Point Karate for self-defense?

[Mister X]

Point karate is essentially just a combative game of tag, but fighters who are good at it do excel at certain things, most notably the ability to effectively measure and control distance as well as develop footwork that is very evasive. We’ve seen some of these attributes translate pretty well over into MMA for certain athletic and highly mobile individuals, but does any of it applicable or translate over to self-defense?

[45dotACP]

I started martial arts basically doing point karate.

It was fun as a kid and helped me learn where my body was and how to move it without taking a lot of head trauma, but once I started doing kickboxing and boxing I was getting lit up on the regular. The ending of an exchange after a scoring hit is made encouraged bad habits for me.

For instance, I would be extended or off balanced just to trying to score a backfist only for it to land on someone's high guard and then eat a counter hook over the top of my extended arm once they timed the backfist. Sure I scored, but my partner would land with better power and timing.

It's probably more to do with my inability to combine the two martial arts to any effective degree, but I wound up feeling more confident with some kickboxing and more basic footwork. Especially now that I have old guy knees.

But more than a few really good MMA fighters use point karate blitzes and footwork and every now and again I realize just how brilliant they are at amplifying the best parts of point Karate and accounting for it's liabilities.

Really I suppose that's the story of most martial arts being applied in the context of a fight or a combat sports contest.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[03RN]

I started with Tang Soo Do when I was 6. I'm glad I did. While technically the sparing was point based there was a lot of contact.

The lead instructor incorporated a lot of judo/jujitsu in which was nice when I started wrestling in highschool.

[Mark D]

In pre-UFC days, I worked nightclub security with a couple guys who were good competitive point fighters. One of 'em was a good buddy I nicknamed "Dalton", after Patrick Swayze's character in Roadhouse


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjd5fUIZhx4

When necessary, my colleagues were able to strike quickly and accurately, and they decisively ended most fights they were involved in.

That said, if they'd spent the same amount of time learning boxing or MT, I suspect they'd have been even more formidable. In the era of MMA, I'm not sure there's much to be gained from point karate.

[No.6]

Point karate is essentially just a combative game of tag, but fighters who are good at it do excel at certain things, most notably the ability to effectively measure and control distance as well as develop footwork that is very evasive. We’ve seen some of these attributes translate pretty well over into MMA for certain athletic and highly mobile individuals, but does any of it applicable or translate over to self-defense?

Footwork is key to everything; without pushing against the planet little if any power is delivered on target.

Timing is the other thing learned in point 'tag' whether with hands or weapons (like fencing).

Of course the potential detriment is engraining some idea that all fights stop as soon as someone is hit once; if that is overcome there's no harm in picking up the benefits of learning to make that first hit.

[45dotACP]

A really cool competition to see is the "Combat karate" that Bas Rutten has been running.

It's got takedowns, opportunities for limited ground and pound, and striking in a ring that doesn't involve a cage like most mixed martial arts contests, which is kinda cool.

I highly recommend checking out a few highlight reels on YouTube

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Joe S]

A great start for kids. For adults, I think better than nothing, or if it will keep you interested, go for it. If you can convince a classmate or two to informally roll around/wrestle occasionally, learn a couple offenses and defenses from YouTube, it's a great start.

[1slow]

The problem with point karate is you internalize pulling your punches and kicks.

My early training I did that. In spite of 300 strikes on the makiwara each day each hand I would still pull punches and kicks in sparring.


This was made very apparent when I started training Ryu-Te , Taika Oyata's system.

We sparred full contact in Bogu gear ( Kendo type barred steel face guard helmet and padded chest protector with reinforcements).

Full contact was made. Match was decided by: one cannot continue, one quits, or 3 full points.

1 point was a knockdown or the recipient was dazed.

Helmet kept face intact but you ate the impact.

It took a while to learn to not pull punches and kicks.

YMMV.

[Chance]

[T]he ability to effectively measure and control distance...

It's my opinion that these two points do not translate well to self-defense. The dynamics of movement and distance control in point karate arise due to the mechanics of the rule set that both participants consent to observe a priori. A karate player's ability to control distance is at least partially facilitated on their ability to anticipate the other person's reactions because that other person is working within the confines of that rule set. Without the rule set, I think a lot of that goes out the window.

[Lester Polfus]

It's my opinion that these two points do not translate well to self-defense. The dynamics of movement and distance control in point karate arise due to the mechanics of the rule set that both participants consent to observe a priori. A karate player's ability to control distance is at least partially facilitated on their ability to anticipate the other person's reactions because that other person is working within the confines of that rule set. Without the rule set, I think a lot of that goes out the window.

I was pretty much about to type exactly that. I was the mook in the padded suit for a bunch of community ed self defense classes. We had a guy who made it known he was a black belt in some kind of point style karate or TKD and was there to “check out your stuff.” He had spent 15 years training at a mutually agreed upon distance, and when I closed to clinch range it fucked his shit up so bad he literally burst into tears and flew into a rage.

That is kind of an extreme example largely driven by some deep self esteem issues, but if you go watch a bunch of YouTube videos of people being assaulted and some videos of point karate matches, yo won’t see much overlap.

The flip side is while some folks live within easy distance of a school that offers some kind of street applicable MMA. Some of us have a choice of Master Kim’s House Of Karate or nothing. I think there is value in any training that involves a fist coming at you.

[03RN]

It's my opinion that these two points do not translate well to self-defense. The dynamics of movement and distance control in point karate arise due to the mechanics of the rule set that both participants consent to observe a priori. A karate player's ability to control distance is at least partially facilitated on their ability to anticipate the other person's reactions because that other person is working within the confines of that rule set. Without the rule set, I think a lot of that goes out the window.

I think this thinking is akin to thinking dryfire is useless because you don't have any recoil or impacts to insure your working on the fundamentals properly.

[Mister X]

I appreciate all the responses. Continued food for thought.

While I’m in no way claiming point karate skills are wholly transferable to most self-defense scenarios, but if an individual had already developed and possessed those skills and wanted to shift into a personal defense focus, my perspective is instead of starting completely from scratch, there are some elements they would want to retain, even if they need to be tweaked a bit for the different context in a similar way we’ve seen play out in MMA.

And there can be substantial differences amongst the different branches of point fighting. I don’t know too many high level guys these days who are going to freak out if you get them in a clinch. They work sweeps and throws from there all the time, even incorporating some groundwork. And most cross-train in BJJ, wrestling and other systems anyway. I also really like the non-committed approach to throws and takedowns in the context self-defense.

The evasive footwork, explosive movements, ability to break contact creating space and even managing closing the gap without being hit/tagged seem like they would offer a fair degree of transferable and applicable skills in many aspects of self-defense, including a weapon based environment when adapted accordingly.

[LittleLebowski]

The evasive footwork, explosive movements, ability to break contact creating space and even managing closing the gap without being hit/tagged seem like they would offer a fair degree of transferable and applicable skills in many aspects of self-defense, including a weapon based environment when adapted accordingly.

See Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson and Lyoto Machida.

[Totem Polar]

A karate player's ability to control distance is at least partially facilitated on their ability to anticipate the other person's reactions because that other person is working within the confines of that rule set. Without the rule set, I think a lot of that goes out the window.

I agree with the above statement. I say this as a guy with a dan ranking who first stepped foot in a Goju dojo as a kid in 1981, and who ran his own dojo and club and taught for the local Po Po back in the day.

Where trad Karate works is teaching some posture and body mechanics—as well as joint locks and some takedown mechanics. The translation from Karate to “combatives” striking (eg. Goju to Kelly McCann’s POI) is a reasonable easy shift, aside from getting hit all the time.

I am not sorry that I did all that Goju, and some of that myelination absolutely helps my current combatives-all-the-time approach. I’ve also on occasion astounded my Jits partners as I go from complete dufus to the guy who gets it best if I stumble upon an angle or lock that I’ve seen before. For real, I’m like the retarded mascot in BJJ until it comes time to hit someone or strip a grip while standing. Then everyone is looking around wondering where ol’ Popye’s can of spinach came from.

That said, and I hate to say this as a dan ranked guy who lived and breathed this stuff when I was young: Boxing and Wrestling combined is a greater sum of parts than point sparring. I mean, typing that seems like it should be obvious, but it’s not… until you get crushed standing by a boxer, or on the mat by a grappler.

JMO, OMMV, train what you like, YOLO, etc. etc.

[Cecil Burch]

The evasive footwork, explosive movements, ability to break contact creating space and even managing closing the gap without being hit/tagged seem like they would offer a fair degree of transferable and applicable skills in many aspects of self-defense, including a weapon based environment when adapted accordingly.


Except it won't transfer over unless they put in a decent amount of time actaully working with continuous impact.

I say this as someone who has taught these skills since 1987 and I am at over 8k individual students at this point, and EVERY SINGLE time I have seen a point fighting oriented guy go into FoF scenarios, their supposed skill evaporates. The cliche "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" is 100% truth. The theoretical skills you may get in point karate change completely when actual impact (and over and over impact with no break in action) is included. It is even more pronounced in a weapons based environment because there are so many variables and things to deal with it, and all of it can change in the blink of an eye, and it is so far removed from any point karate training.

Even more pertinent is that the above skills are not unique to point fighting. If you could only get them, or get them to a strong degree in point karate, then there may be a point to training in that methodology. But they are an integral part of any good combat sport striking system, and the combat sport has the advantage of getting the student ready for actual impact, so why waste any time doing something that is actually a time waster to a large extent?

If someone wants to train point karate because you like it or just plain want to try it out, then awesome, go for it. I am not the tactical gestapo, and have no interest in dictating what people do. But I do reserve the right to point out logical fallacies in any reasoning put forth to do so as it relates to real world fighting.

[Mister X]

See Stephen "Wonderboy" Thompson and Lyoto Machida.

I was having a recent discussion/debate on this topic with an old friend and fellow martial artist and used those two specific gentleman as evidence there was some merit to the karate style movement and footwork and how some elements might translate over into self-defense.

His counterpoint was that just because there are a few exceptional individuals who can make it work for them, doesn’t mean the same is true for most people. There are no doubt extremely athletic people who can make just about anything work. Another consideration he brought up was aging and injuries and their subsequent negative effects on mobility, which is a pretty much a prerequisite of applying that method really effectively.

[45dotACP]

It depends on what you call "point karate" as well I would expect.

You can call something like a Sanda competition a "point competition" except that their points require that your opponent was impacted by your strike, and you can also throw or take them down.

Or something like Combat Jiu Jitsu where you need to score an ippon in the three categories of striking, takedowns and ground control

That may be of better value than Olympic TKD competition.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Mister X]

What I’m primarily thinking about would be WKF(World Karate Federation) type and similar approaches.

More specifically what I’m mainly focused on is the concept of managing engagement from longer ranges and footwork involved, which I think distinguishes it from other combat sports. There’s just a particular way they approach it that’s unique and immediately recognizable.

There’s no doubt, impact changes everything and I absolutely don’t view point-fighting as a stand-alone method having much to offer outside of enjoying the sport itself, but nonetheless we have seen that long range point-karate style footwork and distance management in the UFC with guys like Machida, Thompson and a few others applied very effectively. So, that’s why I’m thinking if you can extract just those specific elements from it, borrowing only those movements found useful in true mixed martial art fashion, or you have already developed them, it just might have certain useful applications(even if relatively limited) for self-defense, providing you possess the necessary physical and athletic attributes.

I think a few WKF guys like Rafael Aghayev have crossed over into Karate Combat, so it might prove useful to contrast their WKF matches with those, but the karate guys in MMA is probably the more useful comparison. Not self-defense, but still a fair amount of crossover IMO.

[Lester Polfus]

I don't have the combatives credentials that many of the people on this forum have, but I really have to kind of challenge the idea of "controlling distance" in any context outside of some kind of combat sport. Every single violent encounter I've witnessed or been a part of in real life has collapsed to the closest range one party desired, which is usually pretty close.

[Cecil Burch]

More specifically what I’m mainly focused on is the concept of managing engagement from longer ranges and footwork involved, which I think distinguishes it from other combat sports. There’s just a particular way they approach it that’s unique and immediately recognizable.



But that is simply not true. Savate for one is ebtirely about engaging from as far away as possible, AND it includes actual contact from day one. The better MMA schools also focus on outside movement and long range shots until it is time to go in and get into an entangelment. I am close with Adam and Rory Singer of formerly the Hardcore Gym and they always built their fighters to ideally potshot from outside until they had a clear entry. The discussions I ahd with Adam on that go back to 1998.

And the fact that there are only TWO succesful MMA fighters that have been named who have a karate based background pretty much indicates it does not apply across the board and is more down to outstanding athletes rather than the system itself. We are 25 years in with modern MMA, and only a tiny fraction of karate fighters have made a successful transition. That is not theory, but history.

[Mister X]

And the fact that there are only TWO succesful MMA fighters that have been named who have a karate based background pretty much indicates it does not apply across the board and is more down to outstanding athletes rather than the system itself. We are 25 years in with modern MMA, and only a tiny fraction of karate fighters have made a successful transition. That is not theory, but history.

I think that’s likely a key important point as a friend of mine recently also pointed out.

I think it’s easy to conflate athletic ability with knowledge or sound tactics and vice-versa. Being the best fighter is not synonymous with being the best instructor. And it seems many people don’t make the distinction, so it’s fairly easy to manipulate opinions.

If I’m being completely honest, I used to rely heavily on my athletic ability to prove that what I did and taught worked and was better than method X. Usually playing the contrarian a fair bit as well. My friends perspective was just because I could make something work, didn’t equate to it being a good method in general or that there wasn’t a better approach. The fact I left feeling a bit humbled, indicates I think he was probably right.

Thanks for the replies.

[Mister X]

I’ve been watching a lot of videos from point tournaments and various karate class footage and am a bit surprised at what I’m seeing. Not at all similar to my experience in the late 80’s.

Most competitions are essentially: manage distance, set up entry to score a point and then stop and try to sell it to the judges. I’m not seeing much actual purposeful disengagement, evasiveness or combinations that I expected I would.

I trained in what the instructor labeled Shotokan for a few years in the late 80’s, but it was primarily at one school and we didn’t compete with a one time exception. He incorporated scenario drills, was a former boxer in the navy, so that was integrated into it and we wrestled. His approach to sparring and the footwork we utilized doesn’t really have all that much in common with what I’m seeing is apparently commonplace today.

There is a guy named Iain Abernethy who has an interesting take on this subject from the articles and videos I’ve come across, and does a pretty good job at making the distinction between what occurs in consensual vs nonconsensual violence, as well as what elements of karate are actually relatively practical for self-defense. He seems to knows his karate history as well.

[LittleLebowski]

BaiHu

[BaiHu]

BaiHu

Ha! I agree with Cecil Burch. Most TMA and point fighting sucks. It's why I never cared for them and, the last one I went to was 27 years ago to help a friend who opened a Dojo in CT. Oddly, although we didn't stay in touch as much as we have liked, we reconnected recently and both changed how we teach tremendously.

PF and the Shivworks collective greatly influenced my transition from what my last teacher was doing to what I do now. I used to say that his school was the best of all the shitty schools, and now I just want to be a quality school doing quality work.

[AlwaysLearning]

Lyoto Machida started training Shotokan under his father, a master teacher, at the age of 3. Then he started sumo at age 8, and BJJ and boxing at 16.

The chances of any random adult new student who shows up to the dojo 3x a week at best being able to use point karate skills like Machida is basically zero, because they won't have all the other childhood training, nor are they likely being trained by a master.

Even Machida had problems after (if I'm remembering it right) one of his opponents brought in a high level point karate guy as a sparring partner (Rafael Aghayev I think?), just to figure out how to beat what had been up to then, Machida's elusive style.

[Mister X]

I don't have the combatives credentials that many of the people on this forum have, but I really have to kind of challenge the idea of "controlling distance" in any context outside of some kind of combat sport. Every single violent encounter I've witnessed or been a part of in real life has collapsed to the closest range one party desired, which is usually pretty close.

That’s definitely a consideration, and one that would apply to any combat sport, MMA as well.

Even if there are some self-defense scenarios(no matter how contrived), where long range karate style footwork is potentially applicable for self-defense, the environment must be considered.

Sparring and matches take place on nice, smooth, clean and open spaces. Self-defense scenarios often do not.

While not an actual defense encounter, I did learn this lesson 30 years ago through some impromptu sparring late one night in a Chicago 7-eleven. My opponent was using what I would best label a hybrid Muay-Thai style. Simply looking at us, it appeared a complete mismatch and I completely underestimated him, but my long range Shotokan footwork and mobility was next to useless in that confined space, as I couldn’t keep him off of me. We then went outside in the parking lot where I had infinite space to maneuver and it was a completely different result. He couldn’t touch me. So, environment plays heavily into the mix as well and you can’t expect to have the space to move like you do in the dojo.

[Mister X]

Ha! I agree with Cecil Burch. Most TMA and point fighting sucks. It's why I never cared for them and, the last one I went to was 27 years ago to help a friend who opened a Dojo in CT. Oddly, although we didn't stay in touch as much as we have liked, we reconnected recently and both changed how we teach tremendously.

PF and the Shivworks collective greatly influenced my transition from what my last teacher was doing to what I do now. I used to say that his school was the best of all the shitty schools, and now I just want to be a quality school doing quality work.

I assume you’re some sort of authority on this subject matter since you were tagged, so maybe you could offer a little more insight.

I’m not an authority in point-fighting, but I did work with some of the best JKA and WUKO(now WKF) for awhile in the early 90’s. IIRC, the sparring methodology was heavily influenced from kendo and fencing, and an old Shotokan adage was something along the lines of treating your hands and feet as knives, so they sparred with the mentality of not getting touched. That seems rather unique, so I don’t see a necessarily good comparison with other other striking arts. And as such, the consideration being entertaining the idea that there just might perhaps be at least some specific element that they’ve developed to a higher degree than anyone else.

I would also venture to say the vast majority of point fighters have very little interest in full contact or MMA, so to conclude there’s absolutely nothing at all to be learned from something because we don’t see it in the UFC seems shortsighted to me. There’s usually multiple factors that determine those things, including the rules, and it’s not like MMA hasn’t been in constant flux since it’s inception in regards to what we see being used effectively.

It’s easy to be dismissive, but I’ve learned time and time again not to do so. I recall a time when a cocky looking group of Brazilians where taking out ads in magazines wanting to prove the efficiency of their style. Most people dismissed them at the time. I did so as well and even after my first encounter with the art, but that has more to do with individuals.

I sort of see BJJ following a path similar to karate. Commercialization and mainstreaming the art into a watered down sport has turned it into something completely different from what it was three decades ago. Many or maybe most schools are teaching methods that aren’t all that relevant to self-defense, but that doesn’t mean certain elements that could be useful aren’t being developed by the confines of the sport. Same with karate or any other system adapted into a sport.

I have nothing to sell, nor am I promoting or defending sport karate or any particular style. I left all that silliness behind long ago. More just along the lines of a thought experiment.

[BaiHu]

I assume you’re some sort of authority on this subject matter since you were tagged, so maybe you could offer a little more insight.

I’m not an authority in point-fighting, but I did work with some of the best JKA and WUKO(now WKF) for awhile in the early 90’s. IIRC, the sparring methodology was heavily influenced from kendo and fencing, and an old Shotokan adage was something along the lines of treating your hands and feet as knives, so they sparred with the mentality of not getting touched. That seems rather unique, so I don’t see a necessarily good comparison with other other striking arts. And as such, the consideration being entertaining the idea that there just might perhaps be at least some specific element that they’ve developed to a higher degree than anyone else.

I would also venture to say the vast majority of point fighters have very little interest in full contact or MMA, so to conclude there’s absolutely nothing at all to be learned from something because we don’t see it in the UFC seems shortsighted to me. There’s usually multiple factors that determine those things, including the rules, and it’s not like MMA hasn’t been in constant flux since it’s inception in regards to what we see being used effectively.

It’s easy to be dismissive, but I’ve learned time and time again not to do so. I recall a time when a cocky looking group of Brazilians where taking out ads in magazines wanting to prove the efficiency of their style. Most people dismissed them at the time. I did so as well and even after my first encounter with the art, but that has more to do with individuals.

I sort of see BJJ following a path similar to karate. Commercialization and mainstreaming the art into a watered down sport has turned it into something completely different from what it was three decades ago. Many or maybe most schools are teaching methods that aren’t all that relevant to self-defense, but that doesn’t mean certain elements that could be useful aren’t being developed by the confines of the sport. Same with karate or any other system adapted into a sport.

I have nothing to sell, nor am I promoting or defending sport karate or any particular style. I left all that silliness behind long ago. More just along the lines of a thought experiment.I can't tell if I was tagged tongue in cheek or to a different extent. We can ask LittleLebowski for his exact thought process. I just figured I'd roll with the fact that he might just want my opinion since I run a TMA school.

You're fencing analogy is right on. I think all sports have to have rules, even if it's just to make it easier for people to watch, understand, and bet on.

This is such a wormhole to go down, because "sport fighting" is as old as man. At what point did we start valuing human life enough that we wanted our troops to be in shape but not have the best killed off in ridiculous matches to satisfy the public or our simple curiosity?

I also agree with your POV on where bjj is going down a similar path to over commercialization. I've heard that from several of my bjj guys. I think the thing that bjj has going for it is realistic tournaments as compared to most TMA tournaments.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Mister X]

This is such a wormhole to go down,


Yep. I’ve been involved in the martial arts going on four decades now, so sometimes playing around with ideas considered novelty or at the fringes adds some much needed spice. I haven’t done a kata since 1992, but I do find the Bunkai material some instructors are putting out very interesting nonetheless. Even if practical self-defense is the primary focus, I think there can be value in taking a walk around less explored territory.

[45dotACP]

I sort of see BJJ following a path similar to karate. Commercialization and mainstreaming the art into a watered down sport has turned it into something completely different from what it was three decades ago. Many or maybe most schools are teaching methods that aren’t all that relevant to self-defense, but that doesn’t mean certain elements that could be useful aren’t being developed by the confines of the sport. Same with karate or any other system adapted into a sport..

I get the point you're trying to make, but as a practitioner of both, the difference between BJJ and karate is more than just "they were effective self defense systems until the money stepped in."

There are quite a few alternatives to Karate if you want to learn a striking art. Boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Lethwei, Savate, JKD, Kung fu, etc...and most of them, if trained with some degree of intensity, resistance and "aliveness" (to paraphrase Matt Thornton) will begin to look very similar.

All airplanes look similar for a reason: that shit flies.


Many striking martial arts seem to want to be their own special thing. The curse of that line of thinking is the curse that killed Karate as a viable foundation for self defense (for me personally) and doomed it to be the ghost of what it once was and the specter of being a "useful add on"

You may see some bouncy outside movement from kickboxers that looks "karate-esque" (and some karetekas did use karate as the basis for Kickboxing like Bill "superfoot" Wallace) but I don't know that Karate has evolved in the way that BJJ has.

I still haven't seen a karate tournament in which karetekas used the techniques of other striking arts like hard leg kicks, or use of the teep instead of a traditional front snap kick.


There are a few alternatives to BJJ, but nearly none that give a focus on being able to win a full intensity contest from your back...even catch wrestling has provisions for a "tech fall" if you can hold someone on their back for a degree of time.

BJJ was somewhat revolutionary and remains evolutionary.

Revolutionary in that it was clearly a highly developed system of winning fights from a disadvantage (i.e. the bottom position) and evolutionary in that a lot of catch wrestling, Judo, and Sambo techniques were incorporated and subsumed into the overall meta of BJJ.

I would go so far as to say there's almost nothing you can learn from another grappling system that you cannot also learn from BJJ.

Leglocks, the double wrist lock, open guard, twisters, cradles, cross body rides, strength training, body lock takedowns and....these are all things that you might not have seen in the BJJ of 30 years ago, but rather you'd see them in wrestling, Sambo, or (some types) of Judo.

But they have been incorporated by the most successful BJJ teams today and you will subsequently see them in both BJJ tournaments and full contact MMA contests.

It is simply a matter of ruleset.

It's my opinion that MMA training seems to be an excellent foundation for self protection solely on the basis that it evolves so frequently to keep up with trends.

The only problem is that's hard on the body. And it takes shitloads of time.

The best MMA competitors today may not even be ranked in BJJ, Judo, wrestling or boxing...but they'd send a high level practitioner of any of those arts to the land of wind and ghosts if it came down to a fight. Granted that may not be an actual self defense scenario with "no rules" (incorrect BTW there are rules to self defense) but being a better and more well rounded fighter is often just better in general because it allows one to leverage their experience in a way that applies to the rules at hand.


How all of this can be made to apply to self defense is hard for me to know...I am certainly no expert, but more efficient and effective defensive techniques can and really must evolve over time. It's why guys like Paul, Craig, Cecil and others do what they do.

The best way to win a fight need not be some woebegone heyday of the past.

I don't think it is.

But I do think karate is still cool. I do like using some of it in stand up sparring.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Mister X]

How all of this can be made to apply to self defense is hard for me to know...I am certainly no expert, but more efficient and effective defensive techniques can and really must evolve over time.

And that’s the real question for me. What’s truly truly relevant for self-defense. And I would add the caveat that it can be done safely. Risking destroying one’s health supposedly preparing for a low probability possibility always seemed counterproductive and misguided to me.

I started martial arts as a kid just wanting to learn some self-defense and as a hobbyist, but eventually got pulled down a bizarro path I never intended to go on. I started training BJJ in the 90’s and have what I believe is a solid foundation and understanding of the fundamentals that are applicable to self-defense, same as my wrestling background. Never an interest in competition and didn’t allow myself to be talked into it, so I did that much right according to my initial goals.

What many martial artists call self-defense seems to be something altogether different. I’m getting up in age now, but remember being a testosterone fueled twenty something who engaged in some very questionable behavior myself supposedly under the banner of self-defense. That foolishness is gone and I would change a lot of that if could do it over. Teaching my wife unarmed SD skills, hard or heavy contact is a complete no-go, nor would I ever try to convince her such a thing was wise or necessary. I like her beautiful face just the way it is. And nor has my son who wants to be a physicist ever taken any head shots. Protecting that beautiful brain is a top priority.

BJJ no doubt has a lot to offer(although I probably lean towards wrestling offering more for SD), and it is probably relatively safer, although that depends on several individual factors, but it’s not without its own risks. I know plenty of folks who have suffered pretty debilitating injuries just rolling. It boils down to why your training and your true goals.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

[45dotACP]

I tend to believe in judo or wrestling as the better base for a system of self defense as well tbh...it's just hard to find an adult judo or wrestling program and damn do my knees and shoulders feel it after a few days a week.

The best place to develop wrestling/judo skills for adults is, ironically, a BJJ school most likely.

What BJJ has done as a strategy is actually rather brilliant in that it has tied itself to some of the best aspects of many grappling sports. In return, some parts of those sports have grown into the "sport BJJ" culture in ways that are nearly comical.

Case in point: Eddie Bravo's "Truck" position is basically just a wrestling cross body ride and the Twister is actually a pin called a guillotine in wrestling.

Now people use the truck to set up all sorts of back takes, submissions and even will look to get "twister hooks" (basically the cross body ride's leg control) from a berimbolo to complete the back control.

The sportiest sport BJJ move there is in the berimbolo being used to get into a wrestling specific hold is the type of cross pollination I wish I saw karate doing with arts like boxing or Muay Thai.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Mister X]

the type of cross pollination I wish I saw karate doing with arts like boxing or Muay Thai.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

Many karate schools do exactly that. My first “Shotokan” school in the late 80’s was very eclectic and the instructor actually encouraged his students to visit others schools and explore different methodologies. He had no problems if you incorporated boxing or other striking arts into our sparring, judo and wrestling as well. A lot of local high school wrestlers were enrolled, so we were pretty good at stuffing takedowns as well as scrambling back to our feet. I loved that school.

He lost his job and had to move away. I kept the school going, but then got an offer from the President of USA karate, which I accepted. It was pretty much straight sport Shotokan and I was supposed to eat, sleep and breath it since he had high hopes for me competitively. I was absolutely miserable and left after 6 months. Most of the larger competition oriented karate schools are the same, but it’s understandable why. It’s what the mainstream wants and unlikely to change anytime soon. They want colored belts, certificates, trophies and medals as a measure of their progress and to show to their friends. Self-defense training simply isn’t as rewarding to most, but I’ve always loved it.

[Deaf Smith]

Point karate is essentially just a combative game of tag, but fighters who are good at it do excel at certain things, most notably the ability to effectively measure and control distance as well as develop footwork that is very evasive. We’ve seen some of these attributes translate pretty well over into MMA for certain athletic and highly mobile individuals, but does any of it applicable or translate over to self-defense?

It has it's place. Just like light contact sparing.

But by itself it is not good at all... with no contact under a tense situation you may very well not connect with your technique but they do connect with theirs.

[Mister X]

I came across an old Q&A with Dominick Cruz discussing footwork. A pretty good read overall focused on MMA, so relevance to self-defense is debatable.

He discusses Lyoto Machida, who has been mentioned a few times on this thread. Here’s an excerpt..

“With Machida, it looks like he's blitzing, but actually he's doing that next step of footwork that I was explaining to you earlier. He's steering people into his punches. I've watched tons and tons of Machida tape covering him as an analyst on FOX. I've actually stolen tons of angles from him because his angles from karate are complete opposite of any angle you see in boxing, kickboxing or anything else.

Stuff that would be off limits is not off limits in karate. He hits weird angles that nobody's seen before and he's able to do that because he's able to switch his stance. Machida literally circles towards the power side of fighters to switch to a southpaw stance in the middle of the movement and blitz forward with a straight left hand and a straight right hand. That's completely non-fundamental.”

Source…

https://www.mmafighting.com/platform/amp/2014/4/14/5608650/technique-talk-dominick-cruz-and-the-delicate-dance-of-footwork