Design Features of a 870/590 Shotgun WML

[Paul Blackburn]

We know what we don't like...Do we know what we want?

Integrated into the forend or add on WML?

Ergonomics?

Activation method and location?
How would you turn it on and where would you place the activation?

Constant on or momentary only?

Lumens?

Will it work with SBS models?

Anything else?

[perlslacker]

I think it needs to be integrated into the forend, or mounted to the forend. A switch needs to be easy to hit while the hand is in firing position, which means a remote switch, and running a cable between a pump handle (which moves) and the barrel (which doesn't move) is always gonna result in too much loose wire IMO.

On my 870, I have a Streamlight HL-X mounted to a GG&G adapter right now, using the tailcap switch. It works but it's less than ideal. I can turn it on, shoot things, and then turn it off, but using momentary switching is obviously a no-go. It's kind of awkward to reach the tailcap currently, but the light is also far enough away from my hand that the light doesn't hit my hand on recoil so I think that's an acceptable trade-off.

The purely utilitarian choice would be to get something like the Vang railed forend and mount a light directly to it, but I can't bear to take the police wood off the gun.

I have no opinions on lumens/candela worth listening to. I need more low-light experience first.

[Tabasco]

Any advantage regarding battery configuration, side by side vs. in line? I remember TCinVA mentioning batteries getting smashed in the in line configuration. I imagine with the back and forth action along with recoil, it might be more of an issue than with an auto.

[Paul Blackburn]

Given that all the available options are sub-optimal I'm disappointed there are no suggestions for what an optimal light set would be.

[Erick Gelhaus]

In reverse order ...

Given that all the available options are sub-optimal I'm disappointed there are no suggestions for what an optimal light set would be.
Let's see, it was a match day and we aren't even twelve hours since the thread was posted ...


We know what we don't like...Do we know what we want?

Integrated into the forend or add on WML?

Ergonomics?

Activation method and location?
How would you turn it on and where would you place the activation?

Constant on or momentary only?

Lumens?

Will it work with SBS models?

Anything else?

Looking at what the SF 618 line became, I'd prefer something that was not integral unless (& I'll come back to this).

Regardless of where it attaches to the forearm, I want to be able to activate it with both the thumb and the finger tips of the hand working the forearm;
I want both momentary and constant-on capability;
A clicky tailcap with a wired rocker switch at the end of a 6-8" cable would make me very happy. Hit the clicky with my thumb and the rocker with my finger tips. Limiting the cord length would hold it close to the forearm without much slack.

Lumens? 600+ but 70K+ candela from a reflector that'll give some spill but enough throw to get positive ID beyond 50 yards;

The set-up I envision with the above would work with a SBS.

I'd have the raised, curved mount that was recently shown here with a wired clicky switch. This requires a forearm (like the Magpul or the new Vang model) with Pic rail sections at both 3 and 9 o'clock.

[Paul Blackburn]

In reverse order ...

Let's see, it was a match day and we aren't even twelve hours since the thread was posted ...



Looking at what the SF 618 line became, I'd prefer something that was not integral unless (& I'll come back to this).

Regardless of where it attaches to the forearm, I want to be able to activate it with both the thumb and the finger tips of the hand working the forearm;
I want both momentary and constant-on capability;
A clicky tailcap with a wired rocker switch at the end of a 6-8" cable would make me very happy. Hit the clicky with my thumb and the rocker with my finger tips. Limiting the cord length would hold it close to the forearm without much slack.

Lumens? 600+ but 70K+ candela from a reflector that'll give some spill but enough throw to get positive ID beyond 50 yards;

The set-up I envision with the above would work with a SBS.

I'd have the raised, curved mount that was recently shown here with a wired clicky switch. This requires a forearm (like the Magpul or the new Vang model) with Pic rail sections at both 3 and 9 o'clock.

Do these components currently exist?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Do these components currently exist?

Yes. Though maybe not in the form I'm envisioning. But yes, they do.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Looking at what the SF 618 line became, I'd prefer something that was not integral unless (& I'll come back to this).


Integrating my "design" or vision into a forearm might not be too doable. However ... The Pic rail and pressure switches could be molded into the forearm. I'd like to see an integral electrical connection in the mount between the pressure switch and the light body. Think the "good" features Olight has without the bad outcomes they are known for.

And all of this might be vapor ware currently.

eta: Alternatively, mold a channel above the surface of a Magpul or Vang forearm with tabs that would take and hold the cabling as it ran from the light mount to the switch mount.

[Paul Blackburn]

Yes. Though maybe not in the form I'm envisioning. But yes, they do.

I tried the mount you're referring to on a magpul forend with a surefire M300.

The light extended beyond the barrel on the SBS.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I tried the mount you're referring to on a magpul forend with a surefire M300.

The light extended beyond the barrel on the SBS.

I can't recall if the SF P2X/P3X Fury I used on my issued SBS sat just behind, flush, or IFO the barrel. Regardless, it was not an issue for me and I probably used that for at least 10 of the 15 years I carried it.

[Paul Blackburn]

I can't recall if the SF P2X/P3X Fury I used on my issued SBS sat just behind, flush, or IFO the barrel. Regardless, it was not an issue for me and I probably used that for at least 10 of the 15 years I carried it.
In a ring mount?

[Erick Gelhaus]

In a ring mount?

A VTac mount onto a section of Pic rail.

[Lon]

Has anyone tried the Nightstick forearm?

https://www.amazon.com/Nightstick-SFL-13WL-Shotgun-Forend-Light/dp/B0B61T88CQ

[willie]

Playing with other guys' Surefire fore ends, I was not comfortable with the light itself moving back and forth and would have preferred attaching the light on the juncture of tube and barrel. I understand that this method of switch attachment may not be optimal when attaching mount to tube/barrel, but in a house gun I think this way would suffice.

[Paul Blackburn]

I dont believe there are any current combination of existing components to make an optimal set up. Even the $600 Surefire forend is lacking.

[gato naranja]

It will be a truly remarkable design that can accommodates the likes and dislikes of even the relatively small population sample on P-F. "Mary Anne vs Ginger" issues like having the light on the forend vs mounting the light on the barrel/mag tube make it pretty daunting.

As a guy who fiddled with a bunch of options and never did find the "perfect" one, I have settled on the Magpul OEM and a few available mount/light combinations that range from acceptable to good, so I have stopped actively seeking anything better. Not that I couldn't be wowed by something new down the road...

[Lon]

Sounds like we need a Bluetooth option - light that doesn’t move and a pressure pad that’s MLOK compatible for the forearm.

[Edster]

Integrated into one unit, snag-free, with no extraneous wires.

Momentary switches on both sides

A constant-on switch

Grip portion is grippy/textured. If you can't do this right, make it smooth and include a supply of "skateboard" tape.

Battery mounted behind bezel (Surefire) rather than in grip (Streamlight)

LED head. Ideal would be if it is replaceable with common handheld light heads but it's more important that it be durable

Robust, simple electronics and OFF means OFF, not a current-draining kinda-off

Needs to be able to survive hard use. That includes waterproof.

Under $300, ok maybe $350

This would pretty much own the marketplace. Unfortunately, that marketplace is probably too small to make it profitable these days.

[L-2]

9864698647
I've been good with my two older-style Surefire shotgun fore-end weaponlights (590A1 and an 870P); and one shotgun with a Streamlight TLR-1 mounted to a MLOK Magpul fore-end (870 SBS).

I like how, if needed, I can easily change the TLR-1 to another make/model (e.g. Surefire X300 series), and change mounting from left/bottom/right fairly easily, or even just remove it and use on some other firearm. Whether I use my thumb or other fingers to switch the light from momentary to constant-on/off is not a big thing to me.

The older Surefire lights have the on/off or momentary options (no momentary lock-out) now with LED bulbs replacing older halogen bulbs.

The current/newer Surefire lights are:
-~$350-$400 delivered
-have more switching options light intensity/system disable/ambi switches-both-sides
-are dedicated to the exact firearm (590A1 or 870)

Note, my old department never did put weaponlights on its Mossberg shotguns, but did supply weapon-lights on its AR15 guns with a momentary/tape switch.
I believe it was mostly a lack of budget and prioritization.
While I was there, we went from the 20" bead-sights; to 20" ghost ring sights; to 14" ghost ring sighted 590A1 guns.

Overall, I like the pistol light mounted onto a Pic-railed/MLOK shotgun fore-end.

[Screwball]

and one shotgun with a Streamlight TLR-1 mounted to a MLOK Magpul fore-end (870 SBS).

That used to be my go-to… until…

https://i.imgur.com/jY3eCT9.jpg

I think I have six or so TLR-1s floating around. One on my duty gun, one on my truck gun, so on and so forth. That one pictured was on my TAC-14. Only on that TAC-14 and had a little bit of use behind it.

I am aware of those latches being a weak point, but I can only attribute that failure to it being on a 12 gauge.

My answer was to look at other long guns and weapon lights I used on them. Came down to the Inforce WML and WMLx. The WMLx is the longer one, which I put on my 20” 870. The shorter one… went on the TAC-14. I like the controls and mounting a little better on those than using the TLR-1 (had an Insight M3X on the 870). Freed up some pistol lights for other things.

Streamlight was good with the warranty, and I still run TLR-1s without any hesitation. But I just stopped running them on heavy recoil firearms.

Off topic, but I wish there was a service to mill Gen 3 Glock frames to 1913 slot. Pulling those lights off the 12 gauges, I started fitting them on my other guns. Annoys me now that the only gun different than the others is my 34 Gen 3. [emoji2959]

[L-2]

Yes, I've also had broken switches on both my Surefire X300 and Streamlight TLR-1 lights by merely using them on handguns.
I found it a good idea to have at least one spare light or switch, whether Surefire or Streamlight (as I used either for work) and it took several days or over a week to get a spare switch (not good when needing a weapon-light with holster for work), but not the biggest deal to go back to old-school-methods for a week or so by switching to the old holster set-up for a short time.

In my specific cases it went something like this:

w/Surefire. Ok, no problem. We'll send you out another switch (for free:)). Me, a week later: Where's my switch? Surefire: Sorry, I forgot to send it. I'll definitely send you out one today though.

w/Streamlight. Your light is out of warranty but you can easily buy another one. Me: Which is what I did and it arrived whether via MidwayUSA or Amazon, I don't recall, within a few days.

I also probably have ~6 of these pistol weaponlights, usually mounted on various pistols, rifles, and shotguns. Work made it easier to choose brands by specifying only Surefire or Streamlight for these personally-supplied items. I didn't have to bother researching any of the many other brands out there.

[LJP]

For me, I want a light integrated into the forend that doesn’t overall change the ergonomics of the OEM forend and has momentary switching that allows activation both with a standard hold on the forend and with it held in the short stocked position. Oh, and it has to work on a SBS. If I had an understanding of CAD, as well as unlimited time and budget and access to a 3D printer, I would envision a dual head forend. Imagine having twin lights with essentially tail cap momentary switches, wired in tandem, at roughly 10 o’clock and 2 o’clock on the forward third of the forend. If you were to put, for instance, two Streamlight ProTac 1L lights on a stock Remington forend, nestled in in either side, that would be close in concept. Just with a lot more wiring and design. This would allow ambidextrous activation, and would allow activation if the hand position changed due to short stocking the gun. Plus, with two light heads, there is some redundancy. It would be necessarily wide, but balanced. I’m not terribly concerned with the light output, as for me, the shotgun is an indoor weapon.

[diananike]

That used to be my go-to… until…

https://i.imgur.com/jY3eCT9.jpg

I think I have six or so TLR-1s floating around. One on my duty gun, one on my truck gun, so on and so forth. That one pictured was on my TAC-14. Only on that TAC-14 and had a little bit of use behind it.

I am aware of those latches being a weak point, but I can only attribute that failure to it being on a 12 gauge.
]

That’s exactly what happened to my old tlr1.

After 10 years and a lot of rounds so I wasn’t disappointed with its durability at the end of the day.

It spent years on a Glock 17.
Then about 5 years on a Tac14
I reckon the 12 gauge did it in. But it had at least 500 rounds of shotgun shells through it before it failed.
Maybe not the most robust battery cap design but I might replace it with another TLR anyway.
That gun mostly sits in the closet now anyway for bumps in the night.
Most of my practice is with another TLR Racker equipped Tac14.

[willie]

Surefire 300 X series lights were designed for handgun use. The Scout series lights were designed for long gun use. I discovered this information while searching for explanations on switch and catch failures. As expensive as these products are, one wonders why the company doesn't improve switches and latches. I've owned two including a 300 acquired recently. I also have two Streamlights which I prefer. I favor their switches. My use is for a home defense weapon only. If I were a police officer, I might reconsider.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Surefire 300 X series lights were designed for handgun use. The Scout series lights were designed for long gun use. I discovered this information while searching for explanations on switch and catch failures.

I did not realize that was not widely known.

[willie]

I did not realize that was not widely known.

It was news to me but will say that I was uninformed. My weapon lights came to me in good deals as in like new and cheap. I bought a brand new Surefire 300 from a nerd for $180. I run hot and cold on using weapon lights which in my case would be inside my house. The 300 has a run time of 75 minutes, and mine went dead after playing with it in familiarization activity. I'm also in the ignorant category concerning red dot sights. 25 years ago I put different ones on shotguns, a Smith revolver, and a couple 22 pistols. I tore hogs and crows a new ass with a red dot on a Mossberg pump.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Integrated into the forend or add on WML?
Ergonomics?
Activation method and location?
How would you turn it on and where would you place the activation?
Constant on or momentary only?
Lumens?
Will it work with SBS models?



Regardless of where it attaches to the forearm, I want to be able to activate it with both the thumb and the finger tips of the hand working the forearm;
I want both momentary and constant-on capability;
A clicky tailcap with a wired rocker switch at the end of a 6-8" cable would make me very happy. Hit the clicky with my thumb and the rocker with my finger tips. Limiting the cord length would hold it close to the forearm without much slack.

As it stands now, if I had the requisite 870/590, the need to outfit it ricky-tick, and the cash to do so burning a hole in my pocket:

I'd use a Hogue overmolded forend: https://www.hogueinc.com/stocks/mossberg500/12gauge/forends/mossberg-500-12-gauge-overmolded-forend

...to which I would I would attach a small rail section at the forward 6:00, hogging out the rubber and whatnot in order to try to get it as close to the Ruger PC Carbine forend as I can: https://ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/specSheets/19100.html

...and mount an SL TLR RM1, with the remote swich positioned where I like: https://www.streamlight.com/docs/default-source/data-sheet/tlr-rm1_datasheet.pdf?sfvrsn=37efbef0_17


I do like LJB's idea of dual lights at 4:00-5:00 and 7;00-8:00....that could cut down on the light offset below the mag tube.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Has anyone tried the Nightstick forearm?

https://www.amazon.com/Nightstick-SFL-13WL-Shotgun-Forend-Light/dp/B0B61T88CQ

My issue with that design, as well as the Streamlight and EOTech versions, is that the hand operating the forend is no longer in the same plane as the firing hand on a conventional stock or Shockwave/TAC-14 grip. I suspect that my be less of an issue with a pistol grip stock such as a Mesa Tactial Urbino, but I haven't experimented hands-on.

[Chuck Whitlock]

In another part of this forum, RevolverRob dropped a link to this vendor:

https://wooxstore.com/products/gladiatore-fore-end

This changes some of my thinking.

[Lon]

In another part of this forum, RevolverRob dropped a link to this vendor:

https://wooxstore.com/products/gladiatore-fore-end

This changes some of my thinking.

That’s a good looking forearm.

[willie]

That’s a good looking forearm.

Note that the fore end chart listed 6.5 inch action bars. Model 88 and Model 500 shotguns with synthetic stocks since 2006 do not have action bars. Instead two bars are pinned to the fore end--one on each side. Also until recently the 590 series guns had 7 5/8 inch action bars. 20 years ago all had this length action bars.

The new chart does not accommodate guns 7 5/8inch action bars. Thus many folks might discover that these fore ends are not compatible with their Mossberg shotguns.

My quote did not pick up Rob's link to the nice fore ends.