RFI: Tabletop CNC routers

[OlongJohnson]

I stumbled onto another cool technology that's gotten cheap while I wasn't looking.

I'm thinking about getting one of these, or something in the category.

https://www.sainsmart.com/products/genmitsu-cnc-router-machine-3020-pro-max-diy-kit-for-metal-carving-and-more

I want to cut hardwood, plywood, balsa, G10, carbon fiber plate, PC board. Will probably look at one that can handle light duty aluminum and other soft metals, as the one I linked. I figure the stiffness of the heavier frame will likely pay off in consistent performance for a longer time even when cutting lighter materials.

It occurs to me that this could do a heck of a job knocking out custom revolver and other grips and inserts, or even just prepping blanks to fit the frame, which could then be carved with more traditional methods. I think it must be the fact that it can make stuff out of "real" materials - I'm just way more interested in this than I've gotten in any type of 3D printing. Waaaaay cooler to load up some walnut and turn out a nice pair of stocks, maybe even checkered, than to have soulless plastic pooped out in layers from a melt tube.

We have a few tool guys and woodworkers here, and more than a few tech geeks. Has anyone here used these machines? Any advice for a quality, hobby-level or "pro-sumer" tool?

[Borderland]

I think this is the same tech that plasma cutting tables use. My neighbor uses one of these in his metal art business.

https://arclightcnc.com/cnc-plasma-tables

He programs his cuts, locks down a 4x8 sheet and stands back. Does vertical as well as horizontal.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324055031599

I bought a set of these and I can tell the cuts were CNC. Made in Taiwan.

I'm thinking it's one of the reasons Ahrends went out of business.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but there's a difference between hand finished and CNC machine cuts.

[JCN]

I stumbled onto another cool technology that's gotten cheap while I wasn't looking.

I'm thinking about getting one of these, or something in the category.

https://www.sainsmart.com/products/genmitsu-cnc-router-machine-3020-pro-max-diy-kit-for-metal-carving-and-more



I think this is the same tech that plasma cutting tables use. My neighbor uses one of these in his metal art business.

https://arclightcnc.com/cnc-plasma-tables


You bastards!


>Furiously starts scheming on how to fit this into the garage unnoticed by wife<

[Crazy Dane]

You bastards!


>Furiously starts scheming on how to fit this into the garage unnoticed by wife<


Good luck! After last night's gin fueled shopping spree for revolver grips, I have been put on notice. It's gonna be a while before I can sneak anything.

[Joe in PNG]

I've thought about it for guitar building, but that would take out the fun bits and leave the tedious part (sanding).

[Borderland]

You bastards!


>Furiously starts scheming on how to fit this into the garage unnoticed by wife<

How to turn your garage into a hundred thousand dollar business over night. Call now. Operators standing by.

[OlongJohnson]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324055031599

I bought a set of these and I can tell the cuts were CNC. Made in Taiwan.

I'm thinking it's one of the reasons Ahrends went out of business.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but there's a difference between hand finished and CNC machine cuts.

Of course there is. But a huge amount of it is the work that the company is willing to do on the front end in CAD to get the design right, rather than just being a "looks like the picture" knockoff. Hogue parts are pretty frickin' nice. They do it right, at least in quality, and the one time I found some that weren't right, they swapped them out. Would tweak some of the designs if I could.

Looking more closely at the issues on the set photographed for that Ebay listing, it's also possible that the bulk carving was done by hand and just the fitting for the frame on the inside and the checkering and surrounding groove were done by CNC. The pattern of the checkering and surround clearly doesn't match the contour of the stocks, which you'd think wouldn't happen if everything was done by CNC in the same setup.

Fully CNC'ed stocks, if done right, and if designed right in the first place, should be more perfect and more perfectly consistent than a person can do by hand. The stocks you linked are cheaply made and show shortcuts and failures to really get it right in almost every detail.

[hiro]

My local library has a maker space with a CNC machine, might be worth seeing if you have similar available to "try before you buy"?

[MickAK]

I would wait a bit. There have been a number of small independent machine shops/side hustles start up in the era of cheap money and they invested heavily in pro grade equipment, a lot of which will probably be on the market in another 6 months or so. Keeping your ear to the ground could get you an excellent deal with no risk of one foot itis.

If you know what you want and don't want to spend the time searching for deals I would find the PF of hobby machining and follow their recommendations but I don't currently know what that is.

[Borderland]

Of course there is. But a huge amount of it is the work that the company is willing to do on the front end in CAD to get the design right, rather than just being a "looks like the picture" knockoff. Hogue parts are pretty frickin' nice. They do it right, at least in quality, and the one time I found some that weren't right, they swapped them out. Would tweak some of the designs if I could.

Looking more closely at the issues on the set photographed for that Ebay listing, it's also possible that the bulk carving was done by hand and just the fitting for the frame on the inside and the checkering and surrounding groove were done by CNC. The pattern of the checkering and surround clearly doesn't match the contour of the stocks, which you'd think wouldn't happen if everything was done by CNC in the same setup.

Fully CNC'ed stocks, if done right, and if designed right in the first place, should be more perfect and more perfectly consistent than a person can do by hand. The stocks you linked are cheaply made and show shortcuts and failures to really get it right in almost every detail.

I have a set of Hogue grips on a 625. I didn't know they were CNC cut. They look as good as any I've seen.

I'm wondering how much trial and error went into getting to that level. Also they're hand finished, I'm pretty sure of that.

There might be a market there.

My neighbor has had his business up and running for 5 years. He has some financial help so I don't think it's a viable business.

[OlongJohnson]

I just got a nice raise at my current job this week. Not looking to start a new business, just to make some things for myself that I find entertaining. If I had any ideas about knocking out several sets of stocks every day or week and selling them for profit, I'd be shopping equipment with one, maybe two more zeroes in the price.

[MickAK]

I just got a nice raise at my current job this week. Not looking to start a new business, just to make some things for myself that I find entertaining. If I had any ideas about knocking out several sets of stocks every day or week and selling them for profit, I'd be shopping equipment with one, maybe two more zeroes in the price.

That's understandable, I'm just relating what I see friends do when they get into this sort of thing. If they have the means they usually upgrade quickly and the small hobby machine sits there collecting dust. There will be some deals soon if J Powell has anything to say about it.

I know a guy that has a tremendous amount of fun retrofitting bench top Harbor Freight lathes until they're capable of incredible accuracy. It's a niche and some people fall into it. It's not about the money, he just has fun turning a shoddy piece of equipment into a good one cheaply.

That might be you, or it might not. Depends on what you find fun.

[JohnO]

So could someone use this machine to finish 80% items?

[rob_s]

I guess I’m a woodworker, tool guy, and tech geek.

I’ve followed this market for awhile now through the lens of the various “maker” YouTube channels I watch. I’ve come close myself a few times to getting one, but the stuff I build is bigger and so I’ve been looking at larger (and considerably more expensive) units.

I wouldn’t expect much from a $550 unit, and obviously it’s only going to have a very small capacity, but it’s also likely cheap enough to not cry too much if it fails, and you’ll learn something along the way.

I’ve also toyed with the idea of a 3d printer, laser cutter, etc. as well.

All of these digital fabrication tools get, predictably, some backlash. Really depends on what you’re after. Are you an office worker that likes ”making” because of the physical labor aspect, or are you a designer that likes creating things and prefer to do so as efficiently as possible? If you’re the former, digital fabrication probably isn’t for you if you’re the latter, it’s right up your alley.

I’m a bit of both, myself. One thing that turns me off is that I spend my day job in front of a computer. I’m not really looking to come home and do computer work, no matter how much more efficient that might be. Plus, I don’t even own a computer, so there’s that too.

[OlongJohnson]

So could someone use this machine to finish 80% items?

I did see a review on one that mentioned the spoilboard had holes suited for holding an "Armalite" by the takedown pin holes.

The drilling would be easy, but you'd need to make sure the unit you buy had enough vertical travel to accommodate the vertical positioning to access the pockets.

Be careful about rigidity, though. Most of the lower end machines are not meant to even cut thin aluminum sheet. People get into extensive upgrades trying to make the machines do things that they were never intended to do.

Having spent some quality spindle time with a real metal mill after work a few nights ago, I would never look at one of these little desktop units and think it is the right tool for more than the lightest duty machining of aluminum. "Engraving" is about right. Maybe putting text on something that's gotten a stamp...

Doing the pockets in an AR lower would be pushing it. I'd run it slowly. Workholding will be an issue, too. A decent little mill vise will take up a lot of your vertical. You might have to look at raising the sides, as some reviewers have done.

I've also progressed to looking at the FoxAlien x Woodmads CNC Router WM3020. It has some key upgrades, like actual ball screws. Definitely more money. Might be more upgradeable as far as adapting a compact router from DeWalt or Makita.
https://www.foxalien.com/products/foxalien-x-woodmads-cnc-router-wm3020

It's definitely a rabbit hole.

[OlongJohnson]

All of these digital fabrication tools get, predictably, some backlash. Really depends on what you’re after. Are you an office worker that likes ”making” because of the physical labor aspect, or are you a designer that likes creating things and prefer to do so as efficiently as possible? If you’re the former, digital fabrication probably isn’t for you if you’re the latter, it’s right up your alley.

I’m a bit of both, myself. One thing that turns me off is that I spend my day job in front of a computer. I’m not really looking to come home and do computer work, no matter how much more efficient that might be. Plus, I don’t even own a computer, so there’s that too.

Yes and the same.

I have decent skills, as I've been making stuff my whole life. I'm attracted to the ideas of repeatability and precision, where I can "microwave" out parts that are semi-finished more accurately and with greater geometric complexity than I can easily achieve by hand. And if I need three or four effectively identical parts to complete a system, not having to do the same darn thing over and over, and having them actually all be reasonably close to the same. And if I want to make a second copy of the system, not having all those man-hours between me and the goal. It's about being able to bring the ideas in my head into reality more perfectly and with fewer hours sunk into the process. Do the creative part one time, and then let the machine handle the tedious stuff...except sanding. There will always be sanding.

Owning equipment does have to be weighed against the "sendcutsend" option, but I like the ideas of rapid turnaround rather than waiting days, being able to do-over if my design has an issue or I think of an improvement once the parts are in my hands, and being able to make just one or a couple little parts without getting eaten by lot charges. It would be neat to think of something while my mind wanders at work, come home, draw it up, and have it in my hands, made with precision, that night. Especially if the parts can get cut out while I make a snack.

[rob_s]

I think that if you're already doing some amount of 3D computer design (Sketchup, Fusion, etc.) then it makes the transition a little easier.

I design a lot of my projects in Sketchup, but when it comes to the building about 50% of the point for me is to spend some hand time that's not typing/mousing.

But I agree, there are certain projects or processes where having the machine cut it out while I do something else is attractive. I keep telling myself I need to find some small-scale things to build rather than big pieces. As it stands, I can't imagine a CNC under 8ftx4ft that would do me any good, and those are big, big money.

[Lex Luthier]

I'm just getting into the drawing end of things after years away, but I have worked with 90% finished parts in ebony, rosewood, and yes, walnut.
An awful lot of repetative lutherie tasks are suited to CNC processes. Finiting, polishing, and so forth are all still hand processes.
The kind of precision you seem to chase is best
addressed with a larger machine.
Famed luthier Jim Olson uses a Fadal* CNC for making most of his parts - kerfing, fingerboards ( including fret slots and inlay pocket routing), bridge shaping and string pin hole cutting,
headstock shaping, neck profiling, etc.
Tellingly, the most critical process of dovetail joint cutting on neck block and neck shaft are done by hand with routers using aluminum jigs made on the CNC.
All of his amazingly precise jigs are produced in house.

* He sprang for a power transformer for his workshop to support his CNC usage and his compressor system; the rest of his power tools are in line with what a modestly
wealthy hobbyist would equip a one-man shop.

[UNK]

Do eet! Ill be your first customer for boot grips that enclose the backstrap. I wont even need checkering Ill use grip tape.
Some of the newer designs however are being done with 4 axis.

I havent looked at these (cnc router packages) in a while but the problem is always the software.

These guys are the bomb. Id go with an Acorn board. https://www.centroidcnc.com/index.html

For motors

https://youtu.be/gz9mZ5fBwUM

And when I say software is always the problem go to the forums and see how many problems guy are having and no cust support. I know a guy with a cnc plasma sitting in his garage unused because of software. Ive tried to get him to uograde to centroid with no luck.




I stumbled onto another cool technology that's gotten cheap while I wasn't looking.

I'm thinking about getting one of these, or something in the category.

https://www.sainsmart.com/products/genmitsu-cnc-router-machine-3020-pro-max-diy-kit-for-metal-carving-and-more

I want to cut hardwood, plywood, balsa, G10, carbon fiber plate, PC board. Will probably look at one that can handle light duty aluminum and other soft metals, as the one I linked. I figure the stiffness of the heavier frame will likely pay off in consistent performance for a longer time even when cutting lighter materials.

It occurs to me that this could do a heck of a job knocking out custom revolver and other grips and inserts, or even just prepping blanks to fit the frame, which could then be carved with more traditional methods. I think it must be the fact that it can make stuff out of "real" materials - I'm just way more interested in this than I've gotten in any type of 3D printing. Waaaaay cooler to load up some walnut and turn out a nice pair of stocks, maybe even checkered, than to have soulless plastic pooped out in layers from a melt tube.

We have a few tool guys and woodworkers here, and more than a few tech geeks. Has anyone here used these machines? Any advice for a quality, hobby-level or "pro-sumer" tool?

[runcible]

Well, this is in my lane.

Here's a few things that I'd recommend treating as negatives if not outright red-flags:

Internet-connectivity required in order to use the hardware.
They sell the UI specifically to the hobbyist, and exhort how much you don't have to learn in order to use it.
Unusual sales-structure\referral-incentives.
Crowdsourced\open-source anything.

I own a few CNC machines, have offloaded one (Maslow) and intend to offload another (Glowforge), and expect to have two new ones (large format laser, pattern-tacker) arrive before end-of-year. The emphatically hobbyist machines are almost always more inexpensive than a pro machine, but usually not by nearly so much as to really make it a good buy for any frame of consideration longer than one year; putting wholly aside industrial machinery and the vastly different expectations for that.

i.e. on the laser side of things, I started with a Glowforge. It got me off the rocks, decreased the response time for idea\draft\cut\refine since it was all in-house, and frankly it's still making odds and ends for use at my workplace. On the flip side, there's no accomodation for kerf, certain functions are effectively broken and always have been (e.g. multi-pass cuts have no repeatable zero to work from), the cutting bed is small and oddly proportioned (making cost comparisons difficult), complex vector maps can take prohibitively long times to send to and be returned from the GF server, replacement parts are disproportionately expensive, internet connectivity is required for all usage, and the GF unit isn't scalable\upgradable\modifiable. A GF Basic currently goes for about $4k (11" x 19.5" cutting area) ($2.4k when I bought mine); a Boss LS-1416 spec'd with the cutting bed expansion (14" x 20") can be had for as little as $4.8k.

Trying to avoid this skewed cost dynamic and limiting factors had me steer well clear of Inventable's X-Carve and similarly advertised machines.

There's a point that any maker\creative will reach, wherein the featuring that supports the "you don't need to learn CAD and\or how to program g-code" is going to hold them back and cause more time loss, than learning those component skills ever will.

These things are doing great work for me right now:

Shapr3d
Inkscape
Vectric Cut2D Pro
Yeti Smartbench

These things are on-the-way\in-progress:

Lightburn
Boss Lasers LS-3655
Juki\Dematron pattern tacker
Juki PM-1

These are possible\probable upgrades for the future:

Avid PRO 4896
Tormach ???

[Oldherkpilot]

How to turn your garage into a hundred thousand dollar business over night. Call now. Operators standing by.

We can also extend your car's warranty while we have you on the line!😁

[Oldherkpilot]

Fully CNC'ed stocks, if done right, and if designed right in the first place, should be more perfect and more perfectly consistent than a person can do by hand.

Gadzooks, man! Sacrilege and heresy come to mind, as well as a pretty serious question. What is the proper social distance to maintain when the guy next to you is BOUND to be struck by lightning strike? Been nice knowing you, pal!😁

Oldherkpilot
Also know by the shingle above my shop door as Wood Worked Here😉