Why technical shooting classes?

[GJM]

I used to take a lot of technical shooting classes. I still think they are very valuable for new shooters.

Lately, I rarely take a technical shooting class. The reason I don't, is what stands between me, and being a better shooter, can only come through intensive live fire, dry fire, studying things on the internet, and discussions with my wife and friends. I wish classes moved the needle for me, but unfortunately there is no short cut for me, besides putting in the work.

Is this unique to me, or are others experiencing the same?

[Kanye Wyoming]

I can't speak to the value of formal training/coaching for someone at your level except by analogy. Novak Djokovic has a coach. At his level the coaching team probably focuses more on strategy and tactics against a particular opponent, and providing structure. But even a player at that level is going to develop the occasional technical hiccup or bad habit that only a high level coach can diagnose and address. Or be able to take a leap forward by changing this or that little thing that will unleash higher performance.

[YVK]

I can't speak to the value of formal training/coaching for someone at your level except by analogy. Novak Djokovic has a coach. At his level the coaching team probably focuses more on strategy and tactics against a particular opponent, and providing structure. But even a player at that level is going to develop the occasional technical hiccup or bad habit that only a high level coach can diagnose and address.

I think you're right on strategy, tactics, or general approach. Technically maybe Goran can tell him something about the serve or overhead but I doubt that Nole needs any advice on every other aspect, including when he hiccups. I think that accurate self diagnosis is a mark of a well developed athlete, regardless of a sport. Coach is usually a validation tool in these instances.

[JohnK]

I'm not on an extremely high level of shooting but my impression is that sometimes, even chasing incremental improvement, technical instructors outside of your typical group can see things that you, your partners, friends don't see because they have a fresh set of eyes. But if there is anything I am absorbing lately from this forum it's that an instructor must be able to properly articulate the "what" and the "why" to get to the improvement.

[PNWTO]

I think the technical side of instruction, for shooting, is definitely valuable for new shooters and those who are pursuing achievement out of passion for the shooting sport(s). Looking back, I found value in attending every "technical" course within a reasonable distance because doing so helped me find a cruising altitude for my own needs. I've mentioned before that with a toddler, another one inbound, and other passions/necessities I have really put shooting on the backburner. That said, every so often I can grab the G19 or a LCR and go to a cozy spot on the property and have a 90% chance of passing one of Kyle Defoor's pistol tests (for example).

My example is probably full of holes and sighs but all the technical shooting instruction I have been through has allowed that baseline to exist and remain about the same. Could I be better? Most assuredly and I know what I offered shouldn't impress anyone on this forum.

I'm much more interested in the soft skills and practices that reinforce and enhance my family's safety.

[jetfire]

I used to take a lot of technical shooting classes. I still think they are very valuable for new shooters.

Lately, I rarely take a technical shooting class. The reason I don't, is what stands between me, and being a better shooter, can only come through intensive live fire, dry fire, studying things on the internet, and discussions with my wife and friends. I wish classes moved the needle for me, but unfortunately there is no short cut for me, besides putting in the work.

Is this unique to me, or are others experiencing the same?

There's a point on the shooting skill matrix where the benefit from a technical shooting class will be very small because you're looking for very small performance gains, right? The last technical class I went to I learned exactly 1 new thing that I found beneficial to my shooting goals. The rest of the benefit was engaging in what was essentially a structured coaching session. Which isn't a bad thing.

I do find that it's valuable before the season starts in earnest to take what amounts to a "tune up" class where I can run the gun at speed and check to see where I've fallen off during the off-season.

[45dotACP]

I used to take a lot of technical shooting classes. I still think they are very valuable for new shooters.

Lately, I rarely take a technical shooting class. The reason I don't, is what stands between me, and being a better shooter, can only come through intensive live fire, dry fire, studying things on the internet, and discussions with my wife and friends. I wish classes moved the needle for me, but unfortunately there is no short cut for me, besides putting in the work.

Is this unique to me, or are others experiencing the same?

What is the definition of a better shooter to you?

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[JohnO]

I used to take a lot of technical shooting classes. I still think they are very valuable for new shooters.

Lately, I rarely take a technical shooting class. The reason I don't, is what stands between me, and being a better shooter, can only come through intensive live fire, dry fire, studying things on the internet, and discussions with my wife and friends. I wish classes moved the needle for me, but unfortunately there is no short cut for me, besides putting in the work.

Is this unique to me, or are others experiencing the same?

Agree 100%.

I've given my opinion to many of my friends I train with. These guys and myself have over the course of 15+ years have been in countless classes with numerous big name instructors and some less widely known but very good instructors.

What I'm seeing locally is a number of individuals who show up because that's what everyone else is doing. I think a driving factor in attendance is rubbing shoulders with Mr. Cool High Speed Guy. Hey I trained with Delta Dan, Ranger Rick, IDPA Ivan, ... you name the trainer. Some of the guys just don't want to be the odd man out when they know their friends are going.

I've been in many of these classes where I went head to head with the trainer and beat them. But I'm not kidding myself. Just because I beat Mr. X multiple times in a walkback or Mr. Y in his signature drills doesn't mean I'm better than them when the feces hits the fan in combat. Yeah I admit it, I had some motivation to show up and do my thing for the attention I received.

I get the not wanting to miss it. I felt it myself when I backed away from going to every trainer that rolled into town. I realized it had become more of a social event with like minded individuals than an opportunity to increase my skill level. A few years before I decided I didn't need to attend everything I was in one way or another justifying it by saying it's worth it if I pick up just one or two golden nuggets.

For 15+ years I trained with a local guy in a monthly clinic he ran April - November. I never missed a date. (Then cancer got him.) That's what made me what I am.

When you see guys in class asking Mr. High Speed, "what pants are those" you can question their motivation. Or like I've seen, a group of guys who all have to change to the latest blaster Mr. High Speed is getting paid to promote. You get the idea their motivation isn't pure skill development.

As a new guy there is a lot of Dunning - Kruger in play. You don't know what you don't know. Absolutely when a shooter has a good grasp of the fundamentals and is 100% safe in a hot range open enrollment class they can benefit greatly from a class. Over time the amount of benefit one can derive really trails off.

The key in all this is to stay sharp. Learn what to practice and practice it. Take notes in class. Work on what you are not good at. Everyone likes to shoot/do what they are good at. Then going for a tuneup periodically would be beneficial.

[Noah]

I was mostly self taught from (good) sources on YouTube, a shot timer and paper drills, structured shooting every week with timed and scored drills, and some crucial instruction/coaching in a one hour class that helped me drastically fix my technique before the serious self learning began. That was in the Spring of 2019, with the practice and YouTube being from then to now.

When I finally attended 2 "real" classes in summer and fall 2021, I had the same experience. I didn't really learn anything groundbreaking. It was more of a coached shooting session like others have said. I also badly wished I'd taken at least the first class YEARS prior, as that would have been cheaper and faster than the self learning and structured practice.

However, if technical shooting classes are just the venue in which you try to shoot under pressure, I finally shot my first real IDPA match in Sept 2022 and USPSA match in Nov 2022.

Boy howdy. Between the 2, the matches do drastically more to pressure test skills, expose weaknesses, and drive improvement, once you've reached some baseline of competency, at least in my limited experience.

For me now, with my time/cost/ammo budget, competition and individual practice are the clear winner over technical classes. If I took a class now, it would be force on force, a tactics or MUC lecture, or something like ECQC.

[luckyman]

Drawing info from other physical skills (I’m not good enough to comment directly on shooting)…

Even for high performing individuals, a coach can significantly help by spotting details were the performer could be better, or is sliding back into bad habits. Plus the coach can make sure the performer isn’t focusing on fun stuff to the detriment of boring stuff they are week at.

As applies to shooting, I would think the questions are do you routinely video yourself, can you see the details of your performance in the video close to as well as a coach could see, do you have knowledge of effective corrective drills and cues, and do you have the judgement and discipline to work on what you need to work on?

Having said that, all the above comments about a coach assumes the coach has time to focus on you as an individual. Other than enforced practice and competition aspects, I’m not sure group classes do any high level individual performer much good. Of course any activity involving a team is a whole other ball of wax.

[Bergeron]

I am certainly much more on the newer spectrum than some other posters, but I will say that I like the "class" environment.

I think that matches improved me as a shooter more than classes, and also that the classes helped to create the foundational knowledge that I could build on.

I've always liked school. The shooting of a match is more fun than the shooting of a class, but there is much more shooting that gets to happen in a class. It's nice to get a full weekend, day, or half-day (admiring those people who have the 3-day/week-long classes) doing nothing but shooting and manipulating the gun.

It's nice to get a new project out of the gunsmith's and to see what it's really like, to burn in the new muscle memory and to have some meaningful round count through the thing, performing to some 3rd parties' objective standards in front of fellow members of the community.

I do also like the sense of community, and while that's absolutely present in the matches as well, it's a nice feeling to experience a mutual and simultaneous common level skill in gunhandling and marksmanship.

Sustained focus, camaraderie, round count, and the desire to achieve certain standards is where I find the value proposition of technical shooting classes. Matches are cheaper, and matches have probably done more to improve my skill level, but I view the two as complementary more than as competitors for my time and money.

[LOKNLOD]

Technical classes are more like very focused guided practice sessions at this point. They get a lot of reps in, in a shore amount of time, under the watchful eye of a knowledgeable instructor who can give immediate feedback.

It's not that I'm even close to "peak" shooting, but as you say, the next steps needed to move me to the next level are a lot of reps, and the realizations that come from that. If I'm not fully investing between (after) the classes, I'm not really maximizing the class value.

A class is still a good thing, but it feels like I'm getting a plate of fries in hopes of finding the one onion ring piece, instead just a getting a whole order of the onion rings. When ammo was cheap and time was available, that wasn't a terrible exercise, but neither in flowing freely these days...

At this point I'm more likely to seek out something more specialized, that's more application focused. John Hearne's cognitive pistol was a great example that required good shooting, but was more about applying it in a thinking environment.

I wouldn't be any where chose to this point without a background of technical classes from heavy hitters like Todd, Ernest, and Gabe, though.

[Rocky Racoon]

I used to take a lot of technical shooting classes. I still think they are very valuable for new shooters.

Lately, I rarely take a technical shooting class. The reason I don't, is what stands between me, and being a better shooter, can only come through intensive live fire, dry fire, studying things on the internet, and discussions with my wife and friends. I wish classes moved the needle for me, but unfortunately there is no short cut for me, besides putting in the work.

Is this unique to me, or are others experiencing the same?

Dammit. Post didn’t save.

[jandbj]

I wonder if something like John McPhee’s coach’s eye video sessions would help with your desired increment of improvement.

[JohnO]

I wonder if something like John McPhee’s coach’s eye video sessions would help with your desired increment of improvement.

No 1st hand personal experience here with McPhee AKA The Sheriff of Baghdad.

I've talked to guys who have gone to his training. Very low round count classes. The majority of time spent is critiquing everyone's videos. You will learn from watching others and listening to John critique them on video. Is this significantly different that watching others shoot live and listening to someone coach them?

You get your video/s to keep. Will seeing what John says you are doing incorrectly on video lead to you modifying your behavior? Will you have someone follow up with videos of you after the class so you can compare your pre-class self with your now modified technique/s?

My opinion on John's process is that you have to commit to following a specific path afterwards. I don't think just seeing what John says about your performance is enough to improve yourself.

[okie john]

I used to take a lot of technical shooting classes. I still think they are very valuable for new shooters.

Lately, I rarely take a technical shooting class. The reason I don't, is what stands between me, and being a better shooter, can only come through intensive live fire, dry fire, studying things on the internet, and discussions with my wife and friends. I wish classes moved the needle for me, but unfortunately there is no short cut for me, besides putting in the work.

Is this unique to me, or are others experiencing the same?

Same.

I got a solid foundation in bullseye pistol and classical rifle shooting when I was a kid. In the Army, I learned ODA-level tactics from folks who used them in southeast Asia. I took a few civilian classes from solid instructors between 1995 and 2016. Now that the police have been defunded, I focus on avoiding situations that might lead to fights.

These days, strength training and range time are probably more beneficial than technical training. I will take more classes if I find a red-dot sight that I can use with astigmatism, but that's about it.


Okie John

[ASH556]

GJM, I'm not on your level and not professing to be, but still probably a pretty decent shooter by most standards; especially given the time and resources I'm able to put towards it. I've taken 4 formal classes ever:
Vickers Basic Carbine - 2011
Vickers Advanced Pistol Marksmanship - 2014
Gabe White - 2017, Dark Pin
Gabe White - 2021, Light Pin

While there were certainly valuable things in these classes, especially Gabe's, I've gained FAR more insight into performance improvement and skill building from working with a couple close friends who are also very good shooters along with regular dryfire. Very often it was a small "try this" or "shift that" in a range session from friends who I'd shot with enough to know both what I was capable of and also what it looked like when I was off.

As jetfire said, sometimes it's 1 thing. In a class, you're burning hundreds-thousands of rounds plus potential travel and tuition to get that 1 thing from an instructor whereas your "crew" may be able to get it for you in 5 min.