A300 Ultima Patrol

[perlslacker]

If that bothers you, you really should look into who made the components of just about everything in your house.

I guarantee you will find it comes from somewhere that has, or is, committed acts that you find distasteful.

It's worth noting that, if you take a look at US domestic and foreign policy historically, we don't exactly have the moral high ground here.

(if anyone wants to fight me about this, please do it in another thread or in PMs. I don't want to derail this thread)

[Cory]

:confused: The gun came out five days ago and is pre-order status.

I understand that Beretta generally builds quality shotguns and the A300 action has existed for awhile. But chopping barrel length off a gas gun can induce a higher rate of failures. It might be premature to make this statement in a technical sense.

Edit: Perhaps Ben_G can give us more insight on if the guns that went through training courses were pre-production or production guns. And what the mean rounds between failures were with birdshot, buckshot, and slugs. Also, if Beretta can inform us about the expected functional differences of Steelium vs. Non-Steelium barrels.

I wasn't clear enough. That comment was related to manufacture location having any impact. The newness is a fair point, but the gun isn't exactly revolutionary, all new and I give more credit to that I guess.

Questions about changes in barrel length impacting the guns reliability are fair to ask I think, but aren't something I'm overly concerned about. I try to verify reliability in any new gun I get. I imagine this should be no different.

Steelium vs Non-steelium has been talked about in hunting circles for a long time. Its the a300 vs a400 difference essentially. The backbore on the steelium is normally regarded as a positive giving more consistent patterns. Basically the steeliums forcing cone is something like 14 inches. It just has a smoother transition for the pattern from chamber to barrel, as I understand it. Meaning better patterns. This stuff has been talked about by Beretta for years. The A400 Xtreme Plus model had this talked about at SHOT or NRA show awhile back. The info is out there, it's just not discussed in the defensive relm as much. I can try to find a few videos if you'd like.

As far as mean numbers between malfunctions, I guess you could press for that. We've had a few who saw and shot the guns in classes say they were impressed. Thats not an exact quantifiable number of rounds, but if dudes who run shotguns through classes for a living like it then I respect them enough to think the gun is worth while.

If we just want to shit on Beretta, question every aspect of their new model, piss off their rep, and be cranky because of where a factory is that's not really my thing. (Not saying thats you, Rob. You always get the benefit of the doubt with me dude.) I'm happy to see a manufacturer I like come out with more shotgun stuff.

[rob_s]

The newness is a fair point, but the gun isn't exactly revolutionary, all new and I give more credit to that I guess.

Questions about changes in barrel length impacting the guns reliability are fair to ask I think, but aren't something I'm overly concerned about.

For me, this is one of those instances where the base model being such a stalwart builds confidence for me in the new version.

The same way I have more confidence, sight unseen, in a new Colt based on the 6920 (even if they extend the gas tube) than I do in *any* of the various boutique ARs (KAC is about the only one that's now been around long enough, and I've had enough personal experience with. for me to start to trust).

That, to me, is the genius of this new model. "hey guys, we have this super amazing action that's been around for decades that's withstood about the worst beatings you can find (rental guns) for thousands of rounds. What about if we just put some basic tactical upgrades on it, cut down the barrel, and sell that same action as a defensive gun? Especially if we can do it, with upgrades the premium model doesn't even have, for <2/3 the (newly inflated) price of the hotness?"


Yeah, no shit huh. What took so long?
:cool::p:cool:

[Cory]

For me, this is one of those instances where the base model being such a stalwart builds confidence for me in the new version.

The same way I have more confidence, sight unseen, in a new Colt based on the 6920 (even if they extend the gas tube) than I do in *any* of the various boutique ARs (KAC is about the only one that's now been around long enough, and I've had enough personal experience with. for me to start to trust).

That, to me, is the genius of this new model. "hey guys, we have this super amazing action that's been around for decades that's withstood about the worst beatings you can find (rental guns) for thousands of rounds. What about if we just put some basic tactical upgrades on it, cut down the barrel, and sell that same action as a defensive gun? Especially if we can do it, with upgrades the premium model doesn't even have, for <2/3 the (newly inflated) price of the hotness?"


Yeah, no shit huh. What took so long?
:cool::p:cool:

Ditto. I'm not a duck hunter (yet) but those guys are hard as hell on guns. And the a300 series is considered a good duck gun. It's not the a400, but it's earned a respected place in that niche because it's just reliable.

I would have more out of the gate confidence because of that too. Of course still verify... but no reason to doubt it either.

[Centerfire]

I wasn't clear enough. That comment was related to manufacture location having any impact. The newness is a fair point, but the gun isn't exactly revolutionary, all new and I give more credit to that I guess.

Questions about changes in barrel length impacting the guns reliability are fair to ask I think, but aren't something I'm overly concerned about. I try to verify reliability in any new gun I get. I imagine this should be no different.

Steelium vs Non-steelium has been talked about in hunting circles for a long time. Its the a300 vs a400 difference essentially. The backbore on the steelium is normally regarded as a positive giving more consistent patterns. Basically the steeliums forcing cone is something like 14 inches. It just has a smoother transition for the pattern from chamber to barrel, as I understand it. Meaning better patterns. This stuff has been talked about by Beretta for years. The A400 Xtreme Plus model had this talked about at SHOT or NRA show awhile back. The info is out there, it's just not discussed in the defensive relm as much. I can try to find a few videos if you'd like.

As far as mean numbers between malfunctions, I guess you could press for that. We've had a few who saw and shot the guns in classes say they were impressed. Thats not an exact quantifiable number of rounds, but if dudes who run shotguns through classes for a living like it then I respect them enough to think the gun is worth while.

If we just want to shit on Beretta, question every aspect of their new model, piss off their rep, and be cranky because of where a factory is that's not really my thing. (Not saying thats you, Rob. You always get the benefit of the doubt with me dude.) I'm happy to see a manufacturer I like come out with more shotgun stuff.


I think it is going to be a winner. As you pointed out, this isn't an entirely new platform and many of the new features stem from Berettas experience with the 1301T. It is odd, however, when you ask where it's made and the answer isn't entirely true. Does it matter? Probably not but it does make me naturally suspicious. Either way, the new A300UP handguard looks like a nice improvement and I'd like to see it on the 1301T.

[RevolverRob]

I think it is going to be a winner. As you pointed out, this isn't an entirely new platform and many of the new features stem from Berettas experience with the 1301T. It is odd, however, when you ask where it's made and the answer isn't entirely true. Does it matter? Probably not but it does make me naturally suspicious. Either way, the new A300UP handguard looks like a nice improvement and I'd like to see it on the 1301T.

I want to be fair to both you and Beretta here. It was not the individuals who represent Beretta who told you the gun was solely Italian and American made. It was members here are not, to my knowledge, affiliated with Beretta who said that. Our Beretta rep was straight and honest about that question. I for one appreciate that immensely.

Some folks tend to run off half-cocked around here when they shouldn't, including me.

---

FWIW - I want this gun to be fucking great and reliable and awesome. Because I want the superiority of it to overwhelm my other concerns. Once upon a time I felt I would never buy a SIG again. Then the Rattler came out that did precisely that. I am open to always being convinced, in a technical sense, of the superiority of a new model.

[Centerfire]

I want to be fair to both you and Beretta here. It was not the individuals who represent Beretta who told you the gun was solely Italian and American made. It was members here are not, to my knowledge, affiliated with Beretta who said that. Our Beretta rep was straight and honest about that question. I for one appreciate that immensely.

Some folks tend to run off half-cocked around here when they shouldn't, including me.

---

FWIW - I want this gun to be fucking great and reliable and awesome. Because I want the superiority of it to overwhelm my other concerns. Once upon a time I felt I would never buy a SIG again. Then the Rattler came out that did precisely that. I am open to always being convinced, in a technical sense, of the superiority of a new model.

Yes it was. Post #28. I get it, the entire gun wasn't imported from Turkey so they can say "Made in USA". Clearly sourcing from Turkey is an issue, for Beretta and for US buyers, or I wouldn't be asking and they wouldn't be obfuscating.

Lets move on, it is what it is.

[Savage Hands]

Anyways, I will be buying one eventually after seeing some production units in PF members hands.

[Elwin]

I’m not a fan of some portion of the money going to Turkey either, but if I ever find the money for an auto defensive gun this will probably be it.

I have beaten the ever living shit, both in terms of round count and otherwise, out of a Beretta 391 field model 20ga that my dad got for me at around 14 as my first dedicated bird and clays gun of my own. I’m all for having a defensive configuration 12 that’s basically the same gun, because I pretty much implicitly trust that design based on both personal experience and reputation.

[RevolverRob]

I tried searching the thread and couldn't find it.

I wonder if the A300 UP will be compatible with the A300 Ultima KickOff?

[Cory]

I tried searching the thread and couldn't find it.

I wonder if the A300 UP will be compatible with the A300 Ultima KickOff?

I still havent tried a kick off. That might be a pretty sweet set up though.

[gato naranja]

After 50+ years of gun manufacturers and marketers mostly telling me that I need what I don't and don't need what I do,* this thread and this shotgun seem like a nice change. If these things actually show up in quantity at MSRP by this Summer, I will probably rummage around under the couch cushions for some spare change to buy one.

If this transpires, it will not be because of - or in spite of - component sourcing, but because it sounds like it really may be the most logical shotgun for moi.



*Yes, I know that is poor English, but "must needs" and all that.

[rob_s]

Yes it was. Post #28. I get it, the entire gun wasn't imported from Turkey so they can say "Made in USA". Clearly sourcing from Turkey is an issue, for Beretta and for US buyers, or I wouldn't be asking and they wouldn't be obfuscating.

If by "they" you mean Beretta, then "they" aren't.

[RevolverRob]

I still havent tried a kick off. That might be a pretty sweet set up though.

Yea, it would add ~1" of LOP to the gun. But given it looks like the UP stock comes in at 13" with the pad on you could go to a flat pad/plate and probably by 13.25-13.5" OAL.

Folks seem to like Kickoff on the 1301 Comp Pro, but the problem there is the OAL stock length. With Kick-Off it approaches 15", because the 1301 stock is long by default. The A300UP has an advantage here with a shorter factory stock.

If you can get a kickoff functioning here. That could make this one of, if not the, softest shooting tactical 12-gauge out there.

[Cory]

Yea, it would add ~1" of LOP to the gun. But given it looks like the UP stock comes in at 13" with the pad on you could go to a flat pad/plate and probably by 13.25-13.5" OAL.

Folks seem to like Kickoff on the 1301 Comp Pro, but the problem there is the OAL stock length. With Kick-Off it approaches 15", because the 1301 stock is long by default. The A300UP has an advantage here with a shorter factory stock.

If you can get a kickoff functioning here. That could make this one of, if not the, softest shooting tactical 12-gauge out there.

I'm in love with my magpul stocked 1301, so I could for sure see LOP being a hang up for some people. But if it works like your saying.... sweet. Who am I kidding... my next shotgun is an A400 xtreme plus anyway.

Having not fired a kick off, nor been properly instructed on push-pull in person (on my to-do list) I don't know how big an advantage or improvment it would be.

Does proper push-pull negate the kick-off systems advantage? Or does it further soften recoil? Shooting 3" slugs and 3" or 3.5" turkey loads is probably never an all together pleasent affair. But the UP doesnt seem like it's got that in mind.

[Centerfire]

If by "they" you mean Beretta, then "they" aren't.


Anyone that is interested can reread the first few pages of this thread and take from it what they want. It's ok if you like what I don't, and vice versa.

Again, we can move on now.

[Centerfire]

Yea, it would add ~1" of LOP to the gun. But given it looks like the UP stock comes in at 13" with the pad on you could go to a flat pad/plate and probably by 13.25-13.5" OAL.

Folks seem to like Kickoff on the 1301 Comp Pro, but the problem there is the OAL stock length. With Kick-Off it approaches 15", because the 1301 stock is long by default. The A300UP has an advantage here with a shorter factory stock.

If you can get a kickoff functioning here. That could make this one of, if not the, softest shooting tactical 12-gauge out there.

I'm surprised their isn't more demand for different LOP stocks (shorter), even if they aren't adjustable for length.

[Ben_G]

I apologize if the earlier comments about Turkey came off as hiding something, that was not my intent. I'd taken the early questions as to be 'is this gun designed/engineered/primarily made there', plus the questions about inertia actions were just things that Beretta does not do. Couple with the fact that I had normalcy blinders on as I've worked on the A300 for 6+ years and just know the barrels have always been designed by us, and sourced from Stoger. I can't comment about politics here, but if anyone finds me at SHOT, I might have some offline comments. Nothing bad on Stoeger though, they really are a class operation.

As to tuning the gas system for the new length, our engineering team spent a SIGNIFICANT amount of time testing and fine tuning the design here in the US. The gas piston and body will look very familiar to anyone who knows a 1301 or A400XP, but the spring rate and gas hole size has been regulated for the new barrel using data from the old 3901 and the 1301 to get us in the initial ballpark, and then shooting the piss out of them to dial in the final setup.

I can't share full MRBS data because A) I don't have it here at SHOT, and B) no mfg shares the full spread, but I can tell you the final configuration flew through bird, slug, and general buck great, and was flawless with the main load we tuned it for : Federal Flite Control LE132. The locking block action is not as globally forgiving as the rotating bolt in the 1301; so we made it great with everything (since that's what made the 1301 so great), but perfect (test to 1300 with 0 stoppages or malfunctions) on what we figured is the round that would be in the gun during duty/defense use aka LE132. Other rounds tested ran the gamut from 900fps birdshot up to some wacky slugs (there was 1200fps or so 2oz and 1600fps+ 1oz if I remember correctly).

As for the gun I ran in the course, it had a 3D printed handguard since the texturing on the mold was still being completed, and the barrel and receiver were from pre-production batches. I recall there being some minor tuning changes to the production models. I think we identified a needed change to the receiver to fix a hiccup we saw that crops up in higher round count than we did in the courses, and there was probably final tuning on the barrel as well.

The gen 1 kickoff (the one in the Ultima) will fit in this stock, but it does add about 1 or 1.5 inches to the LOP.

The A300/A400 comparison in the bird world is dead on for the barrel performance. Also just like in that world, we're trying to have better-best product options for the market.

This was a gun thats been pushed internally for ages given how much of a layup it is, but it's only been the relatively recent commercial success of the 1301 which convinced upper management to let us loose on it/ fund it's development.

[Ben_G]

Oh, and push/pull negates the need for kickoff.

[GJM]

Ben, any chance some of the features of the new Patrol shotgun might find their way to the 1301, making it a more out of the box solution?

Also, did you shoot Brenneke slugs -- asking for "a friend" in Alaska?

[Ben_G]

I know this is mostly marketed as a fighting shotgun, for perfectly sensible reasons. At 38" and 7.1 pounds, I'm actually considering it as a Walking Around Gun here on the property and environs. There are times of year when I could lawfully take rabbit, deer, black bear, cougar, grouse, mourning dove and band-tailed pigeon on the same day. Due to the thick cover, ranges are quite short, so a person with a pocket full of #6s (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=6s) and some slugs in the tube could have a nice day. Ghost rings or a red dot maybe aren't the best thing for flushed birds but I could make it work. It makes more sense to have a set up that is optimized for big game that can also take birds and small game than the other way around.

And of course it would be a dandy defensive tool.

And this is part of why we called it the Patrol. This and maybe one day a department-level LE issued item (the 1301 pricing tends to land it as approved for individual purchase, but a tall bill for department level purchase).

[Ben_G]

Ben, any chance some of the features of the new Patrol shotgun might find their way to the 1301, making it a more out of the box solution?

Also, did you shoot Brenneke slugs -- asking for "a friend" in Alaska?

We're a 500 yearly old company, there's a chance we'll have a factory on Mars one day 😂. Sorry, yes. None of the new quality of life features we did (loading beveling, new handguard) are functionally incompatible with the 1301 on a technical level, and as I've said, we're not ignoring the 1301. We just don't have unlimited resources and all these dev cycles take time and money.

I'll check about the slugs when I get back, but we shot everything we had in the bunker and could lay our hands on the last year and a half.

[RevolverRob]

Thanks Ben_G for taking the time to clarify and educate us. I appreciate it and know this is a busy time with SHOT in progress.

[Tannhauser]

I have a question on the A400 vs. A300 barrel. From this thread, the A400 (1301) barrel has the longer forcing cone. Is forcing cone length much of a driver for patterns using Flite Control wads?

I've seen the difference between factory and then gunsmith modified forcing cones on birdshot patterns. I've no direct experience with this using Flite Control, but my layman's understanding seems to point towards the Flite Control wad being more important to the performance than the forcing cone.

[Ben_G]

I have a question on the A400 vs. A300 barrel. From this thread, the A400 (1301) barrel has the longer forcing cone. Is forcing cone length much of a driver for patterns using Flite Control wads?

I've seen the difference between factory and then gunsmith modified forcing cones on birdshot patterns. I've no direct experience with this using Flite Control, but my layman's understanding seems to point towards the Flite Control wad being more important to the performance than the forcing cone.

From what I've seen shooting them side by side, it stacks. Flite Control is absolutely fantastic as is. Throw that through a premium barrel with a long forcing cone (steelium, Vang Comp, etc), it gets even better to the point of cheating.

[rob_s]

Ditto. I'm not a duck hunter (yet) but those guys are hard as hell on guns. And the a300 series is considered a good duck gun. It's not the a400, but it's earned a respected place in that niche because it's just reliable.

Total hijack, but if you haven't tried sporting clays, it's the most fun shooting thing I do these days.

[Cory]

Total hijack, but if you haven't tried sporting clays, it's the most fun shooting thing I do these days.

I shoot clays in a game called crazy quail. It's like skeet but less formal and more fun. Sporting clays in Tampa is on my to do list.

[Joe Mac]

I can't share full MRBS data because A) I don't have it here at SHOT, and B) no mfg shares the full spread, but I can tell you the final configuration flew through bird, slug, and general buck great, and was flawless with the main load we tuned it for : Federal Flite Control LE132.

Coincidentally, I know a guy with a metric crapton of LE132 in cans in his garage...

[BobM]

I know this is mostly marketed as a fighting shotgun, for perfectly sensible reasons. At 38" and 7.1 pounds, I'm actually considering it as a Walking Around Gun here on the property and environs. There are times of year when I could lawfully take rabbit, deer, black bear, cougar, grouse, mourning dove and band-tailed pigeon on the same day. Due to the thick cover, ranges are quite short, so a person with a pocket full of #6s (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=6s) and some slugs in the tube could have a nice day. Ghost rings or a red dot maybe aren't the best thing for flushed birds but I could make it work. It makes more sense to have a set up that is optimized for big game that can also take birds and small game than the other way around.

And of course it would be a dandy defensive tool.

That’s what I envisioned when I bought my Remington 1187 Special Purpose with the iron sighted 21” REM choke barrel. The only real drawbacks are that it needs full power ammo to run and it’ll probably require more maintenance over its lifespan than one of the Berettas. I’m probably going to get one after they’ve been out a while.

[Tannhauser]

From what I've seen shooting them side by side, it stacks. Flite Control is absolutely fantastic as is. Throw that through a premium barrel with a long forcing cone (steelium, Vang Comp, etc), it gets even better to the point of cheating.

Thanks for the clarification. Based on how I've seen Flite Control pattern through really cheap barrels, I'm sure the A300 performance will be just fine.

[JHC]

Thanks for the clarification. Based on how I've seen Flite Control pattern through really cheap barrels, I'm sure the A300 performance will be just fine.

+1 my rando 18.5" cylinder bore 870 barrel delivers 8 pellet FC patterns equal to the best I've seen reported on these pages out to 25 yards.

[Tannhauser]

From what I've seen shooting them side by side, it stacks. Flite Control is absolutely fantastic as is. Throw that through a premium barrel with a long forcing cone (steelium, Vang Comp, etc), it gets even better to the point of cheating.

This is for the response. I greatly appreciate Beretta technical presence in this thread giving direct answers to technical questions.

[Tannhauser]

+1 my rando 18.5" cylinder bore 870 barrel delivers 8 pellet FC patterns equal to the best I've seen reported on these pages out to 25 yards.

Flite Control is magical stuff. The first time I fired Flite Control out of my old 870P and a Mossberg 500 it was unicorns and wizards level of magic at the tight patterns.

[Jeff S.]

Question for those who have shot/handled both the A300 and the 1301:

Do you notice the inch difference in barrel length? I like that the 1301 seems compact compared to other shotguns, and I’m curious if the A300 feels just as handy.

[SamueL]

Question for those who have shot/handled both the A300 and the 1301:

Do you notice the inch difference in barrel length? I like that the 1301 seems compact compared to other shotguns, and I’m curious if the A300 feels just as handy.

I personally did not notice any length difference between them while shooting. That was fairly static shooting with some target transitions though, and I was not moving around cover/concealment or deploying from a cruiser.

[Centerfire]

Mossberg introduced at SHOT an adjustable LOP 940 model. It would be nice if this was more standard for manufacturers like Beretta. I switched the stock on my 1301T partly because I wanted a adaptable stock. When my wife shoots it I take out all of the spacers.

[L-2]

I'll need to personally shoulder the new A300UP before making a decision.
I don't see me sawing the butt-end shorter and fitting a recoil pad, if the stock is too long for me (I haven't done it before and don't own a band-saw, only a jig saw and a Sawzall; no belt sander either for a custom-fit recoil pad).
I'd really prefer something like the Magpul stock, but realize Magpul's SGA stock won't work with shotguns with those long recoil spring tubes extending out the back of the receivers.

I dislike needing to spend an additional, up to, $200 for a different stock, but will do so if truly necessary.:(
I've absolutely zero idea if there are any aftermarket, shorter stocks for the new A300UP right now, if needed by me.

[mmc45414]

Mossberg introduced at SHOT an adjustable LOP 940 model. It would be nice if this was more standard for manufacturers like Beretta. I switched the stock on my 1301T partly because I wanted a adaptable stock. When my wife shoots it I take out all of the spacers.

I think it is standard for Beretta, just they might not include all of the spacers with the Tactical or Patrol. My Extreama came with spacers, and I think my Competition did also. None of these say 1301 (https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta/stock-adjustment-accessories.html#/filter:firearm_type:Shotgun/filter:material:Polymer), but I am pretty sure some of them cross pollinate.

My Tactical came with a really squishy pad that snagged on my shoulder, I bought the pad that was the same as came on my 1301C (https://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/E73006), but never got it installed before I sold the gun to my buddy (kept the 1301C).

[RevolverRob]

I'll need to personally shoulder the new A300UP before making a decision.
I don't see me sawing the butt-end shorter and fitting a recoil pad, if the stock is too long for me (I haven't done it before and don't own a band-saw, only a jig saw and a Sawzall; no belt sander either for a custom-fit recoil pad).
I'd really prefer something like the Magpul stock, but realize Magpul's SGA stock won't work with shotguns with those long recoil spring tubes extending out the back of the receivers.

I dislike needing to spend an additional, up to, $200 for a different stock, but will do so if truly necessary.:(
I've absolutely zero idea if there are any aftermarket, shorter stocks for the new A300UP right now, if needed by me.

It's a 13" LOP with the recoil pad in place and it looks like a 1" recoil pad. Replacing that pad with a flat pad would drop you to 12.5-12.25" which is about as short as anyone over 5' tall would ever want, even with body armor on.

[rob_s]

I'll need to personally shoulder the new A300UP before making a decision.
I don't see me sawing the butt-end shorter and fitting a recoil pad, if the stock is too long for me (I haven't done it before and don't own a band-saw, only a jig saw and a Sawzall; no belt sander either for a custom-fit recoil pad).
I'd really prefer something like the Magpul stock, but realize Magpul's SGA stock won't work with shotguns with those long recoil spring tubes extending out the back of the receivers.

I dislike needing to spend an additional, up to, $200 for a different stock, but will do so if truly necessary.:(
I've absolutely zero idea if there are any aftermarket, shorter stocks for the new A300UP right now, if needed by me.


I think it is standard for Beretta, just they might not include all of the spacers with the Tactical or Patrol. My Extreama came with spacers, and I think my Competition did also. None of these say 1301 (https://www.midwestgunworks.com/beretta/stock-adjustment-accessories.html#/filter:firearm_type:Shotgun/filter:material:Polymer), but I am pretty sure some of them cross pollinate.

My Tactical came with a really squishy pad that snagged on my shoulder, I bought the pad that was the same as came on my 1301C (https://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/E73006), but never got it installed before I sold the gun to my buddy (kept the 1301C).


It's a 13" LOP with the recoil pad in place and it looks like a 1" recoil pad. Replacing that pad with a flat pad would drop you to 12.5-12.25" which is about as short as anyone over 5' tall would ever want, even with body armor on.

I believe the 0.39" vesion of this is what I have on the wife's A300 for clays
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009PTUT4O

I had to use different screws as the ones that came with the stock pad were too short.

but it does not look to me like there's much pad on here.

100369

[mmc45414]

I think it is standard for Beretta, just they might not include all of the spacers with the Tactical or Patrol. My Extreama came with spacers, and I think my Competition did also.

I had to use different screws as the ones that came with the stock pad were too short.

I did go down to the basement and confirmed my 1301C came with a kit with two of the spacers and longer screws, but could not find any part numbers on them. I am pretty sure these are all the same for all their synthetic stocks.

100373

[Pnut]

So when will the parts for this gun start hitting the shelves? I REALLY want that hand guard for my 1301!

[Bernomad]

So when will the parts for this gun start hitting the shelves? I REALLY want that hand guard for my 1301!

Yes. Sign me up for one as well!

[Ben_G]

You shouldn't notice the difference in barrel lengths. The overall size of the guns are pretty much exactly the same, the chamber sits in the 1301 different than the A300's, and that effects how the barrel length gets measured by ATF. We wanted to match the 1301, hence the 19.1".

Beretta has 2 butpad profiles: field and sporting. The sporting is a bit taller than the field, and all tac guns use the field profile. All those spacers will fit; it's a shared part on A300/A350/1301T/Patrol.

[mmc45414]

Also glad to see the drop and cast adjustment remains:

100397

[SamueL]

This is Page 40 of the new Beretta A300 manual. Pretty cool and subtle evidence Beretta wants to take the tactical shotgun market.

100399

[167]

This is Page 40 of the new Beretta A300 manual. Pretty cool and subtle evidence Beretta wants to take the tactical shotgun market.

100399

That is cool to see.

[pm07]

Im super digging this new shotgun. I love my 1301 but I wish it had a smoother, contoured loading port like these A300s will.

[Jay585]

Would anyone care to comment on how to choose between a 1301 or the new A300?

[shootist26]

Would anyone care to comment on how to choose between a 1301 or the new A300?

1301 uses the Blink gas system. Personal experience has shown it eats pretty much anything including powder puff bulk pack target loads, and yes it does cycle very quickly.
https://www.beretta.com/en/technology/products/b-link

A300 does not use Blink. I don't own one so I don't know how well it does handling light loads. Otherwise, it incorporates very good features that weren't on the 1301, such as a QD cup in the stock, enlarged loading port, and MLOK factory handguards. Also looks to be a few hundred dollars cheaper.

Honestly I think it might be a wash. The A300 is more ready out of the box and cheaper too. I already have a 1301 and am happy with it. The extreme reliability with soft loads is the primary reason I bought it. What I really need is the A300 MLOK factory handguard to be compatible and available for sale

[Le Français]

How does the Patrol’s enlarged loading port compare to the 1301 Comp’s loading port?

[e_stern]

How does the Patrol’s enlarged loading port compare to the 1301 Comp’s loading port?

Smaller, because it's a 3" receiver. Not a fair comparison.

[Le Français]

Smaller, because it's a 3" receiver. Not a fair comparison.

Thanks for your reply, but I don't understand. Are you saying the 1301 Comp takes shells larger than 3"? Because I don't think it does: https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-1301-comp/

[RevolverRob]

Thanks for your reply, but I don't understand. Are you saying the 1301 Comp takes shells larger than 3"? Because I don't think it does: https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-1301-comp/

The Comp and Comp Pro only accept 3" shells, but they are actually built on 3.5" shell sized receivers.

The 1301T and A300UP are built on 3" receivers.

[e_stern]

Thanks for your reply, but I don't understand. Are you saying the 1301 Comp takes shells larger than 3"? Because I don't think it does: https://www.beretta.com/en-us/beretta-1301-comp/

As Rob said, the 1301 Comp/Comp Pro are based on the A400 Xtreme 3.5" receiver. The loading port is physically longer, even though the barrel chamber is 3" max.

The Ultima Patrol and Tac receivers are physically shorter.

[Le Français]

Thanks to both of you

[Ben_G]

The loading port on the Patrol has a new generation of clearance cuts that go higher and further forward on the receiver than those on the 1301. We went and took them as far as we could without compromising the integrity of the receiver at the front.

[RevolverRob]

The loading port on the Patrol has a new generation of clearance cuts that go higher and further forward on the receiver than those on the 1301. We went and took them as far as we could without compromising the integrity of the receiver at the front.

It looks great. Is that something that may make it to the 1301 in the future?

[Ben_G]

It looks great. Is that something that may make it to the 1301 in the future?

It's certainly something the Italian team was taking a look at during the show. Their lead engineer for shotguns and their PM for long guns were in attendance at the show this year, so they were able to handle the Patrol and listen in on some of the genuine user responses in the booth. Certain people in this thread might have also bent the ear of the CEO of Beretta Italy during our range day haha.

Same goes for their pistol team and the 80X.

[Rick R]

Ben_G
Do you know if anyone will have an A300UP at the Great American Outdoor Show in Harrisburg PA next month?

[perlslacker]

From a TTAG article about the A300 UP (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shot-show-the-new-beretta-a300-ultima-patrol-12-gauge-shotgun/)

https://i.imgur.com/7ML6InK.png

If anyone reading this works at TTAG, come get your boy.

[Miles_Urbanus]

Well if these were shipping during SHOT show I’d expect someone to have one in hand by now. I guess that was just a wee bit marketing hype. Mine is slated to ship in late Feb.

[RevolverRob]

From a TTAG article about the A300 UP (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shot-show-the-new-beretta-a300-ultima-patrol-12-gauge-shotgun/)

https://i.imgur.com/7ML6InK.png

If anyone reading this works at TTAG, come get your boy.

Took me a minute. Because I was going, "Isn't the Yooper supposed to have screw in chokes?"

Then I went and started looking it up and thought, "Wait did that say modified cylinder? That's not a thing..."

PS: That's right it's the A300 Ultima Patrol, the A300 U.P. - It's the Beretta Yooper.

[perlslacker]

Took me a minute. Because I was going, "Isn't the Yooper supposed to have screw in chokes?"

Then I went and started looking it up and thought, "Wait did that say modified cylinder? That's not a thing..."

yeah they misread "MC" to mean "modified cylinder" instead of "Mobilchoke."

[awp_101]

PS: That's right it's the A300 Ultima Patrol, the A300 U.P. - It's the Beretta Yooper.
100586

[bdy83]

Just placed my preorder with for a grey one.
https://www.bereli.com?aff=4338

Do you have to be LE to order from them? Their SKU ends in LE J32CT11LE

[Marex]

What's a good sling arrangement/mount for the stock-end on something like this?

I've seen the adaptors for the 1301 and others that fit betweent the stock and receiver but I'm unfamilair with the variations in application between models.

[Pnut]

So far, the rear sting mounting point seems to be the only flaw on this gun. I believe it has a QD cup on the bottom surface of the stock. It be perfect if there were sling attachment point on the sides!

I figure you could install QD cups from GroveTec or other manufacturers on the sides.

Personally, I’m not a big fan of the plates that fit between stock and receiver, but others might disagree. I had one on an older shotgun. A friend tried using it and used the plate as a thumb rest. After one round of full powered OO buck, he swore he almost broke his thumb

[RevolverRob]

While a side mounted QD would be ideal, assuming a rotation limited QD cup, just insert the rear QD with the long axis parallel to the long axis of the gun and your front QD with long-axis parallel and use a quick adjust 2-point sling. In my experience it is the front swivel that is most critical to keeping the gun from rotating with the gun is carried across the front of the body and the sling is adjusted tight.

[Marex]

Thanks for the input. I somehow missed the bottom qd. I'll have to give it try and see how it works out and go from there.

[HCM]

Ben_G

How much commonality is there between the A300 tactical and the new A300 Ultima Turkey gun ?

I ask because there is a contingent who likes semi auto camo hunting shotguns as a “stealth” fighting gun for places that frown on anything black or tactical.

It appears that in skilled hands and full of the right ammo one could do some serious work with this thing.

https://www.beretta.com/en-us/a300-ultima-turkey-realtree-edge/?utm_campaign=FA%20-%20Shotgun%20Field&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=244171954&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_KFmaPbI0hCjMf69xxcPjqQq5jnUccrmiXpSMNxDcGm6D88GDp DBY7szF7NPPUCIttVRPbrIqMag7HCmRgKoXLIeoJdA&utm_content=244171954&utm_source=hs_email

100780

[Ben_G]

Ben_G

How much commonality is there between the A300 tactical and the new A300 Ultima Turkey gun ?

I ask because there is a contingent who likes semi auto camo hunting shotguns as a “stealth” fighting gun for places that frown on anything black or tactical.

It appears that in skilled hands and full of the right ammo one could do some serious work with this thing.

100780

A good amount mechanically, but there are some major differences that might not make that the best idea IMHO. The Turkey gun uses the old field mag tube and valve stem style gas system (no pass through tube available for higher capacity). Also, the gas system on that gun is tuned for durability on turkey hunting loads rather than super high reliability on low recoil defensive ammo (the Patrol design specs). It does use the same receiver as the tac (drilled and tapped, as well as the new loading cuts) and the A300 line shares it's bolt and recoil rod, but that stock is our field stock with the old style Kickoff and traditional LOP, and its the field forend with less aggressive texture and no mlok. And there's the 5" of barrel length difference.

Long way of saying there's the logical amount of technical overlap, but the finer tuning points that we spent years dialing in really make the guns set up for their respective fields and do matter, and we really do try to think these configurations through.

If you're comfortable running magnums for reliability or sending the barrel to get drilled out (which I cannot recommend), pulling the mag tube restriction plug, and using field furniture rather than tac stuff, I'm sure it'll fit the bill; but end of the day that's very much just going to be a hunting gun repurposed as a tac gun (with a fancy loading port).

I will also say we're just getting started on the Patrol. This thing has just started its lifecycle, and we have a bunch of ideas for fun variants on both ends for the tacticool spectrum.

[HCM]

A good amount mechanically, but there are some major differences that might not make that the best idea IMHO. The Turkey gun uses the old field mag tube and valve stem style gas system (no pass through tube available for higher capacity). Also, the gas system on that gun is tuned for durability on turkey hunting loads rather than super high reliability on low recoil defensive ammo (the Patrol design specs). It does use the same receiver as the tac (drilled and tapped, as well as the new loading cuts) and the A300 line shares it's bolt and recoil rod, but that stock is our field stock with the old style Kickoff and traditional LOP, and its the field forend with less aggressive texture and no mlok. And there's the 5" of barrel length difference.

Long way of saying there's the logical amount of technical overlap, but the finer tuning points that we spent years dialing in really make the guns set up for their respective fields and do matter, and we really do try to think these configurations through.

If you're comfortable running magnums for reliability or sending the barrel to get drilled out (which I cannot recommend), pulling the mag tube restriction plug, and using field furniture rather than tac stuff, I'm sure it'll fit the bill; but end of the day that's very much just going to be a hunting gun repurposed as a tac gun (with a fancy loading port).

I will also say we're just getting started on the Patrol. This thing has just started its lifecycle, and we have a bunch of ideas for fun variants on both ends for the tacticool spectrum.

A mag extension or shorter barrel would defeat the “stealth” concept but the caveat on ammunition selection for reliability is duly noted.

[awp_101]

HCM, what about having a UP camoed with one of the hydra dip or other dunk system? Keeps it looking friendly and unobtrusive unless someone has reason to dig further?

[HCM]

HCM, what about having a UP camoed with one of the hydra dip or other dunk system? Keeps it looking friendly and unobtrusive unless someone has reason to dig further?

If you pick a duck hunter type camo but the “sporting form” - short mag / longer barrel / vent rib is part of the “stealth.”

The hydro dip would probably work better on a 1301 comp than a tactical for stealth purposes.

[Caballoflaco]

I will also say we're just getting started on the Patrol. This thing has just started its lifecycle, and we have a bunch of ideas for fun variants on both ends for the tacticool spectrum.


If you pick a duck hunter type camo but the “sporting form” - short mag / longer barrel / vent rib is part of the “stealth.”

The hydro dip would probably work better on a 1301 comp than a tactical for stealth purposes.

I’m hoping that Ben_G is referring to a comp version of the A300 coming one day. The bolded is one of, but not the main reason I went with a 1301 comp over a 1301 tactical.

They could even release a limited run with a 21” or 24” vent-rib barrel with the A300 wood furniture and call it a retro model.

[Centerfire]

SBS barrels would be welcome.

[RevolverRob]

SBS barrels would be welcome.

I know the BLINK system doesn't seem to play well with shorter barrels than basically what's on the 1301T. But since the A300 is a different system, I wonder how it could do?

I'll admit to being supremely skeptical of short barreled gas guns, inertia and long recoil actions seem to rule the day for short shotguns.

[Centerfire]

I know the BLINK system doesn't seem to play well with shorter barrels than basically what's on the 1301T. But since the A300 is a different system, I wonder how it could do?

I'll admit to being supremely skeptical of short barreled gas guns, inertia and long recoil actions seem to rule the day for short shotguns.

They made the M4 work.

[RevolverRob]

They made the M4 work.

With full power shells, 14" M4s have problems with virtually all low-brass loads, like low recoil FFC and standard birdshot.

You can make a 14" M2 or even 10" A5 run on low recoil ammo by swapping recoil springs.

It's not impossible, I have no idea who well the A300's gas system takes to tuning compared to the BLINK system.

[Centerfire]

With full power shells, 14" M4s have problems with virtually all low-brass loads, like low recoil FFC and standard birdshot.

You can make a 14" M2 or even 10" A5 run on low recoil ammo by swapping recoil springs.

It's not impossible, I have no idea who well the A300's gas system takes to tuning compared to the BLINK system.

To put it bluntly, I'm not in this for low recoil. Obviously the reduced dwell time is a problem. The solution is more gas from full power loads. Benelli still makes and sells short barrels for the M4. I'd like one for the 1301 or the A300UP.

[RevolverRob]

To put it bluntly, I'm not in this for low recoil. Obviously the reduced dwell time is a problem. The solution is more gas from full power loads. Benelli still makes and sells short barrels for the M4. I'd like one for the 1301 or the A300UP.

I think you're also misunderstanding the core issue.

Chopping a 1301 down it doesn't run even with full power loads. It requires drilling bigger gas ports and lots of fiddling, not just heavier ammo and even then it doesn't run well. So a 1301 short barrel would be a no go from Beretta, because it simply won't run.

No idea if the A300 gas system is sufficiently different to solve that problem, hopefully it is.

[Centerfire]

I think you're also misunderstanding the core issue.

Chopping a 1301 down it doesn't run even with full power loads. It requires drilling bigger gas ports and lots of fiddling, not just heavier ammo and even then it doesn't run well. So a 1301 short barrel would be a no go from Beretta, because it simply won't run.

No idea if the A300 gas system is sufficiently different to solve that problem, hopefully it is.

Respectfully disagree. I'm not misunderstanding, these guns at their core are just short stroke gas piston systems. Gas ports would obviously change, the reduced dwell time is what makes the system finicky and narrows functional ammunition selection. I don't have any experience with the A300 but do with the A400. The main issue appears to be keeping the wide ammunition envelope and the economics of developing the gas system parts that would go along with the short barrel, to meet that requirement, versus how many would actually be sold. At a minimum it appears the large spring would need to be changed, maybe the piston itself. The M4 has a solid business case in the US whereas the 1301T does not. One would think, however, that without the minimum 18" requirement, organizations in the EU would be interested in a shorter barrel and not just a few fringe buyers in the US. Of all the factory SBR's on the market, the 1301T (and presumably the A300UP too) would be outstanding due to it's already short receiver.

[Pnut]

I know it’s still a little too soon, but has anyone found a source for the A300 UP forend yet? I checked MGW and the Beretta site with no luck…

[Ben_G]

The important difference between the M4 ARGO system and the gas setup on the 1301 and A300 (the A300 piston location and tuning used the 1301 system as a template) is the gas hole location. The ARGO system is incredibly close to the chamber, meaning changing the barrel length/dwell time has some wiggle room for tuning with port size and springs; the 1301 and A300 Patrol gas holes are MUCH further down the barrel, meaning the dwell time and backpressure you have to play with by chopping the barrel is DRASTICALLY different. To get a barrel short enough to be worth a change, we'd have to move the gas hole location, which means a redesign of the entire system between the bolt and the gas hole for anything to work (op rod, gas piston, piston stop, springs, etc). That is not an inexpensive development program, and those reduced operating windows mean we'll eat into our broad spectrum reliability which is one of the platform's core features. And all this to compete in an extremely small niche market already served by a solid product that's under our corporate umbrella.

It'd be a really neat gun at the end of the day, but the juice:squeeze ratio doesn't really shake out.

As for the Patrol forends; we only have them coded as spare parts right now, not for resale. There's no other gun it'll fit on right now so there's no reason to have it out there just yet. It'll be available for resale when it makes sense to do so.

[Super77]

BenG, does that mean you couldn’t chop the barrel on something like an A400 Xtreme Plus, from say 24” to 21” or even 18.5”? I had thought about doing that in lieu of finding a 1301 Comp. I already have the A400 with a spare barrel.

[e_stern]

BenG, does that mean you couldn’t chop the barrel on something like an A400 Xtreme Plus, from say 24” to 21” or even 18.5”? I had thought about doing that in lieu of finding a 1301 Comp. I already have the A400 with a spare barrel.

An Xtreme Plus can be chopped to 21" easily and will still function because it's the same gas system and port size as the 1301 Comp.

Going to 18.5" will have problems because the gas cylinder/port is too far towards the muzzle and you'll short cycle at best.

[Ben_G]

BenG, does that mean you couldn’t chop the barrel on something like an A400 Xtreme Plus, from say 24” to 21” or even 18.5”? I had thought about doing that in lieu of finding a 1301 Comp. I already have the A400 with a spare barrel.

Ehhhh, generally I think as a company rep I'm supposed to say don't chop your barrel, and any such work should be done at a certified gunsmith... On the technical side, that barrel uses our further down-barrel gas piston location, which we use on anything 21" and up. Below that, the piston is in our 2nd location which is closer to the chamber which is needed for an 18.5". I'm actually not aware of anyone messing around with this, but I'm confident under 21" will not work, and any messing with that length will require fiddling with the gas holes.

[Super77]

Ehhhh, generally I think as a company rep I'm supposed to say don't chop your barrel, and any such work should be done at a certified gunsmith... On the technical side, that barrel uses our further down-barrel gas piston location, which we use on anything 21" and up. Below that, the piston is in our 2nd location which is closer to the chamber which is needed for an 18.5". I'm actually not aware of anyone messing around with this, but I'm confident under 21" will not work, and any messing with that length will require fiddling with the gas holes.


An Xtreme Plus can be chopped to 21" easily and will still function because it's the same gas system and port size as the 1301 Comp.

Going to 18.5" will have problems because the gas cylinder/port is too far towards the muzzle and you'll short cycle at best.

Understood, thank you. Sounds like it might be worth just getting a 1301T or Comp.

For the sake of academics, what size are the gas holes in a 21” model?

[e_stern]

Ehhhh, generally I think as a company rep I'm supposed to say don't chop your barrel, and any such work should be done at a certified gunsmith... On the technical side, that barrel uses our further down-barrel gas piston location, which we use on anything 21" and up. Below that, the piston is in our 2nd location which is closer to the chamber which is needed for an 18.5". I'm actually not aware of anyone messing around with this, but I'm confident under 21" will not work, and any messing with that length will require fiddling with the gas holes.

As a former company rep, and certified redneck, I can assure you that cutting an A400 X+ barrel below 21" will bork the system without hogging out the port.

Don't do this.

I did.

Not a good idea.

[thatguybryan]

Can’t wait to see some of these in the wild. Really tempted to pre order.

[Centerfire]

The important difference between the M4 ARGO system and the gas setup on the 1301 and A300 (the A300 piston location and tuning used the 1301 system as a template) is the gas hole location. The ARGO system is incredibly close to the chamber, meaning changing the barrel length/dwell time has some wiggle room for tuning with port size and springs; the 1301 and A300 Patrol gas holes are MUCH further down the barrel, meaning the dwell time and backpressure you have to play with by chopping the barrel is DRASTICALLY different. To get a barrel short enough to be worth a change, we'd have to move the gas hole location, which means a redesign of the entire system between the bolt and the gas hole for anything to work (op rod, gas piston, piston stop, springs, etc). That is not an inexpensive development program, and those reduced operating windows mean we'll eat into our broad spectrum reliability which is one of the platform's core features. And all this to compete in an extremely small niche market already served by a solid product that's under our corporate umbrella.

It'd be a really neat gun at the end of the day, but the juice:squeeze ratio doesn't really shake out.

As for the Patrol forends; we only have them coded as spare parts right now, not for resale. There's no other gun it'll fit on right now so there's no reason to have it out there just yet. It'll be available for resale when it makes sense to do so.

If a user was willing to accept a narrow range of ammunition, high brass 00 for example, would it be possible to make the system function with a 14" barrel and larger gas port?

[nalesq]

Looks like it’s now available for purchase:

https://www.bereli.com/beretta-a300-ultima-patrol-12-19-7-round-mag-tube-shotgun/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Cory]

If a user was willing to accept a narrow range of ammunition, high brass 00 for example, would it be possible to make the system function with a 14" barrel and larger gas port?

Pretty sure that's been answered as best as it can be. Deviation that far from stock throws any reliability testing they've done out the window.

With my 1301, Aridus ASA, and magpul stock it's pretty damn compact. Sitting in my single cab 90s F150 I can shoulder and point straight forward without hitting the windsheild. For a non-SBS thats absurd. And I dig it. I don't know if the UP will be that compact, but it seems like it's in the ball park.

Personally, I don't have a use case for an SBS or anything shorter than my 1301T. I'm curious why the desire? If it's just fun/because I can that works. I wonder how much velocity you loose going shorter, and what it means for pattern performance.

[LHS]

Personally, I don't have a use case for an SBS or anything shorter than my 1301T. I'm curious why the desire? If it's just fun/because I can that works. I wonder how much velocity you loose going shorter, and what it means for pattern performance.

It's a matter of balance. SBSs are just by nature less muzzle-heavy than non-SBSs of the same type. It makes them handier, and I've found smaller-statured students have a much easier time manipulating the gun over longer periods.

Velocity is very much individual load dependent, but as far as I know you don't lose a whole lot if any with most modern shells out of a 14" vs. an 18" bbl. Going down to 12" might change things a bit. It's something I ought to do some testing on with a chrono some day.

As for pattern size, it doesn't make much difference at all in my experience. It's much more about load, barrel quality, barrel contour (including choke), etc. The old myth about short barrels being of wider pattern likely comes from 'sawed offs' that remove any choke and have burrs at the muzzle to catch pellets/wads.

[Cory]

It's a matter of balance. SBSs are just by nature less muzzle-heavy than non-SBSs of the same type. It makes them handier, and I've found smaller-statured students have a much easier time manipulating the gun over longer periods.

Velocity is very much individual load dependent, but as far as I know you don't lose a whole lot if any with most modern shells out of a 14" vs. an 18" bbl. Going down to 12" might change things a bit. It's something I ought to do some testing on with a chrono some day.

As for pattern size, it doesn't make much difference at all in my experience. It's much more about load, barrel quality, barrel contour (including choke), etc. The old myth about short barrels being of wider pattern likely comes from 'sawed offs' that remove any choke and have burrs at the muzzle to catch pellets/wads.

I appreciate the info, man.

I never really thought about the balance aspect. Totally makes sense.

[Centerfire]

Pretty sure that's been answered as best as it can be. Deviation that far from stock throws any reliability testing they've done out the window.

With my 1301, Aridus ASA, and magpul stock it's pretty damn compact. Sitting in my single cab 90s F150 I can shoulder and point straight forward without hitting the windsheild. For a non-SBS thats absurd. And I dig it. I don't know if the UP will be that compact, but it seems like it's in the ball park.

Personally, I don't have a use case for an SBS or anything shorter than my 1301T. I'm curious why the desire? If it's just fun/because I can that works. I wonder how much velocity you loose going shorter, and what it means for pattern performance.

I believe my question is more nuanced than what has been discussed.

[RevolverRob]

I believe my question is more nuanced than what has been discussed.

Is it?

The answer is: Beretta isn't going to bother figuring it all out - because they haven't found a balance that makes it work. The implicit statement there is that it has been tried. And it's even been acknowledged on an individual redneck level by a former Beretta Rep.

Non-Beretta individuals who have tried to make SBS 1301s had to hog out the gas port and still had reliability issues. It's been talked about in the 1301T Mega Thread and over on Enos' forum.

In other words you can give it a shot with your own gun and dime. But Beretta isn't planning on it and won't be advising you on how to do it. I think that's been pretty clear thus far.

And the answer to your nuanced question is; You can make anything work with enough time and money. But the simple solution(s) are not likely to produce a reliable result.

[Ben_G]

If a user was willing to accept a narrow range of ammunition, high brass 00 for example, would it be possible to make the system function with a 14" barrel and larger gas port?

Short version, not practically.

Long version, I believe to get that barrel length to be anything but a single shot or blowback operated it would require shifting the piston/gas hole back a few inches. That means redesigning everything between the gas hole and the bolt, which takes a serious amount of engineering, testing, and industrialization.

See again juice:squeeze reference. You're talking about a very small market, and our engineers aren't sitting around with nothing to do. Any program they are working on means there's another they're not and as I've alluded to, there's a lot we're working on. Worth noting: our shotgun engineering team are the same guys for the full range of Beretta shotguns; so the discussion isn't splitting hairs with 'what color tac model are we working on next' or 'do we monkey around trying to get an SBS to work again' (it has been tried before). It's "okay, what's next for A300, A400, 1301, 686, 687, 694, DT11, SL3, Ultraleggero, etc for new Waterfowl, Sporting, and Multigun comp, distributor special makes, etc variants?" .

Big business product development is a constant balancing game of figuring out not a good answer but the best answer in a pool of great ones, and doing all this trying to hit a moving target 1-4 years out. From what I've seen, the math doesn't even land a SBS 1301T in the top 50 items in the queue, right now or for the foreseeable future.

[TCinVA]

With my 1301, Aridus ASA, and magpul stock it's pretty damn compact.


It should be noted that the Beretta 1301 Tactical with the Aridus SGA adapter and stock on it is shorter than the factory Benelli M4 SBS.

[GJM]

I have never understood the fascination with the Benelli M4. Heavy, hard to accessorize, expensive, with dreadful stock options. My least favorite SBR. From right to left, M4, Benelli pump, Benelli M2, 1301.

101138

[gato naranja]

I have never understood the fascination with the Benelli M4. Heavy, hard to accessorize, expensive, with dreadful stock options. My least favorite SBR.

I preemptively censor all my Benelli M4 comments, but I am nodding. I am sure it is a magic wand for the right people, but not me.

The schematic of the A300 UP makes it look like it has (hat tip to Roy Dunlap) "more parts than two alarm clocks" compared to an 870, and I don't know enough about the current A300 line to hazard a guess as to how big or small a PITA it is to thoroughly clean and/or dry out when I unintentionally get comprehensive crud all over it.

I am eager for one of the other old boys around this neck of the woods to pick one up for research purposes.

[perlslacker]

Looks like it’s now available for purchase:

https://www.bereli.com/beretta-a300-ultima-patrol-12-19-7-round-mag-tube-shotgun/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They’re on Gunprime too https://gunprime.com/products/new-release-beretta-a300-ultima-patrol-12-ga-semi-auto-19-barrel-black-j32ct11

I preordered through a different site so I continue to refresh the product page every 2 secondswait patiently.

[rob_s]

I have never understood the fascination with the Benelli M4.

I gotta agree.

I remember it hitting the commercial market in the early 2000s? It spread like wildfire through our gun club, and then just as quickly petered put as literally every single one refused to run. For me, that’s removed it from consideration thereafter.

I had an M3 for a short time and it was kinda fun.

I probably wouldn’t be participating in any of these discussions if (a) they still made the M2 in a rifle sight version and (b) the only avenue to me getting a gas “fighting” shotgun into the house didn’t run through “needs to work exactly the same as my clays gun”.

Which brings me back to the new a300 option. Looking to sell my ak to “fund” more due to equilibrium than actual cash flow.

[TCinVA]

I'll be blunt:

Most of the time when I see someone online lauding the M4 its "The Marines use it! So it has to be tough!" and that comes mostly from people who don't actually run the gun. I've seen a few M4's show up to class, but only a few. That's not to say that there aren't any M4 owners who seriously train with it, but of the small percentage of people who train with their defensive firearms I'd wager that the M4 owners to serious users ratio is significantly smaller than with other guns we could name.

Here's a good example of the ridiculous propaganda thinking that surrounds the M4:


"Field stripping a 1301 without tools or eyepro is a risky proposition whereas an M4 is simple and durable enough for those who feast on crayons and marry strippers to do it in the dark"


Naturally I found this puzzling as I've disassembled a 1301 more times than I can possibly count, including stripping one down as far as it can be disassembled without using a chop saw in armorer's class. I didn't find the process particularly onerous, nor did field stripping require tools and glasses. When this was pointed out:



"So, thanks for proving my point? I'm not saying the 1301 is the 1014 we have at home but claiming a LARP'ers bird gun is just as good is as Kosher to giving your bosses wife a footrub."


...which naturally defies anything even approaching logic because nothing I said in comparing the field stripping procedure of both guns...which there is actual manufacturer video instructions for...supports this fantasist's assertions. I asked on what planet the 1301's field stripping procedure documented by Beretta was more onerously complex than the field stripping procedure documented for the Benelli.



The one where Marines are issued M1014's and LARP'ers shill tacticool bird guns to save less than $500? Beretta's 1301 marketing blitz over the last 18 months has been an obvious attempt at drawing attention away from Turknelli's eating into the sales of both models.


And it only gets even more retarded from there. That's the way practically any discussion of the 1301 vs. the M4 goes. People who have experience with both seem to be an extremely tiny minority. But there are lots of fucking retards eager to drool all over your shoes because MARINE CORPS!!! Input from actual Marines who used them in combat is fine, but you almost never see that. And usually they're not the ones drooling on your shoes about it.

The M4 isn't a bad shotgun. It's a very good shotgun as semi-automatic shotguns go. It's also heavy, expensive, has so-so ergonomics, it's picky about ammo, it requires significant work on the part of the owner to get a full magazine capacity on it, and the aftermarket for the gun in areas that are important (Like a stock that doesn't suck) is dogshit. The 1301 is much more readily adaptable to a user than the M4, has better ergonomics, less felt recoil, runs anything you feed it, it's significantly lighter, significantly less expensive (for now)...in any objective measure of performance and usability it outclasses the M4.

I can literally own whatever I want as a primary semi-auto shotgun. I can take however much money I want to spend and write it off as a legitimate business expense. I own two 1301 shotguns and zero Benelli M4's. It just doesn't do anything for me. It's not a bad gun by any stretch but there are other guns that do the job better.

If you're looking to own the gun that's in Call of Duty...and let's face it, that's where a shitload of sales of that gun come from...cool. If you just like it better...cool. I've got no beef with buying what you like for whatever reason you like it. But from an objective "using the defensive shotgun to do defensive shotgun things" I'm going to tell you it doesn't do defensive shotgun things better than the Beretta offerings.

While I may not be the only guy on the planet who can run a shotgun, I run one a hell of a lot better than most and I run a defensive shotgun much more often than most and on the many occasions where I've run one I've yet to have the thought that I need to run out and buy one because it does something better than what I've already got.

[Super77]

I'll be blunt:

Most of the time when I see someone online lauding the M4 its "The Marines use it! So it has to be tough!" and that comes mostly from people who don't actually run the gun.
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I only ever see M4s being used for, like, guarding access points and whatnot. I’ve never seen one used in a field/maneuver setting.

They’re also tuned for a very specific load and don’t have to run anything other than that (Olin 9 ball).

[RevolverRob]

I really can't fathom why we don't yet have an adapter to put the Magpul SGA on the Benelli M4. My only conclusion is that there are so few M4 sales that it isn't worth the effort. If I pick up a mini-mill this year, maybe I'll build one. I don't have an M4, but I could buy one just to watch M4 owners shit the bed when I did it.

I do think the IWC light/QD mount that is well integrated into the tube is a slick design. Aside possibly from the M-Lok slots on the Yooper forend that setup is one of the smartest and slickest sets I've seen. With the caveat that I haven't yet played with it.

[EzGoingKev]

The 1301 circle jerk is getting pretty deep here.

[perlslacker]

I'll be blunt:

Most of the time when I see someone online lauding the M4 its "The Marines use it! So it has to be tough!" and that comes mostly from people who don't actually run the gun. I've seen a few M4's show up to class, but only a few. That's not to say that there aren't any M4 owners who seriously train with it, but of the small percentage of people who train with their defensive firearms I'd wager that the M4 owners to serious users ratio is significantly smaller than with other guns we could name.

Here's a good example of the ridiculous propaganda thinking that surrounds the M4:


Naturally I found this puzzling as I've disassembled a 1301 more times than I can possibly count, including stripping one down as far as it can be disassembled without using a chop saw in armorer's class. I didn't find the process particularly onerous, nor did field stripping require tools and glasses. When this was pointed out:



...which naturally defies anything even approaching logic because nothing I said in comparing the field stripping procedure of both guns...which there is actual manufacturer video instructions for...supports this fantasist's assertions. I asked on what planet the 1301's field stripping procedure documented by Beretta was more onerously complex than the field stripping procedure documented for the Benelli.



And it only gets even more retarded from there. That's the way practically any discussion of the 1301 vs. the M4 goes. People who have experience with both seem to be an extremely tiny minority. But there are lots of fucking retards eager to drool all over your shoes because MARINE CORPS!!! Input from actual Marines who used them in combat is fine, but you almost never see that. And usually they're not the ones drooling on your shoes about it.

The M4 isn't a bad shotgun. It's a very good shotgun as semi-automatic shotguns go. It's also heavy, expensive, has so-so ergonomics, it's picky about ammo, it requires significant work on the part of the owner to get a full magazine capacity on it, and the aftermarket for the gun in areas that are important (Like a stock that doesn't suck) is dogshit. The 1301 is much more readily adaptable to a user than the M4, has better ergonomics, less felt recoil, runs anything you feed it, it's significantly lighter, significantly less expensive (for now)...in any objective measure of performance and usability it outclasses the M4.

I can literally own whatever I want as a primary semi-auto shotgun. I can take however much money I want to spend and write it off as a legitimate business expense. I own two 1301 shotguns and zero Benelli M4's. It just doesn't do anything for me. It's not a bad gun by any stretch but there are other guns that do the job better.

If you're looking to own the gun that's in Call of Duty...and let's face it, that's where a shitload of sales of that gun come from...cool. If you just like it better...cool. I've got no beef with buying what you like for whatever reason you like it. But from an objective "using the defensive shotgun to do defensive shotgun things" I'm going to tell you it doesn't do defensive shotgun things better than the Beretta offerings.

While I may not be the only guy on the planet who can run a shotgun, I run one a hell of a lot better than most and I run a defensive shotgun much more often than most and on the many occasions where I've run one I've yet to have the thought that I need to run out and buy one because it does something better than what I've already got.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

I don't know the guy you're quoting, but he reads like someone who's been brain damaged by too much time in FB flexoff groups. The psychology is "more expensive, therefore more good" and then a lot of mental gymnastics to support that premise in cases where it doesn't apply.

[kwb377]

The 1301 circle jerk is getting pretty deep here.

101174

[Centerfire]

I really can't fathom why we don't yet have an adapter to put the Magpul SGA on the Benelli M4. My only conclusion is that there are so few M4 sales that it isn't worth the effort. If I pick up a mini-mill this year, maybe I'll build one. I don't have an M4, but I could buy one just to watch M4 owners shit the bed when I did it.

I do think the IWC light/QD mount that is well integrated into the tube is a slick design. Aside possibly from the M-Lok slots on the Yooper forend that setup is one of the smartest and slickest sets I've seen. With the caveat that I haven't yet played with it.

Same reason as the 930/940, the recoil spring is in the stock.

[RevolverRob]

Same reason as the 930/940, the recoil spring is in the stock.

Ah, I see that now looking at a proper receiver schematic and not just the stock schematic, which shows a tube, but doesn't actually tell you what's inside (I mistakenly ASSumed it was merely a tube for allowing the adjustable stock to adjust).

[e_stern]

I'll be blunt:

Most of the time when I see someone online lauding the M4 its "The Marines use it! So it has to be tough!" and that comes mostly from people who don't actually run the gun. I've seen a few M4's show up to class, but only a few. That's not to say that there aren't any M4 owners who seriously train with it, but of the small percentage of people who train with their defensive firearms I'd wager that the M4 owners to serious users ratio is significantly smaller than with other guns we could name.

Here's a good example of the ridiculous propaganda thinking that surrounds the M4:


Naturally I found this puzzling as I've disassembled a 1301 more times than I can possibly count, including stripping one down as far as it can be disassembled without using a chop saw in armorer's class. I didn't find the process particularly onerous, nor did field stripping require tools and glasses. When this was pointed out:



...which naturally defies anything even approaching logic because nothing I said in comparing the field stripping procedure of both guns...which there is actual manufacturer video instructions for...supports this fantasist's assertions. I asked on what planet the 1301's field stripping procedure documented by Beretta was more onerously complex than the field stripping procedure documented for the Benelli.



And it only gets even more retarded from there. That's the way practically any discussion of the 1301 vs. the M4 goes. People who have experience with both seem to be an extremely tiny minority. But there are lots of fucking retards eager to drool all over your shoes because MARINE CORPS!!! Input from actual Marines who used them in combat is fine, but you almost never see that. And usually they're not the ones drooling on your shoes about it.

The M4 isn't a bad shotgun. It's a very good shotgun as semi-automatic shotguns go. It's also heavy, expensive, has so-so ergonomics, it's picky about ammo, it requires significant work on the part of the owner to get a full magazine capacity on it, and the aftermarket for the gun in areas that are important (Like a stock that doesn't suck) is dogshit. The 1301 is much more readily adaptable to a user than the M4, has better ergonomics, less felt recoil, runs anything you feed it, it's significantly lighter, significantly less expensive (for now)...in any objective measure of performance and usability it outclasses the M4.

I can literally own whatever I want as a primary semi-auto shotgun. I can take however much money I want to spend and write it off as a legitimate business expense. I own two 1301 shotguns and zero Benelli M4's. It just doesn't do anything for me. It's not a bad gun by any stretch but there are other guns that do the job better.

If you're looking to own the gun that's in Call of Duty...and let's face it, that's where a shitload of sales of that gun come from...cool. If you just like it better...cool. I've got no beef with buying what you like for whatever reason you like it. But from an objective "using the defensive shotgun to do defensive shotgun things" I'm going to tell you it doesn't do defensive shotgun things better than the Beretta offerings.

While I may not be the only guy on the planet who can run a shotgun, I run one a hell of a lot better than most and I run a defensive shotgun much more often than most and on the many occasions where I've run one I've yet to have the thought that I need to run out and buy one because it does something better than what I've already got.

[/FONT][/COLOR]



The hilarious part is.... my new M4 just showed up to my FFL today..... LMAO

[Centerfire]

It should be noted that the Beretta 1301 Tactical with the Aridus SGA adapter and stock on it is shorter than the factory Benelli M4 SBS.

This is sort of a weird comparison. A modified 1301T in an almost unusable configuration against the M4 in only the fixed length (ape index) versions. The M4 has three factory stock configurations, four of you count the fixed length telescoping stock. The adjustable stock M4 SBS is shorter than the 1301T with SGA stock. What would be interesting is an adjustable length stock for the 1301T and A300UP.

[TCinVA]

This is sort of a weird comparison. A modified 1301T in an almost unusable configuration against the M4 in only the fixed length (ape index) versions.

The comparison of the factory M4 SBS next to the Aridus'd 1301 was done at the Beretta factory when I took armorer's training because those were the guns that were there to compare against one another.

[TCinVA]

The hilarious part is.... my new M4 just showed up to my FFL today..... LMAO

Everybody has fetishes.

[LHS]

This is sort of a weird comparison. A modified 1301T in an almost unusable configuration against the M4 in only the fixed length (ape index) versions. The M4 has three factory stock configurations, four of you count the fixed length telescoping stock. The adjustable stock M4 SBS is shorter than the 1301T with SGA stock. What would be interesting is an adjustable length stock for the 1301T and A300UP.

'almost unusuable configuration'?

[Centerfire]

'almost unusuable configuration'?

I have adult length arms.

[LHS]

I have adult length arms.

Okey-dokey then.

[DDTSGM]

This is sort of a weird comparison. A modified 1301T in an almost unusable configuration against the M4 in only the fixed length (ape index) versions. The M4 has three factory stock configurations, four of you count the fixed length telescoping stock. The adjustable stock M4 SBS is shorter than the 1301T with SGA stock. What would be interesting is an adjustable length stock for the 1301T and A300UP.


'almost unusuable configuration'?


I have adult length arms.

I may not be getting the point, BUT, if you (Centerfire) are saying the 1301T with SGA stock is too short to be usable, I probably disaqgree. It's easier for most 'adult armed' folks to use a shorter stock than it is for the shorter armed person to use a standard-length stock. (Hope that reads the way I wanted)

[Centerfire]

I may not be getting the point, BUT, if you (Centerfire) are saying the 1301T with SGA stock is too short to be usable, I probably disaqgree. It's easier for most 'adult armed' folks to use a shorter stock than it is for the shorter armed person to use a standard-length stock. (Hope that reads the way I wanted)

Perhaps I misread TC but I understood the comparison to be the SGA without spacers. My response to LHS was intended to be cheeky. My wife prefers the the spacers taken out, she's 5'4“. No spacers would be perfect with body armor.

[RevolverRob]

While there are no 'universal' truths about stock length, it appears that the average male in North America has an LOP of 14.5". Normal distribution being what it is, that suggests only 25% of males need a stock longer than 14.5" and only 25% need a stock shorter than 14.5".

However, the fact that women make up 50% of our population and have on average a 1" shorter LOP (13.5") means that if you're building a gun for both sexes and multiple frames, you basically want a 13.5" LOP and spacers to spacer it out to 14.5". That would cover roughly 75% of males and 75% of females in the United States.

If you did a 13" and had up to 2" of spacers to make it a 15" you'd cover 90% of shooters. When I look at the Yooper...it's 13" and you can use spacers or add the kick-off system and recoil pad and get it up to 15"....

I really wish Benelli would figure this out. Their 15" LOP stocks are too long for basically 75% of the entire shooting population by at least a 1/2" and probably closer to 1" for most folks.

[LHS]

While there are no 'universal' truths about stock length, it appears that the average male in North America has an LOP of 14.5". Normal distribution being what it is, that suggests only 25% of males need a stock longer than 14.5" and only 25% need a stock shorter than 14.5".

However, the fact that women make up 50% of our population and have on average a 1" shorter LOP (13.5") means that if you're building a gun for both sexes and multiple frames, you basically want a 13.5" LOP and spacers to spacer it out to 14.5". That would cover roughly 75% of males and 75% of females in the United States.

If you did a 13" and had up to 2" of spacers to make it a 15" you'd cover 90% of shooters. When I look at the Yooper...it's 13" and you can use spacers or add the kick-off system and recoil pad and get it up to 15"....

I really wish Benelli would figure this out. Their 15" LOP stocks are too long for basically 75% of the entire shooting population by at least a 1/2" and probably closer to 1" for most folks.

14.5" is too long for the vast majority of people when squared up in a proper stance. A stock that long makes you blade away and increases issues with reach.

Fwiw, I'm a snowflake and set my guns up at 12.75" when I can (sorry GT), and I'm 6' even with proportional arms. In our classes, we often see people coming in with spacers on their stocks, and generally by lunch on day 1 they're pulling most if not all of them out.

[RevolverRob]

Was thinking about this earlier. Given the Yooper was optimized for LE132-00 in terms of performance and reliability. Were there any comparisons made with the accuracy between the Yooper and the 1301?

In other words, was there an ability to tune the performance a bit to get the 9th pellet flier under control more so than in other guns? Bearing in mind, of course, that 9-pellet FC still performs well overall and shotgun barrels are variable.

Ben_G

Just thinking about this, because LE132-00 is the most common FC load out there and one of the few I've been able to consistently find for years. If the Yooper is even a few percent better with it than the 1301 that would be another point in its favor.

[Ben_G]

Was thinking about this earlier. Given the Yooper was optimized for LE132-00 in terms of performance and reliability. Were there any comparisons made with the accuracy between the Yooper and the 1301?

In other words, was there an ability to tune the performance a bit to get the 9th pellet flier under control more so than in other guns? Bearing in mind, of course, that 9-pellet FC still performs well overall and shotgun barrels are variable.

Ben_G

Just thinking about this, because LE132-00 is the most common FC load out there and one of the few I've been able to consistently find for years. If the Yooper is even a few percent better with it than the 1301 that would be another point in its favor.

The performance/reliability we were tuning for was all really under the reliability umbrella for feed/function/timing/gas system/durability/MRBS. As this is a defensive gun which can accept a WIDE amount of ammo, we really wanted to be able point to a loading and say 'this is what we recommend for HD/ Duty use for something that NEEDs to go bang every time you pull the trigger'.

As for patterning, the 1301 will likely still be superior across the board with that Steelium forcing cone. Those barrels are 100% a selling point favoring the 1301 in my book (not saying A300 UP is bad, I just think the 1301T is the best OEM one on the market). In my personal messing around on a sample size of 1 on a cold rainy day; I got about an open hand sized pattern from the UP at ~15m while a 1301 was a closed fist from the same spot.

[TCinVA]

While there are no 'universal' truths about stock length, it appears that the average male in North America has an LOP of 14.5". Normal distribution being what it is, that suggests only 25% of males need a stock longer than 14.5" and only 25% need a stock shorter than 14.5".

However, the fact that women make up 50% of our population and have on average a 1" shorter LOP (13.5") means that if you're building a gun for both sexes and multiple frames, you basically want a 13.5" LOP and spacers to spacer it out to 14.5". That would cover roughly 75% of males and 75% of females in the United States.

If you did a 13" and had up to 2" of spacers to make it a 15" you'd cover 90% of shooters. When I look at the Yooper...it's 13" and you can use spacers or add the kick-off system and recoil pad and get it up to 15"....

I really wish Benelli would figure this out. Their 15" LOP stocks are too long for basically 75% of the entire shooting population by at least a 1/2" and probably closer to 1" for most folks.

This photo illustrates the point nicely, I think:

101339

The CDC says the average height of an American male is 5'9" tall. Unless you are hanging out there on the same part of the distribution curve as the people with an IQ higher than 120, that stock is going to be way too long for you in anything approaching a fighting stance.

Tom recently held a shotgun IDC. A client of mine went and scored second place in the class, this despite giving up more than 100 pounds and almost a foot to the person who finished first in the class. She spent time working with me on manipulations and setup and involved some family in getting her a replacement for the Magpul SGA's butt pad that just filled in the hole removal of the butt pad left. No cushion...but since she knew how to use push/pull to mitigate recoil she didn't end up with a sore shoulder like some other folks in the class grumbled about. And the shortened up length allowed her to really put her entire body weight behind the gun and allowed her to have real power on the gun to run the action reliably.

Understanding how to use her body weight to full advantage, how to perform manipulations reliably for her physiology, and how to set the gun up for her optimal performance allowed her to use a rather humble looking 870 to best a bunch of dudes bigger and stronger than her using 1301's. And as good as she's gotten with a gauge, there's a lot more room for her to improve on some things that will make her hell on wheels when she really starts hitting at mastering the gun should she decide she wants to pursue it further. Shortening up that stock even just a little bit more opened up the possibilities for her performance.

We're better at delivering power and resisting oncoming force if we can square our hips towards whatever it is we are fighting.

[RevolverRob]

Unless you are hanging out there on the same part of the distribution curve as the people with an IQ higher than 120

Hey man...we can't all be exemplary in all forms of life. I got lucky to get on the over-side of the IQ curve. The arms/torso/height curve I wasn't so lucky on...21-22" arms to fit my 5'7" height - means I like my stocks somewhere right around 13".

Admittedly, I'd rather be over on the IQ curve...because I can chop stocks back. :confused: :eek:

[Lex Luthier]

Hey man...we can't all be exemplary in all forms of life. I got lucky to get on the over-side of the IQ curve. The arms/torso/height curve I wasn't so lucky on...21-22" arms to fit my 5'7" height - means I like my stocks somewhere right around 13".

Admittedly, I'd rather be over on the IQ curve...because I can chop stocks back. :confused: :eek:

Smarter than the block of walnut seems a good starting point, no?

[Totem Polar]

The irony of all this M4 larping put down talk on a forum where we have a regular and respected participant who’s actually used one for real is killing me.

I still want the A300 UP a whole lot more than an M4 though, don’t get me wrong.
:)

[TCinVA]

The irony of all this M4 larping put down talk on a forum where we have a regular and respected participant who’s actually used one for real is killing me.

I still want the A300 UP a whole lot more than an M4 though, don’t get me wrong.
:)

I recall the story about the SAS guy who performed a series of ballistic beheadings in a Taliban bomb factory using an M4 that had an EOTech mounted on top of it. As shotgun work goes, it's a vulgar display of proficiency.

And I even understand why they use the EOTech. Having the circle of the reticle function as essentially a quick visual container for buckshot hit zone is a pretty neat thing to have when you are making split-second decisions about background and projectile accountability.

But it's still a pretty awkward setup for a defensive/offensive shotgun. Likely that fellow was using the collapsible stock version which is a bit better since he could shorten it up to account for his body armor. The fixed stock ones are just silly if you are wearing armor.

[RevolverRob]

Smarter than the block of walnut seems a good starting point, no?

And yet Benelli seems to be consistently outsmarted by a hunk of plastic...:confused: :eek:

If I bought an M4 (which trust me, I've thought about). I guess I'd go with the Mesa Urbino. Which isn't my favorite stock design, but at least is 12.5" in LOP and has a cheek riser for when you mount an optic. Add a Ti tube extension to de-neuter the capacity, and the IWC light mount and you could have a decently setup M4. For about $1000 more than setting up a 1301 or about 1800 bucks more than the Yooper.

Which still doesn't stop me from considering it, since I'm on a big shotgun kick right now and when I'm spending Daydream Money it doesn't matter what I spend...:rolleyes:

[Dave Williams]

And yet Benelli seems to be consistently outsmarted by a hunk of plastic...:confused: :eek:

If I bought an M4 (which trust me, I've thought about). I guess I'd go with the Mesa Urbino. Which isn't my favorite stock design, but at least is 12.5" in LOP and has a cheek riser for when you mount an optic. Add a Ti tube extension to de-neuter the capacity, and the IWC light mount and you could have a decently setup M4. For about $1000 more than setting up a 1301 or about 1800 bucks more than the Yooper.

Which still doesn't stop me from considering it, since I'm on a big shotgun kick right now and when I'm spending Daydream Money it doesn't matter what I spend...:rolleyes:

Do it, do it. 101396

[Pnut]

Completely off the topic of the A300, but I was able to cut down the stock of my M1 and my friend’s M4 field stick by about 2 inches… but I still like my Magpul’d 1301 more!!!

[Centerfire]

https://youtu.be/xgTgq7YyIMY

[Pnut]

Good video! He didn’t address this, but it looks like the charging handles are not interchangeable too.

[idahojess]

I picked up one of these because, well, ahem, the other brand I bought recently was having some issues and heading back. I braved the wind today and put 46 rounds through.

I put three metal targets on the target stand to keep it from blowing over.

My paper target blew off of the cardboard in the wind, so I just shot at the cardboard I brought and some bowling pins that were at the range. I wasn't out very long -- I figured another paper target would blow away, too.

But, the A300 ran like a top with no hiccups at all. Primarily bird shot with about five rounds of Federal personal defense buck, which is rated at 1145fps on the box. No issues with the low brass junky Super Target Winchester that I had trouble with in the Mossberg (along with the other issue I had with the Mossberg).

101644

I really struggle with the crossbolt safety (probably a topic for another thread) but, so far, very nice gun. I can see why A300's have such good reputations.
This was about 10 yards with the Federal personal defense stuff. I had one group that was slightly bigger, but still tight enough.

101645

Obviously, not a lot of rounds, but good so far.

[Toonces]

The Appleton, WI Scheels had two A300UPs on the rack for $1000 today. They were sitting next to a pistol grip 1301T for $1650. I don’t see a lot of people picking the 1301 with a $600+ price differential. The A300UP for-end is a winner, I’ll buy at least one to put on one of my 1301Cs. May need to tone down the checkering… The 1301T was about 1/2” shorter. I doubt a casual shopper will notice the operating system difference between the A300 and 1301.

[No.6]

The Appleton, WI Scheels had two A300UPs on the rack for $1000 today. They were sitting next to a pistol grip 1301T for $1650. I don’t see a lot of people picking the 1301 with a $600+ price differential. The A300UP for-end is a winner, I’ll buy at least one to put on one of my 1301Cs. May need to tone down the checkering… The 1301T was about 1/2” shorter. I doubt a casual shopper will notice the operating system difference between the A300 and 1301.

So the market reaction to the A300UP on the part of retailers is to jack up the 1301T's price above MSRP? Wasn't the original intent to make the Beretta semi-auto shotgun more affordable?

[rob_s]

The Appleton, WI Scheels had two A300UPs on the rack for $1000 today. They were sitting next to a pistol grip 1301T for $1650.


So the market reaction to the A300UP on the part of retailers is to jack up the 1301T's price above MSRP? Wasn't the original intent to make the Beretta semi-auto shotgun more affordable?

What an odd interpretation…

Perhaps the 1301 price was simply a reaction to availability, and has nothing to do with the A300UP?

Looks like it’s a ~$130 markup in the 1301?

I’m not familiar with the retailer, but perhaps they expect people to docker (as is common in many gunshops) to get the price down?

[EzGoingKev]

What an odd interpretation…

Perhaps the 1301 price was simply a reaction to availability, and has nothing to do with the A300UP?

Looks like it’s a ~$130 markup in the 1301?

I’m not familiar with the retailer, but perhaps they expect people to docker (as is common in many gunshops) to get the price down?
They are not the only one listing the 1301 at a markup. Beretta lists MSRP for this model at $1509. Where did these guys come up with $1720?

101662

Bereli is not the only one.

[rob_s]

They are not the only one listing the 1301 at a markup. Beretta lists MSRP for this model at $1509. Where did these guys come up with $1720?


Right, but the leap from “retailer making up 1301” to “because of the a300UP” is a long one.

It’s been well over 20 years since I worked in a gun shop, but I know that back then we were often at the mercy of our distributors. Perhaps these retailers are being told something different.

It’s also e to rely possible that the beretta site is wrong. We keep hearing that the 1301 is going to have price increases.

[TCinVA]

Keep in mind that some retailers...especially online retailers...have a habit of putting pricing information out there that is below MAP.

[ssb]

It’s also e to rely possible that the beretta site is wrong. We keep hearing that the 1301 is going to have price increases.

I bought my 1301 for $949 in late 2020. Today’s prices are around 40% higher, and often more than that.

I wonder what would justify yet another major price increase.

[EzGoingKev]

I bought my 1301 for $949 in late 2020. Today’s prices are around 40% higher, and often more than that.

A big part of the "1301 is better than the M4" mantra always was the price.

I am not saying the 1301 is not a good gun but the fact that it was half the price of the Benelli was a huge factor in it's popularity.

[DamonL]

I bought my 1301 for $949 in late 2020. Today’s prices are around 40% higher, and often more than that.

I wonder what would justify yet another major price increase.

I think you bought a Gen 1 at the closeout price. The prices dropped into that range just before the Gen 2 came out.

[Ben_G]

I bought my 1301 for $949 in late 2020. Today’s prices are around 40% higher, and often more than that.

I wonder what would justify yet another major price increase.

We recalculate our overhead at the end of each year and depending on the impact, roll that into the next year's pricing. Energy went through the roof in Italy last year (I think there were some sectors were it tripled), so everything coming from over there got reevaluated for 2023.

[RevolverRob]

We recalculate our overhead at the end of each year and depending on the impact, roll that into the next year's pricing. Energy went through the roof in Italy last year (I think there were some sectors were it tripled), so everything coming from over there got reevaluated for 2023.

On the business side, I think that's completely reasonable.

On the market side - the moderate disconnect between Beretta Italy and Beretta USA - means it looks like you guys are pushing the 1301 prices up, because the Yooper has hit the market.

I understand there are limited things you guys can do about that. But I don't think many Americans perceive a difference between "Beretta USA" and "Beretta Italy" - folks just tend to see "Beretta". So folks aren't drawing that particular distinction overall.

Of course the roll over begs the question - when energy prices go down, will the product prices go down as well?

__

For folks pointing out that the difference between a 1301 and M4 was half price. Y'all haven't priced M4s lately, have you? $2200 isn't an uncommon price. While the 1301 at $14-1500 isn't half the price, it is about 1/3rd less expensive.

[JHC]

On the business side, I think that's completely reasonable.

On the market side - the moderate disconnect between Beretta Italy and Beretta USA - means it looks like you guys are pushing the 1301 prices up, because the Yooper has hit the market.

I understand there are limited things you guys can do about that. But I don't think many Americans perceive a difference between "Beretta USA" and "Beretta Italy" - folks just tend to see "Beretta". So folks aren't drawing that particular distinction overall.

Of course the roll over begs the question - when energy prices go down, will the product prices go down as well?

__

For folks pointing out that the difference between a 1301 and M4 was half price. Y'all haven't priced M4s lately, have you? $2200 isn't an uncommon price. While the 1301 at $14-1500 isn't half the price, it is about 1/3rd less expensive.

Energy prices are off the chain in Europe. Close friends from Sweden tell me relatives are paying more for their monthly electric bill than their house payment.

[ssb]

I think you bought a Gen 1 at the closeout price. The prices dropped into that range just before the Gen 2 came out.

No, I unfortunately missed the boat on those — wasn’t as clued in on shotguns at the time. My recollection is that those were around $6-700. Mine is a Gen 1.5 — it has the upgraded bolt release but no chokes. It was… difficult to find during the 2020 gun panic.

[Navin Johnson]

Energy prices are off the chain in Europe. Close friends from Sweden tell me relatives are paying more for their monthly electric bill than their house payment.

Not to derail….. imagine when the US gov has control of the main source of energy after fossil is gone there will be no market forces……anywho

Sportsman’s Wear house has 1301t’s listed at $1600 ish

[Hambo]

Local prices, IIRC:
Ti Cerakote M4 was $2400
Pistol grip 1301T was $1600-1650

Soooo, my dreams of a sub-$1K A300UP are probably just that.

[mmc45414]

Energy prices are off the chain in Europe. Close friends from Sweden tell me relatives are paying more for their monthly electric bill than their house payment.Traveling this week with a colleague from Stockholm and can confirm. He lives in an apartment and doesn't have it so bad, but our mutual boss has a house (and a Tesla...) and is paying like $1500mo.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[DamonL]

If someone needs an excuse to buy one, you should buy it sooner rather than later, because prices might go up. Think of the money you might save. :D

[WobblyPossum]

If someone needs an excuse to buy one, you should buy it sooner rather than later, because prices might go up. Think of the money you might save. :D

Man’s got a point.

[RevolverRob]

If someone needs an excuse to buy one, you should buy it sooner rather than later, because prices might go up. Think of the money you might save. :D

Bereli has them for 949, free shipping, use the code "BereliReview5" for 5% off.

They have grey in stock.

[Ed L]

A company called Bereli is selling the Ultima Patrol for $949 shipped to your FFL dealer:

https://www.bereli.com/beretta-a300-ultima-patrol-12-19-7-round-mag-tube-shotgun/?avad=9441_e2eaf0721

[jandbj]

A company called Bereli is selling the Ultima Patrol for $949 shipped to your FFL dealer:

https://www.bereli.com/beretta-a300-ultima-patrol-12-19-7-round-mag-tube-shotgun/?avad=9441_e2eaf0721

My grey pre-order one came from them. I think I paid $915 shipped back in late January.

[rob_s]

My grey pre-order one came from them. I think I paid $915 shipped back in late January.

Yeah I fucked up not ordering then.

What’s the protocol on the receiving FLL? I see they let you put in your zip and search for dealers. Is that all FFL dealers or is it a list of dealers they’ve dealt with? Are you supposed to call the ffl of choice before ordering just to confirm?

[WobblyPossum]

Yeah I fucked up not ordering then.

What’s the protocol on the receiving FLL? I see they let you put in your zip and search for dealers. Is that all FFL dealers or is it a list of dealers they’ve dealt with? Are you supposed to call the ffl of choice before ordering just to confirm?

It’s generally a lot of FFLs they’re aware of. They might pull from some database. Your FFL may not be there or they may. I call in advance before ordering through an FFL for the first time. After that I order guns and let them know to expect the gun.

Don’t forget to use code BERELIREVIEW5 for 5% off.

[rob_s]

It’s generally a lot of FFLs they’re aware of. They might pull from some database. Your FFL may not be there or they may. I call in advance before ordering through an FFL for the first time. After that I order guns and let them know to expect the gun.

Don’t forget to use code BERELIREVIEW5 for 5% off.

Thanks.

I can’t quite figure out where to enter that code….

Looks like they are already sold out anyway… :(

101826

[WobblyPossum]

Thanks.

I can’t quite figure out where to enter that code….

Looks like they are already sold out anyway… :(

101826

Once you hit check out, there’s a box listing the costs, shipping, taxes, etc. In it is a button for gift certificates or coupons. You enter codes there. Hopefully they restock the gun soon and you can get yours. You can sign up to be notified if they come back in stock.

[jandbj]

Yeah I fucked up not ordering then.

What’s the protocol on the receiving FLL? I see they let you put in your zip and search for dealers. Is that all FFL dealers or is it a list of dealers they’ve dealt with? Are you supposed to call the ffl of choice before ordering just to confirm?

I emailed them my regular guy’s FFL after I got the order confirmation.

[Bigghoss]

500 rounds through the A300 and the wost thing that happened was the mag tube clamp walked forward.


https://youtu.be/BZfk99LZQNc

[Navin Johnson]

A fella on the Youtube was shooting a 1301 next to a Patrol and had a couple dead triggers on the Patrol

At times, from a Google search, the A 300 platform has had trigger issues (posts up to last year)

Also he said side by side he could out run the Patrol (trigger) but not the 1301. Not sure if it would matter in real life if true.

[Bernomad]

A fella on the Youtube was shooting a 1301 next to a Patrol and had a couple dead triggers on the Patrol

At times, from a Google search, the A 300 platform has had trigger issues (posts up to last year)

Also he said side by side he could out run the Patrol (trigger) but not the 1301. Not sure if it would matter in real life if true.

I could also out run my Benelli M2, but can’t make that happen on a 1301. You’re right, there’s no real world application for that kind of shooting for me, really.

[Pnut]

That 500 round test was good, but what Federal load was he shooting? He kept referring to it as a FULL POWER LAW ENFORCEMENT load. Isn’t Federal LE a low recoil round?

[EzGoingKev]

That 500 round test was good, but what Federal load was he shooting? He kept referring to it as a FULL POWER LAW ENFORCEMENT load. Isn’t Federal LE a low recoil round?
I believe there are (3) loads -

LE12700 - (9) pellet 00 buck @ 1325 fps
LE13200 - (9) pellet 00 buck @ 1145 fps
LE13300 - (8) pellet 00 buck @ 1145 fps

My guess is he was shooting the LE12700.

[LHS]

At 1:41 in that video, you can barely make out the Federal buck hulls have "1325 FPS" printed on them, so it's almost certainly LE12700

[Bigghoss]

And his review.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjkiSLF3Gi0

[TCinVA]

TFBTV seems to do pretty good work.

...but every time I see them run a shotgun I get Forrest Whittaker eye because I want to save them from themselves. Like the thumb bite thing...bro, bend the thumb at the last joint and it traps the lifter up against the bolt and prevents that from ever being a thing.

[Lon]

TFBTV seems to do pretty good work.

...but every time I see them run a shotgun I get Forrest Whittaker eye because I want to save them from themselves. Like the thumb bite thing...bro, bend the thumb at the last joint and it traps the lifter up against the bolt and prevents that from ever being a thing.

You’d think Clint Smith covered that during the shotgun class he took with him when he tested the 1301?

[TCinVA]

You’d think Clint Smith covered that during the shotgun class he took with him when he tested the 1301?

I don't know what Clint teaches.

But speaking generally the quality of shotgun training is pretty poor and stuff that helps people not get their butts kicked by the gun tends to not get taught.

[LHS]

TFBTV seems to do pretty good work.

...but every time I see them run a shotgun I get Forrest Whittaker eye because I want to save them from themselves. Like the thumb bite thing...bro, bend the thumb at the last joint and it traps the lifter up against the bolt and prevents that from ever being a thing.

Same. And talking about icing his shoulder, dude, a little push-pull will fix that for you

[perlslacker]

But speaking generally the quality of shotgun training is pretty poor and stuff that helps people not get their butts kicked by the gun tends to not get taught.

I think push-pull is relatively new. I think the classic "get the butt of the gun in the pocket, pull it in tight" recoil management method that I learned when I was shooting skeet as a boy is still taught in many places.

[LHS]

I think push-pull is relatively new. I think the classic "get the butt of the gun in the pocket, pull it in tight" recoil management method that I learned when I was shooting skeet as a boy is still taught in many places.

We've been teaching it for almost 30 years, so it's not exactly new, but it sadly isn't standard in most places.

[TCinVA]

We've been teaching it for almost 30 years, so it's not exactly new, but it sadly isn't standard in most places.

I've run into lots of people who have heard of it.

I've run into a number of people who even say that they use it.

Shortly thereafter they realize that they weren't using it at all, at least not right. And that's when the magic happens.

Tom Givens ran a shotgun instructor development course a couple of weeks ago. The second place performer in the class was one of my clients who has learned manipulations and push/pull. She also learned intelligent setup of her shotgun. That combination of technique and equipment set up allowed her to use an 870 to house a bunch of people running 1301's on timed, scored drills. She scored a 100% on the written test (a testament to her academic prowess) and 100% on the qualification. This despite giving up size and strength to everyone else in the class...and she was using a Magpul SGA stock with no butt pad on it.

Despite that, she didn't leave class with a sore shoulder. All because she knew how to use a combination of her body weight and push/pull to dominate the shotgun instead of letting the shotgun dominate her. And she didn't get her thumb pinched by the lifter either.

The right instruction paired with diligent practice does wonders for one's ability to perform with the street howitzer.

[LHS]

I've run into lots of people who have heard of it.

I've run into a number of people who even say that they use it.

Shortly thereafter they realize that they weren't using it at all, at least not right. And that's when the magic happens.

Tom Givens ran a shotgun instructor development course a couple of weeks ago. The second place performer in the class was one of my clients who has learned manipulations and push/pull. She also learned intelligent setup of her shotgun. That combination of technique and equipment set up allowed her to use an 870 to house a bunch of people running 1301's on timed, scored drills. She scored a 100% on the written test (a testament to her academic prowess) and 100% on the qualification. This despite giving up size and strength to everyone else in the class...and she was using a Magpul SGA stock with no butt pad on it.

Despite that, she didn't leave class with a sore shoulder. All because she knew how to use a combination of her body weight and push/pull to dominate the shotgun instead of letting the shotgun dominate her. And she didn't get her thumb pinched by the lifter either.

The right instruction paired with diligent practice does wonders for one's ability to perform with the street howitzer.

That's been my experience as well. A lot of people who've had outside instruction on it come to our class and say "Wow, I never learned it like this! It works so much better now!"

And that's not a knock on other folks who incorporate it, that's just a fact of Dad being the originator of the technique, and my having grown up immersed in it. We've done it so much that we've figured out subtleties, and seen enough students come through that we've experience with how to impart those little personalized tweaks that can make all the difference.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Learned push/pull from Pat in '08 but that was in the context of reloading a carb, fast forward to 2014 & along came DB & Wayne schooling us in the SG usage context.

[MVS]

I've run into lots of people who have heard of it.

I've run into a number of people who even say that they use it.

Shortly thereafter they realize that they weren't using it at all, at least not right. And that's when the magic happens.

Tom Givens ran a shotgun instructor development course a couple of weeks ago. The second place performer in the class was one of my clients who has learned manipulations and push/pull. She also learned intelligent setup of her shotgun. That combination of technique and equipment set up allowed her to use an 870 to house a bunch of people running 1301's on timed, scored drills. She scored a 100% on the written test (a testament to her academic prowess) and 100% on the qualification. This despite giving up size and strength to everyone else in the class...and she was using a Magpul SGA stock with no butt pad on it.

Despite that, she didn't leave class with a sore shoulder. All because she knew how to use a combination of her body weight and push/pull to dominate the shotgun instead of letting the shotgun dominate her. And she didn't get her thumb pinched by the lifter either.

The right instruction paired with diligent practice does wonders for one's ability to perform with the street howitzer.

I know we are straying OT here, but when he debriefed me on the class Randy Harris told me how impressed he was with her abilities. Assuming this was the Nashville class. He did end up with top gun, but he has been doing this a long time and is literally twice her size.

[SeriousStudent]

I have decided that I'm going to buy one of the tiger stripe models. Because reasons.

Now if I can just find a Rhodesian camo sling to go with it.

[perlslacker]

Now if I can just find a Rhodesian camo sling to go with it.

https://wellsmadecompany.com/collections/slings/products/bolt-sling-brushstroke

[Inkwell 41]

I have decided that I'm going to buy one of the tiger stripe models. Because reasons.

Now if I can just find a Rhodesian camo sling to go with it.

Style points. Kudos!



Waiting on one to show up at my local friendly gun shop.

I could probably swing a 1301, but the A300 would save some money that could be applied to ammo. Not sure that I’d personally gain much more by going with a 1301.

[SeriousStudent]

https://wellsmadecompany.com/collections/slings/products/bolt-sling-brushstroke

Gracias, amigo! :)

[Centerfire]

Does anyone know if the front sight will take standard M4 and 1301T sight posts?

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

Hi folks, can’t believe I’m just finding this forum, I recognize quite a few screen names from people I already hold in high regard.

I JUST bought a 1301 with the awful pistol grip stock. To outfit it with a magpul stock and foreend, it will cost be around $400.

I can return my 1301 and buy an A300 UP, and get $400 back. Would you stick with the 1301 or go the A300 route? I’m a casual shotgun shooter at best.

[TCinVA]

I know we are straying OT here, but when he debriefed me on the class Randy Harris told me how impressed he was with her abilities. Assuming this was the Nashville class. He did end up with top gun, but he has been doing this a long time and is literally twice her size.

It was the Nashville class.

She's an exceptionally good student and diligently worked on her skills with dryfire on her own time. The work payed off. I have a number of female clients who have come to me for a few classes that run a 12 gauge like champs. In a class last year a repeat client who is 5'5" and maybe 130 pounds was next to a 6'6" dude who had to weigh 350 at a minimum. She utterly dominated her 1301 and on more than one occasion the very large man just watched her run her gun and shook his head in disbelief that this small female could run a 12 gauge all day.

Anytime I've actually had LE instructors in class their eyes have been opened just watching what is possible when people are taught the right stuff about shotguns.

[TCinVA]

Hi folks, can’t believe I’m just finding this forum, I recognize quite a few screen names from people I already hold in high regard.

I JUST bought a 1301 with the awful pistol grip stock. To outfit it with a magpul stock and foreend, it will cost be around $400.

I can return my 1301 and buy an A300 UP, and get $400 back. Would you stick with the 1301 or go the A300 route? I’m a casual shotgun shooter at best.

The 1301 is the finest defensive shotgun made today, in my opinion. It runs with practically anything you can feed it, it runs even in terrible conditions where it's been stripped of lubrication, it doesn't require much maintenance and it patterns defensive buckshot better than most other options on the market.

It is a splendid shotgun.

If it were me, I'd keep the 1301 and modify it to my liking.

The Patrol is also an excellent shotgun based on a historically reliable design. As it comes from the box it's set up very well for defensive use. You can literally just put some MLOK rail (I recommend Arisaka) and a light on it and drive on. But it is not quite as adaptable as the 1301 is thanks to the excellent offerings from Aridus.

In your situation I'd recommend replacing the stock on your gun with the Magpul SGA, mounting a light, and drive on.

[Ben_G]

I'd heard about push-pull for 5 or 6 years, and even had it explained to me. It wasn't until I got proper training when it clicked and everything made sense.

[perlslacker]

We've been teaching it for almost 30 years, so it's not exactly new, but it sadly isn't standard in most places.

I didn't believe this at first until I realized that 30 years ago was 1993.

[314159]

Put 20 rounds of slug through the A300 this week. Sadly at a 23.5 yard indoor range (MIchigan and winter). Signs point to this having an accurate slug barrel. That is something I've never had much luck with (except one oddball Stoeger Coach gun of all things).

Really looking forward to trying this outdoors. Performance with both Truball and Brenneke seemed to favor Brenneke but both were fine.

This alone might justify replacing my 1301...

[gato naranja]

That's been my experience as well. A lot of people who've had outside instruction on it come to our class and say "Wow, I never learned it like this! It works so much better now!"

And that's not a knock on other folks who incorporate it, that's just a fact of Dad being the originator of the technique, and my having grown up immersed in it. We've done it so much that we've figured out subtleties, and seen enough students come through that we've experience with how to impart those little personalized tweaks that can make all the difference.

I THINK I have figured it out, but I am an old cat and (relatively) new tricks come hard; if I were 20 years younger I'd actually take a class, but I would be the pain in the arse who slows everything down to the pace of cold molasses. Think Tim Conway's shuffling old guy character, but more clueless.

On a more positive note, at least I am not blading the shotgun and pulling it back into my shoulder pocket with all my might (while delicately holding the forend like it was a Faberge egg).

[UncleGabby]

On a more positive note, at least I am not blading the shotgun and pulling it back into my shoulder pocket with all my might (while delicately holding the forend like it was a Faberge egg).

This made me literally laugh out loud as it describes my father-in-law’s “technique” perfectly.

He is pretty well off, and decided he needed a home defense shotgun that he didn’t spend $125 on at Walmart, so last year I sold him one of my 870 Police Magnums (at a loss for me, but whatever). He only fired 3 low recoil shells through it before calling it a day and saying he needed to replace the stock. I attempted to explain “push-pull” to him, as I understand it based on youtube videos. I had put XS big dot sights on one of my other 870’s and was blowing up milk bottles at 50 yards with slugs, and he even commented on how well I ran my shotgun, but absolutely refused to deviate from his ways.

[idahojess]

500 rounds through the A300 and the wost thing that happened was the mag tube clamp walked forward.


https://youtu.be/BZfk99LZQNc

It seems like he is being punched by his own shooting hand thumb a lot.

I know I've heard at least one other instructor mention it, but isn't running your shooting hand thumb on the top of the stock a better way to keep from getting kicked in the nose by your thumb?

I've been trying to keep my thumb on the top of the stock since I took a local class in 2016 and my nose got smacked enough times to see the wisdom in not having my thumb in front of my nose. Plus, with a top tang safety on an over-under field gun or a Mossberg it seems like a good technique.

Has placing the thumb on top of the stock fallen out of practice with the Magpul stock?

Here is good video on Louis Awerbuck's take on where to place the shooting hand thumb, at 31:50 in (obviously, his stance and technique is different than what I think is taught now). Still a cool video:

https://youtu.be/GdOJRRlVtwI

Edited to remove embed of video. Don't really like the copyright issue -- but it is on youtube.

[LHS]

Yep, running your thumb on top of the stock instead of wrapped around is how we teach it. It's especially important with a shorter stock as the shooter's face is closer to the thumb. I use that technique pretty exclusively (much to my discomfort the first time I ran an Auto5, where it jammed my thumb into the hump back...).


It seems like he is being punched by his own shooting hand thumb a lot.

I know I've heard at least one other instructor mention it, but isn't running your shooting hand thumb on the top of the stock a better way to keep from getting kicked in the nose by your thumb?

I've been trying to keep my thumb on the top of the stock since I took a local class in 2016 and my nose got smacked enough times to see the wisdom in not having my thumb in front of my nose. Plus, with a top tang safety on an over-under field gun or a Mossberg it seems like a good technique.

Has placing the thumb on top of the stock fallen out of practice with the Magpul stock?

Here is good video on Louis Awerbuck's take on where to place the shooting hand thumb, at 31:50 in (obviously, his stance and technique is different than what I think is taught now). Still a cool video:

https://youtu.be/GdOJRRlVtwI

Edited to remove embed of video. Don't really like the copyright issue -- but it is on youtube.

[RevolverRob]

When I was learning to run lever guns I quickly learned there is zero need to do anything with strong hand thumb except lay it alongside the stock wrist/receiver). Otherwise it will just slow you down (or worse get jammed when you slam the lever back up). You can run a bolt action, a pump, a semi, and any traditionally stocked long gun the exact same way. It's not as though your strong hand thumb is doing anything important, except flicking the safety on a Mossberg.

I find the support hand thumb placement to be more important.

[JAD]

I hadn’t run a shotgun in like 10 years but recently picked up an 870 and took it to the range. I fired the first round and frowned a little; I couldn’t figure out why it seemed to be recoiling so much with birdshot. Then I realized that I’d have to be conscious of push pull. I worked that back out over the rest of the tube. By the time I’d reloaded, it was instinctive again.

It is the only ‘one simple trick’ thing I’ve learned in hundreds of hours of training.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

The 1301 is the finest defensive shotgun made today, in my opinion. It runs with practically anything you can feed it, it runs even in terrible conditions where it's been stripped of lubrication, it doesn't require much maintenance and it patterns defensive buckshot better than most other options on the market.

It is a splendid shotgun.

If it were me, I'd keep the 1301 and modify it to my liking.

The Patrol is also an excellent shotgun based on a historically reliable design. As it comes from the box it's set up very well for defensive use. You can literally just put some MLOK rail (I recommend Arisaka) and a light on it and drive on. But it is not quite as adaptable as the 1301 is thanks to the excellent offerings from Aridus.

In your situation I'd recommend replacing the stock on your gun with the Magpul SGA, mounting a light, and drive on.

Based on your advice, I bought a GG&G Magpul Stock, Aridus Crom, and Aridus QDC. Took the 1301 out today and patterned it with quite a few loads.

The A300 was outfitted quite well, but clearly felt tougher than the polished 1301.

[GJM]

Yep, running your thumb on top of the stock instead of wrapped around is how we teach it. It's especially important with a shorter stock as the shooter's face is closer to the thumb. I use that technique pretty exclusively (much to my discomfort the first time I ran an Auto5, where it jammed my thumb into the hump back...).

Works well with a bolt gun -- avoids thumb to nose and faster to run the bolt.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

Based on your advice, I bought a GG&G Magpul Stock, Aridus Crom, and Aridus QDC. Took the 1301 out today and patterned it with quite a few loads.

The A300 was outfitted quite well, but clearly felt tougher than the polished 1301.
By “tougher” I mean “rougher”. The A300UP is a rougher feeling gun in overall finish than the 1301.

[EzGoingKev]

It’s also e to rely possible that the beretta site is wrong. We keep hearing that the 1301 is going to have price increases.
Looking on Beretta's site the MSRP is now listed at $1720 for the field stock model.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Looking on Beretta's site the MSRP is now listed at $1720 for the field stock model.

Within the last month or so, I checked a local store in the SF Bay Area. They wanted over $1800 for a 1301.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

Within the last month or so, I checked a local store in the SF Bay Area. They wanted over $1800 for a 1301.

I purchased a 1301 from scheels this month for 1700, but they price matched Berelis.com at 1400 out the door.

[Dman514]

500 rounds through the A300 and the wost thing that happened was the mag tube clamp walked forward.


https://youtu.be/BZfk99LZQNc


That video did confirm that rear sling mount is in a terrible place. At one point he had the gun just hanging by the sling and the gun had completely rolled over with the trigger group pointing up. If you try carrying it like you would an AR15 you would have to reach under the gun to grab it and roll it back upright as you bring it up. Beretta should have placed a sling mount on either side of the stock and not on the bottom. I think that will be a deal breaker for anyone who needs to carry it slung.

[Dorsai]

That video did confirm that rear sling mount is in a terrible place. At one point he had the gun just hanging by the sling and the gun had completely rolled over with the trigger group pointing up. If you try carrying it like you would an AR15 you would have to reach under the gun to grab it and roll it back upright as you bring it up. Beretta should have placed a sling mount on either side of the stock and not on the bottom. I think that will be a deal breaker for anyone who needs to carry it slung.

I've modified several guns to add QD sockets to hollow polymer stocks. It really isn't that hard and I've got a couple more to do in the next month. I like this one the best.

https://grovtec.com/products/hollow-stock-push-button-base-gthm198-coming-soon?_pos=2&_sid=dafa0d97e&_ss=r

Remove the buttplate, decide where you want to put it, make sure you don't have a stock bolt in the way. Measure twice, drill once. On this particular one, as I recall they say use a 1/2" drill. The cup is little larger in diameter so I've used a round file to chamfer the edge and open the hole up just a little. A hex wrench fits a hole in the middle and I bear down and thread it into the plastic. That takes some back and forth, but I think it is more secure than just enlarging the hole. "Screw" it down using the hex wrench, put a little locktite on the threads and then install the nut on the inside. Easy-peasy. I've got a synthetic Ruger GSR stock arriving tomorrow and I plan to add one to each side for flexibility, though I could get buy with just one. I'm going to install a different cup in the forend. I've also got a Fight-Lite that uses a Remington 1100 stock and I'm doing the same for it.

[Bigghoss]

That video did confirm that rear sling mount is in a terrible place. At one point he had the gun just hanging by the sling and the gun had completely rolled over with the trigger group pointing up. If you try carrying it like you would an AR15 you would have to reach under the gun to grab it and roll it back upright as you bring it up. Beretta should have placed a sling mount on either side of the stock and not on the bottom. I think that will be a deal breaker for anyone who needs to carry it slung.

I agree but I don't see it as that big of a deal because you can just buy a QD cup and drill a hole in the stock.

[314159]

Got a chance to shoot a few Brenneke slugs at 50 yards. A three shot group with two overlapping, about 2.5 inches. I need to do more and compare with my 1301 but this is shaping up to be a competent slug gun. Functioned with an 8 pellet low recoil load but limited rounds fired again. So far, this is totally a good lower dollar choice.

[Dorsai]

I've modified several guns to add QD sockets to hollow polymer stocks. It really isn't that hard and I've got a couple more to do in the next month. I like this one the best.

https://grovtec.com/products/hollow-stock-push-button-base-gthm198-coming-soon?_pos=2&_sid=dafa0d97e&_ss=r

Remove the buttplate, decide where you want to put it, make sure you don't have a stock bolt in the way. Measure twice, drill once. On this particular one, as I recall they say use a 1/2" drill. The cup is little larger in diameter so I've used a round file to chamfer the edge and open the hole up just a little. A hex wrench fits a hole in the middle and I bear down and thread it into the plastic. That takes some back and forth, but I think it is more secure than just enlarging the hole. "Screw" it down using the hex wrench, put a little locktite on the threads and then install the nut on the inside. Easy-peasy. I've got a synthetic Ruger GSR stock arriving tomorrow and I plan to add one to each side for flexibility, though I could get buy with just one. I'm going to install a different cup in the forend. I've also got a Fight-Lite that uses a Remington 1100 stock and I'm doing the same for it.

102841

102842

[mikey357]

It seems like he is being punched by his own shooting hand thumb a lot.

I know I've heard at least one other instructor mention it, but isn't running your shooting hand thumb on the top of the stock a better way to keep from getting kicked in the nose by your thumb?

I've been trying to keep my thumb on the top of the stock since I took a local class in 2016 and my nose got smacked enough times to see the wisdom in not having my thumb in front of my nose. Plus, with a top tang safety on an over-under field gun or a Mossberg it seems like a good technique.

Has placing the thumb on top of the stock fallen out of practice with the Magpul stock?

Here is good video on Louis Awerbuck's take on where to place the shooting hand thumb, at 31:50 in (obviously, his stance and technique is different than what I think is taught now). Still a cool video:

https://youtu.be/GdOJRRlVtwI

Edited to remove embed of video. Don't really like the copyright issue -- but it is on youtube.

If your Thumb is "Popping" you in the Face, it's likely the Stock is too short, the Comb too low or both...

[LHS]

If your Thumb is "Popping" you in the Face, it's likely the Stock is too short, the Comb too low or both...

Most stocks that are properly short, and low enough to use typical shotgun irons or cowitnessed dots, will result in popping yourself in the cheek/nose with your thumb if you wrap it around the grip. Given there's little if any need to do so to control the weapon, I generally advise not wrapping the thumb for just that reason.

[mikey357]

Most stocks that are properly short, and low enough to use typical shotgun irons or cowitnessed dots, will result in popping yourself in the cheek/nose with your thumb if you wrap it around the grip. Given there's little if any need to do so to control the weapon, I generally advise not wrapping the thumb for just that reason.

...and here I thought the British put to paper everything we needed to know about Shotgun Fit over 100 years ago...FWIW, their dictum of having the forward-most portion of your cheek 1 to 1 & 1/2 inches BEHIND the rearmost portion of the heel of your hand that's likely to touch your cheek was good advice 150 years ago, is good advice today and will be good advice in another 150 years--UNLESS, of course, you LIKE getting "Popped" in the Cheek & want to develop a pretty good-sized FLINCH--Then, by all means, "Knock" yourself out!

[LHS]

...and here I thought the British put to paper everything we needed to know about Shotgun Fit over 100 years ago...FWIW, their dictum of having the forward-most portion of your cheek 1 to 1 & 1/2 inches BEHIND the rearmost portion of the heel of your hand that's likely to touch your cheek was good advice 150 years ago, is good advice today and will be good advice in another 150 years--UNLESS, of course, you LIKE getting "Popped" in the Cheek & want to develop a pretty good-sized FLINCH--Then, by all means, "Knock" yourself out!

I don't get popped at all, because I simply move my thumb out of the way. That simple little adjustment lets me have a stock short enough to square up to the target and reach the forend effectively, keep my posture squared to deal with any recoil that gets past my push-pull, and otherwise run a fighting shotgun how it ought to be run. This gun isn't meant for shooting birds, so I'll leave the ancient British to their sport where they belong.

[perlslacker]

...and here I thought the British put to paper everything we needed to know about Shotgun Fit over 100 years ago...FWIW, their dictum of having the forward-most portion of your cheek 1 to 1 & 1/2 inches BEHIND the rearmost portion of the heel of your hand that's likely to touch your cheek was good advice 150 years ago, is good advice today and will be good advice in another 150 years--UNLESS, of course, you LIKE getting "Popped" in the Cheek & want to develop a pretty good-sized FLINCH--Then, by all means, "Knock" yourself out!

I grew up shooting all the various clay sports at various levels of competition and while this is all true in that context, I'm learning that fighting shotguns are a very different beast.

Like, if I had to give any advice to people with my background getting into defensive shotguns, it would be "this isn't sporting clays, accept that a lot of your experience will be wrong in this context."

[Austin Millbarge]

Are they any other front sights available for the A300 patrol? I love the gun, hate fiber optic sights.

[mikey357]

I grew up shooting all the various clay sports at various levels of competition and while this is all true in that context, I'm learning that fighting shotguns are a very different beast.

Like, if I had to give any advice to people with my background getting into defensive shotguns, it would be "this isn't sporting clays, accept that a lot of your experience will be wrong in this context."

I'd agree with you IF we were all wearing Body Armor when we shot our Social Shotties, but other than that one situation, there is no reason that a conventional Shotgunning Stance/Mount/Shotgun Fit won't work with a Riot/Tactical/Social Shotgun as well as it does with Grandpa's Dove Gun...Shotgunning is NOT "Rocket Science", despite the protestations of those who would try to "Re-Invent the Wheel", and then sell the re-invented Wheel to the rest of us...

[LHS]

I'd agree with you IF we were all wearing Body Armor when we shot our Social Shotties, but other than that one situation, there is no reason that a conventional Shotgunning Stance/Mount/Shotgun Fit won't work with a Riot/Tactical/Social Shotgun as well as it does with Grandpa's Dove Gun...Shotgunning is NOT "Rocket Science", despite the protestations of those who would try to "Re-Invent the Wheel", and then sell the re-invented Wheel to the rest of us...

It's always good when someone skylines themselves onto the ol' ignore list.

[Cory]

I'd agree with you IF we were all wearing Body Armor when we shot our Social Shotties, but other than that one situation, there is no reason that a conventional Shotgunning Stance/Mount/Shotgun Fit won't work with a Riot/Tactical/Social Shotgun as well as it does with Grandpa's Dove Gun...Shotgunning is NOT "Rocket Science", despite the protestations of those who would try to "Re-Invent the Wheel", and then sell the re-invented Wheel to the rest of us...

That's more than a bit counter to those who teach shooting "social" shotguns for a living have to say. I see your a retired air traffic controller. Thats pretty cool. Some folks like LHS have a profession of teaching shotguns. It is their job, and were fortunate to learn from them here.

I'll agree that it isn't rocket science, but I don't think that it's the same as shooting clays either. There are certainly things other than body armor that make squaring up to the target advantagous. A bladed stance might work... but that doesn't mean it will work best, or that it will be optimal. Of LHS, TCinVA, and a handful of professional instructors have all come to the same conclusion then it seems pretty obvious to me that they're on to something.

Do you shoot 3 gun, or any competition that attempts to mimic "social" shooting with a shotgun? How are your times, hits, experiences with it? If your doing really well at that stuff I'm interested in reading about your process and practice.

[L-2]

Even after a couple of decades with the shotgun (retired LE work), I'll occasionally take a shot, forgetting to have my cheek down on the stock. The slap to the face is a nice, immediate reminder of what I did wrong.

On a related note, I do find the short Hogue stock to be just a bit short for me as I do get the thumb/hand poking into my face. I think that short Hogue stock is ~12.5". I think I'm more comfortable with a 13.0-13.5" stock length whether with or without body armor.

I've shot with longer stocks, but it wouldn't be my preference (I'm 5'9", btw), as most of the pool-shotguns were likely 14.0-14.5" stocked; Mossberg 590A1 with those older-school Speedfeed stocks which carried 4 extra rounds.

[WobblyPossum]

I'd agree with you IF we were all wearing Body Armor when we shot our Social Shotties, but other than that one situation, there is no reason that a conventional Shotgunning Stance/Mount/Shotgun Fit won't work with a Riot/Tactical/Social Shotgun as well as it does with Grandpa's Dove Gun...Shotgunning is NOT "Rocket Science", despite the protestations of those who would try to "Re-Invent the Wheel", and then sell the re-invented Wheel to the rest of us...

Body armor isn’t the only reason pretty much all defensive firearms use is taught and practiced from a squared up stance. Squaring up to the target also helps mitigate recoil and allow for faster follow up shots. The recoil from buckshot and slugs isn’t like the recoil from trap and skeet loads. Starting from a squared up stance also facilitates moving in any direction. The bladed stance required for most people to use 14”+ LOP stocks isn’t conducive to easy movement in every direction. Also a factor worth considering for defensive use that doesn’t matter when shooting clay sports. A third reason is that even without body armor I’d prefer to take a bullet straight on from a squared up stance. It’ll probably only penetrate one organ that way. Taking a shot into your side because you’re bladed could result in a single bullet penetrating both lungs and your heart. Again, not something you have to worry about when shooting clays.

[ChacaoPD1994]

Hi,

New here in the forum.

My wife and I ordered 2 A300 UP a month ago, because everywhere was out of stock or on back order, it took a long time to receive them, finally today we got them but unfortunately we got the wrong model and because we realized it was the wrong ones after getting them out of the FFL the store is not accepting returns except if we pay 25% restock fee.
We order the regular A300 UP and we got the Law Enforcement model with a fixed choke so now I will have to send it to a gunsmith in order to work on the barrels so we can screw different Chokes and can be used on tactical training, that is a cheaper solution than payment a restock fee.

[Jason M]

Hi,

New here in the forum.

My wife and I ordered 2 A300 UP a month ago, because everywhere was out of stock or on back order, it took a long time to receive them, finally today we got them but unfortunately we got the wrong model and because we realized it was the wrong ones after getting them out of the FFL the store is not accepting returns except if we pay 25% restock fee.
We order the regular A300 UP and we got the Law Enforcement model with a fixed choke so now I will have to send it to a gunsmith in order to work on the barrels so we can screw different Chokes and can be used on tactical training, that is a cheaper solution than payment a restock fee.

Welcome to the forum! There is a ton of good info from a ton of good people.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to send your new gun to be fitted for chokes. The barrel is probably just right as it is. While I don't have a A300UP, I have two 1301s. Both are the fixed choke LE SKUs. They pattern very well with easily obtained Federal FC loads (even 9 pellet) and Hornady loads. Training with field loads doesn't require a tight pattern. Quality SG training will have lots of dry manipulations with dummies to learn how to run the beast, lots of field shell usage for manipulations with boom to learn recoil mitigation, and a much smaller number of premium buck and slug for patterning/check of function/zeroing.. All SGs pattern differently. That final part is actually one of the lower round count tasks you will do. I suspect your stock barrel will do just fine. Perhaps wait and see before you spend money on mods.

[TCinVA]

I'd agree with you IF we were all wearing Body Armor when we shot our Social Shotties, but other than that one situation, there is no reason that a conventional Shotgunning Stance/Mount/Shotgun Fit won't work with a Riot/Tactical/Social Shotgun as well as it does with Grandpa's Dove Gun...

That is the theory that has underpinned institutional training on shotguns for the last 100 years.

...the very same bad training that is responsible for the shotgun practically disappearing from LE use in that time frame.

If you cannot grasp that firing a completely different munition at a completely different typical distance under completely different circumstances with completely different stakes might require a different approach then there's no help for you.

It's not "rocket science", no. But your brain has to be at least awake enough to recognize that wing shooting dove has zero overlap with trying to stop a violent felon bent on killing you.

There's a reason why nobody uses High Power rifle stances in CQB and why we don't teach primarily single handed static bullseye pistol stances for self defense. This is no different.

[TCinVA]

Even after a couple of decades with the shotgun (retired LE work), I'll occasionally take a shot, forgetting to have my cheek down on the stock. The slap to the face is a nice, immediate reminder of what I did wrong.

On a related note, I do find the short Hogue stock to be just a bit short for me as I do get the thumb/hand poking into my face. I think that short Hogue stock is ~12.5". I think I'm more comfortable with a 13.0-13.5" stock length whether with or without body armor.


For me the Hogue is also a bit short...it's particularly bad when combined with a Wilson ghost ring in the rear:

103275

Tam Keel takes great photos. This was taken during the Defensive Shotgun Essentials block that Ashton and I taught at the Tactical Conference. I grabbed a student's gun for demo. (I rather like using client guns for demos at times because it shows there's no magic in my gun) With the Hogue stock on this SBS and the Wilson rear sight my thumb would have paid the price had I run it high along the top of the receiver, so I went against typical practice and crossed my thumb.

I didn't get smacked because I was demonstrating push/pull...and, well, when you execute that right the gun doesn't have a chance to shove the base of your thumb into your cheekbone.

Funny thing is I didn't even realize I changed what I normally did on the gun until I saw this photo days later.

The Hogues make me feel a little "cramped", but that's because I'm used to shooting with a more bladed rather than square stance. They're fucking beautiful when you square up more and run the gun more towards your centerline.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

Hi,

New here in the forum.

My wife and I ordered 2 A300 UP a month ago, because everywhere was out of stock or on back order, it took a long time to receive them, finally today we got them but unfortunately we got the wrong model and because we realized it was the wrong ones after getting them out of the FFL the store is not accepting returns except if we pay 25% restock fee.
We order the regular A300 UP and we got the Law Enforcement model with a fixed choke so now I will have to send it to a gunsmith in order to work on the barrels so we can screw different Chokes and can be used on tactical training, that is a cheaper solution than payment a restock fee.

I have a 1301 without fixed choke. I am a newbie shotgunner so I don't really know why having one or not is important. For a HD/CQB type shotgun, why is it so important?

[TCinVA]

Hi,

New here in the forum.

My wife and I ordered 2 A300 UP a month ago, because everywhere was out of stock or on back order, it took a long time to receive them, finally today we got them but unfortunately we got the wrong model and because we realized it was the wrong ones after getting them out of the FFL the store is not accepting returns except if we pay 25% restock fee.
We order the regular A300 UP and we got the Law Enforcement model with a fixed choke so now I will have to send it to a gunsmith in order to work on the barrels so we can screw different Chokes and can be used on tactical training, that is a cheaper solution than payment a restock fee.

So my 2 cents:

I honestly wouldn't worry about having the barrels cut for screw-in chokes. While it is possible that the right choke would improve the performance of some types of buckshot in your shotguns, odds are the improvements will be fairly minor and only with a very limited number of buckshot loads. Tightening the choke can reduce the size of some buckshot patterns, but it can just as easily cause more pellet-to-pellet contact and spread patterns out. The prototype I shot had a cylinder bore choke in it and performed just fine with multiple buckshot loads.

My two 1301T shotguns both have cylinder bores. All of my working shotguns I use for class and loaners are fixed choke with either cylinder or improved cylinder bores.

Personally I would leave them be. If you have a gunsmith who is wiling to do the work and does good quality work and you want to give them some business by all means...but I don't think you need to make that modification.

[Caballoflaco]

...and here I thought the British put to paper everything we needed to know about Shotgun Fit over 100 years ago...FWIW, their dictum of having the forward-most portion of your cheek 1 to 1 & 1/2 inches BEHIND the rearmost portion of the heel of your hand that's likely to touch your cheek was good advice 150 years ago, is good advice today and will be good advice in another 150 years--UNLESS, of course, you LIKE getting "Popped" in the Cheek & want to develop a pretty good-sized FLINCH--Then, by all means, "Knock" yourself out!

In addition to everything else stated on this:

100 years ago the brits were shooting guns that were proofed for working loads between 8,900psi and 9,600psi at the upper end which is considerably lighter than the 11,500psi loads standard in America.

And even today if you watch many modern English shotgunning channels on YouTube they always bitch about how American loads recoil more than the shells the shoot in Britain And are uncomfortable to shoot.

[TCinVA]

I have a 1301 without fixed choke. I am a newbie shotgunner so I don't really know why having one or not is important. For a HD/CQB type shotgun, why is it so important?

Screw-in chokes allow you to tune the performance of your shotgun when firing actual shot loads (as in bird shot) so you can reliably bring down game. If you are shooting dove at 50 yards you're going to want a tighter choke to keep your pattern at that distance dense enough to hit the dove.

Conversely, if you are shooting a fast-flying clay pigeon at 15 yards that tight dove-killing pattern at 50 means you gave a much lower margin of error in hitting the clay.

So being able to change your choke is pretty useful if you are doing any sort of wing shooting with the shotgun.

Where a tighter choke helps tighten up the pattern of birdshot, it can have exactly the opposite effect on buckshot. One of the things that causes buckshot to spread is the contact that happens between pellets. This is why premium quality loads will have some sort of cushioning between pellets in the shell so they don't make as much impact into one another and flat spot. They will also use harder lead alloys and copper plating to make the pellet harder and resist deformation because it helps the pellet fly more true to point of aim.

Think of what would happen to a golf ball if you put it to a sander, flattened one edge out, and then whacked the ball with a driver. It would be comically inaccurate no matter how skilled the golfer who hit it was. Same sort of thing applies to pellets.

When they are fired, they make some level of contact. If they suddenly hit a severe constriction in the barrel then they're slammed into one another and the flat spots get larger and a sort of "billiard ball" effect is added to the whole affair which can make the resulting pattern a real shitshow.

Cylinder bore has typically been the standard for defensive use for this reason and to allow the use of slugs.

Now you can play with various combinations of buckshot loadings and chokes and you will likely find that some loads will actually perform better through a given barrel with an improved cylinder or modified choke. If you want to take that time and effort to try and find those combinations, rock on.

If you use ammunition with a flight control style wadding, tighter chokes can actually strip the wadding off the shot column sooner, giving you a less desirable pattern.

I wouldn't mind having a 1301T or 300UP with screw-in chokes, but primarily because I might want to take that gun and shoot the occasional bird or clay with it and the ability to put in a choke that enhances performance when wingshooting would be nice for that. But for defensive use I'm fine with a plain cylinder bore.

[Lowspeed_highdrag]

Screw-in chokes allow you to tune the performance of your shotgun when firing actual shot loads (as in bird shot) so you can reliably bring down game. If you are shooting dove at 50 yards you're going to want a tighter choke to keep your pattern at that distance dense enough to hit the dove.

Conversely, if you are shooting a fast-flying clay pigeon at 15 yards that tight dove-killing pattern at 50 means you gave a much lower margin of error in hitting the clay.

So being able to change your choke is pretty useful if you are doing any sort of wing shooting with the shotgun.

Where a tighter choke helps tighten up the pattern of birdshot, it can have exactly the opposite effect on buckshot. One of the things that causes buckshot to spread is the contact that happens between pellets. This is why premium quality loads will have some sort of cushioning between pellets in the shell so they don't make as much impact into one another and flat spot. They will also use harder lead alloys and copper plating to make the pellet harder and resist deformation because it helps the pellet fly more true to point of aim.

Think of what would happen to a golf ball if you put it to a sander, flattened one edge out, and then whacked the ball with a driver. It would be comically inaccurate no matter how skilled the golfer who hit it was. Same sort of thing applies to pellets.

When they are fired, they make some level of contact. If they suddenly hit a severe constriction in the barrel then they're slammed into one another and the flat spots get larger and a sort of "billiard ball" effect is added to the whole affair which can make the resulting pattern a real shitshow.

Cylinder bore has typically been the standard for defensive use for this reason and to allow the use of slugs.

Now you can play with various combinations of buckshot loadings and chokes and you will likely find that some loads will actually perform better through a given barrel with an improved cylinder or modified choke. If you want to take that time and effort to try and find those combinations, rock on.

If you use ammunition with a flight control style wadding, tighter chokes can actually strip the wadding off the shot column sooner, giving you a less desirable pattern.

I wouldn't mind having a 1301T or 300UP with screw-in chokes, but primarily because I might want to take that gun and shoot the occasional bird or clay with it and the ability to put in a choke that enhances performance when wingshooting would be nice for that. But for defensive use I'm fine with a plain cylinder bore.

Thank you! Thats an incredibly informative post. Were you Templar on M4C by chance?

[radiogeek]

I just so happened to be traveling in CA, visiting the in-laws, when I stumbled into a gun shop and found one of these A300 UP on the shelf, in-stock.

Naturally I bought it while the wife stood by and wondered why I always have to waste time on vacations going to gun shops.

It’s being shipped back to Texas to wait at my dealer until I’m done with my vacation. This is the first one I’ve seen in-stock.

It seems the distributors cupboards are bare when it comes to having my dealer back home order one for me, so instant gratification issues aside, I figured I should take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself.

[Redhat]

I haven't seen one of these in the wild yet but does anyone have any updates from those that have already purchased one?

[perlslacker]

does anyone have any updates from those that have already purchased one?

I'm only 1 range trip, with a box of birdshot and some buckshot patterning, into owning mine but here are some (minor) issues I've noticed:

1. The rear QD socket wouldn't hold a Grovtec swivel at first. I found that the shoulder of the swivel was hitting the stock so it wouldn't seat all the way. I backed the socket out a bit with an allen wrench and that fixed it.
2. The rear sight isn't adjustable, so plan on replacing it if you want to dial POI in exactly. For me, it shot high-right but still within a -0 zone at 15 yards with LE133 and a cylinder choke.
3. On the subject of the rear sight, the listed torque spec is 4.5 in/lb. That's outside the range of the Wheeler FAT Wrench that most people have, so you might have to buy a different torque driver if you want to install a new rear sight.
4. It only comes with one IC choke tube, so you'll have to buy some more if you want to throw a tighter pattern w/ birdshot or something.

Otherwise I don't have any complaints. Some people don't like the position of the rear QD socket but it worked OK for me with a VTAC sling.

[LHS]

I'd prefer it had a LEM trigger

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

You jest, but I would legit love to have a DA/SA trigger with decocker on a shotgun.

[Redhat]

I'm only 1 range trip, with a box of birdshot and some buckshot patterning, into owning mine but here are some (minor) issues I've noticed:

1. The rear QD socket wouldn't hold a Grovtec swivel at first. I found that the shoulder of the swivel was hitting the stock so it wouldn't seat all the way. I backed the socket out a bit with an allen wrench and that fixed it.
2. The rear sight isn't adjustable, so plan on replacing it if you want to dial POI in exactly. For me, it shot high-right but still within a -0 zone at 15 yards with LE133 and a cylinder choke.
3. On the subject of the rear sight, the listed torque spec is 4.5 in/lb. That's outside the range of the Wheeler FAT Wrench that most people have, so you might have to buy a different torque driver if you want to install a new rear sight.
4. It only comes with one IC choke tube, so you'll have to buy some more if you want to throw a tighter pattern w/ birdshot or something.

Otherwise I don't have any complaints. Some people don't like the position of the rear QD socket but it worked OK for me with a VTAC sling.

Non adjustable rear sight would be an issue for me...hopefully not hard to swap out.

Thanks

[perlslacker]

Non adjustable rear sight would be an issue for me...hopefully not hard to swap out.

Thanks

It’s not hard if you know how to use a screwdriver

[Redhat]

It’s not hard if you know how to use a screwdriver

Did you replace yours?

[Centerfire]

There's probably a market for all of those 1301 sights that are taken off for CROM's. Fusion has replacement apertures if you don't like the factory rear ghost ring on the 1301 sight.

[perlslacker]

Did you replace yours?

Yup! With a 1301 aperture.

I've got other shotguns with dots. Gonna try ghost rings for a bit.

[LHS]

Yup! With a 1301 aperture.

I've got other shotguns with dots. Gonna try ghost rings for a bit.

That's my plan as well.

[Redhat]

How would you guys rate the A300UP against the new Mossberg 940 Pro Tactical as it pertains to build quality and features?

[LHS]

How would you guys rate the A300UP against the new Mossberg 940 Pro Tactical as it pertains to build quality and features?

I've yet to see any 940s come through a class, so I can't comment.

[RevolverRob]

How would you guys rate the A300UP against the new Mossberg 940 Pro Tactical as it pertains to build quality and features?

Well, the 940 thread points to several issues. Including one where Mossberg had to replace the barrel entirely.

So far, the Yooper doesn't seem to have to have a new barrel before it runs.

So...I'd probably rate the Beretta above Mossberg.

But then again, I wouldn't buy a new Mossberg anyways.

[Centerfire]

Well, the 940 thread points to several issues. Including one where Mossberg had to replace the barrel entirely.

So far, the Yooper doesn't seem to have to have a new barrel before it runs.

So...I'd probably rate the Beretta above Mossberg.

But then again, I wouldn't buy a new Mossberg anyways.

The Beretta is probably higher quality, Mossberg actually has a living person to handle warranty. Perhaps you'll never need Beretta's warranty but Beretta doesn't have a good reputation for positive warranty resolution.

[Redhat]

The one report I've found (here) about a barrel problem seems to have been addressed promptly by Mossberg.

I'm still searching the internet for more reports though.

[ChacaoPD1994]

Welcome to the forum! There is a ton of good info from a ton of good people.

I wouldn't be in a hurry to send your new gun to be fitted for chokes. The barrel is probably just right as it is. While I don't have a A300UP, I have two 1301s. Both are the fixed choke LE SKUs. They pattern very well with easily obtained Federal FC loads (even 9 pellet) and Hornady loads. Training with field loads doesn't require a tight pattern. Quality SG training will have lots of dry manipulations with dummies to learn how to run the beast, lots of field shell usage for manipulations with boom to learn recoil mitigation, and a much smaller number of premium buck and slug for patterning/check of function/zeroing.. All SGs pattern differently. That final part is actually one of the lower round count tasks you will do. I suspect your stock barrel will do just fine. Perhaps wait and see before you spend money on mods.


Thank you for the suggestion, we will do that and maybe in the future I'll get an interchangeable chokes barrel if it worth it.

[ChacaoPD1994]

I have a 1301 without fixed choke. I am a newbie shotgunner so I don't really know why having one or not is important. For a HD/CQB type shotgun, why is it so important?


Depending on the distance of the targets and the loads you use it will matter, at least for us because we will be shooting on tactical courses at distances between 5 to 50 yards.

[ChacaoPD1994]

So my 2 cents:

I honestly wouldn't worry about having the barrels cut for screw-in chokes. While it is possible that the right choke would improve the performance of some types of buckshot in your shotguns, odds are the improvements will be fairly minor and only with a very limited number of buckshot loads. Tightening the choke can reduce the size of some buckshot patterns, but it can just as easily cause more pellet-to-pellet contact and spread patterns out. The prototype I shot had a cylinder bore choke in it and performed just fine with multiple buckshot loads.

My two 1301T shotguns both have cylinder bores. All of my working shotguns I use for class and loaners are fixed choke with either cylinder or improved cylinder bores.

Personally I would leave them be. If you have a gunsmith who is wiling to do the work and does good quality work and you want to give them some business by all means...but I don't think you need to make that modification.


Thank you for the suggestion, we will do that and maybe in the future I'll get an interchangeable chokes barrel if it worth it and can be available from Beretta.

[perlslacker]

update on the 1301 rear: I had to screw the elevation screw down all the way to the end of its adjustment, but it's now zeroed at 25y with Fiocchi low-recoil slugs and LE133.

[Redhat]

update on the 1301 rear: I had to screw the elevation screw down all the way to the end of its adjustment, but it's now zeroed at 25y with Fiocchi low-recoil slugs and LE133.

How did that affect your 5, 10 yard POI? I noticed with my Supernova (factory ghost ring set up), it was on at 5 yds but then started to hit high at 10.

[perlslacker]

How did that affect your 5, 10 yard POI? I noticed with my Supernova (factory ghost ring set up), it was on at 5 yds but then started to hit high at 10.

It was dead on with buck at 10y. I didn't try at 7, though IME with my CROM'd shotgun I'd expect there to be a bit less than an inch of height over bore at 7y.

[idahojess]

I do have both. I'm not an expert, but there are a few observable differences. The Mossberg (the one that had the barrel replaced) has a shorter length of pull with no spacers. I'd say 12.5.

The Beretta has a slightly longer longer length of pull with about 13 inches at the shortest. I can tell the difference. It has a slightly shorter receiver, so the reach to the forearm is similar.

Weight of the Mossberg is biased toward the muzzle, likely because of the flared muzzle, and maybe an overall thicker contour. Weight on my scale is 7.25 pounds.


The Beretta feels lighter, with a more neutral balance. The Beretta is actually a bit longer overall. Weight on my scale is 6.83 pounds.

Mossberg on the right.

103602


The Beretta is easier to remove the barrel than the Mossberg, because the magazine spring is enclosed, and requires a separate cap removal* (*I think -- it does not appear to be covered in the manual) to access the magazine tube, spring and follower.

The Mossberg magazine spring will pop out when you remove the barrel, similar to a 590. It also has a lockring/extension affair that seems to work fine, but requires a little more of a deliberate assembly. That said, the magazine follower does seem quality, and the tube is right there to clean.

It does seem to me like the Beretta is very available online, at varying prices, while the Mossberg seems scarcer. Maybe the Mossberg is more available in stores.

I'll try to burn more ammo/money through them. There are some manual of arms differences such as safety location, carrier stop push button (on the Beretta) which I think would be user preference if everything else is equal.

[Redhat]

I do have both. I'm not an expert, but there are a few observable differences. The Mossberg (the one that had the barrel replaced) has a shorter length of pull with no spacers. I'd say 12.5.

The Beretta has a slightly longer longer length of pull with about 13 inches at the shortest. I can tell the difference. It has a slightly shorter receiver, so the reach to the forearm is similar.

Weight of the Mossberg is biased toward the muzzle, likely because of the flared muzzle, and maybe an overall thicker contour. Weight on my scale is 7.25 pounds.


The Beretta feels lighter, with a more neutral balance. The Beretta is actually a bit longer overall. Weight on my scale is 6.83 pounds.

Mossberg on the right.

103602


Must be nice to have both! So do you have a preference yet?

Thanks for the info.

The Beretta is easier to remove the barrel than the Mossberg, because the magazine spring is enclosed, and requires a separate cap removal* (*I think -- it does not appear to be covered in the manual) to access the magazine tube, spring and follower.

The Mossberg magazine spring will pop out when you remove the barrel, similar to a 590. It also has a lockring/extension affair that seems to work fine, but requires a little more of a deliberate assembly. That said, the magazine follower does seem quality, and the tube is right there to clean.

It does seem to me like the Beretta is very available online, at varying prices, while the Mossberg seems scarcer. Maybe the Mossberg is more available in stores.

I'll try to burn more ammo/money through them. There are some manual of arms differences such as safety location, carrier stop push button (on the Beretta) which I think would be user preference if everything else is equal.