The "Violin Reload"

[Guerrero]

Posted recently on Lucky Gunner


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV4SRDHV4zc


I tried it out a little, and I really like it.

[JCN]

Nice, thanks for sharing!

Great to see the self defense applicability of a competition tested movement

[RevolverRob]

My main comment: If the gun is dry, port load it weak hand first, always. Never break an empty shotgun from the shoulder, IMO. From "the violin" it's easy to get the gun back into the hands for shooting, if there is a round chambered. But default function with an empty shotgun should always be weak hand port load with the gun up.

Remember the fastest way to keep a shotgun with an empty tube shooting is to single feed it via the port. A shotgun without a chambered round is useless. So, chamber a round, then break the gun and start feeding shells into the tube.

FWIW: I drop a let fewer shells feeding from the strong hand into the tube. Even with practice my weak hand dexterity isn't as good.

[Guerrero]

Nice, thanks for sharing!

Great to see the self defense applicability of a competition tested movement

Again, "Competition will get you kilt in the streets." ;)


My main comment: If the gun is dry, port load it weak hand first, always. Never break an empty shotgun from the shoulder, IMO. From "the violin" it's easy to get the gun back into the hands for shooting, if there is a round chambered. But default function with an empty shotgun should always be weak hand port load with the gun up.

Remember the fastest way to keep a shotgun with an empty tube shooting is to single feed it via the port. A shotgun without a chambered round is useless. So, chamber a round, then break the gun and start feeding shells into the tube.

FWIW: I drop a let fewer shells feeding from the strong hand into the tube. Even with practice my weak hand dexterity isn't as good.

I think in the video Chris said it was an option to feed an empty chamber with the weak hand, then switch to the violin to load the rest; seems logical.

[vcdgrips]

variation on a theme- Mr In Between TV show shootout -time stamp 1:29 ish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTDGJJnJG5I

[Hambo]

In shotgun competition you're loading...a lot. In a fight with a shotgun, it's unlikely that you'll load more than 1-2 shells. At 5 minutes or so, he goes into why this isn't best for loading a single shell. Keep the buttstock on your shoulder and use whichever hand you prefer to load the chamber or tube.

[RevolverRob]

One thing I like about what Chris talks about here is loading singly with the gun in 'the violin' - When I've used this approach to load twins into a gun that doesn't have an empty tube I have a pretty good chance of trying to ram an extra cartridge into the tube, having it bounce back or get partially in the tube and then kind of jam against the lifter (if bolt is forward). And that is annoying and potentially fight stopping if you have just enough room to almost get the shell in, but not get it past the shell stops, that can jam the damn lifter firmly into place.

Anyways, I like getting the gun on the shoulder if you've fired more than 4-rounds from the gun to get it charged up. But tend to agree with Hambo - I'm likely only firing 1-2 rounds and therefore don't see a reason to break the gun up and put it on the shoulder to stuff 1-2 rounds into the gun.

[BK14]

In shotgun competition you're loading...a lot. In a fight with a shotgun, it's unlikely that you'll load more than 1-2 shells. At 5 minutes or so, he goes into why this isn't best for loading a single shell. Keep the buttstock on your shoulder and use whichever hand you prefer to load the chamber or tube.

Initially I discredited techniques focused on re-upping the gun from a nearly empty state as a gamer thing. Yes, defensive use of the shotgun, in a home defense context, this may not be SUPER relevant.

Where I see the relevance of these techniques is the realization that home defense is not the only context of a shotgun. As you know, on the professional side of the house, shotguns see varied use.

Shotguns ran for breaching, as Blowers points out can take +/-6 rounds to get through exterior doors, then multiple interior doors (I’m not a breacher, referencing his numbers). Then there’s less-lethal beanbag options. I’ve seen guys eatup 5 beanbag rounds and still have fight left in them, leaving officers with an empty gun. Not to mention other uses of beanbag rounds in LE use. Getting that gun back up to a decent capacity to be able to keep utilizing its less-lethal payload may be critical.

Lastly, training. If you’re training, or taking a shotgun class, you’re going to be shooting a lot more than 2 rounds. If this technique lets you reduce fatigue, be more efficient in loading up your gun, and doesn’t hurt your skills on standard loading with support hand, it could increase your quality of learning during classes/training.

[03RN]

I haven't watched the video yet but if I'm breaking my grip I'd rather tuck the gun under my armpit upsidedown.

Let gravity help.
Your arm will help keep the shell off the ground if you fumble it.
Easier to control in case of a gun grab
Easier to shoot from in case you get something up close and personal.

I'll watch the video later to see if they express a benefit to on top of the shoulder that would make it worth it to me.

[GearFondler]

I haven't watched the video yet but if I'm breaking my grip I'd rather tuck the gun under my armpit upsidedown.

Let gravity help.
Your arm will help keep the shell off the ground if you fumble it.
Easier to control in case of a gun grab
Easier to shoot from in case you get something up close and personal.

I'll watch the video later to see if they express a benefit to on top of the shoulder that would make it worth it to me.It's covered in the video but the violin load is basically just loading while short-stocking... Firing from this position is easy-peasy.

[Caballoflaco]

If you’re on this forum and serious about shotguns you should be able to reload weak hand or strong hand, shouldered, unshouldered, prone, one handed etc. etc. Figure out how to shove shells in the gun as many ways as possible and then do like Bruce Lee said and flow like water.

That’s probably not be the best approach for teaching someone who is going to keep the shotgun in the closet and only practice once or twice a year. But it’s how I enjoying practicing with all of my long guns.

Yes I like the violin load, but it’s not the only way I load a shotgun. For example when bird hunting I keep the muzzle up and mag port to the left and load weak handed because low ready/violin may not be a safe direction with dogs running around.

[LHS]

Yes I like the violin load, but it’s not the only way I load a shotgun. For example when bird hunting I keep the muzzle up and mag port to the left and load weak handed because low ready/violin may not be a safe direction with dogs running around.

Context is King.

[RevolverRob]

Yes I like the violin load, but it’s not the only way I load a shotgun. For example when bird hunting I keep the muzzle up and mag port to the left and load weak handed because low ready/violin may not be a safe direction with dogs running around.

Box fed for the win (my hunting gun is my uncle's old Mossberg 185 bolt action 20-gauge).

[Erick Gelhaus]

So, I'm one of the three or four guys who taught, and demo'd violin loading during the ThunderStick Summit.

As a technique, it is quite useful. However, it would not be the only teaching method I would rely on.

[JSGlock34]

I've never heard it called the "Violin" before, but I prefer this technique. I find I'm less likely to bobble a reload using my strong hand. Agree with comments about port loading. Good to have options.

[Brian T]

TOOL meet TOOLBOX

Nobody at Thunderstick said it was the only way, it was merely presented a way.

[willie]

Body position and one's cover could determine whether or not shooter removes gun from shoulder. Not running the gun dry is another consideration about feeding the weapon.

[EzGoingKev]

At what point does the barrel become too hot to utilize the violin reload?

[RevolverRob]

At what point does the barrel become too hot to utilize the violin reload?

Never?

Your hand is on the forend.

Edit: I hadn't watched Chris's poor technique there and didn't catch his support hand was rolling over onto the barrel.

No no children, that's not how we do this - watch Lena Miculek started at around the 3:00 mark here. And pay careful attention to what she says about the support hand:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=wp5qtDr7ZSU

[Paul Blackburn]

Interesting support hand grip...

95729

[Caballoflaco]

Interesting support hand grip...

95729

That’s a pretty common grip styl for a shotgun in all the wingshooting shotgun sports.

[Paul Blackburn]

That’s a pretty common grip styl for a shotgun in all the wingshooting shotgun sports.

Darryl Bolke uses that grip also.

[Jim Watson]

I once saw an interesting shotgun reload at an early 3 gun match.
You throw the gun upside down over your off shoulder and poke shells in through the gate.
Of course that points the barrel right up the nose of the RO, with which I disagreed, considering the RO was me.

It got worse after that, the DQ did not stick, the offender was blasting away on the next stage as his buddies passed him on.
I did not darken the gate of that club again.

[willie]

Interesting support hand grip...

95729

In 1981 I was taught to use this type grip when shooting 870 riot guns with buckshot. The reason was preventing a certain malfunction that can occur with 870's. People confuse this malfunction with short stroking. The malfunction occurs this way. Recoil forces the shooter's "grip hand" to move rearward upon firing. This movement activates one of the shell latches. At the same time, recoil moves the shell column in the tube forward. One of the latches catches the shell next in line to be fed. As the fore end continues rearward, the fired shell ejects. The shell in the tube does not feed because the shell latch continues to hold it. Visualize the cruiser ready position for the 870. Same action movement(unintended)has caused this malfunction.

Some folks shoot 870's for a lifetime and never experience this. The index finger forward slows prevents this malfunction because it creates a very slight hesitation--one so small that the shooter doesn't notice it. My opinion is that short shucking or short stroking with the 870 is not as common as some might think. The shooter can slam the pump handle with extreme force both directions and still have the above malfunction. Also, I think that few 870 shooters really know why they are taught this method. Further, I suspect that many teaching the pump gun don't know the origin of this grip.

[Paul Blackburn]

In 1981 I was taught to use this type grip when shooting 870 riot guns with buckshot. The reason was preventing a certain malfunction that can occur with 870's. People confuse this malfunction with short stroking. The malfunction occurs this way. Recoil forces the shooter's "grip hand" to move rearward upon firing. This movement activates one of the shell latches. At the same time, recoil moves the shell column in the tube forward. One of the latches catches the shell next in line to be fed. As the fore end continues rearward, the fired shell ejects. The shell in the tube does not feed because the shell latch continues to hold it. Visualize the cruiser ready position for the 870. Same action movement(unintended)has caused this malfunction.

Some folks shoot 870's for a lifetime and never experience this. The index finger forward slows prevents this malfunction because it creates a very slight hesitation--one so small that the shooter doesn't notice it. My opinion is that short shucking or short stroking with the 870 is not as common as some might think. The shooter can slam the pump handle with extreme force both directions and still have the above malfunction. Also, I think that few 870 shooters really know why they are taught this method. Further, I suspect that many teaching the pump gun don't know the origin of this grip.

Talk about the devil's in the details...

Thank you for providing an explanation and context!

[167]

Interesting support hand grip...

95729

This also works well for protecting the index finger from the backend of the light housing on a SF forend.

[LHS]

Never?

Your hand is on the forend.

Edit: I hadn't watched Chris's poor technique there and didn't catch his support hand was rolling over onto the barrel.

No no children, that's not how we do this - watch Lena Miculek started at around the 3:00 mark here. And pay careful attention to what she says about the support hand:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=wp5qtDr7ZSU

If you're burning through magazines full of ammo in training or competition, yeah. But if you're shooting from that CQB/short-stocked position, then your support hand thumb will likely be over the barrel like Chris is doing. It's why we harp on having a shooting glove for the second day of our skills class when we do a lot of short-stocked shooting. I'd be surprised if it got that hot in an actual fight, given how few rounds are generally expended with shotguns in CONUS engagements.

[LHS]

In 1981 I was taught to use this type grip when shooting 870 riot guns with buckshot. The reason was preventing a certain malfunction that can occur with 870's. People confuse this malfunction with short stroking. The malfunction occurs this way. Recoil forces the shooter's "grip hand" to move rearward upon firing. This movement activates one of the shell latches. At the same time, recoil moves the shell column in the tube forward. One of the latches catches the shell next in line to be fed. As the fore end continues rearward, the fired shell ejects. The shell in the tube does not feed because the shell latch continues to hold it. Visualize the cruiser ready position for the 870. Same action movement(unintended)has caused this malfunction.

Some folks shoot 870's for a lifetime and never experience this. The index finger forward slows prevents this malfunction because it creates a very slight hesitation--one so small that the shooter doesn't notice it. My opinion is that short shucking or short stroking with the 870 is not as common as some might think. The shooter can slam the pump handle with extreme force both directions and still have the above malfunction. Also, I think that few 870 shooters really know why they are taught this method. Further, I suspect that many teaching the pump gun don't know the origin of this grip.

I've seen that happen with worn-out magazine springs a lot. Push-pull can help ameliorate it, but if the spring gets weak enough, it'll still happen.

I use that same grip and have for many years, though I never heard it taught as a solution to the feed issue you describe (which I genuinely find fascinating, I love hearing old mostly-forgotten bits of gauge wisdom!). I use that grip for three reasons: as mentioned upthread, it helps keep you from banging your finger on the light housing of an SF forend. 2, it unkinks my wrist. Since I'm soaking up a good portion of the recoil impulse through that support hand, unkinking the wrist reduces fatigue on that support side arm. And 3, I find it helpful when mounting the gun to point my support-hand finger at what I want to shoot.

[willie]

I experimented with mag springs so strong that the shell would jump the latch. Stronger springs in my tests made no difference.

[WobblyPossum]

A lot of people use a similar grip for rifles too. The thinking is that the support hand index finger, which is aligned with the barrel with a rifle and pretty close to aligned with a shotgun, is pointing towards your target which helps you get on target quicker. I haven’t seen anyone do it with shotguns before but I don’t have a ton of time or training on shotguns. I’ve only taken a single shotgun class outside of LE academy training.

[titsonritz]

As a lefty, I don't have much use for it.

[Erick Gelhaus]

As a lefty, I don't have much use for it.

This is the neat thing about some of this stuff ... what doesn't work for some, works well for others. We're both free to use what works best for us.

[titsonritz]

This is the neat thing about some of this stuff ... what doesn't work for some, works well for others. We're both free to use what works best for us.

Absolutely.