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nwhpfan
09-23-2012, 07:56 PM
I heard a very interesting statement from Ron McCarthy; famous LAPD SWAT figure, consultant, author, etc. that a .223 "has never" exited a persons head. Essentially saying if your shot in the face with a .223, the bullet doesn't exit...period. There was an insinuation that concerns of a safe backstop are nullified by the fact the bullet won't exit anyway. I have to ask..can anyone speak to actual data, or of a specific incident that makes Ron McCarthy wrong? I simply don't know myself. Thanks

secondstoryguy
09-23-2012, 08:00 PM
Maybe he's talking about some kind of frangible ammo? I can say with 100% certainty that .223 will zip right through someone's noggin with pretty much any standard ammo.

Chuck Haggard
09-23-2012, 09:39 PM
Most standard .223/5.56 ammo would likely not go through a grown man's head. I have seen rounds such as 55gr SPs and M193 ball pretty much blow in a person's head without exiting.

Something like the 70gr TSX? Yeah, I'm pretty sure you'll find that bullet in the next county.

DanH
09-23-2012, 10:04 PM
I'm going to say that is incorrect. No disrespect intended to Mr. McCarthy, but I think he is wrong. While a .22lr will often not exit a head, a .223 is significantly higher velocity and different construction despite being similar bullet weight.

John Ralston
09-23-2012, 10:24 PM
I shot some 1/4" steel plate with some 55grn FMJ's and they pierced through it like butter. I think it would do the same to a noggin. I would say there needs to be a qualification on that statement in regards to the ammo he is referring to.

DocGKR
09-24-2012, 01:06 AM
1. Steel is not a skull.

2. All depends on the projectile type.

3. It is not the first time Mr. McCarthy has misspoke.

Chuck Haggard
09-24-2012, 09:59 AM
I'm going to say that is incorrect. No disrespect intended to Mr. McCarthy, but I think he is wrong. While a .22lr will often not exit a head, a .223 is significantly higher velocity and different construction despite being similar bullet weight.

Did you miss the part where I said that I have seen actual people shot in the head with .223 rounds, and these rounds often did not exit?

Velocity makes the fragmenting type bullets, like the common in .223 ammo 55gr SP, fragment dramatically and penetrate to a rather shallow depth in tissue.

I have seen other high velocity rounds fail to exit in a pserson's head, such as the Remington 125gr .357mag JHP, while slower rounds such as a Winchester 158gr RNL standard velocity often zip right through (in one case flying across the street on exit and penetrating the outer wall of a frame house).

Some of this depends on angle of the hit and what structures are hit.

I once worked a suicide where a .25acp launched from a Baby Browning fully penetrated an elderly man's skull travelling a path from temple to temple, and still had enough velocity to penetrate a kitchen cabinet door after exit.

Striking the forehead or jaw of a younger healthy male would give the bullet a far different level of resistance.

bcauz3y
09-24-2012, 11:36 AM
I can say with 100% certainty that .223 will zip right through someone's noggin with pretty much any standard ammo.

In most cases, yep.

DocGKR
09-24-2012, 12:04 PM
bcauz3y--your comment above is not accurate. Please read tpd223's post directly above yours.

Alaskapopo
09-24-2012, 10:37 PM
Its a different caliber but I know that a large agency in my state had 5 shootings with 110 grain TAP .308 and none of them exited according to our precision rifle instructor. These were head shots. I imagine bullet design has a lot to do with it.
Pat

BLR
09-25-2012, 06:42 AM
The use of an absolute ("never") in a statement, almost always guarantees a misstatement.

As has been noted above, there are a number of variables in play, not the least of which is bullet type/construction.

Will a 40g Ballistic Tip at 3400fps exit? Not likely. Will a 70g Barnes? Most likely.

JV_
09-25-2012, 07:10 AM
The use of an absolute ("never") in a statement, almost always guarantees a misstatement.That was my thought as well.

GJM
09-25-2012, 09:27 PM
And its cousin, "always."

Dagga Boy
09-26-2012, 12:12 AM
What is kind of funny is when I heard the same statement from Ron, the quote was that "I have never seen .223 exit a head". Lets preface this with his extensive and long term experience at LAPD and a long career in "D" Platoon. During Ron's time there several bad guys were hit in the head by their guys with .223/5.56 rounds. LAPD SWAT snipers in that time frame were issued Robar SR60D rifles in both .308 and .223. The .223's were used specifically for making head shots on hostage takers. The reality is in the time periods we are talking about, the .308 loads used by most snipers "always" seemed to exit a head.....with authority. Typical .223 loads for L/E (usually soft or hollow points) tend to simply turn a brain to mush and stay in the head.

I doubt that Ron would say that a ".223 never exits a head". Again, when Ron told me this, it was a personal observation of his own experience and not a generalization. I've known Ron for almost 25 years, and I have spoken with him extensively on a variety of firearms topics. Ron also did extensive work as a court expert for my agency (with great success) defending officers in lethal force cases. He has probably been privy to many incidents outside of LAPD as well, but these would all be L/E involved cases.

Odin Bravo One
09-26-2012, 03:09 AM
The problem with quotes and statements is the ease of which words are twisted, interpreted, and fine details omitted (either accidentally or on purpose) which change the entire meaning of what was/is said. Misspoken, and misinterpreted is pretty common, especially on the internet.

Thanks for providing some insight to the bigger picture Nyeti.

DocGKR
09-26-2012, 01:02 PM
"I have never seen .223 exit a head"

This I would fully believe, especially given the .223 load D-Platoon was using during that time.

Wayne Dobbs
09-26-2012, 03:49 PM
This I would fully believe, especially given the .223 load D-Platoon was using during that time.


And I bet that "all the king's horses and all the king's men" couldn't put those heads back together worth anything...

Al T.
09-26-2012, 08:06 PM
"Stirred, not shaken".....

Odin Bravo One
09-26-2012, 08:11 PM
I've never seen .223/5.56 exit the head either.

But something exited. The back/side of the head didn't depart the rest of the skull all by itself.

Kyle Reese
09-26-2012, 11:08 PM
I've never seen .223/5.56 exit the head either.

But something exited. The back/side of the head didn't depart the rest of the skull all by itself.

Dude- great sig line material right there. :D

BLR
09-27-2012, 06:31 AM
And its cousin, "always."



Hence the adverb, "almost," in my sentence.

Rich
10-04-2012, 12:10 PM
I agree with the Doc

Depends on the bullet. AP,SP ,Bonded SP. Barnes Solid ,TSX etc!

Range might be a factor as well!

Coyotesfan97
10-09-2012, 04:35 PM
I was next to my partner when he shot a hostage taker in the head from five yards using a 5.56 55 grain ballistic tip. He hit him between the bridge of the nose and the end of the left eyebrow. Instaneous CNS and absolutely no exit. X-rays showed about 50-60 fragments in the brain. The hostage escaped unharmed.

JDM
10-09-2012, 05:20 PM
I was next to my partner when he shot a hostage taker in the head from five yards using a 5.56 55 grain ballistic tip. He hit him between the bridge of the nose and the end of the left eyebrow. Instaneous CNS and absolutely no exit. X-rays showed about 50-60 fragments in the brain. The hostage escaped unharmed.

Excellent.

What kind of optic/sights and what range do y'all zero at?

Coyotesfan97
10-09-2012, 07:48 PM
Excellent.

What kind of optic/sights and what range do y'all zero at?

He has an Aimpoint zeroed for 50 yards. We talked about line if sight/line of bore before the shot. He was holding a little over two inches high.

JDM
10-09-2012, 07:58 PM
That's an incredible shot to make.

Thank you for sharing.

Al T.
10-09-2012, 08:24 PM
my partner when he shot a hostage taker in the head from five yards

Please pass on my thanks as a cake eating civilian to your partner. :cool:

Cookie Monster
10-10-2012, 09:37 AM
Please pass on my thanks as a cake eating civilian to your partner. :cool:


+1

Cookie Monster

Coyotesfan97
10-10-2012, 12:04 PM
Thanks fellas! I'll pass it on. He did good.