Massad Ayoob: The necessity of high capacity magazines.

[Amp]

0:00 - How important is capacity?
2:00 - Multiple, Skilled Invaders
3:45 - Bad Guys on Drugs
5:30 - 10 Round Magazine Limits
6:25 - Carry Enough Ammunition


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XJzxpn2vuA

[RJ]

Useful video.

[JohnO]

Hopefully NYSRPA v. Bruen will remedy the 10 round limit unconstitutional laws.

[FrankB]

They’re selling new pistols. Massad mentioned flash mobs. Well, Kyle Rittenhouse fought off a mob with 4 shots. I’m not a law enforcement officer looking for trouble. Revolvers have kept me safe for the past few years, and I’ve weened myself down to one “just in case”Glock 19. Former Navy SEAL Shawn Ryan was sitting around with a bunch of other SEALS, and they all carried Glock 43 pistols a few years ago. Ryan had a Delta operator on his show last night, and his EDC is a Glock 43X. There was some mention of shot placement…..

P.S. I believe in carrying as many rounds as you like. 😉

[CraigS]

Guntalk's Tom Gresham said it this way several years ago. Average home invasion is 3 bad guys. Average # rounds to stop a bad guy is three so you need 9. But average hit ratio of police is 50% so you really need 18. So our HD Beretta 92s all have 20 rnd MecGars. My and my wife's EDCs carry 15rnds in the gun and the spare is a 17.

[SwampDweller]

With pistols I only start to get the warm fuzzies with capacity if it starts at least at 12+1, particularly in something like a USP 45, or 13+1 in a G21. For inside the home, it’s a carbine or shotgun if I can get to it, but I don’t feel underarmed with a G21 or USP.

If I lived somewhere where I could only have 10 rounds, in a pistol I’d like them to be as big of rounds as reasonably possible so I’d probably get 10 rounders for a USP 45 and drive on (or do they have reliability issues like Glock ban compliant mags do? Seriously interested in this question, not to change the subject), just make sure to have an extra reload or two more than normal.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My take, expressed many times, is that you cannot just plan for the average. You have to plan for the small number of more extreme incidents that can and have happened. Many folks focus on the one or two opponent gun fight. Yes, that is modal fight but not the only fight. We have enough horror show examples were more rounds would have been helpful. In my life, twice it looked like 4 bad guys. Could I fight 4 bad guys - who knows but just 5 rounds in my J isn't comforting (carry a J when constrained!). At my best, we had 3 targets, draw and hit with two shots. With a 1911 from the draw - about 3.75 ish seconds with good COM hits. Might that discourage 4 killed exiting their car - it might. Be nice to have some ammo left in the gun.

Second, this is political. If I were a gun banner, I would pick up this constant 3,3,3 mantra and say that's why we need magazine and capacity bans. More rounds are only used by murderous killers. I would quote all the 'SMEs' who carry a revolver and say that's all you need to promote a ban on semis. Did someone just say that? Did Oregon add to the list of mag bans (Not doing so well in the courts!!! Yay!).

In an institution where I worked, the risk was probably not the single mugger, but the maniacally rampager or two. The longest shots in a large room where quite more than 3 and the long halls were 100 yards. One place allowed carry , one did not.

Thus, I don't buy into if I have a belt gun, preferred, having a limited number of rounds or denying things can be more intense than the modal figures. Those are actually NO SHOTS FiRED. I EDC a Glock 26 and an extra mag or two. Knowing Tom, Mas, Karl, Spaulding, etc. I think the 10 round and a mag is the minimum optimal (ban state).

People carry the smaller guns for convenience and comfort then comfort their psyche with 3,3,3 and shot placement. Note I fired a G42 with 42 As and 2 or three Cs in a recent match, so placement isn't an issue (unless I am scared shitless and stressed out).

If we weren't a ban state - I might move up to a G19 (sold mine as redundant in a ban state and my G17s are for the games).

Hi - I'm Joe Biden. Navy Seals suggest you need less than 10 shots and focus on shot placement. That's why I want to ban semi automatic handguns and only allow revolvers IF you take mandatory courses to guarantee your shot placement. However, you can't carry them unless a business opts in and can't carry in sensitive places (Scalia said so!). We banned assault weapons under my previous watch and a recent president banned bump stocks. NO malarkey, get on the Biden Ban Wagon!

[FrankB]

Hopefully NYSRPA v. Bruen will remedy the 10 round limit unconstitutional laws.

While I said earlier that I carry revolvers, I don’t see what a 10 round limit is supposed to accomplish. Ten rounds is safe, but and 11 round magazine is more deadly? The antigun crowd would be comedic, if they weren’t in power.

ETA Glenn E. Meyer I own J frame revolvers, but once I started carry snubnose 6 round revolvers, the J frames make me feel under gunned. They rest in my safe now….

[BillSWPA]

Consider the need to control one or more young children with 1 hand while running the gun with 1 hand. Reloading that gun with 1 hand is much slower.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JohnO]

My take, expressed many times, is that you cannot just plan for the average. You have to plan for the small number of more extreme incidents that can and have happened.

There is no such thing as an average gunfight when you are involved in it!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I guess I'm a compromise. When I pocket carry a J frame, it is one of those few SW 432 J frames with 6 shots. Tamara has one and few other folks do. I bought it when SW dumped them, when they were discontinued. The gun show had quite a few for $335. I should have bought two but was sending my kid through college.

As mentioned other times, I also have a SW 632 3 inch, hammered, comped, fiber optics revolver. If my Biden Ban went into effect that would be my EDC belt gun. I found the SW 19 just a touch bigger for my stubby little hands and a 686 was also. I've also mentioned that when I let loose a full power 327 mag as an outlaw gun in a match, the SO thought I blew up as did the spectators. You felt that in your palm. It sits, locked up waiting for it's times.

I might sound like a capacity zealot, but I worry more about the nut than the mugger where I live and work. Only a few miles from the Buffalo Tops. Some of my places of attendance have received credible FBI warnings (which didn't make the national news but we got emails).

I'm going to shoot my 642 in our next carry match. Can't shoot the 32s as USPSA has some religious ban on the smaller calibers. Reading a debate about why they don't have a 22 division was mind numbing.

[FrankB]

Consider the need to control one or more young children with 1 hand while running the gun with 1 hand. Reloading that gun with 1 hand is much slower.


I should have mentioned that my wife always has a Glock 19 in her purse, and next to her (in a holster) at home. So I get a free 15 round reload most of the time. lol

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There is no such thing as an average gunfight when you are involved in it!

Amen!

I taught statistics for many years and risk, distributions, outliers were always part of it. That's why I seize up on the 3,3,3 and posted that the recent old farts chortling about the possible vs the probable was absolute BS.

That one handed problem is sensible! Years ago, I broke my wrist. I was signed up for an gun class with Karl Rehn and Mas' Stressfire. I took them with my non dominant hand and other in cast/brace. It was interesting. Carried my G19 on the nondominant side till I healed. Interesting, when my hand came out the case, I will it to move and it did nothing. Off to rehab. It came back but still gives me aches.

[Duces Tecum]

They’re selling new pistols. Massad mentioned flash mobs. Well, Kyle Rittenhouse fought off a mob with 4 shots. I’m not a law enforcement officer looking for trouble. Revolvers have kept me safe for the past few years, and I’ve weened myself down to one “just in case”Glock 19. Former Navy SEAL Shawn Ryan was sitting around with a bunch of other SEALS, and they all carried Glock 43 pistols a few years ago. Ryan had a Delta operator on his show last night, and his EDC is a Glock 43X. There was some mention of shot placement…..

P.S. I believe in carrying as many rounds as you like. 😉

Please understand that I'm not picking on you, Frank, I'm only seeking clarification. In "the past few years" how many times have you had to employ the "revolvers that have kept (you) safe" in a defensive situation? And under what conditions? Knowing that may assist in evaluating the concept that six (or possibly 5) rounds is sufficient to repel boarders.

As a sidebar, I'm not now and have never been a Special Operations guy. I don't know, but it's possible that Shawn Ryan and his collegues possessed concealed weapons they didn't display. In any event, I presume that those men have acquired skill sets that I can only admire from afar. So the reference to SEALS doesn't just resonate with me.

Cordially,
Duces

[FrankB]

Please understand that I'm not picking on you, Frank, I'm only seeking clarification. In "the past few years" how many times have you had to employ the "revolvers that have kept (you) safe" in a defensive situation? And under what conditions? Knowing that may assist in evaluating the concept that six (or possibly 5) rounds is sufficient to repel boarders.

As a sidebar, I'm not now and have never been a Special Operations guy. I don't know, but it's possible that Shawn Ryan and his collegues possessed concealed weapons they didn't display. In any event, I presume that those men have acquired skill sets that I can only admire from afar. So the reference to SEALS doesn't just resonate with me.

Cordially,
Duces

Hi Deuces,
I don’t want to answer that question here, but I’ve never shot anyone. I should add that I’m 6’2”, and still in physically good condition. Would that ward off one of Glenn’s lunatics? Probably not. Trust me when I say that 4 years ago, I owned at least 30, 15 rounds pistols. I just don’t feel the need to carry that much firepower now. I like shiny revolvers, so that’s what I carry. Shawn Ryan had a Delta guy on last night, and like so many of his guests, he emphasized avoidance and evasion. I’ve seen all of the door bell camera, surveillance video self defense stuff on the internet, and have never seen a citizen mag dump ANY number of bad guys.

I like the Wilson Combat guys, and I’m subscribed to the channel. It is a business, and the Bill Drill still involves getting 6 rounds on target.

[Leroy Suggs]

"Multiple skilled invaders". Your ass is cooked.I don't care how many rounds you have.
Some situations you can't win.

Like someone, somewhere said, "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets."

[LockedBreech]

I don't put too much thought into it, but I will say I do much prefer my modern capacities (Shield Plus 9mm at 12+1 with 12 reload, LCP Max at 10+1 with 12 reload) to what I used to carry (G43 or Shield at 6 or 7 +1 with 7 reload, LCP with 6+1 with 6 reload). Emergencies happen fast and I'd prefer not to worry about counting.

However, in my years of paying attention to defensive gun uses in the news and in my professional capacity, it does seem like the vast majority of situations a J-frame you can shoot well would be perfectly adequate.

While it's an interesting conversation to have ad infinitum (that's why we have it ad infinitum) the oldest and truest wisdom is that someone with a 5-shot J-frame they shoot like an expert is likely better prepared than someone with twice the capacity but half the training.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Sure, if the injustice League attacks, I'm screwed. However, two rampaging nuts is not unknown in several instances. Having a few more rounds would be nice. Cars with 4 racists used to patrol Portland, Oregon looking for minorities. Just give up? Just want one shot each?

[FrankB]

This looney went down with two shots. I love that channel.


https://youtu.be/85V8vX6ZumU

P.S. Glenn E. Meyers
I’m not advocating that anyone on Earth carry a limited number of rounds, even though 15 is still a limiting factor.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I know but certainly the antigunners are proposing that. The 10 round ban is popular. NYS dodged the 7 round ban. I'm surprised the antigunners haven't proposed a ban on carrying extra mags or reloads. 3,3,3 for you and me! Show me a case where an upstanding citizen has had to reload!

The good guys at Trolley Mall and the Kenya shopping center, all commented that they realized not having extra ammo was a mistake. That sort of incident is possible and probable (the p value isn't high but its not zero)/

[JonInWA]

Guys, I'm a tad skeptical here. Let's see, we're starting off with Mas modeling and advertising the latest Wilson high-capacity pistol, wearing a Wilson Combat logo'd outfit. Not that Mas is a bad guy, or Wilson makes bad guns-quite the opposite in both cases, but here I think we need to contextualize a bit.

As a former reserve LEO, and presumably still with organizational and industry connections and research resources, it would have been nice if Ayoob had provided some more statistical back up for the assertations made, such as multiple assailant crimes and assaults, body armored assailants, tactically astute assailants, and events requiring high round counts for resolution (and that's assuming the rounds were in fact impacting on the assailant).

I have, use, enjoy and appreciate pistols that have magazines with a higher capacity than 10 rounds. But I've also asserted, and continue to assert that capacity per se is one of my lowest criteria for platform selection in most circumstances, other than having to charge Hill 301 with a dedicated infantry outfit (and artillery and air support assets on call). I'm much more critically concerned with how well I index with, shoot with, and the inherent ergonomic features of a platform.

In my opinion, based on my personal and anecdotal experience the key difference between a magazine-fed semiautomatic pistol and a revolver has less to do with capacity than with the ability to perform fast and effective reloads when necessary under stressful situations inhibiting control and movement.

I'm not pleased with most of the non-logic fueling anti-gun and anti-gun/restrictive gun stances. In many, if not most cases it's fueled by emotionalism as opposed to logic and facts, and it has the effect of more likely penalizing the "good guy" as opposed to the feral criminal elements.

I don't feel underarmed with a 7 or 8 shot 1911, particularly with backup magazines. I don't feel underarmed with a 10 shot .40 High Power, with backup magazines. I don't feel underarmed with my Glock G17, G19, G21, G22 with 120 round magazines (provided they're credible, vetted 10 round magazines, which means Magpul 10 rounders for the G17 and G19). I frankly prefer the 13 round magazines for my G21, primarily because they're easier to load and reload into a G21 in battery that it is with the Glock 10 rounders.

Another field worthy of exploration is the effect of higher capacity magazines inducing higher shot expenditures-especially if there's a training deficiency either individually or organizationally. Collateral damage isn't just a cute term.

I'll also suggest that a primary advantage of backup/reload magazines is to 1) provide continued credible performance in the event of a weapon malfunction necessitating stripping out the initial magazine, 2) to provide a continued renewed source of ammunition after a situation is resolved with a partial (or full) expenditure of ammunition in the initial magazine, and 3) to provide a continued source of fresh ammunition in the event of ammunition expenditure with the initial magazine-and pretty much in that order for what I suspect is the vast majority of gun use scenarios, buttressed by continued FBI reporting of most situations being resolved by 3-5 round ammunition expenditures over decades of study. That study also would seemingly suggest that there's limited use for high capacity magazines for many users/situations.

I'll freely admit that when hunting or in the wilderness I prefer a high capacity platform-in my case likely a G21 or G22 with Underwood Lehigh cartridges in the event of a charging bear, etc. And, if we assume or take the position that the real purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to provide citizen response to constitutionally inappropriate governmental or alien incursions into citizen's rights, when utilized in a military context high capacity magazines make eminent sense. But thast's probably not what most of us are dealing with on a daily duty or EDC usage.

What has really resonated with me over the last several, if not longer years is Darryl Bolke's seminal discussion of the purpose and advantages of the LEM/DAO action for organizational and individual use, particularly if there's a threat management component incorporated into a gun use scenario-as well as the ability to get off a trigger when the split-second determination is made that firing is neither appropriate or desirable. I believe in that discussion Darryl asserted that if he was back on Patrol his likely firearm of choice would be the HK45 with LEM-and that's a 10 round magazine capacity platform. It really emphasized to me that a, if not the key factor in most firearm situations is control as opposed to capacity per se.

I appreciate a good, measured, factually fueled discussion of these things. This video simply doesn't provide such, and I expect more out of someone positioning themselves or perceived as a subject matter expert

Best, Jon

[Clusterfrack]

"Multiple skilled invaders". Your ass is cooked.I don't care how many rounds you have.
Some situations you can't win.

Like someone, somewhere said, "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets."

I don't want to be the exception to that rule. Of course, if bad guys with SEAL Team skills break into my house, I'm fucked. But I want to push back against this argument. I've been in situations where I wanted more than 10 rounds in my gun.

Like many here, I've worked hard to build solid pistol shooting skills. We know that stopping a threat with handgun ballistics often requires multiple hits. That's one reason we practice pairs or Bill drills. Mags get empty fast when you shoot 2, 3, ... 6 at one target.



...I don't think we should debate whether 10+1 is enough, but here are my thoughts: Everyone should make their own decision about the appropriate defensive solution. Most of the time, I carry 15+1, without :eek: a reload. Sometimes I carry 6+1 with a reload. And sometimes I carry 17+1 with two reloads. --All based on risk assessment and what I'm able to conceal and carry comfortably.

A couple of years ago I was carrying a G43 with a reload, and three carloads of tweakers arrived at my family's backcountry picnic site and blocked our vehicle while they searched for their lost "stuff". I spent a few very tense minutes with my hand under my jacket telling them to leave. It did occur to me that I might not be sufficiently armed.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

body armored assailants

The Buffalo Tops shooter, a few miles from me, had body armor and thus was not taken down by the ex-law officer security guard. So it happens, is it modal? No. But that's the point, you don't just train or carry to exclusion on the modal event.

We debated an almost automatic "Mozambique" response awhile ago, given the games don't really go that way. However, SMEs have said if you suspect body armor, go for the head. That's exciting with a 6 shot gun, esp. if there are two assailants. I assume none of us will miss?

As far as revolver vs. semi reloads, the former is slow without intense training and modified guns. That's been shown. When I shot my 642, the gamers were all about how I should modified it for moon clips and carry such. Game gear was not for a pocket gun, trying to be low profile with a speed strip. That's for dress constraints and understanding its limits.

I think that for belt carry, 10 or more and an extra mag or two is easy and while not modally oriented is oriented BUT oriented towards a reasonable cut off in the incident intensity distribution. It's just good old stat theory of critical levels.

[Le Français]

Please understand that I'm not picking on you, Frank, I'm only seeking clarification. In "the past few years" how many times have you had to employ the "revolvers that have kept (you) safe" in a defensive situation? And under what conditions? Knowing that may assist in evaluating the concept that six (or possibly 5) rounds is sufficient to repel boarders.

This is right on. It’s easy to talk about how such-and-such a gun has kept you safe, when it has done absolutely no such thing.

Supergluing your ass to the seat of your truck instead of wearing your seatbelt doesn’t mean that the glue kept you safe if you were never in a crash.

I’m weighing the likelihood of an HR complaint if I start carrying a 33-rounder down the front of my pants.

[blues]

FrankB

I seem to recall your having some vacillation on the revolver vs. semi-auto pistol front over the past couple of years...where you were selling, not selling, and choosing or un-choosing sides. That's my recollection, anyway.

Personally, I let where I plan to travel to help me make a decision. Home and walking around distances...my 642 is my carry of choice.

Going to town or further abroad...a G26 with a reload carries the day.

If I really felt I needed to be prepared for something imminent, (which as a retired guy I'm not expecting), I'd upgrade as required...both in size, ability and capacity.

Most days, I'm comfortable walking around my environs with a J. At the supermarket, gas station or elsewhere where more people come into play, I prefer to take that into account.

[Le Français]

get 10 rounders for a USP 45 and drive on (or do they have reliability issues like Glock ban compliant mags do? Seriously interested in this question, not to change the subject).

HK 10-rounders are good to go in my limited experience.

[FrankB]

This is right on. It’s easy to talk about how such-and-such a gun has kept you safe, when it has done absolutely no such thing.
.

I should have clarified my “kept me safe” comment. I’ve carried revolvers (it’s almost never one) 99.99% of the time for 3 years, and I’m still alive. Kind of like saying the exterior door and lock on my bedroom keeps me safe at night. It hasn’t been tested yet, but it does help me to sleep better than the $19 cardboard doors that most houses have.

blues You are 100% correct, sir! This decision wasn’t made lightly.

[Amp]

J frame only in my pocket while at home, cutting the grass, walking in the neighborhood.

When I go to town I carry my 5" 1911 .45 and a couple of reloads.

We just had an armed robbery of a convenience store in my area, 4 bad guys with long guns came in and put everyone (staff and customers) on the ground and robbed them. Thankfully they left and didn't hurt anyone.

[Le Français]

I should have clarified my “kept me safe” comment. I’ve carried revolvers (it’s almost never one) 99.99% of the time for 3 years, and I’m still alive. Kind of like saying the exterior door and lock on my bedroom keeps me safe at night. It hasn’t been tested yet, but it does help me to sleep better than the $19 cardboard doors that most houses have.

“It does help me to sleep better” is absolutely a valid reason to do things. I would just point out that when the balloon goes up, how we feel about what we’re packing is of little use.

[FrankB]

“It does help me to sleep better” is absolutely a valid reason to do things. I would just point out that when the balloon goes up, how we feel about what we’re packing is of little use.

I’d agree with that, but my mindset has changed with 12 rounds ready. At a gas station, I have one hand on a revolver that’s in my front pocket, and I’m always scanning. We have a legitimate full service convenience stores in PA (WaWa), and I’m always ready to drop what’s in my hands, and draw form my left or right side. I actually visualize these scenarios when visiting these places. I do not go to 7-11 stores. In addition to the exterior bedroom door, there’s a AR within two feet of my bed, along with a 4” revolver and an 8 round Mossberg 590. Lights are kept on downstairs, and the bedroom has three sets of decorative low light nightlights. Yes, we sleep with nightlights. lol!

Here’s another real life “shootout” with retired police captain Ersie Joyner. He was rushed by 3 savages, but waited for his chance. While standing next to his his car and behind a gas pump, Joyner successfully smoked a fool, and won the fight. However, rather than remaining behind cover, Joyner moved into the open and was shot. I have the greatest respect for Joyner’s decision to wait for his turn, but it would appear that his police mindset kicked in when he exposed his vestless self to the other two scumbags.


https://youtu.be/cgKcEp3lTC4

[BillSWPA]

As much as I support carrying more ammo and detest capacity limits, the vast majority of the time I carry a 9mm with a 10 round magazine and 1-2 spare 10 round magazines. This is what works best for my normal clothing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vcdgrips]

Ramble follows

When folks cite to what former SEALS/DELTA/SF etc guys do and carry I would humbly ask you to ask yourself

1. Do you shoot as well as a former SF operator based on head to head comp/comparisons
2. Have you ever shot as much as a former SF Operator ( thousand of round a week, weeks in a row, for years etc)
3. Are you as fit as a former SF Operator
4. Can you perform a given task in a life and death environment to the same standard …
5. Do you have the mindset of a….

IN broad strokes, the answer tends to be NO so what they do and what we do might be two different things re “need” for capacity, ability to place a shot under stress after having done so a few times in the past etc.


In broad strokes-It is simply not that hard to dress around a G19 sized weapon and 1 reload for most folks most of the time or whatever platform you demonstrably shoot the best given the performance you have done with a timer etc.


I get it if you work in a social NPE such that a G42 is all you can get away with relative to your employment etc.

For every one of those folks, there are many who are too lazy and/or cheap and/or poor decision makers who continue to refuse to buy a purpose made belt, mate it to a purpose made holster and get some training.

The vast majority of guys I know that are 5 shot j frame/pocket pistol folks have BTDT…. A lot. They still exude a decided DNFWM air, are poly lingual/cross cultural code switchers and still can bench press 150 % of their body weight. Look in the mirror-is that you?

Tom Givens said it best years ago in a class- to paraphrase- an 8 shot 1911 is a two bad guy gun. Unfortunately, we finds ourselves living in at least a 3 bad guy world.

Working from home with an AIWB G17/RDS and 16 rds of Speer Gold Dot 124+p.

YMMV Greatly

Blessings to you and yours in this time.

[DanTheWolfman]

More important for none LE is enough in gun
To solve situation rather than reloads and total amount

At work now 50 for primary always 13 micro9 backup
Offside front pocket.

Not at work. 14 in gun recently switched being too lazy w shield plus, & starting to think 9 in gun of .45 not enough. So now 14 in gun as long as starts w a .4 because VASTLY more Tissue Crush dispensed in shorter time frame!

Usually backup mag. Always backup gun. 27 or 40 rounds not at work.

The times I've needed to put hand on grip or defensively display....half have been multiple would be. The one time I was carrying a 7shot revolver back from range on fumes at gas station it was 5 would be car jackers. Lcp was my offside BUG back then. Less awareness 2 seconds later might have gone badly for me.

1 of the solo guy stories was AK Pistol blocking my exit dropping friend off at apartment.

[DanTheWolfman]

Nypd mean avg 8 shots fired only 1.6 hits. So many 12-18 rounds dumps since some 1 shot fired are psychological stops.

Tom Given's instructors a good amount fired 8-11 shots. Belive one might have fired 12 can anyone confirm?

There are 4 vids in ASP I like to refer to.

My favorite gun/outdoor store 2 BGs 11 shots needed 4-5 transitions passing out servings about 8 second gunfight.

Pot store new guard vs 4 you all have seen. Was new Guard forced to have 10+1 in his G19 do to Komifornication?

Can't find it easy but armed Guard w 4" .38 2 bad guys 2 towards one....4 INTO the chest of 2nd...goes into side room to reload and BG that looks to have taken 4 killed him.

We have seen a lot of 11 rounds on asp and a few 13 though usually last 2 as they runoff to getaway car.

The fourth is recent ish vid south American High level like GM competition shooter vs 2BG 18 rounds until slide lock l
going back and forth w servings to both that were reanimated on ground sitting up to shoot still deadly threat (BP comes back less Hemorage shock once they fall seems to happen a lot with 9mm). Were those fmj or
Jhp? I just switched to 14 rounds of .40 or over caliber of hst in gun not at work because I want to be able to deliver the most tissue crush in short time frame!

[Clusterfrack]

The fourth is recent ish vid south American High level like GM competition shooter vs 2BG 18 rounds until slide lock...

That was an impressive encounter. Don't have time to fine the video right now, but it's linked here somewhere.

[Trooper224]

Bullet points, since I don't feel like typing a dissertation on this tired subject.

Been there, done that three times in my life. Only once were more then three rounds fired, that was in military context, not the civilian world.

I knew enough SEALs not to take their opinion on much of anything as gospel, especially what I need to protect myself on the streets of urban America. "Navy SEAL" has the exact opposite affect on me as it does the fanboi.

Bill Wilson and his cronies are in the business of selling guns and nothing sells guns like fear.

A hi cap mag is a feature, not a strategy. If you can't think rationally in a crisis, Jesse Venturas 20mm mini gun won't save you.

[JRB]

They’re selling new pistols. Massad mentioned flash mobs. Well, Kyle Rittenhouse fought off a mob with 4 shots. I’m not a law enforcement officer looking for trouble. Revolvers have kept me safe for the past few years, and I’ve weened myself down to one “just in case”Glock 19. Former Navy SEAL Shawn Ryan was sitting around with a bunch of other SEALS, and they all carried Glock 43 pistols a few years ago. Ryan had a Delta operator on his show last night, and his EDC is a Glock 43X. There was some mention of shot placement…..

P.S. I believe in carrying as many rounds as you like. 😉

Did they mention what mags they used? The 43X is very popular with other service members I work with, all but one is uses the 15rnd Shield Arms magazines.


"Multiple skilled invaders". Your ass is cooked.I don't care how many rounds you have.
Some situations you can't win.

Like someone, somewhere said, "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets."

True if we're playing straight probability. But I much prefer to roll my own dice and I'll set myself up to win however I can.


HK 10-rounders are good to go in my limited experience.

Can confirm - I had exactly two 10 round magazines for my USP45 for almost a decade. In that time I put probably 4-5k through that gun. Never once a hiccup regardless of ammo.

[DanTheWolfman]

Bullet points, since I don't feel like typing a dissertation on this tired subject.

Been there, done that three times in my life. Only once were more then three rounds fired, that was in military context, not the civilian world.

I knew enough SEALs not to take their opinion on much of anything as gospel, especially what I need to protect myself on the streets of urban America. "Navy SEAL" has the exact opposite affect on me as it does the fanboi.

Bill Wilson and his cronies are in the business of selling guns and nothing sells guns like fear.

A hi cap mag is a feature, not a strategy. If you can't think rationally in a crisis, Jesse Venturas 20mm mini gun won't save you.

If warships w canons were privately held and rented .....miniguns should be more abundantly.

Without prying too much....
I have to wonder if military was first giving you edge to think clearly during stress adrenaline dump later allowing higher accuracy and hit ratio than most can reasonably expect.

The fact I've bounced forever, Fought Pro, SWAT training I hope gives me edge and feel it has being more aware and able to think critically when I've been in situations. Had I not I would have been reacting late and forced to on multiple occasions

Reapect

[FrankB]

Did they mention what mags they used? The 43X is very popular with other service members I work with, all but one is uses the 15rnd Shield Arms magazines.


He (Kyle Morgan) just said aftermarket mags with higher capacity, but I think Shield Arms is the only game in town.

[FrankB]

Been there, done that three times in my life. Only once were more then three rounds fired, that was in military context, not the civilian world.

Bill Wilson and his cronies are in the business of selling guns and nothing sells guns like fear.

A hi cap mag is a feature, not a strategy. If you can't think rationally in a crisis, Jesse Venturas 20mm mini gun won't save you.

Mic Drop! 👍👍👍👍

[Clusterfrack]

Found it: Competitive shooting skills aid in self-defense against multiple armed attackers. 18 rounds fired.

https://youtu.be/5ozqd9Mv_cg?t=53

[JRB]

He (Kyle Morgan) just said aftermarket mags with higher capacity, but I think Shield Arms is the only game in town.

In that case, I guess I'm lost as to the point you're making with those references. Tier 1 guys carrying 15rnd guns doesn't sound like an argument for '10 rounds is enough' or any other arbitrary limits on capacity.


As to the rest, it seems like you're needlessly making this about your own confirmation bias(es), and not about the shifting realities in ~2022 America for defensive gun choices. The probability of a 3+ BG defensive gun use is increasing nationwide, and in some areas, increasing substantially. If you're happy carrying two wheelguns that's great, that doesn't mean the threat profiles aren't changing for a lot of folks, or that folks who switch from revolvers to 15+rnd semiautos or vice versa are wrong.

Some of us don't have the legal ability to carry multiple firearms for a Jim Cirillo 'NY Reload', so 15+ in the gun with a 15+rnd reload makes a lot more sense than a single wheelgun. That's my situation, so someone espousing 'RevolverS' in a defense of '10 rounds is enough' is complete BS for me or any other non-LEO in my state. No different than someone saying 'My Beretta is 18+1 so one magazine is enough' to a CA or OR resident.

We have to assess our local threats, compare that to our lifestyle decisions, understand what's legal for us, and then choose the means and methods that we can make work within those three sets of standards.
With a little luck, that can be something we enjoy, much as how you enjoy carrying your wheelguns. But 'wheelguns!!!' and smug confirmation bias based on averages isn't a useful answer for everyone.

[Clusterfrack]

I didn’t find FrankB’s posts smug at all. He makes valid points, although I don’t entirely agree.

[Trooper224]

If warships w canons were privately held and rented .....miniguns should be more abundantly.

Without prying too much....
I have to wonder if military was first giving you edge to think clearly during stress adrenaline dump later allowing higher accuracy and hit ratio than most can reasonably expect.

The fact I've bounced forever, Fought Pro, SWAT training I hope gives me edge and feel it has being more aware and able to think critically when I've been in situations. Had I not I would have been reacting late and forced to on multiple occasions

Reapect

You're absolutely right. My experiences prior to my law enforcement career undoubtedly helped me in that arena. I'm an emotionally reserved individual whose mental processes, even as a child, were geared towards logic and reasoning rather than emotion. Combined with experience, as well as a developed mechanical skill set, those traits have always allowed me to compartmentalize events and stand outside them in a decision making capacity. This is a great aid in a crisis, but it can also lead to hurdles in empathetic human relations. Getting back to your point, nothing can really be a substitute for experience.

To clarify, I'm all for people carrying as much ammo and gear as they choose. I carry more than some but a lot less than others. But, that should be done based on context and ability and shouldn't be used as a panacea.

[FrankB]

JRB
I’m anything but smug, and have stated that people are free to carry whatever they’d like. I’ve had smug remarks made to me at the local range when I carried a 5” .45 1911. One guy said, “If you’re going to carry that, you might as well carry a Colt Mustang.” I like all pistols, so please take all of my comments in the spirit of camaraderie which I tried to convey.

[MandoWookie]

I'm not gonna claim knowing anything, but to all the folks implying that Mas is just hocking Wilson's gun, and thus should be discounted, I distinctly remember him writing in articles and seeing old videos of him advocating the exact same viewpoints with guns that had no connection to Bill Wilson.
Most of those old magazines probably have been scanned and are online, I wonder if anyone with better research skills than me might be able to find if Mas has changed his opinion only in respect to Bill Wilson's products?

Most of what I have followed with regards to Mas has been him showing how to get the most out of whatever you are armed with from revolvers to 1911s to high cap semi autos.

But the easiest thing, seeing how he is a member of this forum, maybe ask him how he came to those opinions?
Surprisingly it might not have anything to do with Wilson coming out with a $3000 dollar high cap 1911.

[Clusterfrack]

...Most of what I have followed with regards to Mas has been him showing how to get the most out of whatever you are armed with from revolvers to 1911s to high cap semi autos.

But the easiest thing, seeing how he is a member of this forum, maybe ask him how he came to those opinions?

Thanks. I should have posted something like this earlier. I for one very much appreciate Mas' involvement in our forum. We should take advantage of that and ask him!

[SouthNarc]

Everyone keeps mentioning commandos. 50% of my business these days is closed coursework. I can assure everyone that white side SOF doesn’t shoot as well as your average training junkie who pays for 2-3 classes a year.

[psalms144.1]

Ramble follows

When folks cite to what former SEALS/DELTA/SF etc guys do and carry I would humbly ask you to ask yourself

1. Do you shoot as well as a former SF operator based on head to head comp/comparisons
2. Have you ever shot as much as a former SF Operator ( thousand of round a week, weeks in a row, for years etc)
3. Are you as fit as a former SF Operator
4. Can you perform a given task in a life and death environment to the same standard …
5. Do you have the mindset of a….

IN broad strokes, the answer tends to be NO so what they do and what we do might be two different things re “need” for capacity, ability to place a shot under stress after having done so a few times in the past etc.


In broad strokes-It is simply not that hard to dress around a G19 sized weapon and 1 reload for most folks most of the time or whatever platform you demonstrably shoot the best given the performance you have done with a timer etc.


I get it if you work in a social NPE such that a G42 is all you can get away with relative to your employment etc.

For every one of those folks, there are many who are too lazy and/or cheap and/or poor decision makers who continue to refuse to buy a purpose made belt, mate it to a purpose made holster and get some training.

The vast majority of guys I know that are 5 shot j frame/pocket pistol folks have BTDT…. A lot. They still exude a decided DNFWM air, are poly lingual/cross cultural code switchers and still can bench press 150 % of their body weight. Look in the mirror-is that you?

Tom Givens said it best years ago in a class- to paraphrase- an 8 shot 1911 is a two bad guy gun. Unfortunately, we finds ourselves living in at least a 3 bad guy world.

Working from home with an AIWB G17/RDS and 16 rds of Speer Gold Dot 124+p.

YMMV Greatly

Blessings to you and yours in this time.I'll only add this - I had the immense privilege of training with some of the very highest performing SOF guys we have ever turned out, guys who had years and years of combat experience, virtually unlimited access to absolutely state of the art training facilities, training time, and training ammunition. AND they're in absolutely peak physical condition. THOSE GUYS told me they would be ESCTATIC with 50% hit rate during active combat - e.g. moving and shooting against moving and shooting targets in immensely high stress situations.

I'm a pretty damned good pistol shot, and I get all kinds of gerflukt when I'm shooting with my best friend, because the stress of wanting to not look bad in front of him is enough to make me do all kinds of stupid things to my trigger. And I have been exposed to quite a bit of real world tactical and shooting situations both in the military and in LE. So, most people who think they're going to get 50% hits in the real world in your "oh $h1+" gunfight are smoking crack.

Sure, folks manage to do it. The video out of Brazil is a good example, but I'd venture to guess the max range there was about 7 yards, and, more importantly, both of the BGs tried to break contact (e.g. were NOT actively/effectively fighting back), and MOST of the GG's shooting was done once the BGs became stationary.

[JRB]

JRB
I’m anything but smug, and have stated that people are free to carry whatever they’d like. I’ve had smug remarks made to me at the local range when I carried a 5” .45 1911. One guy said, “If you’re going to carry that, you might as well carry a Colt Mustang.” I like all pistols, so please take all of my comments in the spirit of camaraderie which I tried to convey.

Ah - the fog of the internet strikes again!
I processed it more as a 'folks can carry whatever they like, but I carry revolvers and that'll always get it done' with the implication that anyone doing more is wasting their time.
Mea Culpa - I owe you a P-F beer or real beer, or both. :cool:

As to smug remarks at the range, I've learned to judge those based on their shooting. I'd bet that jackwagon suggesting a Mustang in place of a 1911 wasn't shooting groups we'd admire here on P-F. :)

To that end, I remember countless similar remarks about my Inox 92FS. Seems that pistol can't come out of a case at a shared firing line without someone negatively commenting on it!

[FrankB]

Ah - the fog of the internet strikes again!
I processed it more as a 'folks can carry whatever they like, but I carry revolvers and that'll always get it done' with the implication that anyone doing more is wasting their time.
Mea Culpa - I owe you a P-F beer or real beer, or both. :cool:
As to smug remarks at the range, I've learned to judge those based on their shooting. I'd bet that jackwagon suggesting a Mustang in place of a 1911 wasn't shooting groups we'd admire here on P-F. :)
To that end, I remember countless similar remarks about my Inox 92FS. Seems that pistol can't come out of a case at a shared firing line without someone negatively commenting on it!

When I responded to the Might as well carry a Colt Mustang, I pulled out one of James Yeager’s smug remarks, and asked the guy how many times he planned on missing. Yeager was responding to viewers questions, and one was, “How many rounds do I need to engage a active shooter/terrorist?” Yeager’s answer really got me thinking in terms of capacity.

This forum is pretty good in terms of friendly behavior. In fact, it’s the only firearms forum I belong to. I was a member of a classical guitar forum, and those guys simply argued and tried to arrange in person fights.

[Trooper224]

Ah - the fog of the internet strikes again!
I processed it more as a 'folks can carry whatever they like, but I carry revolvers and that'll always get it done' with the implication that anyone doing more is wasting their time.
Mea Culpa - I owe you a P-F beer or real beer, or both. :cool:

As to smug remarks at the range, I've learned to judge those based on their shooting. I'd bet that jackwagon suggesting a Mustang in place of a 1911 wasn't shooting groups we'd admire here on P-F. :)

To that end, I remember countless similar remarks about my Inox 92FS. Seems that pistol can't come out of a case at a shared firing line without someone negatively commenting on it!

An INOX 92 is one of the sexiest pistols ever made. Philistines.

[Warped Mindless]

Please understand that I'm not picking on you, Frank, I'm only seeking clarification. In "the past few years" how many times have you had to employ the "revolvers that have kept (you) safe" in a defensive situation? And under what conditions? Knowing that may assist in evaluating the concept that six (or possibly 5) rounds is sufficient to repel boarders.

As a sidebar, I'm not now and have never been a Special Operations guy. I don't know, but it's possible that Shawn Ryan and his collegues possessed concealed weapons they didn't display. In any event, I presume that those men have acquired skill sets that I can only admire from afar. So the reference to SEALS doesn't just resonate with me.

Cordially,
Duces

Go watch some videos of Shawn shoot and you won’t have to admire his skills as yours is possibly better.

As far as pure pistol shooting goes, I’d take the average PF guy who actually competes over many former “high speed” dudes from what ive seen.

All that said, my general rule is that I don’t carry anything below 10rds. With how tiny the 365 is, not sure why I would.

[Clusterfrack]

...This forum is pretty good in terms of friendly behavior. In fact, it’s the only firearms forum I belong to. I was a member of a classical guitar forum, and those guys simply argued and tried to arrange in person fights.

Well, that's no surprise. I'm guessing Totem Polar was involved?

[ssc45]

It would appear we each must decide on our own salvation. For me, it is a glock 17 or 19 with extra mags. I prefer to be the last guy to run out of bullets if the SHTF. In my experience, I have had to deal with multiple dirtbags on more than one occasion. As a CCW, I don't have a cover nor backup. I am on my own to rectify the situation and/or protect my loved ones. I have spoke to and seen video of good guys take bullet wounds to hands and forearms who were unable to perform a reload upon slidelock. Considering the number of friends (both LEO and CCW) who have been there done that, none has ever said I wish I had fewer bullets. I know what the stats say, but I have bad luck.

One buddy, who got into a shooting on the Vegas strip, said he was thankful he had a hicap. He indicated he would have been dead otherwise. He had just transitioned from smith 19 to a smith 59. Another bud use to make fun of me and he carried a j frame. Then when he and his family were robbed by 3 bad guys and bullets flew, he regretted his decision. After recovering he bought a hicap 9. Seems I remember one of the surviving agents from the Miami shootout bought a sig 226 afterwards, as he wanted a hicap. I can go on and on, but no need.

I carry extra mags, not because I think I will get into an extended gunfight, but due to malfunction issues. Anyway, stats are stats, but the real world is a cruel teacher.

YMMV, Cheers, Steve

[TheNewbie]

Different ways to do this or that, but if the average shooter followed Mas’ advice, they would be doing well, and we would all be better off.



More importantly, we need to pitch a reality show for those guitar forum fights. I wouldn’t get in a fight over my 20 year old Taylor, but I would watch fights over guitars!

[03RN]

Fwiw I fought through Fallujah with a 200rd SAW, 8RD M1014, AND 15 RD M9 as a infantryman. I'm not longer in Fallujah.

Im currently carrying a m625 with 8 spare rounds in a belt slide.

I live a rural life and the moose and bears are a bigger concern than any meth head. I work in recovery and deal with them every day but it's not an immediate concern where I live.

If I lived in a violent area then I might change my mind .

Capacity as a tactic is poor tactics conus. Accuracy, maneuvering, and communication are all more important. Capacity is the least important aspect of a fight conus

[Duces Tecum]

I have spoke to and seen video of good guys take bullet wounds to hands and forearms who were unable to perform a reload upon slidelock.

Sidebar: Not intended as thread drift.
Good case for being able to access a gun with either hand, I'd think.


Duces

[DanTheWolfman]

I'm all for hearing more from Mas, and directly on here if possible.

I seem to always remember him preaching Glock 30's like SIS or Beretta 92. I think dropping a Revo for a NY reload also recommended. So I don't think he has ever preached low capacity.

Again...half my incidents were solo guys, many 2 guys like the week riots started for instance two felons on street, and once 5 guys. One Solo guy had AK pistol. These were all hand on pistol or Defensive Displays...or more required. At work been a couple other tingly instances...multiples BG's casing FELT IT as soon as some walked in....new the older trailer was the shooter if need be, passing bad checks...one wanted badly by Marshals. Another time at Lunch at Buddy's BBQ...in walked two ..... entrepreneur's let's say....black hoodies up........one with REAL thickness of body armor underneath FKING ruined my BBQ as I have to stand up everyone looking at me...parents next to me with infant looking at me and me praying dudes are just hungry while they are out slanging.....Body Armor...BBQ on hands...F me

Some people in the sticks don't know what it is like in and around D cities..... but as bad as drugs are everywhere now mass attacks have gone up exponentially according to the Feds too

[03RN]

I'm all for hearing more from Mas, and directly on here if possible.

I seem to always remember him preaching Glock 30's like SIS or Beretta 92. I think dropping a Revo for a NY reload also recommended. So I don't think he has ever preached low capacity.

Again...half my incidents were solo guys, many 2 guys like the week riots started for instance two felons on street, and once 5 guys. One Solo guy had AK pistol. These were all hand on pistol or Defensive Displays...or more required. At work been a couple other tingly instances...multiples BG's casing FELT IT as soon as some walked in....new the older trailer was the shooter if need be, passing bad checks...one wanted badly by Marshals. Another time at Lunch at Buddy's BBQ...in walked two ..... entrepreneur's let's say....black hoodies up........one with REAL thickness of body armor underneath FKING ruined my BBQ as I have to stand up everyone looking at me...parents next to me with infant looking at me and me praying dudes are just hungry while they are out slanging.....Body Armor...BBQ on hands...F me

Some people in the sticks don't know what it is like in and around D cities..... but as bad as drugs are everywhere now mass attacks have gone up exponentially according to the Feds too

I've walked into a room with 5 bad guys with 7 rounds in my gun.

Shoot fast, accurate, with enough gun.

[GJM]

Thread shift, but I think Wilson Combat has won the demographic contest. Considering the products WC sells, I can't imagine three better YT personalities than Ken, Bill and Mas.

[DanTheWolfman]

If it ever comes to that I hope I do.
But, I certainly was praying it didn't pop off near an infant.

[DanTheWolfman]

Thread shift, but I think Wilson Combat has won the demographic contest. Considering the products WC sells, I can't imagine three better YT personalities than Ken, Bill and Mas.

Paul Harrel responded to me the other day, regarding his Part 2 upcoming on long range .45 pistol 6" vs 5" but this time with 185 gr at 100 yards.

I told him Ken said Seals during Bin Laden Raid were armed with HK45c's (lovely pistol) with 185 plus p JHP's (Golden Sabers/Underwood IDK?)

And that Mas had previously written that 185 was used successfully in the sandbox long range engagements (Delta?)

Wilson 47D's and 10 rounders are good to go for me. Can't afford a WC pistol yet though ...or justify it anyway

[03RN]

If it ever comes to that I hope I do.
But, I certainly was praying it didn't pop off near an infant.


I want to end the threat as fast as possible. Is 2 and 4 close enough to infant?
98189

[Mas]

Thanks for the invitation, but I don't have too much to add to what I said on the video.

Analyze the individual's threat profile, which may change with where he or she is and what he or she is doing. Example: historically, cops have carried way less off duty than they carry on duty.

Look at it like a continuum or a bell curve.

Most of the time, we won't need the gun at all.

When we do need it, it's more likely to be an armed encounter than a gunfight. I've taken dozens of people at gunpoint, and some here on the forum have taken far more, but have not yet had to fire a live round at a human being. A veteran cop in a high crime area will soon lose count of how many people he or she has had to take at gunpoint, but I've never met a cop who shot so many people (or got shot at so many times) that they lost count of the incident.

The vast majority of both police and armed citizen defensive gun usages end as soon as the criminal aggressor realizes he is suffering from a sudden and acute failure of the victim selection process, is about to get shot, and "abjures from the conflict."

We get out pretty much to the far end of the bell curve when the proverbial Good Guy actually has to shoot at the Bad Guy(s).

On the farthest end of the bell curve are the high (gunshot) volume gunfights. Ballpark, that could be plus/minus 10%; we don't know exactly because we don't have a proper empirical database. (See the work of John Lott recently, re: the number of incidents not reported and/or not properly analyzed.).

Then, look at the time it takes to reload. Some say the one-second auto pistol reload is an impossible myth; while it can be done, it is most unlikely to occur with a reload from a pouch under a concealing garment or a flapped uniform duty magazine pouch. Let's say three to five seconds on the average, hypothetically.

Would any of us consider it a fair fight if, in the boxing match, only one fighter was required to lower his hands and drop his guard for two, three, five or however many seconds while his opponent did not have the same handicap? That's where you are with the lower-capacity gun against one or more lethal opponents who can keep shooting (because, being law-breakers by definition, they don't obey magazine capacity laws anyway).

Personally, about 2/3 of the time I carry a sixteen-shot 9mm as primary (as I am at the moment, writing this), and a third of the time a nine-shot .45 like a 1911 or eleven-shot .45 like a Glock 30 or eleven-shot 9mm 1911, always with one backup magazine for the higher capacity models and two for the lower capacity, before we get into backup guns.

Each of us must make the choice depending where we are and what we are doing, and those choices could change for each of us depending on our circumstances.

The higher capacity gun becomes even more important for a home or store defense gun stored in a static location and not on our physical person: when the SHTF is in action, there may barely be time to grab the gun, let alone spare mags or speedloaders. The physically handicapped suffer a particular disparate impact in this regard, as I testified at length in Federal court (see: www.coloradoguncase.org).

Y'all make your own decisions. I've made mine. I did the best I could to explain them in the Wilson Combat video with which AMP opened this discussion, and I am of course available for debate.

[DanTheWolfman]

they wouldn't have cared about spraying...I practice lots of headshots but still. 2 vs 1 body armor Crowded environment....hoodies stayed up...probably warrants.

My 9mm ammo out of my duty pistol runs about 1365ish fps not far off from a .357

Still I'm switching to stuff that starts with a .4

[DanTheWolfman]

Thanks for the invitation, but I don't have too much to add to what I said on the video.

Analyze the individual's threat profile, which may change with where he or she is and what he or she is doing. Example: historically, cops have carried way less off duty than they carry on duty.

Look at it like a continuum or a bell curve.

Most of the time, we won't need the gun at all.

When we do need it, it's more likely to be an armed encounter than a gunfight. I've taken dozens of people at gunpoint, and some here on the forum have taken far more, but have not yet had to fire a live round at a human being. A veteran cop in a high crime area will soon lose count of how many people he or she has had to take at gunpoint, but I've never met a cop who shot so many people (or got shot at so many times) that they lost count of the incident.

The vast majority of both police and armed citizen defensive gun usages end as soon as the criminal aggressor realizes he is suffering from a sudden and acute failure of the victim selection process, is about to get shot, and "abjures from the conflict."

We get out pretty much to the far end of the bell curve when the proverbial Good Guy actually has to shoot at the Bad Guy(s).

On the farthest end of the bell curve are the high (gunshot) volume gunfights. Ballpark, that could be plus/minus 10%; we don't know exactly because we don't have a proper empirical database. (See the work of John Lott recently, re: the number of incidents not reported and/or not properly analyzed.).

Then, look at the time it takes to reload. Some say the one-second auto pistol reload is an impossible myth; while it can be done, it is most unlikely to occur with a reload from a pouch under a concealing garment or a flapped uniform duty magazine pouch. Let's say three to five seconds on the average, hypothetically.

Would any of us consider it a fair fight if, in the boxing match, only one fighter was required to lower his hands and drop his guard for two, three, five or however many seconds while his opponent did not have the same handicap? That's where you are with the lower-capacity gun against one or more lethal opponents who can keep shooting (because, being law-breakers by definition, they don't obey magazine capacity laws anyway).

Personally, about 2/3 of the time I carry a sixteen-shot 9mm as primary (as I am at the moment, writing this), and a third of the time a nine-shot .45 like a 1911 or eleven-shot .45 like a Glock 30 or eleven-shot 9mm 1911, always with one backup magazine for the higher capacity models and two for the lower capacity, before we get into backup guns.

Each of us must make the choice depending where we are and what we are doing, and those choices could change for each of us depending on our circumstances.

The higher capacity gun becomes even more important for a home or store defense gun stored in a static location and not on our physical person: when the SHTF is in action, there may barely be time to grab the gun, let alone spare mags or speedloaders. The physically handicapped suffer a particular disparate impact in this regard, as I testified at length in Federal court (see: www.coloradoguncase.org).

Y'all make your own decisions. I've made mine. I did the best I could to explain them in the Wilson Combat video with which AMP opened this discussion, and I am of course available for debate.

Thank you so much for stopping by. I am new to this forum and you made my night.
Do you always or only sometimes carry a BUG, and is it more a Snub or a Micro9? I did a Rebuttal to ASP 9 reasons to carry a BUG...the important reasons aren't the ones most site IMO. I always carry BUG-Now a 13 shot micro9mm offside front pocket. And also just reviewed Alpha Defender boot that has holster as part of boot so no flopping around which would be good choice if always at desk or driving though generally prefer offside front pocket. I worry three would be "Ostentatious" and bad in court even if a good shoot. I'm an armed guard, not LE.

IF you can expand on BUG please do.


ALSO, given that so many LE mandate 52 rds on duty with so many carrying 11 rd G26 Backup....or Mike the Cop when he was a cop stating he carried G42 and an extra mag for that...is a Civilian pretty defensible to say I carry up to 63 rounds when they try lawyer tricks?

[Mas]

Happy to expand on the backup gun thing.

I've carried backup on my own time, most of the time, since the latter 1970s and on police duty from early 1970s to 2017.

Hand on snub in pocket, sub-one-second draw to the shot in iffy circumstances.

In some circumstance, easier to reach second gun than spare magazine when primary is no longer running for whatever reason.

And, mainly, it allows me to arm a competent person who is with me in crisis but not carrying their own for whatever reason.

I like a DAO hammerless snub .38 because in the latter circumstance I won't have time to explain where the safety is, why they shouldn't put their support hand thumb behind the back of it like they were taught at the academy before they retired, and it won't have a trigger they can easily and unintentionally discharge under stress. If belly to belly, a J-frame revolver will work five for five at press contact instead of zero for however many unshootable rounds when the barrel-slide assembly goes out of battery.

Look for a Wilson Combat video (or two) on THAT way down the road...:D:cool:

[Trooper224]

I'm all for hearing more from Mas, and directly on here if possible.

I seem to always remember him preaching Glock 30's like SIS or Beretta 92. I think dropping a Revo for a NY reload also recommended. So I don't think he has ever preached low capacity.

Again...half my incidents were solo guys, many 2 guys like the week riots started for instance two felons on street, and once 5 guys. One Solo guy had AK pistol. These were all hand on pistol or Defensive Displays...or more required. At work been a couple other tingly instances...multiples BG's casing FELT IT as soon as some walked in....new the older trailer was the shooter if need be, passing bad checks...one wanted badly by Marshals. Another time at Lunch at Buddy's BBQ...in walked two ..... entrepreneur's let's say....black hoodies up........one with REAL thickness of body armor underneath FKING ruined my BBQ as I have to stand up everyone looking at me...parents next to me with infant looking at me and me praying dudes are just hungry while they are out slanging.....Body Armor...BBQ on hands...F me

Some people in the sticks don't know what it is like in and around D cities..... but as bad as drugs are everywhere now mass attacks have gone up exponentially according to the Feds too

I don't think anyone here is preaching low capacity either. If anything, what is usually preached around here is: choose your gear based upon your personal context and be real about your own abilities.

[DanTheWolfman]

Awesome thanks....Confronted by Unknown contacts drills...with lcp/max9 hand on gun offside front pocket I am .98 to headshot...with Colt Det/Model12 offside front pocket more around 1.3. Cylinder width for pocket draw ok in jeans, not as reliable in my At work pants. Even front sight orange nail polish...that or the grips seems to make my times slower w/ the wheelies from pocket.

[ssb]

The biggest practical (not legal/constitutional) concern about mag bans to me is that most modern semi-autos simply aren’t designed for the neutered mags. They’re Glocks, SIGs, Smiths, CZs, and whoever else designed around 15-20 shot mags; the reduced mags simply don’t work as well, and often seem like an afterthought. In the case of Glock magazines, the neutered mags aren’t just an afterthought - they’re known to be unreliable, so much so that Glock as a company won’t recommend them for duty use. For all of them, the manufacturer makes damn sure you aren’t getting an eleventh round in the magazine - to the point where reloading a full mag on a closed slide is difficult if not impossible. Some have those polymer filler base plates and a chopped magazine tube, and they don’t always want to drop free. And so on and so forth.

Issues like these are why the G43X/48 excited me: they serve as a reliable native-10 shot option for restricted states.

The only reason I carry a 17 shot gun is because the gun I like, can conceal, and can shoot well happens to hold 17 rounds. While there’s certainly a floor as to what I’m comfortable with in a mid- to large 9mm semi auto, I would not be uncomfortable if this gun held less rounds (actually, I’d almost prefer it if the mags were 15-16 round mags — SIG used up every bit of free space they had, leading to the same issues neutered 10 round mags have). I simply don’t think my 17 shot pistol is likely to make much of a difference in the majority of scenarios likely to occur.

[DanTheWolfman]

2 bad guys Transitions 11 shots until slide lock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ywhzdWg9Sc

4 Bad Guys F Mag limits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehf5Zr3gn8w&t=

I sure wish I could find the 6 shot revo vs 2 vid again on ASP

Since it's relevant to discussion I would sure like to be able to post my 9 reasons to carry a BUG ASP Rebuttal video if a Mod would give the ok?

[Clusterfrack]

Since it's relevant to discussion I would sure like to be able to post my 9 reasons to carry a BUG ASP Rebuttal video if a Mod would give the ok?

Thanks for asking, dude. You're GTG.

[DanTheWolfman]

Thanks for asking, dude. You're GTG.

Thanks man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKXntrhtKFo&t=

And...figure this ok...I do not make any money with them they simply sent the boots after seeing my really old warn ones...and I think this is a Better solution than most floppy possible yard sale ankle carry options . In general not a fan of ankle, but if was office or driving all day it would be different.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xh1ctItBwg

AGAIN, thank you MAS for stopping by.
Would love to hear if Civies good to go carrying up to 63 a very typical LE loadout. I carry 63 at work...usually when not at work 40 total but still.

[FrankB]

DanTheWolfman
To your first point in the video, this was me at the gas station earlier today. My wife and I were on our way to the range at lunchtime, and that’s a 2” Colt King Cobra, and I pushed it outward for the picture. Taking pics of my firearms isn’t something I typically do, but this was taken for purposes of this thread.

98195

[DanTheWolfman]

DanTheWolfman
To your first point in the video, this was me at the gas station earlier today. My wife and I were on our way to the range at lunchtime, and that’s a 2” Colt King Cobra, and I pushed it outward for the picture. Taking pics of my firearms isn’t something I typically do, but this was taken for purposes of this thread.

98195
Nice...I mentioned coat pocket carry, or having hand already on the BUG (like at gas stations or in lines)
I'd really like a 3" Cobra but price or bidding has stopped me thus far.

[feudist]

[QUOTE=DanTheWolfman;1425346]2 bad guys Transitions 11 shots until slide lock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ywhzdWg9Sc




Dang.
Off to practice my regular HMOOACADWFOHT2HFGOMT drill.*


*"Hurling myself out of a chair and drawing while falling one hand to 2 hand firing grip on multiple targets drill."
Just kidding. I don't practice it regularly.

[SwampDweller]

As soon as I saw this thread posted, I had a feeling it would turn into one of the great gold mines of knowledge and experience that make me thankful for p-f. Years and years ago when I could only read Mr. Ayoob's articles in magazines or online, or read his books, did I ever imagine times would come where such people would be able to impart knowledge on a live-time forum.

Right now, I'm usually either carrying a 16-shot 9mm, a 13 shot .45 (USP 45f), or 14 shot .45 (G21 Gen 4)-- and a 5 shot J frame in the pocket. There may come times in the not-so-far future where I may find myself in jurisdictions that only allow 10 rounds in the magazine, and I go back and forth on my options.

Mas , if you were forced to live in a 10 round state, would that change your approach to caliber at all? (that is to say, 10rds of 9mm vs 10rds of .45) In addition, where do you think a 12-13 shot .45 falls on this bell curve of probabilities in terms of being enough?

[SwampDweller]

Can confirm - I had exactly two 10 round magazines for my USP45 for almost a decade. In that time I put probably 4-5k through that gun. Never once a hiccup regardless of ammo.

Good to know. I was considering getting a full size HK45 as a 10 round ban state .45, but if the USP 45 10rd mags are just as reliable, I figure it makes more sense to stick with my two USP 45s and get some 10 round mags in case I ever need to go to a ban state. Especially since I already have holsters and spare parts. Instead of getting a full size HK45, maybe I'll just get an HK45c again for cases where I need a smaller pistol, but then we're down to 8 rounds, and I feel the points Mr. Ayoob brought up make me a little more hesitant.

[DanTheWolfman]

Good to know. I was considering getting a full size HK45 as a 10 round ban state .45, but if the USP 45 10rd mags are just as reliable, I figure it makes more sense to stick with my two USP 45s and get some 10 round mags in case I ever need to go to a ban state. Especially since I already have holsters and spare parts. Instead of getting a full size HK45, maybe I'll just get an HK45c again for cases where I need a smaller pistol, but then we're down to 8 rounds, and I feel the points Mr. Ayoob brought up make me a little more hesitant.

Use 45c w 10 rounders for 11 (10 rd Elephant shoe mags or 10 rd HK45 mags work). Weight is a bit heavy though.

I'm switching to 14 of .40/45 Methodology as DOES WAY MORE total Tissue Crush HST/Gold Dot in shorter amount of time than 15-20 rds of 9mm can.

If limited to 10 than 11 rounds of .45 it is HK or Glock or 1911 LW Commander w/ Wilson 10 rd mag options no doubt for me. those are all best valid options. 11 rds 180 .40 HST isn't bad either. 11 rds 9mm that's a no go IMO.

[Stephanie B]

The Buffalo Tops shooter, a few miles from me, had body armor and thus was not taken down by the ex-law officer security guard. So it happens, is it modal? No. But that's the point, you don't just train or carry to exclusion on the modal event.

The pathetic asswipe who shot up a gay bar in Colorado Springs (and who was stomped for his troubles) was reportedly wearing body armor.

[CCT125US]

I recall back in the early days of this forum, TLG spent alot of time shooting 2" dots.

I also recall someone mentioning the viability of head shots as the default target. Also the percentage of headshots that result in immediate incapacitation. The recipient may get back up, but there's always whack a mole. At least that's how I remember it.

[MandoWookie]

The '10 round limit' question is why I would default to my M&P45. Not because necessarily the 'bigger bullets' reasons, but because it is built around 10 rounds, and is a gun I can shoot very well and carries well.

But I'm not worried about a return of the AWB. Because if legislation gets passed, it won't we AWB 2: Electric Boogaloo. It will be a complete semi-auto ban, and restriction on capacity like what Canada or New York did. 5 rounds long gun, 6-7 rounds pistol.

That is what is openly being advocated right now.

So capacity arguments are moot, because the places with them now will keep them, and any laws attempted to get to pass will likely be more onerous.

Legal challenges under Bruen standard are not a guaranteed panacea, it only takes a sufficient change in the political winds to have that neutered or reversed.

So trying to game out what is your AWB carry is pointless because the law hasn't been written yet.

[Willard]

T Because if legislation gets passed, it won't we AWB 2: Electric Boogaloo. It will be a complete semi-auto ban, and restriction on capacity like what Canada or New York did. 5 rounds long gun, 6-7 rounds pistol.

That is what is openly being advocated right now.

So capacity arguments are moot, because the places with them now will keep them, and any laws attempted to get to pass will likely be more onerous.

Legal challenges under Bruen standard are not a guaranteed panacea, it only takes a sufficient change in the political winds to have that neutered or reversed.

So trying to game out what is your AWB carry is pointless because the law hasn't been written yet.

If the American people allow this they deserve this:

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.”

― George Orwell, 1984

[SwampDweller]

The '10 round limit' question is why I would default to my M&P45. Not because necessarily the 'bigger bullets' reasons, but because it is built around 10 rounds, and is a gun I can shoot very well and carries well.

But I'm not worried about a return of the AWB. Because if legislation gets passed, it won't we AWB 2: Electric Boogaloo. It will be a complete semi-auto ban, and restriction on capacity like what Canada or New York did. 5 rounds long gun, 6-7 rounds pistol.

That is what is openly being advocated right now.

So capacity arguments are moot, because the places with them now will keep them, and any laws attempted to get to pass will likely be more onerous.

Legal challenges under Bruen standard are not a guaranteed panacea, it only takes a sufficient change in the political winds to have that neutered or reversed.

So trying to game out what is your AWB carry is pointless because the law hasn't been written yet.

Not to drift from the subject of capacity too much, but in the proposed federal bills I've seen this, it's all said 10 rounds max. But it's hard to keep up.

[DDTSGM]

Everyone keeps mentioning commandos. 50% of my business these days is closed coursework. I can assure everyone that white side SOF doesn’t shoot as well as your average training junkie who pays for 2-3 classes a year.

Back in the day of the old HK ITD, there was a SEAL or two in nearly every class I took. As far as 'white side' SOF in the 80's early 90's, I found that to be true.

It was actually kind of disappointing.

[MountainRaven]

The pathetic asswipe who shot up a gay bar in Colorado Springs (and who was stomped for his troubles) was reportedly wearing body armor.

Were they actually wearing armor or were they just wearing a, "tactical vest"? Because it seems that a lot of reports of people wearing armor are actually just people wearing load-bearing vests.

[BehindBlueI's]

Guntalk's Tom Gresham said it this way several years ago. Average home invasion is 3 bad guys. Average # rounds to stop a bad guy is three so you need 9. But average hit ratio of police is 50% so you really need 18. So our HD Beretta 92s all have 20 rnd MecGars. My and my wife's EDCs carry 15rnds in the gun and the spare is a 17.

I get the math, but reality seldom works that way. If it takes 1 shot to kill a crow, there are 20 crows on a power line, and you fire one shot how many crows are left on the line? None, 0-1 is dead and 19-20 are in flight depending on if you hit or not. Home invasions are very similar in that you drop one the others are leaving. Where the notion 3 is the average number of invaders comes from I've no idea, but it's high based on my own stats from the case files I worked or came through my office. Even if you don't count "accidental home invasions" where burglars think the home is empty, enter, and then it turns into a robbery home invasions tend to be single suspects or partners. Crew robberies are a rounding error away from being all dope related. On rare occasion, the robbers hit the wrong house (or, more generally the wrong apartment) thinking it's the dope house but that doesn't change the motivation.

For every single home invasion I worked, the defender who fired a long gun from a distance (meaning simply "not entangled") won the encounter. "Win" being defined as not being killed or injured significantly enough to require medical transport.


"Multiple skilled invaders". Your ass is cooked.I don't care how many rounds you have.
Some situations you can't win.

Like someone, somewhere said, "You will run out of time before you run out of bullets."

I'm that someone. People facing multiple attackers either win or lose before their gun is dry, especially vs random crime. I've seen a few dead guys with empty guns in their hands, and a few memorable draws where they both shot the shit out of each other and neither survived, but it's been criminal on criminal targeted crime. The biggest issue with multiple attackers is you may not even know you have multiple attackers until the overwatch guy enters the fight. This is more a concern for higher risk targeted individuals, say an armored car guard, but I've seen it even with pizza delivery drivers.

More bullets is more better, you can't have too many unless you're swimming or on fire, but I think people get hung up on capacity without really understanding the time dynamic. My opinion is high round count competition games has given many folks an unrealistic idea of the value of capacity and an underappreciation for the value of time. In reality they don't just wait for you to shoot them and by the time you're transitioning to #3 he's already through the OODA loop and laying into you if he's willing to stand and fight. The ability to draw and shoot on the *fast move* is significantly more useful for your survival than the ability to transition from target to target while staying planted, IMO, but regardless you'll need a hell of a lot of luck on your side if you have multiple dedicated opponents willing to fight it out with you.

[DanTheWolfman]

I get the math, but reality seldom works that way. If it takes 1 shot to kill a crow, there are 20 crows on a power line, and you fire one shot how many crows are left on the line? None, 0-1 is dead and 19-20 are in flight depending on if you hit or not. Home invasions are very similar in that you drop one the others are leaving. Where the notion 3 is the average number of invaders comes from I've no idea, but it's high based on my own stats from the case files I worked or came through my office. Even if you don't count "accidental home invasions" where burglars think the home is empty, enter, and then it turns into a robbery home invasions tend to be single suspects or partners. Crew robberies are a rounding error away from being all dope related. On rare occasion, the robbers hit the wrong house (or, more generally the wrong apartment) thinking it's the dope house but that doesn't change the motivation.

For every single home invasion I worked, the defender who fired a long gun from a distance (meaning simply "not entangled") won the encounter. "Win" being defined as not being killed or injured significantly enough to require medical transport.



I'm that someone. People facing multiple attackers either win or lose before their gun is dry, especially vs random crime. I've seen a few dead guys with empty guns in their hands, and a few memorable draws where they both shot the shit out of each other and neither survived, but it's been criminal on criminal targeted crime. The biggest issue with multiple attackers is you may not even know you have multiple attackers until the overwatch guy enters the fight. This is more a concern for higher risk targeted individuals, say an armored car guard, but I've seen it even with pizza delivery drivers.

More bullets is more better, you can't have too many unless you're swimming or on fire, but I think people get hung up on capacity without really understanding the time dynamic. My opinion is high round count competition games has given many folks an unrealistic idea of the value of capacity and an underappreciation for the value of time. In reality they don't just wait for you to shoot them and by the time you're transitioning to #3 he's already through the OODA loop and laying into you if he's willing to stand and fight. The ability to draw and shoot on the *fast move* is significantly more useful for your survival than the ability to transition from target to target while staying planted, IMO, but regardless you'll need a hell of a lot of luck on your side if you have multiple dedicated opponents willing to fight it out with you.


To this thinking.....I regularly do a Multiple Attacker (3 Attacker) Retreat Drill...Draw +5 transitions...2 by 2 by 2...back to headshots while moving back 1x 1x 1x...7-7.5 seconds any platform or caliber. Condensed time frames. This is similar to the vid I posted 2 bad guys come in...the trailer guy went in first...11 shots multiple transitions needed. Short time frame from the time your awareness recognizes threat. I think situations on 2-3 like this are most common, and why changing over to 14 rounds if it starts with a .4 over 9mm for more tissue crush dispensed in the likely shorter time frame.

One could do the same 2x2x2 back to 2x2x2 to body as well...

or on two BGs 3x3......though in most instances I think a serving of 2 per is the better route and re-access.

[willie]

JRB
I’m anything but smug, and have stated that people are free to carry whatever they’d like. I’ve had smug remarks made to me at the local range when I carried a 5” .45 1911. One guy said, “If you’re going to carry that, you might as well carry a Colt Mustang.” I like all pistols, so please take all of my comments in the spirit of camaraderie which I tried to convey.

Well stated. I don't agree with your revolver point but must exclaim that I have no qualifications that support my opinion. I like revolvers too but see them as having self defense limitations. It's obvious that you seriously study shooting craft, and you offer worthwhile comments.

[BehindBlueI's]

To this thinking.....I regularly do a Multiple Attacker (3 Attacker) Retreat Drill...Draw +5 transitions...2 by 2 by 2...back to headshots while moving back 1x 1x 1x...7-7.5 seconds any platform or caliber. Condensed time frames. This is similar to the vid I posted 2 bad guys come in...the trailer guy went in first...11 shots multiple transitions needed. Short time frame from the time your awareness recognizes threat. I think situations on 2-3 like this are most common, and why changing over to 14 rounds if it starts with a .4 over 9mm for more tissue crush dispensed in the likely shorter time frame.

One could do the same 2x2x2 back to 2x2x2 to body as well...

or on two BGs 3x3......though in most instances I think a serving of 2 per is the better route and re-access.

I think you're likely overestimating the importance of tissue crush differences between common duty calibers in prevailing in a gunfight. I won't say it's a meaningless metric, but it's definitely angels dancing on pinheads level metric. Again, staying in the realm of common duty calibers for handguns, and given the body's ability to swell and compensate for damaged tissue short term it's not a measurement that is going to effect incapacitation in any meaningful way. I think this is pretty well trodden ground on PF and I won't derail this thread with details, but if you care to search for it I'm sure you'll find it in the ammo section.

[DanTheWolfman]

I think you're likely overestimating the importance of tissue crush differences between common duty calibers in prevailing in a gunfight. I won't say it's a meaningless metric, but it's definitely angels dancing on pinheads level metric. Again, staying in the realm of common duty calibers for handguns, and given the body's ability to swell and compensate for damaged tissue short term it's not a measurement that is going to effect incapacitation in any meaningful way. I think this is pretty well trodden ground on PF and I won't derail this thread with details, but if you care to search for it I'm sure you'll find it in the ammo section.

That seems to be the group think. Yet the numbers say otherwise 1.65x and 2.11x are extremely statistically significant numbers not a "small difference" not "all equal", that would indicate less rounds on target needed, and perhaps more importantly I expect a difference of "Re-animations" that take place when bad guy goes down from "hemorage shock" ie BP loss physiological changes the body compensates after being down a few seconds and they sit up to shoot or get back up. I don't see that happening like it does with so many 9mm hits already absorbed....if those hits were .40 or .45 hsts based on 1.65x and 2.11x.

That is derailing a bit, and certainly fighting with enough people. But, the numbers, and ALL the Shootings now on video mostly with 9mm of BGs taking 4-12 shots...going down...and getting back up...I think that says not enough Tissue Crush/blood loss has been done in those short condensed time frames. People don't want to let go of what the IN notions and hearsay of the time were. I think it's time for further evaluation. No pistol is a 12 gauge w Buckshot or over .30 caliber rifle w good ammo. But they ARE NOT EQUAL or expansion wouldn't matter. More Expansion More Better if adequate penetration still achieved.

A lot of bullets. Check. A lot of bigger bullets better. I think so once you are a decently proficient shooter. You can train with multiple calibers but carry big. It's finding the platforms you like in the weight you will carry or the best selection for duty. I'm over the 9mm group think, even though today I carried 63 rounds of 9mm. Not at work it's now Big primary starting w a .4 same 9mm Bug backup. I can carry my own at work but that requires new retention holster. My 9mm work choice has been 4.5 Polygonal barrel plus p plus hotness. So it's retention holsters I like that is a factor.

IMO

These numbers are Statistically Significant.

14 rds of .45 hst In Gun can do 112.42 Total Tissue Crush or TTC (I give here because of platform choices 9 rounds .45 hst 72.27 Total TC cu in", 11 rounds .45 Total TC 88.33 cu in")

14 rds .40 HST 180 can do 87.92 cu inches Tissue Crush.
16 rounds of 180 HST in duty guns is 100.48 cu in" TC

compared to 16 rds 9mm 124 plus hst Only 60.8 TC
or 18 rounds of 9mm 124 plus p=68.4 cu in TC Total Available TC IN GUN. You could bump 9mm up w 147 hst or 124 plus p gold dot but not that much and shorter than 4" or at least shorter than 3.5" like in 3.1" Micro9mms I still think 124plus P will perform with more uniform expansion through partial bone hits where one side of bullet connects with bone but willing to discuss or hear from drgkr..

If you expand it to +1 mag off duty or +2 mags on duty it is exponentially greater still.

[Mas]

Right now, I'm usually either carrying a 16-shot 9mm, a 13 shot .45 (USP 45f), or 14 shot .45 (G21 Gen 4)-- and a 5 shot J frame in the pocket. There may come times in the not-so-far future where I may find myself in jurisdictions that only allow 10 rounds in the magazine, and I go back and forth on my options.

Mas , if you were forced to live in a 10 round state, would that change your approach to caliber at all? (that is to say, 10rds of 9mm vs 10rds of .45) In addition, where do you think a 12-13 shot .45 falls on this bell curve of probabilities in terms of being enough?

I spend more time than I'd like in ten-round states. Whether I carry 9mm or .45 there depends on different things. As an out-of-stater I can't replenish my ammo supply in California, so under the current law I take a Glock 26 or 1911 9mm because I can pack twice as much 115 grain as 230 grain within the eleven-pound ammo-in-baggage limit on commercial aircraft. If I'm driving and bringing my own ammo a .45 is somewhat more likely to be selected.

A 13-shot .45 is fine if it fits YOUR balance of perceived needs and testable skill set. Confidence and competence intertwine! If you are confident in your equipment you'll be less hesitant to use it when needed. The equipment that lets you do your best will in turn create more confidence born from competence. I've met three men who still beat themselves up for not engaging when they now feel they should have, because they didn't think their gun was up to the challenge (a Seecamp .32, a Colt .380, and a 2" J-frame .38.)

As I've said elsewhere, always carry spare ammo for three reasons. (1) There is a significant chance that you'll need to fire more shots than you might have expected. (Every gunfight is an aberration of the statistical norm; we'd be stupid to expect a "statistically average aberration of the statistics.") (2) It might be necessary to remediate a gun malfunction. (3) In a struggle for the gun, the opponent's hand may have hit the magazine release lever, leaving you with a single shot pistol or, with magazine disconnector, a no-shot pistol.

[Stephanie B]

More bullets is more better, you can't have too many unless you're swimming or on fire, but I think people get hung up on capacity without really understanding the time dynamic. My opinion is high round count competition games has given many folks an unrealistic idea of the value of capacity and an underappreciation for the value of time. In reality they don't just wait for you to shoot them and by the time you're transitioning to #3 he's already through the OODA loop and laying into you if he's willing to stand and fight. The ability to draw and shoot on the *fast move* is significantly more useful for your survival than the ability to transition from target to target while staying planted, IMO, but regardless you'll need a hell of a lot of luck on your side if you have multiple dedicated opponents willing to fight it out with you.

One of the few heartburns I have with competition is when I get to a shooting point on a stage and there are four targets. The tendency is to double-tap each one in turn. That's great for gamer-mode, but I suspect in anything resembling a real fight, BG#4 will shoot you. It's probably better to shoot on boarding house rules ("everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds") as bullet wounds will likely disrupt most people's OODA loops.

The other thing is that a lot of people don't use cover, they're standing in clear view of the targets while reloading. I'm trying to be mindful of that.

[SwampDweller]

I spend more time than I'd like in ten-round states. Whether I carry 9mm or .45 there depends on different things. As an out-of-stater I can't replenish my ammo supply in California, so under the current law I take a Glock 26 or 1911 9mm because I can pack twice as much 115 grain as 230 grain within the eleven-pound ammo-in-baggage limit on commercial aircraft. If I'm driving and bringing my own ammo a .45 is somewhat more likely to be selected.

A 13-shot .45 is fine if it fits YOUR balance of perceived needs and testable skill set. Confidence and competence intertwine! If you are confident in your equipment you'll be less hesitant to use it when needed. The equipment that lets you do your best will in turn create more confidence born from competence. I've met three men who still beat themselves up for not engaging when they now feel they should have, because they didn't think their gun was up to the challenge (a Seecamp .32, a Colt .380, and a 2" J-frame .38.)

As I've said elsewhere, always carry spare ammo for three reasons. (1) There is a significant chance that you'll need to fire more shots than you might have expected. (Every gunfight is an aberration of the statistical norm; we'd be stupid to expect a "statistically average aberration of the statistics.") (2) It might be necessary to remediate a gun malfunction. (3) In a struggle for the gun, the opponent's hand may have hit the magazine release lever, leaving you with a single shot pistol or, with magazine disconnector, a no-shot pistol.

Never thought about the weight limit of ammo baggage on commercial aircraft, that makes sense.

It kind of annoys me because there are other pistols I'd rather shoot better and have more confidence in, but for some reason with the G21, I am able to call my shots to a frighteningly accurate degree and find it very easy to get good hits with. Where my split times in Bill Drills with a G19 are in the .24-.27 range, my splits with the G21 are in the .28-.31 range, however, I am able to get good hits more reliably and closer together with the G21. I'm not sure why, as I've been purposefully shooting my G19 more than anything else in an effort to remedy this, but it is what it is. Thusly, this big chunky .45 gives me the most confidence in my ability to make good hits when it might count. I just can't imagine the small difference in split times causing me to get "kilt in the streetz" compared to accuracy. Obviously by my numbers I'm far from a pro shooter and definitely on the lower end of proficiency on this forum, the numbers don't lie. The other advantage of the G19 is holding 16 rounds instead of 14 rounds, but at that point, perhaps it is splitting hairs?

The same applies to shooting 9mm Glock vs USP 45f, but to a lesser degree and the difference in splits is a bit greater. I theorize that it may have something to do with the larger grip or overall size of the G21/USP, but I'm not sure. In terms of G17 vs G19, I'm not able to discern any significant difference in performance during Bill Drills.

I feel I should point out that my confidence has very little to do with 9mm vs .45 using quality ammunition.

[BehindBlueI's]

These numbers are Statistically Significant.


...if you assume a spherical cow.

I'm not going to debate the math because it's not indicative of who prevails in a gun fight. I think most everyone in gun culture is aware of: https://www.police1.com/officer-shootings/articles/why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job-clGBbLYpnqqHxwMq/ How much tissue was destroyed without effect? When talking handgun wounding, how much tissue is destroyed doesn't matter in the time allotment for a gun fight, what tissue is destroyed is.

Shots fired totals have gone up, just as they did when departments transitioned from .38 revolvers to semi-automatic pistols. We don't have the advantage of BWC footage from those days, but my belief both then and now is total shots fired is a function of how long it takes someone to work through the OODA loop vs the split times they are shooting at. Shorter triggers on guns with lighter recoil mean more bullets fired per second but no ability to think faster and recognize the threat is no longer threatening. When working my own cases and reviewing video, and sometimes attending autopsies if relevant, I quickly learned that total number of shots fired vs total number of shots "needed" were often not the same. Example, 1st shot visibly impacts the target, autopsy reveals in penetrated and broke his spine, video corroborates he goes weak kneed and staggers for a bit before falling down partially behind a vehicle. Shooter continues to fire. Total rounds "needed" was one, the first hit. The additional shots increase the number of shots fired and the time shots were fired but had no effect in the outcome.

Quite simply put, what you dismiss as "groupthink" is based on real world observation. The experiment has been done. Given the large number of departments and agencies that have transitioned, if 9mm gave bad guys longer times to act it would increase the chances bad guys had of causing harm. Yet there has been no statistically relevant change in percentage of officers prevailing or losing once caliber swaps occurred. This is as close to a controlled study as you can have in the field, same department vs same department stats. Same officers, same training, same bad guy population, etc. I can carry any caliber I choose from .38/.380 to .45 and am not restricted to 'common duty caliber'. I can carry .45 Colt +P or .44 Magnum should I choose. Given my literal hundreds of cases worked as primary, and thousands as assisting or as supervisor, autopsy results, observing wounds in the field, as well as formal education on the topic I am completely comfortable with carrying any of the common duty calibers and know to take a long gun whenever possible.

[BWT]

Everyone keeps mentioning commandos. 50% of my business these days is closed coursework. I can assure everyone that white side SOF doesn’t shoot as well as your average training junkie who pays for 2-3 classes a year.

So,

I was thinking something and waffled on saying it. But this post encouraged me to say it.

Commando’s are confident in themselves based on their experiences and so are some folks here who have “been there and done that” to quote Trooper. I think we really really really need to hone in on confident. I’m going to cross a threshold and ask a question. What is that confidence based on? Is it based on their accuracy and consistency with performance with guns and maintaining that proficiency as they’ve transitioned out *OR* is it based on the fact they’ve seen violence and prepared for violence a lot professionally and feel comfortable with it. What I’m honing in on is - these guys do train ups for weeks / months before deployment and at the highest levels they’re shooting thousands of rounds all the time. After they retire/exit the military are they maintaining that skill? I’m going to tell you I have been capable in life built confidence based on that years pass I haven’t done it in years feel just as confident and go and do the thing again and I suck and my performance wasn’t what I thought it would be. Confidence could mean performance or confidence could mean that person’s disappointment in their own performance.

So with all the above in mind - I take advice and opinions from those individuals as a valid data point but I don’t make my decisions on that criteria. Does that make sense? I also keep it in mind to get my own butt up and dry fire and go to the gym. Because if I don’t maintain capability - it doesn’t matter if I used to be able to do X,Y, or Z. Ronnie Coleman was winning Mr. Olympia competitions succinctly and for years. Now he’s on a walker.

What also makes sense to me is to Glenn’s point prepare for a dude with body armor or a long shot (thus using more rounds at range if I miss). Thus full size handgun, reload, and a RDS are my answer to that.

I don’t think the small gun is invalid and I do think people will be extremely unlikely to need a gun for self-defense. But! I figure prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I would most strongly consider people’s opinions whose concerns mirror your own and examine how they prepare for those concerns then ask why.

Just my $.02 cents.

ETA: I would also remind everyone that Commandos also re-do workups every time before deployments which is weeks or months of preparation before an event because skills fade and people forget stuff. They don’t just go “oh this guys had a work up on this once in his career and should be good”. Delta, etc. are just always shooting / training and being tested and evaluated (Kyle even brings that up).

I’d go so far as to ask - are any of us testing and evaluating ourselves for failure on a consistent basis? I’m not on any kind of consistent basis.

My point with all of this is - I think we have to be careful with how we take advice and how we give advice based on someone else’s qualifications.

[CWM11B]

Everyone keeps mentioning commandos. 50% of my business these days is closed coursework. I can assure everyone that white side SOF doesn’t shoot as well as your average training junkie who pays for 2-3 classes a year.

This. Right. Here.

There is iron in these words.

[SouthNarc]

So,

I was thinking something and waffled on saying it. But this post encouraged me to say it.

Commando’s are confident in themselves based on their experiences and so are some folks here who have “been there and done that” to quote Trooper. I think we really really really need to hone in on confident. I’m going to cross a threshold and ask a question. What is that confidence based on? Is it based on their accuracy and consistency with performance with guns and maintaining that proficiency as they’ve transitioned out *OR* is it based on the fact they’ve seen violence and prepared for violence a lot professionally and feel comfortable with it. What I’m honing in on is - these guys do train ups for weeks / months before deployment and at the highest levels they’re shooting thousands of rounds all the time. After they retire/exit the military are they maintaining that skill? I’m going to tell you I have been capable in life built confidence based on that years pass I haven’t done it in years feel just as confident and go and do the thing again and I suck and my performance wasn’t what I thought it would be. Confidence could mean performance or confidence could mean that person’s disappointment in their own performance.

So with all the above in mind - I take advice and opinions from those individuals as a valid data point but I don’t make my decisions on that criteria. Does that make sense? I also keep it in mind to get my own butt up and dry fire and go to the gym. Because if I don’t maintain capability - it doesn’t matter if I used to be able to do X,Y, or Z. Ronnie Coleman was winning Mr. Olympia competitions succinctly and for years. Now he’s on a walker.

What also makes sense to me is to Glenn’s point prepare for a dude with body armor or a long shot (thus using more rounds at range if I miss). Thus full size handgun, reload, and a RDS are my answer to that.

I don’t think the small gun is invalid and I do think people will be extremely unlikely to need a gun for self-defense. But! I figure prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I would most strongly consider people’s opinions whose concerns mirror your own and examine how they prepare for those concerns then ask why.

Just my $.02 cents.

ETA: I would also remind everyone that Commandos also re-do workups every time before deployments which is weeks or months of preparation before an event because skills fade and people forget stuff. They don’t just go “oh this guys had a work up on this once in his career and should be good”. Delta, etc. are just always shooting / training and being tested and evaluated (Kyle even brings that up).

I’d go so far as to ask - are any of us testing and evaluating ourselves for failure on a consistent basis? I’m not on any kind of consistent basis.

My point with all of this is - I think we have to be careful with how we take advice and how we give advice based on someone else’s qualifications.



I think you've answered your own question. Confidence is based on two things. Competence and Experience.

Competence is achieved by acquiring requisite skill through repetition.

There's no safe way to acquire experience in a gunfight. The best we can do is train experientially against and around, living, breathing, thinking human beings with opposing will who feed us both malevolent and ambiguous intention, with freedom of action and movement.

[GAP]

I’m reading “statistically significant” thrown around a lot lately as a buzzword.. it has meaning. I’m still waiting to see the analysis in Minitab to help me decide between calibers.

If we are going to base decisions on p-value, why are we not all wearing helmets in cars? Hell, people don’t even wear them on motorcycles unless they have to. Perceived risk and convenience are weighed to help make all our decisions.

I personally carry for immediate threats to my family. It’s not my job to police the streets.. especially if my children are with me, it’s my job to get them out of the situation. I have no obligation to put my life on the line for people who do not value their own enough to carry.

For me, the right answer is a Glock 26 - small enough to conceal 365 days a year, good capacity, reliable, and great accuracy potential. To and from work it can be as simple as a j-frame since I have to look professional in NPEs. I am also a tall, athletic male, who fought professionally in combat sports. Those facts open up a few more options than someone who has physical limitations.

It’s not an A or B decision, there is C, D, E, etc. Do what makes you feel secure within your individual capabilities.

[SouthNarc]

Skill acquisition through repetition tends to be where 99% of people focus their energy. Two reasons for this: One it's simpler to attain and two it's measurable.

Measurable is comforting and everyone WANTS to be comforted in the idea that they have done due diligence in preparing themselves for a fight and can SEE their improvement.

What's the metric for talking one's way out of being shot with your own pistol? Whats the metric for awareness, verbal agility, and social literacy? What's the metric for applying cognitive friction through language to slow down motor processes so one can draw on a drawn pistol? I've talked my way out of being shot in the face and approached that same person who was holding a gun under my chin a day later, and bought crack cocaine from them.

Super interesting to me what people focus on.

[BWT]

I think you've answered your own question. Confidence is based on two things. Competence and Experience.

Competence is achieved by acquiring requisite skill through repetition.

There's no safe way to acquire experience in a gunfight. The best we can do is train experientially against and around, living, breathing, thinking human beings with opposing will who feed us both malevolent and ambiguous intention, with freedom of action and movement.

I like it!

I have a Clinch Pick on the Christmas list and I also do think I’d like a class at some point. By the way… being a Paul Blart church cop (I help out with a safety team I’m not a cop and have no ambitions or delusions of grandeur - I’m a glorified hall monitor with a radio) twice a month, but do you have a class on pre-fight indicators on any platform?

I think to use your example and to simplify lots of my own thoughts. I think lots of the Commando’s confidence comes from experience and I think competence is case by case especially the longer they’ve been out of service and should be treated as such. That’s what I was trying to say in that dissertation above.

I also maintain that service (and how recent it is) isn’t the end all be all. There are guys who are retired who still keep pushing it and are asked to go back and train the guys doing it now. There are guys who retire and go into a completely different industry and don’t have an interest in maintaining that competence or carry a gun at all anymore.

That’s my beef and what my rambling was trying to do is practically guys (more often than not the commando in question) take the words and use them to beat up other folks with it. I’m trying to bridge the gap and explain this so it stops being used as a method of discourse.

[rob_s]

One of the few heartburns I have with competition is when I get to a shooting point on a stage and there are four targets. The tendency is to double-tap each one in turn. That's great for gamer-mode, but I suspect in anything resembling a real fight, BG#4 will shoot you. It's probably better to shoot on boarding house rules ("everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds") as bullet wounds will likely disrupt most people's OODA loops.

The other thing is that a lot of people don't use cover, they're standing in clear view of the targets while reloading. I'm trying to be mindful of that.




There is iron in these words.

While the above two quotes aren't part of the same string, I can't help but think of Josie Wales here.

I think there's a point of consideration around identifying the biggest threat, and I think it's unlikely that a normal Joe, going about normal Joe business, is going to be presented with 4 identically threatening threats.

Skip to 30-second mark if it doesn't do it for you.

https://youtu.be/-TjI7giA93g?t=30

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Some folks don't know what statistical significance means. They are conflating with a difference that has some meaningful or practical effect on the phenomena under study. Statistical significance only means that a detected difference, correlation or some other statistical measures has a lower probability of occurring by chance based on a probability criterion that is chosen (based on the risk of error ratios, deemed appropriate to make sure the effect may be valid or to get you published). The efficacy of what you are studying in the real world has another set of metrics. There is a tremendous debate in the research world over the old null hypothesis testing and the measures of efficacy.

The differences in diameter in bullets is not an issue for statistical significance testing. Whether their impact has differences not due to chance is the significance issue. Whether the difference is important in an efficacy sense is the next issue and uses other metrics. One can have a significant difference that is useless in efficacy.

That being said, Stephanie - do you really want to start DA STREET argument about the gun games again? Oh, no! As two SMEs I know, have said, they have become track meets where you shoot a bit after you rehearse.

This is a great thread, BTW. I will admit that yesterday, some constraints led me to carry my 432 with a speed strip. That's because of dress constraints.

[SouthNarc]

While the above two quotes aren't part of the same string, I can't help but think of Josie Wales here.

I think there's a point of consideration around identifying the biggest threat, and I think it's unlikely that a normal Joe, going about normal Joe business, is going to be presented with 4 identically threatening threats.

Skip to 30-second mark if it doesn't do it for you.

https://youtu.be/-TjI7giA93g?t=30

Granted it's fiction but I agree Rob, that's a great example of things that are important that are rarely, if ever addressed in training or discussions. Instead we fetishize time and magazine capacity.

Those are fairly freshman discussions and one reason I read here more than actually participate. I would rather have grad school conversations.

[Stephanie B]

That being said, Stephanie - do you really want to start DA STREET argument about the gun games again? Oh, no! As two SMEs I know, have said, they have become track meets where you shoot a bit after you rehearse.

Not really. Any sort of thing like that, where people compete, is going to drift towards the gamers. There's no way of stopping it, and I'm not even going to suggest trying. It might be fun to have a stage where nobody gets a free look; you have to make ready, come around a corner and then start shooting.

But I'm not going to be competitive at those games. I look at them as a way of testing/improving how I run carry guns (though I will substitute a 4" K frame for a 2.75" when I have a suspicion that I'm going to have to try and drop plates at forty yards.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

True. To return to capacity issues, the thing that stood out to me in local USPSA, is the folks have a horror of going to slide lock. Thus, they rehearse the stage to basically figure out how to shoot 8 rounds, 4 x 2 double taps and drop the mag for a reload without slide lock to save the time of having to rack or hit the slide release. Planning the reloads is a major part of the conga line. That has no reality, I would think but it's part of the game in an unrealistic scenario, so what.

It is funny though that people were doing it in the carry gun match with the little guys. If it's a carry match - doing gaming reloads seems silly. You are going to shoot to slide lock while in the fight.

Hark back to the IDPA tactical reload debate, tactical order vs. tactical sequence, cover vs. fault lines - just catering to games. I just get draw, get on target, shooting and hits. The rest of the track meet is not in the ability set of the arthritic 75 year old.

Anybody serious has taken training with realistic handgun techniques and quality FOF. Did that as I took this seriously.

Oh, Clusterfrack and I were discussing the issue of two slightly slower As vs a faster A and a C. Since the Cs are peripheral and the one A is not guaranteed a stop (nor are two As, actually), does that influence capacity? If you are planning on a crappy hit for speed, you might need more or a return to a better hit. Actually, some of the center line Cs might be a good place to shoot, given some more realistic target based on anatomy.

Will 10 rounds be law of land in the blue states? Probably for years to come until Super Justice Clarence figures out how to write an unambiguous decision (snark!).

Same old DA STREET!

[blues]

Super interesting to me what people focus on.

Everyone should have to do a stint undercover to see how things evolve when they don't necessarily have the "say" in the continuum of events.

I have argued the question at length of whether good UC agents are made or born, but there is no question that skills can be honed and enhanced. I think you've brought a rare set of skills to the table, Craig.


ETA: Verbal judo is a very, very important skill. It along with the right mindset can make all the difference in what might be shaping up to be a very bad day otherwise.

[SouthNarc]

Everyone should have to do a stint undercover to see how things evolve when they don't necessarily have the "say" in the continuum of events.

I have argued the question at length of whether good UC agents are made or born, but there is no question that skills can be honed and enhanced. I think you've brought a rare set of skills to the table, Craig.


ETA: Verbal judo is a very, very important skill. It along with the right mindset can make all the difference in what might be shaping up to be a very bad day otherwise.

I don’t know how rare the skills themselves are buddy as we’ve both known some stellar U/Cs in our day. I think it’s rare for those people to teach people cogent lessons from those experiences that are relatable to average people.👍🏽

[Trooper224]

Skill acquisition through repetition tends to be where 99% of people focus their energy. Two reasons for this: One it's simpler to attain and two it's measurable.

Measurable is comforting and everyone WANTS to be comforted in the idea that they have done due diligence in preparing themselves for a fight and can SEE their improvement.

What's the metric for talking one's way out of being shot with your own pistol? Whats the metric for awareness, verbal agility, and social literacy? What's the metric for applying cognitive friction through language to slow down motor processes so one can draw on a drawn pistol? I've talked my way out of being shot in the face and approached that same person who was holding a gun under my chin a day later, and bought crack cocaine from them.

Super interesting to me what people focus on.

Word.

For the vast majority of my career, I was able to avoid any use of force by using my mouth. Having the ability to talk someone into compliance, while making them think it's their idea, is an invaluable skill. I wish it could be taught in academies.

My old life as a long haired actor really helped me throughout my career, both on the street as well as the court room. I've always been fascinated by human behavior, so I've been a lifelong people watcher too. Sizing an individual up and being whomever they need you to be usually played dividends in compliance.

Hardware and its associated metrics are the easiest thing to teach, but are actually just the tip of the iceberg.

[Totem Polar]

It might be fun to have a stage where nobody gets a free look; you have to make ready, come around a corner and then start shooting.

But I'm not going to be competitive at those games. I look at them as a way of testing/improving how I run carry guns (though I will substitute a 4" K frame for a 2.75" when I have a suspicion that I'm going to have to try and drop plates at forty yards.

The weekly fun shoots that I’ve been doing are sort of like that, at least for me. Due to my work schedule, I typically get there when I can, pay for my 3 runs, and then have to drop into the rotation without any sort of walk through. I can count rounds by sound, and it’s pretty obvious to see which side of the bay people are starting on (or if they start in the center, and which way the majority go), but I typically only have a target count by ear, starting point, and direction of travel when I do my first run. It’s not unusual for me to pick up 20 seconds (or more, depending on the wheelie reloads) between run one and run two. That first run is always a doozy—but like you—I’m not going out there with my DAO K frame to be the top scorer.

The tech shooter/gamer vs tactical/FOF verbal dichotomy is as false now as the stand up vs grappling dichotomy was in the 90s and early 2000s. The correct answer is “yes.” I’m really enjoying JCN’s stuff on chasing .2 splits. It’s not going to stop me from doing another ECQC though. JMO.

Speaking of:

I think it’s rare for those people to teach people cogent lessons from those experiences that are relatable to average people.👍🏽

I have no doubt that there are others who could pass on the skills, but you’re the only one I’ve heard of who does. Relatable, and super-valuable. Just reiterating.
:)

[BehindBlueI's]

Skill acquisition through repetition tends to be where 99% of people focus their energy. Two reasons for this: One it's simpler to attain and two it's measurable.

Measurable is comforting and everyone WANTS to be comforted in the idea that they have done due diligence in preparing themselves for a fight and can SEE their improvement.

What's the metric for talking one's way out of being shot with your own pistol? Whats the metric for awareness, verbal agility, and social literacy? What's the metric for applying cognitive friction through language to slow down motor processes so one can draw on a drawn pistol? I've talked my way out of being shot in the face and approached that same person who was holding a gun under my chin a day later, and bought crack cocaine from them.

Super interesting to me what people focus on.

I think some of it was people focus on but also what people choose to discuss. It's tough to do a deep dive on OODA loop interruption, making yourself harder to shoot by humanizing, etc compared to really getting into minutiae that's more...concrete, I suppose? When I bothered to teach I did a lot of body language stuff, talking and setting expectations to interrupt your opponents' OODA loop, etc but how much of that can you get across in the format of short written missives on a forum? It's so much better suited to live instruction with video from actual events, IMO, whereas you can discuss some minor difference in expansion of a given cartridge so much more effectively in these confines.

We've discussed the limitations of simunitions due to the removal of social cues, pre-attack indicators, and greatly reduced decision making, for example. Your post is a good reminder of those sorts of discussions for those who've participated and a catalyst to learn for those who haven't.

[BillSWPA]

Skill acquisition through repetition tends to be where 99% of people focus their energy. Two reasons for this: One it's simpler to attain and two it's measurable.

Measurable is comforting and everyone WANTS to be comforted in the idea that they have done due diligence in preparing themselves for a fight and can SEE their improvement.

What's the metric for talking one's way out of being shot with your own pistol? Whats the metric for awareness, verbal agility, and social literacy? What's the metric for applying cognitive friction through language to slow down motor processes so one can draw on a drawn pistol? I've talked my way out of being shot in the face and approached that same person who was holding a gun under my chin a day later, and bought crack cocaine from them.

Super interesting to me what people focus on.

Thank you for some excellent perspective.

[SwampDweller]

Skill acquisition through repetition tends to be where 99% of people focus their energy. Two reasons for this: One it's simpler to attain and two it's measurable.

Measurable is comforting and everyone WANTS to be comforted in the idea that they have done due diligence in preparing themselves for a fight and can SEE their improvement.

What's the metric for talking one's way out of being shot with your own pistol? Whats the metric for awareness, verbal agility, and social literacy? What's the metric for applying cognitive friction through language to slow down motor processes so one can draw on a drawn pistol? I've talked my way out of being shot in the face and approached that same person who was holding a gun under my chin a day later, and bought crack cocaine from them.

Super interesting to me what people focus on.

I can't even imagine the kind of situation you allude to that I could reference, though I think I might get it to some degree. When I was a dumb teenage student pilot, I would conduct regular landings over and over until I could nail it 100% every time. Then it'd turn to short field or soft field landings, and engine-out, engine-fire/emergency landings, no big deal. That's all the Private Pilot requirements call for, really. But then after training was completed and I was in the seat left of the FAA designated examiner, he'd have me do all I'd been trained to do, even emergency procedures, but then would throw complete curveballs like landing without certain instruments that were normally taken for granted, or having a portion of the windshield covered up by "a passenger's vomit" (something that actually happened to him, apparently). It turned out to be as much of a flight lesson as it was a check ride to receive my pilot's license, and I'm thankful. I hope I have that kind of experience in this realm as well.

I guess what I mean to say is, there's a lot more to every skillset than technical skills, something I'm only beginning to learn with defensive firearm use.

[FrankB]

I can't even imagine the kind of situation you allude to that I could reference, though I think I might get it to some degree. When I was a dumb teenage student pilot, I would conduct regular landings over and over until I could nail it 100% every time. Then it'd turn to short field or soft field landings, and engine-out, engine-fire/emergency landings, no big deal. That's all the Private Pilot requirements call for, really. But then after training was completed and I was in the seat left of the FAA designated examiner, he'd have me do all I'd been trained to do, even emergency procedures, but then would throw complete curveballs like landing without certain instruments that were normally taken for granted, or having a portion of the windshield covered up by "a passenger's vomit" (something that actually happened to him, apparently). It turned out to be as much of a flight lesson as it was a check ride to receive my pilot's license, and I'm thankful. I hope I have that kind of experience in this realm as well.

I guess what I mean to say is, there's a lot more to every skillset than technical skills, something I'm only beginning to learn with defensive firearm use.

I mentioned running through scenarios while in public, and at home. I was watching a Blue Angels documentary, and they sat with their eyes closed at a conference table, visualizing their entire routine. I don’t do that with my eyes closed, but I do visualize often.

My wife and I were at the range yesterday, and she’s happy mag dumping her Glock 19. I try to get her to have a goal before we get there, but she’s more interested in hitting an 8” target as quickly as possible. My revolvers don’t use magazines, and I didn’t realize the mag bag was left at home. This presented an opportunity drive a few points home! I told her I’d load the single mag, and charge the pistol. She knows about tap-rack-bang, but rarely uses it. I pulled the trigger on an empty chamber, and put two rounds in the mag. She heard a click, and then pulled the trigger again, and I yelled tap, rack, bang. She did it slowly. Next mag started with a dead trigger, and with the magazine sticking out 1/4”. She racked the slide, but didn’t seat the mag. She went through 100 rounds with variations on that theme. She was actually good at the end.

[Joe Mac]

As an out-of-stater I can't replenish my ammo supply in California, so under the current law I take a Glock 26 or 1911 9mm because I can pack twice as much 115 grain as 230 grain within the eleven-pound ammo-in-baggage limit on commercial aircraft. If I'm driving and bringing my own ammo a .45 is somewhat more likely to be selected.


A G26 is my out-of-state pistol of choice, whether flying or on a road trip (in either case, it's accompanied by something smaller for pocket holster use). The 26 is a very capable fighting pistol, I need not calculate in advance whether I'll be in states/cities with mag restrictions, and just in case the zombie apocalypse kicks off while I'm away from home, additional mags can be sourced anywhere...

[WDR]

I recall back in the early days of this forum, TLG spent alot of time shooting 2" dots.

I also recall someone mentioning the viability of head shots as the default target. Also the percentage of headshots that result in immediate incapacitation. The recipient may get back up, but there's always whack a mole. At least that's how I remember it.

Forgive me if its already been mentioned here, as I've bounced around this thread a bit, and not read every post, but I recall TLG had a strong preference for 10+ rounds in a gun carried for defensive purposes. He felt 10 was really a minimum, and wanted more if at all possible. One of the later posts he made before his passing was him exploring extended base pads for Glocks mags, IIRC. And he really was a stickler for first round hits on small targets, hence the focus on the "press out" etc.

I personally prefer an auto with 10+ rounds, and a reload, often with more capacity than what is in the gun. G19 and a G17 mag reload is my normal carry. I do sometimes carry a J-frame, but its not ideal for anything be a single opponent sort of fight. I carry reloads for that too, both speed loaders and strips, depending on attire.

[SwampDweller]

Forgive me if its already been mentioned here, as I've bounced around this thread a bit, and not read every post, but I recall TLG had a strong preference for 10+ rounds in a gun carried for defensive purposes. He felt 10 was really a minimum, and wanted more if at all possible. One of the later posts he made before his passing was him exploring extended base pads for Glocks mags, IIRC. And he really was a stickler for first round hits on small targets, hence the focus on the "press out" etc.

I personally prefer an auto with 10+ rounds, and a reload, often with more capacity than what is in the gun. G19 and a G17 mag reload is my normal carry. I do sometimes carry a J-frame, but its not ideal for anything be a single opponent sort of fight. I carry reloads for that too, both speed loaders and strips, depending on attire.

Sorry to ask, but if you happen to know where to send me to look, can you point me in the right direction of TLG's "press out" thing? I do remember reading about that sometime in the 2014 time period (I think?) but I haven't the slightest way to search for it. I was turned onto Todd with his tests on the P30 and HK45, along with his and DocGKR's posts on M4carbine. I'm a newbie here though, and here to learn.

[WDR]

Sorry to ask, but if you happen to know where to send me to look, can you point me in the right direction of TLG's "press out" thing? I do remember reading about that sometime in the 2014 time period (I think?) but I haven't the slightest way to search for it. I was turned onto Todd with his tests on the P30 and HK45, along with his and DocGKR's posts on M4carbine. I'm a newbie here though, and here to learn.

https://pistol-training.com/the-press-out/

That should get you started. It was an ongoing discussion back in the day. I mostly lurked and read back then. I did use the technique to eventually shoot a lot of sub 6 second FAST drills (and a few sub 5 second ones). I'm not sure how the mainstreaming of red dots on handguns fits in with these ideas, but the important thing to gather from what he was striving for is that first shot speed and accuracy is important.

No mater how fast you cast your first lot, and how many you have onboard after that, you can't miss fast enough or often enough to win a fight.

[S Jenks]

https://pistol-training.com/the-press-out/

https://pistol-training.com/the-press-out-2/

https://pistol-training.com/all-or-nothing-press-outs/

ETA: WDR beat me to it.

[SwampDweller]

https://pistol-training.com/the-press-out/

That should get you started. It was an ongoing discussion back in the day. I mostly lurked and read back then. I did use the technique to eventually shoot a lot of sub 6 second FAST drills (and a few sub 5 second ones). I'm not sure how the mainstreaming of red dots on handguns fits in with these ideas, but the important thing to gather from what he was striving for is that first shot speed and accuracy is important.

No mater how fast you cast your first lot, and how many you have onboard after that, you can't miss fast enough or often enough to win a fight.

Thank you, that's a big help. It's already sent me down a rabbit hole searching usernames associated with him to read discussions, and I feel like I'm delving into historical archives. To me, this stuff's like gold.

[SwampDweller]

https://pistol-training.com/the-press-out/

https://pistol-training.com/the-press-out-2/

https://pistol-training.com/all-or-nothing-press-outs/

ETA: WDR beat me to it.

Not at all beat, all archives are incredibly useful to me. Thank you.

[Navyguns]

I understand the point but I don’t want every pistol to be a high capacity 9mm Luger with a rail.

[JAD]

It would appear we each must decide on our own salvation.

A quibble but a good one: the actual quote is κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe), which is pretty universally translated as ‘work out’ his own salvation. ‘Deciding’ is nice, but Philippians points to a process, and action, which is pretty applicable to the way a lot of us approach this and other defense-related questions.

[ssc45]

A quibble but a good one: the actual quote is κατεργάζεσθε (katergazesthe), which is pretty universally translated as ‘work out’ his own salvation. ‘Deciding’ is nice, but Philippians points to a process, and action, which is pretty applicable to the way a lot of us approach this and other defense-related questions.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I never knew anything about the above, but will change my rendition. It was just something I have said for years. I wish I could remember if it was something I read or just something I stated. At least now, I have a reference.

Cheers, Steve

[Nephrology]

Decent video but Mas gets an C- in pharmacology on this one...

[JAD]

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I never knew anything about the above, but will change my rendition. It was just something I have said for years. I wish I could remember if it was something I read or just something I stated. At least now, I have a reference.

Cheers, Steve

It first got quoted to me by Jim Higginbotham. We were probably talking about 9 versus 45 or something -- this was in the era between coconuts and our current Metaverse -- and I had not spent a lot of time with St. Paul or any much of the bible. It's a neat phrase for sure. It's part of a short essay on humility, which is also a lot like my experience with pistolcraft.

[feudist]

I read an article by Ayoob years(decades) ago about bullet effectiveness re velocity, caliber, weight and construction.
The money quote stuck with me: "Everything is something, but nothing is everything."
I think it can be extended to cover all aspects of close combat. Reliability, controllability, on board capacity, reload speed, size efficiency, mode of carry and constraints(like NPE), likelihood of being targeted for attack vs random predatory attacks(women in bad DV situations, crime witnesses, cops, owners of high volume cash businesses) health issues and so on.
Each attribute of a pistol is only one part of the puzzle, and too great an emphasis on one attribute may fatally compromise others . For example, at each end of the spectrum: too great a concern for stopping power being resolved with a .44 magnum loaded heavy and hot by someone with arthritic hands, or someone constrained by dress codes only owning a Roland Special.
No one ever wished for a less capable pistol in a fight, but lots of people have wished for any handgun when their very capable gun was left in the glove box or at home.
You pays your nickel and you takes your chances.

[Warped Mindless]

I can help but think the sig 365 platform has kind of solved the old size vs capability problem.

Traditionally a bigger gun is more capable and has more capacity but is more of a hassle to carry for many.

The 365 series solves that IMO for many people. Want to go super small? Carry the standard one with a 17rd reload.

Go with an XL and you have the best of both worlds in a very shootable gun.

Or slap a macro grip on the xl and have a very capable gun in a package smaller than a G19.

[JAH 3rd]

In my LE days '76-'87 (between 2 depts.), I carried a model 19, then a 66. Initially carried ammo dump pouches, 12 rounds total. I eventually bought 2 Safariland speedloaders. Don't remember the part number, but when reloading, the center pin of the cylinder activated the release of the ammo into the cylinder.

I was also a flashlight nerd. Ended up buying my personal Streamlight flashlight with in-vehicle charging system. It lit up the night really well.

LE today, for the most part, has standardized equipment through out the ranks. More training and better equipment too. I applaud anyone who chooses LE as a career. To be honest, I wouldn't have the patience to deal with folks today.

[FrankB]

I can help but think the sig 365 platform has kind of solved the old size vs capability problem.


I mentioned that I still own a Glock 19, but didn’t mention the 3 Sig P365 pistols in my safe. I carried one of this for quite a while, but the revolvers are just more appealing to me in terms of aesthetics and shape. Carrying a 40 Oz 4” 6 round revolver could seem kind of silly when compared to the P365, but I really don’t feel the (considerable) extra weight while carrying.
🤷🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼🤷🏼🤠

[Stephanie B]

then would throw complete curveballs like landing without certain instruments that were normally taken for granted, or having a portion of the windshield covered up by "a passenger's vomit" (something that actually happened to him, apparently).

I took a checkride at an FBO once time, where the CFI came out with some stuff and proceeded to cover everything on the panel of that Cessna except the oil pressure and temperature gauges. It was an interesting and valuable experience.

[RevolverJIM]

I took several rides with an FAA examiners years ago; passed them all first time around but the examiner taught me something valuable on each and every ride!

[TCinVA]

Forgive me if its already been mentioned here, as I've bounced around this thread a bit, and not read every post, but I recall TLG had a strong preference for 10+ rounds in a gun carried for defensive purposes. He felt 10 was really a minimum, and wanted more if at all possible. One of the later posts he made before his passing was him exploring extended base pads for Glocks mags, IIRC. And he really was a stickler for first round hits on small targets, hence the focus on the "press out" etc.


Todd liked capacity because even though his signature test includes a reload as part of the test, that test was a test of the skillsets he was going to work on in AFHF. He understood that speed reloads don't happen under fighting conditions the way they happen on a range. One of the things he would do in class is have someone else set up your magazines so you didn't know when a reload was coming to see what impact that had on your times. Surprise, surprise, it took longer to realize you were out of ammo when you didn't know when it was coming. Even longer if you were working with some sort of cognitive load like doing math to shoot the right number target on the PTC target or if someone set up your magazines for you on something like the Casino Drill.

There are an exceptionally tiny number of people on this planet who can deliver a 2 second reload in concealment gear. That number shrinks to almost zero when we factor in a reload they don't know is coming or that happens when they are loaded with something else to focus on. And 2 seconds is a long-ass time in a gunfight.

Todd was big on quantified performance with a handgun, but he also had lots of sense about the realities of fighting with a gun vs. competing with one. A lot of goofy shit has had GUNFIGHTING slapped on it to shield it against any sort of objective measurement that would reveal it as such. But there are still incredibly significant differences that exist and need to be accounted for, especially when teaching people who are looking to protect themselves vs. compete.

The "press out" is a good example of a technique that works because it works.

If we could get people to get a good grip on the gun from the draw and get it up in front of their eyes to shoot, the accuracy rate in shootings and fights would soar. The programs that produce the highest hit rates focus on training precisely those things.

Competition shooters running from competition rigs will tell you that their "index" draw is faster. I'm not a top level competitor so I don't argue with top level competitors about what top level competitors need to do in competition.

But in defensive use, an L shaped presentation with a lot of visual information about the gun going into the intended target is much, much more useful as living, breathing targets tend to move a hell of a lot more than competition targets and the background of said target tends to change rapidly. Our target area is smaller and tenths of a second are not as valuable as higher levels of precision in shot placement. It's a different form of shooting.

I use the press out in my draw, but not as Todd taught it anymore.

Todd essentially put the front sight on what he was intending to hit and rotated the rear sight up to where the front sight was. It fits in with the "front sight focus" doctrine. A couple of years ago at a Tim Herron class I realized that approach was really backwards.

Now when I present the gun, I get the gun level in front of my eye as quickly as possible so I can see through my rear sight window. Or optic. It makes the question of dots or irons essentially moot as the presentation gives you either sighting system in front of your eye sooner allowing you to "see" more and make a better shot.

Had Todd's evolution not been cut short by fighting with cancer, I'm certain he would have made the same change in his process, too.

[Clusterfrack]

I use the press out in my draw, but not as Todd taught it anymore.

Todd essentially put the front sight on what he was intending to hit and rotated the rear sight up to where the front sight was. It fits in with the "front sight focus" doctrine. A couple of years ago at a Tim Herron class I realized that approach was really backwards.

Now when I present the gun, I get the gun level in front of my eye as quickly as possible so I can see through my rear sight window. Or optic. It makes the question of dots or irons essentially moot as the presentation gives you either sighting system in front of your eye sooner allowing you to "see" more and make a better shot.

Had Todd's evolution not been cut short by fighting with cancer, I'm certain he would have made the same change in his process, too.

This is a valuable point. I see a lot of range theatrics involving the press out: "slow is smooth, smooth is... SLOW". Like really slow. Or a glacial press out with firing started in compression, with a shitty grip and recoil control.

[blues]

And don't outrun your headlights. Know WTF you are aiming at...and keep your finger off the trigger until it's go time.

Capacity and extra ammo are great...but situational awareness and recognition cannot be over-stressed. (I know this is nothing new to this crowd, but it can't be repeated enough, imho...and I hope I'll be forgiven for doing so.)

[Jim Watson]

A younger Mas once reported that 8-10 rounds seemed optimum; more than 6 a definite benefit, but a dozen or more leading to spraying.

[Clusterfrack]

...a dozen or more leading to spraying.

Maybe lack of training is what leads to spraying?

[blues]

Maybe lack of training is what leads to spraying?

I suppose spraying can be looked at from the angles of both firing more rounds than necessary as well as firing (somewhat) indiscriminately at the intended target.

I'm not going to opine on the training, since I'm out of the game...but a cursory review of so many LE shootings posted here and youtube demonstrate just how widespread such responses are.

By comparison, the cool levelheaded reaction by the officers who are masters of both their emotions and their duty weapons stand out in great relief from the norm.

There is as much to be learned from those who do not fire their weapons, as those who do. (Imho.)

[TCinVA]

A younger Mas once reported that 8-10 rounds seemed optimum; more than 6 a definite benefit, but a dozen or more leading to spraying.

Spraying is harder to do with a double action revolver.

Literally. The longer, heavier trigger pull limits how fast most people can press the trigger. It's not to say people never ran through their cylinder as fast as they could without effect, but it took more time to do it. That half second per shot cadence we've heard a lot about as a fighting methodology was sort of enforced by the equipment. About .30 is as fast as I can press through a DA trigger. My finger just doesn't move any faster. If I'm paying any attention at all to what I'm doing on the trigger, it goes to about 1/2 a second. Those times are cut in half on a striker-fired polymer gun.

Those tenths may not seem significant, but when they stack up it can be enough time for the limited processing power of the human mind in a novel situation to catch up to what's happening.

Similarly, the sheer weight of a DA revolver's trigger makes it harder to have a truly shit grip on the revolver and still successfully work the trigger to the point of ignition.

If you watch a lot of police body cam footage, you will see people presenting the gun to their chest or their chin with a bad grip and it's no wonder they struggle to make hits. Just getting the gun gripped and getting it up in front of their eyes would dramatically increase hit rates. But it doesn't seem like a lot of programs actually understand how to teach people to do that.

[WDR]

Thanks for your insight TCinVA ... I never knew Todd, but I read and lurked PF for a long time before I ever started posting, and I learned a lot from discussions here. I have always wondered what he'd think of the most recent things in the handgun world, and how he'd adapt to or with them. I wanted to touch on his thoughts about capacity and reloads in a fight, but I didn't want to go completely off memory and get things too wrong without going back and reading what he wrote. I vaguely remember a discussion about time in a fight, and more capacity giving you more time/votes/chances before you had to change your focus from shooting/moving to reloading/fixing.

I went digging for some of his old posts, and found these:

https://pistol-training.com/a-capacity-to-love/

https://pistol-training.com/enough-gun/

Some insights there. I remember his heartburn over the 9mm 1911 only having ten rounds. And his dislike for anything much smaller or lower capacity than a G26. He talks a bit about numbers and statistics in the second post. "If we really want to play a numbers game we can save ourselves a ton of money and effort and skip carrying altogether."

I always thought the FAST test was very good way to measure a lot of skills in a meager 6 rounds. Accuracy, speed, grip, reloads, draw, presentation, and vision, all in a few rounds and a few seconds. I still use it from time to time to check up on myself.

I agree with the comments about DA revolvers demanding (and forcing) a good grip, and slowing most folks down enough that it makes things a bit more deliberate. It's not a a bad thing, even if the world has mostly passed by revolvers, they still have value and teach us some things. Light weight DAO guns like a 442 are useful to me, particularly with a laser, to practice trigger work with. It's pretty hard to get everything right with a small light gun, and you can get good visual feedback on your trigger press with the laser, even sticking to dryfire. My 3" Model 60 weighs about as much as my Glock 19, but is a lot harder to shoot well with speed because of the longer heavier pull. The upside is that my shooting improves with Glocks, if I spend a little time shooting the 442 or 60, and really focus on grip and pulling the trigger without staging.

[FrankB]

It's been a theory of mine for quite a while that number of shots per engagement has gone up as a function of cyclical rate approaching a sewing machine but OODA loops not speeding up. A *lot* of these high round count events caught on camera are throwing lead at retreating or already downed suspects as the shooter catches up to the new reality.

Another Mic Drop! 👍👍👍👍

The Active Self Protection video posted earlier in this thread was about as cringy as it gets. The nearest guy was down and out, but the “good guy” went back to finish him off! My wife and I subscribe to, and support the “Police Activity” channel. We’ve seen shootouts with 40 rounds exchanged, and zero hits. A recent video showed the attack of a Baltimore woman by a man with a knife. Police showed up, and ended the attack with 2-3 rounds, but the officer continued to fire at the attacker, and then finished him off with an extra rounds to the chest. The woman was uninjured in the attack, so I don’t know that the psycho deserved to be executed.


https://youtu.be/I3oUjpmda7g

[TCinVA]

Thanks for your insight @TCinVA (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=4) ... I never knew Todd, but I read and lurked PF for a long time before I ever started posting, and I learned a lot from discussions here. I have always wondered what he'd think of the most recent things in the handgun world, and how he'd adapt to or with them. I wanted to touch on his thoughts about capacity and reloads in a fight, but I didn't want to go completely off memory and get things too wrong without going back and reading what he wrote. I vaguely remember a discussion about time in a fight, and more capacity giving you more time/votes/chances before you had to change your focus from shooting/moving to reloading/fixing.

I went digging for some of his old posts, and found these:

https://pistol-training.com/a-capacity-to-love/

https://pistol-training.com/enough-gun/

Some insights there. I remember his heartburn over the 9mm 1911 only having ten rounds. And his dislike for anything much smaller or lower capacity than a G26. He talks a bit about numbers and statistics in the second post. "If we really want to play a numbers game we can save ourselves a ton of money and effort and skip carrying altogether."


He often expressed it in terms of time. At 1/4 second per shot, a Glock 17 gives you 4.5 seconds of outgoing fire. In a situation where they are usually definitively resolved in 3-5 seconds, the ability to maintain outgoing fire for that long is a whole lot of opportunity to solve the problem in your favor. By contrast a J frame is 1.25 seconds of outgoing fire at the same pace. That leaves a whole lot more time with no offensive action possible from your gun. That's not a good thing.

Capacity is opportunity, ceteris paribus. Of course, nothing is ceteris paribus about fights. There are general trends that emerge but there are things we can't neatly quantify with statistics that also play a huge role in how things actually happen. But having the capacity to sustain 4.5 seconds of outgoing fire is a pretty good thing to have in your corner in those dynamic, multivariable situations.

Of course, Todd's statement of the numbers game in that context makes sense. For most of us the chances of needing our gun on any given day is fairly small. The second to last time I reached for my gun it was on a Christmas eve after I'd spent a significant chunk of the day with Todd at the NRA range and then a pho place nearby. At the time I was rather mad about it, but in retrospect how many people have the opportunity to literally practice the crucial skillsets (draw and shots to anatomically useful targets as quickly as possible) with a skilled coach literally a few hours before they actually need it?

I didn't even have to complete my draw. Had I laid hands on a J frame it probably would have been sufficient to handle the problem since the other guy decided he was late for choir practice as soon as he saw my hand hit my waistband. But in the moment I was rather glad I had my P30 on me because the fuckwit in the peacoat demanding money and any friends he had that I hadn't seen just yet probably didn't have enough skill or luck to deal with someone like me as long as I have bullets in my handgun.



I always thought the FAST test was very good way to measure a lot of skills in a meager 6 rounds. Accuracy, speed, grip, reloads, draw, presentation, and vision, all in a few rounds and a few seconds. I still use it from time to time to check up on myself.


It was literally done as a way for Todd to watch you perform all the skills he would be teaching in AFHF so he'd know where to coach you and could provide some sort of objective assessment to measure progress. The coins fueled marketing, but they were never the original focus of it. I watched people buy classes just to get a shot at the coin.

I told Todd he should introduce different colored wrist bands or something like belts in martial arts for how people performed on the FAST. I meant it as a joke, but he actually seriously considered it, at least over the chips and salsa at Chili's. People love that sort of thing.

Now damn near everybody has a coin or patch or something. Hell, even Dave Spaulding credits Todd for his trophy giveaway assessment idea. (Shoot Dave's drill clean in 2 seconds or less and you win the belt buckle. I focused on shooting it clean since nobody else in class had done so. 2.01 seconds. I spent too much time with Todd to let coins and belt buckles get in my head)

[revchuck38]

...the sheer weight of a DA revolver's trigger makes it harder to have a truly shit grip on the revolver and still successfully work the trigger to the point of ignition.

I gotta wonder if this is why I shoot revolvers better than autoloaders. I'm not wonderful with either, but I do suck less with the round gun.

[TCinVA]

Another Mic Drop! 👍👍👍👍

The Active Self Protection video posted earlier in this thread was about as cringy as it gets. The nearest guy was down and out, but the “good guy” went back to finish him off! My wife and I subscribe to, and support the “Police Activity” channel. We’ve seen shootouts with 40 rounds exchanged, and zero hits. A recent video showed the attack of a Baltimore woman by a man with a knife. Police showed up, and ended the attack with 2-3 rounds, but the officer continued to fire at the attacker, and then finished him off with an extra rounds to the chest. The woman was uninjured in the attack, so I don’t know that the psycho deserved to be executed.


https://youtu.be/I3oUjpmda7g

I don't think "executed" is the right term.

The reality of this stuff is that most of the people who need to shoot someone have never shot anyone before. For almost everyone who is going to have to do it, it's a completely novel experience. Good people following the law will almost always have far less experience of inflicting violence than the shitheads they need to inflict violence on. We can do a lot to prepare them before the fight but there's a lot of stuff that happens once it kicks off for real that distorts your perception inside of the event. It's entirely possible he didn't even realize the dude was down.

When people are under stress, they devolve. If you put them under unfamiliar levels of stress and complexity you can literally watch as the rational parts of their brain shut down and the angry walnut at the base of the brain takes over. (The amygdala) That part of your brain doesn't do rational thinking...and if you're fixated on finding the guy's vitals and putting bullets into it your body can be doing that well after the aggressive momentum from the other guy has stopped.

I don't think there was any intention to "execute" or even to really try and kill the guy. I just think the officer involved under the stress of the moment literally didn't see that the threat was over.

Maintaining the ability to stay in your rational mind under life or death stress is a rare trait to find innately in people, and even then we spend a lot of money and effort trying to find those people and train them how to behave properly under those circumstances in some professions.

Policing isn't one of them.

[TCinVA]

I gotta wonder if this is why I shoot revolvers better than autoloaders. I'm not wonderful with either, but I do suck less with the round gun.

It forces you to have your shit together a little more than a Glock.

A Glock will do anal in a public bathroom right after you swiped right.

A revolver at least requires you to buy dinner first.

[HeavyDuty]

It forces you to have your shit together a little more than a Glock.

A Glock will do anal in a public bathroom right after you swiped right.

A revolver at least requires you to buy dinner first.

That’s sig line material right there.

[Utm]

Another Mic Drop! 👍👍👍👍

The Active Self Protection video posted earlier in this thread was about as cringy as it gets. The nearest guy was down and out, but the “good guy” went back to finish him off! My wife and I subscribe to, and support the “Police Activity” channel. We’ve seen shootouts with 40 rounds exchanged, and zero hits. A recent video showed the attack of a Baltimore woman by a man with a knife. Police showed up, and ended the attack with 2-3 rounds, but the officer continued to fire at the attacker, and then finished him off with an extra rounds to the chest. The woman was uninjured in the attack, so I don’t know that the psycho deserved to be executed.


https://youtu.be/I3oUjpmda7g
The dude was actively trying to stand up with a knife in his hand I did not see anything excessive there

[Clusterfrack]

I split off the excellent and developing discussion on sights and presentation in a new thread.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?55332-Todd-Louis-Green-and-the-modern-approach-to-using-your-sights

[feudist]

It forces you to have your shit together a little more than a Glock.

A Glock will do anal in a public bathroom right after you swiped right.

A revolver at least requires you to buy dinner first.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/Vg4mlLwOFR5tbuoMOX/giphy.gif

[G19Fan]

Decent video but Mas gets an C- in pharmacology on this one...


I can help but think the sig 365 platform has kind of solved the old size vs capability problem.

Traditionally a bigger gun is more capable and has more capacity but is more of a hassle to carry for many.

The 365 series solves that IMO for many people. Want to go super small? Carry the standard one with a 17rd reload.

Go with an XL and you have the best of both worlds in a very shootable gun.

Or slap a macro grip on the xl and have a very capable gun in a package smaller than a G19.

Only gun that has been able to pull me away from a g19 (macro xl)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've read some other forums' discussion of the video. Some are rational, others are idiot parades of 5 is enough if you are doing you job and show me case beyond 3,3,3. Those latter folks only face one opponent and never miss a one shot stop.

[G19Fan]

Another Mic Drop! 👍👍👍👍

The Active Self Protection video posted earlier in this thread was about as cringy as it gets. The nearest guy was down and out, but the “good guy” went back to finish him off! My wife and I subscribe to, and support the “Police Activity” channel. We’ve seen shootouts with 40 rounds exchanged, and zero hits. A recent video showed the attack of a Baltimore woman by a man with a knife. Police showed up, and ended the attack with 2-3 rounds, but the officer continued to fire at the attacker, and then finished him off with an extra rounds to the chest. The woman was uninjured in the attack, so I don’t know that the psycho deserved to be executed.


https://youtu.be/I3oUjpmda7g

The psycho was not executed. He was shot till he complied. Big difference.

If someone is on me with a knife shoot them until the get off of me.

Not sure if you have done knife work but the difference between uninjured, injured, very injured, to dead with knives is often fractions of a second

[FrankB]

This is the position he was in before the final shot. I don’t see him as a threat, and he was probably already mortally wounded. 🤷🏼

98487

[luckyman]

This is the position he was in before the final shot. I don’t see him as a threat, and he was probably already mortally wounded. [emoji1743]

98487

Well mortally wounded doesn’t mean squat, lots of people have done lots of damage when already mortally wounded. The bad dude was definitely raising the knife up again before the final shot. The only question left is in the heat of the moment could the officer have reasonably determined in a quarter of a second that wasn’t a real threat even though the bad guy was definitely showing intent.
Also note based on the position of the victim I wouldn’t be surprised if the officer’s first few shots were deliberately aimed low to avoid over penetration into the victim. The risk the first few shots might not have been effective might have also played into this.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Speculation - need to see where the first shots hit. Raising the knife when you are flat on your back and the officer could have backed away - if this goes to court, experts on timing of action will be all over this. Aiming low on purpose? Let's see if he says that without being coached by a lawyer.

It is premature to dissect this. Also, why didn't the first arriving officer approach? He seems to be frozen to his car. He could have circled out of the line of fire.

We are wandering though off the topic of having a higher capacity magazine.

[feudist]

This is the position he was in before the final shot. I don’t see him as a threat, and he was probably already mortally wounded. 🤷🏼

98487

The difficulties in assessing incapacitation are manifold. The chief of which is observing bullet impacts. There are no signs of impact or blood on this creep until the end
Using the mere fact that he's rolling to avoid being shot as an assertion that he's mortally wounded, or even wounded at all...is optimism at best, hindsight fallacy at worst.
We-and the jury pool-are so conditioned from Hollywood depictions of the effects of bullets-in so many ways. From gaping entrance wounds, blood spray forward and backwards, closeups and slo-mo, musical cues and the simple fact that bullets are instantly knock out fatal(unless serving dramatic purpose).
Equally bad is the conditioning that training and qualifying impose, from canned strings of fire to rote "doubletaps" using oversized and stationary 2d targets that show visible impacts.
The only rational thing to do that is consistent with the rationale of legal use of deadly force-waiting until the threat of death or crippling to an innocent is imminent- is to shoot until he drops the weapon or is utterly motionless.
If doing that so rapidly doesn't give him time to surrender...then he fucking chose poorly. Perhaps other scum should learn from his mistake.
Or the learning could be on the part of Police Officers: give them what they voted for, good and hard.

[FrankB]

Let’s take this situation back to 1980. The officer has a 6 shot revolver, and the psycho has a butcher knife. Raise your hand if you think the officer would have reloaded, or would have been a man and gone hands on. I think high capacity magazines have made a lot of officers into pussies. Don’t me tell I don’t know because I’m not a police officer. You could very well be the sort of person I’m referring to. I’ve been in fights as an adult, so yeah, I know what unarmed combat is all about.

Oh yeah. Let me know if the psycho was your brother, and you were standing there offering objective advice to the officer, whether you’d tell him to get one last round in.

Not a Pussy Officer:

https://youtu.be/uigVX9uzPeM

[RevolverJIM]

Law Enforcement Officers are not "in it" to prove their manhood. If a person would prefer to go "hands on" with a knife wielding adversary, that's ok by me but not something any of my colleagues would do.

As a long time Reserve Officer (County and City), my intention is to go home uninjured at the end of my shift/detail.

[jnc36rcpd]

High capacity magazines turned us into pussies? Who knew? Everyone else tells us that Tasers, OC spray, expandable batons, and calling for back-up turned us into pussies!

While I can't off-hand locate the research, when my department transitioned from the revolver to the 9mm SIG 226 thus turning us all into pussies), the Michigan State Police posited that they found troopers sometime failed to fire when appropriate because of concern about running dry. I'd assume this was probably more when armed suspects were fleeing or maneuvering than when troopers were under fire.

[FrankB]

Law Enforcement Officers are not "in it" to prove their manhood. If a person would prefer to go "hands on" with a knife wielding adversary, that's ok by me but not something any of my colleagues would do.

As a long time Reserve Officer (County and City), my intention is to go home uninjured at the end of my shift/detail.

I can absolutely respect that. My conscience would not allow me to put one last shot into a man lying in the street. 🤷🏼

[Utm]

This is the position he was in before the final shot. I don’t see him as a threat, and he was probably already mortally wounded. 🤷🏼

98487

The decision to shoot was already made, there is lag time between threat going down and realizing you don't need to shoot anymore. We also can not go with "probably " as a means to stop using deadly force. If someone is down and still grasping a gun i can not assume he "probably " won't shoot me if he's still moving

[Utm]

This is the position he was in before the final shot. I don’t see him as a threat, and he was probably already mortally wounded. 🤷🏼

98487
Also if you look at the 20 second mark he was rolling over and pushing himself up off the ground in order to attempt to stand up...with the knife still in hand. That is when that shot is taken

[FrankB]

The decision to shoot was already made, there is lag time between threat going down and realizing you don't need to shoot anymore. We also can not go with "probably " as a means to stop using deadly force. If someone is down and still grasping a gun i can not assume he "probably " won't shoot me if he's still moving

A gun is a whole new scenario.

[Utm]

A gun is a whole new scenario.

I disagree, gun, bat, knife, all the same justification when deadly force is warranted

[AMC]

Let’s take this situation back to 1980. The officer has a 6 shot revolver, and the psycho has a butcher knife. Raise your hand if you think the officer would have reloaded, or would have been a man and gone hands on. I think high capacity magazines have made a lot of officers into pussies. Don’t me tell I don’t know because I’m not a police officer. You could very well be the sort of person I’m referring to. I’ve been in fights as an adult, so yeah, I know what unarmed combat is all about.

Oh yeah. Let me know if the psycho was your brother, and you were standing there offering objective advice to the officer, whether you’d tell him to get one last round in.

Not a Pussy Officer:

https://youtu.be/uigVX9uzPeM

Was gonna comment on an earlier post, but nah. This comment jumped the shark from rational questioning and valid citizen skepticism of police actions to outright stupidity. You've been in fights? Cool. Knife fights? Gun fights? If no....then your experience is not actually relevant. If yes, your life choices are highly suspect.

Nothing wrong at all with questioning police use of force. Many of us here who do or have worn a badge have been highly critical of some uses of force, including within our own agencies. But he comments in this post are sophomoric, and not worthy of you. You can do better.

[WobblyPossum]

If the guy with a contact weapon is attempting to get off the ground with the weapon still in his hand, then it’s still objectively reasonable to shoot him. He’s still a threat. What do you think he’s going to do with the knife after he gets up? What do you think is the appropriate time to engage him with gunfire again? When he gets up to his knees? When he stands up fully? When he’s on his feet coming towards you with knife in hand? If I determined you’re a deadly force threat armed with a contact weapon and I engaged you with gunfire, you’re still a threat until you either drop the weapon or cease moving completely. I also don’t expect police to have to go hands on with knife armed assailants if they can help it. That’s not reasonable. Leave that silliness for the UK and other countries where the police don’t have a choice because they don’t have deadly force tools. There’s a good video floating around of several officers in another country absolutely getting cut the fuck up by an assailant with a blade as they’re trying to shoot him.

[FrankB]

Was gonna comment on an earlier post, but nah. This comment jumped the shark from rational questioning and valid citizen skepticism of police actions to outright stupidity. You've been in fights? Cool. Knife fights? Gun fights? If no....then your experience is not actually relevant. If yes, your life choices are highly suspect.

Nothing wrong at all with questioning police use of force. Many of us here who do or have worn a badge have been highly critical of some uses of force, including within our own agencies. But he comments in this post are sophomoric, and not worthy of you. You can do better.

Dude, you don’t know me from Adam. I didn’t call you stupid/sophomoric, because that’s not a debate/argument.

[FrankB]

There’s a good video floating around of several officers in another country absolutely getting cut the fuck up by an assailant with a blade as they’re trying to shoot him.

That’s not at all the case here. The guy may seem to some as struggling to get up, but I saw a man struggling to stay alive. He never cut anyone, especially not the woman he was on top of. As a college freshman, I worked as a security guard in a hospital ER. There were plenty of good times to be had between 11pm and 7am. I worked security in other places as well, including fast food joints on weekend nights...in the wrong part of town…armed only with a sense of determination.

[Utm]

That’s not at all the case here. The guy may seem to some as struggling to get up, but I saw a man struggling to stay alive. He never cut anyone, especially not the woman he was on top of. As a college freshman, I worked as a security guard in a hospital ER. There were plenty of good times to be had between 11pm and 7am. I worked security in other places as well, including fast food joints on weekend nights...in the wrong part of town…armed only with a sense of determination.
Your assumptions and hindsight are not how this is judged. This is judged based on the officers perception in that very moment

[TheNewbie]

From memory, FrankB has usually made quality posts, but the last couple of pages are way out there, and they show an enormous amount of ignorance. Not because he critiqued the officer, though I think the officer did way more good than bad, but it is the content of the critique of LE that is so absurd.


Here is a question. If you had to face the exact same situation, would you prefer a six shot revolver or a seventeen round polymer pistol? How confident are you in your ability to reload a revolver while some crazed dude with a knife is chasing you?

[WobblyPossum]

That’s not at all the case here. The guy may seem to some as struggling to get up, but I saw a man struggling to stay alive. He never cut anyone, especially not the woman he was on top of. As a college freshman, I worked as a security guard in a hospital ER. There were plenty of good times to be had between 11pm and 7am. I worked security in other places as well, including fast food joints on weekend nights...in the wrong part of town…armed only with a sense of determination.

The assailant doesn’t have to have successfully cut the victim for lethal force to be justified to stop them. That’s not how our system works. The officer needs to be able to articulate that the assailant had the Ability to cause death or serious bodily injury, the Opportunity to do so, and manifested a sense of Jeopardy/Intent to do so (AOJ). That was clear in the beginning of the video which justified beginning to use deadly force to stop him. He’s still considered a deadly force threat until he’s either incapacitated or completely compliant. The female victim is within striking range of the assailant the entire time in that video. If the assailant maintains control of the knife and continues attempting to get up, he continues to be a deadly force threat to the victim so the officer is justified in continuing to employ deadly force to stop him. Would a hypothetical reasonable officer with the same training and experience as the officer in the video possibly take the same actions as this officer? If so, then his actions were reasonable.

[Sammy1]

Here is an example of subject with a knife having been shot and getting back up and attacking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kHVe1OtD4o

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here is a question. If you had to face the exact same situation, would you prefer a six shot revolver or a seventeen round polymer pistol? How confident are you in your ability to reload a revolver while some crazed dude with a knife is chasing you?

Facetiously, I quote a Goodyear blimp of a store clerk in Austin. I overhead this conversation when Blimpy was selling a revolver to a good ol' boy. This was in a good ol' boy store. Blimpy was answering the question of capacity when the dude was questioning a J frame. He said: If you can't get it done in 5, you ain't doing your job.

Never liked that clerk but I've seen the same quote from old Fudds in the ever popular capacity threads elsewhere.

That being said, getting back to the video, my opinion is worth what you paid for it as if this was to go to trial, it will be taken apart millisecond by millisecond and frame by frame. My opinion, again worth spit is that the stream of shots seems justified due to the threat to the woman and possibly getting up. If I were to assign risk to the officer, it is to the last shot. There is a noticeable pause in the firing stream. In other cases, that pause has been used against a shooter as it indicates time to evaluate if the threat is over. Folks have been prosecuted for a few second delay of shots. Not just a slow pause execution shot like that pharmacist fool but a pause in a stream of fire for just a few seconds.

Counter to that is the research showing that it is hard to inhibit the stream of fire motor program even when perceiving a stop signal. But a pause may be evaluated differently. So, this is not to assign blame, implying execution but to analyze. Would a prosecutor claim that the bad guy was clearly disabled enough to evaluate the last shot. Could it be determined what the effect of the last shot was?

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to prosecute the officer on such a millisecond implication of motive. Determining in a second that someone still holding the knife is not a threat - certainly grounds for reasonable doubt.

So what's happening on this incident? Civic uproar, lawyers?

[AMC]

From memory, FrankB has usually made quality posts, but the last couple of pages are way out there, and they show an enormous amount of ignorance. Not because he critiqued the officer, though I think the officer did way more good than bad, but it is the content of the critique of LE that is so absurd.

This is the point I was attempting to make. My critique was aimed at the comments, not the commenter. Hence my "not worthy of you" and "you can do better" remarks. We all make dumb comments or arguments occasionally, especially in complex areas that may be outside of our experience or expertise. Hell, I've made dumb comments inside my area of expertise in the past! Apparently he didn't take it that way.

I stand by my critique of the comments. Perhaps I'm a little less patient with such arguments now that I'm no longer employed as a public servant, and no longer have a 'professionalizing filter' on my responses. But dude CAN do better.

[ViniVidivici]

I disagree, gun, bat, knife, all the same justification when deadly force is warranted

Amen.

Anyone who'd shoot a knife wielding suspect multiple times, THEN go "hands on" to finish things, WHILE the attacker is still acting in a violent, aggressive way, is a complete idiot, not a "man".

That would be incredibly stupid. If the decision has been made to shoot, in the face of deadly force, shoot to stop the threat.

Sufficient ammunition doesn't make someone a "pussy", it makes them more capable.

Blasting an unarmed man from 25 yards away 15 times might qualify for the "pussy" statement, but that's not what we're seeing here.

[TGS]

Oh watch out guys, the unarmed fast food security guard with zero training or experience in the use of force is telling us how to do our jobs.

Sweet.

[feudist]

The use of body cams only provides the viewer with a point of view known as Third Person Objective, meaning that the viewer has no access to the thoughts or intentions of the participants.
But the viewer almost inevitably assumes that they are viewing from Third Person Omniscient, and that they know the internal dialogue of the participants. They have infinite replay of split second frame by frame review. They are free to research every precedent of law and popular opinion untouched by the consequences of getting a splitsecond decision wrong(or even not optimal, coulda woulda shoulda) in the middle of a psycho-physical-emotional event few people ever experience or even have a frame of reference for.
What motives the viewer attributes to the participants quite predictably reflects their experiences, as has been shown time and again in studies on perceptions of different races, sexes, education levels and religions.
And it reflects their ignorance of the limits of reaction time, cognition, visual tracking and focus, attentional blindness and simply operating at the limits of Human function in a no do-overs situation with actual stakes.
What is the delta between your cold "The Test" and the 10th repetition? In this cognitively trivial rote task which would you prefer to be judged on? Or stake 1000 bucks on? But which reflects, if even in the most minor way, the "Come as you are" nature of combat?

"Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.

But it is being demanded more and more by radical leftists and liberaltarians as they seek to "reign in Police abuses".
For those interested in self defense this trend doesn't bode at all well. Any restriction or punitive prosecutions taken against cops will inevitably be extended to CCW defense, only magnified.
Because while we all know the reality of the selection and training that cops receive is far short of good, the public and the courts still attribute cops with being carefully selected and receiving superior training.
If the cops fuck it up(by the standards of Angels)...what business do you, Mr. CCW, have in defending yourself with a gun? Time to make an example out of you.

[TCinVA]

Let’s take this situation back to 1980. The officer has a 6 shot revolver, and the psycho has a butcher knife. Raise your hand if you think the officer would have reloaded, or would have been a man and gone hands on.

A typical police officer in the revolver days was using sub-optimal reload methods because things like speed loaders were heavily resisted until fairly late in the course for revolvers. Even if the officer had a speed loader, reloading a revolver with a speed loader is a time consuming and fairly delicate process.

In the revolver days what an officer most likely would have done when he'd had his six was produce a backup revolver.

If he didn't have a backup revolver, he'd pull out a blackjack or a sap and maybe crack the dude's skull.

Point being going hands on because you're out of other options isn't "being a man", it's eating a shit sandwich. The real world isn't rock, paper, scissors.

Thats one of the most bizarre statements I've ever seen on PF.

And I'd submit that unless you have extensive experience going hands on with people armed with edged weapons then maybe you should bite your tongue.

[Cecil Burch]

Anyone who voluntarily goes hands on with a knife armed attacker when he has other options is a dipshit. And this is from someone who has spent 40+ years working that exact problem under true pressure.

[El Cid]

Let’s take this situation back to 1980. The officer has a 6 shot revolver, and the psycho has a butcher knife. Raise your hand if you think the officer would have reloaded, or would have been a man and gone hands on. I think high capacity magazines have made a lot of officers into pussies. Don’t me tell I don’t know because I’m not a police officer. You could very well be the sort of person I’m referring to. I’ve been in fights as an adult, so yeah, I know what unarmed combat is all about.

Oh yeah. Let me know if the psycho was your brother, and you were standing there offering objective advice to the officer, whether you’d tell him to get one last round in.

Not a Pussy Officer:

https://youtu.be/uigVX9uzPeM

Ridiculous. Please share what experience and training you have in dealing with armed subjects, and the application of force. Currently you come across as the typical bookface Karen who learned about deadly force by watching movies and TV shows.

By the way, you’re the red car.
https://d1gu3pii8scrhd.cloudfront.net/s3fs-public/editorial/bad_driving.gif

[Latka Gravas]

This is the position he was in before the final shot. I don’t see him as a threat, and he was probably already mortally wounded. 🤷🏼

98487

I would ask how many times was he hit and where on his body was he hit. The answer(s) is we have no way of knowing just how bad off the guy was. What we DO know from watching the video (that we cannot possible know from a still image) is that this guy still had the knife in his hand. We also know he was still trying to get up.

The three requirements necessary for any of us to employ fatal force are proximity, intent and means. Since the late 1990's I was taught that lethal proximity of an edged weapon was 30 feet-an increased distance from 21 feet. The still image shows proximity for lethal force. The still image shows the knife in his hand. This shows the means for lethal force. In the video, we see this guy trying to get back up. Why do you suppose the reason for him to get back up is? The reasonable and prudent person would determine the reason for him to get back up was to continue his attempt to murder someone. This established his intention-further supported by him not dropping the knife.

Proximity, intent and means to cause great bodily harm or death were present. Can you explain how you did not see this viciously violent felon as a threat?

[TheNewbie]

FrankB is a good dude with a lot of fun posts. This is not the ravings of a random troll or provocateur.

He’s taken a rather decent beat down here, which was earned, but maybe it’s time we back off and let him respond. We’ve all said absurd things or held absurd ideas, and even the most unaware person reading this thread will quickly see how Frank deservedly earned the responses that have been given.


Now it’s time to see if learning has occurred, and then forgive and forget. Just my two cents.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good post. BTW, when you speak of only those with expertise evaluating the video, remember that if he goes to trial (again status of the incident?), it will be NON-experts citizens that will have to watch the tape dissected frame by frame. Every nuance will be up for grabs

The Tueller rules - the DA says, that's when the opponent is standing.

Drop the knife - the officer is still saying it when the knife is clearly down. Is that good or bad? Was his mental state such that he didn't clearly evaluate what was happening. If one wants to delve into some theories of violence onset, it's a forward panic when one commits to a violent action and it continues beyond what is needed. There is an initial inclination against interpersonal violence but when that is overcome, you might go to extremes not needed. Who knows. Is that plus or minus argument for defense or prosecution.

The timing of the last shot, which might be the one of issue. Who knows. It clearly is after a short pause. I know two cases where the pause is what led to charges or influenced the case. One I can't talk about. The other is Bernhard Goetz - there was a lengthy discussion and argument between the DA and defense attorney and in the jury about the number and sequence and hits of the shots. I mentioned the research that shows a string of shots can't be stopped even when the stop signal is sounded but this one has a pause - would that be dissected?

In cases, even a small pause has switched a SD case to premeditation as the prosecution claimed that the shooter should have evaluated the effects of the first shots cognitively to stop firing. Continuing meant wanting to go beyond stopping.

My opinion - stated before, but now again - the shots are justified. The continued threat is to the officer and perhaps again towards the woman. The risky one is the last after the pause. Unless, there are local politics, though, I cannot see action against the officer. There was no motivation to be an executioner. Certainly, there is reasonable doubt saying he is a deliberate executioner.

This is what a non-expert, non-SME, non-member of p-f, might have to decide.

[Latka Gravas]

Back to the topic of the thread, starting around 2000, I began looking for a single stack 9mm. I wanted 7-8 rounds in a reliable platform. I wanted a gun that was smaller and easier to conceal than my issued Glock 22 and something that didn't feel like holding a brick (Glock 27).

I didn't find what I was looking for until the M&P Shield came out. I got one of the first ones in my area. Since then the whole "micro compact" category has exploded. Since retiring in 2017 I have pretty much determined what my carry rotation will be. Shield Plus, P365, Hellcat and the CR920 are pretty much what I go to. Having a minimum of 10 rounds in the gun works for me. I see these as a "2-3 bad guy" gun. I anticipate 2-3 rounds per target. If the threat is still there, it is time to reload and continue.

The recoil impulse isn't a problem with the micro guns, but carrying a heavier-full sized gun is a problem. I am currently 72 hours past having L3 and L4 fused together. Prior to this surgery, heavier guns began causing problems in very short order. My right leg would lose feeling. So the little guns became my "go to" solution.........

[Clusterfrack]

@FrankB is a good dude with a lot of fun posts. This is not the ravings of a random troll or provocateur.

He’s taken a rather decent beat down here, which was earned, but maybe it’s time we back off and let him respond. We’ve all said absurd things or held absurd ideas, and even the most unaware person reading this thread will quickly see how Frank deservedly earned the responses that have been given.


Now it’s time to see if learning has occurred, and then forgive and forget. Just my two cents.

TheNewbie, thanks for this. I agree.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I agree.

[BehindBlueI's]

FWIW,

Our agency policy and training would be to utilize time/distance/barriers for a suspect armed with an edged weapon and not having an immediately available victim (other than self harm). Closing with them to go "hands on" would be both foolish and against policy, increasing the odds of both injury to the officer and the need to use additional force against the suspect. This is a *radical* shift from when I first started policing and has been a difficult mindset shift for many of us, from "solve the problem now" to "be patient, let the situation unfold as long as you have the time to do so" and from "running toward danger" to "monitoring and containing danger" sorts of training and expectations. We shoot fewer people with knives now compared to then for sure, and haven't seen an uptick in additional victims. It is more complicated and requires more decision making, as there are less bright line rules and more judgement calls which are easier to MMQ for sure, but everyone from the brass to the prosecutor to the general public.

What this means for high capacity? More time to safely reload, I suppose, as you're supposed to be seeking cover (distance/barriers) and increasing the gap (time) so capacity and the need to speed reload are even less relevant. From personal experience and BWC footage I'd say our officers are doing a good job of tac reloading when appropriate. I considered it, but knew my mag was nearly full and it wasn't warranted. I see and hear others doing the same (topping off, I'm good, etc on BWC) meaning they are actively making the decision when there's a lull in the action.

[Clusterfrack]

Moved the discussion about carry rotation to an older thread on this topic (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20240-Carry-rotation-What-is-it).

[FrankB]

Lesson learned? My response to all this? You don’t even want to unleash that shit! You all go about shooting whomever you’d like, just don’t do it in front of me.

P.S. I wasn’t a fast food guard. I worked for Atlantic Security, and was sent to all sorts of places. My weapons were fists and brains, not a 17 round magazine.

[WobblyPossum]

Lesson learned? My response to all this? You don’t even want to unleash that shit! You all go about shooting whomever you’d like, just don’t do it in front of me.

P.S. I wasn’t a fast food guard. I worked for Atlantic Security, and was sent to all sorts of places. My weapons were fists and brains, not a 17 round magazine.

If you still think going hands on with an aggressive subject armed with a knife is an appropriate course of action while you have any other options, I have no idea what to tell you. Regarding LE doing that, anyone who thinks that’s some sign of manhood is not fit to be a law enforcement officer because they have demonstrated terrible judgment regarding UoF. As an LEO your duty is to the public and if you take inefficient and ineffective actions to end a lethal threat, you’re endangering the public you’re supposed to protect. You also risk arming the threat with your handgun if he happens to incapacitate you with his knife because you didn’t do your job properly. Now you’ve further endangered the public and other responders who show up to save you and clean up your mess. Life isn’t a Steven Segal movie. Purposely going hands-on against knife armed adversaries is a horrible idea. You do that because you have no other choice. You don’t do that because you want to.

[FrankB]

I can’t find the raw footage of this incident. I think the officer here had every right to shoot this woman, but I’m probably wrong here as well. It’s actually pretty amazing video!


https://youtu.be/__4c0IEyuEc

[TheNewbie]

Lesson learned? My response to all this? You don’t even want to unleash that shit! You all go about shooting whomever you’d like, just don’t do it in front of me.

P.S. I wasn’t a fast food guard. I worked for Atlantic Security, and was sent to all sorts of places. My weapons were fists and brains, not a 17 round magazine.


You have every right to question a situation. I too do not worship at the alter of “experts say”.


That said, the way you are approaching this is beneath your previous conduct on this forum. Just because you were not properly equipped by your employer to go into intense situations, does not mean you should wish the same upon others. It’s not that you criticize cops, that’s often what needs to be done, but if you don’t recognize how absurd and over the top your statement about higher capacity guns turning cops into pussies is, then you need to take some time off and reflect on how you think about these things.

I’ve also made absurd and over the top comments, when I did it, I was wrong.


Lot’s of people do stupid things and get away with them, myself included. I wouldn’t judge any one video of an officer doing some amazing movie stuff and it working out as how SOPs should be written.


Anyway, I’m out, but I look forward to your posts in the other threads here. That is not meant sarcastically or in a condescending manner.

[DDTSGM]

A recent video showed the attack of a Baltimore woman by a man with a knife. Police showed up, and ended the attack with 2-3 rounds, but the officer continued to fire at the attacker, and then finished him off with an extra rounds to the chest. The woman was uninjured in the attack, so I don’t know that the psycho deserved to be executed.


https://youtu.be/I3oUjpmda7g


The psycho was not executed. He was shot till he complied. Big difference.

If someone is on me with a knife shoot them until the get off of me.

Not sure if you have done knife work but the difference between uninjured, injured, very injured, to dead with knives is often fractions of a second

I'm late to this because I wasn't really interested in watching the video until I read many of the posts pillorying Frank B.

While I don't necessarily agree that the man was executed, I don't understand the vehemence being used to defend the officers last shot.

Hopefully, police training differentiates between the boxes which must be checked to use force to protect the officer or another and the boxes which must be checked to use force to apprehend a fleeing violent felon.

Again, I would hope that officers are taught at least a rudimentary decision-making process involving three elements: 1) the ability to harm - possession of either physical prowess or a weapon; 2) the opportunity to harm - generally suspect distance and positioning are critical considerations; 3) jeopardy - an overt move to use the opportunity to harm and the ability to harm.

Generally, these three elements, perhaps labeled differently make up the BASIC decision-making matrix.

In the video linked, at first blush the officer's initial shots are justified. As we examine the final shot, the bad guy has just finished rolling/flopping onto his back. For an instant one might construe that he moved the knife toward the man on the sidewalk with malice, but he has settled into a supine position, I'd guess ten feet from the officer, before the last shot.

At that point, using the rudimentary 1) ability to harm; 2) opportunity to harm; 3) overt move to harm matrix, the man still has the ability to harm, but in the strictest sense lacks the opportunity to harm because of his supine position and distance from the officer.

That's from watching the video. What did the officer see in those fleeting moments? Could he have believed the man was about to throw the knife at him? Did he react as he perceived the suspect to make a move toward the man on the sidewalk? Would it be reasonable for him to fire if that was the case?

Bottom line is, it isn't necessarily cut and dried. I would like to think I wouldn't have fired, but that doesn't mean that this officer is a stone cold killer.

Just my thoughts.

[Utm]

I can’t find the raw footage of this incident. I think the officer here had every right to shoot this woman, but I’m probably wrong here as well. It’s actually pretty amazing video!


https://youtu.be/__4c0IEyuEc
He 100% should have shot her and not doing so almost got him killed

[FrankB]

He 100% should have shot her and not doing so almost got him killed

I showed that video to a Trenton, NJ police officer, and he said she should have been shot. That was some amazing (perhaps foolish) self control and confidence!

P.S. I fully support ALL police officers, and go out of my way to thank as many as possible, whenever possible. When I retrieved the psycho with a knife video, my joking and heartless comment made me cringe. It was deleted immediately after I read it. If I worked as a police officer, I’d carry grenades! This thread began with Mas’s opinion that we need to carry many rounds, but as a civilian, I don’t completely agree. My new Dan Wesson 9mm Guardian has been on my hip this past week, giving me 10+1 rounds. It has a few hundred rounds through it, and is both reliable and accurate.

Peace and Love to All, and Have a Great Christmas and Holiday season!

[TheNewbie]

I showed that video to a Trenton, NJ police officer, and he said she should have been shot. That was some amazing (perhaps foolish) self control and confidence!

P.S. I fully support ALL police officers, and go out of my way to thank as many as possible, whenever possible. When I retrieved the psycho with a knife video, my joking and heartless comment made me cringe. It was deleted immediately after I read it. If I worked as a police officer, I’d carry grenades! This thread began with Mas’s opinion that we need to carry many rounds, but as a civilian, I don’t completely agree. My new Dan Wesson 9mm Guardian has been on my hip this past week, giving me 10+1 rounds. It has a few hundred rounds through it, and is both reliable and accurate.

Peace and Love to All, and Have a Great Christmas and Holiday season!


Merry Christmas to you as well, and wish you the best.

When I am on my time, I mostly carry a LCRx or P32. That probably deserves its own beat down. ;)

[BehindBlueI's]

We have a use of force thread and a shooting incident thread. I've let the first conversation go on as it may have been tangentially related to the original topic, but let's get back to capacity arguments.

[FrankB]

We have a use of force thread and a shooting incident thread. I've let the first conversation go on as it may have been tangentially related to the original topic, but let's get back to capacity arguments.

Before we do that, I’d like to apologize to everyone who found my p___sies comment offensive. I didn’t type it to attack, or to offend anyone here, even officer involved. It’s been my experience that the internet rarely captures the full intent of posts. I also tend to shoot off the cuff comments. Thank you to all members who work/worked in law enforcement, and please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding. As mentioned earlier, my wife and I watch every episode of Police Activity, and it’s not an easy job. From arguing with drunks, having some jackass pull a weapon, or even Code Brown, it’s a job for a special breed.

[Rex G]

Magazine capacity is, in and of itself, a good thing. Continuity of fire can be very important, in some situations. A wide, blocky gripping area however, compromises my hands’ ability to retain the weapon, if the fight is at touching distance. Of course, we all have individually different hands; the tip of my thumb barely reaches as far the the base knuckle of my index finger, and the tips of my little fingers end well short of the distal knuckles of my ring fingers. Arguably, I should carry a Glock G17, for continuity of fire, and a medium-frame revolver, for contact-distance gunfighting. ;) Actually, there have been times that I have done just that, and I do not mean in the LEO-ing context.

When I was allowed to start using 9mm ammo, for duty, in 2015, I transitioned to a Gen4 Glock G17 mostly for “orthopedic” reasons, but I discovered additional comfort/peace of mind in knowing that I could hold the weapon more firmly, in a contact-distance fight, than I could the SIG P229 I had been using since 2004, or the Gen3 G22 I had used before the SIG. (Gen3 Glocks have bulkier frames, in the gripping area, than Gen4/Gen5, and, in 2004, when I transitioned to SIG, away from Gen3 Glocks, it was not yet clear whether I would have been allowed to qual with a Glock that had a grip reduction job.)

One reason that I like the “baby” G26 Glocks, even the Gen3, is because the short grip enables my little/pinkie finger to wrap around the mag’s base plate, or the body of a G19/G17-length mag. The little/pinkie finger does have a considerable role, in gripping a weapon, and controlling the effects of recoil.

When I was able to return to using a 1911 as a duty pistol, in early 2016, for the first time since 2002*, I did so, mostly for the accuracy potential, at longer range, but the ability to REALLY grip checkered steel front and back straps, on the somewhat narrower frame, was also significantly comforting. Of course, I still had my Gen4 G26 back-up pistol, in an ankle rig, with ten rounds of 9mm, to augment my continuity of fire, which is a good ability to have, on the sometimes-mean streets of Houston, Texas. (Actually, in the final months of my career, in late 2017 and very early 2018, I bolted a Glock 34 holster body back into place, on the shank, so that I could carry a G19 when I rode in the right front seat of the new, cursedly-compact patrol vehicles, and a full-sized G17 when I was in the driver’s seat, or whenever I/we happened to be issued an older Tahoe, or Crown Vic, for the shift.)

*I had let my “grandfathered” 1911 duty pistols lapse, and reluctantly transitioned to Glock G22, in 2002, because the then-mandated Safariland 070/SS III duty holster was NOT a good duty rig for 1911 pistols, as delivered, at least not for my short-waisted self. (The angles involved in the “chicken wing” start of the draw prevented acquiring a good firing grip, at the outset of the draw. By the time I was OK’ed to again qual with, and carry, a 1911 duty pistol, the much better-for-me Safariland ALS/SLS 6360 had become the standard duty holster.

Edted to add: Sorry for the long post. I tend to get a bit too geek/nerd, about fit and ergonomics.

[El Cid]

We have a use of force thread and a shooting incident thread. I've let the first conversation go on as it may have been tangentially related to the original topic, but let's get back to capacity arguments.

Not directed at you BBI - just quoted for context.

I've never really understood why this is an argument in the first place. BLUF: a person should carry the largest handgun they can. Not just for capacity, but grip size (better control and easier reloads), longer barrel (higher velocity), longer slide (better accuracy via longer sight radius), and heavier (less recoil). While that will sometimes be situational, nobody has ever been in a shooting and thought "I have too much ammunition." Now we all play a little of the risk assessment game and depending on where we are going and how we have to dress may choose a smaller gun than usual. Most days at work I carry two guns, as did many of my colleagues over the years. Some days my rifle rides up front with me and some days it's locked in the trunk or box. But rest assured I'm always carrying the maximum I can whatever my circumstances may be.

Defoor calls each round an opportunity. It's an opportunity to solve a problem. I want the maximum number of opportunities I can reasonably carry because I have no vote in how many "problems" I will have to deal with. Some attackers may give up after seeing the LEO/victim's weapon. Some may be on drugs or have a tougher mindset and need a full mag of customer service. Some may use cover or wear armor to mitigate your hits. Under stress when all parties are moving means some of the ammo in your gun are likely to miss the mark.

More importantly, the bad guy gets to choose the majority of the environmental factors:
- When will the fight happens (day, night)?
- Where does it happen? Alone in a parking lot or at a crowded mall?
- Is it dark and raining or clear and sunny?
- How many of your friends who carry guns are there?
- Do you have family members/kids there when it happens?
- How many bad guys are there?
- Are the bad guys wearing armor?
- Do the bad guys have long guns?
- Are the bad guys on drugs that make them harder to stop?
- Do the bad guys have training in tactics (a more common problem after 20 years of war)?
- Does the bad guy(s) give up after a couple shots or does he fight like a 3-time loser who doesn't want to go back to prison?

If we knew that next Thursday we will get into a gunfight, we'd stay home and send our loved ones out of town. Or if we can't choose to avoid it, we'd have body armor, long guns, lots of mags and lots of friends. But since the bad guy gets to decide when and where it starts, we should be as prepared as possible. This means carrying as much gun (and ammo) as practical. Odds are we won't need to shoot anyone, but if we do, then losing the fight has some pretty high level consequences. As we like to say around P-F, it's not the odds, it's the stakes.

[Rex G]

Before we do that, I’d like to apologize to everyone who found my p___sies comment offensive. I didn’t type it to attack, or to offend anyone here, even officer involved. It’s been my experience that the internet rarely captures the full intent of posts. I also tend to shoot off the cuff comments. Thank you to all members who work/worked in law enforcement, and please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding. As mentioned earlier, my wife and I watch every episode of Police Activity, and it’s not an easy job. From arguing with drunks, having some jackass pull a weapon, or even Code Brown, it’s a job for a special breed.

I have yet to see the body cam video, and have not yet caught-up on reading the posts that contain all the ensuing fuss, but, as I see it, you have made numerous valuable contributions, so very many times, in P-F discussions, and will continue to do so, so, apology “pre-accepted.” ;)

I will add that we should keep in mind that body cams have ultra-wide-angle lenses, which make things appear to be farther away than they really are, and farther apart from each other than they really are. This distorts perspective. It is like the passenger-side rear-view mirrors, on our cars, but perhaps worse; objects are closer than they appear to be.

OK, now, back to our regularly scheduled Mag Capacity program.

[Danjojo]

Alertness and ability to flip a switch and execute (the body movements) is most important...on the firearm's part reliability and if it gets in the way of accuracy at quick cadence.

More capacity the better but the outcome isn't really determined by characteristics of the gun most of the time.

Personally...I wouldn't carry a pistol under 10rd capacity in most places, yet I don't top off after chambering either.

[Joe Mac]

or even Code Brown

Oh, I could tell you some stories about Code Brown...

[BehindBlueI's]

I've never really understood why this is an argument in the first place.


Now we all play a little of the risk assessment game and depending on where we are going and how we have to dress may choose a smaller gun than usual.

That's why. A large number of people can't, or won't, carry a G17 or similar every where, day, and time. So you get into the "how much is enough" and various contexts and needs.

Plus, it's tried and true formula for gun writers. "Is your j-frame enough" and similar variations is always a crowd favorite. Mas and I have had this conversation, and he's correct in that a lot of people buy their first gun each week and it's new information to them...but to us it's old hat. Yet we'll still discuss it so writers keep trotting it out for us, tired as it may be, because we obviously interact with it.

[Tamara]

Plus, it's tried and true formula for gun writers. "Is your j-frame enough" and similar variations is always a crowd favorite. Mas and I have had this conversation, and he's correct in that a lot of people buy their first gun each week and it's new information to them...but to us it's old hat.

I wish more people understood this.

The average amount of time most people stay actively engaged with an interest/hobby is somewhere between three and five years, depending on who you believe. For every one of us dorky lifer gun nerds who are reading that piece for the billionth time, there’s half a dozen someone’s new to the field for whom it’s new information.

[Leroy Suggs]

Tamara "lifer gun nerds". May I use that?

[Tamara]

Tamara "lifer gun nerds". May I use that?

The bylaws of the Dorky Lifer Gun Nerds Union require that you include “dorky”, but sure. ;)

[Latka Gravas]

In trying to figure out how many rounds will be enough, I have to concede that I simply cannot know the answer to this. There are too many variables like what if I miss; what if the round doesn't work (drugs/alcohol/body armor). Now for each of these things, I multiply the potential number of targets. What works for me is a minimum of a 10 shot magazine. With 11 rounds, I figure I am good for 1-3 targets. If I run 15+1, I am good for 3-5 targets.

I the gun and at least one reload. The main purpose for the reload is in case of a magazine failure, followed by the potential need for a reload.

This is what works for me.

[BehindBlueI's]

If I run 15+1, I am good for 3-5 targets.


That's certainly...optimistic.

The thing is, the aren't "targets" if you're legally allowed to be shooting all 3-5 of them and they won't patiently wait their turn to be shot.

[Latka Gravas]

That's certainly...optimistic.

The thing is, the aren't "targets" if you're legally allowed to be shooting all 3-5 of them and they won't patiently wait their turn to be shot.

What gave you the impression I was under the illusion I thought (you fill in the blank, using the term you find most appropriate here: ) targets would patiently wait to be shot. What's next, you'll point out my feet would not be anchored in concrete and that I would actually be capable of moving? Sigh.............

[BehindBlueI's]

What gave you the impression I was under the illusion I thought (you fill in the blank, using the term you find most appropriate here: ) targets would patiently wait to be shot. What's next, you'll point out my feet would not be anchored in concrete and that I would actually be capable of moving? Sigh.............

The fact you made it a math problem and the fact you seemed to think a certain capacity meant you were prepared for 5 attackers.

[Latka Gravas]

The fact you made it a math problem and the fact you seemed to think a certain capacity meant you were prepared for 5 attackers.

So you were just trolling. Gotcha............


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XJzxpn2vuA&t=2s


In the video Ayoob talks about number of rounds and numbers of targets. It sure seems to me that my way of thinking is very close to Ayoob's........

[BehindBlueI's]

So you were just trolling. Gotcha............

No, not really my style. I'll be an asshole if I think it's funny or warranted but I don't troll. In in this case I'm simply commenting on the fetish of capacity and the notion that a given number of cartridges in the magazine now means "I am good for 3-5 targets.". Your words, I didn't type them for you.

I have yet to see anyone prevail against 3-5 dedicated attackers, as in 3-5 who could be shot. I've seen several people prevail against 3+ due to the other team abdicating once the first shots rang out or, memorably, when their first buddy got his guts spilled out by a defender with a knife as he crossed through the doorway. Anyone who's went toe to toe with 3+ who were willing to stand and fight ran out of time before ammunition, meaning your math is irrelevant. Any crew smart enough to run 3-5 is typically smart enough to surround or have an overwatch. Like you pull to engage the ones you see and their buddy puts one in your back sort of scenarios.

I've worked in a very busy Homicide & Robbery office as a detective for roughly 6 years and am now back as a supervisor. I see/have seen a lot of crime scenes, videos, survivor interviews, etc. I've kept some decent notes and stats over the years to see who's won and who's lost and why. Capacity limits is so far down the list as to be invisible in random crime stats. Or you could just do some napkin math and figure whatever you like.

[MDFA]

I can honestly say that in 46 years of Police work I never once wished I had less ammunition or a smaller firearm.

In my OIS I used a 12 gauge and didn't wish for less ammo or a smaller caliber.

In 35 years of being an Instructor and reviewing Use Of Force I've never found that less is more.

In my most recent Force On Force Active Shooter training, the suspects had full 17 round magazines. I had 5 in the pistol and one spare magazine with 5 rounds. When the suspect appeared and snapped off 2 rounds at me as he ran across the hallway from one room to another, I connected with 2 rounds on him. When i confronted him in the room I fired the remaining 3 rounds and connected with all three. As I did a slide lock reload, I remember thinking those rounds went quick... And I obviously knew that nobody was dying that day. Yet the thought still entered my mind... FWIW I'll take more ammo whenever possible.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[BehindBlueI's]

As I did a slide lock reload, I remember thinking those rounds went quick... And I obviously knew that nobody was dying that day. Yet the thought still entered my mind... .

This is, IMO, one of the biggest but least talked about benefits of carrying a reload. It's psychologically satisfying to put the gun back in "full ready condition" at a time when that sort of satisfaction is at a premium. I did not reload, I knew I still had 28 rounds at my disposal, but the mere thought I could was satisfying. I've spoken to many who describe either wishing they could reload "just in case" or how the reload was the "beginning of the end" for them, though never worded that way. It was a signal to the brain that this particular hard part was over and while vigilance was still required and more hard parts were likely coming, the survival stress could start to ease.

[JCN]

This is, IMO, one of the biggest but least talked about benefits of carrying a reload. It's psychologically satisfying to put the gun back in "full ready condition" at a time when that sort of satisfaction is at a premium. I did not reload, I knew I still had 28 rounds at my disposal, but the mere thought I could was satisfying. I've spoken to many who describe either wishing they could reload "just in case" or how the reload was the "beginning of the end" for them, though never worded that way. It was a signal to the brain that this particular hard part was over and while vigilance was still required and more hard parts were likely coming, the survival stress could start to ease.

That is almost enough to have me start carrying a reload. Great point and not one usually presented to “regular Joes” in our meager CCW training.

[Sensei]

Just skimmed over this thread. Couple thoughts:
1) Ayoob is a paid spokesperson for Wilson Combat who is trying to sell their new high capacity 1911/2011. That is important context.
2) Nephrology is being generous with his grade of C-. Some of what Ayoob said is so wrong (unnecessarily so) that it starts to undermine is credibility on on other topics for which he is indeed a SMA.
3) I’m not sure that LE encounters requiring reloads after 15-18 rounds are representative of the overwhelming majority of non-LE self-defense encounters requiring lethal force. I do suspect that the numbers are increasing in the civilian sector though.
4) The standard should probably be to carry the platform(s) that allows you to reliably make the most efficient hits on the target in a variety of situations while conforming to the concealment circumstances of the day. This incorporates aspects of experience; resources for training such as the cost of ammo, holsters that won’t imprint; injuries that preclude certain calibers or platforms; etc. So, if you retired from Henrico PD and carried a TDA P220 most of your career, qualified repeatedly on the gun, and just generally know it better than your own kids, well then switching to a Glock 17 or Wilson EDC X9 to get get 7 more rounds could be very big mistake. In other words, a platform’s capacity should be a minor consideration when making these choices.
5) LE pros who are going to get bent out of shape on a gun forum when a civilian disagrees with their assessments on LE matters are not doing themselves any favors with the public. Every profession is scrutinized by lay citizens tasked with evaluating complex standards of care and behavior. I do not expect a jury of 12 doctors when I get sued and you sure as hell won’t get 12 cops if a DA or USA decides to seek an indictment for your actions. That is to say, I too was a little surprised by that last shot…not what I’d call an execution…more of a “well, OK then.”

[Latka Gravas]

No, not really my style. I'll be an asshole if I think it's funny or warranted but I don't troll. In in this case I'm simply commenting on the fetish of capacity and the notion that a given number of cartridges in the magazine now means "I am good for 3-5 targets.". Your words, I didn't type them for you.

I have yet to see anyone prevail against 3-5 dedicated attackers, as in 3-5 who could be shot. I've seen several people prevail against 3+ due to the other team abdicating once the first shots rang out or, memorably, when their first buddy got his guts spilled out by a defender with a knife as he crossed through the doorway. Anyone who's went toe to toe with 3+ who were willing to stand and fight ran out of time before ammunition, meaning your math is irrelevant. Any crew smart enough to run 3-5 is typically smart enough to surround or have an overwatch. Like you pull to engage the ones you see and their buddy puts one in your back sort of scenarios.

I've worked in a very busy Homicide & Robbery office as a detective for roughly 6 years and am now back as a supervisor. I see/have seen a lot of crime scenes, videos, survivor interviews, etc. I've kept some decent notes and stats over the years to see who's won and who's lost and why. Capacity limits is so far down the list as to be invisible in random crime stats. Or you could just do some napkin math and figure whatever you like.

1) What is the purpose of carrying more ammo. 2) What is the purpose of carrying reloads. 3) What is the purpose of Ayoob's video-the topic of this entire thread.

1) replaces a failing magazine and 2) provides additional ammo if needed. 3) to help people plan ahead, in case they find themselves in a horrible situation-maybe, just maybe help them to do more than simply survive a gunfight-but to win a gunfight.

Calling a viciously violent, reprehensible felon a "target" is because proper decorum precludes me from saying what I really think about anyone putting innocent people in grave danger.

In spite of your comment indicating there is no real reason for doing so, I guarantee you carry a gun that carries more than 6 cartridges and is not loaded with a speed loader.......why else would you even be replying here.

[Latka Gravas]

I can honestly say that in 46 years of Police work I never once wished I had less ammunition or a smaller firearm.

In my OIS I used a 12 gauge and didn't wish for less ammo or a smaller caliber.

In 35 years of being an Instructor and reviewing Use Of Force I've never found that less is more.

In my most recent Force On Force Active Shooter training, the suspects had full 17 round magazines. I had 5 in the pistol and one spare magazine with 5 rounds. When the suspect appeared and snapped off 2 rounds at me as he ran across the hallway from one room to another, I connected with 2 rounds on him. When i confronted him in the room I fired the remaining 3 rounds and connected with all three. As I did a slide lock reload, I remember thinking those rounds went quick... And I obviously knew that nobody was dying that day. Yet the thought still entered my mind... FWIW I'll take more ammo whenever possible.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I was involved in two OIS in my career. The first one, I was carrying the issued S&W 65, When the dust settled, I was very glad there were three of us standing. One stood over the downed suspect, while me and my partner worked to save the cop who was shot.

My second one was in 2008 and I was carrying the issued G22. The suspect fired two rounds at my partner and I from a Marlin 30-30. I fired once with the Glock. Early on, I remembered thinking I didn't have enough ammo with me. The loadout was two reloads for the 46 round total.

My mindset has changed in retirement because I no longer have to engage. So I am OK with carrying one reload and avoidance as part of my tactics.

[Latka Gravas]

This is, IMO, one of the biggest but least talked about benefits of carrying a reload. It's psychologically satisfying to put the gun back in "full ready condition" at a time when that sort of satisfaction is at a premium. I did not reload, I knew I still had 28 rounds at my disposal, but the mere thought I could was satisfying. I've spoken to many who describe either wishing they could reload "just in case" or how the reload was the "beginning of the end" for them, though never worded that way. It was a signal to the brain that this particular hard part was over and while vigilance was still required and more hard parts were likely coming, the survival stress could start to ease.

I think the part in bold is my biggest reason for not liking the "tactical reload". I will gladly leave a few live rounds in the mag and have a fully loaded gun to continue if need be. If I have to reload due to having fired rounds, the "emergency reload" will require less fine motor skills to accomplish, than a "tactical reload".

[Utm]

That is almost enough to have me start carrying a reload. Great point and not one usually presented to “regular Joes” in our meager CCW training.

Agreed that it not something I've considered as a reason for extra ammo, but I feel like breaking contact and getting out of dodge (somewhere far but safe) is a better solution if the threat is incapacitated

[BehindBlueI's]

1) What is the purpose of carrying more ammo. 2) What is the purpose of carrying reloads. 3) What is the purpose of Ayoob's video-the topic of this entire thread.

1) replaces a failing magazine and 2) provides additional ammo if needed. 3) to help people plan ahead, in case they find themselves in a horrible situation-maybe, just maybe help them to do more than simply survive a gunfight-but to win a gunfight.

Calling a viciously violent, reprehensible felon a "target" is because proper decorum precludes me from saying what I really think about anyone putting innocent people in grave danger.

In spite of your comment indicating there is no real reason for doing so, I guarantee you carry a gun that carries more than 6 cartridges and is not loaded with a speed loader.......why else would you even be replying here.

This isn't personal but I've had these conversations so many times I just don't feel like breaking it down like Barney again. Maybe someone who has the time or energy can direct you to one of a multitude of prior threads, but as a quick synopsis: Because it doesn't cost you anything to carry extra ammo assuming everything else is equal, which it generally isn't. If I can carry a G17, why not, so I do. I'm a cop in a state where nobody gives a shit I have a gun and there's no penalty for "getting made".

But then I sometimes do activities that carrying a G17 is not really feasible and my threat level is exceedingly low. I went for a jog in my neighborhood today. I've needed a gun while jogging exactly once, a pitbull latched on to my forearm, and I shot it in the chest with an LCR to end the attack (revolver, the thing you were sure I wasn't carrying...). Then I got confronted by the owner, who was unsurprisingly a shitbag and was locked up for burglary about a week later. I was pretty glad to have my little LCR that I could easily carry while jogging vs having nothing if I was stuck in the capacity fetish. Or, I could not jog and increase my risk of heart disease which is much more likely to kill me than not enough ammo...

When I travel out of state, especially by airplane, I routinely take a revolver. I don't have to concern myself with mag restrictions, I can silently load and make ready in an airport bathroom on my way out and be armed by the time I hit the taxi stand (no slide to run, a rather distinctive sound nobody wants to hear in the airport...) and I can run a padlock through the window to easily secure it in a nonfunctioning state when required.

So it depends on the context.

Mas and I are well acquainted and he's invited me to collaborate a few times, I've helped him a few times, etc. I say that to say I both like and respect Mas and understand that he needs things to talk about to a very wide audience and it's impossible to delve deeply into given context in that sort of format. He's talking to "the masses", not any given individual with a given skill set and a given threat assessment.

[BehindBlueI's]

Agreed that it not something I've considered as a reason for extra ammo, but I feel like breaking contact and getting out of dodge (somewhere far but safe) is a better solution if the threat is incapacitated

It's not either/or.

[Utm]

It's not either/or.

I do not disagree

[Rex G]

One thing that I did not mention, IIRC, in my early reply, is that I know that I may have to wait a while, after a defensive incident, for “my cavalry” to arrive. “Their cavalry” may well arrive first. If I have not yet opted to make a tactical withdrawal, to a safer location, before that happens, well, life could get interesting. This is the age of mobile communication devices, that are also navigation devices. I live in a small city, with a well-staffed PD, with a reputation for arriving quickly, but, I often find myself in nearby Houston, where response times can be lengthy.

This is not so much an argument for large capacity in individual magazines, as it is a plea to carry some amount of ammunition beyond that needed to engage one or two attackers. If a revolver, carry enough to completely reload the cylinder at least one time. 2+ is better. If an auto, carry at least one spare magazine.

[JAD]

I think the part in bold is my biggest reason for not liking the "tactical reload". I will gladly leave a few live rounds in the mag and have a fully loaded gun to continue if need be. If I have to reload due to having fired rounds, the "emergency reload" will require less fine motor skills to accomplish, than a "tactical reload".

Have you had much recent training? The concept of being concerned with ‘fine motor skills’ when we know that fine motor skills such as sight alignment and trigger press can be accomplished in a fight seems a little outmoded.

[Trooper224]

As if the horse isn't dead enough, we're going to keep beating it with a new stick by bringing up "fine motor skills"?

[Latka Gravas]

Have you had much recent training? The concept of being concerned with ‘fine motor skills’ when we know that fine motor skills such as sight alignment and trigger press can be accomplished in a fight seems a little outmoded.

Yes I have. I also understand which reloading technique is more likely to delay being ready to defend myself and which technique will not. I don't need to ask you this question because your comment already tells me what I need to know.

[hiro]

As if the horse isn't dead enough, we're going to keep beating it with a new stick by bringing up "fine motor skills"?

It's the horse zombie apocalypse

[Sensei]

I've needed a gun while jogging exactly once, a pitbull latched on to my forearm, and I shot it in the chest with an LCR to end the attack (revolver, the thing you were sure I wasn't carrying...).

Awe shit. Now you’ve done it. You mentioned the Breed of Peace. This thread is about to go to hell. ;)

I kid, I kid. It could have just as easily been a Dachshund (corrected for Lex so that his glorified gerbil doesn’t get a case of the ass;))

[Lex Luthier]

Awe shit. Now you’ve done it. You mentioned the Breed of Peace. This thread is about to go to hell. ;)

I kid, I kid. It could have just as easily been a dotson.

My dox snorted when he read that typo. They are contrary creatures to be sure, but curiously good at spelling in English.

( all taking the p!$$ aside, there are some very useful bits of perspective here to ponder.)

[hiro]

My dox snorted when he read that typo. They are contrary creatures to be sure, but curiously good at spelling in English.

( all taking the p!$$ aside, there are some very useful bits of perspective here to ponder.)

Ahh, so you're asking is the horse in the box able to be both dead and alive simultaneously?

[TGS]

If I can carry a G17, why not, so I do.

I liked a lot of what you wrote, just wanted to ask out of curiosity....did you recently switch back to carrying a Glock 17 from the 43x? I thought you were all about the latter as of recent.

[Trooper224]

Awe shit. Now you’ve done it. You mentioned the Breed of Peace. This thread is about to go to hell. ;)

I kid, I kid. It could have just as easily been a Dachshund (corrected for Lex so that his glorified gerbil doesn’t get a case of the ass;))

A crusader will show up shortly, lecturing BBI on how he should have communicated with the sacred cow more effectively, used pepper spray or some such bag of magic beans. That would fit right in with this thread.

[BehindBlueI's]

I liked a lot of what you wrote, just wanted to ask out of curiosity....did you recently switch back to carrying a Glock 17 from the 43x? I thought you were all about the latter as of recent.

On duty and *most* off duty stuff, I am carrying the 17M again. We had been given to believe red dots would be approved, but our administrators are subscribing to the PF definition of Soon(tm). In day light, I can shoot the irons only 43X adequately. As light fades, so does my performance. As such, I didn't feel comfortable with it at night any longer and went back to the 17M. This means I've also went back to strong side carry, as no Gadget for the duty gun since I can't modify it. If Soon(tm) ever comes, I'll probably go to 45MOS/43X MOS combo but I may be retired or issued a plasma pistol prior to that occurring.

Of perhaps no interest to anybody at all, I also kicked around going back to the P226 because I still really like TDA pistols for people managing... but, get this, I still think they'll let me carry a dot at some point because I'm that damned dumb. :D

[BehindBlueI's]

A crusader will show up shortly, lecturing BBI on how he should have communicated with the sacred cow more effectively, used pepper spray or some such bag of magic beans. That would fit right in with this thread.

I mean, I was going to gloss over fine motor skills because fuck me, but if there's magic beans on the line...

[hiro]

A crusader will show up shortly, lecturing BBI on how he should have communicated with the spherical cow more effectively, used pepper spray or some such bag of magic beans. That would fit right in with this thread.

FIFY

[Trooper224]

I mean, I was going to gloss over fine motor skills because fuck me, but if there's magic beans on the line...

A high cap, 15+ bag of magic beans at that. With a BUB (back up bean) in an AIWB pouch.

[BehindBlueI's]

A high cap, 15+ bag of magic beans at that. With a BUB (back up bean) in an AIWB pouch.

Damn dude, quit selling. You got me.

[JCN]

As if the horse isn't dead enough, we're going to keep beating it with a new stick by bringing up "fine motor skills"?

Can someone talk about STOPPING POWER and DIASTOLIC PRESSURES and 40 CAL…..

[Joe in PNG]

Can someone talk about STOPPING POWER and DIASTOLIC PRESSURES and 40 CAL…..

TWO WORLD WARS!!!!! THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL!!!!

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm equally culpable here, but I'm not going to try and sort this thread out. Moved to GD for all the obvious reasons.

[03RN]

This isn't personal but I've had these conversations so many times I just don't feel like breaking it down like Barney again. Maybe someone who has the time or energy can direct you to one of a multitude of prior threads, but as a quick synopsis: Because it doesn't cost you anything to carry extra ammo assuming everything else is equal, which it generally isn't. If I can carry a G17, why not, so I do. I'm a cop in a state where nobody gives a shit I have a gun and there's no penalty for "getting made".

But then I sometimes do activities that carrying a G17 is not really feasible and my threat level is exceedingly low. I went for a jog in my neighborhood today. I've needed a gun while jogging exactly once, a pitbull latched on to my forearm, and I shot it in the chest with an LCR to end the attack (revolver, the thing you were sure I wasn't carrying...). Then I got confronted by the owner, who was unsurprisingly a shitbag and was locked up for burglary about a week later. I was pretty glad to have my little LCR that I could easily carry while jogging vs having nothing if I was stuck in the capacity fetish. Or, I could not jog and increase my risk of heart disease which is much more likely to kill me than not enough ammo...

When I travel out of state, especially by airplane, I routinely take a revolver. I don't have to concern myself with mag restrictions, I can silently load and make ready in an airport bathroom on my way out and be armed by the time I hit the taxi stand (no slide to run, a rather distinctive sound nobody wants to hear in the airport...) and I can run a padlock through the window to easily secure it in a nonfunctioning state when required.

So it depends on the context.

Mas and I are well acquainted and he's invited me to collaborate a few times, I've helped him a few times, etc. I say that to say I both like and respect Mas and understand that he needs things to talk about to a very wide audience and it's impossible to delve deeply into given context in that sort of format. He's talking to "the masses", not any given individual with a given skill set and a given threat assessment.

The LCR would make a good fanny pack gun. I sweat like a mo fo on long summer runs so use a g19 but just because it's the easiest gun I have to bust rust off.

[03RN]

Have you had much recent training? The concept of being concerned with ‘fine motor skills’ when we know that fine motor skills such as sight alignment and trigger press can be accomplished in a fight seems a little outmoded.

Try adjusting the feed pawls on a SAW under fire.

[BehindBlueI's]

The LCR would make a good fanny pack gun.

That's how I carried it. I ended up getting a different pack though, one that doesn't flop around at all, and it's sized for my 43X.

[Robinson]

TWO WORLD WARS!!!!! THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL!!!!

FINALLY someone brings reason to the discussion.

[Cecil Burch]

4) The standard should probably be to carry the platform(s) that allows you to reliably make the most efficient hits on the target in a variety of situations while conforming to the concealment circumstances of the day. This incorporates aspects of experience; resources for training such as the cost of ammo, holsters that won’t imprint; injuries that preclude certain calibers or platforms; etc. ”


That may very well be the most succinct and accurate way to explain this I have ever heard.

Stealing it

:)

[Duces Tecum]

Todd essentially put the front sight on what he was intending to hit and rotated the rear sight up to where the front sight was. It fits in with the "front sight focus" doctrine. A couple of years ago at a Tim Herron class I realized that approach was really backwards.

Now when I present the gun, I get the gun level in front of my eye as quickly as possible so I can see through my rear sight window. Or optic. It makes the question of dots or irons essentially moot as the presentation gives you either sighting system in front of your eye sooner allowing you to "see" more and make a better shot.

Backwards, indeed.

I have learned to bracket the target with the wings of my rear sight and to quickly press the trigger. This works out to 12, possibly 15, yards. During the follow-through I look at the front sight to confirm alignment. It reads an awful lot like what you do, TC.


Duces

[Hambo]

It could have just as easily been a Dachshund (corrected for Lex so that his glorified gerbil doesn’t get a case of the ass;))

One of my Labs was attacked by a Dachshund. He picked it up in his mouth and carried it around proudly while the little fucker cursed him in German.