What are the Most Durable, Reliable, Robust Lever Action Rifles?

[SwampDweller]

Currently I only own a lever action rifle in .22lr, but I'd like to get one in a centerfire caliber as a defensive weapon, particularly when staying in ban states or areas where "scary" looking rifles are not kosher for defensive use (from a jury/DA perspective). I think I'd rather have a lever action rifle than an AR modified to comply with ridiculous laws. It's my understanding that lever action rifles are not as durable or reliable as a modern semi-auto, but what is the most reliable one? Typically I like to run a thousand rounds through a firearm before I'll trust it for serious use (not all at once, but over a few range sessions with proper cleaning and lubrication), and I really start to trust one when I get to two thousand rounds without a stoppage or malfunction.

Caliber is secondary, though I already have a revolver in .357 Magnum, so it'd be nice to be able to keep it in that caliber for logistics reasons, but that's not the most important factor.

[HCM]

Currently I only own a lever action rifle in .22lr, but I'd like to get one in a centerfire caliber as a defensive weapon, particularly when staying in ban states or areas where "scary" looking rifles are not kosher for defensive use (from a jury/DA perspective). I think I'd rather have a lever action rifle than an AR modified to comply with ridiculous laws. It's my understanding that lever action rifles are not as durable or reliable as a modern semi-auto, but what is the most reliable one? Typically I like to run a thousand rounds through a firearm before I'll trust it for serious use (not all at once, but over a few range sessions with proper cleaning and lubrication), and I really start to trust one when I get to two thousand rounds without a stoppage or malfunction.

Caliber is secondary, though I already have a revolver in .357 Magnum, so it'd be nice to be able to keep it in that caliber for logistics reasons, but that's not the most important factor.

Short answer. None.

Even back in their hey day there was a reason tube fed lever guns never saw any significant military use. The Russians used some 1895 Winchesters (box magazine fed) but only because it was that or nothing.

Holding a lever gun to to modern duty gun standards is unrealistic.

If you are serious about this consider a modern shotgun with wood furniture.

[WobblyPossum]

Short answer. None.

Even back in their hey day there was a reason tube fed lever guns never saw any significant military use. The Russians used some 1895 Winchesters (box magazine fed) but only because it was that or nothing.

Holding a lever gun to to modern duty gun standards is unrealistic.

If you are serious about this consider a modern shotgun with wood furniture.

Seconded. You’re buying a 1301 right? Just take off some of the tactical looking goodies when you make it your travel gun.

[whomever]

Apologies if you have considered/discarded the idea, but one of the Ruger American bolt guns that takes AR (or AICS or Mini-30) mags might be a contender. Mine have come with really slick actions; I think I could run one pretty close to lever speed. Which may say something about my lever skills, I dunno :-). If naught else, it's a lot easier to swap box mags than feed anything with a tube magazine. If state law allows, 20 round mags aren't unwieldy, either.

If non-black-rifle semi-autos are PC enough, a wood stocked Mini-14 or one of Ruger's PC carbines might also be decent choices. I think the conventional wisdom is that they aren't as robust as a good AR, but they might well be as robust as levers.

If you have already considered/discarded these ideas, nevermind!

[HCM]

Seconded. You’re buying a 1301 right? Just take off some of the tactical looking goodies when you make it your travel gun.

The 1301 is derived from the A400 sporting guns. Or a cut down A400 …

Plus

97539

[WobblyPossum]

The 1301 is derived from the A400 sporting guns. Or a cut down A400 …

Plus

97539

Haha. For some reason I’ve started participating in these kinds of discussions by telling the OP to just use what they have already. I think the OP also has a Beretta 390 shotgun too. That would be a fine travel gun. I think DB has mentioned in a few recent podcasts he just travels with sporting shotguns now. No one looks twice at the guns and they do just fine at putting buckshot into bad guys.

[HCM]

Haha. For some reason I’ve started participating in these kinds of discussions by telling the OP to just use what they have already. I think the OP also has a Beretta 390 shotgun too. That would be a fine travel gun. I think DB has mentioned in a few recent podcasts he just travels with sporting shotguns now. No one looks twice at the guns and they do just fine at putting buckshot into bad guys.

97540

[LJP]

I’m a nobody, but I view the lever gun much as I view the revolver. What it’s good at, it excels at. I am a fan of Marlin lever guns, but I would definitely stick with one of the big three. Marlin, Winchester, or Henry. You will need to commit to a certain amount of maintenance and familiarization training, but it is a viable concept. Hopefully Lee Weems jlw will chime in here. I have a brace of lever guns (Marlin 336Y and Marlin DARK .45-70) that I wouldn’t feel undergunned with in a home defense scenario.

[jlw]

None of them are going to hold up to levels anywhere approaching what even lower end ARs do. The weakness of the Marlin design is wear in the carrier. The weakness in the Winchester design is the extractor. The later production Marlins had pretty bad metallurgy. I have only seen one of the Ruger produced Marlins. It was mighty slick, but we'll see... I have only had one of the Henrys come through class as we require a side loading gate. It functioned but had a horrid trigger.

My preferences is for older Marlins, but I understand I'll have to replace the carrier at some point.

For a manual action rifle, the Ruger American Ranch rifles are hard to beat.

[WobblyPossum]

Does anyone have experience with the CZ 600 Trail? It’s got a lot of likable features and the specs look good. It probably looks a little more “tactical” than the OP is going for.

[Navin Johnson]

When does the bolt gun thread start?

[SwampDweller]

None of them are going to hold up to levels anywhere approaching what even lower end ARs do. The weakness of the Marlin design is wear in the carrier. The weakness in the Winchester design is the extractor. The later production Marlins had pretty bad metallurgy. I have only seen one of the Ruger produced Marlins. It was mighty slick, but we'll see... I have only had one of the Henrys come through class as we require a side loading gate. It functioned but had a horrid trigger.

My preferences is for older Marlins, but I understand I'll have to replace the carrier at some point.

For a manual action rifle, the Ruger American Ranch rifles are hard to beat.

Thanks jlw, I was hoping you'd chime in. I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts/videos lately, part of what got me thinking about this. What are the weaknesses of the Marlin's carrier? Would replacement carriers require fitting?

I've always liked the Ruger American Ranch, especially the idea of one in 7.62x39 as I have well over 10k rounds stored away of that stuff. I always figured a lever action would be more quick and easy to run in a stressful situation.

[fatdog]

To your original question. Since you have .357 ammo I would pick the Winchester 1892, I have one of the Rossi versions in stainless and once I replaced a few parts (https://store.stevesgunz.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_9), safety plug, follower, ejector spring, it has been flawless with both .357 and .38 special ammo. I have easily 3K rounds down range with it at this point.

[jlw]

Thanks jlw, I was hoping you'd chime in. I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts/videos lately, part of what got me thinking about this. What are the weaknesses of the Marlin's carrier? Would replacement carriers require fitting?

I've always liked the Ruger American Ranch, especially the idea of one in 7.62x39 as I have well over 10k rounds stored away of that stuff. I always figured a lever action would be more quick and easy to run in a stressful situation.

Do a search for “Marlin jam” on Google and YouTube. The lever wears a groove in the carrier and it will eventually lead to two rounds jumping out of the tube and locking up the gun. Th carrier should be a drop in part.

[jlw]

To your original question. Since you have .357 ammo I would pick the Winchester 1892, I have one of the Rossi versions in stainless and once I replaced a few parts (https://store.stevesgunz.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_9), safety plug, follower, ejector spring, it has been flawless with both .357 and .38 special ammo. I have easily 3K rounds down range with it at this point.

Pistol caliber leverguns are MUCH more finicky than rifle calibers.

[SwampDweller]

Pistol caliber leverguns are MUCH more finicky than rifle calibers.

If rifle caliber leverguns are less finicky than pistol caliber ones, what would you say is the most long term trouble-free rifle caliber levergun?

I mean, the more I think about it, maybe a 590A1 with slugs might be a better answer, but I still like the idea of a fast-action true rifle. Perhaps the Ruger American would be a better answer for that, it sounds like?

[jlw]

To me, levergun means .30-30 unless specifically stated otherwise. I prefer the 336 but that’s just because it’s what I had growing up.

I really like the Ruger American Ranch.

[HCM]

Thanks jlw, I was hoping you'd chime in. I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts/videos lately, part of what got me thinking about this. What are the weaknesses of the Marlin's carrier? Would replacement carriers require fitting?

I've always liked the Ruger American Ranch, especially the idea of one in 7.62x39 as I have well over 10k rounds stored away of that stuff. I always figured a lever action would be more quick and easy to run in a stressful situation.

My favorite gun for the niche occupied by the 30-30lever gun is my CZ 527 in 7.62x39. With those out of production, and not yet having direct experience with the CZ 600 series, I’d second the Ruger American Ranch. .300 Blk and 5.56 are viable too. Any of those would be preferable to a pistol caliber long gun.

As for quick and easy to run, I sounds like you’ve never seen someone with the knowledge and ability to run a bolt gun properly. Neither a bolt or a lever is going to match a semi auto but a bolt gun with detachable mags (or to a lesser degree stripper clips) beats a tube mag.

[JonInWA]

I'll echo the vote for the CZ 527 in 7.62x39. Best, Jon

[jlw]

I have one Social Levergun class scheduled for 2023, and it will likely be the only one scheduled for 2023. Right now, it currently has one registration. The levergun stuff generates a lot of conversation, but the class just doesn't sell.

Social Levergun, March 5, 2023. Yadkinville, NC. (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/social-levergun-tickets-349774483897?aff=ebdsoporgprofile)

Here's a podcast on the topic:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTYInrZdCFY&t=466s

[Caballoflaco]

My favorite gun for the niche occupied by the 30-30lever gun is my CZ 527 in 7.62x39. With those out of production, and not yet having direct experience with the CZ 600 series, I’d second the Ruger American Ranch. .300 Blk and 5.56 are viable too. Any of those would be preferable to a pistol caliber long gun.

As for quick and easy to run, I sounds like you’ve never seen someone with the knowledge and ability to run a bolt gun properly. Neither a bolt or a lever is going to match a semi auto but a bolt gun with detachable mags (or to a lesser degree stripper clips) beats a tube mag.

A couple of examples off the top of my head.


https://youtu.be/4EaiOLoCpPE

a bit more modern rifle: tikka t3x Arctic fast forward as needed


https://youtu.be/KoF83f30mIk

[Dov]

Thanks jlw, I was hoping you'd chime in. I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts/videos lately, part of what got me thinking about this. What are the weaknesses of the Marlin's carrier? Would replacement carriers require fitting?

I've always liked the Ruger American Ranch, especially the idea of one in 7.62x39 as I have well over 10k rounds stored away of that stuff. I always figured a lever action would be more quick and easy to run in a stressful situation.

Couple threads you might find of interest that discuss short bolt actions like the Ruger and CZ 527

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42137-Question-for-GJM-amp-others-CZ-527

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51246-NH-Shooter-style-Rifle

[Dov]

Pistol caliber leverguns are MUCH more finicky than rifle calibers.

I've been looking more and more at the Uberti 1873 Trapper in 357 myself, and I really like gf's Marlin 336Y.

I've noted that the 336Y (Youth model with it's shorter barrel & LOP) is comparable OAL to Remington 870 with 14" barrel and normal LOP.

[Duelist]

I’ve had a 336 in .30-30, and now have a Marlin 1894 in .357. I enjoy the 1894 much more than the 336, it’s just more fun to pack around and shoot. Lighter, handier for what I use it for - which really isn’t much. I get it out to plink with a few times a year, and if I decide to pack a rifle long gun when hiking and I’m not actually intending to hunt anything, I’ll pack it along. Sometimes when traveling, it’s the long gun I take along.

I hunt deer with bolt actions, small game with .22s and shotguns, do whatever rifle defense practice I do with an AR, and mostly shoot .22LR or 5.56 when I’m being bothered to actually practice shooting a rifle most of the time.

But the 1894 is cool little rifle. If I am traveling with a .38 or .357 revolver (carrying, a trip that doesn’t involve recreational shooting), bringing the 1894 doesn’t mean adding a different supply of ammunition: I can just carry one box of spare ammo and I’m covered for both guns. And it’s just a fun gun to shoot - even people who don’t really like or have experience shooting rifles always get a kick out of shooting it. It’s a cowboy gun and doesn’t kick (even with .357 loads) and isn’t excessively loud (except with some .357 loads).

[jlw]

I've noted that the 336Y (Youth model with it's shorter barrel & LOP) is comparable OAL to Remington 870 with 14" barrel and normal LOP.

Mine is so hot after five rounds that it is uncomfortable to hold. That's not going to show up in a lifetime of deer/hog hunting, but it will in social use practice/training.

[Dov]

Mine is so hot after five rounds that it is uncomfortable to hold. That's not going to show up in a lifetime of deer/hog hunting, but it will in social use practice/training.

Yeah that matches my notes about downsides of lever, rifle calibers get about one gun full of rapid fire before some type of issue like zero shift etc. Pistol caliber guns closer to 2 gun full strings of rapid fire before problems.

If your going to need sustained fire and can't use military pattern semi auto, then AFAIK a military bolt action is probably much better bet or some non military bolt guns.

[SwampDweller]

I have one Social Levergun class scheduled for 2023, and it will likely be the only one scheduled for 2023. Right now, it currently has one registration. The levergun stuff generates a lot of conversation, but the class just doesn't sell.

Social Levergun, March 5, 2023. Yadkinville, NC. (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/social-levergun-tickets-349774483897?aff=ebdsoporgprofile)

Here's a podcast on the topic:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTYInrZdCFY&t=466s

Thanks, I'm going to listen/watch this right now (and tonight/tomorrow since turkey day is calling me to bed soon). I always have enjoyed listening to you. I'm from Alexandria, Louisiana and went to college at Louisiana Tech in Ruston, I visited the same Bonnie & Clyde spot you did. Do you have any videos/podcasts on bolt rifles like the Ruger American? If it's in the link you provided I apologize.

[jlw]

Thanks, I'm going to listen/watch this right now (and tonight/tomorrow since turkey day is calling me to bed soon). I always have enjoyed listening to you. I'm from Alexandria, Louisiana and went to college at Louisiana Tech in Ruston, I visited the same Bonnie & Clyde spot you did. Do you have any videos/podcasts on bolt rifles like the Ruger American? If it's in the link you provided I apologize.

Ruston is my stopover place if traveling I-20.

There is an audio version of that episode available on their feed as well.

I mention the American Ranch in the episode, but I haven't done anything specific on it. There is a thread here titled "Down the Practical Hole" that you might find relevant.

[SwampDweller]

Ruston is my stopover place if traveling I-20.

There is an audio version of that episode available on their feed as well.

I mention the American Ranch in the episode, but I haven't done anything specific on it. There is a thread here titled "Down the Practical Hole" that you might find relevant.

You may have already been there, but if you go to Ponchatoulas it's about as good as the food gets on this side of I-20 (though I might be biased). I'm listening to the vid you linked and I'll find the thread you referenced. Thank ya sir!

[SwampDweller]

You may have already been there, but if you go to Ponchatoulas it's about as good as the food gets on this side of I-20 (though I might be biased). I'm listening to the vid you linked and I'll find the thread you referenced. Thank ya sir!

Also kinda funny that we share the same first name. I know you don't find enough potential students for more lever classes, but I'd be willing to pay to take a class for you in whatever manually-operated class you might teach. I'm finding the Ruger American in 7.62x39 particularly attractive as I have 6k+ rounds available in that caliber.

[Dov]

Also kinda funny that we share the same first name. I know you don't find enough potential students for more lever classes, but I'd be willing to pay to take a class for you in whatever manually-operated class you might teach. I'm finding the Ruger American in 7.62x39 particularly attractive as I have 6k+ rounds available in that caliber.

I think someone doing a VLOG, podcast, or written article about that would be well received by small group of shooters including myself.

I've seen only couple articles like that over the years, Ashley Emerson (sp?) IIRC years ago wrote about taking a Thunder Ranch Urban Rifle class with a Marlin levergun, can't remember if he used a 30-30 or 357 mag.

[RevolverRob]

I have one Social Levergun class scheduled for 2023, and it will likely be the only one scheduled for 2023. Right now, it currently has one registration. The levergun stuff generates a lot of conversation, but the class just doesn't sell.

Social Levergun, March 5, 2023. Yadkinville, NC. (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/social-levergun-tickets-349774483897?aff=ebdsoporgprofile)

Here's a podcast on the topic:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTYInrZdCFY&t=466s

Man, I really kind of want to do this. But I'd need to get the barrel uncanted on my 336W first. Or just mount an optic (it shoots straight, but the front sight ain't straight, because...Marlin). Flamingo


Mine is so hot after five rounds that it is uncomfortable to hold. That's not going to show up in a lifetime of deer/hog hunting, but it will in social use practice/training.

This^^^^ Rapid fire with a 336 = Hot Ass Gun. Ten rounds of .30-30 the gun is almost as hot as an M60 after ripping off a 200 round belt. It's not a gun you can shoot long without gloves. I don't guess that matters too much in a fight with it. Because realistically, trying to reload an empty lever gun is about like trying to reload a muzzle loader. Okay, that's a bit hyperbolic, but it's a real pain in the ass.

FWIW SwampDweller my travel gun is this, a H&R Topper 48 in 12-gauge with the barrel chopped back to 19". It breaks down easily and stows inside a small duffel bag. The Topper is an ejector gun, making reloading much easier overall. I also appreciate the ease of administrative handling of the gun, by simply breaking the action open to remove the chambered round. Realistically, hitting someone at hotel room distances with a load of 00 buck probably won't require a follow up shot. I'd run a double (SxS or O/U), except I can't find a good double shotgun that has ejectors (and doesn't cost a small fortune). In my opinion, running a break action gun, ejectors are practically required and they make life much, much easier.

97575

[gato naranja]

I focused on .44 Magnum and then .357 Magnum leverguns for a number of years. All the different designs have their strong and weak points, but they will all break somewhere eventually.

(I think that a lot of semiautos are about equally as delicate, but that is another story.)

The Browning-designed ones that I owned tended to run more reliably after they were debugged, the Hepburn-designed (Marlin) ones were easier to clean and maintain, and the one Henry that I had was not an improvement on the others in either respect. I ended up going 100% Marlin only because the 92/clones were such a PITA to detail strip whenever the things got wet or really dirty.

Sadly, the CZ527 is in the rear view mirror, but if I were looking for a manually operated, rugged, do-all rifle using a lower-recoil "deer rifle" load, the Ruger Scout in .350 Legend checks a lot of boxes, though I would not accuse any Ruger Scout of being particularly handy. If I were not recoil sensitive in my sere and yellow, the Tikka T3x Arctic is appealing.

[Lost River]

Currently I only own a lever action rifle in .22lr, but I'd like to get one in a centerfire caliber as a defensive weapon, particularly when staying in ban states or areas where "scary" looking rifles are not kosher for defensive use (from a jury/DA perspective). I think I'd rather have a lever action rifle than an AR modified to comply with ridiculous laws. It's my understanding that lever action rifles are not as durable or reliable as a modern semi-auto, but what is the most reliable one? Typically I like to run a thousand rounds through a firearm before I'll trust it for serious use (not all at once, but over a few range sessions with proper cleaning and lubrication), and I really start to trust one when I get to two thousand rounds without a stoppage or malfunction.

Caliber is secondary, though I already have a revolver in .357 Magnum, so it'd be nice to be able to keep it in that caliber for logistics reasons, but that's not the most important factor.

As much as I like lever actions, I would choose a properly set up bolt action over a lever gun every time.

While you can certainly build a very nice custom R700 into an extremely reliable and accurate rifle, there are much less expensive routes to achieve the same goal, so I would skip the R700.

A lot of people would likely say, just grab a Ruger Scout rifle. While the scout rifle has pretty much everything you need, I found them to be rather clunky and I have yet to find one with a smooth action, as compared to a Tikka. I know the T3 drum get banged on a lot here, but there is a very good reason it does.


Here is a link to the T3 Arctic, which is essentially just a 20" CTR .308 in a laminate stock, with some upgrades.

https://www.recoilweb.com/tikka-t3x-arctic-131608.html





With that in mind, for your defense/general purpose needs, I would take a T3 .308, and either leave it at 20"s or cut it back to your desired length of 16.5" or 18""s, whatever you feel works for you. Then thread the end for a brake or suppressor. You can use CTR stocks for CTR 10 or 5 round mags, or use a standard T3 and get a conversion for AI mags.

Top the rifle with an LPVO of choice.

Here is another video of a gent who was a long time Canadian Ranger that owns a CTR .308, lives in Canada and thinks/speaks very highly of the rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwVycMfMFUg

And an article:


https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/gun-review-canadian-rangers-tikka-t3x-arctic-rifle/

97582

With a T3 and a proper LPVO, not too many people are going to give it a second look, as it is simply a practical hunting rifle as far as anyone is concerned. Grab yourself 3-4 mags and call yourself done.

Personally I have found that I actually like the factory single stack 5 round mags and tend to use them frequently. They are slim and fit in pockets on clothing as well as pack pockets quite easily. They load easy, feed easy and are quite durable, much like a Glock magazine, plus they are not overly expensive.


A good general purpose bolt action will never match the speed of a semi auto. Not even close. But you can certainly do good work with one and if semi autos are out of the question and you are traveling, and some of those places require that the firearms remain unloaded, having a magazine fed bolt action that you can simply slap a mag home and rack the bolt is fairly practical. Plus you have a very wide variety of ammo to choose from so you can select ammo to your environment and needs.


:)

[RevolverRob]

Ditto on a bolt action. It's why I'm working on a .45 Auto Mauser-based bolt gun (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?54981-Winter-Project-A-Mauser-based-1911-magfed-Bolt-Action).

[okie john]

Agree on the bolt gun for all the reasons provided.

I'd look at various compact and/or youth models in 308. Ammo is available everywhere. They typically have a 20" barrel, which is about as short as you want to go in any CF rifle cartridge. The shorter LOP accommodates women and kids while remaining workable for a grown man, plus the combination of shorter barrel/LOP generally balances very well.

I prefer fixed over detachable magazine on bolt guns; the the ACIS pattern is the exception to that rule.

Add a sling and a 1-4 variable or RDS and you're done.


Okie John

[Dov]

Bolt vs Lever.

I don't know if its a personal preference kind of issue or something else, but I know I didn't care for my Steyr Scout for anything where rate of fire mattered at all.

A BLR, Marlin 336 (as long as it wasn't a rough action in need of smoothing) or Henry lever was comparable or faster than a pump shotgun for me, the levers were all much faster than bolt guns for me. A military Mauser like my 6.5 Swede was much better for rate of aimed fire for me than the Steyr Scout ever was even though I spent lot more dry and live fire time with the Steyr. But I'd still pick a lever over the Swede for most things.

For me a decent lever, maybe a fit issue for me, like 1886, BLR, or Henry (or I assume 1873 though haven't had chance to try one yet) gave significant performance improvement over the Steyr Scout for anything involving more than 1 shot that it was like performance jump with pocket handguns going from J frame to Glock 26.

The Steyr Scout was certainly more accurate than any lever I have shot, and faster to reload than the levers except for BLR, but at least for me it was never a fast or even smooth action to work no matter how much effort I put into it. That is why after a decade or so of trying to make it work for General Purpose for me rifle I sold it to a buddy that really wanted it.

I would have slung the Scout and used J frame or G26 for anything inside 25 yards if speed and rate of fire mattered, with any of the levers would probably feel better with the lever down to 5 or 6 yards or maybe even closer depending what threat was. While a N frame, 1911, or Glock probably would have had me slinging the Scout at more like 50 yards.

I've handled CZ 527 several times but haven't shot one or the Ruger that's in similar class so IDK where they would fall for me personally.

YMMV

I've found that I prefer levers for what Cooper called General Purpose, or if I have to a semi auto. For things where I feel lever or semi auto is lacking I prefer Ruger No 1 or similar.

Maybe its just some type of bias :confused:

[gato naranja]

A military Mauser like my 6.5 Swede was much better for rate of aimed fire for me than the Steyr Scout ever was even though I spent lot more dry and live fire time with the Steyr. But I'd still pick a lever over the Swede for most things.

The 6.5 Swedish and the 7x57 Mauser were great but underrated cartridges for years until they were "rediscovered," only to be buried again by shiny new substitutes that weren't really any better (and were in many cases less forgiving).

One of my shooting buddies who is a very practical and logical man swears by his 7x57 Spanish 93 that had been "sporterized" by an importer in the '60's. It is a bit slow compared to a lever, but that is offset by its absolute reliability and surprisingly good accuracy. Easy to operate, easy to clean, moderate recoil (it is a bit short and lets you know it has gone off) and will handle everything from empty pop cans up to fairly dangerous critters... it is a great utility gun. It also looks like a proverbial bumpkin's "ol' huntin' rifle," which is just how he likes it.

Were it a 9.5 Swedish Mauser, I'd still be trying to talk him out of it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Short answer. None.

Even back in their hey day there was a reason tube fed lever guns never saw any significant military use. The Russians used some 1895 Winchesters (box magazine fed) but only because it was that or nothing.

Holding a lever gun to to modern duty gun standards is unrealistic.

If you are serious about this consider a modern shotgun with wood furniture.

The Turks had some success for a short period of time:

https://www.militaryrifles.com/turkishwinchester

I've seen lever guns and a bolt gun run at the IDPA matches that HCM has gone to. The lever guy wasn't practiced and screwed up the stroke quite a bit. The bolt guy had it together and took at his targets with head shots. Still more of a fun run than serious. If semis are banned and not grandfathered, I'll worry.

[HCM]

The Turks had some success for a short period of time:

https://www.militaryrifles.com/turkishwinchester

I've seen lever guns and a bolt gun run at the IDPA matches that HCM has gone to. The lever guy wasn't practiced and screwed up the stroke quite a bit. The bolt guy had it together and took at his targets with head shots. Still more of a fun run than serious. If semis are banned and not grandfathered, I'll worry.

I’d have to question how successful they were given Turks abandoned them for Mausers and no one else followed suite.

[HCM]

Bolt vs Lever.

I don't know if its a personal preference kind of issue or something else, but I know I didn't care for my Steyr Scout for anything where rate of fire mattered at all.

A BLR, Marlin 336 (as long as it wasn't a rough action in need of smoothing) or Henry lever was comparable or faster than a pump shotgun for me, the levers were all much faster than bolt guns for me. A military Mauser like my 6.5 Swede was much better for rate of aimed fire for me than the Steyr Scout ever was even though I spent lot more dry and live fire time with the Steyr. But I'd still pick a lever over the Swede for most things.

For me a decent lever, maybe a fit issue for me, like 1886, BLR, or Henry (or I assume 1873 though haven't had chance to try one yet) gave significant performance improvement over the Steyr Scout for anything involving more than 1 shot that it was like performance jump with pocket handguns going from J frame to Glock 26.

The Steyr Scout was certainly more accurate than any lever I have shot, and faster to reload than the levers except for BLR, but at least for me it was never a fast or even smooth action to work no matter how much effort I put into it. That is why after a decade or so of trying to make it work for General Purpose for me rifle I sold it to a buddy that really wanted it.

I would have slung the Scout and used J frame or G26 for anything inside 25 yards if speed and rate of fire mattered, with any of the levers would probably feel better with the lever down to 5 or 6 yards or maybe even closer depending what threat was. While a N frame, 1911, or Glock probably would have had me slinging the Scout at more like 50 yards.

I've handled CZ 527 several times but haven't shot one or the Ruger that's in similar class so IDK where they would fall for me personally.

YMMV

I've found that I prefer levers for what Cooper called General Purpose, or if I have to a semi auto. For things where I feel lever or semi auto is lacking I prefer Ruger No 1 or similar.

Maybe its just some type of bias :confused:

As the owner of both a Steyr scout and another Steyr bolt gun the SBS action used in the Steyr Scout doesn’t lend it self to rapid fire due to the bolt throw. Hence my preference for the 527 for the purposes the OP mentioned.

Speaking of confusion, you didn’t start it but this somehow drifted into a Scout / general purpose bolt gun fest which is not what the OP asked about.

The OP asked about pistol cal lever gun as AR/PCC substitutes. As others have mentioned pistol caliber lever guns are fun but reliability challenged. That lead to the recommendation of a 30-30 lever gun. The bolt gun equivalent of a 30-30 lever carbine is a “mini” action bolt gun in an intermediate caliber such as 7.62x39, .300 BO or 5.56.

With the CZ 527 discontinued, that leaves the Ruger American Ranch, the Howa mini Mausers and the new CZ 600 series. These smaller, lighter guns in intermediate calibers are not the “one gun for everything” solution but they are better at close quarters / realistic defense ranges under time pressure than full size “one gun to rule them all” solutions. Just like with semi autos, 308 (and up) are not “intermediate” calibers.

[JonInWA]

Inevitable thread drift....I'm disappointed that 1) CZ discontinued the CZ 527, and 2) never developed and marketed an OEM 10 round magazine for it (and, somewhat surprisingly, to the best of my knowledge, no one ever did, other than some gunsmith specials involving welding and reconfiguring and custom springing 2 of the CZ 5 rounders). (And yeah, I'm aware that the CZ 600 Trail is available in 7.62 x 39 with 10 round magazines)

On mine, I painted the front sight fluorescent orange, and a friend of mine quickly beat my good idea fairy to death when I mentioned that I was considering getting the CZ Weaver rail attachment and throwing a contemporary rifle RDS on it. Not that it's a bad idea, the the CZ has decent irons, and sticking with irons keeps things simple and Murphy at bay...

I'll get back in my lane now...

Best, Jon

[gato naranja]

To add to my earlier thoughts about PCC leverguns, I will add that given the same action the .44's seemed less prone to having a round hang up during the closing of the lever than the .357's. Others may have found the opposite, but that has been my experience.

[Ed L]

Growing up in the late 1970s in New York State, I noticed a number of people who owned lever action guns for home defense and general use. These people would typically buy them at the firearms counter at a local sporting goods store. These firearms were typically not fired very much--as in 10 or 20 rounds shortly after buying, and then 10-20 rounds once in a while. These guns served as hunting firearms, "just-in-case" guns, and "just-to-have-a-gun" guns. The concept of firing a large amount of rounds in practice--or even a moderate amount of rounds--with a centerfire rifle did not seem to exist at that time in my limited exposure. Bring the gun to the range, fire 10 or 20 rounds through it (or whatever was necessary to sight in the scope if the gun had an optic) and the gun was considered good to go.

My family was included in this group. We bought a Marlin 336C in .35 Remington in 1976, I believe. We bought it in .35 Remington, a caliber I wasn't familiar with at the time, at the advice of a family friend who was an NYPD cop. That gun got traded away decades ago. In the last few years I decided it would be nice to have one, and I came across a 1970s vintage Marlin 336C in 30-30 which I bought for around $900. It came with a period correct recoil pad.

97727

[rob_s]

Short answer. None.

Even back in their hey day there was a reason tube fed lever guns never saw any significant military use. The Russians used some 1895 Winchesters (box magazine fed) but only because it was that or nothing.

Holding a lever gun to to modern duty gun standards is unrealistic.

If you are serious about this consider a modern shotgun with wood furniture.

This is correct.

Most of the “society for historic anachronism” types of guns are (a) not built to modern standards because they don’t have to be and (b) really were never as good as the proponents would have you believe.

So you buy today and you’re getting a lesser copy of something that wasn’t that great to begin with.

[jh9]

I noticed a number of people who owned lever action guns for home defense and general use. These people would typically buy them at the firearms counter at a local sporting goods store. These firearms were typically not fired very much--as in 10 or 20 rounds shortly after buying, and then 10-20 rounds once in a while. These guns served as hunting firearms, "just-in-case" guns, and "just-to-have-a-gun" guns. The concept of firing a large amount of rounds in practice--or even a moderate amount of rounds--with a centerfire rifle did not seem to exist at that time in my limited exposure. Bring the gun to the range, fire 10 or 20 rounds through it (or whatever was necessary to sight in the scope if the gun had an optic) and the gun was considered good to go.


Yeah. "Let's shoot the piss out of it" is more common now than it was back then but I think it's still the vast minority that will ever have the odometer roll over to four digits in any centerfire gun they own. Going back to the leatherslap and proto-IPSC days the attitude was far less common... but even today I don't think you'd find more than a relative handful.

Brings to mind a range trip a couple months ago where some dude was "zeroing" his Savage Axis or similar, modern commercial 'sporting/hunting rifle'-- by pounding box after box through it like Attila was at the gates. Eventually the gun gave up. I didn't ask for specifics, but he gathered a crowd as people were trying to figure out what happened. Dude was confused. Like he expected some pencil barreled hunting rifle to stand up to a firing schedule that would have been more appropriate for a WWI-issue bolt gun. (Probably would have been more confused had he let the barrel cool down and found out his "zero" was in another zip code but w/e...)

I think the attitude of shoot it fast / a lot / often has permeated the larger gun culture but people doing it still seem to be a tiny fraction. Anecdata... But I've seen a lot more of what you describe than the above (or your average IDPA/USPSA/SCSA competitor). Especially in the years where ammo is expensive.

[gato naranja]

Yeah. "Let's shoot the piss out of it" is more common now than it was back then but I think it's still the vast minority that will ever have the odometer roll over to four digits in any centerfire gun they own. Going back to the leatherslap and proto-IPSC days the attitude was far less common... but even today I don't think you'd find more than a relative handful.

"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there." My past is certainly a case in point.

There were some people who competed in formal matches but they were few and far between; they were also generally reloaders, but not one of these locals burned through ammunition like one sees being done today. The serious trap/skeet guys probably took the prize for the number of rounds fired in a year, and they tended to be the busiest reloaders of all. The more typical general-interest "gun cranks" of that time/place reloaded not because they shot high volumes of ammo, but because they were frugal and/or were chasing some holy grail load.

And "frugal" was baked right into most of the grownups. Blowing through a box of anything other than .22 rimfire in one session was considered extravagant by those guys, and I had my character impugned more than once for "wasting" ammunition if I shot away a whole box of 50 during a ramble down the tracks and up the hill.

Being specific about lever action rifles, the only leverguns I remember doing much more than annually traveling out of state for antlered game... or being occasionally "sighted in" in some pasture... or collecting dust... were Marlin 39's and the occasional 1897. I doubt if many of the centerfire leverguns I saw in the gun racks of those days ever had a thousand rounds through them.

[SwampDweller]

If one had to choose between a lever action rifle or a handy bolt action like the Ruger American in 5.56 or 7.62x39 for all uses between home defense and out to 50 yards or so, what would seem to be the preferred option?

[4RNR]

The Ruger is probably faster to reload but I would go with a lever.

I don't think they're all that bad for what I'd use it for if I were in your shoes. It's a just in case for certain states. Unless you plan to use it in trench warfare, like the Russians, or stopping human wave attacks.

I consider them in the same category as small 380s or J frames. May not hold up to crazy high round counts but that doesn't mean they're bad.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[whomever]

If one had to choose between a lever action rifle or a handy bolt action like the Ruger American in 5.56 or 7.62x39 for all uses between home defense and out to 50 yards or so, what would seem to be the preferred option?

At one time or another I have owned Marlins in 44, .30-30, and 45/70, and Ruger Americans in 300BLK and 5.56. (as an aside, I'm talking about the Rugers that use AR mags. I wasn't all that happy with the one that had the flush fit mag ... that was pretty cheesy)

My answer: it depends :-). In no particular order:

1)I think the Rugers are generally cheaper
2)But you need to put on a scope or dot (or maybe someone makes irons for the Ruger?)
3)As mentioned, the pistol caliber levers don't always run reliably. If you get one that does, nevermind.
4)In bear country, the lever calibers have some advantages. A Ruger in 7.62x39 might work too, but 5.56/300BLK are a bit small for my taste. If bears aren't an issue, nevermind. Conversely, the bigger calibers are a bit much for home defense; I'd rather have 5.56 (or .357, if you get one that runs well). If you reload, straight wall cartridges are nice.
5)Capacity: AR mags vs. 4 to 10 rounds, (aside: AR mags are a lot cheaper than mini-30 mags)
6)If you're rambling around in the field, nothing carries in the hand like a lever.
7)I know you said close range, but FWIW my 5.56 Ruger will reliably print maybe 1.25 inch 10 shot groups (handloads, 1-4 LPVO, off the bench). That makes for a pretty good effective range. The levers have all been iron sights, and I never shot them for groups, so I dunno how far they would be useful.
8)2 out of 3 of the Ruger Americans I have had were slick as could be right out of the box - the bolt OD might as well have been ground. One had turn marks you could see. It slicked up pretty well with the time honored trick of working the action a zillion times, but it's nice if you can see it as opposed to ordering it. But with the full diameter bolt and 3 lugs, all of them are way faster than any other bolt I've tried, although I sure haven't tried them all :-)

Overall, I think it's like the eternal 'which is better - revolver or semi handgun?' question. There isn't one obvious right answer for all cases. If you can find them in a store, try them and see if one or the other clicks for you.

[RevolverRob]

If one had to choose between a lever action rifle or a handy bolt action like the Ruger American in 5.56 or 7.62x39 for all uses between home defense and out to 50 yards or so, what would seem to be the preferred option?

12-gauge shotgun with slugs.

[rob_s]

If one had to choose between a lever action rifle or a handy bolt action like the Ruger American in 5.56 or 7.62x39 for all uses between home defense and out to 50 yards or so, what would seem to be the preferred option?

I would choose the bolt gun.

ETA:
But I’d rather have a shotgun than either.

[gato naranja]

If one had to choose between a lever action rifle or a handy bolt action like the Ruger American in 5.56 or 7.62x39 for all uses between home defense and out to 50 yards or so, what would seem to be the preferred option?


12-gauge shotgun with slugs.

A compromise which was reached reluctantly, the answer for me from zero to 50 eventually became this, even though recoil becomes more problematic as I age:

97764

One thing has not changed for me in over 50 years... when it comes to speed and "fluidity" WRT operation of a manually operated repeating long gun: pump > lever > bolt. I may not like it, but there it is.

YMMV

[okie john]

At one time or another I have owned Marlins in 44, .30-30, and 45/70, and Ruger Americans in 300BLK and 5.56. (as an aside, I'm talking about the Rugers that use AR mags. I wasn't all that happy with the one that had the flush fit mag ... that was pretty cheesy)

I briefly owned a Ruger American Standard in 308 with a flush-fit mag. It was accurate and balanced well but nothing about the mag design or execution inspired confidence. The Predator seems like a better setup in that regard.

It's also nearly impossible to load single rounds through the ejection port, which is kind of a deal breaker across the board.


Okie John

[JTMcC]

OP the most durable and reliable lever gun doesn't come out of a factory box, but there are a lot of solid gunsmiths that will turn the factory gun into what you're looking for, thanks mainly to the SASS guys/gals.
If you really want to tote around a solid lever gun it'll make a trip to see one of those guys, all the factory models have their quirks & weakness'.
In pistol chamberings like the .357 you mentioned "most" folks will favor a '73 variant or a '94 Marlin (as a starting point) but several other models will work.

If you talk to a lever gunsmith and let them know you're not shooting low level ammo (SASS) but want some horsepower, you'll end up with what you want.

Bolt guns, cycled quickly and at high round counts also show their quirks. (Except the Lee-Enfield, it has no hi-speed quirks :)). There are several bolt guns that are solidly reliable and with good hunting reputations that really annoy me when they are cycled fast and often. The same situation as the lever guns.

[Dov]

12-gauge shotgun with slugs.

Something you or others might find of interest that I put in my notes years ago, think comment Mas made in writing somewhere about 20 gauge slugs being somewhat equivalent to 454 Casull or pair of 44 magnums though that might just be my foggy memory, got me thinking about 454 vs 20 gauge slug comparison.

Anyway I looked at 20 gauge Sabot loads since they tend to use bullets one could use for 454 (IIRC this was back when you could get a 260 Nosler Partition for 454 or 20 gauge Sabot) and 20 Gauge Sabot is basically same ballistics as 454 from levergun or similar barrel length.

So GJM liking semi auto 20 gauge with Brenneke's makes a lot of sense to me.

Or in other words that is me saying in a convulted way a 20 gauge with slugs is comparable to 454 levergun, just in pump or better in a semiauto. :D

[RevolverRob]

Something you or others might find of interest that I put in my notes years ago, think comment Mas made in writing somewhere about 20 gauge slugs being somewhat equivalent to 454 Casull or pair of 44 magnums though that might just be my foggy memory, got me thinking about 454 vs 20 gauge slug comparison.

Anyway I looked at 20 gauge Sabot loads since they tend to use bullets one could use for 454 (IIRC this was back when you could get a 260 Nosler Partition for 454 or 20 gauge Sabot) and 20 Gauge Sabot is basically same ballistics as 454 from levergun or similar barrel length.

So GJM liking semi auto 20 gauge with Brenneke's makes a lot of sense to me.

Or in other words that is me saying in a convulted way a 20 gauge with slugs is comparable to 454 levergun, just in pump or better in a semiauto. :D

20 Brennekke's have better sectional density than 12s, which is why folks tend to prefer them for bear defense. But the only 20-gauge slug that has great accuracy at 50y is the Federal Tru-Ball variant which only comes in a 1600fps form. From experience, those things have some oomph on the backside, particularly because 20 gauges tend to be lighter actioned guns as well.

But you have plenty of low recoil 12-gauge options and sectional density doesn't seem to matter much on hominoid-type creatures. ;)

[JAD]

A compromise which was reached reluctantly, the answer for me from zero to 50 eventually became this, even though recoil becomes more problematic as I age:

YMMV

Gato, if you have not been exposed to the Haught technique to mitigate shotgun recoil please find a way. It can be effectively learned in a single day class. TCinVA teaches it well, as of course does any Mr. Haught you might run into.

[jlw]

Slugs are NOT staying in a body. They WILL over penetrate.

[SwampDweller]

Slugs are NOT staying in a body. They WILL over penetrate.

Yeah slugs are not what I'd consider for home defense unless I lived on acreage and had no one in the house in other rooms.

As for the "shotgun" answer to my previous question, of course a shotgun would be a better choice, I'm just talking lever vs Ruger American bolt action if one had to choose. For instance, if you could only take one long gun with you traveling and were going somewhere where a manually operated weapon might be more wise.

[Outpost75]

WW1 era US Army Signal Corps, British Royal Navy submarines and minesweepers and motorcycle couriers used either .44-40 Model 92 or .30-30 Model 94 Winchesters. WW2 Canadian Pacific Coast Rangers used the Winchester 94 in .30-30. The WW1 Spruce Guns are highly collectible. Mine is marked with US on receiver ring with Ordnance bomb and saddle ring with carbine style steel buttplate and ladder sight. Cdn. Ranger carbine are similar configuration but had sling swivels instead of saddle ring and had crossed pennants property mark.

[Dov]

Slugs are NOT staying in a body. They WILL over penetrate.

That's not my understanding at least if one is talking Foster Slugs, especially Federal Truball.

Penetration more like a good pistol HP or bit less with full power slugs.

Low Recoil 1300 fps one penetrates 13.75" in bare gelatin or 12.75" in heavy clothing
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/slug/details.aspx?id=704

Full power/standard power 1600 fps one penetrates even less normally 10.0" in bare gelatin or 10.0" in heavy clothing
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/slug/details.aspx?id=705

But they seem pretty barrier blind at least vs safety glass.

[jlw]

That's not my understanding at least if one is talking Foster Slugs, especially Federal Truball.

Penetration more like a good pistol HP or bit less with full power slugs.

Low Recoil 1300 fps one penetrates 13.75" in bare gelatin or 12.75" in heavy clothing
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/slug/details.aspx?id=704

Full power/standard power 1600 fps one penetrates even less normally 10.0" in bare gelatin or 10.0" in heavy clothing
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/slug/details.aspx?id=705

But they seem pretty barrier blind at least vs safety glass.


I am relaying the information that I was given by a medical examiner who sees a lot of business. I'll believe him over gelatin tests. What you believe is up to you.

[HCM]

WW1 era US Army Signal Corps, British Royal Navy submarines and minesweepers and motorcycle couriers used either .44-40 Model 92 or .30-30 Model 94 Winchesters. WW2 Canadian Pacific Coast Rangers used the Winchester 94 in .30-30. The WW1 Spruce Guns are highly collectible. Mine is marked with US on receiver ring with Ordnance bomb and saddle ring with carbine style steel buttplate and ladder sight. Cdn. Ranger carbine are similar configuration but had sling swivels instead of saddle ring and had crossed pennants property mark.

Interesting from a gun nerd POV but for purposes of the OP’s question, niche applications arming people unlikely to see combat with what ever is available does not = significant military use.

They are like the 3rd line people we’re seeing in the current Ukraine war who are being issued Mosin Bolt actions because they just need “a gun” and are unlikely to have to actually fight with it.

Aa Rob S mentioned up thread, in actual use these guns were never as great as gun lore has made them out to be.

[HCM]

Slugs are NOT staying in a body. They WILL over penetrate.

There are few absolutes when it comes to terminal ballistics.

Velocity / distance and slug type all play a role.

Neither anecdotal samples nor FBI gel tests are going to correlate 100% to real world outcomes.

[Dov]

I am relaying the information that I was given by a medical examiner who sees a lot of business. I'll believe him over gelatin tests. What you believe is up to you.

I didn't intend any offense.

I am here to learn, that's why I said that was my understanding, not my certainty or fact.

And I'm certainly not saying Fosters never exit, but at least couple older cops I've talked to reported seeing similar effects, that's what led me to Federal's Gelatin testing.

My recollection is that Remington Fosters are a bit different. Similar to IIRC there was a difference in lead alloy used between Federal, Remington, and Winchester 38+P 158 LHP's which lead to slightly different results in gelatin.

Also I wonder if its possible that many or most of those exits observed by ME are Brennekes?

[ssb]

Anecdotes are not data, I know, but FWIW the only real-world shooting I’m familiar with that used a 12GA Foster slug, the slug penetrated a truck door, went through the driver’s arm, most of his torso, exited the driver, and embedded itself in the passenger. The shotgun had at most a 10” bbl, the slugs were those 1oz 1600fps Remingtons that Wal Mart carried forever, and the distance from shooter to target was slightly more than 40 yards.

jlw

If one wanted a lever action for… Americana reasons, I guess, would a .30-30 Marlin 336 be your recommendation?

[bofe954]

I've put quite a few 12ga slugs clean through deer, foster and sabot. The last one went through the deer and a then through the 4inch tree behind the deer. Seen a few 20ga sabot go clean through deer as well.

[jlw]

Anecdotes are not data, I know, but FWIW the only real-world shooting I’m familiar with that used a 12GA Foster slug, the slug penetrated a truck door, went through the driver’s arm, most of his torso, exited the driver, and embedded itself in the passenger. The shotgun had at most a 10” bbl, the slugs were those 1oz 1600fps Remingtons that Wal Mart carried forever, and the distance from shooter to target was slightly more than 40 yards.

@jlw (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=136)

If one wanted a lever action for… Americana reasons, I guess, would a .30-30 Marlin 336 be your recommendation?

Yes. A side loading gate is a must.

[Lester Polfus]

And for what it’s worth...

I once discovered an individual who stuck the barrel of a 12 gauge 870 under his chin and pulled the trigger. The Remington Foster slug didn’t exit, much to the surprise of everyone involved. According to the DME, his skull was cracked apart like an eggshell, and held together only by his scalp.

Definitely an outlier. I would count on a 12 gauge slug exiting.

Probably the second weirdest DB I found.

[SwampDweller]

And for what it’s worth...

I once discovered an individual who stuck the barrel of a 12 gauge 870 under his chin and pulled the trigger. The Remington Foster slug didn’t exit, much to the surprise of everyone involved. According to the DME, his skull was cracked apart like an eggshell, and held together only by his scalp.

Definitely an outlier. I would count on a 12 gauge slug exiting.

Probably the second weirdest DB I found.

Just goes to show how projectiles do weird things, even slugs.

[RevolverRob]

Also I wonder if its possible that many or most of those exits observed by ME are Brennekes?

I would be willing to wager that >90% of them are foster slugs from Winchester, Remington, or Federal, 3/4 ounce if 20-gauge, 1-ounce if 12-gauge, and that most of those were of the 1600fps varieties you find at Wal-Mart. Those that aren't full power are probably 1350fps "managed recoil" varieties.

The remaining percentage of slug shootings probably involve all the other slug types combined, Brenneke, Tru-Ball, Sabot, etc.

FWIW: Buckshot at close distance is my preference. But if I wanted a single, repeating arm, that wasn't terribly offensive looking, for distances from inside my house to 50y, a shotgun with low recoil slugs would be my choice. My personal envelope is only 0y-27y and therefore, I just use buckshot in my HD shotgun.

FWIW 2.0: I think an AR15 or similar would be the better choice for 0-50 if that is an option.

[Dov]

I would be willing to wager that >90% of them are foster slugs from Winchester, Remington, or Federal, 3/4 ounce if 20-gauge, 1-ounce if 12-gauge, and that most of those were of the 1600fps varieties you find at Wal-Mart. Those that aren't full power are probably 1350fps "managed recoil" varieties.

The remaining percentage of slug shootings probably involve all the other slug types combined, Brenneke, Tru-Ball, Sabot, etc.

FWIW: Buckshot at close distance is my preference. But if I wanted a single, repeating arm, that wasn't terribly offensive looking, for distances from inside my house to 50y, a shotgun with low recoil slugs would be my choice. My personal envelope is only 0y-27y and therefore, I just use buckshot in my HD shotgun.

FWIW 2.0: I think an AR15 or similar would be the better choice for 0-50 if that is an option.

I'd assume so as well unless it was Alaska or something, but was thinking there can be big regional differences.

There was a time here in MN when Sabot in rifled Shotguns where really popular in the southern ~half of the state that is slug only for deer or handgun no rifles or buckshot allowed. My understanding is most Sabot Slugs other than the ones designed to mushroom really big tend to penetrate significantly more than Fosters not sure how they compare to Brennekes.

AFAIK at least in my adult lifetime here in MN Buckshot hasn't been legal for any big game so its not something you see on the shelf much, and few people buy it. You might be able to use it on Coyote or Fox legally not sure.

I'm not sure if the Sabot slugs are still as popular as they used to be, haven't been to range during the open to deer hunters week or two most outdoor ranges have in decades.

Handgun hunting changes, both regulations and availability have changed a lot since then. Used to be relatively few that hunted with magnum revolver and very few that used Single Shot handguns, but then the 10mm became available and legal then last I knew they dropped any caliber restriction for handgun other than one that also applied for rifle (ie centerfire 220 or greater) and expanding ammo is required.

[Dov]

And for what it’s worth...

I once discovered an individual who stuck the barrel of a 12 gauge 870 under his chin and pulled the trigger. The Remington Foster slug didn’t exit, much to the surprise of everyone involved. According to the DME, his skull was cracked apart like an eggshell, and held together only by his scalp.

Definitely an outlier. I would count on a 12 gauge slug exiting.

Probably the second weirdest DB I found.

Yeah outliers etc, I had young coworker years ago who's brother attempted suicide with 12 gauge and birdshot, most likely duck load, with shot to chest if I understood correctly and survived.

Details weren't real clear it was a very traumatic experience for the coworker and his family so I was more trying to be supportive than gather details he didn't share on his own initiative.

Might have been shallow shot angle or something.

[Samanator]

Given the choice I would take the lever gun to cover your list of uses. I have many in multiple calibers (44Mag., 357/38S, 22LR, 45-70 and 30-30). All are newer models and all have 500-2000 rounds through them. I’ve never had any issue with any of them. They are from Marlin, Henry and Rossi. The Marlins and Henry are better built than the Rossi. I prefer the newer Marlins the best which I have in 30-30 and the SBL in 45-70. They are nearly art forms. My wife loves to shoot most of these and she is a 90lbs Asian women. You can run these reasonably fast, and for me easily faster than a pump shotgun. Depending on caliber and set up you can hit something reasonably far off. All of mine are using the standard sights though I will probably add the rail and attach one of my scopes to the Marlin 336 30-30 and the Marlin 1895 SBL 45-70.

I see bolt actions as mostly hunting rifles and long range target shooting. I never thought to use one for home defense unless I’m in a red dawn situation and driving something off at a greater than 500 yard distance. My bolt actions are a Browning x-bolt in 6.5 CR Hells Canyon LR 26”, a Tikka also in 6.5 CM. Two Howas with a heavy barrel 16” 6.5 CR and a Howa Hera carbon wrapped 308, and last a Sako in 270. Looking at a .338L Mag Savage chassis rifle just to see how far out I can hit a target. Given the world today the a RedDawn situation could be a possibility where I want to take the targets as far from my location as possible.

One option you might not have considered. I bought my wife a CVA Scout V2 TD in 44Mag. It is a single shot break action hunting rifle. It is SS with synthetic stocks, the barrels are made by Bergerac, light weight and very high quality. They are available in many barrel lengths, have a scope mount rail, and a dozen calibers at a reasonable price in some cases under $400. They also teach the importance of making every shot count. The shorter barrel would work ok in self defense means mostly out doors or as a truck gun. They break down in an easy to carry two pieces. It fits in the box under the rear seat of my truck with several boxes of ammo. Remember for quite a long time a side by side shotgun was a home defense gun. This is the rifle version of that.

[Gadfly]

I have a used 870 police magnum. 5 shot capacity. 50 state legal. $300. Simple, reliable, powerful, vestal.

Given the OPs thoughts, this would be a cheap and effective set up for travel anywhere.
Good to 50yards for sure. Obviously at 100 you would have issues.

Just my $.02

Lever guns are fun, but I would opt for the Ruger American Ranch over a lever. They are cheaper and more than lively far more reliable.

[SwampDweller]

I would opt for the Ruger American Ranch over a lever. They are cheaper and more than lively far more reliable.

Even American Ranch over lever for home/close quarters use?

And yes, shotgun is better suited

[RevolverRob]

If folks haven't...I REALLY suggest you find a lever gun and try running it fast. Particularly a .30-30 or .35Rem gun.

I would guess my folks can run a .223/.300BO bolt gun as fast as a .30-30 Marlin lever. Particularly if topped with a red dot.

Now, I have not yet gotten my hands on a Henry Long Ranger. That, like the old Browning BLR maybe a good ticket. Box mag fed and the straight grip stock should allow you to run the lever hard and fast.

[DamonL]

Deleted

[gato naranja]

If folks haven't...I REALLY suggest you find a lever gun and try running it fast. Particularly a .30-30 or .35Rem gun.

I would guess my folks can run a .223/.300BO bolt gun as fast as a .30-30 Marlin lever. Particularly if topped with a red dot.

Now, I have not yet gotten my hands on a Henry Long Ranger. That, like the old Browning BLR maybe a good ticket. Box mag fed and the straight grip stock should allow you to run the lever hard and fast.

For me, the bolt is slower than the lever and the lever is slower than the pump, but recoil levels are a limiting factor. One of my buddies had a Winchester Model 62 which I think was probably the fastest manually-operated rifle I ever used, but how much of that was the action and how much was due to the lack of recoil?

In leverguns, my slicked up .357 Rossi 92 was the fastest one I have owned, a 94 Winchester in .30-30 was probably the slowest.

[zaitcev]

My 5.56 BLR was lasting with no issues in practice, but I don't bang it about all that much. The gears do not instill confidence. Also, the 5 round magazine and no chance of extension (someone made a 20-rounder for Savage IIRC, using a modified M14 magazine, but it's not going to work in BLR).

I have certain hopes for Bond's upcoming lever AR. It seems better architected than Fight Lite's implementation (which uses a gear like BLR).

[M2CattleCo]

I actually had this conversation today.

The only two I’d be comfortable with (with factory ammo) is a Winchester 1873 in 45 Colt or 357;
or a top eject Winchester ‘94 in 30-30. If you want to make your own ammo and are up for 44-40 or 38-40, the 1873 will not disappoint and now you can consider an 1892, but not a Rossi.

The ‘73 has reliability in spades over anything Marlin and it pains me to say it because the Marlín 1894 is such a cool gun. The only drawbacks are the size and weight, and they need a little more cleaning with a straight walled cartridge as the fouling that blows around the case will eventually cause the elevator to stick. Blow it out with gunscrubber, contact cleaner, or non-clorinated brake cleaner every hundred rounds or so.

There is a little art to running a Winchester ‘94. They need to be cycled briskly, but not hard, with care to completely bump the lever all the way down or it won’t lift the cartridge.

If you’ve never shot a ‘73, you need to…

[Velociginger]

I guess I’ll add my opinion, too.

I would echo some of the above suggestions that using a shotgun or even a bolt-action with detachable magazines is more effective as a “fighting gun” if a semi-auto isn’t an option. I live in the rural Mid-West(ish). I imagine the odds of needing to fend off an Al-Qaida flash mob or parasailing terrorist is barely above zero, so I don’t give it much thought. Lever actions have more limited capacity, they are a pain to cycle from certain positions(like prone), and don’t cycle well upside-down, taking away my Spetznaz backflipping head shot and shovel throw finishing move. If you dent a magazine tube, that could create some feeding problems that otherwise could be solved with a magazine change. Calibers are also, IMO, somewhat inferior to actual rifle cartridges.

That being said, the following is why a Rossi 92 is my most used rifle.

I have become a bit of a Rossi 92 fan; so much so that I’m debating starting my own cult centered around it. I got a R92 “Triple Black” for Father’s Day a while back. It started as a fun plinking toy and turned into somewhat of an obsession. I’ve killed deer at just over 100yds, a few hogs closer, and holocaust-like numbers of raccoons, beavers, and groundhogs. I’ve shot somewhere around 1200 rounds of 357 (mostly reloads) and around a 5 gallon bucket full of 38s (also reloads). I have had exactly 1 malfunction, when trying 148gr HBWC. The round flipped backwards and tried to feed primer-first. Since I shoot and reload more for revolvers than anything else, it’s logistically convenient. It’s become my go-to general purpose carbine. With a Swampfox Justice green dot sight and a cheap Sig pistol light mounted on a MI rail that I bought with PA bonus bucks, it’s much more useful than it has any right to be considering the non-serious accessories, inferior cartridge, and lackluster rate of fire. It looks like a shaved poodle with fetal alcohol syndrome, but carries well, doesn’t take up much room in a SxS, and always hits somewhere on the green dot out to 100yds and change. It’s fallen out of 2 tree stands(one of them a 17’ ladder stand) and out off a SxS into standing water/mud. I clean it occasionally by spraying break-free into the action and a pass with a bore snake, or 2 other times I had to punch mud out of the bore, I used a cleaning rod section.

All of that to say, a lever action can be wonderful, but probably less effective as a “fighting gun” than several other options. I do much more “rednecking” that gun fighting, so for me it works. Customer experiences may vary.

[Totem Polar]

For me, the bolt is slower than the lever and the lever is slower than the pump, but recoil levels are a limiting factor. One of my buddies had a Winchester Model 62 which I think was probably the fastest manually-operated rifle I ever used, but how much of that was the action and how much was due to the lack of recoil?


I grew up shooting a 61 and 62, and still have the same 61. A pump .22 is indeed about as fast as a manual action rifle gets.

My personal “Redneck assault weapon” is a Henry pump in .22 magnum, with some sort of round that I researched heavily upon first purchasing the rifle; maybe CCI 45 gr solid point? I’ll have a look when I get a minute. .22 mag out of a rifle, with round selected for penetration first and expansion second is no joke, close to 9mm service pistol ballistics, if I’m remembering things correctly.

And it has almost no recoil as well; definitely more than .22 LR, but not nearly enough to factor into, well, anything, really.

But I digress.

[gato naranja]

I grew up shooting a 61 and 62, and still have the same 61. A pump .22 is indeed about as fast as a manual action rifle gets.

Pump .22s have been passé for so long that even people with more time on the clock than myself may never have fooled with them, which is a pity, as they were a lot of fun when they weren't malfunctioning due to years of wear and tear.

I wanted to "go home again" with one of the Interarms/Rossi 62 SAC carbines back in the 1980's, but there were too many bills to pay, etc. The modern Braztech/Rossi's are too repellent in appearance for me to even consider now. Thus I remain .22 pump-free... and that's okay. Like finding genuinely neat trinkets in boxes of cereal, driving Plymouth Roadrunners, and watching the Chicago & North Western roll past the edge of town, I at least got to be there while the "being" was good.

[BobM]

I’ve long wanted a Remington 572 pump 22 but haven’t run across one at a price I wanted to pay

[SwampDweller]

Sorry to resurrect a sleeping thread, but this is a subject that has again come into relevancy for me. When I first posted this thread I went with the suggestion of just using a short bolt action rifle (Ruger American Ranch). Great gun, though much slower for me to shoot than my friend's Marlin 1894C. I now find myself looking at lever actions again with the same goal in mind: the most reliable lever action, for what it's worth with it's fragility and potential finickiness. So for the moment, let's put aside the fact that a bolt action is going to be more reliable and robust.

jlw seems to be one of the foremost SMEs on the serious use of lever action rifles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you may believe the Marlin 336 in .30-30 is the most reliable lever action rifle? Are there any .357's that could be considered reliable, and if so which one? I understand I'd probably be stuck using only .357 (no .38) and would have to find a particular load that the rifle likes.

Also, how do you vet reliability of a lever action rifle to ensure no defects before pressing it in a "serious" use role?

[Malamute]

Sorry to resurrect a sleeping thread, but this is a subject that has again come into relevancy for me. When I first posted this thread I went with the suggestion of just using a short bolt action rifle (Ruger American Ranch). Great gun, though much slower for me to shoot than my friend's Marlin 1894C. I now find myself looking at lever actions again with the same goal in mind: the most reliable lever action, for what it's worth with it's fragility and potential finickiness. So for the moment, let's put aside the fact that a bolt action is going to be more reliable and robust.

jlw seems to be one of the foremost SMEs on the serious use of lever action rifles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you may believe the Marlin 336 in .30-30 is the most reliable lever action rifle? Are there any .357's that could be considered reliable, and if so which one? I understand I'd probably be stuck using only .357 (no .38) and would have to find a particular load that the rifle likes.

Also, how do you vet reliability of a lever action rifle to ensure no defects before pressing it in a "serious" use role?


I have a recent Winchester/Miroku 73 carbine in 357, it seems to feed 38 spl loads other than wadcutters just fine. The Marlin 94 in 357 I had in the early 80s worked fine with 38 spl also. Theres varying reports of different 92s working or not with 38 spl loads, Im of the mind it should be able to be tuned a bit by working on the timing of the cartridge stop and when it interacts with the part on the bolt that holds it to the side when the action is closed. If some work fine and some dont, thats the only part that makes sense as to being able to change when the action lets a different length shell out of the tube.

I havent tried it, but 73s have the cartridge captive all through the feed cycle, they may operate upside down, same with 94s and 92s depending on how soon the cartridge guide rails let the rim loose in the feed cycle, I vaguely recall myself or someone trying a 94 in 30-30 upside down and it working.

Opinions vary of course, but the Winchester 94s Ive had have been more functionally reliable than Aks, 1903 Springfields, Marlins (several guns with glitches) and one Whitworth Mauser sporter i had that wasnt set up correctly from the factory for 375 H&H. The only functional issue with any 1886 Winchesters or browning copies was one original 86 that let older remington brass past the cartridge stop, they have a very heavy bevel on the rim. I tweeked the stop with a screwdriver and it was then fine. Dont dry fire Winchesters and they seem to go on, and on, and on.... A late 1950s NRA reloading manual mentioned in the comments about the 94 Winchesters something to the effect "virtually indestructible in service" which has been my experience with them through a couple dozen guns over time since the early 70s, though keep in mind the not dry firing them part if you want them to last.

The loading part of the equation is not insurmountable. Working examples of loaders exist and may become available soon.

Vetting one? I dont know. Examples in generally good condition with no obvious home made improvements on the action and work when shot, I can feel OK about using them. FWIW, the number of little glitches ive experienced with several marlins over time is part of why I dont use them any more. From the "marlin jam", to the spring for the lever plunger that holds the lever up, one jumped the forward barrel band past its screw point and the rim of a shell stuck in the resulting gap where the mag tune goes into the receiver, with no apparent reason, it all seemed properly fitted and tight when fixed...none of any of those things have happened with any Winchester type actions. I broke the firing pin on a 94 dry firing, or using a fired case that the primer was well dented in on. Once repaired, I never dry fired one again unless with a quality snap cap, and even then I wouldnt do it extensively. Much like Smith revolvers, looking one over, checking to see if everything appears to work correctly, they generally run. And Ive not seen a Winchester that wouldnt run at slow speed. Many mention running them briskly, Ive never had one that had to be run briskly so long as you dont short stroke it.

[SwampDweller]

I have a recent Winchester/Miroku 73 carbine in 357, it seems to feed 38 spl loads other than wadcutters just fine. The Marlin 94 in 357 I had in the early 80s worked fine with 38 spl also. Theres varying reports of different 92s working or not with 38 spl loads, Im of the mind it should be able to be tuned a bit by working on the timing of the cartridge stop and when it interacts with the part on the bolt that holds it to the side when the action is closed. If some work fine and some dont, thats the only part that makes sense as to being able to change when the action lets a different length shell out of the tube.

I havent tried it, but 73s have the cartridge captive all through the feed cycle, they may operate upside down, same with 94s and 92s depending on how soon the cartridge guide rails let the rim loose in the feed cycle, I vaguely recall myself or someone trying a 94 in 30-30 upside down and it working.

Opinions vary of course, but the Winchester 94s Ive had have been more functionally reliable than Aks, 1903 Springfields, Marlins (several guns with glitches) and one Whitworth Mauser sporter i had that wasnt set up correctly from the factory for 375 H&H. The only functional issue with any 1886 Winchesters or browning copies was one original 86 that let older remington brass past the cartridge stop, they have a very heavy bevel on the rim. I tweeked the stop with a screwdriver and it was then fine. Dont dry fire Winchesters and they seem to go on, and on, and on.... A late 1950s NRA reloading manual mentioned in the comments about the 94 Winchesters something to the effect "virtually indestructible in service" which has been my experience with them through a couple dozen guns over time since the early 70s, though keep in mind the not dry firing them part if you want them to last.

The loading part of the equation is not insurmountable. Working examples of loaders exist and may become available soon.

Vetting one? I dont know. Examples in generally good condition with no obvious home made improvements on the action and work when shot, I can feel OK about using them. FWIW, the number of little glitches ive experienced with several marlins over time is part of why I dont use them any more. From the "marlin jam", to the spring for the lever plunger that holds the lever up, one jumped the forward barrel band past its screw point and the rim of a shell stuck in the resulting gap where the mag tune goes into the receiver, with no apparent reason, it all seemed properly fitted and tight when fixed...none of any of those things have happened with any Winchester type actions. I broke the firing pin on a 94 dry firing, or using a fired case that the primer was well dented in on. Once repaired, I never dry fired one again unless with a quality snap cap, and even then I wouldnt do it extensively. Much like Smith revolvers, looking one over, checking to see if everything appears to work correctly, they generally run. And Ive not seen a Winchester that wouldnt run at slow speed. Many mention running them briskly, Ive never had one that had to be run briskly so long as you dont short stroke it.

That's some pretty high praise for the Winchester 94. Is this the one you're talking about? I think these are Miroku: https://www.guns.com/firearms/rifles/lever-action/winchester-94-30-30-win-lever-action-7-rounds-2-barrel-new?p=1177661&avad=211021_c395566a9&utm_source=AvantLink&utm_campaign=35987&utm_medium=df_NA

How do modern/recent production Miroku Winchester 94s compare to previous ones in terms of reliability? I can't recall hearing much issue with the Japanese-made Winchesters. I could be wrong but I would think QC would be reasonably high over there.

[CSW]

I'm not sure of the exact period without checking my receipts , but I have a 90s/early 2k Winchester trapper.
Absolutely reliable, wonderful fit and finish.
Probably less than 600 rounds fired, but zero issues

[Malamute]

That's some pretty high praise for the Winchester 94. Is this the one you're talking about? I think these are Miroku: https://www.guns.com/firearms/rifles/lever-action/winchester-94-30-30-win-lever-action-7-rounds-2-barrel-new?p=1177661&avad=211021_c395566a9&utm_source=AvantLink&utm_campaign=35987&utm_medium=df_NA

How do modern/recent production Miroku Winchester 94s compare to previous ones in terms of reliability? I can't recall hearing much issue with the Japanese-made Winchesters. I could be wrong but I would think QC would be reasonably high over there.


I dont think Ive ever seen a Miroku 94. The 94s ive had have been a mix of pre-64, pre-war, and a dozen or more post 64 top ejects. The early post-64 guns had stamped carriers (lifters), I replaced them with the forged or whatever they were in the 80s period just out of caution, but I dont know how the stamped ones held up over time. That was only for a few years in the 60s. I have an angle eject, probably made in the 1980s or early 90s, no crossbolt, has a tang safety, other than some parts having sharp edges, it seems to work about like any of the others with the benefit of a low centrally mounted scope. Choose mounts wisely, many set the scope too high. Leupold did it right with their two piece mounts and low rings. An older Leupold 1-4 works really well on it.

The Miroku made Brownings Ive had and seen have all been excellent quality guns. I have a 92 and 1886. The magazine spring failed on the 92 after leaving it loaded for 10 or 15 years, It got wimpy. I tossed it and replaced with one from a Winchester 94. Probably my favorite is a 94 made in 1927, it was a ranch gun in Az, was used heavily and severely abused, but still worked. I doubt it had been cleaned in any way on 30 or more years when i got it in the 1980s. I replaced a few odd parts that were damaged or lost, cleaned it in a vat of carb cleaner, and it was crisp and functioning perfectly, just not sludgey feeling like when I started. Looks like garbage, but works. I carry it a fair amount.

[03RN]

I have two rossi m92s. They have never missed a beat and are so handy

[SwampDweller]

What about the Uberti or Miroku/Winchester 1873's? Wonder how reliability would compare to a Winchester 94.

I don't care for much of this guy's stuff, but he does shoot lever rifles a hell of a lot more than I have and says the Uberti 73 in .357 is the way to go: https://youtu.be/KASqS__regU?si=iRL1C7-vbwJxK26t

[SwampDweller]

I have two rossi m92s. They have never missed a beat and are so handy

They seem like neat little rifles. How many rounds have you got through each one?

[03RN]

They seem like neat little rifles. How many rounds have you got through each one?

Several thousand rounds each. The 16" .45 colt one has accounted for a lot of deer and has spent a lot of time with me in a canoe or on trails.

[SwampDweller]

Several thousand rounds each. The 16" .45 colt one has accounted for a lot of deer and has spent a lot of time with me in a canoe or on trails.

That's pretty impressive. From the impression I've gotten on the internet, lever actions are notoriously finicky and unreliable, but I gotta think there's a way to get a good, reliable one, so long as one doesn't expect it to blast through 1000 rounds in a range day or something.

[03RN]

That's pretty impressive. From the impression I've gotten on the internet, lever actions are notoriously finicky and unreliable, but I gotta think there's a way to get a good, reliable one, so long as one doesn't expect it to blast through 1000 rounds in a range day or something.

Yeah, I've never had a problem with my m92s, any m94 or the 444 I had but I wasn't running them hard. Maybe a few mag tubes worth of rapid fire on basketballs bouncing down a hill but for the most part just slow fire.

[diananike]

I just got a new R92, 16” .44.
From what I’ve read the quality control on the Rossis has increased significantly over the past few years. The price certainly has.

It’s smooth as can be right out of the box. I think the only thing I’ll do to it is smooth out the edge of the loading port so it doesn’t scrape my brass quite so much.

I was debating getting a Miroku 92 but couldn’t find any 16” ones. The Rossi was also very easy to mount a red dot sight to with the barrel coming drilled and tapped from the factory. The skinner rails are fairly low profile and I didnt need a cheek riser.

[Malamute]

I just got a new R92, 16” .44.
From what I’ve read the quality control on the Rossis has increased significantly over the past few years. The price certainly has.

It’s smooth as can be right out of the box. I think the only thing I’ll do to it is smooth out the edge of the loading port so it doesn’t scrape my brass quite so much.

I was debating getting a Miroku 92 but couldn’t find any 16” ones. The Rossi was also very easy to mount a red dot sight to with the barrel coming drilled and tapped from the factory. The skinner rails are fairly low profile and I didnt need a cheek riser.

I think this is certainly the case. I knew a theater group that had a rossi/puma 357 92 as a prop gun for their show. The guy in charge asked me to look at it once, as something fell out of it. The ejector had come out. Im absolutely certain nobody in their circle had the slightest idea how or ability to take one apart, the ejector had apparently gotten past its retaining pin. I took it apart, put the ejector and spring back in the bolt, and put the gun back together, seeing absolutely no obvious way it could have escaped, it seemed to function fine afterwards. Most unusual. It left me feeling very hesitant about them since, but of course most of them work fine.

My Browning 92 carbine is a peach. Id like it to be shorter. I was going to trade John L some parts for the cut down work, but he passed before we completed the deal. I miss John, we used to have lunch at the Proud Cut once in a while when we ran into each other in town. He was always interesting to talk to.

[SwampDweller]

I've been talking with some Cowboy Action Shooting guys. Overwhelmingly it seems the lever gun of choice is some sort of 1873 reproduction, mostly Ubertis in .357/.38. Reports of reliability seem to be high, though wouldn't a 92 clone be moreso since it's a stronger action? Then again the 1873 is all pistol caliber. The prevailing preference seems to be for Ubertis for '73s, apparently for ease of parts compatibility. There are also Miroku/Winchesters, but I can't find many reports on how those do in regular use.

[diananike]

The toggle lock on the ‘73s is the smoothest of the pistol caliber actions. With a short throw lever kit the 1873 action can be run the fastest of any of the traditional lever guns, hence their popularity in cowboy action shooting.

I have had a Marlin 1894 in .357 for about 15yrs and my new Rossi 92 blows it out of the water for smooth cycling straight out of the box.

Which has made me very curious about 1873 models and how much better an action can get.

[Malamute]

I've been talking with some Cowboy Action Shooting guys. Overwhelmingly it seems the lever gun of choice is some sort of 1873 reproduction, mostly Ubertis in .357/.38. Reports of reliability seem to be high, though wouldn't a 92 clone be moreso since it's a stronger action? Then again the 1873 is all pistol caliber. The prevailing preference seems to be for Ubertis for '73s, apparently for ease of parts compatibility. There are also Miroku/Winchesters, but I can't find many reports on how those do in regular use.


Reliability and strength arent necessarily interchangeable. Individual examples of any type can also have more or less machine marks left inside. Marlins have generally felt pretty gritty and sludgey to me unless slicked up, and they can be pretty slick, same for anything else. Part of why 73s feel slick is the way the action functions, as well as the fact that the carrier(lifter) raises the cartridge mostly horizontal, rather than angled and have to make it around the corner of the chamber so to speak.

In terms of parts availability the Uberti guns probably have it over the Miroku guns, though to me I wanted the Miroku for the perceived quality (all the Miroku guns Ive had or seen are very well made) as well as the name Winchester on the gun. Ubertis are pretty good, and better over time, but have had some quirks, like gunsmiths saying theyve seen some that the barrels didnt torque or index quite right and the factory loc-tited them in place rather than change the barrel or set it back a thread and re-fit the mag tube and fore end. Its been a while since that was reported, and I think theyve upped their game since. ubertis also have a reputation for soft screws, in Colt type pistols and I believe in rifles, to the point theres replacement screw sets available. As far as needing parts, im not sure either really need parts in general, though its nice to have access to spares if one loses or damages something. I havent inquired from Winchester about 73 parts so far.

The loading gate/spring cover/whatever one wishes to call them, have had some issues with Ubertis I believe, the cartridge stop on the back of them have broken, it seems to be a known thing if looking on the CAS City forum site. I dont know if the Miroku guns suffer from the same malady, (I recall asking about it some time ago but dont recall the details) though it occurred to me i may want to get a spare or two. I like keeping basic parts that are easily lost or damaged. Most of the originals seem to have held up well, I dont recall what was changed on the copies that caused the problem. Theres some nit picking by some people about 'theyre more like the originals in some minor detail". None of which details that were mentioned in those discussions were things I care about....although I much prefer the Miroku carbine front sight, a stud brazed onto the barrel with a blade pinned into it, the Uberti carbines have the front sight made as part of the front band. I had a Uberti 1866 so made, it was a huge pain in the arse if it got dropped or bumped, you had to then re-zero it. I dislike that type front sight greatly. Doesnt seem to bother other people.

I wonder if the magazine spring in the Uberti 73s is the same as the 92s, I have no experience or information about that detail. In the Miroku 73 I have the spring is very soft and many coils, I believe its intended to be so to reduce spring pressure and the cartridge slapping back into the stop when the carrier comes down. It also makes the magazine super easy to load, none of the business of not loading a round all the way in so the next one can start easily. The 73s and 86 load slick as can be without such methods. the 92s and 94s nearly as slick when the back of the gate is polished well and other internals arent too rough. Ive done trick of not pushing each round all the way in in the past with Winchester 94s and thought I was clever, then several times had a handful of shells spit back out the gate. When they work correctly none of that is needed or desirable. Winchester used to suggest it, but I believe they were covering their tail when making roughly finished guns and got complaints on them being hard to load. Blame it on the user, not the gun. Theres a simple fix for 94s that are hard to start cartridges in.

[SwampDweller]

Reliability and strength arent necessarily interchangeable. Individual examples of any type can also have more or less machine marks left inside. Marlins have generally felt pretty gritty and sludgey to me unless slicked up, and they can be pretty slick, same for anything else. Part of why 73s feel slick is the way the action functions, as well as the fact that the carrier(lifter) raises the cartridge mostly horizontal, rather than angled and have to make it around the corner of the chamber so to speak.

In terms of parts availability the Uberti guns probably have it over the Miroku guns, though to me I wanted the Miroku for the perceived quality (all the Miroku guns Ive had or seen are very well made) as well as the name Winchester on the gun. Ubertis are pretty good, and better over time, but have had some quirks, like gunsmiths saying theyve seen some that the barrels didnt torque or index quite right and the factory loc-tited them in place rather than change the barrel or set it back a thread and re-fit the mag tube and fore end. Its been a while since that was reported, and I think theyve upped their game since. ubertis also have a reputation for soft screws, in Colt type pistols and I believe in rifles, to the point theres replacement screw sets available. As far as needing parts, im not sure either really need parts in general, though its nice to have access to spares if one loses or damages something. I havent inquired from Winchester about 73 parts so far.

The loading gate/spring cover/whatever one wishes to call them, have had some issues with Ubertis I believe, the cartridge stop on the back of them have broken, it seems to be a known thing if looking on the CAS City forum site. I dont know if the Miroku guns suffer from the same malady, (I recall asking about it some time ago but dont recall the details) though it occurred to me i may want to get a spare or two. I like keeping basic parts that are easily lost or damaged. Most of the originals seem to have held up well, I dont recall what was changed on the copies that caused the problem. Theres some nit picking by some people about 'theyre more like the originals in some minor detail". None of which details that were mentioned in those discussions were things I care about....although I much prefer the Miroku carbine front sight, a stud brazed onto the barrel with a blade pinned into it, the Uberti carbines have the front sight made as part of the front band. I had a Uberti 1866 so made, it was a huge pain in the arse if it got dropped or bumped, you had to then re-zero it. I dislike that type front sight greatly. Doesnt seem to bother other people.

I wonder if the magazine spring in the Uberti 73s is the same as the 92s, I have no experience or information about that detail. In the Miroku 73 I have the spring is very soft and many coils, I believe its intended to be so to reduce spring pressure and the cartridge slapping back into the stop when the carrier comes down. It also makes the magazine super easy to load, none of the business of not loading a round all the way in so the next one can start easily. The 73s and 86 load slick as can be without such methods. the 92s and 94s nearly as slick when the back of the gate is polished well and other internals arent too rough. Ive done trick of not pushing each round all the way in in the past with Winchester 94s and thought I was clever, then several times had a handful of shells spit back out the gate. When they work correctly none of that is needed or desirable. Winchester used to suggest it, but I believe they were covering their tail when making roughly finished guns and got complaints on them being hard to load. Blame it on the user, not the gun. Theres a simple fix for 94s that are hard to start cartridges in.
Yeah, it sounds like there are pros and cons for each. I just can’t find much on long-term use of Miroku 73s.

I also have been looking at the BLR. It’s more modern but shouldn’t that give it an edge?

[Malamute]

Yeah, it sounds like there are pros and cons for each. I just can’t find much on long-term use of Miroku 73s.

I also have been looking at the BLR. It’s more modern but shouldn’t that give it an edge?

An edge in what sense? I have no personal experience with the BLR guns, though I bought one to trade to a guy that built a chevy motor for me ages ago. He hunted with it and also bought cheap USA brand (Winchester white box I believe) 308 M80 ball loads, it locked the gun up solid. I dont recall how he got it unlocked, but it wasnt a field expedient procedure. I think he sold it shortly after that and got a winchester 94 to hunt with. I believe they are generally accurate, but I never was very interested in them due to their non-traditional appearance. Thats all I have on them.

The only person I know with a Miroku 73 is a friend and gunsmith, he shoots cowboy action, he said he has around 50k rounds of 45 Colt through his with zero issues. I love my 357 carbine, and doubt I'll ever live long enough to wear it out or hurt it. Due to life situation Ive not shot it much so far, but hope thats taking a turn for the better.

[SwampDweller]

An edge in what sense? I have no personal experience with the BLR guns, though I bought one to trade to a guy that built a chevy motor for me ages ago. He hunted with it and also bought cheap USA brand (Winchester white box I believe) 308 M80 ball loads, it locked the gun up solid. I dont recall how he got it unlocked, but it wasnt a field expedient procedure. I think he sold it shortly after that and got a winchester 94 to hunt with. I believe they are generally accurate, but I never was very interested in them due to their non-traditional appearance. Thats all I have on them.

The only person I know with a Miroku 73 is a friend and gunsmith, he shoots cowboy action, he said he has around 50k rounds of 45 Colt through his with zero issues. I love my 357 carbine, and doubt I'll ever live long enough to wear it out or hurt it. Due to life situation Ive not shot it much so far, but hope thats taking a turn for the better.

Perhaps more robust/simpler? I could be totally off on that.

I was also considering the Marlin 1894C in .357, but the "Marlin jam" associated with it's lack of controlled feeding has turned me off. The only long-term, somewhat high round count information I can find on lever actions in regular use seems to be with Cowboy Action Shooting, and the '73 dominates that field seemingly with good reputation whether from Uberti or Miroku. The only reason I'm considering Uberti over Miroku is because supposedly it's easier to replace parts.

[Rex G]

The current Browning BLRs are Miroku-made. (Current meaning since some time in the Eighties, I would think.) Mine have only been lightly used, and only with .308 Winchester ammo, not 7.62 NATO, so, I have never pushed the robustness/durability envelope. I have seen anecdotes about BLR’s becoming locked-up tight, some of which “sounded” a bit hyperbolic, but some of which seemed credible. My only local friend, who also uses BLRs, has not pushed them hard, either, as far as I know, just local deer hunting. I simply don’t know what to think about BLRs, as a fighting rifle, if conditions were to get really bad. BLRs chamber high-pressure ammo, and lack much strength for primary extraction.

Certainly do vet EACH lot of ammo, for signs of extraction issues. That is not going to allow for the occasional overly-hot round, but, at least, one can be reasonably sure that the whole lot is not going be a problem. At the very least

In a true end-of-the-rule-of-law scenario, during which maintenance is problematic, I am not sure that I would prefer any lever-action weapon, over a reasonably rugged turn-bolt, or a 5.56 NATO AR/M4. If I had to go to a Very Dangerous Place, where I thought I might have to shoot beyond typical pistol-fight/shotgun distances, I have reached the point that I would rather bring an AR/M4, with appropriate 75-grain or 77-grain ammo, if regionally legal to do so.

[Rex G]

Perhaps more robust/simpler? I could be totally off on that.



The BLR has a VERY complex bolt assembly. It received some early praise, for being AR15-like, in design, but design and execution can be different, in the real world.

[gato naranja]

In a true end-of-the-rule-of-law scenario, during which maintenance is problematic, I am not sure that I would prefer any lever-action weapon, over a reasonably rugged turn-bolt, or a 5.56 NATO AR/M4. If I had to go to a Very Dangerous Place, where I thought I might have to shoot beyond typical pistol-fight/shotgun distances, I have reached the point that I would rather bring an AR/M4, with appropriate 75-grain or 77-grain ammo, if regionally legal to do so.

Two people who were very influential in my firearms journey - though at widely separated parts of my life - believed that the best "well, I guess this is it" gun to have was a sporterized Mauser in 7x57. They had seen things come and go, and if all the chips were down, they both figured that was the rifle and cartridge combo least likely to let them down.

I suppose they would get laughed out of town nowadays, but I still don't think they were too far off the mark.

[SwampDweller]

The current Browning BLRs are Miroku-made. (Current meaning since some time in the Eighties, I would think.) Mine have only been lightly used, and only with .308 Winchester ammo, not 7.62 NATO, so, I have never pushed the robustness/durability envelope. I have seen anecdotes about BLR’s becoming locked-up tight, some of which “sounded” a bit hyperbolic, but some of which seemed credible. My only local friend, who also uses BLRs, has not pushed them hard, either, as far as I know, just local deer hunting. I simply don’t know what to think about BLRs, as a fighting rifle, if conditions were to get really bad. BLRs chamber high-pressure ammo, and lack much strength for primary extraction.

Certainly do vet EACH lot of ammo, for signs of extraction issues. That is not going to allow for the occasional overly-hot round, but, at least, one can be reasonably sure that the whole lot is not going be a problem. At the very least

In a true end-of-the-rule-of-law scenario, during which maintenance is problematic, I am not sure that I would prefer any lever-action weapon, over a reasonably rugged turn-bolt, or a 5.56 NATO AR/M4. If I had to go to a Very Dangerous Place, where I thought I might have to shoot beyond typical pistol-fight/shotgun distances, I have reached the point that I would rather bring an AR/M4, with appropriate 75-grain or 77-grain ammo, if regionally legal to do so.

I'm not necessarily looking at it as a end-of-rule-of-law type rifle, I would agree that an AR (or in my case, 5.56 Polish Beryl AK) or, if one wanted a manually operated rifle, a rugged bolt gun would be a better choice. My primary uses for this would be home/self defense, maybe some hiking/woods/camping, and perhaps some cowboy action shooting. That said, it still needs to be reliable. I also see the BLR in .223 is discontinued, so I think something like a .357 Mag would make more sense than a full power rifle caliber like .308. Also open to .30-30, which it's my understanding that rifle caliber lever guns are less finicky than pistol caliber. But the '73 seems to get good marks for reliability, including among those who shoot quite a lot in cowboy action.

[45dotACP]

What about the 1895 Winchester? Was that a durable rifle? Or the 300 savage rifles?

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[MolonLabe416]

Henry makes a 223 BLR-like lever gun.

[Borderland]

What about the 1895 Winchester? Was that a durable rifle? Or the 300 savage rifles?

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

I had a 95 saddle ring carbine in HS and hunted with it, 30-40 Krag. Heavy like a 8.5 lbs. and mortar like trajectory. I shot my first deer with it when I was about 15. The reason the first rifle I purchased when I had the money was a bolt rifle model 70..

I'm not saying a lever carbine wouldn't be useful in a SD situation, just that bolt rifles are more versatile. I don't own any lever rifles today but certainly understand how they work and the very complex actions..

[SwampDweller]

Now I've been looking at some of the customized Uberti 1873s some of the Cowboy Action Shooting guys have been pointing me towards. Longhunter with a short stroke kit and all sorts of other things done to slick them up.
The 1873 18" in .357 is about $2110 after shipping/fees: https://www.longhunt.com/web/index.php?page=cowboy-action-shooting

I don't know if having these "upgrades" would have any effect on reliability, either negatively or positively, but it seems to be the go-to for the CAS guys, some of which shoot quite a lot.

[Borderland]

I had the opportunity to load for and shoot a .357 bolt rifle, with a 4x scope, for about 4 years. I was so disappointed in the accuracy at 100 yds I sold the rifle. That was after it went back to Ruger and they put a new barrel on it. You can probably guess the model. Eventually I bought another Ruger, a Mini-14 Ranch and I'm happy with the <3 MOA after I had some trigger work done. It's reliable, easy to scope, and uses magazines.

Pistol cartridge carbines are a mistake and I proved it to myself. Of course if you want to cosplay I don't see anything wrong with a .357 lever rifle, but there are more versatile rifles, excluding the AR, for SD.

[SwampDweller]

I had the opportunity to load for and shoot a .357 bolt rifle, with a 4x scope, for about 4 years. I was so disappointed in the accuracy at 100 yds I sold the rifle. That was after it went back to Ruger and they put a new barrel on it. You can probably guess the model. Eventually I bought another Ruger, a Mini-14 Ranch and I'm happy with the <3 MOA after I had some trigger work done. It's reliable, easy to scope, and uses magazines.

Pistol cartridge carbines are a mistake and I proved it to myself. Of course if you want to cosplay I don't see anything wrong with a .357 lever rifle, but there are more versatile rifles, excluding the AR, for SD.

The Mini 14 is on my short list as well, particularly for travel to certain states, though practical or not, I still want a reliable lever action rifle. Or more generally, a manually-operated rifle that is a little faster than a bolt action (Ruger American Ranch). I am open to suggestions regarding lever action choices (both pistol and rifle caliber) and other manually operated rifles.

There seem to be several people here who have been satisfied with their pistol caliber lever actions.

For me, this is more of a close-in use type gun, so as long as accuracy is workable within 50 yards (100 max), I'd be satisfied. That said I am not stuck on pistol caliber, and am aware that there are specific quirks associated with them.

[Malamute]

Im not sure what the PC lever quirks mentioned are, if you could give more specifics it would help. What I am aware of is winchester 94s in 357 can be temperamental in some regards, but thats not a blanket statement that applies to other calibers or other models for the same reasons. Model 92s need to have the guide rails fitted correctly, most seem to be. Bullet shape/style can affect feeding in some guns, and doesnt seem to matter in other examples of the same make/type. 73s seem to feed better in most regards since the cartridge is feeding nearly on the same plane as the chamber and is contained in the carrier. I tried my 73 357 upside down with Fed JSP, it didnt seem to like it much, but I havent needed one to feed upside down so far, I guess Im satisfied with its reliability otherwise.

As far as a CAS tuned gun to start out, Im not sure why one would spend that kind of money as a starter. Ive used levers fairly extensively since the early 70s and so far havent had any of the CAS type modifications done on any of mine and would likely put them back to stock if I bought one so modified. I havent attempted to run one so hard it required any special work, but in shooting to my ability in follow-up shots have not had any malfunctions or problems. Ive changed a lot of little tings on many of my guns (sights, stocks, slings, barrel band locations, chopped barrels, clean up rough internal parts on a few) just none of the CAS type stuff thats popular.

The only levers that come to mind as complicated would be the Winchester model 95, and perhaps a Browning BLR, though both seem to work pretty well overall. Ive had a couple Browning 95s in 30-06, neat guns, but the protruding box magazine makes them awkward to carry compared to tube magazine guns. Whatever the number or parts a particular guns has (if thats part of a perception of complicated) compared to some other gun, the traditional levers Ive had and been around seem to mostly work well.

There are no perfect guns, many do some things better than others, some can do a lot of things very well. Levers carry better than anything else Ive tried, are simple to operate, handle well, like shooting running rabbits, been very reliable in most of my use (without going into specific makes), and reasonably accurate for most things I need to do on an average day. I very much like that I can easily swap a very light load for snakes, small game or whatever, and clear the chamber, while the magazine is left loaded. If I specifically go out to hunt meat I take a scoped bolt gun, but otherwise dont like carrying bolts much, they just feel thick, chunky and awkward compared to levers to me. Probably the biggest thing for me is I like them, partly for their general usefulness as a day to day gun, and for the history. I understand why people choose other things for whatever their uses are, for my use they are my favorite for a daily carry and keep close gun. For me they fit the same niche as a Smith 19, Smith 29, or Colt/Ruger single action. As a rough guess Ive carried some lever to some degree a couple thousand days since I moved to Az in 81. I could easily do without anything else.

[SwampDweller]

Im not sure what the PC lever quirks mentioned are, if you could give more specifics it would help. What I am aware of is winchester 94s in 357 can be temperamental in some regards, but thats not a blanket statement that applies to other calibers or other models for the same reasons. Model 92s need to have the guide rails fitted correctly, most seem to be. Bullet shape/style can affect feeding in some guns, and doesnt seem to matter in other examples of the same make/type. 73s seem to feed better in most regards since the cartridge is feeding nearly on the same plane as the chamber and is contained in the carrier. I tried my 73 357 upside down with Fed JSP, it didnt seem to like it much, but I havent needed one to feed upside down so far, I guess Im satisfied with its reliability otherwise.

As far as a CAS tuned gun to start out, Im not sure why one would spend that kind of money as a starter. Ive used levers fairly extensively since the early 70s and so far havent had any of the CAS type modifications done on any of mine and would likely put them back to stock if I bought one so modified. I havent attempted to run one so hard it required any special work, but in shooting to my ability in follow-up shots have not had any malfunctions or problems. Ive changed a lot of little tings on many of my guns (sights, stocks, slings, barrel band locations, chopped barrels, clean up rough internal parts on a few) just none of the CAS type stuff thats popular.

The only levers that come to mind as complicated would be the Winchester model 95, and perhaps a Browning BLR, though both seem to work pretty well overall. Ive had a couple Browning 95s in 30-06, neat guns, but the protruding box magazine makes them awkward to carry compared to tube magazine guns. Whatever the number or parts a particular guns has (if thats part of a perception of complicated) compared to some other gun, the traditional levers Ive had and been around seem to mostly work well.

There are no perfect guns, many do some things better than others, some can do a lot of things very well. Levers carry better than anything else Ive tried, are simple to operate, handle well, like shooting running rabbits, been very reliable in most of my use (without going into specific makes), and reasonably accurate for most things I need to do on an average day. I very much like that I can easily swap a very light load for snakes, small game or whatever, and clear the chamber, while the magazine is left loaded. If I specifically go out to hunt meat I take a scoped bolt gun, but otherwise dont like carrying bolts much, they just feel thick, chunky and awkward compared to levers to me. Probably the biggest thing for me is I like them, partly for their general usefulness as a day to day gun, and for the history. I understand why people choose other things for whatever their uses are, for my use they are my favorite for a daily carry and keep close gun. For me they fit the same niche as a Smith 19, Smith 29, or Colt/Ruger single action. As a rough guess Ive carried some lever to some degree a couple thousand days since I moved to Az in 81. I could easily do without anything else.

I couldn’t tell you much on what I’ve heard about pistol caliber lever actions being more finicky. JLW has talked about it. I think it was mainly that sometimes .38 doesn’t play nice in a .357 lever action.

I agree, I don’t think I need the slicked up version, I’d probably go with a factory option. So do you think the Cimarron/Uberti 1873 in .357 would be a good pick?

[Malamute]

I couldn’t tell you much on what I’ve heard about pistol caliber lever actions being more finicky. JLW has talked about it. I think it was mainly that sometimes .38 doesn’t play nice in a .357 lever action.

I agree, I don’t think I need the slicked up version, I’d probably go with a factory option. So do you think the Cimarron/Uberti 1873 in .357 would be a good pick?

Cartridge length can matter, apparently even between individual guns, I think the 92s can be adjusted or tuned a but to allow more length variation. The 73s will tolerate a little length difference, but likely not quite as much as a properly set up 92, just as a seat of the pants guess. Theres a tab on the lower front part of the bolt that interacts with the cartridge stop, a spring steel thing in the left front part of the receiver that moves over to stop more shells from coming out of the mag when the bolt opens. When those parts move apart, that timing, is what determines the length of cartridge that works. Im certain a good lever smith can adjust that, as should any moderately talented home gun tinkerer that understands how the guns function. The 73s have fewer parts related to cartridge stop function, just the carrier and how much its beveled inside the front edge.

The Cimarron/Uberti 73 should be a very good example, if I didnt have the Miroku/Winchester gun thats what I would have.

I prefer the carbines for several reasons, the shorter and lighter aspect being a significant part. The butt stocks of the carbines are more friendly to my shoulder also. ive had a few original and repro rifles with crescent butts. Mention not liking them and you will generally get at least one person telling you theyre great, youre just not doing it right. I had the crescent cut off my Browning 1886 I disliked it so much, trying the 500 gr loads @ 1750 fps had something to do with it, but it was more of a last straw. Shotgun butt with a rifle type or the regular carbine butt like the old late 1800s to 1920s carbines had fit me well and are comfortable to shoot. Stock fit can be pretty individual, but the fact that crescent butts died out in general use is a clue to me that Im not the oly one that doesnt like them much.

The Brits had the stock thing figured out on rifles long before the Americans caught on. They had shotgun butts on sporting rifles back into the flintlock period. Tradition dies hard in some ways, even when it sucks.

[Malamute]

As for the slicked up or modified gun, like most things, id just say shoot it a while until you get to know it enough to understand if they will really make a useful difference for you. You can spend the extra money saved on ammo. I pretty much put a sling and receiver sight on most, though the 73 carbine has only gotten the sling so far, I carry them in hand, but its nice to sling it when needing both hands. I like the issue sights with the addition of bright orange nail polish on the front sight.

[SwampDweller]

As for the slicked up or modified gun, like most things, id just say shoot it a while until you get to know it enough to understand if they will really make a useful difference for you. You can spend the extra money saved on ammo. I pretty much put a sling and receiver sight on most, though the 73 carbine has only gotten the sling so far, I carry them in hand, but its nice to sling it when needing both hands. I like the issue sights with the addition of bright orange nail polish on the front sight.

I certainly will do. I'd much rather spend the money on ammo. I'd also love to find a receiver sight, though I don't know how to go about finding one.

I'm about 90% sure I'm going with the Uberti/Cimarron 1873 in .357, but I'm also still minorly considering a Winchester/Miroku (new production) 1892, but I can't find much on how those do or how they compare to a Uberti '73 reliability-wise.

The other only one I'm still considering is a Ruger-Marlin 336 in .30-30 for a true rifle caliber levergun, which seems to be what resident lever gun SME jlw prefers. The Ruger-produced Marlins seem to be doing well, though .30-30 is quite expensive and not as commonly available as it used to be in my AO.

[SwampDweller]

I'm kind of back to the drawing board with what lever gun to get in the hopes of getting one that is as reliable and durable as a lever gun can be. First I was planning on the Uberti 1873 in .357, then my research raised concerns about shooting frequent amounts of .357 Magnum with the relatively weaker toggle link system.

Then I focused on the Winchester/Miroku 1892 in .357, but among CAS shooters there seem to be reported failure to fire issues with the rebounding hammer system and multi-piece firing pin of the Japanese-made current Winchesters.

Maybe I should look at simply getting a .30-30 like a Ruger-made Marlin 336, though I can't find any available right now. The Marlin 1894C in .357 is strong but the infamous "Marlin jam" with those is something I have seen personally and removes it from the running for me.

Potential solutions are getting a different caliber (.30-30 Marlin, .45 Colt Uberti 73, etc), or simply getting the Uberti 73 and limiting myself to only shooting .38 Special for normal shooting and only keep .357 in it for woods or defense use. I am open to suggestions.

[4RNR]

Winchester 1895? 5 rounds of 30-06!

They were battle tested on the Eastern front in WW1. Had issues with dirt and mud getting into the action. Ultimately the bolt action proved to be more durable and reliable but IDK how much trench warfare is matters to you.

To me, if im picking a 5 shot lever action the 30-06 is probably the best overall round to have but the rifle does have a 24in barrel and 42in overall weighing 8lbs. VS Marlin 336 in 30-30 6+1. Weighing 7.5lbs, 20in barrel, 38.5 overall. Slightly smaller, little less weight but adds 2 more rounds of 30-30.

Why not just go with a bolt action? Ruger makes the scout with detachable mags. You can do 223 or 308 as far as common calibers go. Already comes with irons and rail for RDS/Scope. Comes in 3, 5, 10 rounds for 308. 19in barrel, 40in overall, 7.3lbs with a 10rd mag

[SwampDweller]

Winchester 1895? 5 rounds of 30-06!

They were battle tested on the Eastern front in WW1. Had issues with dirt and mud getting into the action. Ultimately the bolt action proved to be more durable and reliable but IDK how much trench warfare is matters to you.

To me, if im picking a 5 shot lever action the 30-06 is probably the best overall round to have but the rifle does have a 24in barrel and 42in overall weighing 8lbs. VS Marlin 336 in 30-30 6+1. Weighing 7.5lbs, 20in barrel, 38.5 overall. Slightly smaller, little less weight but adds 2 more rounds of 30-30.

Why not just go with a bolt action? Ruger makes the scout with detachable mags. You can do 223 or 308 as far as common calibers go. Already comes with irons and rail for RDS/Scope. Comes in 3, 5, 10 rounds for 308. 19in barrel, 40in overall, 7.3lbs with a 10rd mag

I have a bolt action (bought on the advice early in this thread) and really like it. I do find the lever actions to be a bit quicker, though, especially if used as a woods defense gun or travel to gun unfriendly states. Thus I want a lever action in addition to my handy bolt actions.

[Borderland]

This thread has peaked my interest once again in a .357 lever rifle. I have a 4 year supply of brass, powder and SP primers. I do have several model 19's but I don't shoot .357 in those anymore. So really all I have now for .357 is a model 28. I'll never come close to using 5 lbs. of 2400 powder. When I go to the pistol range I usually shoot a 1911 or some other auto. I use those for HD and carry.

So off down the lever rifle rabbit hole I go one more time. I'll be looking at the ease of putting a receiver sight on it.

I know I said PCC's are a mistake but I think I was looking for rifle cartridge accuracy with the 77/357 I had. It just wasn't there, so like I generally do I over compensated and built a .223 precision bolt rifle. Smacking tiny little targets at 220 yds is fun but I have just as much fun hitting 18'' plates with my M-1 carbine at that distance.

The lever rifle won't be used for any hunting, cosplay, or HD. Just a 100 yd range toy.

This place sucks if you only have one safe.

[Malamute]

This thread has peaked my interest once again in a .357 lever rifle. I have a 4 year supply of brass, powder and SP primers. I do have several model 19's but I don't shoot .357 in those anymore. So really all I have now for .357 is a model 28. I'll never come close to using 5 lbs. of 2400 powder. When I go to the pistol range I usually shoot a 1911 or some other auto. I use those for HD and carry.

So off down the lever rifle rabbit hole I go one more time. I'll be looking at the ease of putting a receiver sight on it.

I know I said PCC's are a mistake but I think I was looking for rifle cartridge accuracy with the 77/357 I had. It just wasn't there, so like I generally do I over compensated and built a .223 precision bolt rifle. Smacking tiny little targets at 220 yds is fun but I have just as much fun hitting 18'' plates with my M-1 carbine at that distance.

The lever rifle won't be used for any hunting, cosplay, or HD. Just a 100 yd range toy.

This place sucks if you only have one safe.

I believe accuracy problems with the Ruger 77-357 guns was a thing, its not specific to the cartridge, but to Rugers execution of the idea somehow. They also had some problems with the 22 mags or 22 Hornets, I dont recall which, but do recall reading of discussions where people either spent a lot of time and effort finding good loads or just gave up and moved on to another gun. I was interested in a 77-357 until reading of the number of people saying they couldnt get theirs to shoot well. Seems like 4-6" groups was not unusual scoped. Ive shot 6" groups @ 100 yds with iron sighted revolvers and a hair better with the 22 kit on the Colt National Match auto, not what id be happy with in a rifle.

No, most levers wont shoot with good bolt guns, but some do shoot pretty well with ammo they prefer.

[gato naranja]

I'll be looking at the ease of putting a receiver sight on it.

I have found the Marlin 1894 to be the easy button vis-a-vis receiver sights and/or optics mounts. Nothing I have tried yet in .357 lever guns is perfect, and I somewhat diffidently settled on Marlins as "the compromise I dislike the least" (which sounds gloomier than it actually is).

[SwampDweller]

I have found the Marlin 1894 to be the easy button vis-a-vis receiver sights and/or optics mounts. Nothing I have tried yet in .357 lever guns is perfect, and I somewhat diffidently settled on Marlins as "the compromise I dislike the least" (which sounds gloomier than it actually is).

I like the look and feel of the Marlins, and by all accounts the new Ruger-made Marlins have very good QC. The reason I don't consider it is because of the "Marlin jam" with the 1894 .357s, something I did get to see in person. This video explains it better than I could (though I'm not a big fan of the guy doing the presentation), and shows a snippet of it almost happening neat the time I linked: https://youtu.be/KASqS__regU?t=366

I do wonder whether the other Marlins (336 in .30-30, or the .45-70s) have the possibility of a similar jam, or if the differences in those designs precluding such a thing.

[gato naranja]

I like the look and feel of the Marlins, and by all accounts the new Ruger-made Marlins have very good QC. The reason I don't consider it is because of the "Marlin jam" with the 1894 .357s, something I did get to see in person. This video explains it better than I could (though I'm not a big fan of the guy doing the presentation), and shows a snippet of it almost happening neat the time I linked: https://youtu.be/KASqS__regU?t=366

I do wonder whether the other Marlins (336 in .30-30, or the .45-70s) have the possibility of a similar jam, or if the differences in those designs precluding such a thing.

AFAIK, the "Marlin jam" potentiality is baked into the pie (so to speak) regardless of model. That being said, some people never seem to experience it; I carefully stone many of the "knife edges" on Marlin internals including the potential bad actor on the "snail." Maybe that is like whistling past the graveyard, but apart from one example made around 2000 I personally don't seem to have the issues some others do. I will not rule out dumb luck.

All levergun designs have their idiosyncrasies, not just Marlins. In my own case I have had 92s whose lever-to-breechblock pin gets unaccountably displaced a smidge and ties the thing up tight, 73 euro repops that shear off this or that screw (or get a quick case of the headspace blues), Henrys that mysteriously start feeding poorly...
Good points, weak points. Sort of like the tractor truisms back in the day when - for example - John Deeres had cooling issues and IH Farmalls had sub-par brakes. You made your pick and took your chances.

For true durability and reliability in extremis, I wouldn't trust any levergun like I would a 98 Mauser. Ease and speed of use is a whole 'nother matter, and as far as intangibles like "personality" and "cachet" go, I think bolt guns pretty much suck.

[SwampDweller]

AFAIK, the "Marlin jam" potentiality is baked into the pie (so to speak) regardless of model. That being said, some people never seem to experience it; I carefully stone many of the "knife edges" on Marlin internals including the potential bad actor on the "snail." Maybe that is like whistling past the graveyard, but apart from one example made around 2000 I personally don't seem to have the issues some others do. I will not rule out dumb luck.

All levergun designs have their idiosyncrasies, not just Marlins. In my own case I have had 92s whose lever-to-breechblock pin gets unaccountably displaced a smidge and ties the thing up tight, 73 euro repops that shear off this or that screw (or get a quick case of the headspace blues), Henrys that mysteriously start feeding poorly...
Good points, weak points. Sort of like the tractor truisms back in the day when - for example - John Deeres had cooling issues and IH Farmalls had sub-par brakes. You made your pick and took your chances.

For true durability and reliability in extremis, I wouldn't trust any levergun like I would a 98 Mauser. Ease and speed of use is a whole 'nother matter, and as far as intangibles like "personality" and "cachet" go, I think bolt guns pretty much suck.

It's my understanding that the "Marlin jam" with the .357 1894 has to do with the round not being controlled feeding (And thus if you short stroke it just a little bit, or are sluggish on the closing of the lever, it can have a serious jam), whereas the jam with other models have to do with the carrier wearing out. It is my understanding that the '94 pistol caliber jam can happen regardless of round count/wear. Or maybe the two are connected, I don't know. I'm far from a Marlin expert.

[Malamute]

I have little or no experience with the marlin jam. I had a 1970s period marilin 1894 in 357, it had some sort of feed issue that required it to be taken apart to clear. I nevr did figure out how or why it happened, but soured me somewhat on the gun and marlins in general. I eventually sold the gun, I never did shoot it much after that, and not huge amounts before, it was a small game shooter to me. It was only one factor in why I eventually dropped marlins as general carry guns. Id never heard of the marlin jam at the time and it was decades later before i did.

Ive had a few other somewhat minor quirks come up with marlins, one or two that didnt seem to make sense, but happened regardless of my ability to understand why. If I was more of a fan or there were less choices in lever guns I would perhaps have overlooked the issues and stayed with them, as it were, there were other choices in levers that I had better experiences with and liked more overall for various reasons, so the marlins faded out in my use.

[gato naranja]

It's my understanding that the "Marlin jam" with the .357 1894 has to do with the round not being controlled feeding (And thus if you short stroke it just a little bit, or are sluggish on the closing of the lever, it can have a serious jam), whereas the jam with other models have to do with the carrier wearing out. It is my understanding that the '94 pistol caliber jam can happen regardless of round count/wear. Or maybe the two are connected, I don't know. I'm far from a Marlin expert.

I am not a Marlin SME by any means, just an owner who has been around the block too many times to have many illusions about them.

The real "Marlin jam" is a thing, but many rifles never have the issue... and it is generally a pretty easy fix; it is also something that - IMO - can be (more or less) prevented if it has not already occurred. There are other things in the Marlin action (particularly the latter-day "modern" ones) that can also act up, but they are nothing particularly hard to deal with. The Marlin is a rather simple firearm compared to a Browning-designed Winchester or clone, but the price to be payed for that is that everything that is there has to be RIGHT- something Marlin was not always that good at delivering.

[SwampDweller]

I am not a Marlin SME by any means, just an owner who has been around the block too many times to have many illusions about them.

The real "Marlin jam" is a thing, but many rifles never have the issue... and it is generally a pretty easy fix; it is also something that - IMO - can be (more or less) prevented if it has not already occurred. There are other things in the Marlin action (particularly the latter-day "modern" ones) that can also act up, but they are nothing particularly hard to deal with. The Marlin is a rather simple firearm compared to a Browning-designed Winchester or clone, but the price to be payed for that is that everything that is there has to be RIGHT- something Marlin was not always that good at delivering.

I’m hoping that Ruger’s Marlins remove the “things not being right” issue.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240706/402bbafb9ee8e3c03e5249971ccf9f40.jpg

After having lived (or more apropos, returned to) in a ban state I have dug deeper into the GP Civilian rifle problem. I think that for defensive scenarios, barring foreign invaders (where let’s keep it real…your best bet is to acquire the attacker’s weaponry if that is on the menu) the meager capacity of most lever guns is probably sufficient. I do not think you can quickly reload a lever gun…I don’t think the CAS folks even do; they empty them, table them and press on to the next string.

We have a unique combination of wildlife (big cats, bears) here in the PNW and they’re mostly avoidant but when they’re not, it’s nice to have something adequate enough to repel their advance.

I use factory grade practice ammo (or bargain grade hunting ammo) in these and I carry either the Buffalo Bore loadings or the Hornady Lever Evolution rounds which I’m sure will work on 2 legged predators quite soundly. The Buffalo Bore ammo is more suited for critters but if downrange hazards weren’t a consideration, nobody wants a 300 grain hardcast slug in the sternum.

Practice with these guns is best done with a pair of them. That way they can cool in between strings. And I limit practice to about 200 rounds max (100 each). I zero the red dots to the carry load and I made a small label on a label maker that I put on the stock so I don’t forget the data. When I clean and inspect them, I check screws. I can imagine there is a good amount of thermal expansion with these, and the screws will relax/back out. So that needs seeing to.

The picture shows a Win 94AE in .44 Mag flanked by a Rossi R92 (left) and a Rossi R95, both in the Triple Black series. They’re fine guns…the LOP is too long for my taste, and even though I’m 6’4, I prefer a LOP in the neighborhood of 13” max. I’ve since changed the R92 (.357) stock to the Citadel Variant, which is plastic, shorter and weighs almost nothing. The R95 (which is a 336 Copy) now wears a Magpul EGL stock which is sufficiently short, functional and has the most genius carry method for spare ammo, like the Magpul backpacker stocks do for the 10/22 Takedown and the PCC.

The Mini-14 study/data is pending. I used one in an official capacity in the 90’s and I can see without reservation that the new versions with the new barrel are far superior. The 10 round mags aren’t as fast to reload as an M4, but honestly…10
Rounds? From a long gun? Get your hits and send the ten straight; as Ed Monk says, “You’ll probably be on your 3rd cigarette by the time the police arrive.”

Oh…the 94AE. It is a .44 Magnum. It has a youth stock (12.5” LOP). It wears an Heirloom precision red dot mount that ingeniously fits into the rear sight dovetail and the platform is low. I used the Sightmark MilSpec (IIRC) that Andy Larsen at Skinner sights uses and sells. I also have a Skinner Aperture rear sight on it. Without the optic (two screws…Docter pattern) I can see the irons again.

Interesting metric…this gun LOVES .44 Specials in the 200-240 grain range, and it doesn’t get nearly as hot as it does with magnums. If .44 Special was more widely available, I would shot lots more of it! Especially the 200 grain Gold Dot!

For the TLDR crowd, I think that for real world use, a civilian defender would be just fine with any of these for travel and general self protection duties. Don’t get into the weeds about storming the castle; that’s not what these are for. They’re a dream to carry and live with if you’re a sportsman and need a long gun. They carry more effectively because they were designed at a time where esthetics mattered, as well as balance. But yeah…there are trade offs.

And TLDR PART TWO
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240706/465dff8af800dd23e64d4bcd4851872a.jpg
18.5” barrel, 12.5” LOP Belgium Auto 5. #4 for hotels, 00 for dealing with Road Men. Classic, antiquated, and non-threatening to laypeople in all respects.

In all these considerations, you’re the weapon and the gun is the tool. I’d even recommend the Ruger 10/22 Take Down but I don’t want Tom Givens to kick me in the pants next time I see him.


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[Totem Polar]

For the TLDR crowd, I think that for real world use, a civilian defender would be just fine with any of these for travel and general self protection duties. Don’t get into the weeds about storming the castle; that’s not what these are for.

Oh hell yes. A great homecoming post from Sherm House.

:cool:

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Oh hell yes. A great homecoming post from Sherm House.

:cool:

Thank you Sir! I’m like 7/11…I’m always open, I’m just not always doing business.

We are sorta neighbors again (Skagit County)!


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[Totem Polar]

Thank you Sir! I’m like 7/11…I’m always open, I’m just not always doing business.

We are sorta neighbors again (Skagit County)!


I’ll look forward to eventually catching up in person, whether in Bham or the ‘kan.