Crime scene outer perimeter access control

[BehindBlueI's]

On some massive scenes we have a ton of non-uniformed and often unsworn personnel who need access to the outer layer of the crime scene (like where incident command is, not the inner perimeter that's the actual crime scene or the ongoing event). As an example, a fatal OIS will have chaplains, victim's assistance, POST (who are sworn but may be responding in civilian attire), FOP reps, attorneys, city legal, rehab van (the guys with snacks and drinks), crime lab, and investigators. Some of those groups do not wear a set dress code, especially if responding from an off duty capacity as an "on call".

PMs are fine, but how are you controlling access to large scenes? Officers are hesitant to challenge someone who's already in the perimeter but I know I've seen people inside that don't need to be. Twice now I've brought this up in AARs and now I'm trying to write a proposal to fix our general orders and our MOU with civilian partners.

I'm thinking of a lanyard system with two colors of lanyards, one that allows access to outer perimeter and one that allows access to the inner perimeter, for non-uniformed non-sworn personnel. My thinking is lanyards can be over any type of clothing, aren't covered if you need to put on a rain coat, can be seen from a distance, and are cheap to purchase and provide. We don't want to issue badges to non-sworn personnel and volunteers.

GO would be amended for crime scene management that any officer is responsible for challenging someone without a lanyard and directing them to the command post to attain one before allowing them under the tape anywhere else.

I'd be interested in how everyone else is managing major scenes. Keep in mind I'm talking about dozens of civilians on a scene, and on a department that's way too big for everyone to know everyone else even before you get to other city agencies, volunteers, supporting departments, etc. This must also allow for "borrowed" personnel, like a fire dept chaplain, to conform.

[SiriusBlunder]

On some massive scenes we have a ton of non-uniformed and often unsworn personnel who need access to the outer layer of the crime scene (like where incident command is, not the inner perimeter that's the actual crime scene or the ongoing event). As an example, a fatal OIS will have chaplains, victim's assistance, POST (who are sworn but may be responding in civilian attire), FOP reps, attorneys, city legal, rehab van (the guys with snacks and drinks), crime lab, and investigators. Some of those groups do not wear a set dress code, especially if responding from an off duty capacity as an "on call".

PMs are fine, but how are you controlling access to large scenes? Officers are hesitant to challenge someone who's already in the perimeter but I know I've seen people inside that don't need to be. Twice now I've brought this up in AARs and now I'm trying to write a proposal to fix our general orders and our MOU with civilian partners.

I'm thinking of a lanyard system with two colors of lanyards, one that allows access to outer perimeter and one that allows access to the inner perimeter, for non-uniformed non-sworn personnel. My thinking is lanyards can be over any type of clothing, aren't covered if you need to put on a rain coat, can be seen from a distance, and are cheap to purchase and provide. We don't want to issue badges to non-sworn personnel and volunteers.

GO would be amended for crime scene management that any officer is responsible for challenging someone without a lanyard and directing them to the command post to attain one before allowing them under the tape anywhere else.

I'd be interested in how everyone else is managing major scenes. Keep in mind I'm talking about dozens of civilians on a scene, and on a department that's way too big for everyone to know everyone else even before you get to other city agencies, volunteers, supporting departments, etc. This must also allow for "borrowed" personnel, like a fire dept chaplain, to conform.


I have zero LEO experience, but 25+ years in the trade-show/conference/events industry that has similar access control requirements so maybe this will help.

I think your solution will depend on budget and type of work these folks will be doing.

The most general solution is wrist-bands. This works for manual labor/blue collar folks and the white-collar folks. A lanyard/badge is more likely to get in some-ones way when bending over, carrying things, etc,

Budget are some water resistant ones like this:

95649

This issue with this type is they are easily cut off and passed around. Not sure if this type of fraud is an issue for you. (Note: This band was to indicate I had passed COVID testing and was meant to be worn all week. I don't like showering/sleeping with them so I cut it off carefully on the first night and taped it back on the rest of the days. Other folks were getting them, cutting them off, and giving them to their non-vaccinated friends to get them in).

A more secure, but costly, wristband solution is something like this:

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-24335BLU/Wristbands/Plastic-Wristbands-Blue

With either type, you can do "color of the day" to swap things up from scene-to-scene and have different colors grant different level of access. All depends on how many colors you want to stock.

When you say "lanyard" do you mean a colored lanyard with a colored badge? I think a plain lanyard would flop around too much, not to mention the clips they all come with (that I've seen) catching on clothes, etc.

I could see colored lanyards and colored plastic badges like this:

95650

This event had 3 levels of access. "STAFF" was highest, "EXHIBITOR" next, "ATTENDEE" was lowest (never had one). Since the security guards at most venues aren't always the brightest, it was easier for me to have both a STAFF and EXHIBITOR one than to explain a bunch of rules. All badges were printed with bar codes on the back and we scanned them out for accountability and fraud detection.

This approach requires producing and stocking the different types of badges and some knowledge/management of quantities needed.

An easier solution to manage is blank plastic badges and then a colored sticker (low temperature/water resistant) on the front and back where the different colors of stickers indicated access level.

For lanyards, I always recommend to my clients getting the more expensive ones with a "break away" feature to limit liability exposure.

In the TS industry, we mix up colors every day and from event to event to try and cut down on fraud. I could see this maybe being in issue for you by folks that want to gain access and film for social media, a la "Nightcrawler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightcrawler_(film))", but I have no clue if that happens in really life.

[jnc36rcpd]

My first thought would be a double perimeter. One roll of tape would contain the perimeter where command staff, peer support, legal representation, and others may need to be. A second and smaller perimeter would contain the actual crime scene where only detectives and forensic science people would be allowed. This would preferably be marked by a different color tape. In addition to the practical aspects of this protocol, it allows self-important people to duch under the tape so they can be seen.

As to the actual crime scene, I'd suggest a log of everyone who enters (which, of course, should be done anyway) coupled with a mention that they will likely be summonsed to court. If your forensics people like the rubber booties, gloving up, and wearing protective suits, your crime scene tourists should as well. Not only does that make good sense, it will discourage sightseeing at the scene.

Of course, this may not be practical if your crime scene involves something like a vehicle or foot pursuit, but it may work for most large crime scenes.

[BehindBlueI's]

My first thought would be a double perimeter. One roll of tape would contain the perimeter where command staff, peer support, legal representation, and others may need to be. A second and smaller perimeter would contain the actual crime scene where only detectives and forensic science people would be allowed.

Sure, we do all that with the exception of different colored tape. My question is strictly reference that outer perimeter where all "the others" go:


On some massive scenes we have a ton of non-uniformed and often unsworn personnel who need access to the outer layer of the crime scene (like where incident command is, not the inner perimeter that's the actual crime scene or the ongoing event).

[jnc36rcpd]

That said, the lanyard idea seems workable. Someone would have to issue lanyards, of course. I considered the idea of permanently issuing them to some positions but that raises the risk that someone not assigned to a particular incident might show up as a tourist. For instance, unless a criminalist is actually doing criminalistics, you don't want them entering your scene to visit colleagues or look at an interesting murder.

I also wonder if placing the command post farther away might help from the processing viewpoint. The command officials and CP detail should not have hangers on in and around the command post, but that is a different issue than a crime scene tourist who may destroy evidence and complicate investigation or trial. On one occasion, I was on the scene of a unknown cause death on above ground subway tracks. While not practical for most agencies, the Metro Transit Police had two command vehicles on scene. One was the larger vehicle located at the nearest Metro station while the smaller was a forward command post located much closer to the death scene (and staffed by much lower ranking people who were doing actual work).

[BehindBlueI's]

That said, the lanyard idea seems workable. Someone would have to issue lanyards, of course. I considered the idea of permanently issuing them to some positions but that raises the risk that someone not assigned to a particular incident might show up as a tourist. For instance, unless a criminalist is actually doing criminalistics, you don't want them entering your scene to visit colleagues or look at an interesting murder.

I also wonder if placing the command post farther away might help from the processing viewpoint. The command officials and CP detail should not have hangers on in and around the command post, but that is a different issue than a crime scene tourist who may destroy evidence and complicate investigation or trial. On one occasion, I was on the scene of a unknown cause death on above ground subway tracks. While not practical for most agencies, the Metro Transit Police had two command vehicles on scene. One was the larger vehicle located at the nearest Metro station while the smaller was a forward command post located much closer to the death scene (and staffed by much lower ranking people who were doing actual work).

We have a mobile comm van (van undersells it, it's an RV) that rolls to the scenes I'm discussing. My idea is to have the lanyards in the comm van and make it part of the incident commander's responsibilities. Which means I'd actually be making policy for Operations, or at least recommending it. Luckily my Cpt and Cmmdr both agree this is a problem to solve, so we'll see.

[Erik]

If the lanyard concept makes sense, and they are supposed to be handed out on scene, stickers that have to be applied in a visible location might work also and you could print them in house instead of having to order them. You could probably even print them on scene and have them dated, if the mobile command center has a printer.

[BehindBlueI's]

If the lanyard concept makes sense, and they are supposed to be handed out on scene, stickers that have to be applied in a visible location might work also and you could print them in house instead of having to order them. You could probably even print them on scene and have them dated, if the mobile command center has a printer.

I don't want to complicate it any more than need be. My idea is the scribe grabs the bag o' lanyards and hands them out as people get signed in to the outer perimeter then they hand them back in when they sign out. Which, technically, nobody other than Tac Ops does right now. Everyone else just leaves, we're not afraid we'll leave a chaplain behind.

I've got buy in from my chain of command, but this has to pass muster with Operations and Administration as well, and that's a tougher sell. Anything that's complicated or adds to manpower needs will get shot down by Ops. Anything that costs more than, say, a large McFlurry will get shot down by Admin. Which is why I'm asking how anyone else is doing it, to bolster odds of acceptance or to get ideas that fit those parameters.

[Erik]

My thought was that it might be cheaper and easier than lanyards in that you can print as many as you need on sticker sheets, so no special order from a vendor and you don't have to try and get them back. They use stickers like this at an area museum I'm a member of and it seems pretty effective. But this is far outside my area of, well, anything.

[Lost River]

Badgers.

A van load of badgers released on the outer perimeter will cut right down on the senior management walking around mucking up crime scenes, and the various non essential people who just plain should not be there.

Badgers.

The redheaded ex-wives of the animal kingdom.

[BehindBlueI's]

Badgers.

A van load of badgers released on the outer perimeter will cut right down on the senior management walking around mucking up crime scenes, and the various non essential people who just plain should not be there.

Badgers.

The redheaded ex-wives of the animal kingdom.

Admin: City does not have an approved badger vendor. No funds currently exist for badger procurement. Manpower does not currently allow for Badger Caretaker position.

I'm going to be real lucky to get $20 for lanyards, and that'll come out of the Homicide slush fund that's used to buy CostCo cakes for retirees.

[CleverNickname]

Badgers.

A van load of badgers released on the outer perimeter will cut right down on the senior management walking around mucking up crime scenes, and the various non essential people who just plain should not be there.

Badgers.

The redheaded ex-wives of the animal kingdom.

https://youtu.be/gx6TBrfCW54?t=25

[Cookie Monster]

Admin: City does not have an approved badger vendor. No funds currently exist for badger procurement. Manpower does not currently allow for Badger Caretaker position.

I'm going to be real lucky to get $20 for lanyards, and that'll come out of the Homicide slush fund that's used to buy CostCo cakes for retirees.

I still support the procurement of badgers. I need to deploy a dozen of those mofos them in the current building I work in.

[jnc36rcpd]

The badger idea seems the best yet. That said, command support on the issue seems more important than any gear or policy approach we could decide.
seers People should not be visiting the crime scene just to look around. Unless contributing to solving the incident, random command officers, politicians, or anyone else shouldn't be visiting or loitering at the command post. If the department is committed to that concept, word will get around. We could debate lanyards versus wristbands versus whatever, but a change in policy or gear will discourage sight seeing at crime scenes.

[BehindBlueI's]

The badger idea seems the best yet. That said, command support on the issue seems more important than any gear or policy approach we could decide.
seers People should not be visiting the crime scene just to look around. Unless contributing to solving the incident, random command officers, politicians, or anyone else shouldn't be visiting or loitering at the command post. If the department is committed to that concept, word will get around. We could debate lanyards versus wristbands versus whatever, but a change in policy or gear will discourage sight seeing at crime scenes.

From my first post:


a fatal OIS will have chaplains, victim's assistance, POST (who are sworn but may be responding in civilian attire), FOP reps, attorneys, city legal, rehab van (the guys with snacks and drinks), crime lab, and investigators.

Tourists aren't the problem, the sheer number of personnel required on a massive incident is.

[sickeness]

I can tell you from experience that trying to get a bunch of cops to keep inventory of lanyards and wristbands and pass them out to people is going to be like herding cats. If the coppers can't keep track of them they sure as shit ain't gonna be responsible for handing out ID devices too.

I think you are way overthinking this.

I'm my experience, everyone not uniformed that needs to be there like coroners, union reps, post, detectives, should already have visible identifiers. If not, then there is definitely an issue of professionalism that should be addressed with that agency's management: even if I respond from on call, I'll always have my badge clipped to my belt or around my neck.

Anyone else should be doing what they need to do at the station. As in the victims assist, chaplains, etc.

Just make it simple policy that if your are at the CP, you need to have some type of ID showing. I can't imagine any entity that would have business there that doesn't issue their employees ID. It shouldn't be your responsibility to babysit adults.

[UNM1136]

Not all badges need to be on a scene either.

A while back my agency had an OIS that also involved another agency. The other agency had the resources (bodies, mobile command post, mobile crime lab, evidence techs). They took the lead, with the blessing of our command staff. The command staff, first and foremost enjoying the privilege of rank,, and secondarily knowing the internal political positioning decided to take a bigwig and "tour" the crime scene. They lifted the tape and entered, creating an incident with the other agency's investigations division.

They had no reason to be there, accepted the investigative assistance, and assumed thier rank indicated that they were allowed to do as they pleased. They were wrong. A least the COPs film crew that filmed the aftermath of the shooting knew to stay out of the way...

"But, but but,I am the Operations Commander, this is the Support Services Commander, and this is the Chief of Police, and this shooting occurred inside 30 feet of our side of the jurisdictional boundry...."

pat

[BehindBlueI's]

I can tell you from experience that trying to get a bunch of cops to keep inventory of lanyards and wristbands and pass them out to people is going to be like herding cats. If the coppers can't keep track of them they sure as shit ain't gonna be responsible for handing out ID devices too.

I think you are way overthinking this.

I'm my experience, everyone not uniformed that needs to be there like coroners, union reps, post, detectives, should already have visible identifiers. If not, then there is definitely an issue of professionalism that should be addressed with that agency's management: even if I respond from on call, I'll always have my badge clipped to my belt or around my neck.

Anyone else should be doing what they need to do at the station. As in the victims assist, chaplains, etc.

Just make it simple policy that if your are at the CP, you need to have some type of ID showing. I can't imagine any entity that would have business there that doesn't issue their employees ID. It shouldn't be your responsibility to babysit adults.

Lots of people have badges and/or IDs and aren't supposed to be in the perimeter. Without going in to detail, that's why this is an issue and why it needs to be something readily visible from a distance, like half a block away or more, not face to face. The mere act of having to sign for a lanyard would alleviate much of that, frankly.

I find when you make *one* officer responsible for things, that thing is taken care of. When you make a *group* of officers responsible, much less likely. Being accountable vs tragedy of the commons.

[jnc36rcpd]

BehindBluel, I suspect there are some interesting stories behind this discussion perhaps best told over a beer in some dark pub rather than on the Internet.

I think the idea of a designated scene security officer has some validity. I think the issue may be assigning someone with the experience, rank, and/or nerve to keep important and self-important people of various ranks and agencies on the correct side of the crime scene tape. The officer who can handle that job is also one you could probably use elsewhere at a scene like this.

[BehindBlueI's]

BehindBluel, I suspect there are some interesting stories behind this discussion perhaps best told over a beer in some dark pub rather than on the Internet.

I think the idea of a designated scene security officer has some validity. I think the issue may be assigning someone with the experience, rank, and/or nerve to keep important and self-important people of various ranks and agencies on the correct side of the crime scene tape. The officer who can handle that job is also one you could probably use elsewhere at a scene like this.

Well, the good news is on these sorts of scenes I have no shortage of manpower. And it's not sworn officers who are the problem here *generally*. It's civilian employees. Yes, there's more to the story. The best way to put it is some specialists don't seem to respect their speciality and some generalists think they should be anywhere sworn can be. The issue with just relying on IDs is it doesn't tell the perimeter officers if this particular person belongs at this particular scene. I think this is a 'big department problem' because it's literally impossible to know everyone on the sworn, non-sworn, and contractor/grant funded side. Turn over is so high in some positions you'd do nothing but learn new names. I couldn't pick one of our coronor assistants (body snatchers) out of a photo array today. I don't even know how many professional and volunteer chaplains we currently have.

[TGS]

You have the bodies to spend on access control, and the lanyard is a valid approach that is used elsewhere.

The Incident Commander will obviously be responsible for it, but I imagine he won't be doing it himself. He'll hand it to somebody that will do it, because the IC is going to have more pressing demands (at least per my experience as both branch command and incident command).

Is that "somebody" a person that will legitimately understand who is to get a lanyard and who isn't, and challenge those individuals that do push back? My thought is that this plan isn't viable unless executed by one of the permanent personnel in the command post team that goes to every scene, and isn't already burdened by other duties (the scribe generally having their hands full, for instance). I think there's some significant challenges that would make the plan fall apart right away if you're going to rely on the average bear to accomplish this, unless you have designated individuals on each shift who actually understand the importance of what they're doing and how to do it......which, frankly, is very unrealistic.

We do a lot of access control in another context, but the part concerning who does/doesn't get access is something that is figured out beforehand...not on the fly, at the access control point. In our context, the people who need a lanyard already have it....if that makes sense. It's personally issued just like their gun and badge.

[BehindBlueI's]

You have the bodies to spend on access control, and the lanyard is a valid approach that is used elsewhere.

The Incident Commander will obviously be responsible for it, but I imagine he won't be doing it himself. He'll hand it to somebody that will do it, because the IC is going to have more pressing demands (at least per my experience as both branch command and incident command).

Is that "somebody" a person that will legitimately understand who is to get a lanyard and who isn't, and challenge those individuals that do push back? My thought is that this plan isn't viable unless executed by one of the permanent personnel in the command post team that goes to every scene, and isn't already burdened by other duties (the scribe generally having their hands full, for instance). I think there's some significant challenges that would make the plan fall apart right away if you're going to rely on the average bear to accomplish this, unless you have designated individuals on each shift who actually understand the importance of what they're doing and how to do it......which, frankly, is very unrealistic.

We do a lot of access control in another context, but the part concerning who does/doesn't get access is something that is figured out beforehand...not on the fly, at the access control point. In our context, the people who need a lanyard already have it....if that makes sense. It's personally issued just like their gun and badge.


Command staff has picked up my lanyard idea, but the mere discussion has spurred some changes in at least one assisting entity. They are now to immediately seek out an Invest supervisor at the scene, via runner/radio if they can't get to us from the "outside" of the tape, and clarify where they are allowed to be and what functions are needed at that moment. We're also introducing a set rally point for civilian personnel near the CP for when they aren't actively engaged in their task (coroner's assistant, for example, who'll be needed in the crime scene shortly but not yet). Luckily, it'll also be right by the snack wagon/rehab tent so it shouldn't be a hard sell. Sit here in the shade and eat snickers until you're needed.

Ideally, they would all be wearing polos that immediately identified who they were with, but we don't control them enough to dictate that sort of policy.

[jnc36rcpd]

Good for you and your agency. I suspected that culture and attitude might have much to do with the problem.

No knowledge of your department, but I suspect the wellness trend may be coming back to bite us (and, perhaps, not doing that much to help us). If chaplains or peer support are roaming around a scene "checking on" or "helping" officers, it's time to reign them in. A friend was incident commander for an aircraft crash. A small plane had struck a townhouse. Houses were on fire, people were dead or missing, plague, locusts, dogs and cats sleeping together when a sworn officer on the peer support team phoned the command vehicle to offer their services. Thanks, busy, maybe later, he was told. He pops into the command vehicle shortly thereafter to say peer support is now on scene. I would have assigned them to traffic control posts, but I suspect my friend's GTFOOH was as effective as scattering peer support.

I will remark that as woke as my former department was before being woke was cool, we did fire a volunteer chaplain or two for not recognizing lane markings.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think this has largely ran it's course. Other than badgers, not much new info has been developed and many of the answers are solving problems that aren't the problem, and I can't be more specific so it's a useless conversation at this point.