Trigger thought experiment (P320, P365 etc. vs SA only)

[wmu12071]

I was reading the thread on the P320 safety poll and went down a rabbit hole.

What makes a trigger system OK for carry? I have never read anyone that was excited about the Shadow 2 as a carry gun because of the lack of firing pin block (and weight) but that was the start of the thought for me, P320 vs Shadow 2. Both guns are very popular in competition but only the 320 seems to be talked about for carry. If we completely ignore the double action function on the Shadow 2 you could carry it cocked and locked. At that point you have a safety and a half cock notch before a bang. With the P320 what do you have? I am not a gunsmith and I did not jump in the deep end of firing pin block vs none or any of the other things that would make a trigger safe just things a laymen can see with the trigger pull gauge and a rough look at a tape measure. Below are some examples of guns in my safe with a quick pull on a crappy scale.

P365xl (closest I own to a P320) .5" throw 4.5lbs
P07 SA .5" throw 3.5 lbs
Shadow 2 .25" throw 2.5 lbs
1911 .125" throw 2.5 lbs
P226 .375" throw 4.5 lbs
P229 .375" throw 3.5 lbs

So I guess the question in my mind is what makes it ok to carry a P365 or P320 for some but they would not carry a cocked and locked Shadow 2, cocked P-series, or cocked but not locked P07? Is the one extra pound to make the P365 series or p320 series that much different then a P07 with the safety off?

Is it because the hammer fired guns where originally designed with decockers or safeties? Is there something I don't understand about the drop safety difference? Are we just assuming because a P320 (or any fully tensioned design) comes off the shelf like that its is good to go? Or is it the visual indication of potential energy of the external hammer? I'm not looking at this in terms of DBs "thinking mans trigger" just the concerns of having it in your holster and going about your life.

[JTQ]

I've always found this post from Ernest Langdon worth reading

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27185-Semi-Auto-Triggers-market-trends-choices-and-consequences

[RJ]

I'm not qualified to answer this question, but I'll add a couple more data points, since you included trigger weights.

I just received a Lyman digital, yesterday in fact, and spent a few minutes refreshing my trigger press data after owning a Wheeler analog for two or so years. Values below are 10 pull averages, taken with the gun resting on the bench, Lyman pulled straight back. On the P365, flat trigger, I placed the hook on the bottom 25% of the trigger. For the Springfield, I put it in the center.

Sig P365X FCU, in a Macro grip module, 875 rounds: 5.6 lbs
Springfield Garrison 1911 .45 ACP, 210 rounds: 5.1 lbs

I am interested in the discussion, however.

[Noah]

I think the fact that people would balk at the idea of carrying a P07/92/226 etc etc in SA is more of an indictment against the current flood of fully cocked single action striker fired guns with less and less pretravel. Considering all of those (DA/SA in SA and like a 320 etc) are a bit of light pretravel then a 3-5 lb break, the difference really is academic as long as they all have a robust firing pin block.

[gato naranja]

What makes a trigger system OK for carry?
...
I'm not looking at this in terms of DBs "thinking mans trigger" just the concerns of having it in your holster and going about your life.

My ideas on the subject have changed over the years, going through something akin to a cycle of "ignorance, carelessness, competence, paranoia." I know that probably sounds stupid, but increasing age and cumulative experience have kicked the props out of a lot of my beliefs/behaviors, firearms-related and otherwise.

In my younger days I had some firearms that had REALLY light, short trigger pulls, and that was a GOOD thing, right? Because accuracy, right? Besides, the faster you can get a shot off, the better, right? I may be a simpleton yet, but I just CRINGE when I look back.

[CraigS]

wmu I agree w/ your questions. "So I guess the question in my mind is what makes it ok to carry a P365 or P320 for some but they would not carry a cocked and locked Shadow 2, cocked P-series, or cocked but not locked P07? Is the one extra pound to make the P365 series or p320 series that much different then a P07 with the safety off?
For me it isn't OK. For me all the striker guns are in fact single action guns. Glocks 'safe action' is marketing BS.
15 years ago before LTT had come out w/ their great B92 trigger kits I was shooting my EliteII (D spring and a bit of DIY polishing) w/ my SIL who had just gotten a Glock34. He shot a mag through the G34 and offered me the second mag through the brand new gun. I was appalled. It was my first time shooting a striker gun of any type and my comment to him is it feels a lot like the SA trigger in my EII so who thinks this would be a good carry gun. It is a 34, not a 17, so maybe they have a lighter trigger since I think it is intended more for games than carry?? I don't know but it sure made me leary of all the striker guns especially since then all we hear from the manufacturers advertising is a lighter better trigger. Then in 2014 we moved from Md to Va so legal to carry. Wow, the weights of the plastic striker guns sure are nice. I got an M&P9compact and wife a Glock 19. For me both triggers were too light for carry. Mine got an Apex Duty/Carry kit and hers got a combination NY trigger spring and a 3.5 connector. Later I finally bought a trigger pull gauge and found both of our carry guns have about a 5.5# pull. For me the important part of those pulls is that the initial trigger movement until hitting the wall is much heavier than it was stock. We both shoot Beretta 92s in idpa and the LTT trigger kits give us a DA of 5# and SA of 3# or a few ounces less. But no way would I carry those guns. The HD 92s all have heavier hammer springs so SA more like 4# and DA 6#.

[wmu12071]

I've always found this post from Ernest Langdon worth reading

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27185-Semi-Auto-Triggers-market-trends-choices-and-consequences

That is a great thread, I have read it before and personally agree on the information. I was thinking more mechanically am I missing what makes a (fill in fully tensioned striker design) safer then a (fill in SA hammer gun). We seem to generally accept that decockers and safeties are required on SA hammer guns and in some cases (Shadow 2) still say they are range toys only but lots of people seem to have no issue with the fully tensioned striker and no safety. I just want to know if I am missing some feature or design improvement in the striker stuff or if people are just more complacent with newer designs.

[gato naranja]

We both shoot Beretta 92s in idpa and the LTT trigger kits give us a DA of 5# and SA of 3# or a few ounces less. But no way would I carry those guns. The HD 92s all have heavier hammer springs so SA more like 4# and DA 6#.

I "re-springed" a PX4 Subcompact down to where I thought it was just right, only to have to put a heavier spring back in after more use. The same thing also happened after I NP3'd the internals of another one. Fine for a range, but nothing I wanted for CCW.

"If a lot is good, too much is not better... it is just too much" definitely applies to lightening triggers.

[JTQ]

... but lots of people seem to have no issue with the fully tensioned striker ...
I don't think fully or not fully tensioned striker is the issue, at least for me.

It has more to do with the internal firing pin safeties and trigger travel.

When the PPQ came out, and probably the VP9, we had a bunch of guys smacking various striker fired guns, seeing if they could get strikers to drop or ignite primers. Other than something like the P99, that I think is fully decocked, the partially cocked strikers (Glock) had enough energy to ignite primers. The advantage Glock had/has is a more robust firing pin safety than some other guns.

As Ernest Langdon often mentions, I don't recall if it is in the thread I linked above, is it is the length of trigger travel, not the weight of trigger travel that keeps you out of trouble.

[wmu12071]

I don't think fully or not fully tensioned striker is the issue, at least for me.

It has more to do with the internal firing pin safeties and trigger travel.

When the PPQ came out, and probably the VP9, we had a bunch of guys smacking various striker fired guns, seeing if they could get strikers to drop or ignite primers. Other than something like the P99, that I think is fully decocked, the partially cocked strikers (Glock) had enough energy to ignite primers. The advantage Glock had/has is a more robust firing pin safety than some other guns.

As Ernest Langdon often mentions, I don't recall if it is in the thread I linked above, is it is the length of trigger travel, not the weight of trigger travel that keeps you out of trouble.

I agree with the length of travel thing in idea. One thing I have found when I start to push speed is that I started putting pressure on the DA triggers sooner trying to get part way through the travel so I wouldn't smack it. I have probably sent more rounds before I thought they would go off trying to get fast first shots with DA guns then striker or SA guns. That could be 100% just the way my body and brain work vs. another's.

[gato naranja]

As Ernest Langdon often mentions, I don't recall if it is in the thread I linked above, is it is the length of trigger travel, not the weight of trigger travel that keeps you out of trouble.

That was why I really took to the Beretta Nano when it came out, because I wanted that "J-frame pull" in a semiauto, but a lot of people freaked out over it. Heck, even I found it off-putting at times, only because it was so different than other semiautos.

[Clusterfrack]

Good thread. Thanks for starting it. Here are a few thoughts:
@BehindBlueI’s has good data on wins and losses in self-defense incidents, and failure to operate thumb safeties was among the reasons for losses. That's the primary reason I don't like or carry guns with a TS (cocked-and-locked or otherwise), and do not recommend them for new shooters interested in self-defense. Of course, with practice that concern can be mitigated.

I do not like short-travel triggers for defensive handguns.

I like having an external hammer or gadget to thumb when I holster or otherwise manipulate the gun.

Your comparison of the P-07 in SA to the 365 is interesting. Let's even the comparison by adding a heavy sear spring to a stock P-07 to bring the SA trigger pull to 4.5lbs. Why would we be comfortable carrying a 365 and not a cocked P-07 with no safety? (I have my own answer, but am curious to hear what others think.)




I was reading the thread on the P320 safety poll and went down a rabbit hole.

What makes a trigger system OK for carry? I have never read anyone that was excited about the Shadow 2 as a carry gun because of the lack of firing pin block (and weight) but that was the start of the thought for me, P320 vs Shadow 2. Both guns are very popular in competition but only the 320 seems to be talked about for carry. If we completely ignore the double action function on the Shadow 2 you could carry it cocked and locked. At that point you have a safety and a half cock notch before a bang. With the P320 what do you have? I am not a gunsmith and I did not jump in the deep end of firing pin block vs none or any of the other things that would make a trigger safe just things a laymen can see with the trigger pull gauge and a rough look at a tape measure. Below are some examples of guns in my safe with a quick pull on a crappy scale.

P365xl (closest I own to a P320) .5" throw 4.5lbs
P07 SA .5" throw 3.5 lbs
Shadow 2 .25" throw 2.5 lbs
1911 .125" throw 2.5 lbs
P226 .375" throw 4.5 lbs
P229 .375" throw 3.5 lbs

So I guess the question in my mind is what makes it ok to carry a P365 or P320 for some but they would not carry a cocked and locked Shadow 2, cocked P-series, or cocked but not locked P07? Is the one extra pound to make the P365 series or p320 series that much different then a P07 with the safety off?

Is it because the hammer fired guns where originally designed with decockers or safeties? Is there something I don't understand about the drop safety difference? Are we just assuming because a P320 (or any fully tensioned design) comes off the shelf like that its is good to go? Or is it the visual indication of potential energy of the external hammer? I'm not looking at this in terms of DBs "thinking mans trigger" just the concerns of having it in your holster and going about your life.

[wmu12071]

Your comparison of the P-07 in SA to the 365 is interesting. Let's even the comparison by adding a heavy sear spring to a stock P-07 to bring the SA trigger pull to 4.5lbs. Why would we be comfortable carrying a 365 and not a cocked P-07 with no safety? (I have my own answer, but am curious to hear what others think.)

This was my biggest question to others. I have and carry a P365xl. I love carrying it because it is super easy to carry and I shoot it well. I will not use one without a thumb safety. I question if this is intelligent or not for multiple reasons though.

[LockedBreech]

For me it isn't OK. For me all the striker guns are in fact single action guns. Glocks 'safe action' is marketing BS.


I have to take issue with this. Glocks are not cocked until the trigger is pulled. They aren't mechanically capable of firing until that trigger stroke primes the striker that last 2%. "Safe Action" is certainly marketing lingo, but the Glock is not single-action as it is not cocked/primed and ready to fire in its chambered state.

If you were saying that to you, it may as well be a single action gun in terms of how you weigh its relative safety, rather that stating that it is, in fact, a single action firearm, then disregard and apologies that I'm pedant.

[oldtexan]

I've always found this post from Ernest Langdon worth reading

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27185-Semi-Auto-Triggers-market-trends-choices-and-consequences

JTQ, thanks for bringing Mr. Langdon's excellent insights into this conversation.

This immediately reminded me of Mr. Bolke's similar thoughts on the matter: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot

[Noah]

Good thread. Thanks for starting it. Here are a few thoughts:
@BehindBlueI’s has good data on wins and losses in self-defense incidents, and failure to operate thumb safeties was among the reasons for losses. That's the primary reason I don't like or carry guns with a TS (cocked-and-locked or otherwise), and do not recommend them for new shooters interested in self-defense. Of course, with practice that concern can be mitigated.


I'm no longer personally OK with not having *a* way to block the action of the gun when reholstering as an emergency backup parachute to safe technique, when such options readily exist (hammer, SCD, or safety).

After going from M&P with no safety, to Beretta for the hammer as I became more safety conscious, to a Glock with an SCD since it was lighter to carry, then I just got tired of the Glock grip angle, and I wanted to make the M&P work with a thumb safety. But safeties have always made gripping the gun feel awful, to me, and take too much mental effort to use. Finally figured out why:

96966
96967

My physical range of motion in my right thumb is abysmal. So on top of the reasons you state, even with practice, a safety is a struggle for me. Thankfully, polymer frame DA/SA guns give me everything I want and then some, offering some additional margin on the draw as well.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

AD = accidental discharge = the gun going off without the trigger being pulled. This could be due to failure of an internal part that is under spring tension, dropping the gun, or the gun being impacted by a sudden external force.

ND = negilgent discharge = the trigger being pulled before the shooter wants it to be pulled. This could be due to an obstruction while reholstering, dropping/fumbling and catching the gun, an object getting inside the holster, getting on the trigger before the shooter is ready to fire, nervously fingering the trigger, etc.

When having these discussions I think it is very important to seperate AD's from ND's. Otherwise we just talk broadly about "the gun going off when you dont want it to" and the terminology can get confusing since sometimes someone makes a point about likelihood of an ND and someone else takes that as a point about AD's, and vice versa.

In my mind it is really two totally seperate discussions which each ought to be fully thought out independently, and only afterward the conclusions synthesized to make an intelligent decision about what platform is safe/smart to carry.

[Clusterfrack]

This was my biggest question to others. I have and carry a P365xl. I love carrying it because it is super easy to carry and I shoot it well. I will not use one without a thumb safety. I question if this is intelligent or not for multiple reasons though.

I hope it's ok if I post my response to your PM (with some additions).

I think the main reason is psychological. People get freaked out by the sight of a cocked hammer, but are ok with a fully-tensioned striker because 'out of sight=out of mind'. My GM friend and former USPSA team coach was a cop who carried a 1911 on duty. He told me that random citizens would frequently warn him, "your gun is cocked!" I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying a decocker P-07 with the hammer cocked, but really it's no more risky than carrying a p365.

I like the 365, despite my strong dislike of Sig and especially the 320 (which I used to own 4 of). I recommended the 365 to a friend as his first-ever firearm, and would carry one if there weren't other options I prefer. If I carried a 365, I would be MUCH more careful about holstering than I already am. In some cases, I would remove my holster before replacing the gun. I would use holsters that hold the gun much more tightly.

But I prefer a TDA/decocker, and fortunately the P-07 works better for me than any compact handgun I've tried. I also like Glocks, and sometimes carry a G26 with a Gadget. Objectively, these are 'safer' than a 365, but probably not in a major way. Maybe the safety difference is like driving a full-size Volvo vs a compact car?

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Speaking strictly about the S2 and its lack of firing pin block: that makes an AD more possible, but has no effect on NDs. IMO the likelihood of an AD with an S2 (or similar non FPB hammer guns) is very low, because for that to happen the firing pin has to have enough inertia to overcome the firing pin spring and also pierce a primer.
That situation is only going to happen when the gun is dropped in a direction that the inertia counteracts the firing pin spring, i.e. muzzle down 90 degrees or close to it. Even if you drop the S2 from high enough and it just happens to land muzzle down, the round is probably going into the floor. As far as guns going off when you dont want them to, shooting into the ground is the least bad direction in most situations.

By contrast, during the P320 "dropgate" tests, it was found the P320 could go off specifically when the muzzle was pointed up at about a 45 degree angle and the gun landed on the backplate area. This is the worst possible direction for an AD to occur, as it is when it is most likely to be pointing at a person standing in the room.

Other reports of striker AD's happen after impacts to the backplate, with forces that would be nowhere near enough inertia to cause an AD on a hammer fired gun.

Having said all that, I still wouldnt carry a hammer fired gun without a FPB, simply because that option does exist, and it does prevent a potential AD in that unlikely scenario described above.

[R_Shackleford]

I think like others have said, it's psychological. For some reason people have been convinced a striker fired gun is safer than a hammer fired gun that's cocked without a safety. I would say that if the striker fired gun has some sort of trigger blade safety, then it is slightly safer, but something like a P365 is no different than me carrying a cocked P2000. It just takes a little pressure on the trigger and the gun goes bang. That's my theory on the P320s that keep going off mysteriously. I don't own one but I do own a P365 and noticed how the trigger guard and trigger are nearly the same width, which could be a problem with a holster being narrower in the trigger area. My holster comes extremely close to rubbing the trigger, and since it has no safety, getting pushed back on the side of the trigger during re-holstering would make it go off, just like a cocked and unlocked hammer fired gun. Obviously a very short and light trigger, whether striker fired or hammer, would be more likely to ND.

Disclaimer: I prefer hammer fired guns but currently carry a P365, even though I try not to like Sig.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Following my above posts, I do want to say that I think the objective evidence shows that, excepting a few particular designs/models, the likelihood of getting a true AD with a modern, un-modified, high quality handgun approaches 0. That is a lot of caveats, but what I am trying to say is I could carry a fully cocked striker like an HK VP9 AIWB and be highly confident I will not suddenly find a gaping hole in my femoral artery with the gun still in the holster. I could also carry a CZ P07 cocked with no safety, and have a similarly high level of confidence in the same.
However, I carry a gun to begin with to prepare for situations that are very low odds, but very high stakes. Therefore, I choose to carry a truly decocked, firing-pin safety equipped handgun instead, knowing that reduces the likelihood of the above bad scenario from extremely low to 0. With a decocked weapon, there are no parts under spring tension that could possibly break or malfunction and fire the weapon, in any hypothetical scenario.

---------------------------------------------

The more interesting discussion is about ND's, and their relative likelihood with different trigger mechanisms. ND's are really hard to talk honestly about because every one of us is biased towards the belief that we are particularly skillful and conscious beings who rarely make mistakes. We especially do not see ourselves as the type of person who would make a very tiny mistake that would have life-destroying consequences. That sort of scenario does not fit in to the moralistic-narrative manner that our brains naturally use to understand ourselves and the world. Rather, we tend to believe that trivial mistakes lead to trivial consequences, and that severe consequences follow only from severe errors or malice.
Hence why phrases like "safety? The only safety you need is right here bud" (pointing at finger) sounds like a completely reasonable way of looking at things from the perspective of any normal person. Particularly any such person that does not have first hand knowledge of such attitudes leading to tragic ends.

For me, and I think this is something I picked up from another poster on this site, safety is a continuum rather than a binary. If the only guns that existed were SAO hammer guns with no safety, that is what I would carry, though maybe I wouldn't carry AIWB. Similarly, if SAO strikers were all that existed, I would carry those, though again maybe not AIWB. Since safer options do exist, I choose to carry those instead, and have no qualms about carrying them AIWB.

Also, if the only DA/SA guns on the market were steel framed, had rough/stagey trigger pulls, and no optics, then I probably would carry a plastic, striker fired, optic equipped pistol. The reality is there are plenty of good modern options to choose from at every level of that safety continuum. The only real tradeoffs with modern DA/SA guns are a couple hundred extra $$ paid upfront and a few oz heavier carry weight.

[CraigS]

I have to take issue with this. Glocks are not cocked until the trigger is pulled. They aren't mechanically capable of firing until that trigger stroke primes the striker that last 2%. "Safe Action" is certainly marketing lingo, but the Glock is not single-action as it is not cocked/primed and ready to fire in its chambered state.
If you were saying that to you, it may as well be a single action gun in terms of how you weigh its relative safety, rather that stating that it is, in fact, a single action firearm, then disregard and apologies that I'm pedant.

I can go with 'to me it may as well be single action'. When I read TTT's definition of AD vs ND I realize that I am mostly thinking about NDs. And since 92s, M&Pc, and Glock 19 (the guns I have had apart) all have firing pin blocks it seems an AD would be almost impossible. My concern is w/ NDs and mostly w/ the possibility of an ND if I ever actually need my gun in a defensive situation. I really enjoy these types of threads here. I know there are a lot of people here who have a lot more experience and expertise than I do so I get to learn. My post above gave some of my backround and one thing I have learned in messing w/ the B92s is that too light a trigger can cause me to have an ND at a match. A better term might be an unintended double tap. It has never been a safety concern as it occurs where I am very close to being on the target but just not quite there. I have gotten the SA pull down to 2.5# and realized that, for me at my level of skill, I want my trigger to be 3# and maybe 3# plus an oz or 3. For me w/ the carry guns, the draw is also much less ideal than the idpa rigs. So although the #s (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=s) are different, my idpa 'keep it at 3 or a little more' thinking, carries over to the carry guns. So I am much happier w/ the carry guns and the 5.5-6# trigger than I was w/ whatever they came with.

[JTQ]

Speaking strictly about the S2 and its lack of firing pin block: that makes an AD more possible, but has no effect on NDs. IMO the likelihood of an AD with an S2 (or similar non FPB hammer guns) is very low, because for that to happen the firing pin has to have enough inertia to overcome the firing pin spring and also pierce a primer.
That situation is only going to happen when the gun is dropped in a direction that the inertia counteracts the firing pin spring, i.e. muzzle down 90 degrees or close to it. Even if you drop the S2 from high enough and it just happens to land muzzle down, the round is probably going into the floor. As far as guns going off when you dont want them to, shooting into the ground is the least bad direction in most situations.

From two years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlreD_mVFc

[Noah]

For me, and I think this is something I picked up from another poster on this site, safety is a continuum rather than a binary. If the only guns that existed were SAO hammer guns with no safety, that is what I would carry, though maybe I wouldn't carry AIWB. Similarly, if SAO strikers were all that existed, I would carry those, though again maybe not AIWB. Since safer options do exist, I choose to carry those instead, and have no qualms about carrying them AIWB.

Also, if the only DA/SA guns on the market were steel framed, had rough/stagey trigger pulls, and no optics, then I probably would carry a plastic, striker fired, optic equipped pistol. The reality is there are plenty of good modern options to choose from at every level of that safety continuum. The only real tradeoffs with modern DA/SA guns are a couple hundred extra $$ paid upfront and a few oz heavier carry weight.

Great post that summarizes my own thoughts very well. I tell my buddy all the time, who carries a 320 and 365, that if a fully cocked single action was my only option, I'd carry it, but there are so many options I personally prefer, from a Glock, to a Glock with an SCD, to, even better, a hammer fired DA/SA.

The only rabbit trail I'll disagree with you on is AIWB- if I had to carry a 1911 with no safety (figuratively) I'd do it AIWB. With a holster with a wedge and the hip kick out technique, you never muzzle yourself and it is exponentially easier to visually clear the holster and maintain immediate control of anything getting tangled AIWB than 3-5 o clock.

[Sig_Fiend]

As Ernest Langdon often mentions, I don't recall if it is in the thread I linked above, is it is the length of trigger travel, not the weight of trigger travel that keeps you out of trouble.

This is precisely why I love the LEM so much. Increased length of pull, moderate weight, consistent for every shot.

The analogy I use is clutches in cars. SA and fully-cocked striker triggers are like unsprung race clutches. They tend to have little pedal travel and feedback. Many are practically on/off switches. That's cool on the track, but abusive and exhausting on the street.

Contrast that with a good DAO, or LEM-style pull. That's effectively like a good street car clutch. Something with more pedal travel and margin for error. It gives you enough feedback to get sporty when needed, or be more relaxed when you want.

[Noah]

RE: Glocks @LockedBreech


For me, the biggest thing with the Glock half cock system is how it allows for an extremely robust drop safety system, including the cruciform ledge shelf, and direct engagement of the "sear" of the trigger bar to the striker lug instead of a literal sear supported by sear spring pressure. As far as the actual trigger pull, I do like the less weightless take-up or the trustworthy options of a smooth but consistent DA like feel with a minus connector/NY spring type combo.

Add the SCD as a thing, and even though I prefer DA/SA, a Glock kinda stomps other striker fired designs for me. If manual safeties worked better for me ergonomically, that would change things a bit.

[JCN]

I think the main reason is psychological. People get freaked out by the sight of a cocked hammer, but are ok with a fully-tensioned striker because 'out of sight=out of mind'. My GM friend and former USPSA team coach was a cop who carried a 1911 on duty. He told me that random citizens would frequently warn him, "your gun is cocked!" I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying a decocker P-07 with the hammer cocked, but really it's no more risky than carrying a p365.

I have a lot of trigger time with P365s and DASA P01/75/Shadow 2s and I don’t think it’s psychological.

For me it is WORK (force over distance) that matters to me primarily.

A 3 pound trigger that needs a 1 cm of travel at that weight is different than a 3# revolver SA that 0.5mm at that weight trips the sear.

That’s the functional difference between the P365 and the P01/07 in SA. The amount of take up and travel is vastly different and the P365 has quite a long length at a tactile weight (maybe 1-2 pounds) before it gets to the wall. So it’s pretty apparent when you’re touching the trigger and moving it, giving you reaction time over the time / distance that the trigger pre travels in the P365 that isn’t present in the CZ.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

From two years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlreD_mVFc

Going solely off the youtube comments, and assuming they are correct: the situation was the gun was manually decocked, then the shooter missed the holster on "make ready" and the gun hit the ground.

My assumption is that it hit hammer first, as that would be the angle most likely to cause a fatal AD. With a fully decocked CZ, the hammer is resting on the firing pin, and I could see a strong force to the hammer transferring to the firing pin and touching off a round. The gun was not condition 0 like the OP was asking about.

Moreover, decocker CZ's decock to the half cock notch. One reason they do this is this leaves the hammer disconnected from the firing pin, with the hammer prevented from moving forward by the half cock notch which is a significant lip of metal. Carrying the gun in this was prevents exactly this type of AD, yet in USPSA you are required to fully decock so you don't have that feature. Again assuming my assumptions about what actually happened are correct.

[LockedBreech]

I can go with 'to me it may as well be single action'. When I read TTT's definition of AD vs ND I realize that I am mostly thinking about NDs. And since 92s, M&Pc, and Glock 19 (the guns I have had apart) all have firing pin blocks it seems an AD would be almost impossible. My concern is w/ NDs and mostly w/ the possibility of an ND if I ever actually need my gun in a defensive situation. I really enjoy these types of threads here. I know there are a lot of people here who have a lot more experience and expertise than I do so I get to learn. My post above gave some of my backround and one thing I have learned in messing w/ the B92s is that too light a trigger can cause me to have an ND at a match. A better term might be an unintended double tap. It has never been a safety concern as it occurs where I am very close to being on the target but just not quite there. I have gotten the SA pull down to 2.5# and realized that, for me at my level of skill, I want my trigger to be 3# and maybe 3# plus an oz or 3. For me w/ the carry guns, the draw is also much less ideal than the idpa rigs. So although the #s (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=s) are different, my idpa 'keep it at 3 or a little more' thinking, carries over to the carry guns. So I am much happier w/ the carry guns and the 5.5-6# trigger than I was w/ whatever they came with.

Makes total sense, I actually got rid of the HK VP9 because I didn't like how light and smooth the trigger was versus my Glock 17, so that clocks to me

Also this conversation reminded me of 5-6 years ago when I tried out a friend's pair of CZ-75s which had trigger work done by Cajun Gun Works, which is a very popular recommendation for CZs. I found the trigger pulls far, far too light for defensive work and had one of the "unintended double taps" you describe during my range session. I have some trouble carrying a gun with a trigger that light and smooth.

[Clusterfrack]

Makes total sense, I actually got rid of the HK VP9 because I didn't like how light and smooth the trigger was versus my Glock 17, so that clocks to me

Also this conversation reminded me of 5-6 years ago when I tried out a friend's pair of CZ-75s which had trigger work done by Cajun Gun Works, which is a very popular recommendation for CZs. I found the trigger pulls far, far too light for defensive work and had one of the "unintended double taps" you describe during my range session. I have some trouble carrying a gun with a trigger that light and smooth.

I agree--some triggers are too easy to pull. I am not a fan of CZ trigger jobs that involve flattening the sear interfaces. I played with a CZC P-01 that had such horizontal sear surfaces the trigger would not return if the SA pull was not completed (yikes).

One of the things I like about the P-07 is the ability to use heavier sear springs to set the SA pull somewhat independently from the DA weight.

[JCN]

Going solely off the youtube comments, and assuming they are correct: the situation was the gun was manually decocked, then the shooter missed the holster on "make ready" and the gun hit the ground.

My assumption is that it hit hammer first, as that would be the angle most likely to cause a fatal AD. With a fully decocked CZ, the hammer is resting on the firing pin, and I could see a strong force to the hammer transferring to the firing pin and touching off a round. The gun was not condition 0 like the OP was asking about.

Moreover, decocker CZ's decock to the half cock notch. One reason they do this is this leaves the hammer disconnected from the firing pin, with the hammer prevented from moving forward by the half cock notch which is a significant lip of metal. Carrying the gun in this was prevents exactly this type of AD, yet in USPSA you are required to fully decock so you don't have that feature. Again assuming my assumptions about what actually happened are correct.

It fell on the hammer and he had the extended firing pin and reduced power spring.

Those both contribute to popping primers.

[4RNR]

With a decocked weapon, there are no parts under spring tension that could possibly break or malfunction and fire the weapon, in any hypothetical scenario.



.

But for the weapon to fire in this scenario wouldn't internal safeties also need to malfunction or break at the same time? Ones that move/deactivate only when the trigger is pulled.

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[TicTacticalTimmy]

But for the weapon to fire in this scenario wouldn't internal safeties also need to malfunction or break at the same time? Ones that move/deactivate only when the trigger is pulled.

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Assuming it was a Shadow, or any other competition-focused CZ, they do not have the firing pin safety which all other modern CZ's have.

[4RNR]

Assuming it was a Shadow, or any other competition-focused CZ, they do not have the firing pin safety which all other modern CZ's have.I mean a standard unmodified quality firearm from your local gun store. Glock, HK, M&P, P10...

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[TicTacticalTimmy]

I thought you were asking about the specific situation in that video posted.

Yes, you could carry a non-competition CZ fully decocked and it shouldn't go off even if you slam it on the hammer. However, why would you carry it like that? If you are manually decocking, it is easier/safer to decock to the half cock notch. If you are using a model equipped with a decocker, it decocks to the half cock notch. One caveat to that is, if using an aftermarket extended firing pin, a force placed on the firing pin could dimple the primer even with a firing pin safety in place, but I've done my own testing on that and found it could not set off a Federal primer, which is again a total nonissue if you decock to half-cock. Again this whole discussion is a sidebar from the question in the OP which was the safety of a condition 0 hammer fired vs striker fired gun, and specifically referencing a Shadow 2 which has no firing pin block.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your question.

[Noah]

I mean a standard unmodified quality firearm from your local gun store. Glock, HK, M&P, P10...

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Sure, internal safeties would have to fail. In theory, all the striker fired pistols are immune from AD, but I'm sure people thought the same thing about the FNS and the 2014-2020 P320 as well. According to Sig's engineers, the original 320 was safe. As safe as a good modern pre cocked striker gun (IE S&W, HK, Walther, etc etc) is, a fully decocked hammer resting on a firing pin block that you can visually see is in place and not lifted like a Beretta is an order of magnitude more immune from a mechanical event causing a discharge.

Whether that increased level of security is necessary is an entirely personal choice. I'm not saying a well designed striker isn't "safe", but just from a mechanical design and stored energy standpoint, it is "less safe".

And thats all without even talking about the risk of "finger or object pulled the trigger" NDs and reholstering :D

[medmo]

I've always found this post from Ernest Langdon worth reading

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27185-Semi-Auto-Triggers-market-trends-choices-and-consequences

Great thread. Too bad things went south with a few folks and it was closed.

[wmu12071]

Thank you to everyone for the thoughts. As expected there were a lot of well thought out responses. I wish there was an equal to the P365 in size and capacity with a DA/SA or LEM trigger but I doubt the market is there for such a gun. I still can't intelligently defend my position but I would not be comfortable carrying a P320 but I will still carry my 365.

[Noah]

Thank you to everyone for the thoughts. As expected there were a lot of well thought out responses. I wish there was an equal to the P365 in size and capacity with a DA/SA or LEM trigger but I doubt the market is there for such a gun. I still can't intelligently defend my position but I would not be comfortable carrying a P320 but I will still carry my 365.

The closest you can get right now is a G43 or G43X with an SCD.

[Clusterfrack]

The closest you can get right now is a G43 or G43X with an SCD.

G26 is my solution.