Big ES in 45ACP and 45AR using 255gr SWC

[BKS]

I bought some 255gr SWC to use in my 45acp and 45auto rim.
I loaded the first rounds last night and shot them today. I loaded the acp with 3.5grs of Bullseye and the AR with 4.0grs.
Both bullets loaded to the crimp groove.
Shooting them thru the chronograph today they both averaged 680 +/- fps. But there were huge velocity variations on both loads. They both shot well. The revolver AR rounds had several cylinder fulls where there were 3-4 rounds cutting one hole at 15yards off hand.
I’m looking for any suggestions on lower the extreme spread.

I’m weighing each charge and using a Redding profile crimp die.

I know there is some room to increase the powder charge or change powders.

Does anyone have any experience with this combination that can offer some advice?

[BN]

Experiment with raising the muzzle before each shot to settle all of the powder against the primer and see what your ES is.

[03RN]

I responded to your thread at TOS.

Seat deeper. I'm surprised the acp rounds function. And try upping the charge.

[revchuck38]

Define “huge”.

You seated them to the crimp groove, but did you crimp the case mouth into the crimp groove? And least for the AR rounds, that should help.

[BKS]

150fps or more for 4 out of 12 shots.

I am going to experiment with more crimp and 03RNs suggestions

[revchuck38]

^^^^Yeah, that's huge. :cool:

[358156hp]

How's the accuracy?

[BKS]

These are just punching paper and hitting steel loads. At 15 yards shooting offhand I would have 2-3 rounds touching in each group. The accuracy potential is there. I only loaded and shot about 40 today.

[Malamute]

You may have difficulties if you crimp the case into the groove on 45 auto rounds since they headspace on the case mouth.


I loaded 100 rds of the Lyman 255/260 gr SWC Keith designed bullet (dont recall the mold number) in 45 auto way back. I seated them about the same length as normal loads so they fit in the magazine, the case mouth was just shy of the sharp shoulder. I taper crimped them. They ran fine for that 100 rds in an unmodified Colt Combat Commander. Small sample, but it was not unheard of to load that bullet in 45 auto then. I think the common load was around 6 grs Unique, but it may have been more, velocity was 850-900 fps or so according to the lore. Not many people had chronographs then. Not much of an answer to the extreme spread question, but Id guess a little more velocity and powder may help, and it doesnt cost that much to try some.

Edit: Found this, which ive seen before. It correlates the load info I recall. I think upping your charge may help some in the ES issue, and perhaps changing to a little slower powder thats bulkier may also.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Heavy%20Bullets%20in%20the%20.45%20ACP.pdf

[Frank500]

Malamute is correct! Add some appropriate slower burning powder like unique or power pistol. I think your extreme spreads are dangerous and I also would not shoot loads that anemic. Good chance they’ll bounce off the backstop.
I’ve shot lots of 250 grain in the 1911 close to and exceeding a 1000fps. Pretty good tool for large predator defense or hunting.

[03RN]

97414
That's how it should look

[revchuck38]

Malamute is correct! Add some appropriate slower burning powder like unique or power pistol. I think your extreme spreads are dangerous and I also would not shoot loads that anemic. Good chance they’ll bounce off the backstop.

While both the OP and I agree that those aren't good extreme spreads, those velocities don't qualify as "anemic". The power factor for his load is 173.4; the PF for a recent lot of Federal AE hardball was 172.5 from my 4" M22-4.

A couple of additional thoughts...are those bullets coated or uncoated? My .45 ACP autoloader handloads use a coated 230-grain RNL bullet and work fine in my bottomfeeders (1911s and M&P45s) but I can't make it through a cylinderful in the revolver without the last round disassembling itself. Those loads are taper crimped to (IIRC) .471". Uncoated bullets worked okay in the past, but coated bullets are apparently too slick. Having bullet length change would definitely mess up the ES. (My solution to this issue was to get some coated 225-grain coated RNFPs and crimp them in the crimp groove using the same Redding profile crimp die as the OP.)

If the bullets were seated to the crimp groove and then taper crimped, the case mouth and the case immediately below it would just be holding onto air rather than bullet. Seating them deeper as in 03RN's picture and using the same taper crimp would give the case mouth something to hang onto. It would also raise the pressure somewhat, though within safe levels. My Speer #3 manual shows loads from 6-8 grains of Unique under a 255-grain LSWC in a 1955 Target (now the M25-2). My old Lyman Cast Bullet Manual shows 4.5 grains of Bullseye under a 238-grain #452423 LSWC. Sierra's 5th Edition shows a max load of 5.4 grains of Bullseye under their 240-grain JHC in .45 AR brass. So there's a bit of leeway going up in pressure.

[Malamute]

While both the OP and I agree that those aren't good extreme spreads, those velocities don't qualify as "anemic". The power factor for his load is 173.4; the PF for a recent lot of Federal AE hardball was 172.5 from my 4" M22-4.

A couple of additional thoughts...are those bullets coated or uncoated? My .45 ACP autoloader handloads use a coated 230-grain RNL bullet and work fine in my bottomfeeders (1911s and M&P45s) but I can't make it through a cylinderful in the revolver without the last round disassembling itself. Those loads are taper crimped to (IIRC) .471". Uncoated bullets worked okay in the past, but coated bullets are apparently too slick. Having bullet length change would definitely mess up the ES. (My solution to this issue was to get some coated 225-grain coated RNFPs and crimp them in the crimp groove using the same Redding profile crimp die as the OP.)

If the bullets were seated to the crimp groove and then taper crimped, the case mouth and the case immediately below it would just be holding onto air rather than bullet. Seating them deeper as in 03RN's picture and using the same taper crimp would give the case mouth something to hang onto. It would also raise the pressure somewhat, though within safe levels. My Speer #3 manual shows loads from 6-8 grains of Unique under a 255-grain LSWC in a 1955 Target (now the M25-2). My old Lyman Cast Bullet Manual shows 4.5 grains of Bullseye under a 238-grain #452423 LSWC. Sierra's 5th Edition shows a max load of 5.4 grains of Bullseye under their 240-grain JHC in .45 AR brass. So there's a bit of leeway going up in pressure.

I agree on most points, but velocity in the 600s seems pretty wimpy to most of us that think in terms of field use and the commonly loaded velocities of this type bullet. The sedate old school 185 gr target swc loads are in the 700s fps range and generally considered pretty soft. Power factor isnt a measure most field shooters think of in comparing loads. Trajectory at that level would be fairly loopy if one wanted to reach out very far.

My loads with the 452424 bullets looked similar to 03RNs, a small amount of bullet shoulder exposed ahead of the case mouth. I seated them bit by bit until they cleared the magazine easily then a tiny bit more, and called it good. The OAL numbers meant little so long as they functioned in the magazine. There were no OAL figures to work with for those bullets that I knew of at the time, but they worked fine.

...and this all reminds me of how simple most revolver loading is. Seat to crimp groove, moderate to heavy roll crimp, drive on....

[BN]

I had to look in my old chrono records from 1988.

A bowling pin shooter made some bullets that were a H&G 68 nose with a longer body. They weighed 240 grains and I loaded 5.4 of 231 for an average velocity of 823 in my 5" 1911. 6 shots chronoed 813 low and 831 high.

[revchuck38]

Yeah, the trajectory would be pretty loopy…and a lot of the shooters here might fit that description too. :)

[358156hp]

I bought some 255gr SWC to use in my 45acp and 45auto rim.
I loaded the first rounds last night and shot them today. I loaded the acp with 3.5grs of Bullseye and the AR with 4.0grs.
Both bullets loaded to the crimp groove.
Shooting them thru the chronograph today they both averaged 680 +/- fps. But there were huge velocity variations on both loads. They both shot well. The revolver AR rounds had several cylinder fulls where there were 3-4 rounds cutting one hole at 15yards off hand.
I’m looking for any suggestions on lower the extreme spread.

I’m weighing each charge and using a Redding profile crimp die.

I know there is some room to increase the powder charge or change powders.

Does anyone have any experience with this combination that can offer some advice?

At this point I'd suggest ditching the Redding die. I really don't like them for cast bullets anyway because they can swage the bullet diameter down a bit, sort of like a LEE Factory Crimp Die, which I avoid as well. Consider using a taper crimp to preserve the relationship between the case mouth, and the end of the cylinders chamber. Do you have any pics you can post of the bullet design? Before I suggest juggling the seating depth it would be handy to see it. Also, Bullseye is a wonderful powder for 45 ACP, but I lean more towards slower burning powders as well. I'd suggest only making one change at a time and see how your groups are affected by each change. I used to load 255 gr Lyman 452190, a flat, round nose design for pins but ended up not sticking with it because of the recoil involved. I was using a book max. load of Unique to get more power, and (hopefully) soften the recoil impulse a bit. It was a heavy load, and as I've already mentioned, I ended up going back to 230 gr, and bought an LBT mould specifically for pins.

[BKS]

97457

[Jim Watson]

Strange, I went to Bullseye for .45 Minor - 200 gr coated + 3.5 gr Bull = 660 fps or so.
A lot of "so", my variation is greater than I like but less than yours and less than with other powders.