Issues With Norma Range & Training .38 Special FMJ

[JonInWA]

I had a great training session yesterday, using NIB Norma 158 gr FMJ .38 Special Range and Training. Nice accuracy, but I encountered multiple light strikes that did not set off the primers; several didn't fire after 2-3 hits. All shooting was double-action, and there seemed to be a disproportionate amount of light strikes on the first shot (but not exclusively there).

This was with my Security Six, which has been a flawless performer for me; Ruger has gone through it, and it has proper springs. It is properly maintained, and was not dirty prior to the practice session. Anyone else encountered issues with Norma/Norma primers recently?

My local gunsmith is witnessing some significant issues with primers lately; my suspicion is that due to the high demand and production shortfalls, QC for primers in particular has gone way south....

Any thoughts/experiences?

Best, Jon

[Outpost75]

Which Norma .38 FMJ do you have? Is yours loaded in Germany, Hungary, Switzerland or Sweden?

I have used them all in my 1964 old Colt Official Police revolver with no issues.

[WilsonCQB1911]

Yes. My Norma stockpile has the same issue. Doesn't matter what 38 revolver I use it in, I'll get several failures every box. I bought some more recent Norma with gold primers vice the older silver ones. It had fewer issues but still failures.

I like Norma. I've got around 800 rounds left of this problem ammo. I'll continue to buy their stuff but not in 38 anymore.

[JonInWA]

Which Norma .38 FMJ do you have? Is yours loaded in Germany, Hungary, Switzerland or Sweden?

I have used them all in my 1964 old Colt Official Police revolver with no issues.

Their Range/Target 158 gr ball, made in Hungary, recent production BNIB.

The light strike issue I've experienced since the COVID-induced ammunition shortage has occurred with multiple .357/.38 Special cartridges and primers-notably Winchester Silvertip and CCI 550 primers. My suspicion is that demand is so heavy, both from ammunition manufacturers and the reloading community that QC has gone by the wayside significantly. The only cartridges that I've found trustworthy primer ignition-wise since COVID have been Federal.

Essentially, unless I deliberately want to have malfunction drills inherently built into my practice, Norma and Winchester are off my selection list. And all others are "trust but verify."

It is not an insufficient firing pin spring issue-both of my revolvers concerned are using appropriate Ruger springs, with replacements as necessary.

Best, Jon

[WilsonCQB1911]

To be clear, my Norma was all purchased directly from Norma, new, this year. The earlier batch had silver primers. I informed them of the misfires and they did offer to buy back my batch. I declined because it was so hard to get any more 38 at the time. They then gave me a small rebate, which I appreciated. So I can't blame Norma - they tried to take care of the issue

I purchased some more 38 from them a few months ago and noted that the primers were gold colored as opposed to the silver of the older batch. I've only fired one box of this so far but had a few misfires. Fewer than the older stuff but still there.

ETA: The misfires have occurred in the following revolvers. All are unaltered with original springs and no trigger jobs done on the. Original Python 6", new Python 4", new Colt King Cobra 3", old Colt Diamondback snub. I have not had misfires with any other ammo in these guns.

[JonInWA]

Mine all had the gold primers. I will say that the accuracy was quite nice.

Best, Jon

[Noah]

I've shot over 5,000 rounds of Norma 124 grain 9mm since 2020, in Beretta 92s, PX4s, Glocks, and M&Ps. Zero failures even with a 13lb spring in the 92s and 11 in the Px4, but, harder primers wouldn't shock me with it being eastern European.

[WilsonCQB1911]

I've shot over 5,000 rounds of Norma 124 grain 9mm since 2020, in Beretta 92s, PX4s, Glocks, and M&Ps. Zero failures even with a 13lb spring in the 92s and 11 in the Px4, but, harder primers wouldn't shock me with it being eastern European.


I have no trouble with any of their other calibers. They've been my go to since they are generally clean and accurate.

[JonInWA]

In this upcoming Saturday's IDPA match, myself and a buddy will be shooting revolvers; Me, the Security Six; he'll be using his Smith & Wesson M66. I'll be using Federal American Eagle 130 gr FMJ, PMC 132 gr FMJ, and Blazer Brass 125 gr FMJ; he'll be using the Norma Hungarian 158 gr FMJ...I'll report the results on this thread.

Best, Jon

[FrankB]

I’ve been using the Hungarian made Norma in all sorts of revolvers, and haven’t had a single problem. The primers are silver. 🤷🏼

95486

[JonInWA]

I the IDPA match last weekend, my friend competed using his Smith & Wesson M66, I with my Security Six. He used the same Norma 158 gr that was problematic in my Security Six (I had gotten my Norma from him, so it was from the same lot/Hungarian made, with the gold primers. He had absolutely zero issues with it, and I also had zero issues using 50 rounds of PMC Bronze 130 gr, 50 rounds of American Eagle 132 gr, and some 30 rounds of Blazer Brass 125 gr.

Both of our revolvers had OEM springs, and are well maintained and cleaned. The only thing that I can think of as to why I had problems with the Norma and he didn't have to do with primer ignition has to do with firing pins and hammers: the M66's hammer incorporates the firing pin for direct impingement on the primer, whereas the Ruger Security Six uses a floating firing pin in the frame, with the hammer hitting the transfer bar for impact. I'm thinking that there might be a comparative energy loss in the Ruger system, assuming that the Norma primers are thicker than those of the PMC, American Eagle and Blazer cartridges.

Otherwise, I'm flummoxed. The Security Six has been historically 100% reliable, and I've owned it for 10+ years, usually using it with Remington/Remington UMC cartridges, whose primers aren't noted for being the softest.

Any other thoughts/recommendations?

Best, Jon

[JHC]

FWIW I've only fired one box of 50 of this ammo and they all ignited, first strike. Hungary made, brass/gold primers.

OTOH I've seen 1-3 per 50 of Winchester white box and Fed Champion 115 gr 9mm ball fail to fire with repeated hits recently. Same pistol sailed through Winchester M1152 "standard issue" without a failure to fire. Was also thinking bottom shelf ammo might be primer challenged.

[Risto]

I have had 3 light strikes in about 3500 rounds of Norma 124 9mm out of my FN509. 2 I lost and 1 fired on the second try.

[Clusterfrack]

I haven't shot any Norma pistol ammo, but I hate it. The primer hole in Norma stamped 9mm cases is too small for depriming rods to fit through. I have to sort those cases out and throw them away. So irritating.

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[FrankB]

I shot the Norma ammo pictured in an earlier post through my new Colt Python, and 3-4 rounds out of 100 failed to fire. They had solid primer strikes, and wouldn’t fire after 2-3 attempts. These are the brass cases with the lighter silver primers.

[JonInWA]

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion (this thread has been a huge help) that there are likely 2 causal factors: 1) Poor primers/poor primer QC, making things dicey from the get-go, and 2) potential dissipation of energy before the firing pin actually impacts on the primer itself (cases in point being my Ruger revolvers, both of which I've encountered firing pin detonation issues with recently, and both of which have OEM mainsprings, proper maintenance and cleaning/lube protocols). There are some fixes/mods of Ruger hammers (particularly regarding the notch which impacts on the transfer bar and the transfer bars themselves).

My initial choice is to stay in the lane of proven cartridges/primers, such as Federal, PMC and Blazer, but there may be some merit to further discussions with Ruger and/or my gunsmith. And the manufacturers' primer/QC issues may sort themselves out over time; we'll see.

Best, Jon

[DMCutter]

I was shooting my MR918 last week and had about half a dozen failures to ignite with Norma 124 grain 9mm. Same issue today, half a dozen in the first box and 4 in the second. No issues at all in my 365 SAS or HK USPc 9. Also 30 rounds of HST 124 +P with no issues in the MR918 between boxes of Norma. I was starting to question the pistol, but after reading this thread, I guess it's probably the ammo. All the duds fired the second time except one that took either 3 or 4 tries. These are the 4 from the second box.95794

[OlongJohnson]

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion (this thread has been a huge help) that there are likely 2 causal factors: 1) Poor primers/poor primer QC, making things dicey from the get-go, and 2) potential dissipation of energy before the firing pin actually impacts on the primer itself (cases in point being my Ruger revolvers, both of which I've encountered firing pin detonation issues with recently, and both of which have OEM mainsprings, proper maintenance and cleaning/lube protocols). There are some fixes/mods of Ruger hammers (particularly regarding the notch which impacts on the transfer bar and the transfer bars themselves).

My initial choice is to stay in the lane of proven cartridges/primers, such as Federal, PMC and Blazer, but there may be some merit to further discussions with Ruger and/or my gunsmith. And the manufacturers' primer/QC issues may sort themselves out over time; we'll see.

Best, Jon

I assume you're familiar with the writings of Iowegan regarding the hammer step mods.

[Clusterfrack]

Norma and Berger have an excellent reputation for making high quality, high priced bullets. Their recent attempts to broaden their line to include loaded carbine and pistol ammo have tainted their brands. Was it worth it? I don’t have access to their profit numbers, but I’m pretty confident it was a small amount of money traded for an intangible but priceless commodity: reputation.

[DMCutter]

I've shot a fair amount of their SS109 and a little of their .223 and had no issues. I get significantly tighter groups with the SS109 than I do with PMC green tip-I even get close to MOA with my Tavor X95, at least at 100 yards. I hope the issues don't show up with the rifle ammo because I've got a pretty good stock of it. I guess practicing malfunction drills is always good.

[JonInWA]

I assume you're familiar with the writings of Iowegan regarding the hammer step mods.

Yep, he's great. I got his IBOKs for both the Security Six and GP100. Elsewhere he gives a detailed discussion of the hammer step mods, but I'm reluctant to have additional work performed-at least at this point-when I suspect the primary causal factor is inherent to the primers/their manufacture/their QC (or lack thereof...).

I may discuss with Ruger/my gunsmith, but given the attention to detail he lavished on my GP100 when he performed the custom work on in in 1998, I'd be surprised if Chris Peters hadn't performed the step optimization; my gunsmith recently pointed out the beautiful subtle beveling he did on the hammer front edges, something I never noticed.

Best, Jon

[awp_101]

Could the firing pin rebound spring be getting wonky? Or the transfer bar dragging just enough to rob energy?

[paherne]

I've got 1k rounds of this stuff, so next range session, I will have to test it.

[Wonder9]

The Swiss-made Norma 9mm 124gr I bought in 2021 gave me trouble in two Gen5 G26s. I had a hard time believing was caused by Norma, but the poor QC reports keep coming in.

[4given]

I shot a box of 50 Norma Range & Training .38 Special FMJ with the brass primers through my M65-3 3" with no issues. Decapped and reloaded the brass with no issues as well.

[That Guy]

Our tiny little group has been using Norma 9mm these last few months in our training sessions, so I have shot and seen others shoot several hundred rounds of this ammo, about 1 thousand in total. Two PX4's and an Argentinian High Power clone have ran without issues. I've been meaning to do proper accuracy testing on paper but haven't managed to find the time for it, but at longer ranges I've felt like it has been easier to hit the half size steel target we use than previously when we used Sellier & Bellot ammo.

These are of course initial impressions only, but so far I've liked this ammo.


These are the 4 from the second box.

The firing pin impacts appear to be off center in that picture.

[WilsonCQB1911]

As an update, I'm starting to get to my slightly newer stash of Norma .38 with the gold primers. The silver primers were a constant headache. The first box of gold primers I shot a few months back had fewer misfires but I think I still had one. Today I fired two boxes with the gold primers and had zero issues. I was shooting my new Python 4" in DA.

So I've only had 1 misfire in 3 boxes with the gold primers, which are the newer batch. That's much improved over the older batch which would give me 2-3 misfires every box.

It's accurate and fairly clean too.

[Archer1440]

I've shot more Norma in the past 18 months than anything else, just under a thousand rounds of the .38 SPL in my Pythons, and close to 10K of 9mm 124 in my HK's, and have not had one single problem of any sort with it. Very clean and very accurate.

I don't reload 9mm, but if I did, I would figure out a way to deal with the primer hole thing- because the cases themselves are typically extremely clean after firing.

[revolvergeek]

I had been using these .38 spl Norma and Geco loads interchangeably, but some of the last batch of Geco seems to have rather hard primers. Several of my revolvers that have never had an issue starting giving me light strikes on a recent box. I am switching to the Magtech 130 FMJFP for that role now instead. Shot a bunch of that lately with no issues.