ohio highway patr. buying new side arms

[rockymtnnut]

The states broke and suddenly they think its time to replace about 5000 Sig 226 pistols. What would be cheaper rebuild them like we make our military do or just write a check for brand new pistols. How insane !!!

[Crow Hunter]

The states broke and suddenly they think its time to replace about 5000 Sig 226 pistols. What would be cheaper rebuild them like we make our military do or just write a check for brand new pistols. How insane !!!

Probably "use it or lose it" Federal Stimulus money of some sort.

[JDM]

Often times there are huge manufacturer provided incentives for departments to trade in guns. Some of these incentives make replacing an entire inventory of guns extremely cost effective.

[TCinVA]

The states broke and suddenly they think its time to replace about 5000 Sig 226 pistols.

...which have been in service how long? And have how many thousand rounds through them? And cost how much to maintain? And will have manufacturer's support for how much longer?



What would be cheaper rebuild them like we make our military do


What our military does is take a deadlined M9 pistol, salvage every part they can including the ones that shouldn't be salvaged, throw the parts in big piles, and then use those parts to "fix" other weapons still in service. The end result is that the person who is issued an M9 has parts that are not properly installed and may break the very next time he/she attempts to fire the weapon or may not work at all. So that's really not a strategy I would recommend.

Difficult economic times do not make bad guys any less dangerous or mean that law enforcement officers need functional weapons any less than they do in good economic times. Pistols are pieces of equipment and equipment eventually needs to be replaced. Especially life-saving equipment.

There are many perfectly logical reasons to contract for new handguns. There are some contracts that are just spending "free" money or a bad case of New! Shiny! syndrome, but there's also such a thing as an organization wearing out pistols and genuinely needing new ones.

[rockymtnnut]

...which have been in service how long? And have how many thousand rounds through them? And cost how much to maintain? And will have manufacturer's support for how much longer?



What our military does is take a deadlined M9 pistol, salvage every part they can including the ones that shouldn't be salvaged, throw the parts in big piles, and then use those parts to "fix" other weapons still in service. The end result is that the person who is issued an M9 has parts that are not properly installed and may break the very next time he/she attempts to fire the weapon or may not work at all. So that's really not a strategy I would recommend.

Difficult economic times do not make bad guys any less dangerous or mean that law enforcement officers need functional weapons any less than they do in good economic times. Pistols are pieces of equipment and equipment eventually needs to be replaced. Especially life-saving equipment.

The troopers are allowed first chance at their pistols at a greatly reduced rate. They are Sig 226s . When times are good by all means but times are not good. Treat them like the military service them and go on they are not wore out .

[pr1042]

Often times there are huge manufacturer provided incentives for departments to trade in guns. Some of these incentives make replacing an entire inventory of guns extremely cost effective.

This....when trading in and going with say Glock, the department is most likely getting new guns for around 125-150 apiece, if not less.

[TGS]

The troopers are allowed first chance at their pistols at a greatly reduced rate. They are Sig 226s . When times are good by all means but times are not good. Treat them like the military service them and go on they are not wore out .

Were you ever in the military?

I needed a mag for my M9 replaced once. The armorers reached into a case and gave me another mag...used, but hopefully serviceable. That thought went out the window when he took my mag with a broken baseplate and put it in the same case.

That's how the military services weapons.

Now, what was that you were saying is a good idea? ;)

[Sparks2112]

Well, they've been using Sig 226 .40 DAk's for if I remember correctly at least the last ten years. Having talked with many a OSHP officer in the last year or so most of them absolutely hate them and wish they could use almost anything else. One of their instructors commented to me recently that he wished he had something other than the DAK to issue to the female officers who in many cases, due to the large grip, and long trigger reach, score abysmally with their duty weapons.

[TCinVA]

The troopers are allowed first chance at their pistols at a greatly reduced rate.

A friend of mine will be retiring soon. He's issued a Glock 22 that's the same weapon he was issued over a decade ago. The weapon has had almost no armorer's attention and at 25 yards it shoots a pattern rather than a group. He's rolling on duty with a weapon that isn't up to the task. When he retires, they'll sell him that pistol at a greatly reduced price over a new gun...but that don't mean it's a bargain.



Treat them like the military service them and go on they are not wore out .

See my set of questions earlier. Unless you're in possession of the kind of data those questions hint at, it's specious to claim useful knowledge about the state of the weapons the agency issues.

Tough economic times are difficult, no doubt...but having officers drive around on bare tires in cruisers that break down in the middle of a call wouldn't exactly improve the situation. Neither will having officers wear out-of-warranty body armor or tote dodgy weapons that are exhibiting problems in the field.

It may well be that the pistols aren't worn out but have exhibited other issues that make getting a replacement a sensible use of funds. Or it may legitimately be a pointless use of money. Without having all the information relevant to the decision in front of us it's rather presumptive to make a value judgment about the decision to buy new guns.

[rockymtnnut]

My uncle works for the patrol and he thinks its absurd, he said most have 1500 to 2000 rounds and very few have seen 5000. Todd G just took a s&w m&p to over 68000 ran hard and hot and bare minimum cleaning and maintenance . I drive a truck the 1 I'm in today has 945,000 miles what my company like to replace it ,sure but the money is not there .So what are they left with rebuild it and go on .

[Sparks2112]

A friend of mine will be retiring soon. He's issued a Glock 22 that's the same weapon he was issued over a decade ago. The weapon has had almost no armorer's attention and at 25 yards it shoots a pattern rather than a group. He's rolling on duty with a weapon that isn't up to the task. When he retires, they'll sell him that pistol at a greatly reduced price over a new gun...but that don't mean it's a bargain.



See my set of questions earlier. Unless you're in possession of the kind of data those questions hint at, it's specious to claim useful knowledge about the state of the weapons the agency issues.

Tough economic times are difficult, no doubt...but having officers drive around on bare tires in cruisers that break down in the middle of a call wouldn't exactly improve the situation. Neither will having officers wear out-of-warranty body armor or tote dodgy weapons that are exhibiting problems in the field.

It may well be that the pistols aren't worn out but have exhibited other issues that make getting a replacement a sensible use of funds. Or it may legitimately be a pointless use of money. Without having all the information relevant to the decision in front of us it's rather presumptive to make a value judgment about the decision to buy new guns.

Without quoting my source, simply because I don't want to get anyone in trouble, I'm pretty certain they've been having pretty significant reliability issues with a number of their pistols. Though nothing like what the Hamilton County SO has been dealing with the last 15 years...

[Sparks2112]

My uncle works for the patrol and he thinks its absurd, he said most have 1500 to 2000 rounds and very few have seen 5000. Todd G just took a s&w m&p to over 68000 ran hard and hot and bare minimum cleaning and maintenance . I drive a truck the 1 I'm in today has 945,000 miles what my company like to replace it ,sure but the money is not there .So what are they left with rebuild it and go on .

Your uncle's information is incorrect. Trust me.

[rockymtnnut]

b
Were you ever in the military?

I needed a mag for my M9 replaced once. The armorers reached into a case and gave me another mag...used, but hopefully serviceable. That thought went out the window when he took my mag with a broken baseplate and put it in the same case.

That's how the military services weapons.

Now, what was that you were saying is a good idea? ;)

I was U.S.M.C. we are talking about people to make 100,000 a year not A lance Cpl making minimum wage or far below. I would service my own weapon if that's the case. don't get me wrong there is a time it's just not now .

[rockymtnnut]

Without quoting my source, simply because I don't want to get anyone in trouble, I'm pretty certain they've been having pretty significant reliability issues with a number of their pistols. Though nothing like what the Hamilton County SO has been dealing with the last 15 years...

I'd say Hamilton County might have an argument for a new weapon . How may more years are they going to get out of those Smiths. My uncle and I believe It's magazine related to any reliability issues they have . Have the armorer fix the problem unless it a cracked frame or slide its serviceable don't you agree???

[ToddG]

We're talking from two different directions, here.

If a gun is high mileage but otherwise in good condition, it can be professionally serviced and probably provide years of reliable use.

If the gun has been abused -- and ten years of exposure to the elements on duty is much different than a year of hard use at the range and being carried concealed -- then the cost to get everything back to spec could easily be more than an agency's net cost on a new gun.

Comparing .mil "maintenance" to proper maintenance is silly. A law enforcement agency that refurbished guns that way would be exposed to tremendous liability.

Sometimes the fastest way to get fast is to go faster.
Todd Louis Green, pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com)
Train hard & stay safe!
"Speed is the essence of war." Sun Tzu

[Kyle Reese]

I've got no problem with an agency procuring new service pistols if they are needed.

As far as military maintenance on handguns is concerned, I've personally encountered the following:

-Being issued with magazines for my M-9 that were not functional at all, even being brand new (circa 2003-2004). IIRC these were aftermarket magazines, and were parkerized. The followers in all of the ones I encountered as a squad leader would bind in the magazine tube, and cause alot of problems. OEM mags didn't have this problem, and were highly sought after. Bringing this issue up the chain, I was told to "deal with it". :rolleyes:

-Having to replace the recoil spring on my issued M-9 on several occasions, due to it being worn, and lack of competent armorer support.

We do live in lean times, but there are plenty of other areas to focus our collective consternation and outrage on.

[rockymtnnut]

We're talking from two different directions, here.

If a gun is high mileage but otherwise in good condition, it can be professionally serviced and probably provide years of reliable use.

If the gun has been abused -- and ten years of exposure to the elements on duty is much different than a year of hard use at the range and being carried concealed -- then the cost to get everything back to spec could easily be more than an agency's net cost on a new gun.

Comparing .mil "maintenance" to proper maintenance is silly. A law enforcement agency that refurbished guns that way would be exposed to tremendous liability.
That's my point they service them in far better detail than the military. When I see police trade one that have nothing more than holster wear that's my point. Now in defense of Marine corp armorers they are pretty good once you get to the fleet. Todd what does Sig charge to refurb a Sig??

Sometimes the fastest way to get fast is to go faster.
Todd Louis Green, pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com)
Train hard & stay safe!
"Speed is the essence of war." Sun Tzu

[rockymtnnut]

I've got no problem with an agency procuring new service pistols if they are needed.

As far as military maintenance on handguns is concerned, I've personally encountered the following:

-Being issued with magazines for my M-9 that were not functional at all, even being brand new (circa 2003-2004). IIRC these were aftermarket magazines, and were parkerized. The followers in all of the ones I encountered as a squad leader would bind in the magazine tube, and cause alot of problems. OEM mags didn't have this problem, and were highly sought after. Bringing this issue up the chain, I was told to "deal with it". :rolleyes:

-Having to replace the recoil spring on my issued M-9 on several occasions, due to it being worn, and lack of competent armorer support.

We do live in lean times, but there are plenty of other areas to focus our collective consternation and outrage on.

I never advocated that we use the same quality re fitting but we can rest assured that the Ohio Patrol would never take a cheap route out so if they were being refurbed no expense would be spared .I would trust my life till a sig refurb as quickly as I would a brand new sig .

[rockymtnnut]

where would your pistol be if you pull it out once a week and cleaned it or at least wipe it down bare minimum once a month. Sig says the 2022 has a expected service life of twenty years. But that has become the norm as its easy to spend money when it is NOT yours. I took a 15% pay cut and total suspension of my pension I think I have a right to question as every other American does to.

[Sparks2112]

I never advocated that we use the same quality re fitting but we can rest assured that the Ohio Patrol would never take a cheap route out so if they were being refurbed no expense would be spared .I would trust my life till a sig refurb as quickly as I would a brand new sig .

I wouldn't, especially if you consider the issues they're having versus how they would fix said issue. Let's say it's magazine issues that they're having. I would bet, though I'm not certain, that sig factory replacement mags are not the fix to said issue. I'm not a fan of the sig checkmate mags, and I tell pretty much anyone that buys a sig to pick up some mecgars.

Also, as Todd aluded to. Let's say they replace all the issued sig mags at $100 per issued gun. How does that make sense financially when they could replace the entire firearm and the accompanying duty gear for somewhere in the neighborhood of $150 per gun?

RE: Hamilton County. The last qualification that one of the local RO's oversaw saw a 100% failure rate of each deputie's issued pistol. So for each officer on the line they saw at least one failure out of EVERY pistol there. That is frightening...

[rockymtnnut]

I wouldn't, especially if you consider the issues they're having versus how they would fix said issue. Let's say it's magazine issues that they're having. I would bet, though I'm not certain, that sig factory replacement mags are not the fix to said issue. I'm not a fan of the sig checkmate mags, and I tell pretty much anyone that buys a sig to pick up some mecgars.

Also, as Todd aluded to. Let's say they replace all the issued sig mags at $100 per issued gun. How does that make sense financially when they could replace the entire firearm and the accompanying duty gear for somewhere in the neighborhood of $150 per gun?
h*v.
RE: Hamilton County. The last qualification that one of the local RO's oversaw saw a 100% failure rate of each deputie's issued pistol. So for each officer on the line they saw at least one failure out of EVERY pistol there. That is frightening...

I can assure you that sig sauer will not sell you a pistol for the cost of 4 magazines no matter who you are .
now for the failure rate you can think Simon l. he's not very keen on the common citizen owning a firearm so how much less is he on duty officers side arms.

[rockymtnnut]

What was the most common failure rate on Hamilton County deputies pistols ?
Now I am a big believer in maintaining your weapon although I do like what Todd does with a pistol take it out abuse the daylight out of it orother words run it really hard with minimal cleaning show the pistols weak spots .I can't get out of the old clean it every time you shoot it and clean it periodically regardless .that's why some M 16 A 2's last 20 years . Please believe me I am not a berreta fan but my M 9 was a very reliable pistol as long as you use good magazines.

[Alaskapopo]

The troopers are allowed first chance at their pistols at a greatly reduced rate. They are Sig 226s . When times are good by all means but times are not good. Treat them like the military service them and go on they are not wore out .

This is a small expense in the big picture and well worth keeping cops safe. Of course I am a bit biased being a cop. Plus for the military a sidearm is a secondary weapon for law enforcement it generally the weapon that is handy when things go bad. Of course if they had purchased Glock 17's they would never need replacing in an officers life time.
Got to love those alluminum framed guns. I have an older 226 that rattles.
Pat

[Kevin B.]

The logic behind cutting corners on a piece of life-saving equipment, either by an administrator or by the user, has always escaped me.

[tanner]

Of course if they had purchased Glock 17's they would never need replacing in an officers life time.
Pat

The Glocks I have seen other agencies use don't seem to run like Sigs do, and my theory on that is people like to tinker with their Glocks while with Sigs, they tend to leave them stock.

I'm not a Glock hater, in fact if I were Chief that is probably what we would have, but in my career I have seen the Sigs do nothing other than run like tanks. You can fault the ergos or triggers (DA/SA or DAK), but for reliability they just run...

My agency has shot Sig P226s for about 20 years now. We upgraded to .40 from 9mm about 10 years ago. It would cost the department approx $325 per to get all new guns with the trade-ins. When we did the math on how much it would cost to get everyone 3 new mags, new night sights and replace all the springs as opposed to getting a new gun with all those things, it seemed to make sense, but our administration thought otherwise. We are just fixing things as they break now, which is rare. Out of a 10 year sample size with approx 250 pistols, we have had one parts failure. The locking insert on the takedown lever wore out on the "range" gun, most likely because it was cleaned too often by the cadets...

[rockymtnnut]

as I stated before I believe there will be a time to replace pistols but this state is broke ,now is not the time . my 229 is a police trade in I trust my life to it . How much would a spring job for the entire pistol and 4 new mag springs from Brownells ? I rarely see a 229 or a 226 break . my 229 has never given me 1 ounce of a problem . I'm sure some of you as seen problems but I have not .

[rockymtnnut]

This is a small expense in the big picture and well worth keeping cops safe. Of course I am a bit biased being a cop. Plus for the military a sidearm is a secondary weapon for law enforcement it generally the weapon that is handy when things go bad. Of course if they had purchased Glock 17's they would never need replacing in an officers life time.
Got to love those alluminum framed guns. I have an older 226 that rattles.
Pat

tell that to a corporal in Iraq ,I think he would strongly disagree . marine Corps fire teams in Iraq and Afghanistan have used their side arms more in a month then we will ever and thats police officers and civilians included .

[Sparks2112]

I think we are having a bit of a disconnect here, and I'm going to bow out before there are any hard feelings. Just to sum up...

When we look at the cost to refurbish sigs to sat condition, compared to what another manufacturer will give OSHP in credit towards switching platforms, switching platforms makes more sense financially.

The 226 .40 DAK, in my mind, is a sub optimal platform for an agency who has shooters with below average hand size/minimal shooting experience (most agencies I can think of, especially large ones). If the decision were up to me I think M&P 40's would be an optimal choice if they wanted to stay with .40 and were concerned about fitting a gun to a various range of shooters. More reliable platform, higher capacity, lighter weight.

S&W is VERY aggressive about taking market share from other manufacturers and often times will offer incredible deals to agencies to switch, especially large agencies like a Highway Patrol.

I would hazard that with Cincinnati and Columbus both using M&P's and being very happy with them OSHP is probably looking at them pretty hard.

[DocGKR]

Well said.

[Sparks2112]

Well said.

Thanks! That means a lot coming from you, I appreciate it. :)

[jlw]

A few weeks ago, I was contacted by a distributor in reference to trading our agency pistols. If we were to do the trade, we could get completely new pistols for cheaper than buying three new mags and all of the springs/plungers for each pistol. We aren't doing that deal as our pistols are only three years old, but that isn't uncommon. They can make their money on selling the trade-ins.

[Alaskapopo]

The Glocks I have seen other agencies use don't seem to run like Sigs do, and my theory on that is people like to tinker with their Glocks while with Sigs, they tend to leave them stock.

I'm not a Glock hater, in fact if I were Chief that is probably what we would have, but in my career I have seen the Sigs do nothing other than run like tanks. You can fault the ergos or triggers (DA/SA or DAK), but for reliability they just run...

My agency has shot Sig P226s for about 20 years now. We upgraded to .40 from 9mm about 10 years ago. It would cost the department approx $325 per to get all new guns with the trade-ins. When we did the math on how much it would cost to get everyone 3 new mags, new night sights and replace all the springs as opposed to getting a new gun with all those things, it seemed to make sense, but our administration thought otherwise. We are just fixing things as they break now, which is rare. Out of a 10 year sample size with approx 250 pistols, we have had one parts failure. The locking insert on the takedown lever wore out on the "range" gun, most likely because it was cleaned too often by the cadets...

I have seen quite the opposite. Last person I qualified on a Sig was 229 with a light rail and it was a Forest Service agent shooting 180 grain Gold dots. Gun choked 3 or 4 times in a 100 rounds. Not impressed and that is just an example. Glock 9mm's run and run. I have had just one of our department Glock 17's malfunction since we got them and that was with a out of spec round that would not chamber. Older sigs ran great and I loved them newer models not so much from what I have seen.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

tell that to a corporal in Iraq ,I think he would strongly disagree . marine Corps fire teams in Iraq and Afghanistan have used their side arms more in a month then we will ever and thats police officers and civilians included .

Really do you have a stat for that claim? One of my best friends is a combat vet in both Iraq and Afghanistan and he told me only a few soldiers even have M9's and they don't get used that much.
Pat

[Sparks2112]

Really do you have a stat for that claim? One of my best friends is a combat vet in both Iraq and Afghanistan and he told me only a few soldiers even have M9's and they don't get used that much.
Pat

Mirrors my experience, but here I am already breaking my word.

[Lon]

A few weeks ago, I was contacted by a distributor in reference to trading our agency pistols. If we were to do the trade, we could get completely new pistols for cheaper than buying three new mags and all of the springs/plungers for each pistol. We aren't doing that deal as our pistols are only three years old, but that isn't uncommon. They can make their money on selling the trade-ins.

This. The last time we got new Sigs (8 years ago), we got new guns for the cost of the night sights on each pistol.

[DanH]

Let's do the math, shall we?
If offered a trade in on new weapons for, say 150 each I doubt any rational LE agency would decline. And for the distributor, they make all kinds of money that way as well. A used Sig could easily bring 4-500. Add to that the 150 for the new weapon and you are looking at a total value received for the new guns of 550-650. Well now, there we have the new price of a Glock or M&P.
The LE agency is happy because they have new, high quality weapons for the price most of us would only be able to get a HiPoint.
The distributor is happy because they got retail price or better in value for their weapons.
The manufacturer is happy because they get to point to another LE agency using their weapons.
The taxpayer should be happy, because the LE agency his tax money supports got a good deal.

[Kyle Reese]

tell that to a corporal in Iraq ,I think he would strongly disagree . marine Corps fire teams in Iraq and Afghanistan have used their side arms more in a month then we will ever and thats police officers and civilians included .

Kind of hard to do when the vast majority of American military forces left Iraq last November / December. Where are you getting your information?

[rockymtnnut]

Really do you have a stat for that claim? One of my best friends is a combat vet in both Iraq and Afghanistan and he told me only a few soldiers even have M9's and they don't get used that much.
Pat

A field mp fire team would rate a m9 berreta when doing house clearing. My co worker picked up a Browning highpower knock off for another member of his fire team to carry while in country . He is a staff nco he rated a m 9 they were used very often.

[rockymtnnut]

Kind of hard to do when the vast majority of American military forces left Iraq last November / December. Where are you getting your information?

I am referring to when they were there. Do I really have to specify that ?? Or how about afghanistan ?

[rockymtnnut]

Kind of hard to do when the vast majority of American military forces left Iraq last November / December. Where are you getting your information?

my uncle used his 1911when in Chu Lai Vietnam for 18 months more times from 67 to 68 than 68 to present time ..

[rockymtnnut]

Let's do the math, shall we?
If offered a trade in on new weapons for, say 150 each I doubt any rational LE agency would decline. And for the distributor, they make all kinds of money that way as well. A used Sig could easily bring 4-500. Add to that the 150 for the new weapon and you are looking at a total value received for the new guns of 550-650. Well now, there we have the new price of a Glock or M&P.
The LE agency is happy because they have new, high quality weapons for the price most of us would only be able to get a HiPoint.
The distributor is happy because they got retail price or better in value for their weapons.
The manufacturer is happy because they get to point to another LE agency using their weapons.
The taxpayer should be happy, because the LE agency his tax money supports got a good deal.

Dan I agree with you ,but there a few things I think you're leaving out once you get a new pistol platform how about the cost of weeks training ,what about logistical cost of getting officers to the range .per Diem , not to forget new boosters rounds sent down range. Think about it a week salary for somebody making 70,000 a year. the cost of fuel for a week .the overtime the other officers have to work while you're at the range . The real cost is alarming.
no matter how good of a deal it is we are broke there is no money we are spending money that is not ours .

[MD7305]

And all of those issues can be side stepped by issuing the new guns during regular qualification, training exercises. Agencies have to complete annual qualifications, inservice, and training so transitions can be easily implemented into those already required and scheduled activities.

[JAD]

I will say it's pretty shocking how little money there is at the state, county, and municipality level across America. Radios are a topic near and dear, and /man/ is nobody getting new radios if they didn't start buying them in 2007.

To the OP, we don't know how worn the pistols are and we don't know how broke the state is. If they're like my state, they can't fund their current commitments and have no business making new commitments. Broke is broke.

[rockymtnnut]

And all of those issues can be side stepped by issuing the new guns during regular qualification, training exercises. Agencies have to complete annual qualifications, inservice, and training so transitions can be easily implemented into those already required and scheduled activities.

I don't think that's how all Ohio plans to do it. the cost is still astronomical and we are broke . Believe me this is only the tip of the iceberg on spending. Did I mention some of them are marked Ohio highway patrol now that's great for resale isn't it?

[jlw]

Define "use" please:

Does "use" mean shots fired in combat?

Does it mean coming out of the holster?

Does it mean rounds downrange?

---
On another note, is the assertion being made that people who are carrying rifles and carbines setting them aside for reasons other than the rifle being out of commission or out of ammo?

Am I misinformed that the military considers a sidearm to be a secondary weapon?
---

What is the funding source for the new pistols? Is this money coming out of the general operating budget? Is it coming out of a seized funds account?

How much money annually is being spent to maintain the current firearms. What would the cost be to refurbish them compared to the trade? (Please see my initial post in this thread concerning this issues)

---
Have there been any instances of catastrophic failure in the field? Any in training?

Does the uncle that is providing all of this information have access to all of the documentation going along with decision?

[rockymtnnut]

I have never heard of a pistol by the patrol failing in combat . some weapons fail due to neglect.The ones I've taken a look at are in great shape . the bottom line is we are broke I am not against police officers having the best that they can have .I'm a gun guy .but the problem I have is the state can't even fund their pensions .everyone but the patrol took cost saviing days .are.. bridges and roads funds are under funded .the list goes on and on

[TCinVA]

The Glocks I have seen other agencies use don't seem to run like Sigs do, and my theory on that is people like to tinker with their Glocks while with Sigs, they tend to leave them stock.

In the agencies near me even changing the recoil spring of an issued weapon with another factory part is absolutely forbidden and will result in disciplinary action.

All officers can do is break them down for cleaning and reassemble them. Anything else is verbotten.


I have never heard of a pistol by the patrol failing in combat

Ideally you don't wait until you find a police officer dead on the side of the road with a weapon that's malfunctioned in his lifeless hand before you decide that maybe now you should take issues that have been appearing during qualifications or training seriously. That's not to say that it hasn't happened that way because in some outrageous, despicable, inexcusable cases it has gone down exactly like that. It shouldn't be that way, however.



. some weapons fail due to neglect.The ones I've taken a look at are in great shape.


Here again you're falling prey to improper metrics.

How a small sampling of guns looks to you may have absolutely no bearing on how the weapons in aggregate are performing when they are being used for qualifications, training, etc. People who looked at a Sig P250 in the holster of a Federal Air Marshall may have thought those guns looked to be in great shape, too...only they weren't in great shape because they were breaking parts and malfunctioning so hideously that they were eventually recalled from the field and the old weapons that had been turned in were sent back out.

Unless you're in the organization looking at the data that's been collected over the entire agency's use and upkeep of the pistols, you do not have an accurate read on how they are performing. At best you have an assumption based on a small sample size. Now your guess could be right or it could be wrong. The problem is that you're not acknowledging the limitations of your knowledge on the issue and are making blanket assumptions you don't have the data to back up.

Your guess is a guess...and while you're entitled to your opinion on the purchase, others are well within their rights to explain why this action might not fit the script you've written for it based on their experience and observations.

[rockymtnnut]

I agree with you but the pistols are only about 7 years old at the most and did I also mention we are broke.

[jlw]

I have never heard of a pistol by the patrol failing in combat . some weapons fail due to neglect.The ones I've taken a look at are in great shape . the bottom line is we are broke I am not against police officers having the best that they can have .I'm a gun guy .but the problem I have is the state can't even fund their pensions .everyone but the patrol took cost saviing days .are.. bridges and roads funds are under funded .the list goes on and on


What is the funding source? Is it general budget, seized funds, other?

Please define "use".

---

How long have the current pistols been in service?

--

These are not just random questions. Once you provide the answers or state that you don't know the answers, I'll give you further information.

[TGS]

I agree with you but the pistols are only about 7 years old at the most and did I also mention we are broke.

1) Pistols can become unserviceable within 7 years.....especially current SIGs. They don't exactly have a great reputation for aggregate quality anymore.

2) The cost of rearming the police will be exponentially cheaper than the cost of paying out to benefits and lawsuits if one is killed because their weapon malfunctions due to being unserviceable.

3) Out of this entire thread I've yet to see you bring up credible data that the pistols are serviceable. You're failing to convince anyone with antics.

4) Logic: If the state is as broke as you're saying, they wouldn't be buying unneeded pistols.

5) Are you sure there is no grant money that can be assisting with this?

You're making a ton of assumptions about the situation which you shouldn't be. What you've wrote over the past 5 pages is whoa-damn biased and you are making the situation into what you want in order to feed your emotions.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I agree with you but the pistols are only about 7 years old at the most and did I also mention we are broke.OSHP started issuing the P226 DAO chambered in .40 S&W in ~1999. It replaced the Beretta. I fail to see where you are getting this information from, but it's wrong. As for all of the per diem associated with qualifications, the OSHP attempts to find a suitable location to conduct departmental qualifications within the county of the District Headquarters. District 9 firing range is located within Clinton County. District 8 is located within Jackson County and so on. Qualifications occur depending upon a quarterly schedule and minimal overtime is used. Ammo costs are pretty much fixed and are purchased in bulk from various suppliers, namely Kieslers etc under state purchasing contracts. Various law enforcement agencies do not purchase their ammo from the LGS nor Wal-Mart.

Don't know the reasoning for the angst here, but if the money isn't spent on one thing, it sure the Hell will be spent on something else.

[jlw]

OSHP started issuing the P226 DAO chambered in .40 S&W in ~1999.

The cost of replacing the night sights alone would be close to the difference in trade price, and they would still have pistols that are 10+ years old.

[rockymtnnut]

1) Pistols can become unserviceable within 7 years.....especially current SIGs. They don't exactly have a great reputation for aggregate quality anymore.

2) The cost of rearming the police will be exponentially cheaper than the cost of paying out to benefits and lawsuits if one is killed because their weapon malfunctions due to being unserviceable.

3) Out of this entire thread I've yet to see you bring up credible data that the pistols are serviceable. You're failing to convince anyone with antics.

4) Logic: If the state is as broke as you're saying, they wouldn't be buying unneeded pistols.

5) Are you sure there is no grant money that can be assisting with this?

You're making a ton of assumptions about the situation which you shouldn't be. What you've wrote over the past 5 pages is whoa-damn biased and you are making the situation into what you want in ord
er to feed your emotions.4
1).Maybe if you buried a Sig in mudd it would be un serviceable.
4).logic have you taken a look at this states spending habits whither our realistically speaking unemployment rates of 17%
5).please be patriotic and don't take the approach that we must spend it or some one else will in the end that will be our demise.
3).show me were they are not serviceable. Spring kit,possibly a barrel. so maybe some or war out but most of them are not

[DocGKR]

rockymtnnut--It is now patently clear to all who have wasted their time reading your emotional, but factually inaccurate diatribe that you clearly do not know what you talking about. It is now time to stop whining and shut-up unless you can bring accurate information to the table, as gtmtnbiker98 has done above.

[TGS]

3).show me were they are not serviceable. Spring kit,possibly a barrel. so maybe some or war out but most of them are not

I'm not the one bitching here, buddy. The onus isn't on me.

[rockymtnnut]

rockymtnnut--It is now patently clear to all who have wasted their time reading your emotional, but factually inaccurate diatribe that you clearly do not know what you talking about. It is now time to stop whining and shut-up unless you can bring accurate information to the table, as gtmtnbiker98 has done above.

without getting personal doc its a money thing or lack thereof . But being from California spending money when you do not have it is not an acceptable practice in Ohio. Being a patriot mean sometimes you have to make tough decisions that are not popular . I refuse to be a yes man on this forum. and if you think I'm wasting everyone's time tell him not to respond I'm about done with this topic as I can be as I stated all along I'm for it when we have money. Hope I have made myself clear doc...

[TGS]

Without getting personal?

You just brought up his state of residence to imply that he's fiscally irresponsible, stupid, and unpatriotic.

I see a ban in the future. (and it's not my own this time) ;)

[ToddG]

If you're upset about your state's fiscal policies, call the Governor. Call your state legislators. Heck, come on PF and say "I'm upset my state is wasting money on guns for the police when they're cutting pensions!" But if you lack credible information don't fill in the blanks with guesses and wishes.

Having been involved in a number of these negotiations, I can tell you without question that the cost to inspect, repair, re-spring, install new night sights, and test fire a pistol often far outweighs the cost of a new gun once trade-ins are taken into account.

Until someone can offer some actual fact about what is going on at OHP, this thread is getting moved to the Romper Room and locked.