507K ACSS

[G19Fan]

Primary Arms now has the 507K ACSS which is brilliant

3 moa dot only with Vulcan big circle

I was bugging Marshall for years hoping this would get made.

[73Bronco]

Mine arrived yesterday. Haven't installed it yet so nothing to report, but I can't wait to try it out!

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[JackNeat]

I have that mounted on a Girsan Regard (92 clone) using a Trijicon dovetail mount. It's a great dot and can be especially helpful for someone learning the dot - like me ;) Got mine in the green too.

[JCN]

I was hoping for the Chevron!!

[G19Fan]

Mine arrived yesterday. Haven't installed it yet so nothing to report, but I can't wait to try it out!

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

I think you will like it. Have been screwing around with a pre release model and I dig it

[G19Fan]

I was hoping for the Chevron!!

I so dislike that chevron lol

[JCN]

I so dislike that chevron lol

I turn off the big circle because it pulls my attention away.

I’ve trained so hard to “go towards the red” and the big aiming circle is the opposite of that.

Basically if I see red in the window I immediately orient to bring the red to the center with hand and finger adjustment.

That works great with a center based reticle.

But fucks you up with a reticle off the screen.

If you catch glimpse of the corner of the aiming circle with a flash of red, you might adjust the opposite way to bring the corner of the circle to the center of the window before you realize that wasn’t the center reticle.

It slows me down and adds a mental step I don’t want in the presentation and tracking.

It’s like having false dots and having to take the split second to identify the shape of the reticle before orienting.

Philosophically, I would rather have someone orient with the window to slide silhouette and then pick up the dot if they need help with index rather than have an off the window circle.

If they had a multi-color reticle with a blue finding circle and a red center, that would be workable for me.

But I think orienting by slide to window silhouette is more useful of a skill because it comes into play with broken electronics and shattered windows.

[G19Fan]

I turn off the big circle because it pulls my attention away.

I’ve trained so hard to “go towards the red” and the big aiming circle is the opposite of that.

Basically if I see red in the window I immediately orient to bring the red to the center with hand and finger adjustment.

That works great with a center based reticle.

But fucks you up with a reticle off the screen.

If you catch glimpse of the corner of the aiming circle with a flash of red, you might adjust the opposite way to bring the corner of the circle to the center of the window before you realize that wasn’t the center reticle.

It slows me down and adds a mental step I don’t want in the presentation and tracking.

It’s like having false dots and having to take the split second to identify the shape of the reticle before orienting.

Philosophically, I would rather have someone orient with the window to slide silhouette and then pick up the dot if they need help with index rather than have an off the window circle.

If they had a multi-color reticle with a blue finding circle and a red center, that would be workable for me.

But I think orienting by slide to window silhouette is more useful of a skill because it comes into play with broken electronics and shattered windows.

This makes a ton of sense to me. I index based on rear of optic and slide. You are a much better shooter than I but even I can see that the extra red flash would be confusing.

Thar said I think this will work brilliantly for my wife. If it doesn't then I will have 3 units to sell and she will go back to multi reticule (she likes dot and circle to help her pick up)

[JCN]

This makes a ton of sense to me. I index based on rear of optic and slide. You are a much better shooter than I but even I can see that the extra red flash would be confusing.

Thar said I think this will work brilliantly for my wife. If it doesn't then I will have 3 units to sell and she will go back to multi reticule (she likes dot and circle to help her pick up)

I think it could work, especially if you then turn off the circle later.

When I was training my wife for index, I used a gun with defined grip / hand position markers for reproducible grip (thumb safety and weak hand thumb rest). I think that’s important for newer shooters for reproducibility help that helps indexing. That became super clear to me when I started shooting iron sight long guns at speed. It can be a little grip tape or a little stippling. Something tactile.

Then had her dry work a small window dot with the circle dot reticle. I had her do reps on a timer with 1.4 second draw regardless of whether she saw the red. But to work on getting more of the reps where she could see red. This was on a close, large target with the A zone outlined.

Basically the “rules” were:
1. Have to get the shot off within par time (1.4s)
2. Prefer to see red on brown.
3. Keep working to get red more stable on brown.

Then in live fire, I had her shoot a copy of the gun that had a LARGE window and she did great.

This was the fourth live session of training. Each live session was around 50-75 rounds.


https://youtu.be/yJSeTK6v2uU

Then in a few weeks with dry firing a few times a week.


https://youtu.be/nqLF_SjE2_I

The process was that I would check in with her every week or two to ask what she was seeing in dry fire and then adjust her vision or time goals.

[G19Fan]

I think it could work, especially if you then turn off the circle later.

When I was training my wife for index, I used a gun with defined grip / hand position markers for reproducible grip (thumb safety and weak hand thumb rest). I think that’s important for newer shooters for reproducibility help that helps indexing. That became super clear to me when I started shooting iron sight long guns at speed. It can be a little grip tape or a little stippling. Something tactile.

Then had her dry work a small window dot with the circle dot reticle. I had her do reps on a timer with 1.4 second draw regardless of whether she saw the red. But to work on getting more of the reps where she could see red. This was on a close, large target with the A zone outlined.

Basically the “rules” were:
1. Have to get the shot off within par time (1.4s)
2. Prefer to see red on brown.
3. Keep working to get red more stable on brown.

Then in live fire, I had her shoot a copy of the gun that had a LARGE window and she did great.

This was the fourth live session of training. Each live session was around 50-75 rounds.


https://youtu.be/yJSeTK6v2uU

Then in a few weeks with dry firing a few times a week.


https://youtu.be/nqLF_SjE2_I

The process was that I would check in with her every week or two to ask what she was seeing in dry fire and then adjust her vision or time goals.

Great advice. I am going to try this

[JCN]

G19Fan

Let me know if I can help in any way. I’m good with figuring stuff out and I like helping people. I have a thread in the site supporter only area where I’m helping anyone with questions and designing drills for them.

One of my other beliefs is that it takes longitudinal training for strength and speed of handgun muscles, especially for people not used to using those specific muscles.

So I made sure to have my wife train with one of the heaviest guns I own and with a weighted mag in dry.

That way she’s “weight lifting” with guns to build up in dry.

I’m NOT a believer in having to only train with what you carry. Sure, manual of arms differences are a thing. Especially under stress. But for pure skill building, it’s okay to use weighted bats and softballs to train….

[G19Fan]

G19Fan

Let me know if I can help in any way. I’m good with figuring stuff out and I like helping people. I have a thread in the site supporter only area where I’m helping anyone with questions and designing drills for them.

One of my other beliefs is that it takes longitudinal training for strength and speed of handgun muscles, especially for people not used to using those specific muscles.

So I made sure to have my wife train with one of the heaviest guns I own and with a weighted mag in dry.

That way she’s “weight lifting” with guns to build up in dry.

I’m NOT a believer in having to only train with what you carry. Sure, manual of arms differences are a thing. Especially under stress. But for pure skill building, it’s okay to use weighted bats and softballs to train….

This makes sense too we tend to train and shoot only what we carry (my wife really only likes cz p01 and p365 series). I used to be pure g19 but now that I am xl macro you can't drag me back lol.

I agree with you about the strength portion. I love exercse (weight, pilates, yoga and grappling) should run and swim more. My wife has always been accurate but recpil managent and punch out speed have gotten much better when she is good about working out.

Interesting idea on heavy gun. Like doing functional front shoulder lifts

[JCN]

This makes sense too we tend to train and shoot only what we carry (my wife really only likes cz p01 and p365 series). I used to be pure g19 but now that I am xl macro you can't drag me back lol.

I agree with you about the strength portion. I love exercse (weight, pilates, yoga and grappling) should run and swim more. My wife has always been accurate but recpil managent and punch out speed have gotten much better when she is good about working out.

Interesting idea on heavy gun. Like doing functional front shoulder lifts

You should sign up for site supporter status and join the thread. It's literally a recoil management thread. You can ask things on your wife's behalf.

Also punch out speed is usually confounded by "vision confirmation of target" so try and separate out the two. When I test maximum index speed, I make sure it's minimum visual confirmation speed. Sometimes for newer shooters I take the vision completely out of it by giving them a crazy time par and a humongous target.


https://youtu.be/r5CSFWQ8fUg

[G19Fan]

You should sign up for site supporter status and join the thread. It's literally a recoil management thread. You can ask things on your wife's behalf.

Also punch out speed is usually confounded by "vision confirmation of target" so try and separate out the two. When I test maximum index speed, I make sure it's minimum visual confirmation speed. Sometimes for newer shooters I take the vision completely out of it by giving them a crazy time par and a humongous target.


https://youtu.be/r5CSFWQ8fUg

How can I join site supporter?

Your shooting videos always make me laugh some fo them are ridiculous

[Wake27]

I so dislike that chevron lol

Regardless of the outer circle, I love the chevron, it’s so much more accurate for me.


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[RennBaer]

I bought one to gift to my father to use on his carry gun. He recognizes all of the advantages an optic has over iron sights which lead him to make the switch to a non-ACSS 507K on his carry gun, but I don't think he trains as much as someone probably should to be 100% proficient with an optic. That's where I think the ACSS could be helpful, especially on the much smaller window of the 507K. We'll see if he finds it advantageous. It's easy enough to turn off the outer ring and use the dot only when and if needed.

[G19Fan]

I bought one to gift to my father to use on his carry gun. He recognizes all of the advantages an optic has over iron sights which lead him to make the switch to a non-ACSS 507K on his carry gun, but I don't think he trains as much as someone probably should to be 100% proficient with an optic. That's where I think the ACSS could be helpful, especially on the much smaller window of the 507K. We'll see if he finds it advantageous. It's easy enough to turn off the outer ring and use the dot only when and if needed.

Yup exactly. My wife likes shooting but isn't as junkie about it

[G19Fan]

Regardless of the outer circle, I love the chevron, it’s so much more accurate for me.


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It is so interesting to me how eyes work. This was shot using a 2 moa (my preferred) @ 25 untimed offhand

https://imgur.io/a/s8kqvbv

I am way worse with the chevron despite in theory the tip should be more precise vs a 2 moa dot. A lot of my friends love the chevron

Gun is zeroed with 124 hst shot using 115 tula steel

[JCN]

Site supporter status on the “support PF” link:

https://pistol-forum.com/payments.php




It is so interesting to me how eyes work. This was shot using a 2 moa (my preferred) @ 25 untimed offhand

https://imgur.io/a/s8kqvbv

I am way worse with the chevron despite in theory the tip should be more precise vs a 2 moa dot. A lot of my friends love the chevron

Gun is zeroed with 124 hst shot using 115 tula steel

I KNEW that the picture was going to be a B8 before I opened it up lol.

This is like when Karl Rehn thought P365 SAS sights were inaccurate because a student couldn’t shoot a B8 well with it.

Well duh, that’s like the worst type of target to try and shoot with that sight because the slide blocks out the entire target and you have to float on float. :D

When I used a target that was appropriate to the sight I got this:

98203

98206

Try repeating the accuracy test on a blank sheet of paper with a 1” red square on it at 25 yards and see how the chevron fares against the dot.

The nice thing about the chevron at distance is when it’s a small target, you don’t blot out the target with the reticle. That’s less likely to happen with a small MOA dot but then you lose the benefits of a larger reticle up close.

All that being said, I usually default to a 6MOA circle as my preferred gaming optic due to the nature of the target size and construction.

[G19Fan]

Site supporter status on the “support PF” link:

https://pistol-forum.com/payments.php





I KNEW that the picture was going to be a B8 before I opened it up lol.

This is like when Karl Rehn thought P365 SAS sights were inaccurate because a student couldn’t shoot a B8 well with it.

Well duh, that’s like the worst type of target to try and shoot with that sight because the slide blocks out the entire target and you have to float on float. :D

When I used a target that was appropriate to the sight I got this:

98203

98206

Try repeating the accuracy test on a blank sheet of paper with a 1” red square on it at 25 yards and see how the chevron fares against the dot.

The nice thing about the chevron at distance is when it’s a small target, you don’t blot out the target with the reticle. That’s less likely to happen with a small MOA dot but then you lose the benefits of a larger reticle up close.

All that being said, I usually default to a 6MOA circle as my preferred gaming optic due to the nature of the target size and construction.

Ha that is interesting on target type vs chevron. Noted and shall attempt once I track one down.

Site Supporter activated!

[Wake27]

It is so interesting to me how eyes work. This was shot using a 2 moa (my preferred) @ 25 untimed offhand

https://imgur.io/a/s8kqvbv

I am way worse with the chevron despite in theory the tip should be more precise vs a 2 moa dot. A lot of my friends love the chevron

Gun is zeroed with 124 hst shot using 115 tula steel



The nice thing about the chevron at distance is when it’s a small target, you don’t blot out the target with the reticle. That’s less likely to happen with a small MOA dot but then you lose the benefits of a larger reticle up close.

For me, even at close distances, I tend to hit low on SAF because I put the dot under my desired POA so I can see what I actually want to aim at. Its not a noticeable problem for me when shooting faster tempo but if I’m really trying to be deliberate and precise, I hold low. I’ve realized it for a while and when I force myself to, I train to raise the gun up and then pull the trigger. This works but it’s basically correcting a bad habit so it takes a lot of repeated effort and my gun time has been lacking for years now so I’m definitely not there yet.

I don’t have this issue with the chevron, I put the tip where I want the round to go whether it’s SAF or a mag dump and it just works for me. Training scar, bad habit, subconscious aiming fault, whatever we want to call it - the chevron is legitimately hardware fixing my software and while I may not be addressing the underlying problem, it seems to work pretty well for me.


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[G19Fan]

For me, even at close distances, I tend to hit low on SAF because I put the dot under my desired POA so I can see what I actually want to aim at. Its not a noticeable problem for me when shooting faster tempo but if I’m really trying to be deliberate and precise, I hold low. I’ve realized it for a while and when I force myself to, I train to raise the gun up and then pull the trigger. This works but it’s basically correcting a bad habit so it takes a lot of repeated effort and my gun time has been lacking for years now so I’m definitely not there yet.

I don’t have this issue with the chevron, I put the tip where I want the round to go whether it’s SAF or a mag dump and it just works for me. Training scar, bad habit, subconscious aiming fault, whatever we want to call it - the chevron is legitimately hardware fixing my software and while I may not be addressing the underlying problem, it seems to work pretty well for me.


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This explanation makes a lot of sense. I am almost the opposite I feel. I try to make the chevron too precise and end up overhanging it (def also a software issue)

With a 2 moa or 3 moa dot I know my wobble zone

[JCN]

This explanation makes a lot of sense. I am almost the opposite I feel. I try to make the chevron too precise and end up overhanging it (def also a software issue)

With a 2 moa or 3 moa dot I know my wobble zone

With round targets a circle dot also has an auto ranging wobble function too.

With a 6MOA dot it fills USPSA and steel challenge steel and round targets well with 4 MOA of extra safety in calling the shots.

With a 2 MOA dot, it’s easier to call a bad shot good at speed if that makes sense.

[G19Fan]

With round targets a circle dot also has an auto ranging wobble function too.

With a 6MOA dot it fills USPSA and steel challenge steel and round targets well with 4 MOA of extra safety in calling the shots.

With a 2 MOA dot, it’s easier to call a bad shot good at speed if that makes sense.

Yes this make sense on bad shot good at speed

[JCN]

Yes this make sense on bad shot good at speed

Here’s a graphic I made with my daughter’s colored pencils haha

98384

I can run the edge of a 6MOA dot to a target edge and still have 4 MOA margin of safety.

But if run the edge of a 2MOA dot to a target edge the margin gets pretty small and at speed that can lead to optimistic over calls.

[G19Fan]

Here’s a graphic I made with my daughter’s colored pencils haha

98384

I can run the edge of a 6MOA dot to a target edge and still have 4 MOA margin of safety.

But if run the edge of a 2MOA dot to a target edge the margin gets pretty small and at speed that can lead to optimistic over calls.

This makes a surprising amount of sense

Stuoid question. I zero offhand at 25. When you zero 6 moa do you use top of dot or center?

[JCN]

This makes a surprising amount of sense

Stuoid question. I zero offhand at 25. When you zero 6 moa do you use top of dot or center?

You know I try and put some practical thought into equipment and decisions. It mainly comes from trying a bunch of shit and noticing that some stuff doesn’t work as well for me and then figuring out why that was the case.

This revelation came about with the huge DPP triangle that I was soooo slow with. Because I was trying to hold the whole fucking triangle inside small targets and it caused me to overconfirm. I don’t need that many MOA of margin hahaha. Then I tried the opposite with a tiny dot and was calling bad shots good.

The ACSS chevron is better than the DPP triangle for me because I can see the target through the chevron and not so much through the DPP.

For the zero, I think the official stance is that anything is fine. Lots of different acceptable ways to do it.

For me, I get a little nerdy with it.

My answer for myself is:
Depends on what game.
For black B8s at 25 yards, I zero for dead center of the red dot at 25 yards.

For USPSA gaming, it’ll depend on my ammo. I want something fairly flat-ish out to 50 yards. With 150gr Syntech out of a 5” barrel at 850 fps or so, I’ll usually put POI just above the rim of a 6 MOA dot so I can see the target.

That usually puts it dead on for what I need 10-15 yards where a lot of the partials live on course.

7 yards and in it’ll be around bottom edge of dot or just under.




So the long answer is that it doesn’t really matter, but it depends on what game I’m maximizing. That’s one of the reasons I think scoring on B8 is a little silly.

I’d rather just judge group size rather than scoring. Because the scoring is dependent on things that are B8 specific like contrast of sights, ammo POI, red dot size, etc.

But the game is the game.

[G19Fan]

You know I try and put some practical thought into equipment and decisions. It mainly comes from trying a bunch of shit and noticing that some stuff doesn’t work as well for me and then figuring out why that was the case.

This revelation came about with the huge DPP triangle that I was soooo slow with. Because I was trying to hold the whole fucking triangle inside small targets and it caused me to overconfirm. I don’t need that many MOA of margin hahaha. Then I tried the opposite with a tiny dot and was calling bad shots good.

The ACSS chevron is better than the DPP triangle for me because I can see the target through the chevron and not so much through the DPP.

For the zero, I think the official stance is that anything is fine. Lots of different acceptable ways to do it.

For me, I get a little nerdy with it.

My answer for myself is:
Depends on what game.
For black B8s at 25 yards, I zero for dead center of the red dot at 25 yards.

For USPSA gaming, it’ll depend on my ammo. I want something fairly flat-ish out to 50 yards. With 150gr Syntech out of a 5” barrel at 850 fps or so, I’ll usually put POI just above the rim of a 6 MOA dot so I can see the target.

That usually puts it dead on for what I need 10-15 yards where a lot of the partials live on course.

7 yards and in it’ll be around bottom edge of dot or just under.




So the long answer is that it doesn’t really matter, but it depends on what game I’m maximizing. That’s one of the reasons I think scoring on B8 is a little silly.

I’d rather just judge group size rather than scoring. Because the scoring is dependent on things that are B8 specific like contrast of sights, ammo POI, red dot size, etc.

But the game is the game.

I dig it.

I should try the giant circle and dot vs 2 moa dot at speed

[JCN]

I dig it.

I should try the giant circle and dot vs 2 moa dot at speed

The 32 MOA 507c circle dot is awesome for super fast work close up.

Just note when you try it, you have to play around with the target size and distance and the speed has to be super speed.

[G19Fan]

The 32 MOA 507c circle dot is awesome for super fast work close up.

Just note when you try it, you have to play around with the target size and distance and the speed has to be super speed.


Makes sense and thanks!

[mastiffkb]

Wish that Primary Arms would come out with the ACSS circle and a 32 moa circle vs a dot.

Place the 32 moa circle over what you want hit and you can still see through the circle to the target.

[RennBaer]

I decided to pick up a 507K ACSS to put on one of my carry guns. I'll take any advantage that I can when it comes to finding the dot when presenting from unconventional positions, and in lieu of a larger window, the 230 MOA ring seems like a good idea. Who knows what weird position you might find yourself in if you ever need to draw your CCW, and the smaller pistol optics are less forgiving of a less-than-perfect presentation. Plus, it's easy enough to turn the giant ring off if you decide you don't need it.