Zero shift with an Aimpoint magnifier

[Andy T]

This week I was out refining a zero on an AR. It has Aimpoint Comp M5. I also mounted Aimpoint 3x-c magnifier behind it. With the dot only, I was getting hits on steel at 100 yards. With a magnifier, the dot shifted about half an IPSC width to the right and I was missing the steel.
How common are magnifier zero shifts? I tried adjusting the windage screw on the magnifier but didn't feel like continuing and removed it.

Is this a common occurrence? Should the rifle be zeroed with a magnifier in place instead?

[BWT]

I don’t own a magnifier, but I do know there is nuance that doesn’t seem readily apparent to zeroing with magnifiers.

I’ll leave this link and leave it at I know there are folks that zero with magnifier specifically and then whatever it is without is what it is and now I see even with different brand magnifiers those are able to be zero’d. I don’t own a magnifier, but what you’re experiencing is not unheard of and folks work around it with various methods depending on the gear, etc. in question.

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/red-dot-magnifier-zeroing-sage-dynamics/

I was shocked to find out it was a thing being parallax free and all but it is a thing indeed.

[sickeness]

All magnifiers have shift. It has to do with the lens surfaces not all lining up perpendicular.
Pressburg went into detail about this in the past on one of the P&S pocasts. IIRC eotechs have it less since the glass on the holo is flat.

Common practice is to zero at distance with the magnifier accept shift at close range.

[GJM]

I just zeroed with an Eotech EXPS and Eo magnifier, and didn't notice a shift although I was looking for one. Wasn't at the level of science, just done groups with and without, so I will check again.

[Wayne Dobbs]

So I have a decent amount of experience with the Aimpoint Micro H-2 and 3X-C combo with both optics in LaRue mounts. Once you adjust the coaxiality of the optic and magnifier I've found no issues with the BZO shifting either with or without the magnifier in place. BTW, it's a Texas deer killing machine!

[TCB]

I’ve been using a Aimpoint 3x behind micros for nearly a decade at work and never had any issues with zero shift. Adjust the magnifier as per directions and you should be good. I’ve made shots out to 600 with a proper hold over and not had any windage issues (other than actual wind).

[theJanitor]

Are you using compatible mounts? it REALLY helps of the optic and the magnifier shre the same centerline. It sometimes takes some going back and forth in dialing out the parallax. I zero with the magnifier, then confirm POI without. I'm alos using the Eotech EXPS magnifier behind EXPS and T2

[Molon]

I was shocked to find out it was a thing being parallax free and all but it is a thing indeed.
What is it that you think is parallax free?

....

[BWT]

What is it that you think is parallax free?

....


Aimpoint red dot sights are operationally parallax-free, which means the visible dot remains parallel to the bore of your weapon no matter what angle your eye is in relation to the sight. Therefore, the user never has to worry about centering the dot inside the sight. If you have a proper zero, when the dot is on the target, so are you.

https://aimpoint.us/about-aimpoint/

Aimpoint and other red dots. I extrapolated from advertisements and phrases used that adding a magnifier even if off center poorly aligned would still be on accuracy wise.

That’s the jist of what I and others were expecting given what we experience with the native dot. Given your background I’m not going to go into further explanation because it’s probably not necessary. But does this make sense?

It just seems counter intuitive to me and this isn’t a deficiency in Aimpoint (I love their dots and just bought a P2) or any other vendor it’s just the nature of magnifying a red dot. It’s just interesting that you can have your dot or head anywhere looking through the optic and it’s on, but throw a 3x on there and it’s off.

[Molon]

Aimpoint sights are not parallax free.

[BWT]

Aimpoint sights are not parallax free.

That makes sense given what we’ve discussed here.

[WobblyPossum]

I don’t think any optics are parallax free. It’s just the nature of light passing through lenses.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Going back to the late 00s, a co-worker of Wayne Dobbs (PN) and a high-end Army guy back at Ft Bragg (most would know the name), within about a week or so of each other, came out and discussed a zero shift issue involving optics on their carbines and fixed 3x magnifiers.

Both had zero'd the optic by itself. They had then gone on to shooting matches, scored COFs using the magnifier, and had unsuccessful, failed outings. These were in places where misses weren't acceptable.

iirc, both strongly recommended zeroing the optic with the magnifier and then learning the change to one's POA/POI without it.

[TCB]

Yup, I zero with the magnifier in place and check without after. I don’t get any noticeable shift at 50 and at longer distances…I generally use the magnifier.

[TGS]

Yup, I zero with the magnifier in place and check without after. I don’t get any noticeable shift at 50 and at longer distances…I generally use the magnifier.

Sample size of 1, but my Vortex 3x magnifier has no significant zero shift. I've shot it out to 300 yards on steel, and even at 300 the rifle it's on strikes true both with and without the magnifier.

Is this issue supposed to be specific to the Aimpoint product?

[TCB]

I wouldn’t suspect so. More of a function of looking threw multiple lenses that may not be perfectly aligned. Been a non issue for me personally but I can see how it may affect some people in some situations with some combinations of gear.

[Mark D]

All magnifiers have shift. It has to do with the lens surfaces not all lining up perpendicular.
Pressburg went into detail about this in the past on one of the P&S pocasts. IIRC eotechs have it less since the glass on the holo is flat.

Common practice is to zero at distance with the magnifier accept shift at close range.

Yes. Chuck has also talked about this on his Patreon page a few times. He's adamant that every magnifier he's used has introduced some shift.

Some other folks don't seem to experience this issue. That might be due to personal variations in vision and perception.

[Odin Bravo One]

The AimPoint may be parallax free, but parallax is a product of magnification…… whether your optic has it or not, you added parallax when you added magnification.

[Andy T]

My theoretical "value add" of a magnifier + RDS vs a LPVO was the ability to plop it on any rifle equipped with a red dot to get some capability. Since all rifles get a RDS, at least, there would be magnification "on demand". Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case and would require zeroing with a magnifier in place.

[theJanitor]

My theoretical "value add" of a magnifier + RDS vs a LPVO was the ability to plop it on any rifle equipped with a red dot to get some capability. Since all rifles get a RDS, at least, there would be magnification "on demand". Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case and would require zeroing with a magnifier in place.

I think this is one place where mounts really matter. A couple of my rifles have Unity mounts for the optic. I share one magnifier between them. And after zeroing both rifles at the same time, swapping the magnifier between them, and using the adjusters to minimize shift, I do believe I can swap THAT magnifier between those rifles. All systems perform better than I can.

I think also MY plan for using the magnifier may be different than most. I intend to use the mounted magnifier to look at a further distance, and learn where to focus attention, but i'd probably fold it down and shoot with just the RDS. Again, this is for MY self-envisioned scenario. I really don't care to shoot through the magnifier

[Andy T]

I think this is one place where mounts really matter. A couple of my rifles have Unity mounts for the optic. I share one magnifier between them. And aside from zeroing both rifles at the same time, swapping the magnifier between them, and using the adjusters to minimize shift, I do believe I can swap THAT magnifier between those rifles. All systems perform better than I can.

Good point. My RDS mounts are all over the place. And the magnifier ends up being lower than the optic. However, the issue that spawned the thread was when using M5 in an OEM Aimpoint lower third mount and a magnifier in OEM Aimpoint twist off mount.

[Yute]

Common practice is to zero at distance with the magnifier accept shift at close range.

I do this as well with my T1 and 3x-c magnifier on Larue mounts.

I do sometimes wonder if it's less shift but rather the magnification that is allowing me to be more accurate/consistent with my dot placement.

[Super77]

I have had a similar issue with Elcan SpectreDRs. There can be a shift between 1x and 4x magnification. The solution is to dial in zero at 4x for longer shots and either accept the POI shift at 1x or hold to compensate for it.

[msstate56]

Yes. Chuck has also talked about this on his Patreon page a few times. He's adamant that every magnifier he's used has introduced some shift.

I’m in this camp. I’ve tried multiple magnifiers, multiple mounts, multiple different Aimpoints going back at least 15 years. They all have shift for me. Eotechs don’t have shift because they are holographic sights vs LED red dots. I can confirm the lack of shift with the EXPS and Eotech G45.

That said, after trying to make it work for over a decade, I just don’t bother with the red dot + 3x/5x/6x anymore. I much prefer LPVOs.

[cosermann]

... Is this issue supposed to be specific to the Aimpoint product?

Older thread I know, but thought I'd resurrect it. Thus far in my sheltered life, from an optics perspective, my experience has been limited to red dots and scopes. Recently, SIG had their Juliet3 Micro on sale, so I jumped at the opportunity to try out a magnifier behind a Romeo5 I had laying around.

Long story short, was working with the setup on Saturday at 50 yds, and while the red dot was dialed in, by itself, when used with the magnifier, the point of impact shifted up about an 1". Unfortunately, I ran out of time and ammo to diagnose further whilst at the range. An inch shift at 50 yds is pretty huge imo. So, relative to the question above, it can be an issue with this SIG product also.

Everything seems to be mounted up well, aligned (factory mounts same height above the rail), torqued to spec., etc. Nothing seems too out of whack. So, I'm scratching my head. RDS zeroed, then Juliet3 Micro adjusted to center dot in its FOV (as per the manual, didn't take much). Any ideas on things I might chase down? Seems like per this thread, and another one [1] do I decide to live with it or not?

[1] - https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42114-Magnifiers-for-use-with-an-RDS

[GyroF-16]

Older thread I know, but thought I'd resurrect it. Thus far in my sheltered life, from an optics perspective, my experience has been limited to red dots and scopes. Recently, SIG had their Juliet3 Micro on sale, so I jumped at the opportunity to try out a magnifier behind a Romeo5 I had laying around.

Long story short, was working with the setup on Saturday at 50 yds, and while the red dot was dialed in, by itself, when used with the magnifier, the point of impact shifted up about an 1". Unfortunately, I ran out of time and ammo to diagnose further whilst at the range. An inch shift at 50 yds is pretty huge imo. So, relative to the question above, it can be an issue with this SIG product also.

Everything seems to be mounted up well, aligned (factory mounts same height above the rail), torqued to spec., etc. Nothing seems too out of whack. So, I'm scratching my head. RDS zeroed, then Juliet3 Micro adjusted to center dot in its FOV (as per the manual, didn't take much). Any ideas on things I might chase down? Seems like per this thread, and another one [1] do I decide to live with it or not?

[1] - https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42114-Magnifiers-for-use-with-an-RDS

My (unsolicited) advice would be to zero it at 100 yds with the magnifier. Then see how it works at, say, 50 yds and in with the unmagnified Romeo5. My thinking being that out to 50 yds, a bare RDS is great, but at 100 yds and out, I’d like magnification.

[Unobtanium]

This week I was out refining a zero on an AR. It has Aimpoint Comp M5. I also mounted Aimpoint 3x-c magnifier behind it. With the dot only, I was getting hits on steel at 100 yards. With a magnifier, the dot shifted about half an IPSC width to the right and I was missing the steel.
How common are magnifier zero shifts? I tried adjusting the windage screw on the magnifier but didn't feel like continuing and removed it.

Is this a common occurrence? Should the rifle be zeroed with a magnifier in place instead?

https://youtu.be/w4aioudYG1g?si=bz4honDPF5BiKiEr

https://youtu.be/gD42QZzEQ5I?si=_zu0pogkZrRqHTuZ