right off the bat.

The website is not up, but will follow this one.

[WobblyPossum]

I like the idea of using Sig P320 mags a lot. The P320 is probably the second most popular duty sized polymer striker gun after the Glock. There are a ton of guns in the wild so there are countless mags already in people’s possession.

[Jim Watson]

Good news, another XX11 for native 9mm magazines.

Bad news, they are all different.
Wilson EDC 9X - Walther tube, Wilson catch notch and floor plate.
Staccato PS - proprietary.
DWX - CZ magazines but different ones for standard and compact.
2311 - P320

[bac1023]

Good news, another XX11 for native 9mm magazines.

Bad news, they are all different.
Wilson EDC 9X - Walther tube, Wilson catch notch and floor plate.
Staccato PS - proprietary.
DWX - CZ magazines but different ones for standard and compact.
2311 - P320

…and the common denominator is that none of those are 2011’s. If it doesn’t use 2011 mags, it doesn’t seem to be much of a 2011, though they are all similar in concept.

[Jim Watson]

And they don't CALL them 2011s.
Getting AWAY from 2011 magazines is the common denominator.
Why shoot 9mm out of a .38 Super length, .45 width magazine if 9mm is all you are chambering for?

The Girsan-EAA is to be offered in all calibers and may be a 2011 equivalent.

[bac1023]

And they don't CALL them 2011s.
Getting AWAY from 2011 magazines is the common denominator.
Why shoot 9mm out of a .38 Super length, .45 width magazine if 9mm is all you are chambering for?

The Girsan-EAA is to be offered in all calibers and may be a 2011 equivalent.
Jim, they CAN’T call them a 2011. Only Staccato is legally allowed to do that. However, many use the 2011 design, which use 2011 magazines.

[Grouse870]

No glock mag variant?

[Trigger]

This pistol is interesting. I like the gas pedal. I will keep an eye on this to see if it actually materializes.

[Jim Watson]

Jim, they CAN’T call them a 2011. Only Staccato is legally allowed to do that. However, many use the 2011 design, which use 2011 magazines.

A trademark roundly ignored on the internet.

By corporations that have to worry about such stuff, we see two different 2311s, the Oracle and the EAA.
The EAA is a STI knockoff, they are even advertising Checkmate magazines "Compatible with most 9MM Double Stack 1911 models". Double stack 1911, ugh. But the pre-SHOT flyer on the gun shows it in all calibers.

The only place I have seen mention of the EAA Witness 2311 is on the Sig board, but EVERYBODY has EAA branded Checkmate magazines.
https://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/1910072794

That leaves 2211 open as a brand of yet another pistol of the sort.

The internet cannot get over Savage daring to bring out yet another 1911 mutant WITHOUT CHECKERING!
They may have missed the boat by not making it a high cap.

[glazer1972]

I’d like to see one.

[bac1023]

A trademark roundly ignored on the internet.

By corporations that have to worry about such stuff, we see two different 2311s, the Oracle and the EAA.
The EAA is a STI knockoff, they are even advertising Checkmate magazines "Compatible with most 9MM Double Stack 1911 models". Double stack 1911, ugh. But the pre-SHOT flyer on the gun shows it in all calibers.

The only place I have seen mention of the EAA Witness 2311 is on the Sig board, but EVERYBODY has EAA branded Checkmate magazines.
https://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/1910072794

That leaves 2211 open as a brand of yet another pistol of the sort.

The internet cannot get over Savage daring to bring out yet another 1911 mutant WITHOUT CHECKERING!
They may have missed the boat by not making it a high cap.
Yeah I have no interest in the Savage 1911. I’ll check one out if and when I see one, but that’s it.

[Jim Watson]

Yeah I have no interest in the Savage 1911. I’ll check one out if and when I see one, but that’s it.

I wouldn't expect you to, these are all mass market guns with no cachet.

[bac1023]

I wouldn't expect you to, these are all mass market guns with no cachet.

Well there’s plenty of mass produced guns I like and also buy, but it’s hard to get excited about another 1911.

[DaBigBR]

I'm curious about the percentage of proprietary parts on this one. Part of what makes the 1911/2011 system work is the massive amount of manufacturing and gunsmithing experience out there. You start making changes to parts and geometry and you are reinventing the wheel. Look at the EMP. Look at the early 2011s. Etc.

My assumption is that a 2011 trigger will fit around about any magazine out there, but the tapering double to single column magazine mean differences in frames including potentially less material around the frame rails.

But it is interesting.

[JCS]

I'm intrigued. But my first thought is that there is probably a reason why no one has made a 2011 that uses striker mags. The mags seem to be the most finicky part.

For example my 140mm Staccato mags only hold 20 rounds. But I can cram 22-23 into a 140mm Sig mag.

[DaBigBR]

I'm intrigued. But my first thought is that there is probably a reason why no one has made a 2011 that uses striker mags. The mags seem to be the most finicky part.

For example my 140mm Staccato mags only hold 20 rounds. But I can cram 22-23 into a 140mm Sig mag.

2011 magazines essentially taper to a 1911 magazine profile for the top several rounds. Most other double stack magazines are not like this, at least not to the same degree.

[Bergeron]

Their VP of product development is a young enthusiast who had the same job at Polymer 80, per LinkedIn.

Great P-F sleuthing!!

I'd like to check them out more, almost on this account alone. Small arms development needs time for anything useful and cool to achieve proper maturity and capability- like a kid with potential wandering into the workforce for their first time.

[Danjojo]

No glock mag variant?

Those or Beretta 92/M9, CZ, Walther, etc. would be preferred.

320 mags are almost as expensive as 2011 and likewise not any better than the cheaper ones up above.

[Jim Watson]

Might be hard to get a Glock magazine made for that raked grip to work in a 17deg angled receiver.

Otherwise, just whatever you care to mold or machine for.
Molds are expensive but I could visualize Oracle offering butts with magazine well dimensions and catch location for other brand clips. Or get 3D printer files written.

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/whQQ4_GQEKc

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[farscott]

More choices are good; however, I am not going to be an early adopter. Not because the Oracle 2311 is not a good idea; I think it is. I am going to wait because so few new manufacturers and their designs survive five years in this market. I have other choices in this market, including the original 2011 and the Wilson EDC X9. Both of those designs are from companies that have been around much longer than five years. The EDC X9 design is now more than five years old, and the 2011 design has been run in competition for decades. The 2011 design has a ton of aftermarket support (parts and smithing) while Wilson supports the EDC X9 with their usual customer service.

For 9x19 and similar length cartridges in a self-defense gun, the EDC X9 is great. For longer rounds, the 2011 shines. I also find that the older 2011 pistols are available for much less than the new models. A little bit of work and some new magazines, and the 2011 works well. I do still load long for the 2011 as the closer a round is to .45 ACP OAL the better it feeds. My 2011 .40 S&W rounds will not fit into a Glock magazine. And that is the big knock for the 2011 magazine. It only works well when the rounds are long. For short rounds, feed reliability is not as good and the grip is unnecessarily long.

Some company will win with a gun designed around a short magazine. It may be Oracle, but Wilson is going to be tough competition, especially at the high end. Staccato seems to be playing just beneath Wilson's prices. The Oracle offering is around $1700 to $2000 per some articles, so they are less costly than Wilson and Staccato. But they are three times the cost of a Glock. That is going to limit their market, especially as older 2011 models are available for less.

[Tokarev]

https://www.recoilweb.com/first-look-oracle-arms-2311-178248.html

[Tokarev]

The 2011 design has a ton of aftermarket support (parts and smithing)...

Not positive but I do believe the top end of the 2311 is 1911/2011 compatible. So it *should be* possible to use a 1911 slide, barrel, etc on the 2311 frame. Similarly, the hammer, sear and disconnector are 1911 parts. I assume the thumb safeties are 2011 pattern? So maybe not every single part will be available to custom smithers or armorers, etc but the major stuff will hopefully work with stuff that's already out there.




Some company will win with a gun designed around a short magazine. It may be Oracle, but Wilson is going to be tough competition, especially at the high end. Staccato seems to be playing just beneath Wilson's prices. The Oracle offering is around $1700 to $2000 per some articles, so they are less costly than Wilson and Staccato. But they are three times the cost of a Glock. That is going to limit their market, especially as older 2011 models are available for less.

I don't think Oracle is trying to move into Glock's market space. I think they are fully aware that this will be a small pistol in a much bigger market space. We'll see how prices shake out but MSRP on the base model is $1700 while the "Combat Elite" with the aluminum grip frame and slide lightening ports is something like $2600. If these two guns have a street price closer to $1400 and $2300 they will probably do okay. Especially if the QC and reliability is there.

Also, not sure what relationship Oracle has with Laugo but it sounds like they may be made by the same shop in Nevada.

[farscott]

I do not believe the barrels will interchange as I thought I heard "linkless" barrel in the SHOT show video. The marketing information also states the barrel is linkless. I wonder if the slide is machined in any way to start camming the barrel into and out of lockup. If so, the slides are not compatible. The top of the slide profile makes me believe the barrel lockup uses the ejection port like many other designs of the last fifty years. That leaves sights, extractors, firing pin stops, firing pins, and firing pin springs as possible upper parts compatible with the 2011/1911.

The other concern is linkless 2011 designs have been hit (Phoenix Trinity) or miss (Briley). The former seems to be good while the latter was known for cracking frames with very small round counts. The standard 2011 frame was weakened due to machining cam tracks for the barrel. I recently passed on a Claudio Salassa linkless build for a steal ($1350 shipped) due to this issue. Hopefully modern manufacturing techniques and Oracle have solved that issue.

[Tokarev]

I do not believe the barrels will interchange as I thought I heard "linkless" barrel in the SHOT show video. The marketing information also states the barrel is linkless. I wonder if the slide is machined in any way to start camming the barrel into and out of lockup. If so, the slides are not compatible. The top of the slide profile makes me believe the barrel lockup uses the ejection port like many other designs of the last fifty years. That leaves sights, extractors, firing pin stops, firing pins, and firing pin springs as possible upper parts compatible with the 2011/1911.

The other concern is linkless 2011 designs have been hit (Phoenix Trinity) or miss (Briley). The former seems to be good while the latter was known for cracking frames with very small round counts. The standard 2011 frame was weakened due to machining cam tracks for the barrel. I recently passed on a Claudio Salassa linkless build for a steal ($1350 shipped) due to this issue. Hopefully modern manufacturing techniques and Oracle have solved that issue.

The barrel has a cam that looks quite like the one used in the CZ-75.

The barrel and slide must be changed as a unit as they are not individually 1911 reverse compatible.

[Jim Watson]

I have seen mention of two other 2011 derivatives, one in the $1000 range by a company I had not heard of, the other $3100 from Vudoo.

[Tokarev]

I have seen mention of two other 2011 derivatives, one in the $1000 range by a company I had not heard of...


Girsan? That is being imported by EAA, IIRC, and is called the 2311. It is STI format and in that $1000 ballpark.


https://eaacorp.com/double-duty-witness-2311/

[Jim Watson]

Different outfit. I'll name it if I see the post again.

[Daniel Watters]

Different outfit. I'll name it if I see the post again.

You might be thinking of Live Free Armory's Apollo 11 pistol. LFA is supposedly a major OEM source of firearms components for nearly 100 companies.

[Jim Watson]

That's it. Yootoob blurb at
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x5JKveOz3Ig

[Tokarev]

100354

[Sensei]

The viability of this new gun is predicated on its reliability. If the P320 mags allow the gun to reliably feed standard JHP ammo, then they will sell a ton of these provided that the inherent accuracy is no worse than a Gen 5 Glock or P320.

[Tokarev]

Random SHOT pixhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230121/67021e5c00b14565494e08f73c0ebdd5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230121/94a0acd6db4c6d5151922c22d8be7a5c.jpg

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[Tokarev]

TFBTV media day video


https://youtu.be/UV0y8BoARJo

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[Bucky]

No grip safety, correct?

[Tokarev]

No grip safety, correct?Correct. Nope that one is missing from the exploded parts diagram. Also note the missing 3rd leg on the sear spring.

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[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/nPMU34DgGn0

[JCS]

https://youtu.be/nPMU34DgGn0

I am getting excited for this. The caveat being if it runs and price. I will wait to hear how it does. Has a price been announced? If it's under Staccato then yes, if not I'd rather go with proven platforms.

Edit: found the pricing https://oraclearms.com/

$2999 for the competition model.

[Tokarev]

The caveat being if it runs...

The possible advantages being that the P320 mags are designed to run SAAMI length 9mm and that the grip will be that much smaller in circumference.

I wonder if the ejection port and dimensions forward are close enough that it will run in light bearing ALS holsters and the Blackhawk T series.

[Tokarev]

Some minor news on the Apollo 11:


https://youtu.be/3RRPR9meAp0


https://youtu.be/McHe88xR5J8

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[Tokarev]

2311s are reported to be shipping. Does anyone here have one ordered?



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[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/pTSfEoy2ZJ0?si=w0M9NdxdC22MiWBD

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[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/sUp36glHqO8?si=gmJPvgLzRvlA4sot

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[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/yaf3OhmVwtw?si=y7m_mLnMDM3CMJN7

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/q-__VtV6AXA?si=CiLtM8-pnl9wYPFg

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[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/OTTvpuU5HDg?si=o2n34vnl8gGOg7la

[Chuck Whitlock]

I'm very intrigued by the compact.
While it's a little pricey for my budget, it's way cheaper than the Wilson EDC X9, in the same ballpark price-wise as the DWX compact, and the mag compatibility with my P250c is very compelling. While Sig mags aren't as cheap as Glock mags, they can also be found practically everywhere.
I can't think of anything in the feature set that I would want to change. I like that it comes with multiple plates...which include a forward rear sight blade. I could see exploring the red dot world with this.

I like that, as stated in the above video, there don't seem to be any reliability issues with the platform.

[Tokarev]

I'm very intrigued by the compact.
While it's a little pricey for my budget, it's way cheaper than the Wilson EDC X9, in the same ballpark price-wise as the DWX compact, and the mag compatibility with my P250c is very compelling. While Sig mags aren't as cheap as Glock mags, they can also be found practically everywhere.
I can't think of anything in the feature set that I would want to change. I like that it comes with multiple plates...which include a forward rear sight blade. I could see exploring the red dot world with this.

I like that, as stated in the above video, there don't seem to be any reliability issues with the platform.Have you concerned the AF1911? It is a compact that runs on G19 mags. IIRC.

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[CleverNickname]

Have you concerned the AF1911? It is a compact that runs on G19 mags. IIRC.
G43x/G48 mags

[Tokarev]

G43x/G48 magshttps://alphafoxtrot.us/1911-s15-3-5-9mm-qpq-nitride/

Shield mags for the model I was thinking of.

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[Chuck Whitlock]

Have you concerned the AF1911? It is a compact that runs on G19 mags. IIRC.



G43x/G48 mags



https://alphafoxtrot.us/1911-s15-3-5-9mm-qpq-nitride/

Shield mags for the model I was thinking of.

I was not familiar with that one. Thank you.

But I'm still more interested in the Oracle offering. My feelings might change once I get my mitts on one.

[CleverNickname]

https://alphafoxtrot.us/1911-s15-3-5-9mm-qpq-nitride/

Shield mags for the model I was thinking of.

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I was referring to the fact that it uses G43x/G48-sized 1.5-column magazines instead of G19-sized double-column magazines. I wasn't referring to the magazine's manufacturer.

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/Ssdv1ain23A?si=tBMctXXB_sr29myP


https://youtu.be/A2ZL5BkaG6k?si=_LsPmrDP8mMoGfBK

[Tokarev]

Humble Marksman's 1,000 round review:

https://rumble.com/v4a3zb0-1000-round-review-oracle-arms-2311.html

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/WwqlnoqYhgw?si=jvWXNnZT5iN1vJ7v

[Lon]

Finally found a shop that had one in the case. Seemed really well made and fit my hand like a glove. Had some sharp edges in the safeties that would need taken care of, but overall I was impressed.

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/9kZ8Ytwsv60?si=0iMfZHUlpqiYakse

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[Tokarev]

Finally found a shop that had one in the case. Seemed really well made and fit my hand like a glove. Had some sharp edges in the safeties that would need taken care of, but overall I was impressed.

The 2311 seems to be more "serious" than the Platypus although both are essentially untested at this point. I do like the "2011" frame used on the Oracle. Hopefully OD green, FDE, gray and other colors will be an option.

Hopefully the 2311 optic plate system is solid. Hopefully the company is also working on a 509T and ACRO option.

Anyone know what holsters might fit? I assume the PHLSTER or Werkz Origin will work fine with the corresponding light attached.

[psalms144.1]

The 2311 seems to be more "serious" than the Platypus although both are essentially untested at this point. I do like the "2011" frame used on the Oracle. Hopefully OD green, FDE, gray and other colors will be an option.

Hopefully the 2311 optic plate system is solid. Hopefully the company is also working on a 509T and ACRO option.

Anyone know what holsters might fit? I assume the PHLSTER or Werkz Origin will work fine with the corresponding light attached.That's a whole lot of "hopefully"s in one post! As the evaluators at the NTC used to say: "Hope is not an operational concept."

I agree though. I'm interested in both this and the Platypus since my shrinking retirement budget doesn't have room for a C2, and I'd rather have a pistol that costs a grand less and feeds of relatively inexpensive magazines. Did we discuss why OA chose to delete the grip safety from this design?

[Tokarev]

That's a whole lot of "hopefully"s in one post! As the evaluators at the NTC used to say: "Hope is not an operational concept."

I agree though. I'm interested in both this and the Platypus since my shrinking retirement budget doesn't have room for a C2, and I'd rather have a pistol that costs a grand less and feeds of relatively inexpensive magazines. Did we discuss why OA chose to delete the grip safety from this design?

Why did Atlas delete the grip safety? I guess these companies think it is redundant and unnecessary? I'd be questioning how these guns may or may not be drop safe without a grip safety (and the thumb safety off.)

The 4.5# trigger on the standard 2311 is probably okay. What about the 3.5# trigger on the Pro model? Is there enough inertia caused by a shoulder height drop if the thumb safety is off?

In any case, the Oracle is marketed as a duty or defense sidearm while the Platypus is marketed more as a range gun or competition piece. Marketing efforts aside I'd speculate that the Oracle is the more practical piece. The external extractor "should be" without drama. The 2311 also has a minor amount of modularity with the removable mag well. Ambi features should also appeal to a broader market. Do we know yet if the right side paddle on the 2311 is durable? And is there a gap or anything that may make it a snag point?

Personally, I think I'd spring for the 2311 Compact version and then add the full-size mag well. This should yield what's essentially a Commander. The dust cover on the Compact appears to be long enough to accept most weapon lights.

[psalms144.1]

Personally, I think I'd spring for the 2311 Compact version and then add the full-size mag well. This should yield what's essentially a Commander. The dust cover on the Compact appears to be long enough to accept most weapon lights.That's exactly what I was thinking, and then have the "range" size 17-round mag and the "carry" size 15 round magazine.

BUT, just like the Platypus, I hate the idea of plunking that kind of money down on an untested platform from a manufacturer who has, functionally, no history. Where will either of those pistols be in 5 years? How will one get parts/support should either company go the way of the dodo?

[Jim Watson]

Seems like most prospective customers will not stay with one long enough to wear it out, there will be something new long before that. "Look! Squirrel!"

I guess parts and service would be a consideration in the secondary market.

[Tokarev]

I guess parts and service would be a consideration in the secondary market.

I'd assume that as Oracle catches up with production, they'd start selling parts. Maybe not all the parts but at least replacement grip modules and things like recoil springs. Threaded barrels and stuff should be sold, too. That's assuming the barrels don't require a bunch of fitting.

I don't know if anyone has confirmed, but when I visited the Oracle booth at SHOT 2023, one of the reps told me the sear, disconnector, hammer, etc, were standard 1911 parts. I think he said it was also possible to fit a different 1911 slide and even a barrel with the traditional 1911 swinging link. If this is true that should ease some concerns about long-term support and replacement parts.

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[Bucky]

Why did Atlas delete the grip safety? I guess these companies think it is redundant and unnecessary? I'd be questioning how these guns may or may not be drop safe without a grip safety (and the thumb safety off.)


So the grip safety would prevent a trigger bounce style drop discharge. That being said, a properly designed 1911 trigger system should catch the hammer in the half cock notch in such a scenario.

My carry is an EDC X9, also no grip safety.

[Tokarev]

I just looked over both the compact and full size versions at a local shop. I don't visit this place often so timing was good. The kid behind the counter told me the guns had just come in yesterday.

Both guns looked pretty solid. Nice smooth actions. Good triggers, etc. Both are a little sharp at the back corners of the thumb safeties as previously noted. This surprised me as otherwise the guns seemed well executed.

I'm not sure why the compact model is $300 less expensive than the full size. Other than the length, the two guns seem identical. Same iron sights, etc.



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[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/pKUiK-hCXeQ?si=Hm-pXnv_UKgWmpE1

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[JSGlock34]

Why did Atlas delete the grip safety? I guess these companies think it is redundant and unnecessary? I'd be questioning how these guns may or may not be drop safe without a grip safety (and the thumb safety off.)

I suspect there are two factors - first is cost savings. Why fit, blend, and tune a grip safety if you can mold the polymer frame/grip module to delete it?

The second reason is that many customers seem to not care. Plenty of instagram warriors posting their 1911/2011 with a rubber band to defeat the grip safety.

[bofe954]

I suspect there are two factors - first is cost savings. Why fit, blend, and tune a grip safety if you can mold the polymer frame/grip module to delete it?

The second reason is that many customers seem to not care. Plenty of instagram warriors posting their 1911/2011 with a rubber band to defeat the grip safety.

USPSA does not require a grip safety, it can be absent or be pinned, whatever. I don't keep up with IDPA but I know they used to forbid disabling a factory safety, so if you didn't want it, you wanted a gun that never had it.

My competition guns have them active, but in a way they are stupid for competition, and people disable them just like slide stops.

Atlas is making range toys and competition guns, they aren't selling 6K pistols to cops to carry.

[seand1111]

This looks very interesting. I am very excited to see all of these new 2011 style pistols now hitting the market and getting reviews. Parts becoming more prevalent, etc.

[bac1023]

I suspect there are two factors - first is cost savings. Why fit, blend, and tune a grip safety if you can mold the polymer frame/grip module to delete it?

The second reason is that many customers seem to not care. Plenty of instagram warriors posting their 1911/2011 with a rubber band to defeat the grip safety.

Atlas doesn’t use a polymer grip.

Grip safeties are not necessary on competition guns and most of the top brands pin it.

[Archer1440]

Why did Atlas delete the grip safety? I guess these companies think it is redundant and unnecessary? I'd be questioning how these guns may or may not be drop safe without a grip safety (and the thumb safety off.)


Plenty of competition setups used in USPSA are either absolutely, or probably, not drop safe. Open single-action guns with 1.5# triggers, CZ Shadow 2’s with two pound SA triggers and extended firing pins, and P320’s with 2 pound trigger jobs and lighter sear springs all come to mind. And, a significant number of single stack competitors disable the grip safety.

USPSA and IPSC overall have an excellent safety record with millions of scores posted in the past 30 years, but there has been one highly publicized fatal incident with a modified Shadow 2 being dropped on a concrete surface. The other two fatal incidents involved a competitor hit by a rifle round (not shot as part of the match) that deflected from a rocky berm, and an IPSC competitor in Canada who tried to grab a fumbled pistol.

USPSA competitors in properly run matches arguably face far more risk simply driving to the match.

[JSGlock34]

Did we discuss why OA chose to delete the grip safety from this design?


Why did Atlas delete the grip safety? I guess these companies think it is redundant and unnecessary? I'd be questioning how these guns may or may not be drop safe without a grip safety (and the thumb safety off.)


USPSA does not require a grip safety, it can be absent or be pinned, whatever. I don't keep up with IDPA but I know they used to forbid disabling a factory safety, so if you didn't want it, you wanted a gun that never had it.

My competition guns have them active, but in a way they are stupid for competition, and people disable them just like slide stops.

Atlas is making range toys and competition guns, they aren't selling 6K pistols to cops to carry.


Atlas doesn’t use a polymer grip.


Plenty of competition setups used in USPSA are either absolutely, or probably, not drop safe. Open single-action guns with 1.5# triggers, CZ Shadow 2’s with two pound SA triggers and extended firing pins, and P320’s with 2 pound trigger jobs and lighter sear springs all come to mind. And, a significant number of single stack competitors disable the grip safety.

Apologies - I think my response to Tokarev is responsible for a bit of thread drift. I was commenting on the OA decision to omit the grip safety; Atlas is clearly marketed in a different direction and price level. However, unlike Atlas, Oracle Defense is marketing themselves towards MIL/LE/defensive use.

[bofe954]

Apologies - I think my response to Tokarev is responsible for a bit of thread drift. I was commenting on the OA decision to omit the grip safety; Atlas is clearly marketed in a different direction and price level. However, unlike Atlas, Oracle Defense is marketing themselves towards MIL/LE/defensive use.

Legend has it that the 1911 wasn't intended to have one by JMB either, it was a cavalry request, so it got added. The BHP doesn't have one, and it doesn't seem like Sig, CZ or Beretta feel like an SA gun with a thumb safety need one either.

[JSGlock34]

Legend has it that the 1911 wasn't intended to have one by JMB either, it was a cavalry request, so it got added. The BHP doesn't have one, and it doesn't seem like Sig, CZ or Beretta feel like an SA gun with a thumb safety need one either.

Wilson Combat also eliminated it for the EDC X9.

I'm agnostic as to whether a manufacturer deletes the grip safety. Presumably for service use such a firearm would need to pass agency testing as configured. I think if a defensive user feels the need to defeat a manufacturer safety, they're probably better off choosing a different firearm. YMMV.

[bac1023]

Apologies - I think my response to Tokarev is responsible for a bit of thread drift. I was commenting on the OA decision to omit the grip safety; Atlas is clearly marketed in a different direction and price level. However, unlike Atlas, Oracle Defense is marketing themselves towards MIL/LE/defensive use.

The OA 2311 isn’t a 1911/2011. It never had a grip safety.

[Sensei]

I’m also agnostic to the grip safety as it doesn’t meaningfully add to the safety of the gun when applied to combat or competitive shooting.

Far more important to me will be the track record of durability and aftermarket support. By aftermarket support, I’m largely referring to holster availability, with or without light, from major duty and concealed carry manufacturers.

Once we start seeing the aftermarket support and a couple-year track record of durability I’ll probably be a customer.

[Tokarev]

So the grip safety would prevent a trigger bounce style drop discharge. That being said, a properly designed 1911 trigger system should catch the hammer in the half cock notch in such a scenario.

If I remember the Series 80 evolution correctly, Colt went to a safety shelf instead of a halfcock notch to help prevent discharge in case the gun was dropped on the hammer with the hammer lowered to the halfcock notch. It was a common occurrence for people to carry a 1911 with a round chambered, safety off and the hammer resting on the halfcock notch. A drop from waist height was enough to break the halfcock notch and allow the hammer to impart the firing pin with enough force to fire the pistol. The safety shelf is farther forward so the hammer is almost at rest and is also more robust. Springfield uses a version of the safety shelf also.

Anyway, the upswept shape of most modern beaver tails should help protect the hammer in case of a drop.

[Bucky]

If I remember the Series 80 evolution correctly, Colt went to a safety shelf instead of a halfcock notch to help prevent discharge in case the gun was dropped on the hammer with the hammer lowered to the halfcock notch. It was a common occurrence for people to carry a 1911 with a round chambered, safety off and the hammer resting on the halfcock notch. A drop from waist height was enough to break the halfcock notch and allow the hammer to impart the firing pin with enough force to fire the pistol. The safety shelf is farther forward so the hammer is almost at rest and is also more robust. Springfield uses a version of the safety shelf also.

Anyway, the upswept shape of most modern beaver tails should help protect the hammer in case of a drop.

It was my understanding the FPS was to prevent a discharge when dropped on its muzzle, a discharge involving the inertia of a firing pin, not the hammer. If you consider that the manufacturers that decided to address this issue without an FOS went with a very light weight firing pin and heavier firing pin spring, it further supports that theory.

A properly designed and properly functioning 1911 half cock notch should not release if dropped on the back side / hammer side of the gun. In fact, the hammer shouldn’t be able to move forward without some rearward movement. That’s my understanding anyway.

[Jim Watson]

I figure that the "safety stop" hammer introduced with the Series 80 firing pin obstruction was to discourage carry in the regular half cock notch. There were years of cries "My hammer will fall from half cock."

I have seen hammers with both undercut half cock and flat quarter cock, Springfield, I think.

If dropped muzzle up, the grip safety should shield the hammer, if dropped muzzle down, a firing pin inertia fire will be into the floor. Alarming but not as dangerous.


I tried my own drop tests in various orientations from head height onto a linoleum over wood floor. Slight mark on the primed case but no Pop. Internet reports say dropping on concrete will cause inertia fire at much lower heights.

[Tokarev]

I tried my own drop tests in various orientations from head height onto a linoleum over wood floor. Slight mark on the primed case but no Pop. Internet reports say dropping on concrete will cause inertia fire at much lower heights.



Just going from memory the standard GI pin and spring gets you to about 3 feet. An XP spring will gain you another foot or two. The light firing pin and XP spring gets to something like 6 feet.

In a recent Staccato thread it was postulated that one of those guns had failed a drop test. I'm frankly shocked that Staccato isn't using a titanium firing pin in those guns. Maybe they are now?

Anyway, the tests all seem to be done with a gun with new springs. I'm sure we can easily start subtracting inches or feet once the spring has been in use for awhile. I bet a GI spring and firing pin is not very drop safe at all after the FP spring has had a couple thousand cycles on it. Another reason to use some sort of S80 parts.

At some height all these drop safeties will fail. I've not seen anyone test a S80 to failure but I'm sure it will fire at some point.



Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[Chuck Whitlock]

^^^^

I kinda dig that the MK III BHP incorporated a FP safety into the sear lever. Because of the design of the firing controls, they only had to change the shapes of existing parts, and do a little milling in the slide. But no extra parts needed.