View Full Version : Milwaukee Police to get new service weapons following accidental discharges & lawsuit
LittleLebowski
11-08-2022, 01:58 PM
https://wtmj.com/news/2022/10/31/milwaukee-police-to-get-new-service-weapons-following-accidental-discharges-lawsuit/
MILWAUKEE- Every single member of the Milwaukee Police Department that carries a service weapon will have their current model exchanged for a new one over the next several months.
The City of Milwaukee, MPD, and the Milwaukee Police Association held a press conference Monday afternoon in which they announced that the current Sig Sauer p320 will be swapped for a Glock model. Three members of the police department were accidentally shot and wounded after a holstered service weapon accidentally discharged. All the officers wounded are expected to make full recoveries.
“These unexplained discharges are a serious concern for our members and just as concerning for our members,” Milwaukee Police Chief Jeffrey Norman said.
The cost of the transition will be roughly $450,000. Funding for the transition will come from the MPD’s asset forfeiture fund as well as left over funding from the department’s last firearm transition.
Norman says transitioning service weapons isn’t as easy as swapping out one model for another.
“All parties involved need to agree on what the next move is,” Norman said. “We are a large agency and there are challenges within the bureaucracy, a lot of people need to make decisions on this.”
The transition is expected to take several months between the ordering of the new guns, the delivery of the new service weapons and the training of officers on how to use it. Norman says he expects the transition to be complete sometime in 2023.
During today’s announcement, Milwaukee Police Association President Andrew Wagner said his organization was planning on dropping its lawsuit against the city over the continued use of the Sig Sauer.
That sucks. It strange it seems isolated to the P320’s.
God knows there’s tons of 365’s out there.
2xAGM114
11-08-2022, 02:06 PM
I hope DoD is paying attention. We've sunk millions into the 320 variants.
CCT125US
11-08-2022, 02:11 PM
Not my story to tell, so I won't go into details. A friend of mine had his 320 discharge in it's holster. Video review showed no fault of the shooter.
Mitch
11-08-2022, 02:27 PM
That sucks. It strange it seems isolated to the P320’s.
God knows there’s tons of 365’s out there.
It does give me some hesitation carrying a 365, justified or not.
It does give me some hesitation carrying a 365, justified or not.
Depends on how many of these are legitimate mechanical discharges where the trigger wasn't touched (which has yet to be demonstrated by a 365) and just how many of these recent P320 LEO ADs are an object or finger in a tussle getting into the large mouth of the WML OWB holster and pulling the light short trigger with no trigger safety. I'm sure that's at least some of the ADs and a P365 doesn't fall far from the tree there, though a non wml holster close to the body and very safe re holstering practices will help you a lot.
Polecat
11-08-2022, 02:51 PM
It’s an overly complicated design, should just quietly let it die and use the P365 FCU and design.
Really stupid question- how much would a mechanical safety help with these discharges? Any at all? Asking as someone carrying a P320 and P365 regularly (but with a safety)
Really stupid question- how much would a mechanical safety help with these discharges? Any at all? Asking as someone carrying a P320 and P365 regularly (but with a safety)
See my post above- it would depend on how many are discharges from something touching the trigger in the large WML holster, and how many are true and blue mechanical discharges. Both have happened with the 320.
A safety helps a lot with #1. But the safety does not affect the zero trigger contact discharges of 2014-2019 P320s. See the 50 page P320 lawsuit thread for great info.
It’s an overly complicated design, should just quietly let it die and use the P365 FCU and design.
They can't. They've signed too many contracts with too many slow-moving bureaucracies to "quietly let it die." The product is writ in stone now. It'll get the full-on SA-80 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80) treatment if it has to.
They can't. They've signed too many contracts with too many slow-moving bureaucracies to "quietly let it die." The product is writ in stone now. It'll get the full-on SA-80 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80) treatment if it has to.
So true.
Texaspoff
11-08-2022, 03:52 PM
Not my story to tell, so I won't go into details. A friend of mine had his 320 discharge in it's holster. Video review showed no fault of the shooter.
Please post the video. I'm not being abrasive in any way, I really want to see the video. The problem is, unlike the drop fire issue where it was easily repeatable and numerous videos made, not one single viable and credible video has surfaced of a 320 sitting in a holster, firing by itself with no outside influences.
With so many 320 in circulation in the competition circuit, why hasn't a video shown up? I familiar with the youtuber and his video of the aftermath of his supposed "fired on it's own" event that occurred in 2019, but I'm talking about seeing the event actually happen. I can tear up a pair of pants and claim anything I want happened as well.
I would just like irrefutable proof that the 320 does in fact have a problem, before I condemn the platform.
TXPO
Navin Johnson
11-08-2022, 05:05 PM
There is no irrefutable truths unless the accused admits to it. Anybody could argue there was something in the holster and It got jiggled and pulled the trigger or that it’s a doctored video.
Even then many who don’t wanna believe it won’t believe it. We live in a world of videos so we think that’s the only truth and we don’t trust expert witnesses or people with great credibility because we didn’t see it.
Myself and a friend witnessed a coach videotaping girls inappropriately we brought the entire team together and explained what we saw. many would not believe us until they saw the video that we had taken of him doing it. we both had extensive backgrounds in sports coaching and our daughters had been members of this team for a number of years. The worst part about it was after showing the video to some of the parents they continue to send their kids to be coached by him.
Because of the attitude of “ if there isn’t video it didn’t happen” I’m not sure we could’ve got the team to leave this coach had we not had video. One of the most fucked up things I’ve ever seen.
LockedBreech
11-08-2022, 05:39 PM
The reason I am selling my M17-B and will not further invest in the P320 platform even though I really like how mine shoots is simple: maybe it's nothing. But maybe it is. And when I have multiple entire series of Glock, M&P, Beretta, HK, and CZ pistols available to me that for certain do not have this going on, I could not justify exposing my lady, cat, and neighbors to the potential risk.
My assessment of risk would be very different if there was no option. Driving a car is a great example. Statistically a lot more likely to kill me than almost anything. But I have to do it, so I buckle up, drive defensively, have a tough Subaru with good crash ratings, etc.
But there are options. Lots of options. In that frame of reference, I can no longer justify or countenance the P320.
boing
11-08-2022, 05:53 PM
I know there’s no small amount of apocrypha around the transition to Glocks back in the day, but could you have believed 20 years ago that Glock would be the safe harbor against ADs that any agency would retreat to?
It does give me some hesitation carrying a 365, justified or not.
Depends on how many of these are legitimate mechanical discharges where the trigger wasn't touched (which has yet to be demonstrated by a 365) and just how many of these recent P320 LEO ADs are an object or finger in a tussle getting into the large mouth of the WML OWB holster and pulling the light short trigger with no trigger safety. I'm sure that's at least some of the ADs and a P365 doesn't fall far from the tree there, though a non wml holster close to the body and very safe re holstering practices will help you a lot.
That sucks. It strange it seems isolated to the P320’s.
God knows there’s tons of 365’s out there.
It’s not “strange” at all.
The P365 series is not simply a “shrunken P320.” It uses a completely different design. The most significant differences being the FCU body uses a machined casting rather than stamped sheet metal and the 365 uses a conventional striker / firing pin safety design vs the unique one in the 320. In other words the 365 and 320 use different striker safety designs.
There are over a million P365 series guns in circulation and there have be ZERO mechanical “accidental” discharges.
Facts over feelings.
Please post the video. I'm not being abrasive in any way, I really want to see the video. The problem is, unlike the drop fire issue where it was easily repeatable and numerous videos made, not one single viable and credible video has surfaced of a 320 sitting in a holster, firing by itself with no outside influences.
With so many 320 in circulation in the competition circuit, why hasn't a video shown up? I familiar with the youtuber and his video of the aftermath of his supposed "fired on it's own" event that occurred in 2019, but I'm talking about seeing the event actually happen. I can tear up a pair of pants and claim anything I want happened as well.
I would just like irrefutable proof that the 320 does in fact have a problem, before I condemn the platform.
TXPO
This ^^^.
I was one of the first people talking about potential issues with the P320 prior to the CT SWAT lawsuit and the Omaha Outdoors video. Early 320s have real issues with impacts, sometimes even relatively minor impacts.
However there are zero validated examples of 320s “just going off in the holster”
Maybe I’m just jaded but for every validated AD with a 320 we’ve seen 5 or 10 negligent (operator error) discharges blamed on the gun. There is a lot of weird circumstances surrounding these issues such as the recent released “my 320 just went off at a match” video which actually occurred in 2019 etc..
The 320 is not the first fully tensioned striker gun to have AD/ND issues (e.g. the FN FNS) but all have involved impacts to include impacts while holstered.
They can't. They've signed too many contracts with too many slow-moving bureaucracies to "quietly let it die." The product is writ in stone now. It'll get the full-on SA-80 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80) treatment if it has to.
Whether the prior issues with the P320 have been fixed or not, this ^^^ is true. Too many guns and too many contracts to turn the titanic now.
https://youtu.be/YyvHqYu_KXI
It’s not “strange” at all.
The P365 series is not simply a “shrunken P320.” It uses a completely different design. The most significant differences being the FCU body uses a machined casting rather than stamped sheet metal and the 365 uses a conventional striker / firing pin safety design vs the unique one in the 320. In other words the 365 and 320 use different striker safety designs.
There are over a million P365 series guns in circulation and there have be ZERO mechanical “accidental” discharges.
Facts over feelings.
I was specifically referring to the similarity of the P365 and P320 in regards to operator and foreign object induced ADs, not saying the 365 had demonstrated any risk of a mechanical AD without a trigger pull. I think thr move to a more traditional firing pin block was a plus.
JonInWA
11-08-2022, 08:17 PM
I'll also add that to the best of my knowledge the P320 "uncommanded discharge" issues have all had to do with pre-June 2019 production P320s. HCM or Lwt16 can probably answer more authoritatively, but my thoughts are that the revised sear/sear spring retention method and the other spring that was eliminated have effectively resolved the concern-of course, assuming that effective manufacturing techniques and protocols (including pre-market stream QC) are followed.
Best, Jon
jnc36rcpd
11-08-2022, 08:36 PM
This ^^^.
I was one of the first people talking about potential issues with the P320 prior to the CT SWAT lawsuit and the Omaha Outdoors video. Early 320s have real issues with impacts, sometimes even relatively minor impacts.
However there are zero validated examples of 320s “just going off in the holster”
Maybe I’m just jaded but for every validated AD with a 320 we’ve seen 5 or 10 negligent (operator error) discharges blamed on the gun. There is a lot of weird circumstances surrounding these issues such as the recent released “my 320 just went off at a match” video which actually occurred in 2019 etc..
The 320 is not the first fully tensioned striker gun to have AD/ND issues (e.g. the FN FNS) but all have involved impacts to include impacts while holstered.
There were rumors of uncommanded discharges with the FN FNS. The only one I found with certainty was a holstered discharge in a Baltimore County Police station that was filmed and I believe witnessed. While I don't know the results of the BCoPolice investigation, there was some thought something may have entered the officer's holster and pulled the trigger.
After I left, my former department had an uncommanded discharge in a locker room. I don't have the details, but one opinion was that the officer had reloaded the weapon and had the discharge during a press check. Of course, that could have been operator error.
I was specifically referring to the similarity of the P365 and P320 in regards to operator and foreign object induced ADs, not saying the 365 had demonstrated any risk of a mechanical AD without a trigger pull. I think thr move to a more traditional firing pin block was a plus.
The foreign object risk with the 320 or 365 is no different than all the the striker guns from Glock, S&W, HK, Walther, FN, Beretta. CZ, Canik, HS produkt etc
There were rumors of uncommanded discharges with the FN FNS. The only one I found with certainty was a holstered discharge in a Baltimore County Police station that was filmed and I believe witnessed. While I don't know the results of the BCoPolice investigation, there was some thought something may have entered the officer's holster and pulled the trigger.
After I left, my former department had an uncommanded discharge in a locker room. I don't have the details, but one opinion was that the officer had reloaded the weapon and had the discharge during a press check. Of course, that could have been operator error.
AFAIK the Baltimore county FNS in holster discharge was on video but it involved an impact. The officer had his hands full with a box of evidence. While juggaking the box and the door he hip checked his holstered gun into the steel door frame.
As documented elsewhere here on PF, AZ DPS was able to induce AD’s in FNS pistols via impact as well.
One thing I can tell you is that that issue has been fixed and it’s not a problem with the current FN 509.
It’s not “strange” at all.
The P365 series is not simply a “shrunken P320.” It uses a completely different design. The most significant differences being the FCU body uses a machined casting rather than stamped sheet metal and the 365 uses a conventional striker / firing pin safety design vs the unique one in the 320. In other words the 365 and 320 use different striker safety designs.
There are over a million P365 series guns in circulation and there have be ZERO mechanical “accidental” discharges.
Facts over feelings.
Well and partially that’s what I’m getting at.
How do you have a million of one gun and not know how to make it safe in another?
I did not know the subtle differences in the FCU or ETA: striker design.
Well and partially that’s what I’m getting at.
How do you have a million of one gun and not know how to make it safe in another?
I did not know the subtle differences in the FCU or ETA: striker design.
Easy - the 320 came first and it was derived adapted from the P250.
The 365 was the beneficiary of the lessons learned from the 320.
SIG is constrained by their success with the existing 320 architecture.
I’ve been posting for a couple years now that the 365 is a better design and in a perfect world SIG would have scrapped the 320 and introduced a scaled up P365XL as the P320 2.0. I also said that would never happen because of SIGs P320 contracts.
The Macro is not quite a 320 2.0 but I think it’s as close as we are likely to see.
Sig_Fiend
11-09-2022, 01:15 AM
The P365 also uses a more conventional style of:
Firing pin safety and coil spring
Firing pin design like a Glock
Sear using a single elbow spring
The firing pin and the plastic housing function effectively like a Glock striker, except for the fully-tensioned design of the P365. Apparently the striker return spring is no longer present in new P365's and was replaced with a striker that has a beveled tip to serve the same purpose, but I don't have further details on that.
The sear spring is a single elbow spring and is mounted in what appears to be a pretty foolproof design. That as opposed to the P320 dual coil springs which can create serious problems if not assembled properly. The P320 sear springs are also very small, and I'd speculate not nearly as durable as the P365 sear spring.
As far as the FPS, it's a block with a coil spring and moves linearly. This is the style that nearly all service grade, reputable pistols utilize. The P320 has an FPS that's a lever arm with elbow spring and moves in an arc. Maybe this doesn't matter but, it's out of the ordinary and one more question mark for a platform that already has too many.
Here's a rigged up image I made of the P365 striker and FPS components (LEFT), and the P320 equivalents (RIGHT):
96866 96867
Easy - the 320 came first and it was derived adapted from the P250.
The 365 was the beneficiary of the lessons learned from the 320.
SIG is constrained by their success with the existing 320 architecture.
I’ve been posting for a couple years now that the 365 is a better design and in a perfect world SIG would have scrapped the 320 and introduced a scaled up P365XL as the P320 2.0. I also said that would never happen because of SIGs P320 contracts.
The Macro is not quite a 320 2.0 but I think it’s as close as we are likely to see.
You are someone whose opinion I highly respect. Would you feel comfortable carrying/competing with a (commercial) M18, for example? Just looking for re-assurance here I think :D. My main concern is the “I didn’t touch the gun” or the “I lightly tapped the rear of the slide” type AD as discussed ITT.
jnc36rcpd
11-09-2022, 02:14 AM
AFAIK the Baltimore county FNS in holster discharge was on video but it involved an impact. The officer had his hands full with a box of evidence. While juggaking the box and the door he hip checked his holstered gun into the steel door frame.
As documented elsewhere here on PF, AZ DPS was able to induce AD’s in FNS pistols via impact as well.
One thing I can tell you is that that issue has been fixed and it’s not a problem with the current FN 509.
I knew the officer had his hands full which helped reduce any suspicion he had manipulated the pistol, but did not know he had banged the weapon against a door frame. Of course, given the number of times I've banged pistols, radios, Tasers, and so forth into door frames, that doesn't much reassure me about the weapon.
That said, I'll remark again that, while I thought the FNS was garbage, FN did its best to remedy the issues and seemed to finally achieve that goal with our guns. While I've never shot an FN-509, I'm sure it's a much better product than the FNS.
Texaspoff
11-09-2022, 08:06 AM
The P365 also uses a more conventional style of:
Firing pin safety and coil spring
Firing pin design like a Glock
Sear using a single elbow spring
The firing pin and the plastic housing function effectively like a Glock striker, except for the fully-tensioned design of the P365. Apparently the striker return spring is no longer present in new P365's and was replaced with a striker that has a beveled tip to serve the same purpose, but I don't have further details on that.
The sear spring is a single elbow spring and is mounted in what appears to be a pretty foolproof design. That as opposed to the P320 dual coil springs which can create serious problems if not assembled properly. The P320 sear springs are also very small, and I'd speculate not nearly as durable as the P365 sear spring.
As far as the FPS, it's a block with a coil spring and moves linearly. This is the style that nearly all service grade, reputable pistols utilize. The P320 has an FPS that's a lever arm with elbow spring and moves in an arc. Maybe this doesn't matter but, it's out of the ordinary and one more question mark for a platform that already has too many.
Here's a rigged up image I made of the P365 striker and FPS components (LEFT), and the P320 equivalents (RIGHT):
96866 96867
I agree completely, the 320's striker assembly design has always seemed a bit overcomplicated, and not as robust as other designs including the 365. It would make sense as well, since the 320 was SIG first shot at a striker design, and the 365's design seems to have been designed based on what was learned from the 320.
TXPO
Bucky
11-09-2022, 08:21 AM
The 320 is not the first fully tensioned striker gun to have AD/ND issues (e.g. the FN FNS) but all have involved impacts to include impacts while holstered.
Still, I hope we are all in agreement that a gun should not discharge in a holster even if there was some kind of impact. I’m sure we all know, holstered handguns get bumped a bit.
Texaspoff
11-09-2022, 08:23 AM
Still, I hope we are all in agreement that a gun should not discharge in a holster even if there was some kind of impact. I’m sure we all know, holstered handguns get bumped a bit.
Well then what fun would that be carrying a pistol around all day. :)
TXPO
claymore504
11-09-2022, 08:48 AM
The foreign object risk with the 320 or 365 is no different than all the the striker guns from Glock, S&W, HK, Walther, FN, Beretta. CZ, Canik, HS produkt etc
I have to disagree with this somewhat. Mainly with the P320. The distance required for the trigger shoe to travel and fire on the P320 is very short and made shorter with some aftermarket triggers. Plus there is no trigger shoe saftey. i think there is a much higher risk of foreign object setting off a P320 trigger than a Glock, M&P, CZ P10, Walther and so on. I think a manual safety is a very good idea on the P320 due to this.
You are someone whose opinion I highly respect. Would you feel comfortable carrying/competing with a (commercial) M18, for example? Just looking for re-assurance here I think :D. My main concern is the “I didn’t touch the gun” or the “I lightly tapped the rear of the slide” type AD as discussed ITT.
Post June 2019 manufacture - yes.
I currently have several commercial 320s the one remaining pre 2019 gun is essentially a dedicated dry fire gun.
if doing high volume dryfire include those reps in your spring replacement schedule.
Part Replacement Schedule, Operator Performed:
Recoil Spring:
(a) Full Size: 10,000 rounds fired.
(b) Compact: 5,000 rounds fired.
(c) Sub-Compact: 5,000 rounds fired.
Magazine Spring: When the magazine fails to lock the slide open.
Barrel: If the pistol exhibits key-holing or unacceptable accuracy.
Parts Replacement Schedule, Armorer Performed:
Extractor Spring: 20,000 rounds fired.
Extractor: 20,000 rounds fired.
Striker Assembly: 20,000 rounds fired.
Takedown lever: 20,000 rounds fired.
Slide Catch Lever: 10,000 rounds fired.
Slide Catch Lever Spring: 10,000 rounds fired.
Slide Catch Lever Post: 10,000 rounds fired.
Trigger Bar Spring: 10,000 rounds fired.
medmo
11-09-2022, 09:01 AM
Here is an article that I found interesting.
https://www.wisn.com/article/mpd-guns-fired-on-their-own-twice-in-6-months/38097781
I have to disagree with this somewhat. Mainly with the P320. The distance required for the trigger shoe to travel and fire on the P320 is very short and made shorter with some aftermarket triggers. Plus there is no trigger shoe saftey. i think there is a much higher risk of foreign object setting off a P320 trigger than a Glock, M&P, CZ P10, Walther and so on. I think a manual safety is a very good idea on the P320 due to this.
The tab safety on the trigger you reference is an inertia drop safety. It is not there for foreign objects. Whether on pistols or newer hunting rifles, the tab safety is to physically block the trigger from moving via inertia if the gun is dropped or otherwise impacted. The 320 doesn’t have one because the trigger bar of the 320 moves in the opposite direction of most striker guns so a tab safety on the trigger would not actually do anything on a 320.
A manual safety would be the answer to foreign object concerns on the 320.
Here is an article that I found interesting.
https://www.wisn.com/article/mpd-guns-fired-on-their-own-twice-in-6-months/38097781
There have been multiple examples of Glocks being fired in the holster due to foreign objects getting into the trigger guard, particularly with wide mouth duty holsters made to accommodate weapons mounted lights.
In particular one Glock in holster shot involved an elementary school student sticking their finger into the trigger guard of a holstered WML equipped Glock while the officer was reading to the kids via a DARE type program.
If you look in the LE UOF thread here there is a video of a disorderly suspect being restrained at a stadium who gets his finger into the holster of an officers holstered WML equipment Glock.
The Streamlight TLR 9 which uses inline batteries to allow smaller holster mouths rather than the side by side batteries which necessitate wide holster mouths was a direct response to these issues.
Still, I hope we are all in agreement that a gun should not discharge in a holster even if there was some kind of impact. I’m sure we all know, holstered handguns get bumped a bit.
Of course.
But multiple fully tensioned striker guns (early P320, VP9, PPQ, FN FMS) have had potential impact issues and those issues can be replicated.
The “virgin” ADs where holstered guns allegedly spontaneously discharge in the holster without any stimuli cannot be replicated.
DocGKR
11-09-2022, 09:38 AM
320 is as flawed design. There have been multiple unintended, accidental (ie. not negligent) discharges of these pistols without manipulation of the trigger, including post 2019 variants--primarily with impacts of the holster against a hard objects (ex. vehicles, building structure, furniture, ground, etc...). There are better service weapon choices available.
320 is as flawed design. There have been multiple unintended, accidental (ie. not negligent) discharges of these pistols without manipulation of the trigger, including post 2019 variants--primarily with impacts of the holster against a hard objects (ex. vehicles, building structure, furniture, ground, etc...). There are better service weapon choices available.
I’d like to see documented examples of post 2019 320 no manipulation discharges. The Canadian SOF one was ultimately disproven.
While there are real issues with pre 2019 guns, including those which went thorough SIG’s “upgrade.” There is a lot of apocryphal BS and false claims around the 320. For example - there are numerous lawsuits which are simply “copy and paste” of the July 2020 NH lawsuit. In addition to the July 2020, New Hampshire lawsuit being dismissed, the filing listed multiple instances of 320s going off, some of which were actual uncommanded discharges but most of which were operator error negligent discharges in which the trigger was pulled.
Every no manipulation on commanded discharge which I have been able to validate has involved a pre-2019 gun wether in original form or upgraded form.
Going back to the frequently, copied 2020, New Hampshire lawsuit list, two of the examples in that list, which the plaintiff alleged were uncommanded, no manipulation discharges involved members of my agency. Both of those instances were operator, induced negligent, discharges, where the trigger was pulled. In one instance, the operator acknowledged pulling the trigger in the other. The operator filed his own walk again today, despite the fact that he was witnessed pulling the trigger and examination of the gun, both by SIG and our agency revealed zero defects with the gun.
If I were king for a day, I would issue generation five Glocks with striker control devices, direct miles for Aimpoint P-2 ACROs. But that doesn’t mean there is not a tremendous amount of false information surrounding the current, post June 2019 iteration of P320.
Texaspoff
11-09-2022, 10:18 AM
I’d like to see documented examples of post 2019 320 no manipulation discharges. The Canadian SOF one was ultimately disproven.
While there are real issues with pre 2019 guns, including those which went thorough SIG’s “upgrade.” There is a lot of apocryphal BS and false claims around the 320. For example - there are numerous lawsuits which are simply “copy and paste” of the July 2020 NH lawsuit. In addition to the July 2020, New Hampshire lawsuit being dismissed, the filing listed multiple instances of 320s going off, some of which were actual uncommanded discharges but most of which were operator error negligent discharges in which the trigger was pulled.
Every no manipulation on commanded discharge which I have been able to validate has involved a pre-2019 gun wether in original form or upgraded form.
Going back to the frequently, copied 2020, New Hampshire lawsuit list, two of the examples in that list, which the plaintiff alleged were uncommanded, no manipulation discharges involved members of my agency. Both of those instances were operator, induced negligent, discharges, where the trigger was pulled. In one instance, the operator acknowledged pulling the trigger in the other. The operator filed his own walk again today, despite the fact that he was witnessed pulling the trigger and examination of the gun, both by SIG and our agency revealed zero defects with the gun.
If I were king for a day, I would issue generation five Glocks with striker control devices, direct miles for Aimpoint P-2 ACROs. But that doesn’t mean there is not a tremendous amount of false information surrounding the current, post June 2019 iteration of P320.
Agreed, lots of folks are saying the design is flawed, yet no one can present any definitive proof of said flaws. As you stated it is typically regurgitated from some other posting or article, again where no definitive proof is provided. The drop fire issue was real and was able to be replicated and proven without a doubt.
TXPO
GlockenSpiel
11-09-2022, 10:32 AM
The tab safety on the trigger you reference is an inertia drop safety. It is not there for foreign objects. Whether on pistols or newer hunting rifles, the tab safety is to physically block the trigger from moving via inertia if the gun is dropped or otherwise impacted. The 320 doesn’t have one because the trigger bar of the 320 moves in the opposite direction of most striker guns so a tab safety on the trigger would not actually do anything on a 320.
That (in bold) is definitely not the case, as Sig found out from the guns firing when dropped. The inertia of the trigger when dropped was sufficient to cause the gun to fire, even if the trigger bar itself moves forward. A trigger tab safety would have prevented that from the beginning. A trigger safety on the 320 was for a time an option, and may still be.
I tend to think trigger safeties mitigate the shirt-tail-in-holster type of ND, in that a shirt tail is more likely to just bind between the side of the trigger and the inside of the holster. The trigger safety means that a foreign object must at least press against the very center of the trigger, not just pull it from the side. I have never seen confirmation from Glock or other manufacturers that this is an intentional design choice, but it is at least an unintended benefit of a trigger safety.
That (in bold) is definitely not the case, as Sig found out from the guns firing when dropped. The inertia of the trigger when dropped was sufficient to cause the gun to fire, even if the trigger bar itself moves forward. A trigger tab safety would have prevented that from the beginning. A trigger safety on the 320 was for a time an option, and may still be.
I tend to think trigger safeties mitigate the shirt-tail-in-holster type of ND, in that a shirt tail is more likely to just bind between the side of the trigger and the inside of the holster. The trigger safety means that a foreign object must at least press against the very center of the trigger, not just pull it from the side. I have never seen confirmation from Glock or other manufacturers that this is an intentional design choice, but it is at least an unintended benefit of a trigger safety.
No, that is the case. Why do you think SIG, Apex Tactical, and Gray Guns solutions to the inertia drop issue was to lighten the trigger rather than going to a tab safety?
Read this again: the trigger bar of the 320 moves in the OPPOSITE direction of most other striker guns. Hence what SIG found out when 320s started going off when dropped was they needed to reduce the mass of the trigger thereby reducing the inertia produced via a given drop.
If a tab safety trigger was the solution both SIG and the aftermarket would be making them and they would be on every issued 320/M17/M18. Yet, they are not. That is a clue.
SIG did in fact design a tab safety and offer it as an option for institutional sales when the 320 was first released prior to the whole drop gate thing. The only ones who ever got any outside the factory were the Guatemalan National Police. You know why? Because SIG knows the tab safety does nothing with regard to inertia issues. SIG developed the tab safety to help sell 320s to agencies using Glocks whose chiefs /admin people making purchasing decisions who “expected” a tab safety because that was what was on their Glocks and would either be uninterested or too stupid to understand why they were irrelevant on the 320.
I have no particular issue with tab trigger safeties on guns like Glocks or Savage /Ruger bolt guns where they actually prevent inertia related issues.
The tan safety preventing edge of the trigger issues is such low probability as to be ridiculous. If foreign objects are a concern a manual safety is the answer.
If I used a 320 with a lighter aftermarket trigger such as an Apex or gray guns trigger for anything other than a pure range toy I would want a manual safety.
The last “shirt tail” ND we had at work involved …. A stock Glock 26 with a stick tab safety trigger.
GlockenSpiel
11-09-2022, 12:27 PM
No, that is the case. Why do you think SIG, Apex Tactical, and Gray Guns solutions to the inertia drop issue was to lighten the trigger rather than going to a tab safety?
Read this again: the trigger bar of the 320 moves in the OPPOSITE direction of most other striker guns. Hence what SIG found out when 320s started going off when dropped was they needed to reduce the mass of the trigger thereby reducing the inertia produced via a given drop.
If a tab safety trigger was the solution both SIG and the aftermarket would be making them and they would be on every issued 320/M17/M18. Yet, they are not. That is a clue.
SIG did in fact design a tab safety and offer it as an option for institutional sales when the 320 was first released prior to the whole drop gate thing. The only ones who ever got any outside the factory were the Guatemalan National Police. You know why? Because SIG knows the tab safety does nothing with regard to inertia issues. SIG developed the tab safety to help sell 320s to agencies using Glocks whose chiefs /admin people making purchasing decisions who “expected” a tab safety because that was what was on their Glocks and would either be uninterested or too stupid to understand why they were irrelevant on the 320.
I have no particular issue with tab trigger safeties on guns like Glocks or Savage /Ruger bolt guns where they actually prevent inertia related issues.
The tan safety preventing edge of the trigger issues is such low probability as to be ridiculous. If foreign objects are a concern a manual safety is the answer.
If I used a 320 with a lighter aftermarket trigger such as an Apex or gray guns trigger for anything other than a pure range toy I would want a manual safety.
The last “shirt tail” ND we had at work involved …. A stock Glock 26 with a stick tab safety trigger.
I'm aware that Sig's logic is that because the trigger bar moves to the rear, it would remove the need for a trigger safety. What we all found out was that, upon impact, the inertia of the (original, high-mass) trigger moving to the rear overwhelmed the inertia of the trigger bar moving to the rear, pulling the trigger bar forward and firing the gun.
Sig's fix for the p320 was to move to a low-mass trigger, however that does not mean that a trigger safety would not also have worked. A trigger safety works because it uses an extremely low-mass paddle held in place by a spring to effectively latch against the frame to hold the trigger in the forward position. Because the trigger safety paddle has such low mass, when dropped it cannot defeat its retention spring. A traditional trigger safety definitely would have prevented the initial high-mass trigger drop safety failures with the P320, as it would have kept the trigger latched in the forward position if dropped. It doesn't matter if the trigger bar moves forward or back in the design, it's irrelevant to the functioning of the trigger safety. The system can't move unless the trigger safety is depressed.
I don't think the fact aftermarket trigger producers also went with a no trigger-safety design actually proves that a trigger safety wouldn't work, though I know Agency now offers a trigger safety option.
I'm aware that Sig's logic is that because the trigger bar moves to the rear, it would remove the need for a trigger safety. What we all found out was that, upon impact, the inertia of the (original, high-mass) trigger moving to the rear overwhelmed the inertia of the trigger bar moving to the rear, pulling the trigger bar forward and firing the gun.
Sig's fix for the p320 was to move to a low-mass trigger, however that does not mean that a trigger safety would not also have worked. A trigger safety works because it uses an extremely low-mass paddle held in place by a spring to effectively latch against the frame to hold the trigger in the forward position. Because the trigger safety paddle has such low mass, when dropped it cannot defeat its retention spring. A traditional trigger safety definitely would have prevented the initial high-mass trigger drop safety failures with the P320, as it would have kept the trigger latched in the forward position if dropped. It doesn't matter if the trigger bar moves forward or back in the design, it's irrelevant to the functioning of the trigger safety. The system can't move unless the trigger safety is depressed.
I don't think the fact aftermarket trigger producers also went with a no trigger-safety design actually proves that a trigger safety wouldn't work, though I know Agency now offers a trigger safety option.
If inertial trigger mass was the only issue with pre recall 320s, why would they also fire when struck by a small mallet? That has nothing to do with the trigger inertia issue.
I carried a P320 from 2015-2017 and was quite the Sig fan. When the safety issue came out, I reasoned it away as being inertial only and that I was pretty safe with my lighter Apex trigger shoe. But when the impact fires came out as well, I ditched the 320 for good and haven't owned a Sig since.
https://youtu.be/veI5NsDqG9E
GlockenSpiel
11-09-2022, 01:36 PM
If inertial trigger mass was the only issue with pre recall 320s, why would they also fire when struck by a small mallet? That has nothing to do with the trigger inertia issue.
https://youtu.be/veI5NsDqG9E
That's why I say "A traditional trigger safety definitely would have prevented the initial high-mass trigger drop safety failures with the P320". There may have been or may still be other issues causing the guns to fire, independent from the trigger mass issues. I know there were a lot of internal changes to the guns surrounding the "upgrade," but I don't know what they all were.
Additionally, holding the gun in your hand and striking the back of it with a mallet could cause similar trigger-inertia firing issues; he's moving the gun back to meet the mallet and the gun pitches forward when struck. I could never tell from that video whether the trigger moves sufficiently to say this is what made that gun fire.
I'm aware that Sig's logic is that because the trigger bar moves to the rear, it would remove the need for a trigger safety. What we all found out was that, upon impact, the inertia of the (original, high-mass) trigger moving to the rear overwhelmed the inertia of the trigger bar moving to the rear, pulling the trigger bar forward and firing the gun.
Sig's fix for the p320 was to move to a low-mass trigger, however that does not mean that a trigger safety would not also have worked. A trigger safety works because it uses an extremely low-mass paddle held in place by a spring to effectively latch against the frame to hold the trigger in the forward position. Because the trigger safety paddle has such low mass, when dropped it cannot defeat its retention spring. A traditional trigger safety definitely would have prevented the initial high-mass trigger drop safety failures with the P320, as it would have kept the trigger latched in the forward position if dropped. It doesn't matter if the trigger bar moves forward or back in the design, it's irrelevant to the functioning of the trigger safety. The system can't move unless the trigger safety is depressed.
I don't think the fact aftermarket trigger producers also went with a no trigger-safety design actually proves that a trigger safety wouldn't work, though I know Agency now offers a trigger safety option.
Which just happens to use the same trigger shoe as agency’s existing Glock trigger, eliminating the need to keep another part in inventory.
My agency is one of the largest non-DOD users of the P320z. We have actual engineers on staff at our national fire s unit. The idea of a tabbed trigger safety for the 320 has been discussed and dismissed. Randy Lee of Apex and Bruce Gray of gray guns are two of the most talented engineers in the pistol aftermarket space. In particular, Apex produces tab triggers for other guns yet did not go that route on the 320. Not to mention the engineering resources available to the DOD. It’s not like no one ever thought of it. It’s a question that has been asked and answered multiple times.
The documented issues with the 320 are internal. If they could be fixed with something as simple as a tab trigger and allow someone to visibly see that a 320 with a tab trigger is now a “safe “model it would have happened and made life a lot simpler for everyone.
SpicyBrass
11-09-2022, 04:24 PM
320 is as flawed design. There have been multiple unintended, accidental (ie. not negligent) discharges of these pistols without manipulation of the trigger, including post 2019 variants--primarily with impacts of the holster against a hard objects (ex. vehicles, building structure, furniture, ground, etc...). There are better service weapon choices available.
Would like to know more. However, you def have access to more info than most.
Maybe the problem has been caused by the lack of institutional experience among the engineering staff at SIG.
It doesnt seem to me a problem like the ejector should ever be on a military grade firearm.
If you look at the history starting with the 250 then 320 then 365 and the problems associated with each platform sort of an evolutionary process could that possibly indicate a learning curve?
Im not experienced enough to make judgment Im asking a question.
Which mfg doesnt seem to suffer these type of problems or to a lesser degree than others?
JonInWA
11-11-2022, 05:26 PM
Maybe the problem has been caused by the lack of institutional experience among the engineering staff at SIG.
It doesnt seem to me a problem like the ejector should ever be on a military grade firearm.
If you look at the history starting with the 250 then 320 then 365 and the problems associated with each platform sort of an evolutionary process could that possibly indicate a learning curve?
Im not experienced enough to make judgment Im asking a question.
Which mfg doesnt seem to suffer these type of problems or to a lesser degree than others?
HK. Not that they're perfect, but very, very good, and quite well internally vetted prior to hitting the market stream.
Best, Jon
Maybe the problem has been caused by the lack of institutional experience among the engineering staff at SIG.
It doesnt seem to me a problem like the ejector should ever be on a military grade firearm.
If you look at the history starting with the 250 then 320 then 365 and the problems associated with each platform sort of an evolutionary process could that possibly indicate a learning curve?
Im not experienced enough to make judgment Im asking a question.
Which mfg doesnt seem to suffer these type of problems or to a lesser degree than others?
You are conflating "military grade" with high quality / long term durable goods.
Military firearms are consumables. The old model was use them till they are worn out/destroyed and rebuild them. The new model is it's cheaper to have a semi disposable gun. Shoot X number of rounds, throw it away and get another.
psalms144.1
11-11-2022, 05:44 PM
You are conflating "military grade" with high quality / long term durable goods.
Military firearms are consumables. The old model was use them till they are worn out/destroyed and rebuild them. The new model is it's cheaper to have a semi disposable gun. Shoot X number of rounds, throw it away and get another.And, given typical service pistol firing schedules for MOST General Purpose Forces, that 20,000 round life span is going to be longer than the careers of darned near anyone who joins the military. I'd be shocked if some of the post WWII 1911s we demilled had more than 10,000 rounds through them in 40+ years or issue.
You are conflating "military grade" with high quality / long term durable goods.
Military firearms are consumables. The old model was use them till they are worn out/destroyed and rebuild them. The new model is it's cheaper to have a semi disposable gun. Shoot X number of rounds, throw it away and get another.
That makes sense. I still have a sense that something is amiss from the engineering end. I dont know how else you could explain it. Im not picking on Sig. It seems like several mfgs have similar problems when introducing new platforms.
That makes sense. I still have a sense that something is amiss from the engineering end. I dont know how else you could explain it. Im not picking on Sig. It seems like several mfgs have similar problems when introducing new platforms.
While we joke about "plastic people poppers," the 320 seems to be a gun designed to go maybe 50k to 60k with proper PMCS ?
Given the problems with M9's and M 249 SAWs in the early GWOT that had been rebuilt one too many times with 3rd party mystery parts maybe a semi disposable pistol is not a bad thing.
DocGKR
11-11-2022, 08:14 PM
"....maybe a semi disposable pistol is not a bad thing".
Yup--isn't that called a Glock?
"....maybe a semi disposable pistol is not a bad thing".
Yup--isn't that called a Glock?
That may have been the concept but there are a lot of high round count Glocks out there. At least in 9mm they seem to be 100k or better guns with proper PMCS.
Vista461
11-12-2022, 12:12 AM
https://wtmj.com/news/2022/10/31/milwaukee-police-to-get-new-service-weapons-following-accidental-discharges-lawsuit/
Well I guess is a circle of life lol.
MPD went from Glock to M&P to Sig and back to Glock.
I’m actually carrying a former MPD M&P at work now Lol.
Paul Blackburn
11-12-2022, 03:36 AM
Whew....glad I stayed away from sig except as an observer.
Haven't seen any real quantifiable advantages over existing vetted options.
For example; are your draw times faster, groups smaller, splits faster?
This is however reminiscent of the M16 adoption so maybe the P320 will go through a few iterations before reaching a pinnacle and becoming Americas handgun.
Bureaucracy is such a killer...
DocGKR
11-12-2022, 12:17 PM
"That may have been the concept but there are a lot of high round count Glocks out there. At least in 9mm they seem to be 100k or better guns with proper PMCS."
Yup....seen many high round count G34/17/19 pistols and have a few myself. Minimal maintenance, shoot to failure, get a new one....
Whew....glad I stayed away from sig except as an observer.
Haven't seen any real quantifiable advantages over existing vetted options.
For example; are your draw times faster, groups smaller, splits faster?
This is however reminiscent of the M16 adoption so maybe the P320 will go through a few iterations before reaching a pinnacle and becoming Americas handgun.
Bureaucracy is such a killer...
ECVMatt
01-25-2023, 11:17 PM
I hope this video had not been previously posted. I searched and did not find it. I show a group of detectives exiting a car when one of the detectives' P320 fires. The gun is holstered and his hands are full. It is at about the 1:15 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HODW0F4eXmo
The video is from October 28, 2021.
I hope this video had not been previously posted. I searched and did not find it. I show a group of detectives exiting a car when one of the detectives' P320 fires. The gun is holstered and his hands are full. It is at about the 1:15 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HODW0F4eXmo
The video is from October 28, 2021.
Maybe not in this thread but it was posted and discussed in the P320 poll thread.
Texaspoff
01-26-2023, 10:20 AM
Maybe not in this thread but it was posted and discussed in the P320 poll thread.
The only thing about all of these reported incidents, is there is movement involved, just as that video shows. Who knows what the officer was doing while in the back of the car, prior to exiting.
He could have pulled it out to show one of the other officer something, or hell they could have been talking about them going off and was looking at his weapon. He holstered it and a piece of his shirt or jacket was lodged in the holster with the pistol. As he exits his torso moves upwards, which pulled the piece of clothing upward, grabbing the trigger and bang.
I know it's all speculation, and who knows. I want to see a video of a 320 sitting static or stationary for a period of time just go off. That would acuratly describe the 'Just going off" that has been described. All of these other incidents, could very easily be defined an ND due to the trigger being pulled by an unknown object or force, and that isn't just going off.
IMO this is still an issue of the 320's trigger having a short take up, a large trigger surface area, not having the trigger tab, silly as they are, just about every other manufacturer are using them for some reason, and items imparting forces on the triggers, IE shirts, clothing or other items. I also believe the above things listed along with certain holsters of the light bearing variety and officers carelessness in weapons handling are also contributing factors.
I was at an area administrators meeting the other day and I saw one agency with several members there all carrying 320's which is what they issue to their officers. They all have WML, and optics installed and are using 7378 RDS 7TS holsters. Two of the officers, that I could see clearly, did not have their 320's seated completely in the holsters, and I could see at least a quarter of the trigger visible. There was enough room I could have easily stuck a finger in there and pulled the trigger.
I think there is a lot of this going on as well as just a significant amount of clearance in other light bearing holsters. I don't believe the 320 is flawed as far as the design goes, but it does require a bit more thought, as compared to some other pistols.
Here is one of my officers with his 320 holstered just as a reference point. I can easily get my finger to the trigger.
https://i.imgur.com/BGADUFjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RAwVzr7l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/B287d02l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hVi0a85l.jpg
My 320 in my 6368 non light bearing holster. There is virtually no way to get my finger to the trigger, and would be extremely difficult to get any other item in there to make contact with the trigger.
https://i.imgur.com/C7zpk9hl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9XkzkWyl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tAlQol5l.jpg
Due to the fact we have quite a few officers about 70% carrying them, including me, we do a lot of training and talking about making sure to be aware of objects getting entangled or intruding on the duty holster and pistol.
TXPO
Guerrero
01-26-2023, 10:29 AM
https://i.imgur.com/B287d02l.jpg
I think that third picture is really telling.
The only thing about all of these reported incidents, is there is movement involved, just as that video shows. Who knows what the officer was doing while in the back of the car, prior to exiting.
He could have pulled it out to show one of the other officer something, or hell they could have been talking about them going off and was looking at his weapon. He holstered it and a piece of his shirt or jacket was lodged in the holster with the pistol. As he exits his torso moves upwards, which pulled the piece of clothing upward, grabbing the trigger and bang.
I know it's all speculation, and who knows. I want to see a video of a 320 sitting static or stationary for a period of time just go off. That would acuratly describe the 'Just going off" that has been described. All of these other incidents, could very easily be defined an ND due to the trigger being pulled by an unknown object or force, and that isn't just going off.
IMO this is still an issue of the 320's trigger having a short take up, a large trigger surface area, not having the trigger tab, silly as they are, just about every other manufacturer are using them for some reason, and items imparting forces on the triggers, IE shirts, clothing or other items. I also believe the above things listed along with certain holsters of the light bearing variety and officers carelessness in weapons handling are also contributing factors.
I was at an area administrators meeting the other day and I saw one agency with several members there all carrying 320's which is what they issue to their officers. They all have WML, and optics installed and are using 7378 RDS 7TS holsters. Two of the officers, that I could see clearly, did not have their 320's seated completely in the holsters, and I could see at least a quarter of the trigger visible. There was enough room I could have easily stuck a finger in there and pulled the trigger.
I think there is a lot of this going on as well as just a significant amount of clearance in other light bearing holsters. I don't believe the 320 is flawed as far as the design goes, but it does require a bit more thought, as compared to some other pistols.
Here is one of my officers with his 320 holstered just as a reference point. I can easily get my finger to the trigger.
https://i.imgur.com/BGADUFjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RAwVzr7l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/B287d02l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hVi0a85l.jpg
My 320 in my 6368 non light bearing holster. There is virtually no way to get my finger to the trigger, and would be extremely difficult to get any other item in there to make contact with the trigger.
https://i.imgur.com/C7zpk9hl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9XkzkWyl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tAlQol5l.jpg
Due to the fact we have quite a few officers about 70% carrying them, including me, we do a lot of training and talking about making sure to be aware of objects getting entangled or intruding on the duty holster and pistol.
TXPO
Agree with all of this ^^^^ 💯
This is one of the reasons we’ve transitioned from issuing TLR-1s and 6000 series RDS holsters to TLR7As and 7000 series holsters.
It’s not just WML holsters though, prior to the red dots we had a bunch of people using their old 229R holsters with the 320, we’ve actually had some guys take a Dremel to the old holsters to accommodate the red dot… because the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops.
100569
45dotACP
01-26-2023, 12:49 PM
And again I will say...
Jeff Cooper once stated that DA/SA semi autos are a "solution in search of a problem"
...yet here the problem is.
This is a single action only pistol without a safety.
Who would even think of wanting to carry a cocked and unlocked 1911...or a Sig 220 with the hammer back.
Why are we saying that these guns are perfectly safe to carry with the idea being the officers carrying them may get into a maximum effort, full contact fight while it's in their holster? Or that they may be chasing a suspect and run right into a wall, or hit something so hard the gun pops out of the holster and falls on the ground and they have to put it back in the holster real quick and start running again...
There are a number of concerns I have with carrying a fully cocked pistol with no safeties, not even a hinged or bladed trigger safety.
Would not a huge number of these problems be solved by a TDA or maybe a stock Glock?
Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
And again I will say...
Jeff Cooper once stated that DA/SA semi autos are a "solution in search of a problem"
...yet here the problem is.
This is a single action only pistol without a safety.
Who would even think of wanting to carry a cocked and unlocked 1911...or a Sig 220 with the hammer back.
Why are we saying that these guns are perfectly safe to carry with the idea being the officers carrying them may get into a maximum effort, full contact fight while it's in their holster? Or that they may be chasing a suspect and run right into a wall, or hit something so hard the gun pops out of the holster and falls on the ground and they have to put it back in the holster real quick and start running again...
There are a number of concerns I have with carrying a fully cocked pistol with no safeties, not even a hinged or bladed trigger safety.
Would not a huge number of these problems be solved by a TDA or maybe a stock Glock?
Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
The problem with DA/SA (TDA) is people holstering a cocked pistol after shooting. In numerous classes I have seen someone show up with a TDA who have not ingrained de-cocking whenever the muzzle comes off of target inevitably holster a cocked pistol at some point(s) in the class. It's a user problem but still a problem.
45dotACP
01-26-2023, 01:29 PM
The problem with DA/SA (TDA) is people holstering a cocked pistol after shooting. In numerous classes I have seen someone show up with a TDA who have not ingrained de-cocking whenever the muzzle comes off of target inevitably holster a cocked pistol at some point(s) in the class. It's a user problem but still a problem.Yabbut they've holstered a gun that is precisely as safe as a sig 320...isn't that just fine?
I am half joking. But I definitely see where you're coming from on the practice of decocking a pistol.
Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
Texaspoff
01-26-2023, 01:45 PM
Agree with all of this ^^^^ 💯
This is one of the reasons we’ve transitioned from issuing TLR-1s and 6000 series RDS holsters to TLR7As and 7000 series holsters.
It’s not just WML holsters though, prior to the red dots we had a bunch of people using their old 229R holsters with the 320, we’ve actually had some guys take a Dremel to the old holsters to accommodate the red dot… because the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops.
100569
Absolutely the funniest statement I've read all year, and completely true.
TXPO
Absolutely the funniest statement I've read all year, and completely true.
TXPO
Got that from an old NYPD mentor. 100% true.
And again I will say...
Jeff Cooper once stated that DA/SA semi autos are a "solution in search of a problem"
...yet here the problem is.
This is a single action only pistol without a safety.
Who would even think of wanting to carry a cocked and unlocked 1911...or a Sig 220 with the hammer back.
Why are we saying that these guns are perfectly safe to carry with the idea being the officers carrying them may get into a maximum effort, full contact fight while it's in their holster? Or that they may be chasing a suspect and run right into a wall, or hit something so hard the gun pops out of the holster and falls on the ground and they have to put it back in the holster real quick and start running again...
There are a number of concerns I have with carrying a fully cocked pistol with no safeties, not even a hinged or bladed trigger safety.
Would not a huge number of these problems be solved by a TDA or maybe a stock Glock?
Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
Keep in mind both blade and hinged triggers are inertia drop safeties.that why you see blade safeties on modem hunting rifle triggers.
The idea that it’s a “trigger safety” to ensure you don’t snag the edge of the trigger is nonsense as evidenced by the thousands of ND’s with Glocks over the past 40 years.
I’m all for them as inertia safeties but in particular the blade / hinge design doesn’t work on the 320 because when the 330 trigger is pulled the trigger bar moves the opposite direction of most firearms.
Yes Agency sells a blade safety trigger but it isn’t doing anything. SIG also initially made a blade safety trigger but admitted it’s non functional and was only created to appease LE managers used to Glocks. The only one I know of in the wild were those purchased by the Guatemalan national police.
Got that from an old NYPD mentor. 100% true.
And the only thing cheaper still, is a couple of retired cops.
Bucky
01-27-2023, 06:18 AM
I’m all for them as inertia safeties but in particular the blade / hinge design doesn’t work on the 320 because when the 330 trigger is pulled the trigger bar moves the opposite direction of most firearms.
I would tend to disagree. Regardless of the direction of the trigger bar, slow motion drop tests do show the trigger moving rearward. A trigger blade safety would have prevented rearward movement. Maybe you’re saying the newer guns are designed in a way to not need it, but trigger bar movement alone cannot be the case, since the pre-fixed guns may have benefitted from them.
Starts at the 1 min mark.
https://youtu.be/ch7si_VQsGA
Hambo
01-27-2023, 06:49 AM
Agree with all of this ^^^^ 💯
This is one of the reasons we’ve transitioned from issuing TLR-1s and 6000 series RDS holsters to TLR7As and 7000 series holsters.
It’s not just WML holsters though, prior to the red dots we had a bunch of people using their old 229R holsters with the 320, we’ve actually had some guys take a Dremel to the old holsters to accommodate the red dot… because the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops.
100569
Incorrect and shitty holsters are a major problem. Cheap cops (redundant), cheap civilians, the careless, indifferent, and stupid, stick pistols in all sorts of shitty holsters. I believe there are a lot of people out there thinking "it's a holster, it's OK" without any understanding of the potential danger.
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