Best Hard-Use AR15s in 2022?

[HCM]

I see. Would you happen to know the closest thing to those "old school" classes/instructors?

Rather than derail this thread with current carbine instructor options, here is a recent thread on that topic:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?53942-Who-does-the-best-carbine-rifle-classes

Any of these instructors are well qualified to teach carbine:

Chuck Pressburg (Presscheck Consulting)
Bill Blowers (Tap-Rack Tactical)
Mike Pannone (CTT Solutions)
Pat McNamara (TMACS Inc)
Buck Doyle (Follow Through Consulting)
Michael Green (Green Ops)
Matt Little (Grey Beard Actual)
Kyle Defoor (Defoor Proformance Shooting)
Steve Fisher (Sentinel Concepts)
John McPhee (SOB Tactical)
Matt Pranka (X-Ray Alpha)
Frank Proctor (Frank Proctor Shooting, formerly Way of the Gun)
Mark Smith (JBS Training group)
Dan Brokos (Lead Faucet Tactical)
Paul Howe (CSAT)
Jim Smith (Spartan Tactical)
Travis Haley (Haley Strategic)

[4RNR]

I don't really sweat the accessories, not much interest in that anyway. Instead I look for solid firearms at good prices. All my 6920s are stock and none cost over $600. It wasn't until I decided to try an LPVO that I branched out away from 6920. Found a WC for the price of a new 6920 and just recently a DD for a G.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Thats what the thread is all about. Read the OPs responses. The the kid who started the thread talked about his range trip, getting flak for his "retro setup". I tried to give the kid some honest guidance. Some cat jumped in with some Oppositional defiance, I returned the favor. Little bit of thin skin and here we are.

Since I haven't been locked yet, I will make my last reply to you. The more and more I interact with "gun people", especially on the internet, the less and less I like "gun people". Perhaps thats a clue. To me.

Yes, if you can’t be civil, leave c_rion. Don’t argue, either be civil or leave.

[c_rion]

Yes, if you can’t be civil, leave c_rion. Don’t argue, either be civil or leave.

Jesus fucking christ, I guess this is a fuckin airport and you do have to announce after all. Hey dude, lock this fuckin account, stop emailing me replies, and have a nice fucking day. Thanks!

[LittleLebowski]

Jesus fucking christ, I guess this is a fuckin airport and you do have to announce after all. Hey dude, lock this fuckin account, stop emailing me replies, and have a nice fucking day. Thanks!

The email replies are automatic, numbnuts. It says so right in the email. Bye.

[BehindBlueI's]

Jesus fucking christ, I guess this is a fuckin airport and you do have to announce after all. Hey dude, lock this fuckin account, stop emailing me replies, and have a nice fucking day. Thanks!

I guess we all know what the "C" stood for. Back to technical talk...

[Mercworx]

Haven’t caught up on every page but.

As a beginner does this change the selection criteria at all? I would like to attend some classes next year and intended to use the rifle as a home defense tool. As of now I am only budgeted for one rifle. I can afford around $1500 but at my skill level (virtually non existent) is that level investment even needed? Can something like a M&P Sport II hold up to a couple classes a year at most? Or do ARs fall under the “buy once cry once” rule?

[HCM]

Haven’t caught up on every page but.

As a beginner does this change the selection criteria at all? I would like to attend some classes next year and intended to use the rifle as a home defense tool. As of now I am only budgeted for one rifle. I can afford around $1500 but at my skill level (virtually non existent) is that level investment even needed? Can something like a M&P Sport II hold up to a couple classes a year at most? Or do ARs fall under the “buy once cry once” rule?

The sport might work, but given your budget and the fact you can currently find Colt 6920s under $1k, I would try to get a Colt 6920 in a black Friday sale or a Colt 6920 OEM from arm’s unlimited on one of their periodic $750 sales.

Personally, I’ve had very good luck with the aim point micro style optics from SIG, Holosun and Vortex which run from $150 to $300.

If you want to burn up a little more of your budget, the endpoint Pro can be found around $400 and has a true duty great optic.

The only other things you really need or some magazines, a quick adjust 2 point sling and sone type of weapons mounted light. While the dedicated, sure fire, Streamlight, mod light and cloud defensive options are nice., if you have a spare, pistol, white laying around, that will work. Another option is one of the sure fire, or stream light hand held lights in a 1” ring mount. You will probably want one of the tactical versions of the flashlight that only operates in high mode and has a clicking tail cap. If you already have a handheld light laying around, you can probably buy an aftermarket clicky tail cap for the Surefire or stream light models for less than $20.

Impact Weapons Components, Arisaka Defense, GG&ag and Midwest industries all make options for attaching flashlights to either regular plastic hand guards for the A-frame of a standard M4.

[oregon45]

For $1500 a Colt 6960 and an Aimpoint Pro would be very difficult to beat. Budget another $115 for a 10-pack of Gen 3 Pmags, then $50-60 for a sling of your choice and you're set. Add a weaponlight later on if you feel you need one.

[Wake27]

Haven’t caught up on every page but.

As a beginner does this change the selection criteria at all? I would like to attend some classes next year and intended to use the rifle as a home defense tool. As of now I am only budgeted for one rifle. I can afford around $1500 but at my skill level (virtually non existent) is that level investment even needed? Can something like a M&P Sport II hold up to a couple classes a year at most? Or do ARs fall under the “buy once cry once” rule?

$1,500 for what? The rifle itself and you can add accessories (at least an optic) and ammo outside that budget? Or $1,500 is all the money you’re going to be able to put into it for quite some time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mercworx]

$1,500 for what? The rifle itself and you can add accessories (at least an optic) and ammo outside that budget? Or $1,500 is all the money you’re going to be able to put into it for quite some time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

$1500 for the rifle itself not including ammo, training or accessories. I have the means to also budget for the training & accessories. I am pursuing debt freedom and $1500 seemed the responsible amount I could dedicate to the weapon itself while remaining on track for financial goals.


For $1500 a Colt 6960 and an Aimpoint Pro would be very difficult to beat. Budget another $115 for a 10-pack of Gen 3 Pmags, then $50-60 for a sling of your choice and you're set. Add a weaponlight later on if you feel you need one.


Thank you! I will look into the 6960.

[Wake27]

$1500 for the rifle itself not including ammo, training or accessories. I have the means to also budget for the training & accessories. I am pursuing debt freedom and $1500 seemed the responsible amount I could dedicate to the weapon itself while remaining on track for financial goals.




Thank you! I will look into the 6960.

I’ve pitched BCM a bunch in this thread and this is a great budget for them. Are you tied to a complete gun or open to separate upper and lower?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[WobblyPossum]

Haven’t caught up on every page but.

As a beginner does this change the selection criteria at all? I would like to attend some classes next year and intended to use the rifle as a home defense tool. As of now I am only budgeted for one rifle. I can afford around $1500 but at my skill level (virtually non existent) is that level investment even needed? Can something like a M&P Sport II hold up to a couple classes a year at most? Or do ARs fall under the “buy once cry once” rule?

You can get a Colt 6960 (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/951756941) for $999. That will leave almost 1/3 of your budget available for lights, sights, and a sling. Maybe you’ll be able to find a slightly better deal around Black Friday weekend, but I don’t know how much better. A Proctor Sling (https://www.frankproctorshooting.com/proctor-sling/) is probably the lowest price decent sling you can buy. It works as is without the need to buy QD hardware. Others have already talked about lights and sights. I’ve got one of the Primary Arms (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slxz-advanced-rotary-knob-micro-red-dot-sight) Aimpoint Micro clones mounted to a 12ga Beretta 1301 and it hadn’t died on me yet. They aren’t as nice as my Aimpoints but they seem serviceable enough for classes and home defense. A Holosun would probably be the next level up.

[Andy T]

You can also buy 6960 from Dahlone Armory (https://dahlonegaarmory.com/product/colt-mid-carbine-5.56-16.1-30rd-blk#product_detail) to save on taxes. I purchased a number of firearms from them. Fast shipping and some of the best prices.
Frankly Sport II would probably work "just as well". But I would rather get the Colt.

[Mercworx]

I’ve pitched BCM a bunch in this thread and this is a great budget for them. Are you tied to a complete gun or open to separate upper and lower?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I’m open to a separate upper and lower though I think I’d need them to both be complete as I’ve never built an AR before.

[Andy T]

You might also find a deal on forums. Random posting from AR15 - CR6940 (https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/Colt-CR6940-Monolithic-Reduced-/21-2302042/)

[Wake27]

I’m open to a separate upper and lower though I think I’d need them to both be complete as I’ve never built an AR before.

That opens up tons of options then.

The 6960 will work and probably the best bang for your buck.

https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-standard-14-5-mid-length-enhanced-light-weight-upper-receiver-group-w-mcmr-13-handguard/

This would be my number one for an upper. Add the BCM BCG, 4x4 ambi charging handle, and MBUS sights and you’ve got a really nice upper. The BFH and/or MK2 are additional upgrade options but may be dabbling in the realm of beyond your pallet, as referenced in your OP.

You can usually get the upper cheaper from their dealers.

The lower has far less peculiarity but below is an easy, in stock answer. I like tan furniture and prefer their SOPMOD stock but those are personal preference and easily changed. Their new MK2 recoil mitigation system is a slight variation to the buffer assembly and I’d jump on that equally as fast.

https://www.rainierarms.com/bcm-lower-group-w-mod-0-stock-black/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Mercworx]

Thank you all for the recommendations and info. Looking into it now and I expect to make a purchase this week.

[Wake27]

Thank you all for the recommendations and info. Looking into it now and I expect to make a purchase this week.

Mentioned up thread but I would have no issues buying used off of Tacswap or AR15.com, as long as the member has good feedback. I sell stuff all the time because I’m anal and there are definitely deals out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[SwampDweller]

I'm thankful for all the great info provided so far in this thread, as well as the thoughtful questions posed by other users.

Right now I'm leaning towards the DD M4v9, I think. Though just getting a 6920, a thousand rounds, and a few trips to the range to vet it is a little tempting and a practical option. But hey, I've never owned a midlength before.

[trajiiic]

Where does Aero Precision sit in the group's opinion. I believe they white label for many companies and outsource their barrel work to Ballistic Advantage. I've never owned an Aero rifle but I think I'd take one over a S&W/Springfield/Brownells/PSA.

[HCM]

Where does Aero Precision sit in the group's opinion. I believe they white label for many companies and outsource their barrel work to Ballistic Advantage. I've never owned an Aero rifle but I think I'd take one over a S&W/Springfield/Brownells/PSA.

Aero OEM’s receivers for other companies.

Aero owns Ballistic advantage.

The barrels and recovers are fine. The problem with Aero’s complete guns or complete receivers are assembly and the poor quality small parts they use.

As such I put them on par with PSA. Fine for the range, not what I would choose for duty.

[Andy T]

Aero OEM’s receivers for other companies.

Aero owns Ballistic advantage.

The barrels and recovers are fine. The problem with Aero’s complete guns or complete receivers are assembly and the poor quality small parts they use.

As such I put them on par with PSA. Fine for the range, not what I would choose for duty.

What would you recommend for Lower Parts kits?

[theJanitor]

When Brownells throws BCM complete lowers on sale, they are REALLY hard to beat. I'd take one over building out a stripped lower.

[HCM]

What would you recommend for Lower Parts kits?

Their lower receivers? Yes, their lower parts kits, no.

Brownells. Sionics, DD, BCM, Geissele, SOLGW.

[JohnO]

What would you recommend for Lower Parts kits?

SOLGW, BCM, DD or Geissele all are manufactures I would not hesitate to use. I like kits that do not include a trigger & grip so I can chose my preference.

For example: https://www.primaryarms.com/sons-of-liberty-gun-works-blaster-starter-ar-15-lower-builder-kit-no-fire-control

[WobblyPossum]

Sionics Weapon Systems also has great lower parts kits.

[usmc_k9_vet]

Any love for PWS and Lantac? Curious to hear user’s thoughts on those two brands.

I’m also an LWRC fan as I’ve had great success with one of their piston guns (14.5” pinned) and their DI (16” kind of annoying proprietary rail, would prefer MLOK).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David S.]

Any love for Lone Star Armory?

[O4L]

Aero OEM’s receivers for other companies.

Aero owns Ballistic advantage.

The barrels and recovers are fine. The problem with Aero’s complete guns or complete receivers are assembly and the poor quality small parts they use.

As such I put them on par with PSA. Fine for the range, not what I would choose for duty.Interesting info.

I recently bought a slightly used complete AERO AR15, so if I replaced the LPK with a premium brand it would be good to go?

Thanks.

[willie]

Maintaining machinery to keep tolerances within certain limits requires replacing worn parts at specified intervals. This is expensive, and so is culling rejected products. Once I sent back to Olin a high dollar but defective double shotgun. Olin replaced it. The head man told me they destroyed the one I returned. He added that they had also destroyed a large number of double rifles that failed to meet standards. After cutting them up, they ceased selling double rifles. Few manufacturers can afford this QC standard. Those shipping defective firearms probably know the score but ship duds anyway.

[BK14]

Interesting info.

I recently bought a slightly used complete AERO AR15, so if I replaced the LPK with a premium brand it would be good to go?

Thanks.


I personally think it depends on how you’re defining “good to go”. Duty use, or depending how seriously you take home defense, I’d put more work into checking everything and replacing some more things. Fun range gun, might as well just run it as is, replace parts if you have issues.

Assuming you have the skills, I’d run through the whole gun to check for properly torqued parts, and proper staking. Checking torque/thread locker on the gas block, torque on barrel nut (my aero upper barrel nut was over torqued, and no aeroshell on the threads), gas key staking, castle nut staking. Depending on the barrel/gas system length, I’d likely throw a heavier buffer than the standard car buffer most of their guns come with, and I run sprinco springs for my buffer springs. While you’re in there, might be worth replacing the extractor and ejector spring in the bolt, or replacing the bolt entirely depending on the use for the gun. I don’t think the Aero bolts are C158/MPI/HPI if you’re of the opinion that those things matter. If you really want to get into the weeds, consider that if the buffer tube is 6061 vs 7075, it’s technically not as strong. Although very unlikely to ever have issues from what I’ve seen.

[Wake27]

I personally think it depends on how you’re defining “good to go”. Duty use, or depending how seriously you take home defense, I’d put more work into checking everything and replacing some more things. Fun range gun, might as well just run it as is, replace parts if you have issues.

Assuming you have the skills, I’d run through the whole gun to check for properly torqued parts, and proper staking. Checking torque/thread locker on the gas block, torque on barrel nut (my aero upper barrel nut was over torqued, and no aeroshell on the threads), gas key staking, castle nut staking. Depending on the barrel/gas system length, I’d likely throw a heavier buffer than the standard car buffer most of their guns come with, and I run sprinco springs for my buffer springs. While you’re in there, might be worth replacing the extractor and ejector spring in the bolt, or replacing the bolt entirely depending on the use for the gun. I don’t think the Aero bolts are C158/MPI/HPI if you’re of the opinion that those things matter. If you really want to get into the weeds, consider that if the buffer tube is 6061 vs 7075, it’s technically not as strong. Although very unlikely to ever have issues from what I’ve seen.

All very well said. I don’t mess with assembly on uppers but I usually just look at staking of the castle nut and gas key. If those aren’t done properly, I assume other corners have been cut and decide how I want to proceed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[azant]

Any love for Lone Star Armory?


We have 29 Lone Star Armory guns at our department. They are very solid guns. Six of them are suppressed guns. LSA does a very good job with tuning guns for the cans and ammo that you use. Their customer service has been exemplary in my experience.

I have had fewer problems with LSA than with BCM (24 guns) and SOLGW (6 guns). We had one that needed a lighter buffer spring for consistent bolt lock on an empty magazine and one that developed a small burr on the bolt catch that made it harder than normal to manually lock open by a user. In both cases the owner responded personally to effect repairs or delivered parts for me to do it. We are close by.

I have two LSA guns. One that I carried on duty has about 9000 rounds on it with no issues. It still shoots right at 1 moa with match ammo. I moved to a red dot rifle for work example reasons and still have the LSA set up with a Razor 1-6 for home. I also have an LSA 12.5" gun with a can.

We have 8 Aero complete guns in service. Four of them developed issues in the initial class. One broken buffer spring, one broken extractor, one broken bolt, and one had the gas block offset far enough to cause cycling issues. I have had two broken bolts in the succeeding years from the four guns that went unscathed through the initial class. As has been said, the the Aero receiver sets are fine, but avoid any of their parts.

We have quite a few Daniel Defense guns, but we no longer authorize them for new purchases. We kept having issues with the handguard coming loose. When I contacted the company, they said that it happens from time to time and I should just pull the handguards and loc-tite the screws when I get them.

No company is immune to some QC issues squeaking through, but LSA, BCM, Colt, SOLGW, Sionics, etc have excellent track records.

Lone Star Armory is happy to take my money for the guns I own and provides an excellent product and customer service in exchange.

[Wake27]

We have 29 Lone Star Armory guns at our department. They are very solid guns. Six of them are suppressed guns. LSA does a very good job with tuning guns for the cans and ammo that you use. Their customer service has been exemplary in my experience.

I have had fewer problems with LSA than with BCM (24 guns) and SOLGW (6 guns). We had one that needed a lighter buffer spring for consistent bolt lock on an empty magazine and one that developed a small burr on the bolt catch that made it harder than normal to manually lock open by a user. In both cases the owner responded personally to effect repairs or delivered parts for me to do it. We are close by.

I have two LSA guns. One that I carried on duty has about 9000 rounds on it with no issues. It still shoots right at 1 moa with match ammo. I moved to a red dot rifle for work example reasons and still have the LSA set up with a Razor 1-6 for home. I also have an LSA 12.5" gun with a can.

We have 8 Aero complete guns in service. Four of them developed issues in the initial class. One broken buffer spring, one broken extractor, one broken bolt, and one had the gas block offset far enough to cause cycling issues. I have had two broken bolts in the succeeding years from the four guns that went unscathed through the initial class. As has been said, the the Aero receiver sets are fine, but avoid any of their parts.

We have quite a few Daniel Defense guns, but we no longer authorize them for new purchases. We kept having issues with the handguard coming loose. When I contacted the company, they said that it happens from time to time and I should just pull the handguards and loc-tite the screws when I get them.

No company is immune to some QC issues squeaking through, but LSA, BCM, Colt, SOLGW, Sionics, etc have excellent track records.

Lone Star Armory is happy to take my money for the guns I own and provides an excellent product and customer service in exchange.

That's a wide variety. Mind sharing what was up with the BCMs?

[Andy T]

We have quite a few Daniel Defense guns, but we no longer authorize them for new purchases. We kept having issues with the handguard coming loose. When I contacted the company, they said that it happens from time to time and I should just pull the handguards and loc-tite the screws when I get them.


What model handguard was coming loose? What were the symptoms?

[Mercworx]

Thanks for all the help in here. I purchased a Colt 6960, have some cash to spare for a quality optic and sling.

[Sig_Fiend]

When building those uppers, always remember the first rule of The Joy of Building AR-15's™:

97249

[azant]

That's a wide variety. Mind sharing what was up with the BCMs?

We have one BCM with a slightly long magazine well, so some PMags won't lock in. I've seen this with a Troy as well. We had two BCMs where the PNT hammer was missing the detent and spring that locates the hammer on the hammer pin, which allowed the hammer pins to walk.

As far as variety, I hadn't even gotten to telling you about all the Bushmaster, DPMS, Rock River, and more nightmares that I have. In the distant past, there were no rules and they are all grandfathered. Now they can buy Colt, LSA, BCM, and SOLGW.

[azant]

What model handguard was coming loose? What were the symptoms?

I don't remember the model of handguard, but it had four screws that screwed into a proprietary barrel nut. The screws would back out in a string of fire and it wasn't apparent until the iron sight zero changed, or someone noticed the movement of the handguard. Cops don't always notice issues like a loosening handguard as soon as they should. The ones I put Loc-tite on are still tight and work fine, even though the witness marks have long since rubbed off. I grew out of the buy a gun and take it to the gunsmith phase when I left 1911s. As an armorer I don't need the extra work of even the easy task of re-applying screws like that with thread locker. Otherwise, the DD guns have been fine.

[HCM]

Interesting info.

I recently bought a slightly used complete AERO AR15, so if I replaced the LPK with a premium brand it would be good to go?

Thanks.

No. Their receivers and barrels (ballistic advantage) are good to go but all the other stuff that they don’t make is questionable. They’ve also had issues with improper assembly.

Everyone has their own definition of good to go, but for me complete Aero guns or complete Aero receivers are range use / PSA equivalent.

Ben Steoger has been shooting a couple Aero ARs pretty hard during development work for his adoptive rifle book. However, he’s only using them at the range and he recently broke a firing pin.

I’ve seen assembly related issues with gas blocks and gas tubes in arrow guns and I’ve seen some issues with their buffers self-destructing at fairly low round counts.

[GyroF-16]

Re: Aero guns:


No. Their receivers and barrels (ballistic advantage) are good to go but all the other stuff that they don’t make is questionable. They’ve also had issues with improper assembly.

Everyone has their own definition of good to go, but for me complete Aero guns or complete Aero receivers are range use / PSA equivalent.

Ben Steoger has been shooting a couple Aero ARs pretty hard during development work for his adoptive rifle book. However, he’s only using them at the range and he recently broke a firing pin.

I’ve seen assembly related issues with gas blocks and gas tubes in arrow guns and I’ve seen some issues with their buffers self-destructing at fairly low round counts.

How did the buffers fail?

I have some Aero uppers with Geissele BCGs in them, and the gas systems seem solid, so I’m feeling pretty confident so far, but I am running an Aero H3 buffer in one (300 BLK), so want to know what to watch for.
Or, I could just swap in a Geissele H3 buffer that I have on hand.

[HCM]

Re: Aero guns:



How did the buffers fail?

I have some Aero uppers with Geissele BCGs in them, and the gas systems seem solid, so I’m feeling pretty confident so far, but I am running an Aero H3 buffer in one (300 BLK), so want to know what to watch for.
Or, I could just swap in a Geissele H3 buffer that I have on hand.

Essentially disintegrated at the back where the rubber tip and roll pin are. Appeared to be a materials / QC issue.

[spyderco monkey]

Any love for PWS and Lantac? Curious to hear user’s thoughts on those two brands.

I’m also an LWRC fan as I’ve had great success with one of their piston guns (14.5” pinned) and their DI (16” kind of annoying proprietary rail, would prefer MLOK).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LWRCi now offers multiple MLOK rail styles for their DI rifles to replace the older proprietary rail.

https://www.lwrci.com/DI-Direct-Impingement-Parts_c_27.html

https://www.lwrci.com/assets/images/icdiu5b16mlxs.jpg

I dig the LWCI rails; with their extended length upper receiver that the rail screws into instead of the barrel nut, it's sort of a 'semi monolithic.' Would love to see if it makes a difference in terms of preventing laser shift compared to a normal handguard mount.

[Nephrology]

No. Their receivers and barrels (ballistic advantage) are good to go but all the other stuff that they don’t make is questionable. They’ve also had issues with improper assembly.

Everyone has their own definition of good to go, but for me complete Aero guns or complete Aero receivers are range use / PSA equivalent.

Ben Steoger has been shooting a couple Aero ARs pretty hard during development work for his adoptive rifle book. However, he’s only using them at the range and he recently broke a firing pin.

I’ve seen assembly related issues with gas blocks and gas tubes in arrow guns and I’ve seen some issues with their buffers self-destructing at fairly low round counts.

I'm actually pretty happy with their handguards too. I still own one assembled 11.5" Aero upper that was once-over'd by a smith when I sent it to have the GB pinned.

It's overgassed for sure but that's my only complaint. Of note the BCG is a Bootleg adjustable (it won't run a Turbo K w/o one) and not an Aero. I am not sure I would trust those, and don't really want to spend the $100 on an AGB for an upper i bought for about $300 total.

Otherwise though it's a quite adequate wolf hose and I have not had any failures in ~2k rounds. BCG is set to one off suppressed and it runs everything. Great bargain.

[usmc_k9_vet]

LWRCi now offers multiple MLOK rail styles for their DI rifles to replace the older proprietary rail.

https://www.lwrci.com/DI-Direct-Impingement-Parts_c_27.html

https://www.lwrci.com/assets/images/icdiu5b16mlxs.jpg

I dig the LWCI rails; with their extended length upper receiver that the rail screws into instead of the barrel nut, it's sort of a 'semi monolithic.' Would love to see if it makes a difference in terms of preventing laser shift compared to a normal handguard mount.

Cool stuff. Thanks for this info. I may look into getting one sometime in the future. I’ve got the gun set up pretty well for the time being, but MLOK might be nice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

I'm actually pretty happy with their handguards too. I still own one assembled 11.5" Aero upper that was once-over'd by a smith when I sent it to have the GB pinned.

It's overgassed for sure but that's my only complaint. Of note the BCG is a Bootleg adjustable (it won't run a Turbo K w/o one) and not an Aero. I am not sure I would trust those, and don't really want to spend the $100 on an AGB for an upper i bought for about $300 total.

Otherwise though it's a quite adequate wolf hose and I have not had any failures in ~2k rounds. BCG is set to one off suppressed and it runs everything. Great bargain.

The key to Aero stuff seems to be the stuff they make in house is ok, but they go cheap on everything else.

[Nephrology]

The key to Aero stuff seems to be the stuff they make in house is ok, but they go cheap on everything else.

Yeah fortunately none of the small parts in my upper seem to have any issues but they are less likely to be an issue anyway. I built a bunch of my ARs using their enhanced lowers which compare pretty favorably vs others in the same price range. The machining is very nicely done and the finish is durable and evenly applied. I like their enhanced lower features (integrated trigger guard, threaded bolt catch pin) that are subtle but dramatically simplify assembly. That said I used CMMG lower parts kits and Centurion BCGs for a reason.

For assembled budget uppers I think there are better options. I still have a pair of rifles with uppers from DSG Arms that use comparable parts (BA barrels, BCM handguards though I think they've moved to in-house handguards since) but were well assembled and have functioned great without modification.

[O4L]

I may have missed it but is anyone in the know on POF AR15s?

Sent from my LM-Q720 using Tapatalk

[SwampDweller]

Just an update on my final decision. I ended up ordering a Daniel Defense M4v9 (16" midlength gas w/ 15" quad rail). Some day I'll try out M-lok, but today is not that day. Looking forward to getting and shooting my new rifle!

[Paul Blackburn]

Just an update on my final decision. I ended up ordering a Daniel Defense M4v9 (16" midlength gas w/ 15" quad rail). Some day I'll try out M-lok, but today is not that day. Looking forward to getting and shooting my new rifle!


Why the 15" rail?

Thats a lot of extra rail and extra weight especially in a quad.

[SwampDweller]

Why the 15" rail?

Thats a lot of extra rail and extra weight especially in a quad.

No particular reason. I found a really good deal on it through my job. I was gonna go with the RIS III but this kinda fell into my lap. The DDM4 quad rail is still lighter than my M16A4 upper with KAC M5 RAS.

[TOTS]

OP, congrats! I’m looking at DD as well, so let me know what you think.

All, what’s the 14.5 version of the DD M4 V7?

[HCM]

OP, congrats! I’m looking at DD as well, so let me know what you think.

All, what’s the 14.5 version of the DD M4 V7?

The V7 SLW

https://danieldefense.com/ddm4-v7slw.html

[SecondsCount]

No particular reason. I found a really good deal on it through my job. I was gonna go with the RIS III but this kinda fell into my lap. The DDM4 quad rail is still lighter than my M16A4 upper with KAC M5 RAS.

You'll be fine with what you chose. That's a solid rail and will serve you well.

[rob_s]

Why the 15" rail?

Thats a lot of extra rail and extra weight especially in a quad.

Among other things, it appears that if you filter the DD rifle listing page for midlength gas, picatinny hand guard, and 5.56, that’s the only option.

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/ar-15-rifles.html

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/ar-15-rifles.html?caliber=6&mounting_system=391&rifle_gas_system=102

If you include carbine-length gas
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/ar-15-rifles.html?caliber=6&mounting_system=391&rifle_gas_system=102,101
You get at least one marginally more sensible option, but it then has (a) a carbine length gas system (which will get you ridiculed on the internet) and (b) a 14.5” barrel with pinned muzzle device (which, ironically, will seemingly NOT get you ridiculed on the internet, despite being rather pointless).

I would personally love to see the handguard from the DDM4A1 (https://danieldefense.com/m4a1.html) installed on the DDM4V9 (https://danieldefense.com/ddm4-v9.html) (which seems like it’d be an easy enough swap?). Or, as much as I prefer the picatinny as well, I might opt for the DD4 RIII (https://danieldefense.com/dd4-riii.html) as I like a little exposed barrel.

97415

[SwampDweller]

Among other things, it appears that if you filter the DD rifle listing page for midlength gas, picatinny hand guard, and 5.56, that’s the only option.

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/ar-15-rifles.html

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/ar-15-rifles.html?caliber=6&mounting_system=391&rifle_gas_system=102

If you include carbine-length gas
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/ar-15-rifles.html?caliber=6&mounting_system=391&rifle_gas_system=102,101
You get at least one marginally more sensible option, but it then has (a) a carbine length gas system (which will get you ridiculed on the internet) and (b) a 14.5” barrel with pinned muzzle device (which, ironically, will seemingly NOT get you ridiculed on the internet, despite being rather pointless).

I would personally love to see the handguard from the DDM4A1 (https://danieldefense.com/m4a1.html) installed on the DDM4V9 (https://danieldefense.com/ddm4-v9.html) (which seems like it’d be an easy enough swap?). Or, as much as I prefer the picatinny as well, I might opt for the DD4 RIII (https://danieldefense.com/dd4-riii.html) as I like a little exposed barrel.
]

I've never understood the ridicule for carbine length gas on the internet. On some certain forums with the way it's talked about, you'd think the guns are jammomatics and borderline useless. Sure, midlength may be more appropriate for such barrel lengths, but a well-made carbine gas gun with a proper spec gas port will just run and run, and they have done so for decades with great reliability. I ordered the midlength to try it out and receive the benefits observed during testing, but if all I could have were 14.5" or 16" carbine gas rifles, I wouldn't sweat it. My old Colt LE6920 has been incredibly reliable and accurate.

Also, I thought I was the only one who still has a preference for picatinny. Wouldn't mind trying the RIS III at some point, though. I think part of why I managed to find a v9 at a pretty good price was because picatinny doesn't sell like it used to. I'm good with that.

ETA: I like the idea of the M4A1 RIS II handguard on the V9. Gives you the toughest handguard available on a 16" midlength gas gun. I might have to consider that down the road, but more than likely I'd keep the v9 as it is and get another rifle to do that to.

[rob_s]

ETA: I like the idea of the M4A1 RIS II handguard on the V9. Gives you the toughest handguard available on a 16" midlength gas gun. I might have to consider that down the road, but more than likely I'd keep the v9 as it is and get another rifle to do that to.

My first thought was “get a complete uppper” but DD doesn’t even have any 16in picatinny 5.56 uppers listed. Two 14.5s, a 10.3, and an 18, but no 16.

https://danieldefense.com/uppers.html?caliber=6&mounting_system=391

Only 16in mid-length are with the full-length Brazilian handguard, although one is then”lw” which is intriguing.
https://danieldefense.com/uppers.html?caliber=6&rifle_gas_system=102

[SecondsCount]

I've never understood the ridicule for carbine length gas on the internet. On some certain forums with the way it's talked about, you'd think the guns are jammomatics and borderline useless. Sure, midlength may be more appropriate for such barrel lengths, but a well-made carbine gas gun with a proper spec gas port will just run and run, and they have done so for decades with great reliability. I ordered the midlength to try it out and receive the benefits observed during testing, but if all I could have were 14.5" or 16" carbine gas rifles, I wouldn't sweat it. My old Colt LE6920 has been incredibly reliable and accurate.

Also, I thought I was the only one who still has a preference for picatinny. Wouldn't mind trying the RIS III at some point, though. I think part of why I managed to find a v9 at a pretty good price was because picatinny doesn't sell like it used to. I'm good with that.

ETA: I like the idea of the M4A1 RIS II handguard on the V9. Gives you the toughest handguard available on a 16" midlength gas gun. I might have to consider that down the road, but more than likely I'd keep the v9 as it is and get another rifle to do that to.

No ridicule from me on the carbine length system, I still have one but rarely run it anymore. I'm not going to get into the argument of which is better but I like the recoil pulse of a midlength system over a carbine system. I've also never had to worry about H buffers, extractor springs, o-rings, etc with a middy. I will say that if you are running steel cased or lower powered 223 ammo, the carbine length seems to be more suited to that.

[gato naranja]

Also, I thought I was the only one who still has a preference for picatinny. Wouldn't mind trying the RIS III at some point, though. I think part of why I managed to find a v9 at a pretty good price was because picatinny doesn't sell like it used to. I'm good with that.

I got a DDM4v9 LW because it checked a couple of boxes that were important to me and apparently not many others. On the other hand, a some of my compadres who bought "more practical" AR's in the same timeframe have traded them away, or changed rails, or what have you, while I keep being satisfied with my choice.

[MistWolf]

Gas port diameter is more important than carbine vs middie.

There are advantages to a 14.5 over 16 inch barrel. They’re subtle, but enough for me that they outweigh any perceived disadvantage of having a pinned muzzle device. I say perceived because I don’t find removing a pinned muzzle device to be difficult.

I prefer the 14.5” SOCOM carbine barrel over the 16” government profile middie.

[Paul Blackburn]

Gas port diameter is more important than carbine vs middie.

There are advantages to a 14.5 over 16 inch barrel. They’re subtle, but enough for me that they outweigh any perceived disadvantage of having a pinned muzzle device. I say perceived because I don’t find removing a pinned muzzle device to be difficult.

I prefer the 14.5” SOCOM carbine barrel over the 16” government profile middie.

What are the advantages to the 14.5 pin and welded over the 16"?

[Wake27]

What are the advantages to the 14.5 pin and welded over the 16"?

It’s shorter and lighter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Andy T]

What are the advantages to the 14.5 pin and welded over the 16"?

If you are comparing the same barrel profile across different lengths, then use, the shorter is lighter. However, I have a 16" BCM ELW with their early super light KMR rail that is lighter than a 14.5" p/w BCM gov profile with MMR.

Another benefit of 14.5 SOCOM is that this was the spec that was tested by SOCOM.

The 14.5 does feel "handier" will probably handle slightly better with a supressor.

[MistWolf]

What are the advantages to the 14.5 pin and welded over the 16"?

I prefer the balance & handling.

The Colt 14.5 SOCOM barrel only weighs about 1.5 ounces more than a Colt 16 inch government profile barrel and has most of its mass under the handguard and around the chamber for better heat management and, in my opinion, better handling.

The added bonus is, the 14.5 just looks right:cool:

[Ed L]

I've never understood the ridicule for carbine length gas on the internet. On some certain forums with the way it's talked about, you'd think the guns are jammomatics and borderline useless. Sure, midlength may be more appropriate for such barrel lengths, but a well-made carbine gas gun with a proper spec gas port will just run and run, and they have done so for decades with great reliability. I ordered the midlength to try it out and receive the benefits observed during testing, but if all I could have were 14.5" or 16" carbine gas rifles, I wouldn't sweat it. My old Colt LE6920 has been incredibly reliable and accurate.

I still see Colt 6920s recommended almost universally when someone asks what their first AR should be. Mid lengths seem to be more optimal and have a better recoil impulse--though we really are not talking about much recoil to begin with. I would not sweat the midlength thing, even though I own own one. I've personally shot several high round count classes with carbine length gas systems with issues so minimal that they fall into the acceptable range. I did a two day Jeff Gonzales Trident Concepts carbine class that was probably the heaviest round count class I had been to: about 1800 rounds over a 2 day period, and had one stove pipe. At the time I was shooting an old Colt AR15A2 carbine. I also shot a 2-day Magpul Dynamics class that was about 1500-1600 rounds and had no problems once I eliminated a problem magazine that gave me two failures to feed where it was clear that the feed lips were hindering the round. I was running a Colt 6940 for that class.

[John Hearne]

Any thoughts on American Defense Manufacturing (ADM)? I picked up one of their ambi lowers several years back and really like it. I've been thinking about grabbing one of their complete rifles.

[Ed L]

I prefer the balance & handling.

The Colt 14.5 SOCOM barrel only weighs about 1.5 ounces more than a Colt 16 inch government profile barrel and has most of its mass under the handguard and around the chamber for better heat management and, in my opinion, better handling.

The added bonus is, the 14.5 just looks right:cool:

I have found that the 14.5" SOCOM barrels to shoot tighter groups than the standard 6920 barrel. Also, it should handle heat better. None of this is to say that the standard 6920 barrel can't handle heat or is inaccurate. I have also found that the Colt 6940 with the free float handguards, also known as the Colt M4 Monolithic, tends to shoot tighter groups than the 6920. None of this is to suggest that the 6920 is inaccurate, but rather that different versions may perform a bit better. The last time I remember shooting a Colt 6920 for accuracy with an optic I was getting about 1.75" 5 shot groups using an ACOG at 100 yards. I think those results may have been with 77 grain ammo. I believe that this was in 2010ish. This is just one gun being shot, but I certainly believe this represents adequate performance.

[HCM]

Any thoughts on American Defense Manufacturing (ADM)? I picked up one of their ambi lowers several years back and really like it. I've been thinking about grabbing one of their complete rifles.

Good to go from everything I've seen and the sample of one I've gotten hands on.

[ASH556]

Gas port diameter is more important than carbine vs middie.

There are advantages to a 14.5 over 16 inch barrel. They’re subtle, but enough for me that they outweigh any perceived disadvantage of having a pinned muzzle device. I say perceived because I don’t find removing a pinned muzzle device to be difficult.

I prefer the 14.5” SOCOM carbine barrel over the 16” government profile middie.

Preach on!

[Wake27]

Any thoughts on American Defense Manufacturing (ADM)? I picked up one of their ambi lowers several years back and really like it. I've been thinking about grabbing one of their complete rifles.

I’ve only seen good things aside from the weight. They’re beefy from what I’ve heard.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Sero Sed Serio]

A little late to the thread, but have been following and meaning to chime in.

I just purchased a Sionics 12.5” pistol, and while I haven’t shot it yet (saving up for an optic), I am very impressed with the build quality and the customer service. When I placed my order their website had a 2 month lead time, but my FFL had the “pistol” 4 days after ordering. The only downside to Sionics is the lack of options. You can have your black rifles in any configuration you want, just as long as it’s the Sionics configuration.

I’ve had multiple BCMs over the years, and they have been excellent. Currently my primary training rifle is a 16” mid-length. While I haven’t shot groups for accuracy (mostly limited to a 25 yd. indoor range), when shooting offhand my 6933 seems to shoot noticeably tighter. Of course this could be do to a number of factors, but I tend to believe the anecdotes about BCMs not grouping as tightly as others. At the same time, none of my BCMs have been exhibited what could be considered accuracy “problems,” and I’ve stretched them out to 200+. I like that you can get a bunch of different factory configurations, and really like that you can Lego uppers and lowers and save 10% vs. a complete gun.

I’ve had multiple Colts over the years, and currently have a pair of 6933s: one from 2008-09 and one from 2017-18. All of my Colts have been completely reliable, and at one point my training 6920 went around 900 rounds of dusty desert shooting with no cleaning, just oil squirted into the bolt through the ejection port. My latest 6933 is a bit tighter and more “refined” than the earlier gun. Interestingly enough, on the topic of “retro” rifles, I set up the later SBR almost identically to the way I set up the first one about a decade earlier: DDM4 rail, Magpul CTR stock, Aimpoint Micro, and Magpul MIAD grip. The only difference is the newer SBR will have an X300 at 12 o’clock, while the older one has a Surefire Scout at 10:30 (this gun also has a wrap-round rail and the factory fixed sight, so 12:00 isn’t an option). I’ve seen some 2020 and later Colts in shops that didn’t have the fit and finish of the earlier guns, but didn’t dig into them enough to see if there was anything objectionable where it mattered. I personally wouldn’t hesitate to purchase another Colt, particularly the 6933s for a factory SBR.

I’m very impressed with my Centurion as well, but can’t really recommend them as an option given how rarely they are available. I waited over 6 months to order mine, and despite regular (and excellent) communication with the company, I only got it because I happened to get lucky and check the site when they were in stock.

Up-thread there was discussion about the benefits of hammer-forged barrels: I have a BCM pistol lower waiting for an upper, and am debating between the BFH 11.5 and ELW 11.5. I’d much prefer the ELW profile, which isn’t available in BFH, but I’d the hammer-forged enough of an advantage to justify going with the govt. profile over the ELW?

[Paul Blackburn]

The BCM ELW barrels have been out of stock for quite some time.

[Mark D]

Some folks might be interested in BCM blem uppers reduced for Black Friday: https://bravocompanyusa.com/sale-specials-closeouts/ (https://bravocompanyusa.com/sale-specials-closeouts/)

Cross posted in the BF thread.

[Wake27]

A little late to the thread, but have been following and meaning to chime in.

I just purchased a Sionics 12.5” pistol, and while I haven’t shot it yet (saving up for an optic), I am very impressed with the build quality and the customer service. When I placed my order their website had a 2 month lead time, but my FFL had the “pistol” 4 days after ordering. The only downside to Sionics is the lack of options. You can have your black rifles in any configuration you want, just as long as it’s the Sionics configuration.

I’ve had multiple BCMs over the years, and they have been excellent. Currently my primary training rifle is a 16” mid-length. While I haven’t shot groups for accuracy (mostly limited to a 25 yd. indoor range), when shooting offhand my 6933 seems to shoot noticeably tighter. Of course this could be do to a number of factors, but I tend to believe the anecdotes about BCMs not grouping as tightly as others. At the same time, none of my BCMs have been exhibited what could be considered accuracy “problems,” and I’ve stretched them out to 200+. I like that you can get a bunch of different factory configurations, and really like that you can Lego uppers and lowers and save 10% vs. a complete gun.

I’ve had multiple Colts over the years, and currently have a pair of 6933s: one from 2008-09 and one from 2017-18. All of my Colts have been completely reliable, and at one point my training 6920 went around 900 rounds of dusty desert shooting with no cleaning, just oil squirted into the bolt through the ejection port. My latest 6933 is a bit tighter and more “refined” than the earlier gun. Interestingly enough, on the topic of “retro” rifles, I set up the later SBR almost identically to the way I set up the first one about a decade earlier: DDM4 rail, Magpul CTR stock, Aimpoint Micro, and Magpul MIAD grip. The only difference is the newer SBR will have an X300 at 12 o’clock, while the older one has a Surefire Scout at 10:30 (this gun also has a wrap-round rail and the factory fixed sight, so 12:00 isn’t an option). I’ve seen some 2020 and later Colts in shops that didn’t have the fit and finish of the earlier guns, but didn’t dig into them enough to see if there was anything objectionable where it mattered. I personally wouldn’t hesitate to purchase another Colt, particularly the 6933s for a factory SBR.

I’m very impressed with my Centurion as well, but can’t really recommend them as an option given how rarely they are available. I waited over 6 months to order mine, and despite regular (and excellent) communication with the company, I only got it because I happened to get lucky and check the site when they were in stock.

Up-thread there was discussion about the benefits of hammer-forged barrels: I have a BCM pistol lower waiting for an upper, and am debating between the BFH 11.5 and ELW 11.5. I’d much prefer the ELW profile, which isn’t available in BFH, but I’d the hammer-forged enough of an advantage to justify going with the govt. profile over the ELW?

I did and would again go ELW over BFH.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Coal Train]

Any change to this list HCM? I want to get an easy button AR that works and is accurate.

Turn key and widely available ?

Assuming use of quality 5.56 or duty grade .223 ?

In order:

DD V7 MLOK
DD V5
DD M4A1 / Mk 18

FN Tac 2 or Tac 3
FN Michigan state police model
FN M4A1

Colt 6960
Colt 6920 variants (trooper, federal patrol carbine M4A1 etc)

BCM MLOK or 1913

SOLGW M76 or M89

HK MR556 (current lighter version)

[RONK]

Sir,I would also consider a Geissele Automatics Super Duty Mod 1.

[HCM]

Any change to this list HCM? I want to get an easy button AR that works and is accurate.

I’d agree with adding the Geissele super duty and border patrol models to this list.

Specifically, though I would not include the entry level guns from Geissele or FN (which I believe FN calls the guardian).

The way they reach the price point on those models is by putting their name on a gun built from cheaper parts from other sources.

Sionics and Centurion arms are two other solid duty grade options, but I’m not sure how widely available they are, they are something you’d have to seek out in order or order uppers and lowers.

If you’re on a hard budget, another option might be seeking out a S&W M&P 15 (not the sport). The actual non-sport MMPI is a decent rifle, it’s just usually not worth the $$$ vs a Colt etc since it’s a 1/9 twist barrel but they have good quality receivers, lower parts, and bolt carrier groups. You can find them now as police trade-ins in the $400-$500 range.

Kings Firearms currently has some police trade-in M&P 15 for $419.

[Robert Mitchum]

I guess this is hard use or abuse.


1055 - radian mod 1
1010 - Sig Spear LT
901 - Geiselle Super Duty
743 - Aero M4E1
722 - PWS mk111
686 - DD M4 V7
661 - Aero M16A4
643 - Trybe w/ DD gas tube
601 - DD M4 RIS3
574 - KAC SR-15 mod2
540 - POF 415
360 - Jacob Grey ULW
Knights Armament SR-15 Round count 574



https://youtu.be/eeqd_51NoCU

[RealSelf]

I guess this is hard use or abuse.


1055 - radian mod 1
1010 - Sig Spear LT
901 - Geiselle Super Duty
743 - Aero M4E1
722 - PWS mk111
686 - DD M4 V7
661 - Aero M16A4
643 - Trybe w/ DD gas tube
601 - DD M4 RIS3
574 - KAC SR-15 mod2
540 - POF 415
360 - Jacob Grey ULW
Knights Armament SR-15 Round count 574



https://youtu.be/eeqd_51NoCU

It's definitely hard use but it's also only a sample of one for each rifle. In order for this to be a compelling data point you'd need to repeat this with multiple examples from each and the more copies tested the stronger the data would be. At this point, one rifle of each could easily be dismissed as suggestive but entirely inconclusive to have much relevance. The other problem is that people will look at those numbers and allow their bias to rationalize the data and say, well it sort of matchest what I think the order should be based on 'quality' or 'price' or whatever.

[WobblyPossum]

I guess this is hard use or abuse.


1055 - radian mod 1
1010 - Sig Spear LT
901 - Geiselle Super Duty
743 - Aero M4E1
722 - PWS mk111
686 - DD M4 V7
661 - Aero M16A4
643 - Trybe w/ DD gas tube
601 - DD M4 RIS3
574 - KAC SR-15 mod2
540 - POF 415
360 - Jacob Grey ULW
Knights Armament SR-15 Round count 574



https://youtu.be/eeqd_51NoCU

The Geissele folks got the rifle from this guy to do an autopsy. The gas tube got so hot it warped and left the upper receiver so it couldn’t provide gas to the gas key anymore. They replaced it and the rifle functioned fine afterwards.

[DMCutter]

They failed a Caracal 816 at something like 540 rounds because they shot it on the adverse setting and the overgassing cooked the gas block detent spring so the plug wouldn't stay in place. Evidently it was fine after the spring was replaced. They said they were going to retest it on the right gas setting but I haven't bothered to search to see if it was done. These guys are really too painfully Bubba to watch.