Keep on Rollin': HK P9S & CZ-52

[MattyD380]

Through the sheer grace of coincidence, I managed to acquire the only two roller-locking handguns in existence (I think?), within the span of about 2 weeks. I saw the CZ-52 at a pawn shop for $250. I saw the HK P9S on Armslist for... more than that.

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So... Merry Christmas me.

To be clear, the CZ-52 is roller locked and the HK P9S is roller delayed. In most respects, they're nothing alike. Other than fact they both have rollers and they're both neat. And that gives me an excuse to make a thread on PF about both of them.

HK P9S

Damn. This thing can shoot. I've heard it described as a "one-hole gun." I see why.

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The accuracy feels very direct. Very intuitive. Like there's less of a "proxy" between your point of aim and your point of impact. And I suppose that makes sense--the P9S uses a fixed barrel. But unlike a straight blowback gun, the P9S has a telescoping bolt/breech face with little rollers on it... which lock into little nooks on a trunnion that extends back from the rear-end of the barrel. So, the rollers slow down the cycle and that helps keeps the pressure contained... while also making every shot feel silky smooth. You can see the little half-moon "nooks" there in the center of all that metallic complexity--that's where the rollers live, when in battery.

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The single-action trigger is also fantastic. Very light. Very crisp. Even shooting fairly fast, I was holding tight patterns on the target. I put 150 rounds through it. 100% reliable. 100% accurate AF and fun to shoot.

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Interestingly, some digging on HKPro revealed that this was one of the Malaysian police imports that (I guess) came in through Centerfire Systems in the last few years. But it's been completely overhauled. Refinished. Buffer replaced. Small parts/springs replaced. New trigger guard. There's no serial number on the barrel or the slide. They may not even be original to the gun. But hey... the thing can freakin' shoot. So who cares.

CZ-52

This poor thing was a sight for sore eyes. Rust. Holster wear. Barely any of its original 1950s phosphate finish left. But I've always thought the lines and the proportions of the CZ-52 were gorgeous. And for the price... what the hell.

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I cleaned it up and replaced the recoil spring before shooting. I put 100 rounds through it. Mag dumped as fast as I could pull the trigger. It fired, fed, extracted and locked back every time. And the thing is... so much fun to shoot. You get a big blast from the 7.62x25 round. But hardly any recoil. In a way, it's the exact opposite of the P9S--you feel very insulated from the shot. And the recoil impulse. So you just want to keep blasting away... and, in my case, hit absolutely nothing.

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Unlike the P9s, the CZ-52 is a locked-breech pistol. In a way, the rollers kinda perform the same roll (ha!) as the locking block in a Beretta 92. In battery, they lock into recesses in the slide, then they get pushed out of those recesses (inward) to unlock the slide from the barrel. It feels somewhat like a Beretta 92, I guess? You get a very relaxed, very "attenuated" recoil impulse.

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I'd get some decent accuracy for a few shots with the thing... then I'd start getting flyers. The bore has some light pitting here and there, but the rifling is still clear and sharp. I think it can probably shoot better than I was shooting it. Plus, after a certain point, I just started blasting to see if the thing could handle rapid fire. It did.

Anyway... fun times. Figured some of you guys might enjoy these blasts from the past. I think both guns are fascinating from an engineering standpoint. In fact, you might say... I like how they roll.

Sorry :)

[JRB]

I've lusted for a P9S for a long, long time. I never thought to compare it directly to a CZ52 but it really does just make so much sense.

Great thread, great pics - I love P-F!

Thanks for taking the time to share this

[fatdog]

Just a tip, as P9s magazines are very scarce, I was able to use unmodified P1/P38 Walther mags which are much more common, relatively much less expensive, and it always ran. It just gave up one round over the factory mag but saved me a lot of time at the range as I always like to show up with loaded mags.

Mine was also very accurate. I guess I played with it and enjoyed it as a range toy for about a decade then passed it on to one of my neighbors who was obsessed with it. Then after a few years he sold it on Gunbroker for twice what he paid me for it:eek:

Hope you enjoy those two. And as far as I know those are the only two roller locking pistols.

[JonInWA]

Great post. And, should you be interested, there are 9mm conversion barrels available for the CZ 52. I agree, both guns are intriguing.

Best, Jon

[42Willys]

Great post! Beautiful additions to your collection, well done. And, great shooting with the HK.

[Sig_Fiend]

The P9S is probably the coolest suppressor host as far as pistols go, IMO. The engineering and craftsmanship is old school cool x10.

[MattyD380]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the kind words. I'm thrilled I got to chance to experience these fascinating specimens. And I'm especially thrilled with how well the P9S shoots. Certainly my expectations were lower with the CZ-52. But I enjoy the gun, nonetheless. And I think I can get some better accuracy out of it. JonInWA, I may grab a 9mm barrel at some point. Tok ammo isn't exactly easy to find, these days.

fatdog - Thanks for that tip. I tried a Walther P5 mag in my P9S--locked in perfectly. Follower seems to be in the right place to feed, too. I actually got 8 legit P9S mags with the gun. The guy just kept on pulling 'em out. Overall, I think it was solid deal for what I got.

[BillSWPA]

Nice finds!

If you do get a 9mm conversion barrel for the CZ, always be aware of which barrel is installed. A 9mm cartridge will fit into the chamber of a 7.62x25, and the back ends of both cases will protrude the same amount. However, firing the 9mm in the wrong barrel would obviously not go well.


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[Sig_Fiend]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the kind words. I'm thrilled I got to chance to experience these fascinating specimens. And I'm especially thrilled with how well the P9S shoots. Certainly my expectations were lower with the CZ-52. But I enjoy the gun, nonetheless. And I think I can get some better accuracy out of it. JonInWA, I may grab a 9mm barrel at some point. Tok ammo isn't exactly easy to find, these days.

fatdog - Thanks for that tip. I tried a Walther P5 mag in my P9S--locked in perfectly. Follower seems to be in the right place to feed, too. I actually got 8 legit P9S mags with the gun. The guy just kept on pulling 'em out. Overall, I think it was solid deal for what I got.

Forgot to say congrats! Those two are nice additions to any collection. Anyone that appreciates finely-crafted works of any kind needs a P9S. It will make you yearn for the days when we built things like they mattered.

I definitely recommend checking the buffer (http://www.mdwguns.com/hkp9s.html) in the P9S and replacing it (https://hkparts.net/product/hk-p9-p9s-recoil-buffer-p1449.htm/) if it looks degraded. It's quick and easy to do, just have to be careful not to strip the two screws.

The CZ-52 is an often overlooked and hidden gem IMO. A cool piece of history and intriguing design ahead of its time. In point and fact, the robust firing pin safety design (linear/vertical barrel or block with a single coil spring) it has is the type most modern pistols use today. Near as I can tell, I think the CZ-52 was the first production pistol to use it. Best I've been able to trace it, that FPS design was based on earlier prototypes of either the CZ 471 or CZ 481 (http://www.vhu.cz/pistole-cz-481/) (~1947-1948), or both (details are sparse). I've not been able to find another production pistol before this with the same style FPS. Good ideas stand the test of time. I seriously regret not buying a dozen of them back when they were available as cheap as ~$150 from several surplus retailers maybe a decade ago. 7.62x25 is a spicy little meatball too. ;)

[JAD]

I will try to dig our ‘Cooper on Handguns’ and see if it waxes on about the P9 (SA version) in the way I remember.

[John Hearne]

I’ve wanted a P9 since watching Hunter on TV back in the day…

[Gater]

Congrats on the gun and thank you for sharing--great post.

Looking at them together reminds me of the below Bloke on the Range video on locked vs delayed...it (and the FW videos he references) helped me get a handle on the difference.


https://youtu.be/CxRWlO0wrI8

[Vista461]

I had one probably around 15 years ago. Kinda regret selling it. Also bought a case of Bulgarian ammo for it too when it was cheap.

I remember being warned that sometimes the decocker may fail and fire the gun instead of just decocking.

[Jim Watson]

There are a couple more roller action pistols, but expensive showpiece types, I think the Korriphila is one.

There are aftermarket hardened rollers for the CZ, that might tighten it up.

[HCM]

There are a couple more roller action pistols, but expensive showpiece types, I think the Korriphila is one.


That name is a little too close to something else for comfort…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophilia

[MattyD380]

Forgot to say congrats! Those two are nice additions to any collection. Anyone that appreciates finely-crafted works of any kind needs a P9S. It will make you yearn for the days when we built things like they mattered.

I definitely recommend checking the buffer (http://www.mdwguns.com/hkp9s.html) in the P9S and replacing it (https://hkparts.net/product/hk-p9-p9s-recoil-buffer-p1449.htm/) if it looks degraded. It's quick and easy to do, just have to be careful not to strip the two screws.

The CZ-52 is an often overlooked and hidden gem IMO. A cool piece of history and intriguing design ahead of its time. In point and fact, the robust firing pin safety design (linear/vertical barrel or block with a single coil spring) it has is the type most modern pistols use today. Near as I can tell, I think the CZ-52 was the first production pistol to use it. Best I've been able to trace it, that FPS design was based on earlier prototypes of either the CZ 471 or CZ 481 (http://www.vhu.cz/pistole-cz-481/) (~1947-1948), or both (details are sparse). I've not been able to find another production pistol before this with the same style FPS. Good ideas stand the test of time. I seriously regret not buying a dozen of them back when they were available as cheap as ~$150 from several surplus retailers maybe a decade ago. 7.62x25 is a spicy little meatball too. ;)

Thanks, man! I appreciate it.

Seller told me he'd replaced the buffer recently--said he only had about 100 - 150 rounds on it at this point. So, I'm inclined to believe him.

Nevertheless... I wouldn't mind checking it. Thanks for the how-to info. But I have heard that reinstalling it can be kind of a headache--I recall reading something about having to compress the buffer while screwing in the screw(s)? That sounds like it could be somewhat F-bomb inducing. If I just wanted to check it, is that something I'd have to deal with? Or is there a way to expose the buffer without de-compressing/removing it, etc.?

That's interesting the CZ-52 pioneered the modern FPS. You've probably seen "The sad story of the CZ-52" on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWG2zRr5SLc. This guy goes into detail on the development of the gun. He does mentioned the 471. Very interesting. For some reason, I always expected the thing to feel flimsy and "cobbled together." Probably because you always hear how the decocker and the firing pin are prone to break. But it feels tight, solid and well made. Even being 70 years old.

And the decocker works fine, from what I can tell--no bangs at the range. In some forum, I read that the importer actually recognized this issue and made some repairs. The guns that have been udpated have a "Z" marked on the root of the trigger guard. Which mine has. Still probably won't be using it on live rounds... but. Interesting tidbit, nonetheless.

[Sig_Fiend]

Nevertheless... I wouldn't mind checking it. Thanks for the how-to info. But I have heard that reinstalling it can be kind of a headache--I recall reading something about having to compress the buffer while screwing in the screw(s)? That sounds like it could be somewhat F-bomb inducing. If I just wanted to check it, is that something I'd have to deal with? Or is there a way to expose the buffer without de-compressing/removing it, etc.?


It's been maybe 12yrs since I changed one, so my memory is fuzzy. From what I remember, you have to push the buffer housing to the rear, towards the buffer piston, to align the screw hole and the buffer support plate. Along with this, you have the two piece screw to screw in, while applying pressure to the buffer housing to keep the screw hole in alignment.

I don't remember it feeling impossible. I just remember it being annoying and feeling like nearly every time I've performed even basic maintenance on a German car (e.g. "This is going to be harder than it should have been").

[MattyD380]

Congrats on the gun and thank you for sharing--great post.

Looking at them together reminds me of the below Bloke on the Range video on locked vs delayed...it (and the FW videos he references) helped me get a handle on the difference.


https://youtu.be/CxRWlO0wrI8

Thank you! I appreciate it. And that's a really interesting video. Thanks for sharing.

Ian McCollum has a series of videos covering the differences, but Bloke offers some good perspective. It seems the main difference comes down to whether or not the rollers bear on a slanted surface or a flat surface when the system is in battery. For my non-engineering brain... the most obvious difference is that the 52's barrel retracts along with the slide (like any locked breech gun) and the rollers are what "lock" the barrel and slide together during that cycle. The P9's barrel just stays put, and the rollers (I guess) mainly serve to increase the friction/time/resistance before the action opens.

Another thing that's cool about the P9S... and I think Bloke touches on this (the "S" value, I believe?)... is that the bolt head/carrier actually telescope (extend?) in the recoil cycle.

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So, the ejection port essentially stays closed for another split second, even after the slide starts to move back under recoil. Also interesting, is that the chamber has flutes (which help "float" the casing out of the chamber) and the the extractor is actually on top of the slide/breech face. That seems like a "natural" place to put the extractor. I mean, the back of the cartridge is going up as it feeds, after all. I'm guessing normal locked-breech mechanics preclude that extractor placement, for whatever reason.

In any case...

It seems like one has to jump through quite a few engineering "hoops" to get a fixed barrel in a major caliber--and HK was all about it, for a while (P9, P7, VP70). But man... I think you do see some benefits in terms of that very "direct" sensation of accuracy.

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper's comment on the P9S - all that plastic and stamped sheet metal, then they put the money they saved back into an elaborate barrel extension and bolt.

I looked up a couple of the other exotic roller actions, the Delta Top Gun and the Geiger.

[MattyD380]

I don't remember it feeling impossible. I just remember it being annoying and feeling like nearly every time I've performed even basic maintenance on a German car (e.g. "This is going to be harder than it should have been").

Haha. That sounds about right. And it sounds, more or less, like what I've heard.

I'll probably get brave and try it one of these days. And I'm sure I'll regret it for an hour as I try to squeeze the thing back together. The screws still have serviceable slots, but they have been somewhat buggered. Or... I may also just send it to the gentle on HKPro who specializes in P9s and P7s, at some point. Might be nice to have his perspective on the rest of the pistol, as well.

In any case... thanks for the info.

[MattyD380]

Jeff Cooper's comment on the P9S - all that plastic and stamped sheet metal, then they put the money they saved back into an elaborate barrel extension and bolt.

I looked up a couple of the other exotic roller actions, the Delta Top Gun and the Geiger.

I've never heard of the Delta Top Gun! I get excited when I learn that semi-auto pistols I've never heard of still exist. LifeSizePotato has a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spYbOks31OU He's kinda my gun hipster muse.

Also... yes. I forgot about the Korriphila guns. Ian has a cool video explaining those: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOvEy7TWyOI Basically, it seems like a roller-delay system, but it uses one big roller on the top of the bolt to achieve basically the same thing the P9S does.

Also, the Korth PRS uses a system that looks almost identical to the P9S system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ZdYUPtp7g&t=20s

[Joe in PNG]

I wonder if it would be possible to convert the CZ52 to .38 Super.

[Screwball]

I picked up a CZ-52 back when I changed my FFL-03 from NJ to ME. Had a Yugo Tokarev back then with the 1911 safety… but eventually swapped it out with a Chinese that I swapped the trigger out.

I sold a Ruger .44 carbine, which I also got a 9mm barrel for the CZ. They are out there, but not as available as they are made out to be.

I upgraded the firing pin, extractor, and put in harden rollers for both barrels. The 9mm barrel I had plated to make it different from the 7.62mm barrel.

[Jim Watson]

I wonder if it would be possible to convert the CZ52 to .38 Super.

Like Will Rogers, all I know is what I read on the internet.
There used to be a wild and crazy experimenter on some of the gun boards aka "Clark".
He warned of rechambering the CZ52 to a hot loaded 9mm because the step-down of the barrel forming a shoulder for the recoil spring falls over the neck of the .30 chamber. Therefore it would be a thin spot and square corner over the neck or mouth of a 9mm Whatever. Obviously enough safety margin for the 9mm P conversions, ought to hold a Super if the breech face will accept the semi-rim.
He thought the Tokarev was actually stronger, roller action notwithstanding.

[bac1023]

Couple incorrect things here/

First off, the P9S is not a locked breech gun. It’s a roller delayed blowback. The CZ52 is completely different design, which actually is a locked breech.

Second, the P9S shares its design with the Korriphila HSP, Korth PRS, and Geiger GRP. All are roller delayed blowbacks.

The Delta Top Gun also uses the CZ’s design, of a roller locked breech.

I own them all.

[Joe in PNG]

Couple incorrect things here/

First off, the P9S is not a locked breech gun. It’s a roller delayed blowback. The CZ52 is completely different design, which actually is a locked breech.

Second, the P9S shares its design with the Korriphila HSP, Korth PRS, and Geiger GRP. All are roller delayed blowbacks.

The Delta Top Gun also uses the CZ’s design, of a roller locked breech.

I own them all.

We demand photos!

[bac1023]

Through the sheer grace of coincidence, I managed to acquire the only two roller-locking handguns in existence (I think?), within the span of about 2 weeks. I saw the CZ-52 at a pawn shop for $250. I saw the HK P9S on Armslist for... more than that.

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So... Merry Christmas me.

To be clear, the CZ-52 is roller locked and the HK P9S is roller delayed. In most respects, they're nothing alike. Other than fact they both have rollers and they're both neat. And that gives me an excuse to make a thread on PF about both of them.

HK P9S

Damn. This thing can shoot. I've heard it described as a "one-hole gun." I see why.

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The accuracy feels very direct. Very intuitive. Like there's less of a "proxy" between your point of aim and your point of impact. And I suppose that makes sense--the P9S uses a fixed barrel. But unlike a straight blowback gun, the P9S has a telescoping bolt/breech face with little rollers on it... which lock into little nooks on a trunnion that extends back from the rear-end of the barrel. So, the rollers slow down the cycle and that helps keeps the pressure contained... while also making every shot feel silky smooth. You can see the little half-moon "nooks" there in the center of all that metallic complexity--that's where the rollers live, when in battery.

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The single-action trigger is also fantastic. Very light. Very crisp. Even shooting fairly fast, I was holding tight patterns on the target. I put 150 rounds through it. 100% reliable. 100% accurate AF and fun to shoot.

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Interestingly, some digging on HKPro revealed that this was one of the Malaysian police imports that (I guess) came in through Centerfire Systems in the last few years. But it's been completely overhauled. Refinished. Buffer replaced. Small parts/springs replaced. New trigger guard. There's no serial number on the barrel or the slide. They may not even be original to the gun. But hey... the thing can freakin' shoot. So who cares.

CZ-52

This poor thing was a sight for sore eyes. Rust. Holster wear. Barely any of its original 1950s phosphate finish left. But I've always thought the lines and the proportions of the CZ-52 were gorgeous. And for the price... what the hell.

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I cleaned it up and replaced the recoil spring before shooting. I put 100 rounds through it. Mag dumped as fast as I could pull the trigger. It fired, fed, extracted and locked back every time. And the thing is... so much fun to shoot. You get a big blast from the 7.62x25 round. But hardly any recoil. In a way, it's the exact opposite of the P9S--you feel very insulated from the shot. And the recoil impulse. So you just want to keep blasting away... and, in my case, hit absolutely nothing.

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Unlike the P9s, the CZ-52 is a locked-breech pistol. In a way, the rollers kinda perform the same roll (ha!) as the locking block in a Beretta 92. In battery, they lock into recesses in the slide, then they get pushed out of those recesses (inward) to unlock the slide from the barrel. It feels somewhat like a Beretta 92, I guess? You get a very relaxed, very "attenuated" recoil impulse.

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I'd get some decent accuracy for a few shots with the thing... then I'd start getting flyers. The bore has some light pitting here and there, but the rifling is still clear and sharp. I think it can probably shoot better than I was shooting it. Plus, after a certain point, I just started blasting to see if the thing could handle rapid fire. It did.

Anyway... fun times. Figured some of you guys might enjoy these blasts from the past. I think both guns are fascinating from an engineering standpoint. In fact, you might say... I like how they roll.

Sorry :)

Only the CZ is a roller locked breech design. Your P9S is a roller delayed blowback (which Germans refer to as a “roller lock”). Two completely different designs.

…and they aren’t the only one of either design. See my post above

[MattyD380]

Couple incorrect things here/

First off, the P9S is not a locked breech gun. It’s a roller delayed blowback. The CZ52 is completely different design, which actually is a locked breech.

Second, the P9S shares its design with the Korriphila HSP, Korth PRS, and Geiger GRP. All are roller delayed blowbacks.

The Delta Top Gun also uses the CZ’s design, of a roller locked breech.

I own them all.

Thanks for the clarification. Though I did note the distinction between roller locked and roller delayed in my initial post. About halfway through the thread, we also went into greater depth on the unique mechanics of both.

Regardless...

I second Joe in PNG. Photos! No doubt, you've got a lot of... "high rollers" in your collection :cool:

I figure we can't have too many roll puns in a thread about roller actions...

[bac1023]

We demand photos!

Will do

I’ll try to get some posted tomorrow

[bac1023]

Thanks for the clarification. Though I did note the distinction between roller locked and roller delayed in my initial post. About halfway through the thread, we also went into greater depth on the unique mechanics of both.

Regardless...

I second Joe in PNG. Photos! No doubt, you've got a lot of... "high rollers" in your collection :cool:

I figure we can't have too many roll puns in a thread about roller actions...

For sure. I’ll get them posted tomorrow.

Congrats on your additions.

[MattyD380]

For sure. I’ll get them posted tomorrow.

Congrats on your additions.

Thank you, sir!

Looking forward to seeing your fine specimens.

[bac1023]

There are a couple more roller action pistols, but expensive showpiece types, I think the Korriphila is one.

There are aftermarket hardened rollers for the CZ, that might tighten it up.

Yes Jim, all the other pistols of either design, whether it be the delayed blowback or locked breech, are high end and expensive. The only one that uses the CZ design is the Delta Top Gun.

One just sold last yesterday. Uses the same design as the CZ, albeit with the quality and rarity meter set to extreme.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/956470146



The Korriphila and Geiger are roller delayed blowbacks, like the P9S.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/953805630

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/957796878

The Korth PRS is another roller delayed blowback. They bring big money as well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=02ZdYUPtp7g

[bac1023]

Sorry for the delay in getting a picture posted.

Here are four German roller delayed blowbacks and a Delta Top Gun from Italy (which is a roller locked breech like the CZ) in the middle.

From left to right: Korriphila HSP701, Geiger GRP, Delta Top Gun, Korth PRS, HK P9S Sport (sorry I no longer own a standard P9S or CZ 52).

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/LQKh9S.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnLQKh9Sj)


Also, the easiest way to tell a blowback from a locked breech is simply pulling the slide backwards. If the slide and barrel separate immediately, you have a blowback. If they "stick" together for a millimeter or two before separating, you have a locked breech. Your HK will separate immediately. Your CZ will lock together briefly.

Its really that simple.

Hope this helps! :)

[MattyD380]

Sorry for the delay in getting a picture posted.

Here are four German roller delayed blowbacks and a Delta Top Gun from Italy (which is a roller locked breech like the CZ) in the middle.

From left to right: Korriphila HSP701, Geiger GRP, Delta Top Gun, Korth PRS, HK P9S Sport (sorry I no longer own a standard P9S or CZ 52).

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/LQKh9S.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnLQKh9Sj)


Also, the easiest way to tell a blowback from a locked breech is simply pulling the slide backwards. If the slide and barrel separate immediately, you have a blowback. If they "stick" together for a millimeter or two before separating, you have a locked breech. Your HK will separate immediately. Your CZ will lock together briefly.

Its really that simple.

Hope this helps! :)

Wow. Your collection is truly museum worthy. You have some of the finest handguns ever made.

For me, the lines and the proportions of the Korriphila are just... perfect. Even the mechanics have this elegant sense of the efficiency that, I think, complements the staid design. Ian McCollum has a video explaining how it works; it seems a little simpler than the HK pattern: one roller, toward the back of the bolt assembly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOvEy7TWyOI&t=593s

Good observation on the roller delay vs. locked breech. Generally, it seems like any gun with a fixed barrel falls into some permutation of blowback; if the barrel moves, you've got a locked-breech situation. I'm not sure that's not universally applicable, but... seems to be true most of the time.

[Bucky]

Wow. Your collection is truly museum worthy. You have some of the finest handguns ever made.


This is just the tip of the iceberg. :)

[bac1023]

Wow. Your collection is truly museum worthy. You have some of the finest handguns ever made.

For me, the lines and the proportions of the Korriphila are just... perfect. Even the mechanics have this elegant sense of the efficiency that, I think, complements the staid design. Ian McCollum has a video explaining how it works; it seems a little simpler than the HK pattern: one roller, toward the back of the bolt assembly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOvEy7TWyOI&t=593s

Good observation on the roller delay vs. locked breech. Generally, it seems like any gun with a fixed barrel falls into some permutation of blowback; if the barrel moves, you've got a locked-breech situation. I'm not sure that's not universally applicable, but... seems to be true most of the time.

Thank you sir

Yeah I’ve seen Ian’s Korriphila video. He did a nice job. The one I posted is a rare SAO Target model in 9mm. I also have a shorter barrel 45ACP duty model.

As for the fixed barrel, yes, that’s generally the rule, but not all blowback pistol barrels are as rigid as others. Like I said, the simple way is just to pull back the slide. That’s a fail safe way of determining it.

[Super77]

It drives me irrationally crazy how the dust cover on that Geiger pistol extends past the cut on the slide.

Very cool guns nevertheless. Amazing collection Bac.

[MattyD380]

This is just the tip of the iceberg. :)

I mean… I won’t complain if we see more.

Didn’t Korth make some other semi-auto prior to the PRS?

I have faith Bac can deliver… 😁

[bac1023]

It drives me irrationally crazy how the dust cover on that Geiger pistol extends past the cut on the slide.

Very cool guns nevertheless. Amazing collection Bac.

Yes, I could do without that too, but I think its done to add strength to the design.

[bac1023]

Jeff Cooper's comment on the P9S - all that plastic and stamped sheet metal, then they put the money they saved back into an elaborate barrel extension and bolt.



Yes Jim

The P9S construction is cheap on the outside, but very finely built and robust internally.

[bac1023]

I mean… I won’t complain if we see more.

Didn’t Korth make some other semi-auto prior to the PRS?

I have faith Bac can deliver… 😁

I am impressed with your knowledge of exotic pistols.

Yes, it was originally designed by Willi Korth, which was well before the current Korth owners (who designed the PRS) were in the picture. Korth's factory is now located in Lollar. Willi's original company was located in Ratzeburg. The Korth Autopistol was not a blowback. It used a falling block locked breech design, similar to that of a Walther P38 or Beretta 92, but aslo with some major differences.

I'm fortunate enough to own a couple of them and have had them for years. Honestly, I doubt I'd buy another today even if I could find them with the prices they command. That being said, they are exquisitely made handguns. Willi died before he completely perfected the design, but I love them the way they are.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/97CfmD.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po97CfmDj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/77F3iy.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn77F3iyj)

[bac1023]

Here is the Korriphila pistol in better detail...

I can tell you that absolutely no expense was spared in their production or materials used. Even the roll marks are perfectly executed.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/XDSwGZ.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poXDSwGZj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/cEaED1.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmcEaED1j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/RddDr6.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmRddDr6j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/x2kKyo.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pox2kKyoj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/l09kik.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pll09kikj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/8gYydH.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm8gYydHj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/7sTgjG.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po7sTgjGj)








https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/r3qj2g.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/por3qj2gj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/BwF8IW.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmBwF8IWj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/MZSVQp.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnMZSVQpj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/GUGMG6.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmGUGMG6j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/921/Lpecoy.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plLpecoyj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/PWktiN.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmPWktiNj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/YgiiLP.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnYgiiLPj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/1PgSay.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm1PgSayj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/DXeXIY.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmDXeXIYj)

[bac1023]

Here is the Geiger GRP in detail. Quality is very similar to that of the Korriphila, but likely with better metallurgy being its 30+ years later.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/8hsIWQ.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po8hsIWQj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/qdla3t.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmqdla3tj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/80NjnD.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm80NjnDj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/ogEGzI.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnogEGzIj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/jglcI0.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmjglcI0j)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/Wb4bQY.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnWb4bQYj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/AH9bjg.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poAH9bjgj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/QKARfq.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poQKARfqj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/gfqbLY.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pogfqbLYj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/ckAy0y.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pockAy0yj)

[MattyD380]

I am impressed with your knowledge of exotic pistols.

Yes, it was originally designed by Willi Korth, which was well before the current Korth owners (who designed the PRS) were in the picture. Korth's factory is now located in Lollar. Willi's original company was located in Ratzeburg. The Korth Autopistol was not a blowback. It used a falling block locked breech design, similar to that of a Walther P38 or Beretta 92, but aslo with some major differences.

I'm fortunate enough to own a couple of them and have had them for years. Honestly, I doubt I'd buy another today even if I could find them with the prices they command. That being said, they are exquisitely made handguns. Willi died before he completely perfected the design, but I love them the way they are.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/97CfmD.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po97CfmDj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/77F3iy.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn77F3iyj)

Wow. Those are fantastic. Something a little more "old world" about the design/aesthetic... which I love.

When I was first getting into guns about 10-15 years ago, this shoddy website--modernfirearms.net--sorta provided the basis of my knowledge of pistols. It lists various guns and their countries of origin--I must have read through them all a million times. And, interestingly, it lists the original Korth auto pistols (not the PRS) which have always stuck with me as being especially neat. It also lists the Korriphila.

My "dream gun" was always a Walther P88. Finally grabbed one this year. Not exactly Korth-level... but I love it.

97924

Not surprisingly a P7 has always been on my list. But... the P9S is almost as cool.

[bac1023]

Wow. Those are fantastic. Something a little more "old world" about the design/aesthetic... which I love.

When I was first getting into guns about 10-15 years ago, this shoddy website--modernfirearms.net--sorta provided the basis of my knowledge of pistols. It lists various guns and their countries of origin--I must have read through them all a million times. And, interestingly, it lists the original Korth auto pistols (not the PRS) which have always stuck with me as being especially neat. It also lists the Korriphila.

My "dream gun" was always a Walther P88. Finally grabbed one this year. Not exactly Korth-level... but I love it.

97924

Not surprisingly a P7 has always been on my list. But... the P9S is almost as cool.

Yes, I remember the website. The PRS was not around at the time.

As for the P88, congrats on a nice Compact. The Compact is a little different than the full size. Its not just smaller, but also thinner and the controls are a bit different. Also, not sure if you're aware or not, but Walther did offer a couple SAO sporting pistols based on the P88 back in the day, albeit they are rare.

Here are the P88 Competition and P88 Champion on the outside with a P88 and P88 Compact in the center. The nickel triggers on the sporting models are single action only.


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/66XVvY.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm66XVvYj)

[Jim Watson]

I have always wondered what the market was for the Competition and Champion, also SIG Sauer Sports.
They don't seem to fit anything in IPSC or ISU.

[bac1023]

I have always wondered what the market was for the Competition and Champion, also SIG Sauer Sports.
They don't seem to fit anything in IPSC or ISU.

I don't think they fit in anywhere, Jim. They just look cool and shoot well.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/ndxmqV.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pondxmqVj)