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View Full Version : Myths and misconceptions about the evolution of "retention" holsters



TCinVA
10-11-2022, 08:32 AM
If you've spent any time seriously pursuing self defense you have doubtless encountered a number of pieces of "common knowledge" or "conventional wisdom" that are really just myths and misconceptions ossified into a pernicious default setting that has to be overcome to begin an intelligent discussion.

One that I have encountered quite a bit over the years is misconceptions about the evolution of retention holsters for duty use by peace officers.

According to the myth, so called "retention" holsters evolved because of an epidemic of peace officers being killed with their own weapon. The conception is that officers were routinely being overpowered by suspects who wrested their sidearms from the holster and used to murder them. While instances of that did certainly occur, that phenomenon wasn't as common as the myth would have us believe.

Often officers who lost control of their weapons had the weapon in their hands when they lost control of it. There are plenty of modern instances of ill-timed presentation of the sidearm from the holster resulting in a fight over the gun. This incident captured on a public bus illustrates the problem:


https://youtu.be/xkci3wFr-Gk

(You may have to follow the link to youtube to view the video)

The female officer's poor habits and tactics presented her pistol to a deranged but unarmed man. After narrowly missing the bus driver with a negligently discharged round during the scuffle, she lost control of her sidearm and probably would have been killed had it not been for another officer recognizing what was happening and terminating the threat. The officer's carry gear is completely irrelevant to the sequence of events in that incident. Bad decisions about when to present the weapon and bad tactics used when closing distance on a violent threat would have produced that officer fatality and would explain a sizeable percentage of situations where officers were killed with their own sidearms.

If the officer in that video had ever been trained on retention tactics with a drawn pistol, it doesn't show. Officers may be exposed to some retention training in an academy setting but often there is no refresher training beyond that exposure in the academy...and without proper repetition and followup training exposure is all it is.

Bad tactics and bad/insufficient training existed a generation or two ago as well, but officers in those days also had to contend with some supremely bad gear.

Scott Reitz has a youtube channel where he shares some incredibly useful historical insight into the history and practices of one of the largest and most famously professional police forces in the United States, the LAPD:


https://youtu.be/j-TUlpV3-i8

Take careful note of his discussion of the tendency of popular holsters of his early days to jettison the sidearm within them when there was a fight or other vigorous activity going on. Gimmick holsters with good-idea-fairy mechanical mechanisms to let go of the gun were legion in police use. What LAPD did, many other departments and individual officers across the country copied. On the other coast, the Audley Safety Holster was extremely popular with some large police departments, notably the NYPD. In fact, you could actually see officers carrying revolvers in old Audley holsters in NY until remarkably recently.

The Audley Safety Holster used a piece of spring steel that protruded into the trigger guard of the handgun to retain it in the holster. To draw the handgun, one would grip the weapon and press in with their trigger finger, moving the spring in and allowing the gun to come clear:

95482 95483

...seem familiar? The "press a button with your trigger finger to release the handgun" concept wasn't invented with the Serpa. Or even the clamshell holster Reitz demonstrated in his video. It's an idea that keeps turning up like a bad penny throughout the 20th century.

Hopefully it's obvious that a piece of spring steel that you can defeat using what little force you can generate by inward pressure with your trigger finger is woefully insufficient to actually retain the handgun in the holster during vigorous physical activity...like the vigorous physical activity taking place during a fight:

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/16/nyregion/officer-is-killed-with-his-own-gun.html

Naturally the news account of how the Audley Safety Holster works is hilariously inaccurate, but the description is sufficient to identify that it was most likely the holster involved in the incident. It was extremely common for guns to squirt out of those holsters during a fight and then the weapon was jump ball. Unsurprisingly, NYPD had a very high percentage of officers killed with their own weapons.

Unfortunately stupid gimmick holsters are still fairly common today, as the prevalence of the Serpa in police, military, and citizen use demonstrates. The Serpa's stupid gimmick gained traction in part because of overcompensation for the phenomenon of officers being killed with their own weapons. In the later 80's through the 90's it was common for officers to have retention holsters that required removing a snap or thumb break of some sort and then twisting and pulling the gun in a specific manner to actually get the gun out of the holster. This supposedly kept them from being snatched by a thug...but probably more often than that it stopped the officer themselves from drawing the pistol as doing so efficiently required a fair bit of practice that the typical officer wasn't doing.

So when a holster that was cheap and just required the "simple" act of pressing a button came along, people thought it was fantastic. Positive retention AND officers can draw from it! The fact that it was poorly made, easily locked up by tiny pebbles or bits of grit, and encouraged a completely stupid action that is immediately adjacent to violation of a major firearms safety rule was all missed because it isn't a problem until it's a problem, and then it's too late:


https://youtu.be/2BfsoIJbFis

...sort of like how the Audley Safety Holster's failures to retain a sidearm aren't a problem until it's your gun that's now on the ground with a nutcase trying to grab it and shoot you with it. Or the clamshell holster is awesome until your duty revolver gets yeeted out and goes for a swim when you are pursuing a dangerous suspect.

Folks like @Tom Givens (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=59) can provide more context and intelligent discussion on this since they lived it.

TGS
10-11-2022, 11:18 AM
According to the myth, so called "retention" holsters evolved because of an epidemic of peace officers being killed with their own weapon. The conception is that officers were routinely being overpowered by suspects who wrested their sidearms from the holster and used to murder them. While instances of that did certainly occur, that phenomenon wasn't as common as the myth would have us believe.

I haven't been exposed to this myth.

I just thought retention holsters evolved because of the instances you do admit occurred, and naturally trying to mitigate that vulnerability.....not because of an "epidemic".

JJN
10-11-2022, 03:01 PM
I can't remember if it was in his book and/or a video interview, but Bill Rogers of Safariland fame talked at length about his development of the security holsters and how he came up with the Level I, II, and III holster security classifications. He talked about challenging the firearms instructor for the department he was pitching to a draw and shoot and the DT guy to get the gun out. He mentioned that previous thinking had been most concerned with a sneak grab from the rear, but he did not share that assumption.

TC215
10-11-2022, 04:15 PM
I haven't been exposed to this myth.

I just thought retention holsters evolved because of the instances you do admit occurred, and naturally trying to mitigate that vulnerability.....not because of an "epidemic".

This. I've not heard of the "myth" over the last 15 years, either.

I was the "victim" of a gun-grab attempt about 8.5 years ago-- one of the more violent encounters that I've had. That particular holster had zero retention, which was a lot of fun.

I have a video of a gun grab attempt at my old department that occurred about a week ago. The officer was nearly brand new, and the Safariland security holster likely saved his life. I don't want to post the video online, but I texted it to you TGS.

ssb
10-11-2022, 05:40 PM
I can think of three instances that have shown up in court of gun grab attempts made on officers in the past two years or so in a particular county. Each of them involved an emotionally disturbed (and/or drug impaired) person at the ER. In each case numbers probably played a bigger role in defeating the gun grab than the holster choice, but the attempts nevertheless serve to reinforce the value of active retention devices in my mind.

Lon
10-11-2022, 06:01 PM
My Safariland SSIII 070 saved my ass when I was a rookie. Loved that holster.

BehindBlueI's
10-11-2022, 06:36 PM
I had a gun grab attempt in one of my last runs as a sergeant, although I'm still not sure if it was an actual disarm attempt or just trying to get a handle on me in a clenched fight as I had taken him down and he was in "flail n panic" mode while I was trying to flip him face down. I had Terry Tate'd him as he ran from other officers then got caught by a fence and decided it was better to go toward me by myself than the group chasing him. He chose unwisely. Those guys were gassed and day shift. Anywho, I felt him jerking on my gun and heard the officers yelling for him to let go of it as they got there. Retention worked as I just flipped hips and ripped it away from him then went back to making his day a little brighter.

Crazy Dane
10-11-2022, 07:27 PM
Its not just LEOs that gun grabs happen to. I was involved in an attempted armed robbery at knife point. This happened in 92. It turned into an attempted gun grab and a fight in the street with a shot fired. I was carrying a 1911 crossdraw in a holster not meant for the task and zero retention. When my attacker seen my gun, he dropped his knife and went for it. Long story short, we ended up on the ground, I retained my gun and a round was fired, no one was hit. I did cut my left thumb by pulling up on the safety with everything I had. Still got the scar and his knife.

Trooper224
10-11-2022, 07:28 PM
Every gungrab I saw during my career involved a gun in the holster, not in the hand. One of my fellow troops was screaming for back up one night. He was about six feet tall and 150 pounds. His opponent was about six two and 250. When I arrived one scene the hulk had both hands on my pards gun and was throwing him around like a rag doll, but the safariland holster held.

HCM
10-11-2022, 08:09 PM
If you've spent any time seriously pursuing self defense you have doubtless encountered a number of pieces of "common knowledge" or "conventional wisdom" that are really just myths and misconceptions ossified into a pernicious default setting that has to be overcome to begin an intelligent discussion.

One that I have encountered quite a bit over the years is misconceptions about the evolution of retention holsters for duty use by peace officers.

According to the myth, so called "retention" holsters evolved because of an epidemic of peace officers being killed with their own weapon. The conception is that officers were routinely being overpowered by suspects who wrested their sidearms from the holster and used to murder them. While instances of that did certainly occur, that phenomenon wasn't as common as the myth would have us believe.

Often officers who lost control of their weapons had the weapon in their hands when they lost control of it. There are plenty of modern instances of ill-timed presentation of the sidearm from the holster resulting in a fight over the gun. This incident captured on a public bus illustrates the problem:


https://youtu.be/xkci3wFr-Gk

(You may have to follow the link to youtube to view the video)

The female officer's poor habits and tactics presented her pistol to a deranged but unarmed man. After narrowly missing the bus driver with a negligently discharged round during the scuffle, she lost control of her sidearm and probably would have been killed had it not been for another officer recognizing what was happening and terminating the threat. The officer's carry gear is completely irrelevant to the sequence of events in that incident. Bad decisions about when to present the weapon and bad tactics used when closing distance on a violent threat would have produced that officer fatality and would explain a sizeable percentage of situations where officers were killed with their own sidearms.

If the officer in that video had ever been trained on retention tactics with a drawn pistol, it doesn't show. Officers may be exposed to some retention training in an academy setting but often there is no refresher training beyond that exposure in the academy...and without proper repetition and followup training exposure is all it is.

Bad tactics and bad/insufficient training existed a generation or two ago as well, but officers in those days also had to contend with some supremely bad gear.

Scott Reitz has a youtube channel where he shares some incredibly useful historical insight into the history and practices of one of the largest and most famously professional police forces in the United States, the LAPD:


https://youtu.be/j-TUlpV3-i8

Take careful note of his discussion of the tendency of popular holsters of his early days to jettison the sidearm within them when there was a fight or other vigorous activity going on. Gimmick holsters with good-idea-fairy mechanical mechanisms to let go of the gun were legion in police use. What LAPD did, many other departments and individual officers across the country copied. On the other coast, the Audley Safety Holster was extremely popular with some large police departments, notably the NYPD. In fact, you could actually see officers carrying revolvers in old Audley holsters in NY until remarkably recently.

The Audley Safety Holster used a piece of spring steel that protruded into the trigger guard of the handgun to retain it in the holster. To draw the handgun, one would grip the weapon and press in with their trigger finger, moving the spring in and allowing the gun to come clear:

95482 95483

...seem familiar? The "press a button with your trigger finger to release the handgun" concept wasn't invented with the Serpa. Or even the clamshell holster Reitz demonstrated in his video. It's an idea that keeps turning up like a bad penny throughout the 20th century.

Hopefully it's obvious that a piece of spring steel that you can defeat using what little force you can generate by inward pressure with your trigger finger is woefully insufficient to actually retain the handgun in the holster during vigorous physical activity...like the vigorous physical activity taking place during a fight:

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/16/nyregion/officer-is-killed-with-his-own-gun.html

Naturally the news account of how the Audley Safety Holster works is hilariously inaccurate, but the description is sufficient to identify that it was most likely the holster involved in the incident. It was extremely common for guns to squirt out of those holsters during a fight and then the weapon was jump ball. Unsurprisingly, NYPD had a very high percentage of officers killed with their own weapons.

Unfortunately stupid gimmick holsters are still fairly common today, as the prevalence of the Serpa in police, military, and citizen use demonstrates. The Serpa's stupid gimmick gained traction in part because of overcompensation for the phenomenon of officers being killed with their own weapons. In the later 80's through the 90's it was common for officers to have retention holsters that required removing a snap or thumb break of some sort and then twisting and pulling the gun in a specific manner to actually get the gun out of the holster. This supposedly kept them from being snatched by a thug...but probably more often than that it stopped the officer themselves from drawing the pistol as doing so efficiently required a fair bit of practice that the typical officer wasn't doing.

So when a holster that was cheap and just required the "simple" act of pressing a button came along, people thought it was fantastic. Positive retention AND officers can draw from it! The fact that it was poorly made, easily locked up by tiny pebbles or bits of grit, and encouraged a completely stupid action that is immediately adjacent to violation of a major firearms safety rule was all missed because it isn't a problem until it's a problem, and then it's too late:


https://youtu.be/2BfsoIJbFis

...sort of like how the Audley Safety Holster's failures to retain a sidearm aren't a problem until it's your gun that's now on the ground with a nutcase trying to grab it and shoot you with it. Or the clamshell holster is awesome until your duty revolver gets yeeted out and goes for a swim when you are pursuing a dangerous suspect.

Folks like @Tom Givens (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=59) can provide more context and intelligent discussion on this since they lived it.

Point of order.

The NYPD didn’t use the Audley Safety Holster, at least not as an organization. The standard NYPD duty holster was the Jay Pee holster.

The Jay Pee holster was adopted nearly 100 years ago. It had a covered trigger guard used a thick lip of leather to catch the edge of the cylinder for retention. It, and it's loose belt were deliberately chosen in an era when even uniformed officers still wore their guns semi concealed, at least in the winter. Draw was done by placing your thumb between the gun and the lip and twisting. It was chosen for retention over speed of draw. The old NYPD guys who schooled me advised you should strive to see trouble coming and if in doubt, have your gun in hand. The Jay Pee holster played a part in that thinking but they also came from an era in which guns as impact weapons was a more mainstream idea.

95521

Compared to it's contemporaries, the suicide strap border patrol holster, the clamshell and the Audley, it was not a bad choice in its day, especially for the crowded conditions of NYC.

As noted many of those contemporaries required you to put your finger in the trigger guard and push a button or disengage a spring steel clip, the "serpa" of their day.

The loose skinny belt didn’t help retention but it came from an era of minimal equipment, and also allowed many to rotate the gun up front to 1' o'clock in an "appendix" position. This was particularly useful sitting in vehicles.

The pen and pencil holder versions of the Jay Pee were sorry, as were the swivel versions. Later versions of the Jay Pee were reinforced with two rivets at the rear and were made with better, thicker leather. Some even had loops for extra rounds sewn in.

95522

NYPD grandfathered revolvers as primary duty guns until 2018, at which time they forced the last 100 or so cops with revolvers as primary duty guns to switch to 9mm autos.

Le Français
10-11-2022, 08:22 PM
Every gungrab I saw during my career involved a gun in the holster, not in the hand. One of my fellow troops was screaming for back up one night. He was about six feet tall and 150 pounds. His opponent was about six two and 250. When I arrived one scene the hulk had both hands on my pards gun and was throwing him around like a rag doll, but the safariland holster held.

I'm imagining you cleaving the guy into two 125-lb slices with a claymore.

GJM
10-11-2022, 09:03 PM
I want a retention holster for my field pistol for different reasons -- to help me not drop my pistol into a lake or river, keep dirt and debris off, and protect against some weather.

95524

Trooper224
10-11-2022, 09:16 PM
I'm imagining you cleaving the guy into two 125-lb slices with a claymore.


I might not have retired if that kind of thing was in policy.

breakingtime91
10-12-2022, 12:18 AM
I want a retention holster for my field pistol for different reasons -- to help me not drop my pistol into a lake or river, keep dirt and debris off, and protect against some weather.

95524
Iink to that holster?

jnc36rcpd
10-13-2022, 02:00 AM
I have to agree with Bill Rogers about the risk of being disarmed from behind. I definitely want a holster that prevents that because I might be caught off guard, but most police disarming attempts occur from the front. I will also note that a feature of many 1980's/90's security holsters is that the draw started with a break-front (as the feature was called). This was true of the Bianchi Hurricane that I wore for several years and was issue to our allied county agency. (Revolver holster, guys. Yes, I am that old.)

While I absolutely favor security holsters for uniform police duties, procedure trumps gear. Back in the day, within months each other, two friends on the county were disarmed by prisoners. Amazingly, neither was murdered by their escapees. One was wearing the issue Hurricane holster. The other used suicide strap holster because he considered it faster (as he demonstrated to me in a Seven-Eleven parking lot against all gun safety protocols and common sense). The first officer was left in place by the escapee. The second was forced to drive his former-prisoner/now-captor to a neighboring jurisdiction. Both bad guys were apprehended.

Holster choice regardless, both officers were transporting prisoners from the detention center to the hospital by themselves. Each prisoner had an arm in a soft cast and was leg-ironed. The prisoners were seated next to the officers in the front seat of the cruiser. Cage cruisers and transport vans were few and far between back in the day. While the second officer should ha been using the issue holster, this was a failure or policy, protocol, and equipment tha miraculously did not cost either officer their life.

In this same time frame, a former officer from my agency (where we had death-from-behind Clarino holsters went to an agency that issued the Hurricane. During am emergency petition service, he surprisingly realized the subject was attempting to function a pen gun. He was unable to draw from his Hurricane holster and was shot in the face, He fortunately survived. Unfortunately, I believe he sued Bianchi over the holster design.

sickeness
10-13-2022, 04:02 AM
Iink to that holster?

That is the Safariland 6390RDS holster, probably the most commonly used holster by American LE next to its sister the 6360.

TCB
10-22-2022, 06:50 PM
I had a situation very similar to BBI’s years ago. Got into a clenched fight and dude had a solid grip on my pistol and was exerting significant force on it. My Safariland SLS/ALS on a QLS fork held and rather than jabbing my Watson Hidden Key into his neck I was able to take him to the ground and get him into cuffs…eventually, once he was…more compliant. Gun grabs are probably not super common, but mot a myth. Retention for a sidearm in the field has more value to me for …retention especially when involved in dynamic movements, climbing over / under / through stuff of falling down / off the same.

jlw
10-24-2022, 08:23 AM
A retention holster obviously isn't going to alleviate the problem of officers losing a drawn pistol in an entanglement.

The question is whether or not they help in a holster gun grab situation.

Trooper224
10-24-2022, 10:22 AM
A retention holster obviously isn't going to alleviate the problem of officers losing a drawn pistol in an entanglement.

The question is whether or not they help in a holster gun grab situation.

For those of us who've seen or experienced gun grabs, I think the answer is obvious.

My old division used to issue the HK P7M13. The holster was not a retention type. One night, one of the troops got into a fight with a suspect, wherein the suspect grabbed his pistol out of the holster. They wound up on the ground fighting over the gun. During most of the struggle, the suspect had control of the weapon, but couldn't discharge it due to his unfamiliarity with the squeeze cock mechanism. Finally, the Troop got his hand on the gun and squeezed off a round. The suspect wasn't hit, but he thought he had been and began wailing, "You killed me!" That ended the fight.

Retention holsters are necessary. However, the balance is finding one the isn't incredibly onerous for the officers to manipulate, but provides a level of security.