In a world of dumb LE shit, this may be the dumbest

[Lon]

Introducing The Alternative:

https://www.alternativeballistics.com/


https://youtu.be/_E5mJrkjOSY

[Gumby]

Coming to blue states, shortly.

[blues]

This is a joke, right?

April in October?

[Lon]

This is a joke, right?

April in October?

Only if Police1.com is in the habit of doing October Fools jokes.

[Blades]

Didn't they try this thing a few years ago?

[Totem Polar]

Didn't they try this thing a few years ago?

Yeah, this one is a re-tard.

[Joe in PNG]

Derp is like herpes- it never really goes away.

[BehindBlueI's]

This idiotic notion of a device has been "a thing" since at least 2015. I can't imagine how the company keeps the doors open, surely there aren't that many gullible 'investors' out there are they? WTF have they sold the product to?

[blues]

The idea must've struck them like a bolt of lightning. :rolleyes:


(Don't bolt me bro'.)

This reminds me of the old Ron Popeil commercials of yesteryear. Sad.

[jnc36rcpd]

I suspect ideas like this find a bigger market in some overseas markets than with u.S. law enforcement. I can also see this thing being purchased by some security companies and private citizens.

[the_tacticallopath]

Yeah I remember seeing this several years ago. I'm unsurprised that it's not found wide employment.

[CleverNickname]

Didn't they try this thing a few years ago?
I remember making fun of this on another board at least 5 years ago.

I've never seen it actually used IRL on a bodycam or something, just in demo videos.

[feudist]

When the Good Idea Fairy wants to up her ESG score for BLM grant money.

[RevolverJIM]

When I did freeze frame of the video, right at the instant of firing, it appears that the projectile departs the pistol at a very high angle making me think that the projectile would hit the target much higher than the point of aim or possibly miss the target completely.

Anyone else see this?

[JohnO]

Dam Sarge! I didn't intend to shoot him. The stupid doohickey they issued us fell off my Glock as I was pulling the trigger. How much trouble am I in?

[titsonritz]

I'm holding out for the phaser.

[Robert Mitchum]

https://youtu.be/_dGh7p1tZmk

[MDFA]

What could possibly go wrong?:rolleyes:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When I did freeze frame of the video, right at the instant of firing, it appears that the projectile departs the pistol at a very high angle making me think that the projectile would hit the target much higher than the point of aim or possibly miss the target completely.

Anyone else see this?

Isn't that the cover is the thing that goes up? In another clip, you see it go up and the stunning projectile goes at the target?

One should send this video to the shoot 'em to wound sheriff that is popular now in some circles.

What ever happened to the 12 gauge shotgun Taser round that was a self contained shocking round? That was supposedly a big breakthrough? Side note - when I was a kid I read Tom Swift junior books and he evented an electric rifle that shot shocking rounds. A little while ago I saw on some streamer, a show Tom Swift Jr. I was all hyped up and the show was one of the worst pieces of crap, I have ever seen.

[RevolverJIM]

Isn't that the cover is the thing that goes up? In another clip, you see it go up and the stunning projectile goes at the target?

One should send this video to the shoot 'em to wound sheriff that is popular now in some circles.

What ever happened to the 12 gauge shotgun Taser round that was a self contained shocking round? That was supposedly a big breakthrough? Side note - when I was a kid I read Tom Swift junior books and he evented an electric rifle that shot shocking rounds. A little while ago I saw on some streamer, a show Tom Swift Jr. I was all hyped up and the show was one of the worst pieces of crap, I have ever seen.


I think you're right. I should have seen that.

[kwb377]

When you employ "The Alternative" as a less-lethal option on the suspect, but you've also been trained to perform double-taps your entire career...

96406

[jnc36rcpd]

I looked at the shotgun-launched Taser rounds several years ago. It seemed like an excellent concept until I saw the cost of the cartridges. The training rounds were practically the cost of the live rounds.

We all know that more training with a Taser will provide a better result than less training, but the handheld Tasers are inherently simple in deployment. Moreover, you can do some training with used cartridges. If you'd want to get good results from the shotgun-launched cart, you'd have to do live fire. That cost would quickly rise if you wanted to deploy the weapon to patrol rather than just SWAT or perhaps fugitive teams. I suspect many agencies decided to stick with impact munitions rather than the more effective Taser rounds.

[GearFondler]

When you employ "The Alternative" as a less-lethal option on the suspect, but you've also been trained to perform double-taps your entire career...

96406Oh, that's easy... You just drop the mag before deploying this thing.

[Caballoflaco]

96431
Oh, that's easy... You just drop the mag before deploying this thing.

[JCN]

I just bought three to test.































Just kidding, this is even too dumb for me to spend money on by my low standards.

[Hambo]

I just bought three to test.

Just kidding, this is even too dumb for me to spend money on by my low standards.

For a moment, I was so proud of you.

[psalms144.1]

I can't believe this thing is still on the market, it's so stupid it makes my teeth ache.

Copy all on the shotgun Tasers, but the concept is so FUCKING COOL. Kinda like the Taser Claymore they were marketing for a while. I was in a LOT of staff meetings where I would have hit the clacker on one of those even if I was in the downrange area.

[Jason M]

This idiotic notion of a device has been "a thing" since at least 2015. I can't imagine how the company keeps the doors open, surely there aren't that many gullible 'investors' out there are they? WTF have they sold the product to?

The same people purchased these...


https://youtu.be/k5Mgc84iLvU

[BehindBlueI's]

The same people purchased these...


https://youtu.be/k5Mgc84iLvU


Nah. We're "testing" those wrap-em-up devices from the Good Idea Fairy, but can't stoop low enough to try the "lethally launched less lethal" doo-dad. :D

[Shades]

I suspect ideas like this find a bigger market in some overseas markets than with u.S. law enforcement. I can also see this thing being purchased by some security companies and private citizens.

Eckshually, I believe this just might appeal to our Cousins across the Pond. Hand these out to officers armed with single-shot Glocks. I mean, these are the folks who deployed a spring-propelled anti-tank weapon in WW 2, the PIAT. (Oh, damn, Nigel, I believe we've irritated that Tiger tank crew quite badly.)

[Wondering Beard]

Eckshually, I believe this just might appeal to our Cousins across the Pond. Hand these out to officers armed with single-shot Glocks. I mean, these are the folks who deployed a spring-propelled anti-tank weapon in WW 2, the PIAT. (Oh, damn, Nigel, I believe we've irritated that Tiger tank crew quite badly.)

Err..



https://i.redd.it/osqscvyi2hu81.jpg

[Caballoflaco]

Eckshually, I believe this just might appeal to our Cousins across the Pond. Hand these out to officers armed with single-shot Glocks. I mean, these are the folks who deployed a spring-propelled anti-tank weapon in WW 2, the PIAT. (Oh, damn, Nigel, I believe we've irritated that Tiger tank crew quite badly.)

If we’re going to go all “eckshually” the PIAT was a self-recocking spigot mortar that could Knock out most German armored vehicles. It had no back blast and could be fired from confined spaces and used in an indirect fire role at the squad level with an effective range of 350ish meters. In post combat interviews with Canadian Officers it was ranked as more liked and effective than even the Bren gun.

Link to paper on the Canadian Survey
https://qspace.library.queensu.ca/bitstream/handle/1974/1081/Engen_Robert_C_200803_MA.pdf;jsessionid=3CF5C33BEF 7604827A33629DB7D4237F?sequence=1

From the Survey

The PIAT was listed as being “outstandingly effective” far more than any other weapon (it was listed as such in 74 surveys). This was due not only to its tank-killing power, but also owing to the fact that its high-explosive bomb could also be put to good use against “soft” infantry targets, either in direct or indirect roles, making it a good source of suppressing fire. Furthermore, only three officers listed the PIAT as being an “ineffective” weapon."

Or lwarch a video starring a small arms expert and historian who recently wrote a book on the development and history of the PIAT talk about it in this video.

https://youtu.be/TDKIo3KVrE8

[BehindBlueI's]

Let's keep it at least tangentially on topic.

[WobblyPossum]

In a world where poorly trained officers sometimes pull their handgun under stress when wanting to deploy a taser, I can see the occasional incident where someone forgets this thing isn’t on their gun and puts a live round into the suspect. There’s a reason lethal tools and LL tools are separate tools. People aren’t unloading the buck and slugs from their shotguns prior to loading them full of beanbag rounds. If someone is deploying a LL shotgun, it’s generally a designated LL gun that’s only ever loaded with LL and marked as such with yellow or orange furniture to minimize the risk of someone accidentally deploying a lethal tool when a LL tool is warranted. This thing is a couple steps backwards when it comes to best practices regarding lethal and LL tools and needs to be ridiculed until it goes away.

I don’t want LEOs attaching some dingus to their firearms and using actual bullets to propel it at suspects in an effort to gain pain compliance. The potential negative outcomes are so glaringly obvious that the people pushing this thing should be ashamed of themselves. It’s like this thing was invented by someone who has never themselves been in a stressful situation and didn’t bother soliciting feedback from people who had been in such situations. If fielded, there would be numerous incidents of officers negligently shooting suspects when not justified in doing so, and negligently shooting themselves when trying to attach the dingus to their guns in real world applications.

[CWM11B]

Yeah, the device like this that came out several years ago used a big red ball on it's projectile. Looked all the world like Bozo the clown's nose. They actually called on me at work. I told them to GTFO. Same for the Bolo Wrap dudes who called too.
Call me crazy, but I think guns should for deadly force and LL for LL. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

[Coyotesfan97]

The biggest and most successful LL options I’ve seen are OC, launched impact LL, and Tasers. All three have failures but I’ve yet to see anything else wotk like them.

This has to be the worst idea for LL that I’ve ever seen and I’ve seen a fair amount we got for T&E on SWAT. We had a bolt action rifle blank firing net gun our Commander bought without checking with anyone on the team. I guess it worked if you stood completely still while it was shot at you. It was based on the animal version fired from helicopters. Well they have heavy lead weights on the net that help wrap the animal. Those heavy lead weights couldn’t be used on the people version since they’d likely clonk people on the head. It never worked and I don’t think we ever used it on a real incident.

SWAT got the shotgun Taser rounds which were very expensive and never worked right. That was a one time purchase.

The various ways this tool can turn around and bite you on the ass make it an option that should never be deployed. Every WML training I’ve had has said never remove the light from the gun while it’s loaded. But these tools want you to place a device on a loaded pistol during a low frequency high risk event. It’s just a disaster waiting to happen and only village idiots would buy it.

[jnc36rcpd]

My former chief was enthusiastic about the net guns until I researched them. Baltimore City PD had district less-lethal cars at the time outfitted with the net gun, a crowd control OC, and I believe a Taser. The nets never seemed to work well, especially when suspects were indoors or near walls (which is much of Charm City)

Several years later, I watched animal services officer experiment with net guns in the parking lot. Perhaps lack of training was the issue, but if the ASO's couldn't net soda cans in an empty lot, I'm not sure they'd be much good with a rabid dog.

No love for the BolaWrap? I've never used one and I doubt it's a real game changer, but it would seem to be an option in certain circumstances.

[feudist]

Back in the mid 90s they gave us nets for use on mentally ill and fucking suicidal people.
They bought them and committed to policy and training. Had the Reg printed up.
They looked like volleyball nets.
I'm pretty sure they were volleyball nets on collapsing poles.
The first time they did in-service at the range they couldn't wrap up anyone who simply walked around and ducked.
It was a disgrace and even the thickest could see it would result in officer and citizen injury. They made it through about a half dozen training days and quietly tabled it.
Anyone caught consorting with the Good Idea Fairy should be tried for treason and bastinadoed. I swear my department was like the girl that gets her phone number written on the restroom wall.

[Joe in PNG]

It would appear that most gimmicky less lethal apparatus are like fishing lures- items mainly meant to catch fishermen.

[BehindBlueI's]

No love for the BolaWrap? I've never used one and I doubt it's a real game changer, but it would seem to be an option in certain circumstances.


It's a very narrow window for when it can be used. The subject must be stationary, arms to their sides for an arms wrap or feet near each other for a leg wrap. They must be clothed in the area to be targeted. They must not be near a wall, furniture, bushes, etc. If those are met and you have an arrest team ready to make contact you can use it as a distractionary technique. It's fired from a blank cartridge so it's relatively loud in an enclosed space. It generally does wrap around and grab if those conditions are met, but anyone can get it off again pretty quickly. The idea is wrap them up then the arrest team jumps on them. I don't know the ratio of success during out trial phase.

[jnc36rcpd]

Well, that seems like a waste of money and training time and even space on a duty belt or vest. Since many bad guys in my area have BolaWrap defeating strategies like wearing shorts or short-sleeve shirts, what are the consequences if one were to deploy a BolaWrap against such a semi-clad suspect?

[BehindBlueI's]

Well, that seems like a waste of money and training time and even space on a duty belt or vest. Since many bad guys in my area have BolaWrap defeating strategies like wearing shorts or short-sleeve shirts, what are the consequences if one were to deploy a BolaWrap against such a semi-clad suspect?

I think the idea is that they are available, like bean bag launchers, vs being carried constantly. I could be wrong, though. They are still in testing phase. As far as using it incorrectly, I don't think there's a policy in place yet given it's not issued beyond testing officers, but I expect it would be the same as deploying a Taser in a prohibited context. We have a discipline matrix, and without getting real into the weeds, the punishment varies based on the officer's discipline history, the actual harm caused by the out of compliance act, and mitigating/aggravating circumstances (ie the officer thought it was the right thing to do because X and you can kinda sorta see the reasoning even if it's wrong vs acting maliciously or recklessly). It could be anything from a coaching session for a well meaning, but wrong, decision by someone with no history (a 'teachable moment' vs actual discipline) to termination for someone who's repeatedly willingly and recklessly violated the same general order and failed to improve performance related to same.

[PD Sgt.]

I remember when these were first brought out and one or two of our upper level chiefs thought they were worth checking out. We may have gone so far as to actually get a couple to test, but thankfully it stopped there.

What always concerns me is that they continue to get officers willing to step up to endorse these and other such poor ideas. I always wonder if the (paid) spokesperson is a true believer, which is scary in that it means someone with decades on the job never learned from it enough to discern the myriad of concerns such a device brings with it, or if they see it but are so driven (money, or exposure, or both) that they don’t care.

A lot of police managers do not come from backgrounds of extensive street and first hand experience. If you wave a spokesperson with claimed experience in “violent felony investigations,” training, and tactical experience in front of them, and then couple that with the non stop political pressure to lessen the use of force, you are almost guaranteed to get a certain percentage to buy into the nonsense based on the endorser’s credentials alone. It just amazes (appalls) me that an officer would endorse such an item knowing it may end up on the belt of someone actually doing the job.

[Beast17]

A lot of police managers do not come from backgrounds of extensive street and first hand experience.

Understatement of the year.