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View Full Version : AIWB in IPSC Limited/Limited 10



ChrisG
09-30-2012, 08:11 PM
I know there are several board members who have used AIWB carry rigs in IPSC. I'd like to try this route in order to get more practice in gunhandling and shooting skills under competition pressure. For those who have trod this path before, I have a couple questions:

1) Do you compete in Limited or Limited 10 and why?

2) Do you primarily use in-battery reloads or do you shoot to slidelock, and why?

Slidelock reloads are a higher priority skill for me, and I'd like to avoid carrying a huge number of extra mags. On the other hand, using in-battery reloads would make it easier to compare my overall time to other competitors. What say the pistol cognescenti?

Prdator
09-30-2012, 08:50 PM
I have no idea what "category" I have shot in, nor do I care. The IPSC guys let me shoot from AIWB, and didn't laugh at me after the first stage. I ran to slide lock every time, on the reloads.

Im only competing to make ME better. In my First "big" IPSC match I was teamed up with some really good guys, one is a GM and I got in a "A game" pool with him, most hits to the A's get lunch bought, I lost by one, and we were Well ahead of the pack.

Shokr21
09-30-2012, 08:51 PM
If you want to compete shooting from concealment from an AIWB rig you're obviously not "too" worried about where you place among the other competitors. Seems to me, like you stated, that you want to get some of the pressure of competition and others looking on while you shoot how you carry. Nothing wrong with that, compete against yourself.

To follow that line of thinking I'd shoot limited. You can then load up your mags, as you would when carrying, which would also limit the amount of mags you have to carry. Which getting back to the shoot how you carry theme would seem to make sense.

In regards to slide lock vs battery reloads, do your stage planning and figure out what makes the best sense.

Mr_White
10-01-2012, 11:22 AM
I compete with my carry gear in Limited. I use an internally-stock Gen3 G34 in a Keeper AIWB holster concealed under a t-shirt.

My preference is for Limited over Limited-10 because there is usually more and stiffer competition in Limited than in Limited-10. Also, since I carry two spare magazines in normal life and I can fill those magazines to capacity in Limited, I donít have to add any additional mag pouches and mags that I donít normally have on me.

I am kind of half-in, half-out of the game of USPSA. I play the game as a game. I make no pretense of tactics at all and I plan and walk-through and air gun stages like everyone else.

But I insist on using my carry gear from concealment to play the game with. I care about my score and try to improve it. I know that hamstringing myself by shooting Limited Minor from concealment is crazy for placing well in the game, but I find shooting this way very satisfying and challenging.

Shooting competition increases my competence and confidence. When I am all done with the match, put on my (99% identical) carry gun, and walk off the range, I should have the same technical potential (difficulties of real self-defense aside) that I had in the match. There isnít any doubt in the back of my mind about whether I can shoot my carry gear as well as my match gear.

Shooting with self-imposed disadvantages puts that much more pressure on me to shoot better and faster than other competitors. Thatís the only way I am going to do well or win. I have to shoot all As or nearly so, and canít waste any time doing it.

So, to answer your second question (in-battery or slidelock reloads), I do whichever is dictated by what I believe to be the high-flyingest stage plan. Sometimes that means I need all 18 rounds in the gun, need to not shoot any bad shots whatsoever because thereís no extra ammo for make-up shots, and shoot to slidelock and reload from slidelock in order to shoot the stage as efficiently as I can envision. More commonly I reload in-battery when moving to another position to avoid a standing reload in the middle of an array, same as other USPSA competitors typically do.

When I practice reloads, I practice slidelock reloads exclusively since they are slightly more complex and have more potential for error, and encompass in-battery reloads within the slidelock reload technique.

JodyH
10-01-2012, 01:27 PM
I ran my P30 AIWB (concealed) in Limited because I like loading my mags to full capacity.
I haven't been to an IPSC match since I traded the P30 for a P2000, but will probably shoot it in Limited as well (even though the 13 round mags will be an even bigger disadvantage).
I shoot to win, but I prefer to do it with my daily carry setup (have to add an extra mag carrier for some matches).

Alaskapopo
10-01-2012, 02:23 PM
I know there are several board members who have used AIWB carry rigs in IPSC. I'd like to try this route in order to get more practice in gunhandling and shooting skills under competition pressure. For those who have trod this path before, I have a couple questions:

1) Do you compete in Limited or Limited 10 and why?

2) Do you primarily use in-battery reloads or do you shoot to slidelock, and why?

Slidelock reloads are a higher priority skill for me, and I'd like to avoid carrying a huge number of extra mags. On the other hand, using in-battery reloads would make it easier to compare my overall time to other competitors. What say the pistol cognescenti?

In real life I would also like to avoid shooting to slide lock and tac reloads take too long. Speed loads are very viable. If you have fired rounds and are not sure how many you have left dump the mag and put in a fresh one. Intentionally shooting to slide lock is stupid in my opinion and one of the reasons I am not a big fan of IDPA. I shoot it but hate there rules regarding reloading. Also shooting A's is great but speed is just as important as accuracy. I know the saying speed is fine but accuracy is final but frankly I don't agree. If your too slow to hit the threat before he hits you your not going to have the final results you want. Speed and accuracy are an equal footing. You can not place one above the other.
pat

Odin Bravo One
10-01-2012, 02:58 PM
Agree 100% with avoiding a slide lock reload. If someone were to go back in time, and see when that stupid ass rule was popularized and ultimately included in IDPA, it was around the same time the military made the same stupid knee jerk reaction decisions with magazines and reloads. I was around for the incident that caused all of the excitement, and to this day still have no idea what hanging onto a few extra rounds in a mostly empty magazine does for me.

Disagree 100% on placing speed equal to, or higher than accuracy, if we are talking about shooting a game stage for your own personal growth as a serious defensive shooter. There are certainly lots of variables and factors in walking out of gunfights unscathed, but getting a bunch of weak peripheral hits really fast has yet to be the deciding factor for success in any of the incidents I have personal knowledge of.

Corlissimo
10-01-2012, 03:27 PM
...I insist on using my carry gear from concealment to play the game with. I care about my score and try to improve it. I know that hamstringing myself by shooting Limited Minor from concealment is crazy for placing well in the game, but I find shooting this way very satisfying and challenging.

Shooting competition increases my competence and confidence. When I am all done with the match, put on my (99% identical) carry gun, and walk off the range, I should have the same technical potential (difficulties of real self-defense aside) that I had in the match. There isnít any doubt in the back of my mind about whether I can shoot my carry gear as well as my match gear.

As I see it, you're giving yourself just about every "real life" advantage if you were to ever be involved in a gun fight. How many of your competitors would be able to truly perform in a real life gun fight as they do in competition? And, how many just pack up their "game guns" and walk out unarmed into real life? I like your logic and approach as it's exactly what I've been making arrangements to emulate and why I too was curios about using AIWB in gun games.

To ChrisG: Thanks for posting what I hadn't gotten around to asking. :cool:

Jason F
10-01-2012, 03:32 PM
...I was around for the incident that caused all of the excitement, and to this day still have no idea what hanging onto a few extra rounds in a mostly empty magazine does for me...

I guess this was a bit before my time because I have no idea what you're referring to here Sean. Are you being vague because of OPSEC issues the aforementioned incident, or is it something widely known about that I just haven't heard of?

Just curious as the shoot to slide lock and reloading rules in IDPA drive me nuts. If there's a reason they came about, I'm curious what they are and what they're a reaction to.

LOKNLOD
10-01-2012, 04:00 PM
Disagree 100% on placing speed equal to, or higher than accuracy, if we are talking about shooting a game stage for your own personal growth as a serious defensive shooter. There are certainly lots of variables and factors in walking out of gunfights unscathed, but getting a bunch of weak peripheral hits really fast has yet to be the deciding factor for success in any of the incidents I have personal knowledge of.

Though it's often discussed as balancing the speed and accuracy, I think that leads many to assume that the fulcrum must be in the center of the plank...

Mr_White
10-01-2012, 04:26 PM
Balance of speed and accuracy in USPSA: there may be some basic understanding to be had in that concept, but ultimately I think itís an illusion and itís a yoke that must be thrown off. You just need to hit with every shot very rapidly (easier said than done I know.)

Since I habitually want to shoot a USPSA stage in the high-flyingest manner I can conceive, that requires I shoot all As really fast. I think thatís a good goal to strive for. Iíve seen how my score takes a dive if I shoot more than one or two Cs per stage. I like how it appears that the highest levels of USPSA are reached only by shooting very accurately at a high rate of speed. Iím trying to avoid the common trap of pursuing a marginally good score by shooting really fast with lots of points down.

ToddG
10-01-2012, 04:39 PM
...and to this day still have no idea what hanging onto a few extra rounds in a mostly empty magazine does for me.

You're so un-tactical. You don't know what it's like to run out of ammo in the middle of a big firefight (in Call of Duty).


There are certainly lots of variables and factors in walking out of gunfights unscathed, but getting a bunch of weak peripheral hits really fast has yet to be the deciding factor for success in any of the incidents I have personal knowledge of.

Agreed. The scoring zones in IDPA and IPSC are based on making the game fast and fun. The a-zones are already generous. Thinking that rapid c- and d-zone hits are worth the expenditure of ammo goes counter to the teachings of every respectable terminal ballistics expert I've ever spoken to.

Alaskapopo
10-03-2012, 08:53 PM
Agree 100% with avoiding a slide lock reload. If someone were to go back in time, and see when that stupid ass rule was popularized and ultimately included in IDPA, it was around the same time the military made the same stupid knee jerk reaction decisions with magazines and reloads. I was around for the incident that caused all of the excitement, and to this day still have no idea what hanging onto a few extra rounds in a mostly empty magazine does for me.

Disagree 100% on placing speed equal to, or higher than accuracy, if we are talking about shooting a game stage for your own personal growth as a serious defensive shooter. There are certainly lots of variables and factors in walking out of gunfights unscathed, but getting a bunch of weak peripheral hits really fast has yet to be the deciding factor for success in any of the incidents I have personal knowledge of.

I need to articulate what I am saying better. I did not mean to imply speed should be placed at a greater value however I do think both should be placed at the same level and you need to strive to be accurate but also be accurate as fast as you possibly can. I see police qualificaitons giving far too much time to complete a drill where in real life you would never have that amount of time when facing down a threat. I agree a bunch of weak peripheral hits is not what you want but taking so long to get a shot off that you get hit by your attacker is also not what I want. Just my thoughts.
By the way my accuracy has always been a strength my speed is what I have had to work the hardest at.
Pat

Odin Bravo One
10-04-2012, 02:14 AM
Yeah.......I don't place them at the same level either.

It's ok for us to disagree.

It certainly doesn't mean I'm right. Just means we see things differently.

ToddG
10-04-2012, 08:43 AM
The "fast vs accurate" debate, at least among serious shooters, is less about philosophy and more about word choice in my experience.

Is it more important to be accurate than fast? Yes. Because if you're not accurate it doesn't matter how fast you are. Fast ineffective hits are still ineffective.

... or ...

Is it more important to be accurate than fast? No. Because if you can't make your accurate hit before the other guy makes his it doesn't matter how accurate you are. Precise shots that never get fired because you're already incapacitated (or dead) don't do you any good.

Shooting someone in the eyeball requires more precision -- and thus, all else being equal, more time -- than shooting someone in the thoracic triangle. Which one is better? The answer to that is wholly situational. The only real mistake is when someone fools himself into thinking that he'll always have the time to make that precise eyeball shot... or that he'll always have the luxury of an easy torso shot.

JeffJ
10-04-2012, 12:33 PM
Balance of speed and accuracy in USPSA: there may be some basic understanding to be had in that concept, but ultimately I think itís an illusion and itís a yoke that must be thrown off. You just need to hit with every shot very rapidly (easier said than done I know.)

Since I habitually want to shoot a USPSA stage in the high-flyingest manner I can conceive, that requires I shoot all As really fast. I think thatís a good goal to strive for. Iíve seen how my score takes a dive if I shoot more than one or two Cs per stage. I like how it appears that the highest levels of USPSA are reached only by shooting very accurately at a high rate of speed. Iím trying to avoid the common trap of pursuing a marginally good score by shooting really fast with lots of points down.

I think the speed over accuracy thing is a common misconception about USPSA - the fact is that the guys who are winning matches are shooting 92%+ of the available points, and they're doing it really fast. Cs don't help and Ds are as good as a miss when you're shooting minor and not much better in major. It's amazing how good the GM level and M level shooters are - they're really fast and really accurate and have honed a sense of how fast they can shoot an A on any given target, because for the most part - they're shooting As. Even a make up shot is going to cost you at least .20, maybe more depending on the situation and your stage plan - too many of those and it can really cost you.

Down in C class where I am (and really working to get out of) you'll occasionally see somebody who can blaze through a course shooting a lot of AC on targets and do well in C class, but that goes away with the higher classifications.

Alaskapopo
10-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Yeah.......I don't place them at the same level either.

It's ok for us to disagree.

It certainly doesn't mean I'm right. Just means we see things differently.

Yep its ok to disagree. I think Todd G's post sumed up what I was trying to get across the best.
Pat

Mr_White
10-04-2012, 05:08 PM
I think the speed over accuracy thing is a common misconception about USPSA - the fact is that the guys who are winning matches are shooting 92%+ of the available points, and they're doing it really fast. Cs don't help and Ds are as good as a miss when you're shooting minor and not much better in major. It's amazing how good the GM level and M level shooters are - they're really fast and really accurate and have honed a sense of how fast they can shoot an A on any given target, because for the most part - they're shooting As. Even a make up shot is going to cost you at least .20, maybe more depending on the situation and your stage plan - too many of those and it can really cost you.

Down in C class where I am (and really working to get out of) you'll occasionally see somebody who can blaze through a course shooting a lot of AC on targets and do well in C class, but that goes away with the higher classifications.

I agree with you. The high scorers I've seen at USPSA are straight up good shooters.

Mr_White
10-04-2012, 05:13 PM
It's also interesting to see how certain shooters place in USPSA vs. GSSF, when it's a person who competes in both, since GSSF is almost pure shooting to a certain accuracy standard, whereas USPSA involves that shooting ensconced within a lot of other tasks, especially movement.

Alaskapopo
10-04-2012, 06:17 PM
It's also interesting to see how certain shooters place in USPSA vs. GSSF, when it's a person who competes in both, since GSSF is almost pure shooting to a certain accuracy standard, whereas USPSA involves that shooting ensconced within a lot of other tasks, especially movement.

The best shooters will win regardles of format in my experience. Case in point there is a law enforcement only match up here in Alaska once a year and I have done well at this match the last 5 years or so coming in 1st or 2nd each year but one. The guys who got me on the years I got second also go back and forth with me. This last year their was much moaning and nashing of teath by some shooters who said us USPSA guys (meaning cops that shoot USPSA for fun) had an advantage and the competition was not tactical enough. So this year they went with NRA Law Enforcement rules which is a retarded rules system which basically puts all the emphasis on accuracy (C zone hit -2 seconds D zone -4 Miss -10) Well to make a long story short I got 1st and the same top shooters placed in the top 5 like always. The guys who were bitching placed about the same as they always do. The moral of the story is if you shoot well you will do good at any shooting game.
Pat

Odin Bravo One
10-04-2012, 06:33 PM
The "fast vs accurate" debate, at least among serious shooters, is less about philosophy and more about word choice in my experience.

Yeah.

And generally where my failure is epic.

Dude does not articulate well unless allowed to drop "F" Bombs like I was a B-52.

Mr_White
10-04-2012, 06:36 PM
The best shooters will win regardles of format in my experience. Case in point there is a law enforcement only match up here in Alaska once a year and I have done well at this match the last 5 years or so coming in 1st or 2nd each year but one. The guys who got me on the years I got second also go back and forth with me. This last year their was much moaning and nashing of teath by some shooters who said us USPSA guys (meaning cops that shoot USPSA for fun) had an advantage and the competition was not tactical enough. So this year they went with NRA Law Enforcement rules which is a retarded rules system which basically puts all the emphasis on accuracy (C zone hit -2 seconds D zone -4 Miss -10) Well to make a long story short I got 1st and the same top shooters placed in the top 5 like always. The guys who were bitching placed about the same as they always do. The moral of the story is if you shoot well you will do good at any shooting game.
Pat

Overall I agree with you, though I see a little disparity in my situation at the moment. Being pretty new to USPSA right now (5 matches so far over an 8 month time frame) I seem to be about B class in USPSA, though sometimes I do better than that. I need to improve in accuracy, speed, stage planning and execution, and consistency at all those things. The top three people at the GSSF matches in the area are two legit GMs in USPSA and myself - they beat me just a little bit more than I beat them in GSSF, but it's anybody's game and I beat them a little less than half the time too. I gots to get better at serial tasking!

ToddG
10-04-2012, 06:53 PM
Cannot agree with the idea that being good at one game means being good at all. NRA LE is very IPSC'y and was developed by IPSC shooters, after all.

MDS
10-04-2012, 07:29 PM
I gots to get better at serial tasking!

Wow, worthy of a Zen patriarch. :D

Alaskapopo
10-04-2012, 11:08 PM
Cannot agree with the idea that being good at one game means being good at all. NRA LE is very IPSC'y and was developed by IPSC shooters, after all.

I mean if you have good solid skills you can learn any game and play it well. There are differences but if you have the base I believe you will perform well.
Pat

nwhpfan
10-06-2012, 07:02 PM
Interesting yet appropriate thread drift. First off I shoot with Origami in USPSA. He gives next to nothing because he AIWB carries. His draw to first shot is as quick as any other. Props to him - his practice pays off.....But not all stages start with with a start, draw, shot....sometimes there is enough movement that drawing at the same time doesn't hurt in overall time...so my observation is AIWB gives very little against the competiton (overall). As for L-10 or Limited...I see it's the reloads that could really slow you down. Afterall it's sometimes that time that seperates Limited and L-10 in the first place. Say reaching under a shirt for a mag adds 1/2 a second to your relaod (I'm guessing so..)and if you reload 5 times in long course = 2.5 seconds. That is the difference between top 5 on a stage and middle pack....So if you AIWB should you Limited or L-10..Id say Limited. Again reaching to your mid back to pull a mag is really going to cost you time.

And as for fast vs. accurate, they don't compete against the other...it's how fast can you accurately hit the target. And yes you could take so much time your accurate hit doesn't matter...especially when somebody else can nail it quikcer than you.