Your top 5 pistols in all calibers, trigger types, finishes....

[StainlessSteel215]

Whats up everyone....just joined and looking forward to good pistol discussions with you all. I currently have 4 myself:

-Glock26 Gen 3 for concealed carry
-Sig GSR 1911 in .45acp
-Taurus PT809 9mm
-Kel-Tech PLR-16 5.56/223

For now I'm pretty content with my top 4 pistol collection. As of now until funds improve, I am slowly saving up for one more carry pistol (for now) in a compact 1911 style to give me a nice collection of 5. Thinking of the Springfield Ultra Carry or Kimber Ultra both in .45 acp....and once I save the big money its gonna be a Dan Wesson V-Bob polished stainless 1911 with custom cocobolo grips

I did a review of each on my youtube channel below in the sig...check it out and leave feedback!

[Tamara]

Nevah Mind

[JV_]

+1 Tam.

Top 4 are Glocks, in 9mm, and the bottom slot is a J-Frame.

[ToddG]

Awwwwww!

I just spent five minutes trying to find the ideal popcorn-eating-gif in response to Tam and now she 86'd it.

[shooter220]

Have you thought about picking one of those pistols that best suits your requirements, and then selling off the other three and using the proceeds to buy a duplicate and a bunch of ammo?

Or at least NOT adding another pistol, but investing in the other aspects of shooting like good holster, extra mags, mag carriers, and things like that if appropriate.

I have a bunch of different guns, but there is only one that is ALWAYS with me at the range, a blued P225 with old-style Nill Grips and an Ernest Langdon trigger job. I suspect it is a MUCH more rare pistol than it looks like.

-shooter

[StainlessSteel215]

What in the hell kinda responses are those? I see not one answer and lots of edits. Legit question....zero answer.

[StainlessSteel215]

Ahhh I see what happened here.
So a guy cant legit post a link to a their youtube channel for feedback on gun reviews?? Hey guys, I aint Hickok45 looking to rake in a million hits! If that is some sort of witchcraft on here I wish someone told me instead of posting this hipster internet nerd garbage.

Wow.....maybe I came to the wrong place to discuss handguns?

[JDM]

Stainless, please check your PMs.

[StainlessSteel215]

Take it to the PMs. Thanks, LittleLebowski

[ToddG]

OK, since you asked, here's my answer.

You say you want a fifth carry pistol. Among the first four you listed the Kel-Tech (sic) PLR-16 5.56/223 ... is that something you actually carry?

Among the rest you have a baby Glock, a full size 1911, and a DA/SA Taurus: three different guns with wildly different trigger mechanisms and ergonomics. So to echo what Tam started and others have already repeated, I'd recommend fewer carry options, not more.

Given what you've already got on hand, I'd sell or trade everything but the G26, buy a G19 as a second pistol that you can use for practice and when clothing/circumstances allow CCWing a bigger gun, and devote the rest to training and ammunition.

[jetfire]

Caleb's top five carry pistols:


Whatever I'm getting paid to carry
Whatever I'm getting paid to carry
Whatever I'm getting paid to carry
Whatever I'm getting paid to carry
Whatever I'm getting paid to carry

[StainlessSteel215]

Sorry this turned into a pointless thread....

Todd to answer your question since you gave the time to address my post....I dont understand being limited to a single carry pistol or two. Yes, my Glock26 is my dedicated carry gun in 9mm but I also want to have a backup compact 1911 in .45acp as well....to be proficient in both weights, makes, calibers, triggers, etc. I also plan to maintain guns for collection purposes. After all they are no depreciating anytime soon and I enjoy target shooting with all my various makes and models.

I am certainly not a marksman and hitting 6" groups from 20 yards is about as good as I can get right now. Ive never taken a SD course but plan to take one at my local range over the next 2 months. They simulate high stress situations which is something I think I certainly need. I'm 30 years old, been shooting for about 5-6 years now and just looking to get better and more prepared....as well as enjoying target shooting particularly with my Kel-Tec .223 pistol

Is this mainly a defensive training forum? I dont see much in the way of gun collections or broad discussion....all I see is details regarding customs pistol mods and carry systems. Thats fine, but I like to expand my horizons and discuss all types of pistols in both SA/DA for carry and for target shooting.

[F-Trooper05]

1) Glock 17
2) Five spare mags
3) Ammo
4) Holster
5) Training class

[MKabar]

H&K P30LS V3 9 mm Luger
H&K USP Expert 9 mm Luger SA/DA
H&K P2000SK V3 9 mm Luger
H&K HK45 Tactical 45 ACP SA/DA
H&K future model (Expert 2 based on P30 is my dream gun)

[gtmtnbiker98]

Is this mainly a defensive training forum? I dont see much in the way of gun collections or broad discussion....all I see is details regarding customs pistol mods and carry systems. Thats fine, but I like to expand my horizons and discuss all types of pistols in both SA/DA for carry and for target shooting.

I think you might be on to something. We shoot, we don't collect. Plenty of other forums for "chit chat."

[shooter220]

More so than most gun-related forums, this is a group of hardcore shooters, not collectors. Many shoot for 1-2 purposes, with some emphasis on carry and competition. What you enjoy, and your goal may be entirely different.

Personally, my thought is that if you just want to have a variety of calibers available, the best bet is generally to pick one system and stick with it. If you look at any one "line" of guns, 1911, Sigs, Springfield xD and xDm, Glock, whatever, you can generally cover a lot of different caliber/size options, and have consistent sights, trigger pull, slide release, decocker/safety/nothing.

That said - I own a variety. I have .22s because they are cheap, and fun, and are great to teach new shooters on. I like revolvers, especially big, heavy, impractical to carry revolvers. They make great introductions to centerfire arms, and when loaded lightly recoil like a .22, but they can also be loaded up pretty stoutly They are great to practice long, heavy DA pulls, and precise sight alignment. I am FAR more accurate at long range with a revolver than an auto, even a good target auto. I like 1911s because I feel like I should own a Bible and an American Flag, not because it is the best handgun on the planet.

If you wanted a fifth, dissimilar, handgun, I would recommend a revolver, or a .22, if not a companion to that G26 you already have. But, like I said earlier - you need to figure out your purpose behind expanding the arsenal. Is it to have more toys to play with (and clean), or is it in search of another carry option? Or to have a handgun that you think will be more successful shooting snakes on the farm? We can't answer that for you.

-shooter

[Sparks2112]

I think you might be on to something. We shoot, we don't collect. Plenty of other forums for "chit chat."

Well in fairness we probably all collect too, this is certainly a shooters forum however.

To the original OP: The problem you're running into here is that mentioning a kel-tec and a Taurus in a top five list immediately sets the collective on edge. They're not considered quality firearms by many in the know, and if you're actually interested to hear the reasoning behind that I'm sure we wouldn't mind taking the time to tell you why that is. Without disparaging other forums, this one has one of the lowest BS factors anywhere on the web.

[Odin Bravo One]

Is this mainly a defensive training forum? I dont see much in the way of gun collections or broad discussion....all I see is details regarding customs pistol mods and carry systems. Thats fine, but I like to expand my horizons and discuss all types of pistols in both SA/DA for carry and for target shooting.

I think you will find the great majority of the members here are serious about the serious nature of defense, and are oriented towards the legal, safe, and practical use of the pistol for defensive purposes. Certainly there are times, topics, and threads that distract from that, but the members are the ones who drive the train, and keeping topics towards the practical use for defense and self-improvement is a high priority for many.

My guess, and only my guess, is that because there are already a metric ton of forums geared towards hobby shooter's and collector's, this place remains mostly defensive/duty minded to keep the noise to signal ratio down, and keep this site a place where people looking for something beyond hobby shooting can find answers that may help them to become a better shooter, gun handler, and have (mostly) serious discussions with like minded folks who are all trying to be as prepared as possible if they were to find themselves faced with a lethal force encounter.

Not to say we don't get some goofy discussions going, we do. But many of our members are here, were referred here, and participate here because they tired of some of the sillyness and adolescent behavior found on many of the hobbyist boards.

Many members own and carry a variety of firearms for personal and/or professional reasons, and you will see many make transitions from one platform to another as they search for their own "perfect" gun. But I think you will find that the majority also see a lot of truth in the adage "beware the man with one gun".

I am certainly a "collector". I don't know how many I am up to. 7 shotguns in the past 3 months alone. But this is not the board I discuss my toys on very often.

[StainlessSteel215]

I think you might be on to something. We shoot, we don't collect. Plenty of other forums for "chit chat."

I appreciate the honest response GTM. Admittedly I have an equal passion for both....and should have looked around and been more aware of what this place was focused on. Anyways my G26 Gen 3 is my baby....I carry it everywhere in a DeSantis IWB leather holster and I hit 6" groups from about 18 yards. Next step is a SD class at my local range.

Im a new guy here. I am honest, humble, and willing to learn and put my ego aside. I guess I was firing too strong with my first post, sorry everyone. NOT a troll....in any way....I just get excited about my guns ;)

Thanks Sean for the breakdown, I needed it and much more aware of this community now.

And Sparks BY NO MEANS do I consider my Kel-Tec and Taurus 809 my ultimate defense guns....not at all. I know exactly where both companies fall on the "quality" spectrum. That being said...I truly think the 800 series by Taurus is the first real step to redefining Taurus back into the semi-auto market. I did a video on the PT809 and read nothing but AMAZING reviews for months before I picked it up. Its one of the best full size 9mm's Ive ever owned, and Ive owned about 7 of them so far. In my opinion it trumps the Ruger SR9, the S&W Sigma series, Beretta P series, Springfield XD, dare I say the M&P 9? Maybe not, but close. I Had it for a month and dropped 500 rounds through it without a single hiccup....nothing. And the Kel-Tec is just my range toy. Its enjoyable to shoot 30rds of .223 and some day I may look at that gun and rely on it and it's high capacity for defense. Who knows, I just thoroughly enjoy shooting it and how inexpensive it is to add upgrades to it.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I appreciate the honest response GTM. Admittedly I have an equal passion for both....and should have looked around and been more aware of what this place was focused on. Anyways my G26 Gen 3 is my baby....I carry it everywhere in a DeSantis IWB leather holster and I hit 6" groups from about 18 yards. Next step is a SD class at my local range.

Im a new guy here. I am honest, humble, and willing to learn and put my ego aside. I guess I was firing too strong with my first post, sorry everyone. NOT a troll....in any way....I just get excited about my guns ;)

Thanks Sean for the breakdown, I needed it and much more aware of this community now.

And Sparks BY NO MEANS do I consider my Kel-Tec and Taurus 809 my ultimate defense guns....not at all. I know exactly where both companies fall on the "quality" spectrum. That being said...I truly think the 800 series by Taurus is the first real step to redefining Taurus back into the semi-auto market. I did a video on the PT809 and read nothing but AMAZING reviews for months before I picked it up. Its one of the best full size 9mm's Ive ever owned, and Ive owned about 6 of them so far. I Had it for a month and dropped 500 rounds through it without a single hiccup....nothing. And the Kel-Tec is just my range toy. Its fun to shoot .223 and some day I may look at that gun and rely on it and it's high capacity. Who knows, I just thoroughly enjoy shooting it and how inexpensive it is to add upgrades to it.
You'll be fine. Just realize you are playing in somebody's yard with their own rules. Don't question too much and you'll be fine.

[StainlessSteel215]

You'll be fine. Just realize you are playing in somebody's yard with their own rules. Don't question too much and you'll be fine.

I can check my ego and suck down those first few comments...I get it. Were all good.

The more I look around here the more I like it. I am in fact a member of another forum that is mostly geared around various collections ranging from revolvers, shotguns, rifles to all types of handguns with a STRONG emphasis on the 1911 collectors. Some day if I have $2k to throw around I will absolutely purchase a Dan Wesson 1911....its my dream pistol. So, that being said I realize the value in being a member here because I absolutely do need to focus on SD and mastering my carry system in 9mm. Next step, is creating my secondary carry system for my compact .45 which I am still contemplating on which gun to purchase. Thanks for giving me a 2nd chance guys & gals....I plan to ask LOTS of relevant questions over time

[CCT125US]

Make sure to check out the drill of the week, both past and present. As stated previously, we enjoy shooting and pushing to do better. Find YOUR starting point and push your limits.

[Alaskapopo]

Some people are shooters some are collectors. I agree to a point with the idea that you should focus on one gun type so you will be very proficient with it. However once you get to a certain level you will be able to shoot all action types well. I shoot three gun, USPSA, IDPA and Steel Challenge and I shoot a varied amount of different guns and I enjoy it and I own a lot of firearms they each serve a purpose for me. Some of my guns are for work and carry and others are for the shooting sports. A few are just because. If you have limited funds I agree your better off getting training than owning 5 different pistols all built for the same general mission.
Pat

[Joe in PNG]

One great thing about this forum is the almost epic number of high level SME's (Subject Matter Experts) here, and most are willing to answer questions and give advice for free.
BUT if one of them is turning your sacred cow into hamburger, be sure to have a good reason to argue with them- and the sheer facts to back everything up. Just because my Blastomatic has run well for me means little to the SME who has never seen the same make of gun finish a class without exploding like a grenade.

As for reviewing a gun or two here, be more objective than subjective. How does that Brand X Blastomatic do on a FAST drill time wise? How about compared to a similar Glock? What kind of groups is it shooting at 5-10-20 yards with what kind of ammo- both practice and defensive? It's one thing to say that everything 'feels' good... but if you have the numbers to back it up, then it is objective.
Check out the 2000 round challenge thread or Todd's various reviews, for instance.

[Sparks2112]

RE: Taurus quality

I work at a high volume lgs and try my damnedest to interject some form of rationality into whatever topic comes up in my pond. My boss, who is first and foremost a business man quit carrying Taurus semi autos for two reasons. A) I refused to sell them to people unless I was pretty much forced to, and would not compromise my personal ethics to just "sell" one to someone. B) the number of them that we're coming from the factory inop, right out of the box mind you, was staggering. Not to mention the ones that broke after the customer got them home.

While outliers exist for any given example from any given manufacturer, on the whole I've yet to see a Taurus product that wasn't absolute garbage. Any company that markets a .410 revolver as a viable self defense option to the public has lost all future credibility to me, and yes I'm talking about you too S&W.

There is a reason why no agency in the USA that I'm aware of has ever adopted a Taurus product for a duty weapon, and the politicians in charge of those decisions are some of the cheapest people on the planet. This is a clue.

As far as a compact/subcompact .45 for carry, my question to you is what do you think you would be gaining by switching to such a platform?

[StainlessSteel215]

Great post Sparks, it was honest and again I am fully aware of where Taurus stands on the quality spectrum, even their revolvers. I bought 1 and only 1 .357 Taurus revolver because after about a month....the piss poor "mush" in the cylinder gap was getting worse and worse. You could literally set the cylinder in place and rotate it at LEAST a full millimeter. lead shavings were getting worse, etc.

The Taurus since you mentioned it, is purely a backup/range pistol and occasionally a nightstand gun. The Glock26 is my lifeline. The Taurus is just backup....but...I do fully trust this model so far. Its got a ton of positive reviews and Im one of them. For the unbelievable sale price I picked this gun up for ($350) I really wanted to give Taurus another shot with this semi. Again, purely for target practice and backup but is performing with 5 stars in every area.

Anyways, I digress...

Now that I am getting a firm handle & consistent accuracy with my 9mm carry gun, I also want to be just as proficient with a .45 for carry. Leaning towards a 1911 compact, a Sig P250, or possibly even a HK USP45c. I would absolutely stay with Glock but want to branch out and have some diversity

[Sparks2112]

Now that I am getting a firm handle & consistent accuracy with my 9mm carry gun, I also want to be just as proficient with a .45 for carry. Leaning towards a 1911 compact, a Sig P250, or possibly even a HK USP45c. I would absolutely stay with Glock but want to branch out and have some diversity

1) I've yet to meet a 1911 under 4.25" bl that I would consider even remotely reliable, and I've seen a lot of them. It's hard enough to get a 5" consistently running properly without dropping some serious coin, the 3.5" are worse.

2) the Sig 250 has been dropped by every large agency or government entity that's ever adopted it. I believe Denmark (someone correct me if I'm wrong) went so far as to pretty much eviscerate Sig and the p250 in their public record while returning a 20k order because Sig could not make them work.

3) Good pistol, the newer hk45c has superior ergonomics in my mind, but of the guns you've listed this would be the only one I'd consider a viable self defense option.

To echo what Todd said. You would be MUCH better served picking up a Glock 17/19 and securing quality instruction and more practice ammo. .45 is going to offer you zero to minimal ballistic advantage over a 9mm, will hold less rounds, and cost more to practice with. You will not be gaining skills by switching platforms and calibers that could not be improved to a much greater degree by choosing one platform and one caliber. The number of people who can shoot multiple calibers and platforms equally well is incredibly small, and most of them got there shooting one platform/caliber for a really long time. I know it's not the fun answer, but yeah, we're dicks like that.

[StainlessSteel215]

You really do make valid points and I was FULLY unaware of the Sig250 recall issue.....wow.

I am very intrigued already by this place, you guys really seem knowledgable in this area and what you wrote does make sense. Ill be honest, other than learning to shoot a bigger caliber more accurately there really is not a single overwhelming reason to invest time interchanging 9mm and 45acp.

Again, I am a novice level Joe Shmoe consumer/collector/target shooter/self defense amateur looking to create a perfect defense plan for myself, my wife, and 1 year old daughter for my next 50+ years (I am 30 now). Right now that consists of an alarm system, common sense, and confidence using my firearms.

I am really looking forward to absorbing as much as humanly possible on here. I am a fairly stubborn guy and now honestly considering what you wrote about consolidating and mastering the 9mm as best I can. Thanks for your sincere feedback to a new stranger.

[Odin Bravo One]

Dog would be a good addition.

Cheaper than an Hk45c, and much cheaper to feed. And a dog has loyalty and they are generally protective of those they love. Hk has proven they have no loyalty, though I guess they are protective of themselves, since that is the only group of people they seem to love.

[Sparks2112]

Dog would be a good addition.

Cheaper than an Hk45c, and much cheaper to feed. And a dog has loyalty and they are generally protective of those they love. Hk has proven they have no loyalty, though I guess they are protective of themselves, since that is the only group of people they seem to love.

That's not fair...

They like Todd, though he is a lawyer... ;)

[ToddG]

Dog would be a good addition. Cheaper than an Hk45c...

Speak for yourself...

[F-Trooper05]

Youve got a good attitude, brother. You'll fit in well.

[Odin Bravo One]

You asked if there were any special considerations for that breed in the heat. I got you an answer.

You didn't ask if they were expensive.

[ToddG]

You didn't ask if they were expensive.

Very true and no complaints!

[Dagga Boy]

Sean, if you have a HK45C, I have a dog I would LOVE to trade you. It would be the logical thing for you to do.

[DocGKR]

SS215:

Since 1985, at various times I have been issued, qualified with, or authorized to carry the Beretta 92F/M9, classic Sig P226/228 & P220, S&W 3rd gen pistols, Glock 9 mm's, S&W M&P's, various 1911’s, as well as several S&W revolvers including J, K, L , and N-frames. I also have a fair degree of experience with Browning Hi-Powers, Glock 22/23 & 21, various HK pistols. I have been certified as an armorer on several of these systems. All of these handguns had both good and bad characteristics. I have been lucky to have gotten to travel around the country and world quite a bit and gotten to see what other units and agencies are using and assess how their weapon systems are functioning.

After having gone through the juvenile collector stage of idiotically wasting money by purchasing one or two of every type of service pistol ever produced, I finally grew-up and realized it is far better to strive to master one quality pistol type, then be perpetually mediocre with many. I strongly recommend purchasing two or three identical pistols once you have decided upon the model that you plan to use, carry, and train with. I dedicate one pistol for carry after thoroughly vetting function with 1000 or so rounds through it. Another identical pistol is solely used for training--it is shot till it breaks with minimal cleaning or babying during its service life. If I am able to afford a third pistol, it serves as a back-up to the other two and usually sits in an easily accessible safe as a readily available personal defense weapon mounting an x300 light.

Carefully assess what your defensive pistol and handgun caliber needs are, based on potential engagement scenarios, objective measurements of skill including scores and times, and ancillary factors.

When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects when comparing common service pistol calibers, as noted here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo. In the last decade or so, ammo engineers have produced a superb generation of 9 mm projectiles that offer penetration in the ideal range and that are capable of good performance after common intermediate barriers. As many agencies are discovering, modern robust expanding, barrier blind 9 mm ammunition is performing on par with larger caliber handgun loads, but offers substantial fiscal and training benefits. In test after test, most officers demonstrate a higher qualification score when shooting 9 mm compared to other common service calibers. Smaller statured officers and those with small hands tend to shoot better with 9 mm. Service pistols tend to be more durable in 9 mm than those in .357 Sig and .40 S&W. In a time of fiscal austerity, 9 mm ammunition is certainly less expensive. For most LE duties and civilian self-defense encoutners, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9 mm: easy to shoot--especially one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets. When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a .45 ACP 1911.

The nice aspects of .45 ACP are that it makes large holes, can be very accurate, and offers good penetration of some intermediate barriers. Unfortunately, magazine capacity is less than ideal, .45 ACP is more expensive to practice with, and in general is harder to shoot well compared with 9 mm. .45 ACP makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd magazine restrictions, in organizations that give you lots of free .45 ACP ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations. I primarily used a .45 ACP pistol from 1986-2011. Given the information above, as well as numerous other salient factors, there is very little reason for most individuals to use a .45 ACP anymore. Rather than using larger caliber duty pistols, most CONUS urban LE agencies and civilian CCW/defensive shooters would be better served by using a quality 9 mm handgun (Glock 17/19, S&W M&P9, or HK P30) along with good ammunition, and then spending the majority of their efforts and funds on effective, high quality, ongoing firearms training and regular practice—a good minimum would be 100 rounds per week of dedicated, objective, monitored and scored training shots.

[LittleLebowski]

Speak for yourself...

Just get one off Craigslist, done :D Doesn't everybody get Belgian Mals off of Craigslist?

[LittleLebowski]

The more I look around here the more I like it. I am in fact a member of another forum that is mostly geared around various collections ranging from revolvers, shotguns, rifles to all types of handguns with a STRONG emphasis on the 1911 collectors. Some day if I have $2k to throw around I will absolutely purchase a Dan Wesson 1911....its my dream pistol.

I once did something like that. I dropped more than $2k on a Nighthawk Predator (http://nighthawktactical.com/predator.html). I didn't really learn anything about shooting pistols until I bought a $500 Glock 19, started doing ToddG's drills (http://pistol-training.com/drills), and took his Aim Fast Hit Fast class. Years later, I've improved vastly upon my performance at that first class, even getting on the FAST Wall of Fame (http://pistol-training.com/fastest/fast-wall-of-fame).. I still have a long way to go and am not satisfied with where I'm at. I just wish I could go back in time and have bought that Glock 19 earlier and added sights, holster, ammo, mags, and training. It's not a collector friendly forum here but if you start trying working on your skillset, you will not find a better place for help, encouragement, and positive critique.

Trust me, some hard won truths are being put in front of you. It is vastly more rewarding to learn about how to shoot and to eventually do well at it. For the folks on this forum, firearms isn't all about rounding out one's collection (although there's at least one serious collector on here that can really, really shoot), it's about learning a martial skill. Pistol shooting is hard to learn and as I said before, it's extremely rewarding to learn how to shoot a pistol well considering how sorry most American pistol owners are at actually shooting pistols.

[Valion]

This is a fascinating thread, because I find myself in the OP's position, with less than a year's worth of pistol ownership under my belt. I understand the siren song of a new pistol, believe me. My "collection" so far is a DA/SA HK45C, a Les Baer Custom Carry, and an LEM HK P30. I don't regret the purchases, but if I had it to do all over again, I'd have started with the P30 and stopped until I became proficient with it through a lot of practice and, most importantly, a lot of classes. I know I've already picked up bad habits with each of them, and I'm sure it'll be much more difficult to un-learn those habits than it would have been to never pick them in the first place.

I personally think there's a mildly addictive quality to that new gun purchase. Maybe it's just the "newness" of it all to me, but I enjoy shopping around, seeing what's what, shooting new stuff. Even now I catch myself going, "You know, I should really get a Glock. Everyone needs a Glock."

The trouble is, they're all pretty different from each other. I bet if I could shoot every day and received as much free ammo as I wanted, I'd probably wind up proficient with all three of them, but I don't find myself in that situation, so it's recently started to make a lot more sense to me to pick the pistol I want to use and get good with it.

I don't think there's a thing in the world wrong with collecting, and I know that the P30 won't be the last buy I make, but for me, it makes a lot more sense to wait until I can run that P30 well before picking up another range toy.

[StainlessSteel215]

I appreciate the responses guys, and already I am rethinking my business model as a gun owner. I certainly dont consider myself a "collector" because my lack of expert knowledge and finances dont allow for it just yet. I own 4 and want to be fast and efficient with all 4....but I am liking the notion of not just being proficient in multiple guns and calibers....but being an expert in a particular model.

Doc that was a very genuine and well thought out article, and making me rethink my "need" for owning a .45acp while I am still mastering the 9mm. My problem is that I am married to my Sig 1911 and its gonna be tough for me to let it go. Its a hulking and heavy piece and not ideal for carry...just for target shooting or a nightstand gun. Ill have to really weigh out the pro's and con's to this decision to get rid of it....although it could buy LOTS of ammo and other accessories.

I do love the 9mm SA, striker fired, compact carry system which is why I bought my G26....and happy to read your comments that strongly support it Doc. Again, I have a lot to contemplate moving ahead but do support the notion of less options, more ammo, and a mastery of my carry guns for SD.

You guys rock - glad I didnt pack up leave after my initial gang initiation beatdown!

[YVK]

Doc that was a very genuine and well thought out article, and making me rethink my "need" for owning a .45acp while I am still mastering the 9mm. My problem is that I am married to my Sig 1911 and its gonna be tough for me to let it go. Its a hulking and heavy piece and not ideal for carry...just for target shooting or a nightstand gun. Ill have to really weigh out the pro's and con's to this decision to get rid of it....although it could buy LOTS of ammo and other accessories.



Let me help you with this: GSR, while not as bad as Taurus products, is not very well regarded in 1911 circles. Sig's recent QC has been under a question raising issues of expertise of assembly and quality of small parts, the gun doesn't have a wide representation in firearms circles so you don't get enough feedback (the one I saw in a class couldn't get through it without multiple malfunctions), external extractor, while conceptually making sense, has very little potential for adjustment - if it works then great, if something is off then you're out of luck. I don't know if they changed the design, but in past they used a Schwartz-type FP safety - the type which usually disqualifies a 1911 in the eyes of a serious user; if you feel like you want an FP safety, most would recommend Colt's series 80 system. Consider getting rid of it as a resource-freeing step and step towards an ownership of a reputable 1911, when your finances allow for it.




I do love the 9mm SA, striker fired, compact carry system which is why I bought my G26....


As CCT125US mentioned above, pay attention to a DOW section of this site, moderated by DocGKR. The fact that you can hit something at distance from your 26 is great, but doesn't tell the full story. Many very good shooters wouldn't go smaller than 19 in 9 mm Glocks for a primary, especially that there is not a big difference between the two in concealment.

[Sparks2112]

You guys rock - glad I didnt pack up leave after my initial gang initiation beatdown!

Nothing personal, we're protective of the overall experience of the forum, and it's hard sometimes to present information in a way that encourages change in thought process. Also, good on you, most people don't want to hear it anyway.

[DocGKR]

A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user with a bit of gray in their hair, who grew-up using the 1911, and who is willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will not use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II & some S&W 1911's) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. However, I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911... I write this after being around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including GI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or 4th gen G21. After being issued, qualified on, or carrying 1911's for 25 years, in 2011 I retired the 1911's and transitioned to the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit--it worked just as well as the very expensive custom 1911's I had used for decades, but was easier to service, held more ammo, was lighter to tote, and far less expensive. Of course, unless you live in a state with an idiotic restriction on magazine capacity, most folks would be better off with a quality 9 mm, which is why I have gone to exclusively carrying a 9 mm for 2012...

[DocGKR]

"Many very good shooters wouldn't go smaller than 19 in 9 mm Glocks for a primary, especially that there is not a big difference between the two in concealment."

Absolutely! The G26 can be a good BUG, but I would not generally want it as a primary CCW. A very experienced senior SOF NCO who has battled many of our Nation's foes and who has the distinction of having used 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP pistols in combat during various phases of his career wrote the following superb analysis discussing pistol calibers recently:


"Not getting into the weapons transition issues from frame design to frame design (it's the reason I love to hate the Glock), the fact of the matter is that the recoil on the G23 crosses the magic line of running the shit out of your pistol. Allow me to explain... Most of the guys mentioned that they can handle the reduced size of the 19 and the recoil increase over the G17 is acceptable. Most of us have also determined that this does NOT cross over to the .40 cartridge. Guys with a firm handle on recoil manipulation can use the G22 and G35 with acceptable results. However when you go down to G26's and G23's, the juice is not worth the squeeze. The recoil is now noticeably effecting times and it's measurable. If you can't effectively control recoil and are wasting time allowing your pistol to settle between shots then this is all a wash and means nothing to you, but if you can apply the fundamentals effectively you will quickly see that you can't run a sub compact 9 or a compact .40 worth a shit. So a decision to accept a larger pistol in order to have an acceptable recoil impulse based upon caliber must be made. The smallest 9mm Glock recoil that I will accept is the G19 and I will not go below the G22 when bumping up to .40."

SS215:

What does the shot timer and tell you about how you are doing with your pistols? How are your scores on an NRA B8 at 25 yds for 10 rds slow fire? How are your times and scores on various standardized courses of fire like:

The LAPD SWAT pistol qual: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5515-Week-47-DB-Modified-LAPD-SWAT-Qual.

Kyle Defoor's three Pistol tests:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtczDAUul0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcoBHmXHxMk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wugfoKJ0-fA&feature=plcp.

El Prez, Bill Drill, FAST, 500 point Aggregate, Hackathorn's Drills, etc... ?

When you have explored your capabilities and OBJECTIVELY know how you are doing by time and score--not just how you "feel" you are shooting, you will know what pistol is best for you.

[jetfire]

Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems.

.38 Supers work just fine too, but no one carries a Super these days.

[JonInWA]

Guys, the SIG 1911's have NEVER used a Schwartz- or Schwartz-type safety; they have always utilized the Series 80 Colt type, unless there's some very recent manufacturing change that I'm unaware of, which I doubt (but I've certainly been wrong before...). I'm frankly flabbergasted that this misconception has come up here.

Here's a link to a somewhat detailed analysis and history of the SIG 1911-the good, the bad, and the ugly; feel free to critique and/or correct-but please do so knowledgeably and with some experience with the gun(s) is all that I ask. I don't think anyone will have any problems on figuring out who I am in the linked thread...

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=97873#Post97873

Incidentally, one change that I just made to my personal GSR XO this week was to switch out the grips for a set of David Barnes' VCD grips (based largely on Todd's glowing review of them on his Warren/SACS test piece) in Olive; the fit and feel is superb in dry-firing, but I won't have a chance to live-fire test them until later this month in all likelihood.

Best, Jon

[BLR]

.38 Supers work just fine too, but no one carries a Super these days.

I do. I love my Supers. CorBon and Underwood have great SD Super loadings. I like the 124g XTPs best. I have a NM "Super38" that I cherish.

The 9x23 is a thing of beauty, too.

Top 5 pistols, in order:
1. (Obviously) 1911. Blued. 45ACP
2. Colt New Frontier, 45LC (blued/case 7.5")
3. Colt Python (blued, 6")
4. S&W 38-44 Heavy Duty Target (I admit I secretly lust after her gun, which I would buy in an instant...)
5. S&W M57, 6" blued

[YVK]

Guys, the SIG 1911's have NEVER used a Schwartz- or Schwartz-type safety; they have always utilized the Series 80 Colt type,
Best, Jon

I stand corrected then.

[DocGKR]

It's the S&W's that had the Schwartz, not the Sigs.

[JAD]

.38 Supers work just fine too, but no one carries a Super these days.

Hardly anyone.

[StainlessSteel215]

Well....I did it last night. After some careful contemplation I decided to give up the .45 and use that money for ammo and getting REALLY good with my G26. I have a more clear mission in mind now moving ahead, I appreciate the advice guys.

I have a lot to re-learn. The Sig .45 was more or less an impulse buy for investment purposes

[Sparks2112]

Well....I did it last night. After some careful contemplation I decided to give up the .45 and use that money for ammo and getting REALLY good with my G26. I have a more clear mission in mind now moving ahead, I appreciate the advice guys.

I have a lot to re-learn. The Sig .45 was more or less an impulse buy for investment purposes

Pick up a 19 or 17 and you'll be gtg. :) Glad you stuck around.

[shooter220]

The upside of selling the Sig 1911 is that you should put enough money in your pocket to outfit yourself nicely - especially if you are sticking with a Glock. Look into the GSSF Membership - you pay $60 or so, and you can buy a Glock at significantly reduced pricing. It isn't quite as good a deal as it used to be, but it is still good.

-shooter

[StainlessSteel215]

The upside of selling the Sig 1911 is that you should put enough money in your pocket to outfit yourself nicely - especially if you are sticking with a Glock. Look into the GSSF Membership - you pay $60 or so, and you can buy a Glock at significantly reduced pricing. It isn't quite as good a deal as it used to be, but it is still good.

-shooter

Thats right Shooter....already placed a nice fat ammo order last night on CTD.com consisting of 124gr +P Remington Golden Sabre and lots of PMC 115gr FMJ for practice. I believe it was 800 rounds total. Half went into savings and the rest in my firearm fund. Selling it for $750 after consignment/commission. 2 employees and myself were confident that it will get scooped up within days, I priced it ready to sell so its not sitting for weeks ;)

[Sparks2112]

Curious to see how you like that GS 124+P. The examples of it I shot were pretty flashy in comparison to the other similar options. This has been awhile though since I performed a comparison of loads, and either way it makes Doc's list, so it should be g2g.

[DocGKR]

Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P (GSB9MMD) made the list, not regular 124 gr +P GS (GS9MMD).

[Sparks2112]

Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P (GSB9MMD) made the list, not regular 124 gr +P GS (GS9MMD).

So the question then becomes, which one did he order... :-)

One of the things I'm most proud of about where I work is we carry almost every load there is on the list with only a few exceptions.

I'm still curious to see how that Hornady stuff works out.

[Sparks2112]

A quick check of CTD doesn't look so good...

[StainlessSteel215]

Ill have to check when I get home, honestly I didnt even know the 2 options were available when I placed the order....I dont see how bonded vs unbonded would be a groundbreaking difference though. Packs the same punch from a short distance, right?

[Business_Casual]

Some more free advice - expect there to be ups and downs and buyer's remorse, expect it to get worse before it gets better. Expect to really miss that 1911. Expect to be tempted to buy an FNX or a PPQ. But don't; instead think how much ammo/training/practice $600 will buy you. Don't give up, don't try to "buy" accuracy with whatever new pistol is offered, don't try to modify your gun to get better results right away. My first handgun was a Springfield 1911. My latest was Glock 19. If I could have all the money back I spent on pistols in between those two... I'm not saying you have to buy a Glock, at all; just that the answer to being a good shot is between your ears and at the range, not in the glass case at the FFL.

Pistol shooting is really easy. Shooting a pistol well is really, really hard. It takes practice and hard work to set off an explosion near your head and not flinch.

Take some classes with recognized experts - there's a forum for that on here - that will teach you drills you can practice weekly. Dry fire is OK, but your brain knows there is no bang coming, so it is off limited utility. Stick with it - there's a guy on here who shot a G26 exclusively for a year. Check out his thread.

Just free advice...

bc

[tmoore912]

Read this thread: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

The non-bonded GS does not pass the test.



-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

[Sparks2112]

Ill have to check when I get home, honestly I didnt even know the 2 options were available when I placed the order....I dont see how bonded vs unbonded would be a groundbreaking difference though. Packs the same punch from a short distance, right?

One passes the fbi standards and one doesn't. I'd suggest reading the stickies at the top of the ammo forum...