A pair of homeshop made Clay guns

[P.E. Kelley]

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[DamonL]

I have to ask. How did you make that sight rib? It seems pretty high, like on a trap gun.

[P.E. Kelley]

I have to ask. How did you make that sight rib? It seems pretty high, like on a trap gun.

I "bent" existing things to my will! Stanchions are AR clamp on front sights. Vent rib is...a vent rib. Height is the same
as you would find on any other AR with irons or optics. About 2.5 to 2.75 over the bore centerline.

[Caballoflaco]

I appreciate the gnashing of teeth this will cause. How much has Orthodontist Lobby paid you?

[P.E. Kelley]

I appreciate the gnashing of teeth this will cause. How much has Orthodontist Lobby paid you?

Funny!

Well I just experienced my first ever anywhere Post Deletion on the Shotgun World Forum of the photo I posted here.

Reason? Mod quote> "By definition, Troll post = one made for no reason other then to stir the pot and start arguments, it meets that criteria. Most clubs do not allow that style firearm on their SC courses. Steve"

I admitted to wanting a discussion both Pro and Con and just to answer, with respect, any questions about the guns. I knew I might
be met with some hard Cons, but that is ok. I built the guns to comply with the current NSCA rules. I love the guns and will continues to
compete with them.

Such is life.
Patrick

[Caballoflaco]

Funny!

Well I just experienced my first ever anywhere Post Deletion on the Shotgun World Forum of the photo I posted here.

Reason? Mod quote> "By definition, Troll post = one made for no reason other then to stir the pot and start arguments, it meets that criteria. Most clubs do not allow that style firearm on their SC courses. Steve"

I admitted to wanting a discussion both Pro and Con and just to answer, with respect, any questions about the guns. I knew I might
be met with some hard Cons, but that is ok. I built the guns to comply with the current NSCA rules. I love the guns and will continues to
compete with them.

Such is life.
Patrick

That sucks, but I don’t expect any less when more than half of that forum can only answer technique questions by saying “just focus on the clay and pull the trigger” But I’ll play.

Have you found the dot gun to be more tolerant of a less than perfect mount or movinng your head while tracking the bird than a standard shotgun? I’ve been meaning to throw a dot on one of my shotguns but just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

Does the straight line recoil make pairs or a second shot easier?

I think to me the biggest negative would be that In a game where there is plenty of loading, but you almost never load more than two shells at a time having to load a magazine would possibly be an annoying extra step.

ETA: It used to be considered ok to make an innovative new blaster to try and help you break more clays.
Ljutic Space gun:
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[DamonL]

Funny!

Well I just experienced my first ever anywhere Post Deletion on the Shotgun World Forum of the photo I posted here.

Reason? Mod quote> "By definition, Troll post = one made for no reason other then to stir the pot and start arguments, it meets that criteria. Most clubs do not allow that style firearm on their SC courses. Steve"

I admitted to wanting a discussion both Pro and Con and just to answer, with respect, any questions about the guns. I knew I might
be met with some hard Cons, but that is ok. I built the guns to comply with the current NSCA rules. I love the guns and will continues to
compete with them.

Such is life.
Patrick

Sorry to hear this! Some people have no sense of humor. I have a friend who occasionally shoots a Saiga shotgun when only a few friends are at the skeet range, but not around the general club members. He does it for fun and a change of pace. I considered a VR80 magazine fed shotgun before, but did not buy it because I would not not be able to shoot it anywhere except with slugs at a rifle range. I need to buy some land. :).

[BillSWPA]

Funny!

Well I just experienced my first ever anywhere Post Deletion on the Shotgun World Forum of the photo I posted here.

Reason? Mod quote> "By definition, Troll post = one made for no reason other then to stir the pot and start arguments, it meets that criteria. Most clubs do not allow that style firearm on their SC courses. Steve"

I admitted to wanting a discussion both Pro and Con and just to answer, with respect, any questions about the guns. I knew I might
be met with some hard Cons, but that is ok. I built the guns to comply with the current NSCA rules. I love the guns and will continues to
compete with them.

Such is life.
Patrick

Unfortunately I rarely shoot shotguns, but I have yet to visit or otherwise become aware of a club where that type of gun would not be allowed. Is there any merit to that claim?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

I admitted to wanting a discussion both Pro and Con and just to answer, with respect, any questions about the guns. I knew I might
be met with some hard Cons, but that is ok. I built the guns to comply with the current NSCA rules. I love the guns and will continues to
compete with them.


Do you shoot a lot of SC? What were your scores with these guns? What are your scores with an O/U or other semiauto?

[Bergeron]

Funny!

Well I just experienced my first ever anywhere Post Deletion on the Shotgun World Forum of the photo I posted here.

Reason? Mod quote> "By definition, Troll post = one made for no reason other then to stir the pot and start arguments, it meets that criteria. Most clubs do not allow that style firearm on their SC courses. Steve"

I admitted to wanting a discussion both Pro and Con and just to answer, with respect, any questions about the guns. I knew I might
be met with some hard Cons, but that is ok. I built the guns to comply with the current NSCA rules. I love the guns and will continues to
compete with them.

Such is life.
Patrick

This is the kinda SC snottiness that occasionally puts me off. If the rules are no more than two shells in the gun at any time, well fine-ok, no big deal- buuutttt, let me shoot my damn shotguns! I was on my university's skeet team, and I shot that with my poor-redneck-kid camoflauged Mossberg pump gun until I found my way to a O/U.

I also have a Saiga-12, cause that thing is bitchin'. What about SBS, or suppressed shotguns, or the 3 Gun extended tube guns? Where is the line, and WHY is the line there? I'm happy if someone wants to step to the line with their ultra-bucks-up Kriegoff and I can't see anyone turning away someone with a BT-99 or a Space Gun, so Why The F are the AK or AR mag-fed guns given all this hostility? Shoot, be safe, and have fun.

Sorry- that hit a nerve.

[Cory]

At my local shotgun place, I get heckled about using my "stick up gun" 1301 tactical. It's all in good fun though and after the first round when they realize I'm safe and can shoot, nobody cares.

That said, I'm certain they'd pitch a fit about an "AR" style shotgun. The place is just odd like that. Seems like its a more traditional crowd.

[mmc45414]

Unfortunately I rarely shoot shotguns, but I have yet to visit or otherwise become aware of a club where that type of gun would not be allowed. Is there any merit to that claim?
Some clubs will have a minimum, barrel length rule.
Some Busted Old Cunts will pride themselves on being BOCs that contribute to the diminishment of fun. The BOCs are more of a problem IME than the rules.
ETA: But not really much of an actual problem.

[Borderland]

Private clubs get to make their own rules. We have more than our share of retired individuals who like to tell people how they should conduct themselves. One guy is retired Army and a real dick. I got an email from a board member about an infraction that I have no knowledge of. Wasn't there, didn't see it, don't know anything about it. I think some of these guys must be retired prison wardens or county prosecutors.

I'm assuming that you have camera footage or a log that would indicate that I should know something about this, correct? Nope.

Just a minor inconvenience as my range is the only outdoor range within an hour of my house.

[DamonL]

At my club it really depends on the range officer. I have read the club rules and some of the things the range officers say are not written rules. Examples are 18” barreled shotguns are not allowed or box fed shotguns are not allowed.

At our range “only two rounds can be loaded at a time” is in writing.

[Bergeron]

I don't really like the "2 rounds loaded at once" rules, or the "one shot per bird" rules, outside of formalized events (where I otherwise understand and support them), but I can deal and that's ok.

The problem is the whole "that shotgun's ok, but that one's not" BS. That rule only hurts.

In multiple places at multiple times I have seen how it's either the retirees or the independently wealthy that have time to imbed themselves into the ranges, and that becoming the fount of drama and nonsense and BS. No criticism of retirement or wealth, hell I want both!, and I really appreciate people giving of their time and themselves to enable the shooting sports, but trying to get involved as first a broke college kid and then as a working stiff has damaged my patience for the sort of things were describing here.

[Jim Watson]

NSCA says:
B. Shotguns
Shotguns of 12 gauge or smaller, in safe working order, and capable of firing two shots are to be used in attempting all targets. No more than two (2) shells may be loaded in the gun at one time. No shotgun with a barrel length shorter than 24 inches will be permitted in any registered event unless prior approval is received from shoot management.

So why big 'nanner clips? Seems awkward. Got a video of shooting a station?


I don't really like the "2 rounds loaded at once" rules, or the "one shot per bird" rules,

I do. I have shot enough trap and a little skeet to feel queasy when Bubba wants to load up his Mossy.
And hey, if you shoot ISSF trap, you do get two tries at a bird.

[P.E. Kelley]

That sucks, but I don’t expect any less when more than half of that forum can only answer technique questions by saying “just focus on the clay and pull the trigger” But I’ll play.

Have you found the dot gun to be more tolerant of a less than perfect mount or movinng your head while tracking the bird than a standard shotgun? I’ve been meaning to throw a dot on one of my shotguns but just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

>>>Dots are forgiving so long as you have a fair cheek weld. As you know for the most part the dot is on it you can see it, not so much with bead fronts. I think you'll like the dot, if we are to focus on the bird, hay not have have the aiming element on the same plain.

Does the straight line recoil make pairs or a second shot easier?

>>>Yes. I limit my showboat efforts to "clay play days" and fast pairs are stupid fun!

I think to me the biggest negative would be that In a game where there is plenty of loading, but you almost never load more than two shells at a time having to load a magazine would possibly be an annoying extra step.

>>>First response, you are right. But like any effort, once you get a system down it is pretty quick. (I am reluctant to run a belt/mag pouch setup with 4 mags at the ready. I AM NOT trying to ruffle the old guards feathers, but in FITASC they got timekeepers!

ETA: It used to be considered ok to make an innovative new blaster to try and help you break more clays.
Ljutic Space gun:

>>>YES!!!! SO much YES! I serviced a Space Gun many years ago and THAT was the inspiration for my vent rib gun!
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[P.E. Kelley]

NSCA says:
B. Shotguns
Shotguns of 12 gauge or smaller, in safe working order, and capable of firing two shots are to be used in attempting all targets. No more than two (2) shells may be loaded in the gun at one time. No shotgun with a barrel length shorter than 24 inches will be permitted in any registered event unless prior approval is received from shoot management.

So why big 'nanner clips? Seems awkward. Got a video of shooting a station?



I do. I have shot enough trap and a little skeet to feel queasy when Bubba wants to load up his Mossy.
And hey, if you shoot ISSF trap, you do get two tries at a bird.

The 24" rule was created...because I shot this at the Oregon State Champs.

96356

[P.E. Kelley]

Do you shoot a lot of SC? What were your scores with these guns? What are your scores with an O/U or other semiauto?

Been haunting clay courses since the early 90's.
Scores are roughly the same.

I have a VERY nice Zoli Z-Sport but prefer my Briley Built Benelli Super Sport over that.
The GEN12's are encroaching on the Super Sport for money maker clay gun.

[Jim Watson]

I am still interested in the manual of arms for a box magazine shotgun.
NCSA says
Beginning at Station One, each shooter in the squad will at-
tempt the entire menu of singles and pairs before the next
shooter begins.

OK, assume it is similar to Station 1 in skeet, two singles and a double; four shots.
The usual procedure is to load the OU with a shell in each barrel or an auto with one in the chamber and one in the magazine. Shoot one, shoot one, reload, shoot two.

But what are you doing? swapping two box magazines around? Multiple box magazines in case there are more than four targets at one stand?


I find it interesting that your gun led to the 24" barrel requirement but they said nothing against the optical sight.

[P.E. Kelley]

I am still interested in the manual of arms for a box magazine shotgun.
NCSA says
Beginning at Station One, each shooter in the squad will at-
tempt the entire menu of singles and pairs before the next
shooter begins.

OK, assume it is similar to Station 1 in skeet, two singles and a double; four shots.
The usual procedure is to load the OU with a shell in each barrel or an auto with one in the chamber and one in the magazine. Shoot one, shoot one, reload, shoot two.

But what are you doing? swapping two box magazines around? Multiple box magazines in case there are more than four targets at one stand?


I find it interesting that your gun led to the 24" barrel requirement but they said nothing against the optical sight.

Skeet and Sporting Clays are different game, but loading the mag between pairs is not a problem.

Long story on the barrel thing. Short version. I show up, shoot. At the end of day one I get told my scores are null and void as I was using a "tracking device". Further told that if I don't change gun's my scores will continues to not be included.

I return to my hotel, read the rules and contact a few Cats more knowledgeable than me. "Tracking Device" in under the ammunition section of the rules and refers to tracking wads and or luminescent element in the ejecta, not anything to to with sight systems.

Further. Red Dots are mentioned within FITASC rules (not sporting) so they are ok in Sporting.

Next day I shoot (for no score) and at the next to the last station a guy rolls up and tells me my scores have been reinstated.

If you feel like it listen to minute 17-20 of this podcast. The NSCA lead dog says a clean-up of the rules are needed to eliminate Assault Shotguns and a 24" rules should fix it. (it was already 26" in FITASC)

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-66-nsca-executive-director-michael-hampton-jr/id1542488589?i=1000552803399

Happy to answer any more questions!

[P.E. Kelley]

First minute shows me shooting Make or Break at the 2021 Oregon State match.

Nearly qualified for the top 4!


https://youtu.be/CjZ_aofv898

[Hambo]

Been haunting clay courses since the early 90's.
Scores are roughly the same.

I have a VERY nice Zoli Z-Sport but prefer my Briley Built Benelli Super Sport over that.
The GEN12's are encroaching on the Super Sport for money maker clay gun.

I think I'd feel all kinds of messed up shooting an AR setup at clays, by which I mean the fit and my stance.

[Jim Watson]

First minute shows me shooting Make or Break at the 2021 Oregon State match.


Thanks, I see how it goes with a box.

As one gunzine wit wrote: A shotgunner would step up with a pine handled gas pipe if it gained him a bird.

[Borderland]

Been haunting clay courses since the early 90's.
Scores are roughly the same.

I have a VERY nice Zoli Z-Sport but prefer my Briley Built Benelli Super Sport over that.
The GEN12's are encroaching on the Super Sport for money maker clay gun.

I shot an O/U for many years, both skeet and trap, mostly Berettas. For me it's the balance/fit and nothing more. If an auto loader balances and I can get the stock dimensions where I need them to be an auto loader will work. You could probably say that about any rifle or shotgun. They make some nice autos these days. I even have an 870 that I can shoot very well. I modified the stock LOP though.

It's strikes me as a bit ironic that back in the 70's everyone was shooting skeet with a 26" barrel O/U. You couldn't give one of those away now because the barrel is way too short. ;)

Shooting with a dot fascinates me. I suppose there would be some who wouldn't like that and try to restrict them because they think it's an unfair advantage. Personally I would like to compete with someone who used a RDS because I would think it a disadvantage. But one never know, do one?

Tracking device? The only tracking device I know of is your brain. That's ridiculous.

[Nephrology]

The 24" rule was created...because I shot this at the Oregon State Champs.

96356

We are not worthy of such awesomeness

I know you aren't building these to troll the AARSC... but I fucking would. I love everything about this thread

[BWT]

I mean, you’re shooting clays, right?

I hadn’t shot my Mossberg 590 and I took it out with a group from church (along with several other guns) to shoot this weekend.

I shot clays with it decently. Who cares? I bet the red dot offers a lot of advantage.

[Bergeron]

Seeing that comment upthread about the barrel length rule being made to "keep out Assault Shotguns" is unfortunate. I keep getting that mental picture of the scowling little kid with the "stop liking what I don't like" meme when I run into that attitude.

We as shooters must be prepared to hang together. The attitude of "My gun is ok but yours is not" is unhelpful. If the guns are functional, mechanically safe, and legally owned, and the shooter is safely capable of obeying range commands and procedures, we are losing the argument if we try to take it further.

I shot my first 3-gun matches with a 28" barreled A5. It was awkward, but I didn't worry about catching a ration of guff about it, and people were friendly. When I shoot USPSA, I am often shooting a Roland Special Glock 19 in Open. It's nowhere near optimal for that game and division, but no one cares and everyone is friendly.

Most of my clay shooting has been with a O/U. I started out shooting clays as a redneck kid with a camo Mossy- it was the only gun I had. I've got my Dad's 11/87 clays gun, and I want to use that gun to see what shooting clays would be like with a red dot. I get that the best don't need them, but I would really like to find out first hand if it helps or hurts my mere mortal self.

I'm not looking to make my Saiga my go-to clays gun, but it's fun to shoot, shooting clays is fun, and it's fun every now and then to combine the two. I really would prefer for that to not be a big deal when it happens.

[Sal Picante]

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Not all heroes wear capes.

[P.E. Kelley]

I think I'd feel all kinds of messed up shooting an AR setup at clays, by which I mean the fit and my stance.


I don't know how much "speed shooting" you do with AR's or PCC's, but they handle very well in that arena.

For me wing shooting with one is close enough to the same. "Move, mount, shoot" is universal to all "practical shooting"
if ya think about it, aint it?

[Bergeron]

Oohhhh my, how much this is an experiment I want to try!

The whole "pistol grip and long forearm" thing is awesome for how a modern AR looks and handles so close to Olympic .22 and airguns. Of course, those are for shooting at targets that are broadly stationary, while the clay guns are for very dynamic targets... butttt.... lotsa modern high-dollar clays guns have pretty vertical grips and shooters that really reach out with their off hands. No one is showing up trying to win money in any kind of clays sport with a straight-gripped-stocked gun.

Same deal for the red dots- great things can be accomplished without them, obviously, but I really wonder about the circle-dot reticles...

We need to experiment and to be able to try to see what features that have come to dominate so many of our long guns match up with shotgunning, and I'd be real interested to see of the stuff that can transition and improve scores, what of it is trap vs. skeet vs. sporting clays vs. ZZ Bird vs. live bird.

Edit to add: Always best to chase skill instead of hardware- but we ignore hardware at our peril.

[P.E. Kelley]

Oohhhh my, how much this is an experiment I want to try!

The whole "pistol grip and long forearm" thing is awesome for how a modern AR looks and handles so close to Olympic .22 and airguns. Of course, those are for shooting at targets that are broadly stationary, while the clay guns are for very dynamic targets... butttt.... lotsa modern high-dollar clays guns have pretty vertical grips and shooters that really reach out with their off hands. No one is showing up trying to win money in any kind of clays sport with a straight-gripped-stocked gun.

Same deal for the red dots- great things can be accomplished without them, obviously, but I really wonder about the circle-dot reticles...

We need to experiment and to be able to try to see what features that have come to dominate so many of our long guns match up with shotgunning, and I'd be real interested to see of the stuff that can transition and improve scores, what of it is trap vs. skeet vs. sporting clays vs. ZZ Bird vs. live bird.

Edit to add: Always best to chase skill instead of hardware- but we ignore hardware at our peril.

I just need the same thing Ive always needed in the Sporting Clay games, time and money for more practice.

This gun (in my long barrel form) swings very nicely. I just took the vent rib gun out of the first time (it is a Lt. Full barrel) and surprised myself on several difficult (very short window) presentations. That is an indication (especially since I was shooting low gun) that fit and swing are on point.

[awp_101]

The 24" rule was created...because I shot this at the Oregon State Champs.

96356
Shouldn’t be a big deal to extend that barrel the needed number of inches with a permanent extension.😈.

Then again, I’ve got something of an ornery streak…;)

[Borderland]

I mean, you’re shooting clays, right?

I hadn’t shot my Mossberg 590 and I took it out with a group from church (along with several other guns) to shoot this weekend.

I shot clays with it decently. Who cares? I bet the red dot offers a lot of advantage.

Ever shoot a 25 with one? That will be your sign. The truth is a RDS is an aiming device. Champion shooters aren't aiming. They're point shooting. How can they be aiming without a rear sight?

I think RDS has a place on shotguns. Probably SD, deer stand, and turkeys, but clays is a stretch. Wake me up when Olympic shooters start using RDS.

[DDTSGM]

Ever shoot a 25 with one? That will be your sign. The truth is a RDS is an aiming device. Champion shooters aren't aiming. They're point shooting. How can they be aiming without a rear sight?

I don't think I'd call it point shooting.

The objective of mounting the shotgun into the shoulder correctly is to have the bead floating as a perfect circle/sphere on the end of the rib with no rib visible. If the shotgun has no rib, then the bead should be floating on the top of the receiver (we called it the rear sight plain). If the rib has a mid-bead, then the objective is to have the two beads appear as a single bead.

If your mount is consistent and you don't achieve the above, then adjustments to the shotgun are made - LOP, drop and/or pitch.

So, I would more accurately call it stanced directed shooting.

That's JMO, it may be different after the two-days I plan on spending at OSP after the first of the year.

[Borderland]

I don't think I'd call it point shooting.

The objective of mounting the shotgun into the shoulder correctly is to have the bead floating as a perfect circle/sphere on the end of the rib with no rib visible. If the shotgun has no rib, then the bead should be floating on the top of the receiver (we called it the rear sight plain). If the rib has a mid-bead, then the objective is to have the two beads appear as a single bead.

If your mount is consistent and you don't achieve the above, then adjustments to the shotgun are made - LOP, drop and/or pitch.

So, I would more accurately call it stanced directed shooting.

That's JMO, it may be different after the two-days I plan on spending at OSP after the first of the year.

I'm not talking about how your shotgun fits you. That's a given. What do you focus on when you shoot? Hopefully the target.

[P.E. Kelley]

Not all heroes wear capes.

Love ya man!

[P.E. Kelley]

Yes, it was only one station of fifteen. Ended up with a 77/100


https://youtu.be/YZCNBKkErT4

[DamonL]

Patrick,

Have you tried other box feed shotguns? If so, which ones and how were they in comparision?

Thanks.

[P.E. Kelley]

Patrick,

Have you tried other box feed shotguns? If so, which ones and how were they in comparision?

Thanks.



I have tried others.

For background.

I was part of team Benelli for 4 years and created the Stoeger M3K 3 gun model.

Gold medals earned in international shotgun comps.


Malfunctions are NO Fing good to a (me at one time) real competitor. Not to mention those using shotguns in
hostile situations.

Only the Dissident Arms ( >4K$) and the Genesis (<3K$) are even to be mentioned (IMHO)

All the rest are a cheap "buy 3 and hope" or learn to fix, modify, etc. Home projects if you will.

PK