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JCN
12-18-2022, 06:29 AM
https://www.ssusa.org/content/analyzing-the-7-year-history-of-uspsa-carry-optics-competition/

I had missed it when it was in the USPSA magazine but came across it here.

It was interesting to hear the number of new people CO brought to the sport and some of the reasoning behind some of the changes.
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Analyzing The 7-Year History Of USPSA Carry Optics Competition
A brief history of the USPSA Carry Optics division, by the numbers



USPSA痴 Carry Optics division started in mid-2015 as a provisional division. There were few optics-ready handguns on the market back then, and if you wanted to play, it would require getting your slide cut to mount the optic, or there were some dovetail-style mounts available. The firearms had to be approved on the Production division list, with 10 rounds in the magazine, a weight of 35 ounces or less with an empty magazine, and the optic mounted to the slide behind the ejection port.

By the close of 2016, there were about 24,000 members in USPSA. From September 2015 to the end of 2016, 16 months of reported activities showed that Carry Optics was just barely ahead of Revolver in results. This was 4,080 activities, 2.45 percent compared to Revolver at 3,711, 2.23 percent. Iron Sights were dominating USPSA with Limited and Production divisions combined for 62.58 percent of activities reported. Add in another 10 percent from Single Stack, and almost 75 percent of USPSA was combined in three divisions.

At the in-person USPSA board meeting in January of 2017, a thorough review was presented and there were a few things that were changed. It was decided to keep the division as provisional at that time. This would allow for additional review of the equipment and firearms, allowing for approved changes to meet the market and membership request. The other significant change was magazine capacity. At the time, a 140 mm magazine was permitted, but capacity was restricted to 10 rounds. This was voted on to remove the capacity restriction and allow competitors to take advantage of using the full capacity of a 140 mm magazine. The weight limit was increased from 35 ounces to 45 ounces the previous year, and although there was a presentation to review the overall weight of the firearms to 51.99 ounces, no action was taken by the board, with the next review to be done in 2018.

The USPSA Board met in February of 2018 with a full year of activities to review for the still-provisional division. Not only were things changing in USPSA, which saw a record number of new members join in 2017, but also in the industry. Optics-ready firearms were now becoming available from every major manufacturer and many of them were designed specifically for competition. Walther introduced the PPQ Q5 Match, SIG had the P320 X5, Glock had the Gen5 MOS models available and several custom shops were doing direct mill cuts for optic mounting on the popular CZ Shadows and Tanfoglio variants.

USPSA membership had now exceeded 30,000 for the first time ever. Limited and Production divisions were still at the top with 55 percent of the reported activities (Limited 31.5 percent, Production 23.8 percent), but Carry Optics was now at 6.5 percent. It was still growing, but what is really interesting is that in 2017, of the 7271 new members, almost seven percent of them went straight to shooting Carry Optics. Plus, 29 percent of the new members in 2017 also shot their first match within the first 30 days of joining USPSA. Of the membership that was classified in Carry Optics, a little more than 10 percent were new members. There were also another 994 non-members that were shooting Carry Optics in 2017. That is the kind of growth that needs to be looked at when considering what to do with a provisional division.

After reviewing all of the data from the results and the industry trends, the USPSA board voted to remove the provisional status for Carry Optics in 2018. The same was done for Pistol-Caliber Carbine division as well. The other changes that were allowed were slide-through cuts and the exchange of small parts for OFM or Aftermarket. The guns still had to be approved, which meant that every variant would need to have at least 500 quantities available and the paperwork submitted. A weight of 45 ounces with an up to 140 mm empty magazine, optic-mounted including plate, exchange of small parts and milling of the slide were now approved. With the provisional status removed, Carry Optics was a full division in 2018 that continued to see growth.

Reported activities in 2018 exceeded 10 percent of the now 32,617 members. By the end of 2018, 35 percent of all 8,526 new members had shot a match within the first 30 days of joining. More than 12 percent of them were in Carry Optics, with another 1,399 non-members shooting the division that year. Limited and Production were now making up 29.6 percent and 21.6 percent respectively, with PCC sitting at 11.8 percent and Open at 15.1 percent. The difference between PCC and Carry Optics, however, was the latter brought new members to the game. PCC only saw 6.8 percent of the new members shooting it in 2018.

The board met in 2019 and reviewed the divisions after the first full year of no longer being provisional for both PCC and Carry Optics. While some members may think that equipment rules were being changed every other month, that simply is not the case.

From the 2019 meeting:

的tem 15. Competitor and range equipment review-President & DNROI
a. Carry optics weight limit discussion: The Board reached a consensus to remain steady on current rules and allow the division, as it is, to develop and mature for a longer period of time before considering any rule changes.

By the end of 2019, USPSA membership had grown to 34,559. There were 8,912 new members that year, with 37 percent having shot their first match within 30 days. It was 16.4 percent that shot Carry Optics (in comparison, 6.88 percent shot PCC). There were 2,126 non-members also shooting Carry Optics in 2019, and it was now more than 16 percent of reported activities. Limited was still number one at 27.6 percent, but of that 49 percent was scored minor. Production saw another year of decreasing participation to 18 percent. There were some other things taking place in the industry in 2019 as well.

The guns that were now coming from the manufacturers had gained some weight. The new SIG P320 X5 Legion, the new Walther Q5 Steel Frame, CZ had the Shadow 2 Optics-Ready model and the Tanfoglio Stock II OR were out. By the time a basepad, optic and mounting plate were added. the guns were weighing more than 45 ounces葉he maximum allowed in Carry Optics. The other issue was that, based on the rules, only 500 had to be produced to be approved for Carry Optics, but to be approved in Production division, 2,000 had to be made and their weight wasn稚 an issue since Production allowed factory weight plus four ounces.

Basically, you couldn稚 get the CZ Shadow 2 OR model (it was 46.5 ounces, unless you cut the slide to reduce weight) but it was legal in Production as long as you didn稚 modify the slide. The Walther Q5 Steel Frame with basepad, factory plate and optic, depending on grips, may or may not make weight for Carry Optics, but it was legal for Production division.

There was definitely some confusion going on for competitors. Add to that the confusion on what models were legal and which ones were not. Remember, only 500 quantity were needed to be Carry Optics legal, but 2,000 for Production. Then take for example the modularity of the P320, the different slides, grip modules, etc. It wasn稚 just SIG with the P320; Beretta had the 92X variants, Wilson Combat models of Berettas and SIGs, now add ZEV Technologies, Shadow Systems and competitors building guns on P80 frame kits. How to make it less confusing, and keep competitors from inadvertently getting bumped to Open with the guns being built for the competition they were showing up to shoot?

The USPSA board meeting in February of 2020 had a full in-depth review of both Production and Carry Optics divisions. The presentations and minutes can be found on the USPSA website. Everything was on the table, literally; during the two days of the meeting there were various models of SIGs, Walthers, Glocks, CZs and HKs on hand, as well as many slides shown of all types of handguns in different configurations and modifications. Much discussion took place over the two days of the meeting.

Every board member reviewed the current rules at the time, and several different proposals were made with regards to weight, allowed modifications and how to bring the two divisions more in-line with each other. This would mean allowing more modifications in Production division handguns. Since many people may have already modified their Production-legal firearm for Carry Optics, it only made sense to allow the same type of slide modifications. Also, with many guns weighing more than 45 ounces being permitted in Production, it made sense to settle on a weight for both divisions. There can be many arguments about 59 ounces being ridiculous compared to the suggested 50 and 55 ounces, but the idea was for it to be a catchall for anything out there now or in the future. Just because it is the limit doesn稚 mean you needed to hit it either, although I have seen some go past it.

There was discussion that members like to modify their guns, and maybe with Production being more inclusive of modifications it would help to encourage participation in the division. Also discussed during that meeting was Single Action type of firearms being allowed in Carry Optic and Production capacity.

From the minutes:

泥iscussion led by Area 2 to allow single action guns in Carry Optics division. Failed by unanimous consensus without support or motion.

泥iscussion led by Area 2 about increasing capacity in Production division to 15 rounds. Failed by unanimous consensus without support or motion.

Failed by unanimous consensus without support or motion means that each board member as part of the discussion agreed that there was no support to make a motion for it to go to a vote. This was not the last time these two items were discussed. In the 2021 meeting, again neither of these two topics were moved to a motion. Also in 2021 from the minutes: 泥iscussion lead by Area 8 to create a single-action, slide-mounted optic division. Failed by unanimous consensus without support or motion.

The results proved that being more inclusive with Carry Optics was the right decision. Reported activities for 2020 showed that Carry Optics was now 24.01 percent compared to Limited at 24.15 percent, with a membership that had now surpassed 35,000 for the first time with 7,407 new members that year, and 25 percent that had shot Carry Optics as their first division. That was now catching up to Limited at 31.3 percent and Production at 24.4 percent. This also showed that being more inclusive with modifications for Production made it easier for new competitors. However, in 2020 there were more scores being reported as minor in Limited than in major for the first time. Other than the 斗oad your magazines up, don稚 worry about being competitive, newer members were showing up running their carry gear from appendix and many with gun-mounted lights.

With 51 percent results being scored minor in Limited, that trend was also happening in Open division溶ot as much, but 14 percent of the results in 2018 were minor, with some increases each year, such as 16 percent in 2019, and 17 percent in 2020 and 2021. Some of that was due to holster position; wanting to shoot your optic-sighted handgun from appendix meant you were in Open. Add a handgun-mounted light to your iron-sighted gun or your Cary Optics gun, hello Limited or Open divisions.

This was the basis for the change in equipment rules that took place at the February 2021 USPSA board meeting with regards to holster position and gun-mounted lights. Appendix was already legal in Limited and L10, Revolver and Open. A holster a few inches forward on a person痴 belt in Production, Carry Optics and Single Stack and they were shooting for no score or a bump to Open. This change aligned all divisions with regards to position on the belt. As for gun-mounted lights, there are always unintended consequences with any decision that is made. The issue here is was more about how it was executed in my opinion, not necessarily allowing them預lthough a boat anchor that weighs more than a Toyota Corolla with a penlight stuck in was not the intention.

USPSA membership remained right at 35,000 in 2021, but of the 6,758 new members who joined, 39 percent were shooting Carry Optics. Limited dropped down to 23.2 percent and Production fell to 19.8 percent. The reported activity showed that Carry Optics was also now the most shot division, with 30.8 percent of reported activities. Limited was at 19.9 percent and Production was now at 11.3 percent. Open division that had remained steady over the last several years at 15 to 16 percent was up a little at 17.4 percent. Carry Optics was also the most popular division now for non-members that were shooting, with 3,312 submitted results. Lower cost of entry, a wide variety of optics, readily available factory guns built for competition that also don稚 require special handloaded ammunition all contributed to the success of the division. The adjustments to Carry Optics since it first became a USPSA division have continued to keep up with industry trends and what most of competitors are looking for. Looking at how the division has grown, there is no reason to continue to review equipment rules for any other adjustments in my opinion. Of the 7,060 new USPSA members thus far in 2022, 45.3 percent are shooting Carry Optics. The numbers tell the story.

USPSA Carry Optics division continues to be the most participated in this year, sitting at 38.6 percent of all activities so far. The competition is stacked and the race has been on from club matches to the SIG Sauer USPSA Nationals this past September in Talladega, Ala., where 427 competitors battled for the USPSA National Championship title. In 2023, we will see Carry Optics again with its own stand-alone USPSA Nationals in June at the Cardinal Center in Marengo, Ohio.

Article from the November/December 2022 issue of USPSA痴 magazine. Photos by Jake Martens.

fatdog
12-18-2022, 06:59 AM
I had to quit uspsa in late 2011 because of health problems, I was able to come back and start playing in club matches in 2022 and of course in between PCC and CO happened. Those are the dominant divisions locally at the club level now. I do believe they have pulled people into the sport and likely kept some people in the sport.

Bergeron
12-18-2022, 01:49 PM
USPSA is the most accessible competition for me, so it's what I've shot the most recently, even if I love other sports more (bowling pins, for example).

If someone is new coming into the game, then I almost don't see why anyone wouldn't pick CO. It's the combination of easy button on the gun and ammo side, and the joys of high capacity and low recoil. If you're Limited, it's probably a long-load .40, if Open it's a Major .38 Super, and a pricey gun. A striker and dotted 9 is an easy gun to shoot, and there's a variety of affordable competitive options sitting under the glass at every gun store.

The only down-side tradeoff to CO is minor scoring, but as long as CO is a Minor-only division, then it's kinda moot for competitiveness inside the division itself, and rewarding to more careful shooting than Major. It's also (at least for us) the most popular for the local heat, so you see pretty quickly and clearly what "good" looks like in that division.

I'm all for anything that brings people in, and this seems like it's working.

JCS
12-18-2022, 01:59 PM
CO is so big they could split it into two divisions and it would still be the two largest divisions. Selfishly, I'm hoping for a second CO division that allows SA. Just seems to make too much sense.

JCN
12-18-2022, 02:02 PM
Bergeron

Locally, I think CO has reached critical mass. It痴 what the newer shooters see as the sport and how they壇 like to compete.

To the point where this year, a couple of our Open hotshoes switched to CO because they like competition and that痴 where the competition is.

I think they felt like their HOA overalls didn稚 mean as much when it was an equipment thing.

And people in general ignored any meaning of HOA because of equipment.

CO basically IS the sport locally.

I知 still shooting PCC because I hate reloading, lol.

Bergeron
12-18-2022, 02:09 PM
Ha, yeah, I've started shooting PCC as well, and aside from all the jokes (which I frankly enjoy), it's waaay more accessible of a place to get some long gun shooting in that isn't a 3 hour drive away.

I've decided that I'm gonna alternate shooting matches Glock-1911-PCC, just to ensure I don't get too good with any one of them. ;)

And- really- so I have a friend who is embracing firearms ownership and recreation, and his new shiny VP9 with a dot is screaming at him to go to a match and shoot CO.

JCN
12-20-2022, 09:04 AM
98692

This was a recent local match for us.

Note that I think almost all the 徹pen shooters were actually CO shooters with some small thing that put them in Open like a magwell or something like that.

Jim Watson
12-20-2022, 10:32 AM
Long ago, a writer said the modern rifle would not be fully developed until it was made with one hole to put ammo in and another with lenses. No screws and Loctite.

A friend's factory installed optic came adrift. He stuck it back down and was distraught that it no longer cow witnessed with the irons.

Artemas2
12-20-2022, 11:10 AM
CO is boring, I can't wait for some "retro nostalgia" to come back and make the game interesting again:p
The past few locals have been 30+ dot shooters to myself and one other dude shooting either limited or production.
At this point I might just say F*** it and either take a break for a season or switch to revolver...

JCN
12-20-2022, 04:48 PM
CO is boring, I can't wait for some "retro nostalgia" to come back and make the game interesting again:p
The past few locals have been 30+ dot shooters to myself and one other dude shooting either limited or production.
At this point I might just say F*** it and either take a break for a season or switch to revolver...

Clusterfrack felt like that but now he痴 seen the light, lol.

I think he still likes production though.

Clusterfrack
12-20-2022, 05:16 PM
Yeah, I still think Production is the best game. I am sold on RDS for carry. So even if I went back to Production, I'd still shoot CO to stay in practice with a dot. But I'm having fun with CO, even though the 23+1 mag capacity requirement is annoying for multiple reasons.

I am seeing a lot of people getting good fast with CO. That wasn't the case with Production, which seems to require more work to be competitive--at least at up to A class. At M/GM, CO is highly competitive and I'm still struggling to get to where I want to be.


Clusterfrack felt like that but now he痴 seen the light, lol.

I think he still likes production though.


CO is boring, I can't wait for some "retro nostalgia" to come back and make the game interesting again:p
The past few locals have been 30+ dot shooters to myself and one other dude shooting either limited or production.
At this point I might just say F*** it and either take a break for a season or switch to revolver...

JCN
12-20-2022, 05:19 PM
I am seeing a lot of people getting good fast with CO.

Because undeniably, it痴 a better training tool. :D

Super77
12-24-2022, 08:22 AM
This was a recent local match for us.

Note that I think almost all the 徹pen shooters were actually CO shooters with some small thing that put them in Open like a magwell or something like that.

Who wants to shoot limited and have to deal with .40? Open guns are cool in an of themselves, but again, who wants to deal with them?

JCN
12-24-2022, 09:32 AM
Who wants to shoot limited and have to deal with .40? Open guns are cool in an of themselves, but again, who wants to deal with them?

The analogous situation was in SCCA autocross 10 years ago when they went from Hoosier race tires in the 渡ormal divisions to a street tire based classing.

They still had race tire divisions but they atrophied away to novelty level because of the PITA factor plus all the driving talent was in the more accessible class.

That痴 what痴 happening to USPSA now and it痴 not a bad thing. The sport IS becoming CO.

CleverNickname
12-24-2022, 10:52 AM
CO was the thing that got me to start shooting USPSA...in 2015. I got a G34 milled for an RMR in 2013 or 2014, and I was annoyed that I couldn't shoot it in IDPA, so when USPSA announced the CO provisional division I started shooting USPSA instead. Then I changed to Limited for awhile because I'd shot IDPA for a long time and at first CO only allowed 10-round mags like Production, and dammit I wanted to compete with more than 10 rounds in a mag for once. Then after I moved to Limited the BOD changed CO to 140mm mags, so I moved back and I've been shooting CO ever since.

I really think the mag capacity thing is a big part of why so many people have moved away from Production to CO. If Production 15 was a thing, I don't think CO would be nearly as popular as it is now.

Jim Watson
12-24-2022, 11:06 AM
Ancient history.
In the early 1990s an IPSC shooter here was using a Glock 24 with a very low mounted red dot, I think a Tasco.
No bovine sights, just place the dot and shoot.

That fell in Open, even without a compensator but the race gun market was not fully developed and she was not at a great disadvantage.

Nothing new under the sun.

Super77
12-24-2022, 11:40 AM
The analogous situation was in SCCA autocross 10 years ago when they went from Hoosier race tires in the 渡ormal divisions to a street tire based classing.


That痴 pretty interesting. It was about 15 years ago that I wanted to dip my toes into autocross but the tire thing was what ultimately turned me off. I probably could have afforded it, but it was enough ongoing expense and hassle that I decided autocross probably wasn稚 for me. I wonder if there are people in that mindset that are more likely to pick up USPSA shooting 9mm and a slide ride dot.

JCN
12-24-2022, 11:58 AM
That痴 pretty interesting. It was about 15 years ago that I wanted to dip my toes into autocross but the tire thing was what ultimately turned me off. I probably could have afforded it, but it was enough ongoing expense and hassle that I decided autocross probably wasn稚 for me. I wonder if there are people in that mindset that are more likely to pick up USPSA shooting 9mm and a slide ride dot.

Absolutely yes.

High cap CO was what let me start USPSA in 2019 and as someone that doesn稚 reload, having Syntech as competitive ammunition meant a lot to me.

There are a TON of parallels between autocross and action pistol.

Visualization being the main one. Knowing the course by walking it and executing it just like you walked it.

The better the driver, the more fleshed out and detailed the visualization is.

Instead of knowing what your car can do, it痴 knowing what your gun / shooting mechanics can do.

dogcaller
03-11-2023, 10:03 PM
But I'm having fun with CO, even though the 23+1 mag capacity requirement is annoying for multiple reasons.


Can you say more about this? By 途equirement, do you mean in order to be competitive at a high level, or something else?

I致e shot IDPA and similar outlaw matches over the years and I致e decided to take on USPSA洋y first match in 25 years is tomorrow morning, actually shooting my LTT RDO in CO. My (standard -sized) MecGar mags hold 18 rds. I知 not expecting to be any master competitor, but I知 just wondering how big a deal 5 more rounds will be. I don稚 know what I don稚 know.

GJM
03-11-2023, 10:05 PM
Can you say more about this? By 途equirement, do you mean in order to be competitive at a high level, or something else?

I致e shot IDPA and similar outlaw matches over the years and I致e decided to take on USPSA洋y first match in 25 years is tomorrow morning, actually shooting my LTT RDO in CO. My (standard -sized) MecGar mags hold 18 rds. I知 not expecting to be any master competitor, but I知 just wondering how big a deal 5 more rounds will be. I don稚 know what I don稚 know.

You will want 140mm mags.

dogcaller
03-11-2023, 10:10 PM
You will want 140mm mags.

Are TTIs the standard?


Edited to say, Holy Schmoley- $50 for an extension and spring? I would effectively have expensive STI mags, no?

GJM
03-11-2023, 10:20 PM
Are TTIs the standard?

TTI, Taylor Freelance, Springer Precision and Henning all make 140 extensions that I see being used in uspsa. I am not sure about which ones for the Mecgar Beretta mags. You might check the BenStoeger pro shop and see if they show them for the Beretta.

PS: looks like you have choices

https://benstoegerproshop.com/gun-parts/beretta/

cheby
03-11-2023, 11:43 PM
Are TTIs the standard?


Edited to say, Holy Schmoley- $50 for an extension and spring? I would effectively have expensive STI mags, no?

Yeah, the 140mm mags are as expensive as 2011 mags

Clusterfrack
03-12-2023, 12:07 AM
Can you say more about this? By 途equirement, do you mean in order to be competitive at a high level, or something else?

I致e shot IDPA and similar outlaw matches over the years and I致e decided to take on USPSA洋y first match in 25 years is tomorrow morning, actually shooting my LTT RDO in CO. My (standard -sized) MecGar mags hold 18 rds. I知 not expecting to be any master competitor, but I知 just wondering how big a deal 5 more rounds will be. I don稚 know what I don稚 know.

I shot a 24 round stage today with a single 24+1 mag using the new Rune springs and followers. Not doing a reload was an advantage.

I mean required to compete on a level field.

fatdog
03-12-2023, 06:39 AM
in my part of the world it is common for there to be one 24 round stage in a match, sometimes we see a short 20 round stage. But in general most all the field course stages are going to require one mag change for me. I have one MBX 23 rounder for my Glocks specifically for that 24 round stage because I can usually get through that one without a magazine change if I don't drop a shot. The rest of mine are the old Dawson or Taylor Freelance versions that give me 22 rounds with a factory follower.

If I look at how the stages are usually constructed locally I certainly could shoot most all of them with a factory 17 round mag and get one mag change. BUT the big deal about having a 140mm is the greater flexiblity about choosing/planning where that magazine change will occur, which is the great time saver. You of course always want to find that sweet spot where you are moving and there is nothing to engage during that movement to do that mag change. Simply more options for when and where to execute the reload if you start with 23 or 24 rounds in the gun or the 22 round reload, Vs 18 rounds in the gun or 17 in the reload.

Clusterfrack
03-12-2023, 11:24 AM
Are TTIs the standard?


Edited to say, Holy Schmoley- $50 for an extension and spring? I would effectively have expensive STI mags, no?

Yeah, those 140mm mags really put the "Carry" in Carry Optics /Sarcasm/...

The TTIs are fine, but I prefer Henning (and CZCustom). But, the springs and followers are important as well. I've had some reliability issues with Grams in my Shadow2s, likely because they appear to be repurposed 2011 springs and followers, not designed for CZ.

CZ Custom springs and followers, and the new MBX have the right profile and angle.

All this fiddly crap is a big reason I wish CO were 15 rounds max.

YVK
03-12-2023, 12:56 PM
Can you say more about this? By 途equirement, do you mean in order to be competitive at a high level, or something else?

I致e shot IDPA and similar outlaw matches over the years and I致e decided to take on USPSA洋y first match in 25 years is tomorrow morning, actually shooting my LTT RDO in CO. My (standard -sized) MecGar mags hold 18 rds. I知 not expecting to be any master competitor, but I知 just wondering how big a deal 5 more rounds will be. I don稚 know what I don稚 know.

You can totally start in local matches with 18. I and many locals run 23+1 but even for 23-24 round stages people would regularly factor in a reload unless the hit factor is very high. As mentioned above, it is more about when you'll have to do a reload rather than if. I have one 19 round mag that I still use routinely in matches.
Get a feel how locals build stages, that will tell you.

GJM
03-12-2023, 01:15 PM
Yeah, those 140mm mags really put the "Carry" in Carry Optics /Sarcasm/...

The TTIs are fine, but I prefer Henning (and CZCustom). But, the springs and followers are important as well. I've had some reliability issues with Grams in my Shadow2s, likely because they appear to be repurposed 2011 springs and followers, not designed for CZ.

CZ Custom springs and followers, and the new MBX have the right profile and angle.

All this fiddly crap is a big reason I wish CO were 15 rounds max.

The Rune set up has not been reliable in multiple Sig 320 pistols for friends and family -- occasionally they work but not consistently.

22 in the mag is reliable all day long in most CO 140 mags.

YVK
03-12-2023, 01:45 PM
The Rune set up has not been reliable in multiple Sig 320 pistols for friends and family -- occasionally they work but not consistently.



So far so good in my CZs but not much of a round count yet. I've not thrown away my Grams stuff though and I'm not pushing past 23.

Moylan
03-12-2023, 01:53 PM
You can totally start in local matches with 18. I and many locals run 23+1 but even for 23-24 round stages people would regularly factor in a reload unless the hit factor is very high. As mentioned above, it is more about when you'll have to do a reload rather than if. I have one 19 round mag that I still use routinely in matches.
Get a feel how locals build stages, that will tell you.

I agree and in fact I got started in local matches with 15 round magazines in my P07. It was fine. Because of the covid lunacy, it took me awhile to find bigger mags, and I eventually got some 19 round CZ75 mags that worked with the P07. I recently switched to an SP01 Tactical with 18 round mags. I just in the past week got ahold of a couple of henning extensions and can now stuff 24 rounds into the gun, but I never felt at all like my somewhat limited capacity, relative to the 24 round guys, was what was holding back my performance at matches! It is definitely true, though, that having more rounds in the gun gives you more freedom for convenient stage planning. At least, I assume it is, still haven't shot a match with my 24-round capability.

bofe954
03-13-2023, 09:04 AM
Are TTIs the standard?


Edited to say, Holy Schmoley- $50 for an extension and spring? I would effectively have expensive STI mags, no?

Also keep in mind that nobody is making any promises that their 140mm extension will meet the 141.25mm limit that is the USPSA mag gauge. If you are too long at a major you are now shooting open. You should find someone with a gauge before hitting a major with whatever you set up.

rob_s
03-13-2023, 09:33 AM
If someone is new coming into the game, then I almost don't see why anyone wouldn't pick CO. It's the combination of easy button on the gun and ammo side

Is it?

I ask that genuinely, not as a troll.

As someone that has dipped in and out of various competition shooting eras, who currently shoots PCC when I can get out there (due entirely to already having appropriate gun and the complete lack of required other support gear like holsters and belts and so forth), I would *like* to try CO. What I find daunting is that it just feels like the equipment isn't really there, and like I wouldn't know what support gear to buy.

Maybe that's because I participate in this forum and have been around a long time. Maybe I see reports of this failing or that being sub-optimal, and know enough to want to be able to future-proof any equipment I buy to some degree... I don't know.

What is that "easy button" when it comes to the pistol, the optic to install, and the other support gear?

ETA:
Also as someone that left the games and came back... It *feels* like the addition of CO and PCC are pushing stage designs to require harder shots? Maybe I just always sucked, and now feel like I would suck even harder, with an iron-sighted handgun but when I was shooting the games regularly I don't recall encountering very many shots that I felt I couldn't make or would struggle to hit with an iron-sighted G19 or (for awhile) CZ. When I attend matches today with my PCC there have been more than a few times when I've found myself thinking "I'm glad I have a rifle with an optic today, because if I had showed up with my G19 I'd likely be embarrassing the shit out of myself at multiple points in the day, perhaps as often as once per stage".

Bergeron
03-13-2023, 09:46 AM
I would caveat first off by asserting that you, like most all of P-F, are more experienced and more of a 菟ower user than most people approaching USPSA for the first time.

I壇 also state that there痴 difference between 堵enerally competitive equipment for the new USPSA shooter, and the kind of 電eeply optimized equipment that I would expect from someone really competitive with possibility of wins.

The first part of the 兎asy button is that there痴 no ammo reloading, that factory 9mm is all that is needed. No .38 Super Comp or long-load .40 needed like in Limited or Open. There痴 also low recoil and great sights. Almost all the popular pistols are coming with optic plates, and the current generations of dots are reliable and are not prohibitively expensive to acquire or complex to mount. I think most guns cut for optic plates also have factory extended-capacity magazines.

None of this is to imply that any modern plate-cut gun, or any optic are at the top of CO competitiveness, but pretty much any combo ought to be enough to get the new USPSA shooter in a happy place.

dogcaller
03-13-2023, 06:13 PM
Thanks, all. Lots of good discussion here.

So I shot the match yesterday. Had a great time and (relatedly) didn't embarrass myself--but also didn't cover myself in glory. Came in ~24 out of ~80 shooters, with CO definitely being the largest class. The comments about wanting 140s, but them not being mandatory were spot on. I have a few 18 rd mags and several more 15s. I arrived at the match with all loaded and the idea being to not need to worry about loading between stages--just grab and go. That didn't make it past stage 1. i found myself reloading and strategically staging the 18 rd mags because they provided me with exactly what ya'll said--options. I never ran one dry, but that's the point, isn't it? All but one of my 15s came home loaded with the same rounds they left with.

I do agree with Cluster that it would be better if they were limited to 15, for a variety of reasons. I'm working to keep myself from joining the club and then complaining about the rules. Still working on that, but not grumpy about it.

A chicken/egg question. Is the prevalence of ~24-rd stages a result of these 24-rd magazines, or vice versa (or neither)?

Some additional complications: The 140mm mags may/may not fit the USPSA gauge. WTF? Also, some do/don't lock the slide back. Some might fit 24 rds, but most don't. But if they do, they almost certainly won't lock the slide back. Do I have that right...?

Clusterfrack
03-13-2023, 06:38 PM
...I'm working to keep myself from joining the club and then complaining about the rules. Still working on that, but not grumpy about it.
Good sentiment. That's my goal as well, and I'm only partially succeeding :D


A chicken/egg question. Is the prevalence of ~24-rd stages a result of these 24-rd magazines, or vice versa (or neither)?
USPSA rule 1.2 specifies a 32 round max for a stage. I wouldn't say 24 round stages are especially prevalent, but when there's a 22-24 round stage it's an advantage to have a mag that can hold 23+1 or even better, 24+1. It's like when there's a "mag pickup" stage, it's an advantage to have a magnet on your belt.


Some additional complications: The 140mm mags may/may not fit the USPSA gauge. WTF? Also, some do/don't lock the slide back. Some might fit 24 rds, but most don't. But if they do, they almost certainly won't lock the slide back. Do I have that right...?

Yep, if you're going to a Level 2 or 3 match you better check each mag tube/extension combo to make sure it fits in the gauge. With CZ Mec-Gar mag tubes, every extension I've tried fits. Back when I shot p320s, I had to file the rear of the feedlips to fit the gauge with Springer extensions. I know a shooter who got bumped to Open at an Area match.

I don't use slide lock followers for 140's. I can't recall the last time I've shot to slidelock in CO.

YVK
03-13-2023, 06:39 PM
A chicken/egg question. Is the prevalence of ~24-rd stages a result of these 24-rd magazines, or vice versa (or neither)?



Doubt it. I dunno anyone around here who builds stages with number 24 in mind. If you think about it, stages with target arrays with 2, 3 or 4 targets will frequently arrive to 24 total.





Some additional complications: The 140mm mags may/may not fit the USPSA gauge. WTF? Also, some do/don't lock the slide back. Some might fit 24 rds, but most don't. But if they do, they almost certainly won't lock the slide back. Do I have that right...?

Yes. Some of this shit never ceases to amaze me. For example, I've never had any issues with passing the gauge, even remotely, with my Megcar/Hennings until last year's state match when the dude said it wasn't fitting unless he pushed hard enough to worry about feed lips...
I don't know anything at or above 22 rounds that would lock the slide back.

fatdog
03-13-2023, 07:30 PM
I think as stated above, 24 is not usually an intent, just an outcome of stage design.

23 or even 24 round magazines are the result of magazine geometry and the 140mm limit. In some platforms it is easier to get a 23-24 rounder that will run that other platforms.

This past weekend our sole 24 round stage had 3 plates in the course plus a Texas Star at the very end with two paper targets....no way was I coming into that final end port with just 9 rounds in the gun since there was a distance to cover to get there...came in with a fresh magazine although I nailed the star without a miss, but I don't think coming in with a full mag actually cost me very much time because it was an easy reload on the move.

More bullets = more options.

GJM
03-13-2023, 07:43 PM
Also keep in mind that nobody is making any promises that their 140mm extension will meet the 141.25mm limit that is the USPSA mag gauge. If you are too long at a major you are now shooting open. You should find someone with a gauge before hitting a major with whatever you set up.

Serious uspsa competitors should own (and use) a Springer Precision mag gauge that measures 140 and 170. $35

https://shop.springerprecision.com/mag-gauge-for-uspsa/

GJM
03-13-2023, 07:47 PM
Barring some completely hoser stage, with 12 close open targets, I don't know many shooters that would shoot a 24 round stage with zero extra cartridges available for a make up shot. In my experience, you are slower shooting carefully enough to not have a make up then, if you just did the reload and gave yourself the insurance.

YVK
03-13-2023, 10:48 PM
Serious uspsa competitors should own (and use) a Springer Precision mag gauge that measures 140 and 170. $35

https://shop.springerprecision.com/mag-gauge-for-uspsa/


NOT LICENSED BY USPSA. FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY NOT MATCH ADMINISTRATION.



https://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/Browse-by-Manufacturer/Dawson-Precision/Magazine-Components/EGW-USPSA-Official-Magazine-Gauge