Zeroing a 9mm PCC, Strange Ballistics.

[Chomps]

Not sure this is the right sub forum,.. but it does involve marksmanship and gun handling so,… 🤷 😁

PCC ZERO ISSUE

So I’ve gone and zeroed my PCC Using my carry ammo of Federal HST 147 grain hollow points with my Holosun AEMS red dot at 15 yards.

With my 10” FM9 zero’d @ 15 yards, Im putting bullets thru the same holes. 😎. I’m literally using 1 inch pasters to cover up 3, 4 & 5 bullet holes at a pop!

As I understand the charts,.. I should be shooting low inside of 15 yards. Which appears to be the case. At 10, 7, and 5 yards I’m shooting anywhere from 1” to 2.5”-3” inches low. Accurate, but low. And That’s roughly where the online calculators I used say I should be hitting with the 9 mm, 147 grain HST load.

The issue I’m having is according to the ballistic calculators & charts, (… Which admittedly I am still trying to understand & figure out.) I should be shooting a little high at 25 and 50 yards,… And then it should come back down to zero out again right around 85 yards.

That’s not what’s happening! At 50 yards I’m shooting inches high and POI is moving to the R. At 85 yards. I am shooting even higher and still shifting right. At 100 yards,.. Its still going even Higher & further Right by several more inches. Plus,.. the groups are opening up significantly.

Even if I’ve read the charts wrong,… At 100 yards with a 9 mm load it should be dropping, no? Not continuing to track up.

While I am using a red dot without magnification and with my astigmatism, it blooms badly from time to time. I am wearing my distance rx. And Once I get out past 25 yards I turn the brightness way down to eliminate the worst of any blooming. Even so, shooting at 75, 85, or 100 yards,.. the dot does cover a pretty Significant portion of an 8 inch target. So it’s possible my aim is off. Still,.. I would expect most, if not all of my hits to be dropping not consistently going high & right.

I am at a loss to understand why my hits continue to move up and to the right the further from my zero distance I aim. 🤷*♂️.

Any one have any insights as to what might be causing this?? BTW,.. This issue seems to be present and consistent with my various 124gr. FMJ practice ammo as well.

Here are the images from the range Session:

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[BN]

First, you aren't really zeroed at 15 yards. You're already high and right. To be centered at 15 you would need to shoot out the red mark.

I think I zeroed my Ruger 9mm carbine at 50 yards. edit: I found my data. Yes I'm zeroed at 50 yards. 25 yards will be almost the same impact point as 50 yards. The bullet will come slightly above the line of sight from 25 to 50 yards and then begin falling below. You can see how my hits began falling below the line of sight. Sighted at 50 yards, You will need to hold over at distances closer than 25 yards. Go back and zero at 50 yards and see what happens. Good luck.


I shot my Ruger PCC at 25, 50, 100 and 140 yards. 96143961449614596146

The chicken is at 50 yards, the small popper is 100 and the full size popper is 140 yards. I was holding center of the round part of the poppers.

[WobblyPossum]

First, you aren't really zeroed at 15 yards. You're already high and right. To be centered at 15 you would need to shoot out the red mark.


This is my guess as well. If your POA is the red dot in the center of the target at 15y, your POI looks about an inch to the right and half an inch or so high. Small inaccuracies with your zero at close ranges magnify proportionally as you increase the distance to the target. Make sure you get a solid zero at your chosen distance (15y in your case) before you start checking POI at farther ranges.

[BN]

I put data in my calculator as if you were sighted in at 15 yards and yep, you would be hitting way high as you went out in distance.

[Chomps]

I put data in my calculator as if you were sighted in at 15 yards and yep, you would be hitting way high as you went out in distance.

Yeah,.. and as I mentioned, the charts I saw said the same and I expected to see that @ 25 and 50 yds. What doesn’t make any sense to me is that the rounds keep hitting higher and higher @ 85 & 100 yds. At 100 I should be holding High to compensate for bullet drop. Not shooting low to hit 6”-8” or more high. Right? But that’s not what Im seeing & I find that confusing. Im already more than a little lost in this regard. But this seems counter to what would be expected.

I absolutely accept that the problem could be me start to finish,… But I’m still at a loss to explain why it’s happening this way. Why my rounds are landing where they land when I’m aiming where I am based on what you would expect from a ballistic trajectory.

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[JCN]

Yeah,.. and as I mentioned, the charts I saw said the same and I expected to see that @ 25 and 50 yds. What doesn’t make any sense to me is that the rounds keep hitting higher and higher @ 85 & 100 yds. At 100 I should be holding High to compensate for bullet drop. Not shooting low to hit 6”-8” or more high. Right? But that’s not what Im seeing & I find that confusing. Im already more than a little lost in this regard. But this seems counter to what would be expected.

I absolutely accept that the problem could be me start to finish,… But I’m still at a loss to explain why it’s happening this way. Why my rounds are landing where they land when I’m aiming where I am based on what you would expect from a ballistic trajectory.

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Does your ballistics calculator have a place to input height over bore? If it’s a pistol calculator then it might have a default 1.5” set.

For a long gun or similar cheek weld thing, height over bore can be 2-3” which changes the intersection quite a bit at distance.

Looks like in your second picture you have a 3” offset and a 25 yard zero. Why not do that?

15 yard zeros on long guns always wind up crazy high.

I like a 25 yard zero for PCC minimum. Like others said you were way off at 15 yards anyway, you just didn’t notice.

[JCN]

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This is like a 10 yard zero. And it’s way right.

That’s why I don’t like close zeros. If you’re not careful you can miss that you’re way off the actual red mark where you should be centered or under.

Generally people tug down which means if you get any rounds higher that’s probably where the gun wants to shoot….

[TGS]

Yeah,.. and as I mentioned, the charts I saw said the same and I expected to see that @ 25 and 50 yds. What doesn’t make any sense to me is that the rounds keep hitting higher and higher @ 85 & 100 yds. At 100 I should be holding High to compensate for bullet drop. Not shooting low to hit 6”-8” or more high. Right? But that’s not what Im seeing & I find that confusing. Im already more than a little lost in this regard. But this seems counter to what would be expected.

I absolutely accept that the problem could be me start to finish,… But I’m still at a loss to explain why it’s happening this way. Why my rounds are landing where they land when I’m aiming where I am based on what you would expect from a ballistic trajectory.

I would expect what you're describing based on your picture of your 15 yard zero. You say you're zeroed at 15, but as others have pointed out...you're not. You're hitting several inches high, which is going to throw things off in a pretty dramatic fashion considering you're trying to zero at such an extremely close range.

You have a pretty extreme delta between the bore and point of aim. You're basically launching your rounds into the air like an artillery piece. A 15 yard zero is extremely close to begin with; a 25 yard zero will be more reasonable, and make sure you're actually zeroed instead of several inches high and right.

[LittleLebowski]

Go for a 25 or 50 yard zero and learn your holdovers (in close and further away - example: 15, 50, and 100 yards). I would lean towards a 25 yard zero with a PCC, but I need to test that with my MP5s, maybe I can pull off a 50 yard zero.

[Chomps]

Thanks for the feedback. It seems Imma haffta repeat the whole process again and pay a little closer attention to accuracy and precision. Damned good thing I scored a great deal on 147 HST’s. Still, this is getting to be expensive. 🤦*♂️

For the record,.. technically, this is a pistol. Not a “long rifle.” It’s a Foxtrot Mike, 9mm AR. PCC with a 1:10 Twist, 10” barrel.

However, I was not using a pistol calculator for my bullet drop calculations. (…it was some online ballistic calc I found.) It did have a section for height over bore for the sights & IIR,.. I used 2.5” or 3” since the AEMS Holosun sight sits very high.

I figured since it is technically a pistol, and intended as a PDW, that a closer zero would be somewhat preferable. My thoughts were,.. “Zero it @ the desired up close distance,.. then document where my POI landed at various other distances,.. and adjust my hold over accordingly.”

Full disclosure,.. I’ve changed zero a couple times. Initially, I tried different zero distances. One of which was 25 yds. IIR, My first zero was @ 10 yds I believe. And my precision and accuracy was much better. (…pretty much punched out the bullseye). Im not sure why I decided to change it. But I decided to try a 25 yd zero. Unfortunately, Between my astigmatism and poor distance vision,.. Even with my glasses, I just wasn’t happy with the results. I can’t recall my exact objection, But POI and grouping @ different distances wasn’t what I hoped. So I went back to using a closer zero and settled on 15 yds.

Those initial close zero’s were dead on accurate. As shown here…

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Shooting high as expected @ 25 yds…
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And low in close…
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I intend to triple check all this this weekend, paying closer attention to the precision of my zero. Then I’ll check to see where my POI and holds are @ longer distances. Then I’ll make a final decision on whether to use a close 15 or 25 yd zero.

[JCN]

Chomps

This is unsolicited advice, feel free to disregard.

I have a bunch of 8-11” MPX that I zero regularly.

Ballistic calculators for pistols usually assume pistol barrel length and velocity.

PCC can pick up 100-300 fps depending on the ammunition.

If you’re going calculate ballistic drop, you have to chrono the ammo out of your barrel or find data from someone with a similar gun.

My procedure for zeroing:

1. Wheeler laser to get optic close at home. I usually try and match it up at about 20 yards or so with the laser.

2. Go to range and get the most rock stable rest or position I can possibly get. I have a couple of really SOLID rests that don’t allow any wobble. And I pin myself into a corner so I’m not wobbly either.

3. Use 2” round pasters on a clean sheet of copy paper.

4. At 7 yards, I’ll take a shot and adjust windage to try and get dead on. Will also try and put the elevation to impact about 1-2 inches low. If the shot is at center or higher, I dial it down or else it’ll definitely be too high at distance.

5. Then I’ll move the target out and take a few more shots. But call each shot. If you have a bad press, ignore that impact. I’ll usually take a couple at 15, but dial elevation down if any shots are at or above center. At that distance on the 2” circle, if your aim is dead on the impacts should be just towards the bottom of the circle.

6. Then I’ll move out at 25 yards and take 3-5 of the best trigger presses I can muster and then check the target. If they’re reasonably clustered around the center, I’m done. If not, adjust and repeat.

A modern gun should be able to do a 2” group, so do your part.

For something like a self defense gun, I’ll do all the steps with training ammunition of similar velocity to the carry ammo. Then just 1-2 shots at the end to confirm.

Typically if I have a good rest and good trigger presses, I can get the whole process done in under 10 rounds.

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[MickAK]

For the record,.. technically, this is a pistol. Not a “long rifle.” It’s a Foxtrot Mike, 9mm AR. PCC with a 1:10 Twist, 10” barrel.

However, I was not using a pistol calculator for my bullet drop calculations. (…it was some online ballistic calc I found.) It did have a section for height over bore for the sights & IIR,.. I used 2.5” or 3” since the AEMS Holosun sight sits very high.

I figured since it is technically a pistol, and intended as a PDW, that a closer zero would be somewhat preferable. My thoughts were,.. “Zero it @ the desired up close distance,.. then document where my POI landed at various other distances,.. and adjust my hold over accordingly.”

Full disclosure,.. I’ve changed zero a couple times. Initially, I tried different zero distances. One of which was 25 yds. IIR, My first zero was @ 10 yds I believe. And my precision and accuracy was much better. (…pretty much punched out the bullseye). Im not sure why I decided to change it. But I decided to try a 25 yd zero. Unfortunately, Between my astigmatism and poor distance vision,.. Even with my glasses, I just wasn’t happy with the results. I can’t recall my exact objection, But POI and grouping @ different distances wasn’t what I hoped. So I went back to using a closer zero and settled on 15 yds.
.

I think you might want to review what zero means and what you're trying to do. You've gotten some good advice, might want to slow down and take a look at what people are trying to tell you and make sure you understand.

[rob_s]

Sorry if I missed it in the wall of text…

What’s the use case for this gun again?

Somewhere I have a thread here about zeroing a PCC for competition purposes (I think, Ayre I’m also remembering wrong.

IMO you should “zero” for your intended purpose, understanding that “zero” is your second intersection and what most people “zero” a pcc for is the initial intersection.

Fwiw I like to zero real carbines at the peak of the ballistic curve so I’m only dealing with hold-overs, never hold-unders. I don’t do the same for pcc

Also it’s worth noting that a drift right or left as distance increases is a common problem. It means you aren’t really zero’s for windage at your initial intersection, you just think you are. As distance increases the error becomes more evident. Set your windage at the further distance.

[rob_s]

Here’s the thread I referenced
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50724-Zeroing-Optic-for-PCC

[JCN]

…understanding that “zero” is your second intersection and what most people “zero” a pcc for is the initial intersection.

Fwiw I like to zero real carbines at the peak of the ballistic curve so I’m only dealing with hold-overs, never hold-unders. I don’t do the same for pcc

“Maximum point blank range” is a great concept and I like that very much.

With a 150gr pistol cartridge going at around 1000-1100 out of a PCC that top of the curve is around 35 yards… but 25 yards is pretty close to the plateau and it doesn’t rise much after that point. Useable plateau out to 80+ which is about as far as I would ever use in competition (or realistic self defense in my location) so I would be good with that.

Plus, when you take into account the types of targets, speed requirement and distance… a plateau +/- 1 inch at 25-80 yards is going to be well within noise of movement and skill for any kind of time requiring use.

A 25 yard zero for a slow bullet puts you less than 2 inches low even at bad breath and narrows to 1 or less across a hallway. Aim for the high thoracic and hit the lower high thoracic. Aim for the eyes and hit the face.

What I DON’T want is to have to worry about sending rounds OVER their head so a rising zero is much better for me in a self defense zero.

That’s just me personally.

Also FWIW from the other thread you linked, I was using an X95 in that thread with an extreme height over bore.

Now with MPX and JP5, I can zero at the center dot and use the bottom ring of the reticle close up for holdover.

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From 25-80 yards I’m not accurate enough to worry about the 1 inch rise to full peak.

[Chomps]

I think you might want to review what zero means and what you're trying to do. You've gotten some good advice, might want to slow down and take a look at what people are trying to tell you and make sure you understand.

Which is EXACTLY why & what I hoped to accomplish by posting itfp! Understand, Im not being sarcastic, flip or dismissive,.. but what is it that you believe I “don’t understand” about what Zero means?

I thought “ZEROING” meant that you adjust your sights/RD so that your POA/POI intersect at a chosen distance. If I’m wrong or have missed something basic about that process or definition, please inform me. That’s what I’m here for. Im new to ALL of this and Im sure I misunderstand and get stuff wrong all the time.

Also,…. I am most definitely paying attention to the advice being given. I’ve bookmarked most of it and as I already mentioned, I intend to attempt to fix, and re-do the entire process this weekend to see if I can correct those High/Right Hits!



Sorry if I missed it in the wall of text…

What’s the use case for this gun again?

Somewhere I have a thread here about zeroing a PCC for competition purposes (I think, Ayre I’m also remembering wrong.


Ok, first,.. Thank you for the link. I appreciate the additional information.

Second,.. in this case, I am being just a little bit flip,… 🤣😉
…I object to the characterization of my post as a “WOT!” It has paragraphs,.. it has punctuation,. Obviously not CORRECT punctuation, but it HAS punctuation! I regularly annoy the HELL out of the Grammar Nazis online!! 🤣🤣🤣. (The only subject I sucked worse at than math? Was English composition! LOL)

If anything,.. I feel my post falls under the category “TL;DR!!” 😉. As for that,… I’m just trying to be thorough and basically,.. I’m a long winded SOB! Lol

And thirdly,… To address your second point, what you may have missed in my TL; DR post was that this weapons intended use is as a PDW. Not for use in competition. Hence my thinking a closer Zero might be preferable. 🤷

I keep reading (…online reviews, YT vids, etc.) that 9mm, and shorter Pistol build type PCC’s are not intended to be long distance shooters. Altho some of these guys appear to be getting good hits @ 100-200+ yds,… so I was trying to focus more on accurate, Up Close sighting than anything else. My confusion was, and still is, created by experiencing having those rounds continue to Rise & hit Higher & Higher @ Distance, instead of dropping as I expected them to do!


I agree with JCN regarding NOT wanting rounds to get lobbed over the intended target and risk a potential hit on unintended people, places or things!! THAT is DEFINITELY something I desire to avoid.

It’s obvious I need to research this subject a little further. Again,.. I appreciate all the feedback!

[WobblyPossum]

If you’re still confused about the high/right hits, we probably aren’t explaining things well enough. The ballistic calculator you’re using to estimate what your bullet should do in relation to your line of sight is only accurate if all of the data input is accurate. Garbage in = Garbage out. The calculator is based on having a perfect 15y zero and exact numbers for bullet weight, velocity, ballistic coefficient, etc. You don’t have a proper 15y zero because your rounds are impacting about an inch high and right compared to your POA, which I’m assuming is the tiny dot in the center of the target from your posts. You have a near zero (where the path of your bullet first crosses your line of sight) for a distance, but that distance isn’t 15y. If it was 15y, your rounds would be impacting exactly into your POA.

Also, the optic adjustments in minute of angle (MOA) are fixed at whatever the manufacturer set them at. I’m going to use 0.5 MOA for ease. I don’t know if that’s what your optic actually does. At 15y, 1 MOA is approximately 0.15” and 0.5 MOA is something like 0.075”. If you’re an inch off to the upper right from your POA, that’s like 7 MOA at that distance. That’s 14 clicks if each click is half an MOA. An MOA is an angular relationship so once you start backing off to 25y, 7 MOA isn’t 1 inch anymore. It’s 1.75 inches. At 50y, 7 MOA is 3.5”. It’s also easier to make exact adjustments at farther without overshooting or undershooting your intended POI. If each click at 15y is 0.075”, how easy is it to get the exact perfect amount of clicks you need? At 50y, it’s easier because each click is 0.25” at half an MOA and that’s a number most people can understand and visualize more easily (again, assuming your optic has 0.5 MOA/click adjustments). That’s why many people looking for an exact zero will make windage adjustments at the farther ranges even if their zero is closer than those distances.

ETA: here is a photo of a couple of groups with my APC9 Pro, a similar firearm. It’s a 9mm with a 6.8” barrel. I zeroed at 25y with Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P. At 25y, things looked dead on but it’s hard to judge fractions of an inch that small. Here is a group fired at 50y and a group fired at 100y. Both groups looked a smidge to the right so I adjusted 1 click (05. MOA for my optic) which should move the 50y group 0.25” to the left and the 100y group 0.5” to the left. I’m satisfied with that. At the zero distance of 25y, I wouldn’t have noticed anything if I moved the zero one click because at that range one click is about 0.125”.

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[LittleLebowski]

1. Wheeler laser (https://amazon.com/Wheeler-Professional-Laser-Sighter-Green/dp/B007WQJCWC/)to get optic close at home. I usually try and match it up at about 20 yards or so with the laser.



I'll be damned, I had no idea such a thing existed and it's on sale. Ordered.

[CCT125US]

WobblyPossum nailed it and saved me from typing alot.

[JCN]

I'll be damned, I had no idea such a thing existed and it's on sale. Ordered.

You know I buy everything in order to test everything.

This was one of those things that exceeded expectations even though I thought it was going to be cheesy.

Mine is consistently a couple MOA to the left but again, consistent.

The ability to use it no matter the caliber is awesome.

It’s good enough that for close up stuff I sometimes don’t even zero live if no chance. It’s also a way to spot check if your mounts have shifted.

I liked it so much that I recommended it to others like GJM who is now a super fan.

[JCN]

Chomps where you went wrong IMO is not correcting your impact when you got to 25 yards. There’s no point in going out further when 25 shows you that your 15 was wrong.

So at that point move it 6 clicks left and 6 clicks down.

For the rising to 100 with a slow bullet, check this out.

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Basically if you’re pointed pretty extremely upwards rising to 100 is what you’ll see.

It’s like a mortar basically lol.

That’s a 7 yard zero.

Here is my recommendation:

For self defense distances, 25-50 yards is probably going to be the extreme maximum.

So keeping it fairly flat at that distance is good. And everything shy of that will be within 1-3 inches of the dot.

If you use the circle reticle of the AEMS, you can use the bottom of the circle to show you the max holdover.

[Chuck Whitlock]

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IMO you should “zero” for your intended purpose, understanding that “zero” is your second intersection and what most people “zero” a pcc for is the initial intersection.

Based solely on that chart, what Rob is saying is to zero at 80 yards and then verify at 15 yards. Now, your group make look more like a pattern at that distance, but your POA should be in the center of that pattern. Then verify at the closer distances.

[Chomps]

Wow! It’s even worse than y’all explained. Just re-read the AEMS Manual before heading to the range. The zero adjustments for it are in ONE HALF MOA @100 yds! :0. So even with using a 25yd Zero,.. Im only moving my POA/POI By an EIGHTH of an inch per click. Which means @ my 10-15 yds zeros, I was probably only moving my poi by a mm or two per click. :facepalm:

So,… for my range session today,.. I’m gonna do my damnedest (…old eyes, arthritis & all) to get a good, dead on, balls accurate 25yd zero and then maybe next weekend I can go hit the hundred yard range. See what that does for my POI @85 & 100yds.

Depending on how that looks I might then try to adjust for a 50 yd zero.

I’ll post up the results here after.

[WobblyPossum]

Most red dots that aren’t meant to be mounted on handguns use 0.5 MOA/click adjustments. Understand that doesn’t just mean at 100y, that’s at any distance because because an MOA is a consistent relationship based on angles. Reread my longer post where I used 0.5 MOA/click as an example and it’ll have the distances each click is moving your POI at 15y, 25y, and 50y.

I like your idea of starting with the best 25y zero you can put together. Then you can true your windage at 50y like I explained in my previous post. You’ll be in a much better position than you were at the start of the thread.

[psalms144.1]

You've gotten all the advice you need already. I'll just add that my FM9 pistol (7" barrel) is zero'd at 50 yards, because that's as far as I can reasonably do a workable zero with that pistol/ammo combination. I then start at 12 yards to see offset - it's minimal for defensive purposes. The longest shot I could possibly conceive of having justification for in my situation is a laser-measured 107 yards, so I shot at that range and figured out my hold over.

The closer you zero, the more "mortar like" your ballistics will be. The further out you can stretch that zero, the "flatter" your PCC will shoot.

[Chomps]

Most red dots that aren’t meant to be mounted on handguns use 0.5 MOA/click adjustments. Understand that doesn’t just mean at 100y, that’s at any distance because because an MOA is a consistent relationship based on angles. Reread my longer post where I used 0.5 MOA/click as an example and it’ll have the distances each click is moving your POI at 15y, 25y, and 50y.

I like your idea of starting with the best 25y zero you can put together. Then you can true your windage at 50y like I explained in my previous post. You’ll be in a much better position than you were at the start of the thread.

Oh I definitely read & re-read your post,.. (along with ALL the others.)

I appreciate everyone’s feedback. Nothing I post in reply is intended, or should be construed as a “Yeah But..!” Anything I pist,.. if it reads that way? It was actually just me trying to be thorough, or clearer in my confusion/topic/question or information.

I’m far too new at this to be so arrogant as to “yeah but” guys with a lot more time and experience. 😉. To that I will only say, I use Sage dynamics advice When it comes to getting advice online,… “If it sounds good, give it a try. But verify with using your own DOPE! (… can you tell I just learned a new Acronym!) 🤣👍🏻

[Chomps]

So,.. been to the range and redid my carry ammo zero to 25yds. (Federal 147 HST) Took the “pistol” to the State Game Area and set up some targets @ roughly 40-45 yds and 50-56yds. (Assuming an appx 1yd stride)😉

As you all informed me would be the case,.. my POA/POI shift on targets at those distances was not significantly different than @25 yds. In fact my first shot @50 I assumed would be high so I aimed low. I was surprised when I hit right where I aimed. So I switched to a POA on my desired POI hold and pretty much hit where I aimed. My zero was good,.. my groups not so much. But that had more to do with my limited skills, experience and my eyesight. (Dot bloom & target focus, etc)

Still,.. I did pretty well @40y and 50.

In close it shoots a few inches low. (@7-8yds & closer.) But that’s really easy to adjust for. And even shouldered instead of benched I can get a fairly quick, well aimed, decently tight group at those distances.


I checked the new zero @ the indoor range /w my training ammo. Mostly Norma & Gecko 124 fmj. With the Norma there is definitely a POI shift of about 2.5”-3” inches high at 25 yards. I confirmed this with several targets and upon changing my POA hold accordingly, I was hitting where I wanted.

So once again,.. thanks to all for your excellent advice.

ps: I’ve ordered a Holosun HM3XT 3X magnifier for my AEMS red dot. Once it gets here I’ll hit the hundred yard range and see if my zero is still holding well at that distance.


Here’s Some Range pics just fer fun: 😁

(1st shots to confirm my initial 15 y zero was still High/Right.)
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Adjusted Shots:
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Oak Grove, State Game Area:
Silhouette @50-56yds, 3D Torso @40-45yds Weapon braced.
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10 shots: 7 in 3” circle,.. 3 in da face. (1 in torso’s L eye)
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[JCN]

Chomps

When I zero, I turn my dot brightness way down.

[Chomps]

Chomps

When I zero, I turn my dot brightness way down.

Yup,.. did that. Had it turned down just above the threshold where it disappears. Still booms a bit. When brighter? It appears comet like. Honestly, I think my distance rx may not be corrected enough for my astigmatism. (…then of course there’s my poor or non existent technique, etc. lol) 🤷🤣😉

Hard to tell from these low rez pics, but I had some 4”-6”-8” & 10” steel gongs out in that field also. Spread out Between 12-35yds. I did ok clanging them with the weapon shouldered. Not super impressive, but not a complete klutz either. 😁.

Steel shoot Video. …be gentle!🤣


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3yyJQFohAa4&feature=youtu.be

[Chomps]

So the 3X magnifier is pretty sweet. Definitely tighter groups @ distance with it than just the RD alone. Only seems limited by my p*%# poor distance vision. Looks pretty bad assed tho! :D ;) 🤣

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Checked & tuned my 25 yd Zero and then tested my FMP9 PCC & carry ammo @ distances from 15-100 yards. Here are the results.

1st 25 yd group:
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After several L/R windage adjustments. Seems no matter how small an adjustment I make, I’m either a tad left or a tad to the right. (… Also Range bench rest was abused crap. LOTS of slop to overcome. Frustrating!) :facepalm:

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Final 25 yd group:
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Now at Various distances: (/w 3x)
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It is apparent to me that there is a need to get some training AND do something to better correct my distance vision if I want to get consistently tighter groups at these greater distances. But for now,.. I am reasonably pleased with those 2.5” x 3” groups at 75 and 100 yards. 😎

[Edit:]
On the last image, the top 100 yard group, on the bottom four hits, my POA was the bull’s-eye. The one higher hit to the R, over the 100 notation, was me trying to compensate. 🤷*♂️


Thanks to all who took the time to comment and give suggestions/Advice! I Greatly appreciate it. Hopefully you didn’t find my post too basic & boring. 😁

[psalms144.1]

Chomps - one piece of advice - at a certain point, chasing "perfect" on zero is counterproductive. I'm more concerned that your 25 yard zero appears to have shifted pretty drastically from the last really good zero to the one you posted as your first target in the last post. One of three things is happening:

1. Your mount is loose
2. Your optic is faulty
3. You're inducing some weirdness into the PCC (POA, trigger, rest, whatever), then trying to "zero" it out

I wouldn't make ANY more adjustments to the optic. Shoot it in realistic conditions - standing, kneeling, prone at ranges from 3-100 yards. I know that my "perfect" zero shot rested from a bench does NOT equate to where my rifle shoots when I'm standing/kneeling or shooting around cover.

But, overall - I wouldn't be unhappy with any of those groups at the ranges you're shooting. Good work!

[JCN]

Chomps - one piece of advice - at a certain point, chasing "perfect" on zero is counterproductive. I'm more concerned that your 25 yard zero appears to have shifted pretty drastically from the last really good zero to the one you posted as your first target in the last post. One of three things is happening:

1. Your mount is loose
2. Your optic is faulty
3. You're inducing some weirdness into the PCC (POA, trigger, rest, whatever), then trying to "zero" it out

I wouldn't make ANY more adjustments to the optic. Shoot it in realistic conditions - standing, kneeling, prone at ranges from 3-100 yards. I know that my "perfect" zero shot rested from a bench does NOT equate to where my rifle shoots when I'm standing/kneeling or shooting around cover.

But, overall - I wouldn't be unhappy with any of those groups at the ranges you're shooting. Good work!

Could be zero shift with the magnifier, no?

[Doc_Glock]

I'll be damned, I had no idea such a thing existed and it's on sale. Ordered.

Bro...it's just the best.

[Dov]

Wow! It’s even worse than y’all explained. Just re-read the AEMS Manual before heading to the range. The zero adjustments for it are in ONE HALF MOA @100 yds! :0. So even with using a 25yd Zero,.. Im only moving my POA/POI By an EIGHTH of an inch per click. Which means @ my 10-15 yds zeros, I was probably only moving my poi by a mm or two per click. :facepalm:

So,… for my range session today,.. I’m gonna do my damnedest (…old eyes, arthritis & all) to get a good, dead on, balls accurate 25yd zero and then maybe next weekend I can go hit the hundred yard range. See what that does for my POI @85 & 100yds.

Depending on how that looks I might then try to adjust for a 50 yd zero.

I’ll post up the results here after.

Just a word of encouragement, this is what the real path to mastery/success looks like.

Surviving and learning from failure is the key to success, its those who endlessly repeat failure without ever learning from it that are umm SOL.

People that are truly interested in improving want to find errors and such because that is where they learn something new.

just my $0.02

[Chomps]

Chomps - one piece of advice - at a certain point, chasing "perfect" on zero is counterproductive. I'm more concerned that your 25 yard zero appears to have shifted pretty drastically from the last really good zero to the one you posted as your first target in the last post. One of three things is happening:

1. Your mount is loose
2. Your optic is faulty
3. You're inducing some weirdness into the PCC (POA, trigger, rest, whatever), then trying to "zero" it out

I wouldn't make ANY more adjustments to the optic. Shoot it in realistic conditions - standing, kneeling, prone at ranges from 3-100 yards. I know that my "perfect" zero shot rested from a bench does NOT equate to where my rifle shoots when I'm standing/kneeling or shooting around cover.

But, overall - I wouldn't be unhappy with any of those groups at the ranges you're shooting. Good work!

Yeah,.. if I understand which 25yd zero images you’re referring to,.. I forgot to mention that between those range sessions, I had to remove, move & re-mount the red dot to accommodate spacing for the offset irons & the new 3X magnifier. Im going to assume that’s why there was such a dramatic shift.

However,.. I will keep that all in mind to watch for next range visit! Thanks.

[psalms144.1]

Yeah,.. if I understand which 25yd zero images you’re referring to,.. I forgot to mention that between those range sessions, I had to remove, move & re-mount the red dot to accommodate spacing for the offset irons & the new 3X magnifier. Im going to assume that’s why there was such a dramatic shift.

However,.. I will keep that all in mind to watch for next range visit! Thanks.That will DEFINITELY explain it! Keep up the good work, and remember, this is supposed to be fun!

[Chomps]

…I wouldn't make ANY more adjustments to the optic. Shoot it in realistic conditions - standing, kneeling, prone at ranges from 3-100 yards. I know that my "perfect" zero shot rested from a bench does NOT equate to where my rifle shoots when I'm standing/kneeling or shooting around cover.

But, overall - I wouldn't be unhappy with any of those groups at the ranges you're shooting. Good work!

Thanks!

I had to laugh,.. when I was getting my lane for the 100yd range, The RSO asked to see my ammo. (Making sure no steel core, green tip stuff). I told him “…it’s all 9mm hollow point. Its Carry ammo for a 10.5” PCC.” He just looks at me and says, “Really, 100yds with a 9mm?? Really???” Like it was the weirdest thing he ever heard of. Lol. 🤷*♂️

I just looked at him and said,… “I know where it shoots at 7-10-15 yards! I want to know where it (…or I,) hits at 50, 75 or 100.” 😁