Shotgun loading techniques

[BK14]

Some co-workers and I have been discussing shotgun loading techniques. Focusing on a “tactical” setting, we’ve been playing with different methods on getting 2-4 shells back into the gun quickly. In our context, it’s generally from a side-saddle, 870 or 590. I know some guys who have a shell caddy on their kit, but I’m not that high speed yet.

Since we all get it drilled into us as rifle dudes to not relinquish the master grip if not needed, that was how most of us always loaded the gun. Support hand comes up, grabs a round from the saddle, load until full. But we’ve been playing with more of a 3-gun technique, of rolling the gun up onto the strong side shoulder, ejection port up, and then using strong hand to load.

The other technique I’ve been practicing is twin loading from the saddle as demonstrated here:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/09/twins-loading-from-a-side-saddle/amp/

The consensus has been that if it’s 1/2 rounds, it may be faster to just load with support hand. If it’s more, then rolling it may be faster.

What’re your guys thoughts on the most effective way to get the shotgun topped back off? What am I not considering?

[Dorsai]

This is for me. I'm not going to try and convince anyone else, just my decision and why. I prefer to roll the shotgun and load with my strong hand. My reason for loading with my strong hand is because I feel I have more control of the gun when holding it with the weak hand near the balance point than I do with a firing grip only. Plus I am more dexterous with my strong hand so the reload will be faster. If I have to shoot in a hurry, there are very few scenarios where I have to shoot immediately with just my strong hand. Otherwise, one hand is moving to the grip or forend and I think it's about even on the time.

I think loading from the side saddle should be reserved for when it's faster than any other location and it has to be done as fast as possible. Otherwise, I view the sidesaddle as the reload of last resort when you have no other ammo. I have a vest that is very easy and fast to throw on. On the strong side (another reason I reload with the strong hand), there are two pouches, each of which holds 14 shells in loops with a velcro secured flap. Without question, reloading from these pouches while secure, is slow. But if I don't have to reload fast enough to use the side saddle, I'll use the pouches. Better than a fanny pack or dump pouch with loose shells that have to be oriented properly.

I prefer shell cards to a dedicated side saddle. If you use the shells in the side saddle, you have reload it one shell at a time. With a card, rip off the empty and slap on a fresh one. Which explains the 3 vertical pouches on the left (weak) side of the vest. Each one holds a 6 rd ESSTAC shell card.

If I can only grab the shotgun and the ammo in and on it, the shell card/side saddle must be the reload source by default. If I can grab the vest, then pouches are the first choice. If I reload from the shell card circumstances will dictate if it is faster to slap on a new card or load from the pouch. But I want to point out something. If I'm in that worst case scenario where my shotgun is empty and I need to reload because there are still bad guys in danger distance, I should be transitioning to the handgun I hope I have available. Short of me against the gang or Walking Dead, the odds of my needing to reload to finish the fight are in my favor. We do it in matches, and we do it in training (for matches). And that terrible, no good situation that shouldn't have happened. But honestly, I don't train for matches because no matter how fast I can reload, I can't do it as fast as the really good guys. So I "train" for the Walking Dead because it's more fun than video games.

[RevolverRob]

What is the goal in question? To charge an empty gun as fast as possible or to top off a partially full gun as fast as possible?

For me, if the gun has any ammo in it - I'll keep it shouldered and load the tube from underneath singly. Best way to not drop rounds on the ground. Is it slower? Yes, it is.

Since my first reaction to an empty shotgun is to port load it - thus making it a gun with ammo in it, I go back to single loaded.

If you're going to load from non-cards/saddles it might be a different situation.

I guess my take away is - twins and quads are nice for gun games. A defensive gun is not getting unmounted or moved below ready until I am sure I am done shooting.

ETA: You can port load and fire the gun faster than you could ever load the tube. With practice I bet you can load and fire four rounds from an empty pump faster than you can load four using Side-Saddle Twins


http://youtu.be/YhyJlU82fPE

[BK14]

This is for me. I'm not going to try and convince anyone else, just my decision and why. I prefer to roll the shotgun and load with my strong hand. My reason for loading with my strong hand is because I feel I have more control of the gun when holding it with the weak hand near the balance point than I do with a firing grip only. Plus I am more dexterous with my strong hand so the reload will be faster. If I have to shoot in a hurry, there are very few scenarios where I have to shoot immediately with just my strong hand. Otherwise, one hand is moving to the grip or forend and I think it's about even on the time.

I think loading from the side saddle should be reserved for when it's faster than any other location and it has to be done as fast as possible. Otherwise, I view the sidesaddle as the reload of last resort when you have no other ammo. I have a vest that is very easy and fast to throw on. On the strong side (another reason I reload with the strong hand), there are two pouches, each of which holds 14 shells in loops with a velcro secured flap. Without question, reloading from these pouches while secure, is slow. But if I don't have to reload fast enough to use the side saddle, I'll use the pouches. Better than a fanny pack or dump pouch with loose shells that have to be oriented properly.

I prefer shell cards to a dedicated side saddle. If you use the shells in the side saddle, you have reload it one shell at a time. With a card, rip off the empty and slap on a fresh one. Which explains the 3 vertical pouches on the left (weak) side of the vest. Each one holds a 6 rd ESSTAC shell card.

If I can only grab the shotgun and the ammo in and on it, the shell card/side saddle must be the reload source by default. If I can grab the vest, then pouches are the first choice. If I reload from the shell card circumstances will dictate if it is faster to slap on a new card or load from the pouch. But I want to point out something. If I'm in that worst case scenario where my shotgun is empty and I need to reload because there are still bad guys in danger distance, I should be transitioning to the handgun I hope I have available. Short of me against the gang or Walking Dead, the odds of my needing to reload to finish the fight are in my favor. We do it in matches, and we do it in training (for matches). And that terrible, no good situation that shouldn't have happened. But honestly, I don't train for matches because no matter how fast I can reload, I can't do it as fast as the really good guys. So I "train" for the Walking Dead because it's more fun than video games.

Outside of rare situations, the shotgun is typically a grab and go use, so the rounds we have on board are all we’ve got. Every once in awhile, I’ll preemptively throw an Esstac card on my vest in my rifle mag pouch to have a few extra rounds. I have a standard sidesaddle, but maybe I should look into getting approved to switch that out to running cards.

What pouches do you run the cards in?

When you’re rolling the gun and reloading off the sidesaddle, what technique do you use?

[BK14]

What is the goal in question? To charge an empty gun as fast as possible or to top off a partially full gun as fast as possible?

For me, if the gun has any ammo in it - I'll keep it shouldered and load the tube from underneath singly. Best way to not drop rounds on the ground. Is it slower? Yes, it is.

Since my first reaction to an empty shotgun is to port load it - thus making it a gun with ammo in it, I go back to single loaded.

If you're going to load from non-cards/saddles it might be a different situation.

I guess my take away is - twins and quads are nice for gun games. A defensive gun is not getting unmounted or moved below ready until I am sure I am done shooting.

ETA: You can port load and fire the gun faster than you could ever load the tube. With practice I bet you can load and fire four rounds from an empty pump faster than you can load four using Side-Saddle Twins


http://youtu.be/YhyJlU82fPE

I’d agree that if the guns dry, either port loading or a transition to different tool would be the ideal options. So, I’m primarily interested in what techniques guys use to top the gun off, and how/when.

We constantly talk about shotguns being thinking man’s guns, and that if you’re not shooting you’re loading. Just trying to flush out if there’s a “better” way to be doing that constant loading.

I’m still recovering from a meniscus surgery, but once I get cleared to shoot again, I’ll throw it on a timer to see which is faster between port loading for 4 shots vs side saddle twins for me. I train port loading regularly as my gun doesn’t have an extension.

[TCinVA]

What’re your guys thoughts on the most effective way to get the shotgun topped back off?

See, that word right there in the middle makes this complicated.

There is no faster way to get a shotgun's magazine loaded than to quad load from a dedicated shell holder set up for that specific purpose...at least at the moment based on what we've seen in competition. There for a while people were using these long stick-like speed loaders but I think those have gone out of fashion. So quad loading from one of those things is the fastest way to get a shotgun's tubular magazine loaded.

...except the only time anyone has anything like that on their body is when they're at a 3 gun competition. Those getups suck at holding shells when you are doing anything remotely realistic like getting in and out of vehicles, moving through a structure as part of a team, etc.

So is it really "effective"?

Yes if you are a 3 gunner or run practical shotgun in Europe. Not so much if you are on a SWAT team.

Twin loading is still pretty fast, and it's a hell of a lot more practical for normal folks, IF your equipment is set up properly. You can use something like the EZ8 shell holder and it will actually fit on a belt or another piece of gear pretty readily, and it holds on to shotgun shells well enough when adjusted properly that you can practically carry it that way out in the world.

I mean, I never do outside a class environment because I only have ready access to a shotgun at home. And I don't know any police officer who carries one because it's a lot of real estate to take up on one's Sam Browne and it would be subject to breakage pretty quickly just getting into and out of vehicles. Outside of a class environment or a rare occasion when I'm hunting with the shotgun it stays at home. (You should see the look on people's face the first time they see you twin load an 870 on a dove hunt)

So I can twin load with one of those readily, but is that "effective" given my use of the gun?

Of course, if you could twin load from a side saddle that would be much more practical, at least, since every defensive use of a shotgun involves grabbing the gun and going to work with it as it sits. Side saddles make having more ammunition practical and that's why they are ubiquitous on shotguns. The Aridus side saddle actually works pretty well at this because it's really the only one that holds the shell firmly enough to make that work at speed. And if you practice the technique Adam demonstrates on video, you can get the magazine tube of a shotgun reloaded very quickly.

Is that "effective"? If one has a gun with the Aridus QDC and they practice the technique to the point of mastery then if they actually run their gun in a real world defensive shooting they'll probably be able to do it. So if one is using a shotgun for defense, I'd say, yeah. That's "effective"...assuming the preconditions have been met.

If you don't have the excellent Aridus QDC and you don't spend time practicing that technique, however....

I don't have an Aridus QDC on my guns primarily because with my hands the hard corner of the QDC lands right on my left index finger when I'm running the gun from my left side. In my house a shot down the hallway from my bedroom door is going to be off the left shoulder so this is kind of important to me. I also like the idea of maximizing cover/concealment inside a structure so being able to run the gun from the opposite shoulder is pretty important to me. That sadly means I have to make a choice between Adam's excellent QDC or the capacity to run weak side. I choose weak side capability and so I use the Vang Comp soft-sided shell cards. They're the only velcro shell cards that don't suck, they're incredibly good at their job, and they're cheap. I have a whole box full of them I take to every class and I usually come back with an empty box. But they suck for twin loading the way Adam does it.

So if you put me and Adam side by side on something like a Rolling Thunder drill, he's going to handily outrun me with his technique if I'm loading exclusively from my side saddle and not my EZ8.

Now, if you asked me what I teach...well that's a different story.

I don't teach 3 gunners, at least not deliberately. If they've shown up to a class they have not identified themselves as such.

I primarily teach normal earth people, normal patrol officers, some members of tactical teams, and the occasional SF/SOF/MEUSOC guy in class. Usually they are primarily interested in the shotgun as a fighting tool. These people are using the gun under very, very different circumstances.

They are shooting fewer rounds but with much higher stakes. They have a very limited supply of ammunition that they will be trying to load under incredibly high levels of stress when they may or may not be in charge of all their faculties, may or may not be bleeding, may or may not be exhausted, may or may not be freezing...you get the idea. If they need more shells in the gun they can't really afford to bobble them.

Yet if you go to typical shotgun training run by institutions, you'll see live shells laying all over the place because people are not taught techniques aimed primarily at ensuring that the shell they pull from their side saddle makes it into the magazine tube successfully. I spend time in class going over techniques in detail and coaching specifically on accomplishing that based on their anatomy and equipment because my theory is that if they need that shell, they need it pretty fuckin' bad. So I teach them how to get a single shell at a time into the magazine tube of a shotgun in a way that will work even if they've only got one hand to operate the gun with.

I refer to loading the magazine tube as a voluntary load. It's something you do because you think it's a good idea to keep the beast fed.

I also teach an emergency load. That is something you do because you got a click instead of a bang and that means there's still a problem to solve. This, too, is taught based on their physiology and their equipment, but generally from a side saddle it's something they can get done in less than 3 seconds by the end of class and something they can get around 2 seconds with followup practice. It can be done in less than 1.5 seconds if they get obsessive about it.

I spend time on the emergency load because in the defensive context I'm usually dealing with people who don't have a sidearm. So if they run the gun dry...which we don't want them to do, but keeping track of round count in fights isn't easy...they really, really need to be able to get it back up and running because it's their only gun. Even if they do have a sidearm, damn near every single person I've ever had in class is able to get another round in the shotgun and get it on target faster and more reliably than they are able to draw a pistol and fire the three accurate shots into the vitals that we think of as a bare minimum for pistol effectiveness.

The techniques for the emergency loads, too, work even if you only have one functional arm.

Are these techniques "effective"?

For a 3 gunner, no.

For someone using the shotgun as a defensive tool, absolutely. They work pretty much the same regardless of what sort of on-the-gun or even off-the-gun ammunition carriage they are using, they effectively get shells where they need to be even if someone's hands are numb and bloody because it's Feburary and it's sleeting and who the fuck thought having a high-round-count shotgun class was a good idea under these conditions and that home stipple job on my shotgun's forend was not a great plan, and they even work when you've only got one hand to support the gun, load the gun, and shoot the gun. (Assuming you have a side saddle)

It hinges on what you mean by "effective".

I look at "effective" as "The most reliable way to ensure that a limited supply of ammunition ends up inside the gun where you can fight with it no matter what is happening" rather than "fastest way I can get at least 4 of the hundred shells I'm carrying on my person into this gun so I can burn through this stage faster than that other dude over there"

I don't have any advice for 3 gunners because I don't 3 gun. Reload drag racing with a shotgun doesn't seem terribly fun to me, but I've been told by prior girlfriends that I'm not a lot of fun in other ways so I can live with the pain of it.

When it comes to defensive use, I have very definite opinions based on what I've seen from the very miniscule percentage of shooters who have enough sense to seek out formal training in the last 20 years.

[Dorsai]

Outside of rare situations, the shotgun is typically a grab and go use, so the rounds we have on board are all we’ve got. Every once in awhile, I’ll preemptively throw an Esstac card on my vest in my rifle mag pouch to have a few extra rounds. I have a standard sidesaddle, but maybe I should look into getting approved to switch that out to running cards.

What pouches do you run the cards in?

When you’re rolling the gun and reloading off the sidesaddle, what technique do you use?

Any pouch that will hold 1 or 2 30rd AR mag or something of similar size. A 6 or 7 shell card is long enough to ft and grab. The pouches on my vest have flaps with velcro closures. So they keep mags or shell cards from falling out. The flap makes it a little slower, but keeps the cards in place if I was to take a tumble. Tucking the flap in the pouch makes it easier and faster to access a new card, but you'll lose one if you trip/fall, etc. Not that I do it routinely, but they also make a handy make-do holster. If you've got a light on your handgun, even better. I can tuck a gun in the #1 pouch (counting from center going outboard) and still have two shell cards available.

In my classes, I was taught to shoot, load, shoot, load. Basically if you shot two rounds, load two, and I'd generally go from a pouch. In practice and training, I'd alternate between using the pouches and grab one or two rounds, or deliberately use the side saddle and deplete it so I have to rip it off and slap a fresh card on. My vest is handy because it is ONE thing I can grab and put on. It is comfortable, will go over any clothing, and holds more than a bandolier, pouch or bag, and everything is secure (not high speed).

[DamonL]

There is a lot of info in this thread.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9445-Shotgun-reloads-Which-and-Why

[RevolverRob]

I still need to figure out a way to securely mount an EZ8 to the side of a shotgun. It would be YUGE compared to a side saddle. But you could load singly with off hand or roll the gun upside down and load doubles out of the side saddle. It could be awesome.

[titsonritz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km-uP9-Vr4g

[RevolverRob]

So, I tried this today. You can grab singles, doubles, or even four at a time with the support hand out of this and load them easily. Or you can flip the gun upside down and grab Twins or Quads and shove them into the gun that way.

Of course this thing is huge and bulky in this format. But maybe scaled down to a 6-round variant. How to mount it is the next question. I shoved a spare shotcard through the loop and slapped it on the side. Standard 6-shot shell card, as you can see there is even room for another shell (select slug perhaps?). Me thinketh this could be really interesting. But I haven't tried shooting it yet and that could be the Achille's heel of that whole thing.

95967

[BK14]

So, I tried this today. You can grab singles, doubles, or even four at a time with the support hand out of this and load them easily. Or you can flip the gun upside down and grab Twins or Quads and shove them into the gun that way.

Of course this thing is huge and bulky in this format. But maybe scaled down to a 6-round variant. How to mount it is the next question. I shoved a spare shotcard through the loop and slapped it on the side. Standard 6-shot shell card, as you can see there is even room for another shell (select slug perhaps?). Me thinketh this could be really interesting. But I haven't tried shooting it yet and that could be the Achille's heel of that whole thing.

95967

Once surgery heals and I get back to work, the EZ8 will be one of my first purchases to start trying out. Looks like the best option for a “duty” twins load. Any issues with yours?

[GearFondler]

So, I tried this today. You can grab singles, doubles, or even four at a time with the support hand out of this and load them easily. Or you can flip the gun upside down and grab Twins or Quads and shove them into the gun that way.

Of course this thing is huge and bulky in this format. But maybe scaled down to a 6-round variant. How to mount it is the next question. I shoved a spare shotcard through the loop and slapped it on the side. Standard 6-shot shell card, as you can see there is even room for another shell (select slug perhaps?). Me thinketh this could be really interesting. But I haven't tried shooting it yet and that could be the Achille's heel of that whole thing.

95967Did JCN steal your password and post as you?

(that was a joke and compliment. Also I may be deep in my cups right now).

[Hambo]

So, I tried this today. You can grab singles, doubles, or even four at a time with the support hand out of this and load them easily. Or you can flip the gun upside down and grab Twins or Quads and shove them into the gun that way.

Of course this thing is huge and bulky in this format. But maybe scaled down to a 6-round variant. How to mount it is the next question. I shoved a spare shotcard through the loop and slapped it on the side. Standard 6-shot shell card, as you can see there is even room for another shell (select slug perhaps?). Me thinketh this could be really interesting. But I haven't tried shooting it yet and that could be the Achille's heel of that whole thing.


Speaking of enhancement...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkA9rz-1YoA

[RevolverRob]

Once surgery heals and I get back to work, the EZ8 will be one of my first purchases to start trying out. Looks like the best option for a “duty” twins load. Any issues with yours?

I just got this one in yesterday. But TCinVa was the one who clued me into them and he seems to like his. It's a pretty smart design overall.


Did JCN steal your password and post as you?

(that was a joke and compliment. Also I may be deep in my cups right now).

What makes you think JCN and I aren't the same person? ;)

[TCinVA]

The EZ8 is the most practical multi-shell loading device I've found so far. It's not obstreperously huge and it makes twin loading easy. I do really like it.

I need to buy a new one because I broke mine during my last Shotgun Skills class when I had to wear it over a coat and in a different location and the beer tumor apparently applied enough pressure to pop the front rib off of it.

Prior to that it's worked splendidly. It would be fairly easy to mount it on a vest or something similar. Just use loctite on the adjustment screws once you get them set.

[TGS]

Once surgery heals and I get back to work, the EZ8 will be one of my first purchases to start trying out. Looks like the best option for a “duty” twins load. Any issues with yours?

Just a thought, but that's probably not going to be durable enough for duty if it breaks just from being pushed on by someone's beer belly.

[TCinVA]

Just a thought, but that's probably not going to be durable enough for duty if it breaks just from being pushed on by someone's beer belly.

First time that thing hangs up on a doorway or getting out of a vehicle it's probably going to snap something. It comes with the Tek-Lock belt mount but with some work you can probably get a lower profile mount that will make it less likely to grab bits of the environment and commit suicide.

[RevolverRob]

Or make it out of something that isn't kydex.

Not sure what this is...but it seems like it might be something along those lines. Perhaps only holding 3-shells in each side instead of 4, milled out of something like Nylon66 and maybe spaced to fit on a shotgun receiver. It might have adjustability to allow you to run different length shells. And conceivably could be easily attached with velcro to just about anything and should fit in AR pouches...

96066

[TCinVA]

Well, now...you have my attention.

[DamonL]

The Safariland 085 is the single column version of that.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/safariland-085-4-shell-carrier-black-085-12-2.html

[RevolverRob]

The Safariland 085 is the single column version of that.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/safariland-085-4-shell-carrier-black-085-12-2.html

The EZ8 and the design I'm working on, both feature adjustability to fit a range of different shells, like those with different lengths due to roll vs. star crimp. The EZ8 uses a pair of kydex 'springs' to apply lateral tension to the shells to help keep them from moving about.

My design will similarly use a spring (or springs I haven't decided yet) to apply lateral tension to the shells, though it will be a tempered steel spring that also serves as a 'cap' to help keep shells from popping up inadvertently out of the carrier as well.

That's all to say they're different designs from the traditional shell carriers like this. By virtue of having quite a bit more retention and adjustability for different types of shells.

[DamonL]

The 085 uses a metal plate with a foam rubber layer behind it to apply pressure to hold the shells in place.

96102

[Erick Gelhaus]

The EZ8 and the design I'm working on, both feature adjustability to fit a range of different shells, like those with different lengths due to roll vs. star crimp. The EZ8 uses a pair of kydex 'springs' to apply lateral tension to the shells to help keep them from moving about.

My design will similarly use a spring (or springs I haven't decided yet) to apply lateral tension to the shells, though it will be a tempered steel spring that also serves as a 'cap' to help keep shells from popping up inadvertently out of the carrier as well.

That's all to say they're different designs from the traditional shell carriers like this. By virtue of having quite a bit more retention and adjustability for different types of shells.

Looking forward to seeing this.

[Oldherkpilot]

I haven't seen any mention of these Ares Tactical carriers.
https://www.arestactical.net/product/shotshell-holder-12ga-2-75-inch/
I have several on a molle chest rig and am satisfied with the setup. I have not given the rig a vigorous field test, though (mostly because I don't do much vigorous anymore)

Is Safariland still producing the 085 carrier? I can't find one in stock anywhere, not even on eBay.

[BK14]

The 085 uses a metal plate with a foam rubber layer behind it to apply pressure to hold the shells in place.

96102

Could someone grab a shell with their index and middle finger, then second shell with their ring and pinky finger to do a twins load, or would that be sloppy?

[RevolverRob]

I haven't seen any mention of these Ares Tactical carriers.
https://www.arestactical.net/product/shotshell-holder-12ga-2-75-inch/
I have several on a molle chest rig and am satisfied with the setup. I have not given the rig a vigorous field test, though (mostly because I don't do much vigorous anymore)

Is Safariland still producing the 085 carrier? I can't find one in stock anywhere, not even on eBay.

The only thing with the Ares that I don't care for is that the backing plate and baseplate are made from the same piece of kydex. I'm afraid if you catch it on something and rip the sides away, you'll dump shells everywhere. As opposed to maybe just ripping it off your belt. Shouldn't be an issue on a chest rig, but on a belt might be a problem.

I don't think the Safarilands are made any more. They don't list them on their website any longer either.

[DamonL]

Could someone grab a shell with their index and middle finger, then second shell with their ring and pinky finger to do a twins load, or would that be sloppy?

With practice it could probably be done.

You can grab 2 and load each singly, too.

[Flyboytim]

Along the lines of reloading a shotgun from an empty gun to first round fired. Has anyone compared the times of loading an empty shotgun to first round fired, using the fastest technique based on a sidesaddle/shell card, and that of reloading an AR style rifle from empty gun to first round fired, also based on a similar “on the gun” spare magazine location. I would imagine that location would have to be two mags attached to each other to compare apples to apples as I can’t think of another method of spare carry on a rifle similar to that of a shotgun, with ammo on the receiver.

I think the times would be interesting. I always hear about how slow the shotgun is to reload. In that discussion, it’s always about fully loading each gun, shotgun or AR. Is that really the goal in a defensive situation? Or, is it more important to have a round in the gun to use against an assailant in a deadly force encounter? Even if it’s just one round.

And if no one has recorded these techniques, would someone with the equipment and motivation care to have a go at it?

[Dorsai]

Along the lines of reloading a shotgun from an empty gun to first round fired. Has anyone compared the times of loading an empty shotgun to first round fired, using the fastest technique based on a sidesaddle/shell card, and that of reloading an AR style rifle from empty gun to first round fired, also based on a similar “on the gun” spare magazine location. I would imagine that location would have to be two mags attached to each other to compare apples to apples as I can’t think of another method of spare carry on a rifle similar to that of a shotgun, with ammo on the receiver.

I think the times would be interesting. I always hear about how slow the shotgun is to reload. In that discussion, it’s always about fully loading each gun, shotgun or AR. Is that really the goal in a defensive situation? Or, is it more important to have a round in the gun to use against an assailant in a deadly force encounter? Even if it’s just one round.

And if no one has recorded these techniques, would someone with the equipment and motivation care to have a go at it?

You make a point, but I think it's a narrow point. I don't think anyone disagrees that a round in the chamber as soon as possible is primary, and you won't continue to load the magazine if there is an immediate threat. The time to put one round in the chamber from a side saddle or match saver can be faster (skill) than reloading a long gun with a detachable magazine. But this is where the narrowness of the point becomes apparent.

Will a single round end the fight? You might miss, he might wear armor or there is a barrier, there is more than one opponent. That's why military rifles progressed from single shots, to tube magazines, to internal magazines (single column or double), to stripper clips, to detachable magazines. A full magazine is more important in a military or police scenario, but it's still valid in self defense I think. That said, there are some videos out there of skilled individuals shooting very rapidly when single loading the chamber from the side saddle multiple times. Emphasis on "skilled".

[Flyboytim]

You make a point, but I think it's a narrow point. I don't think anyone disagrees that a round in the chamber as soon as possible is primary, and you won't continue to load the magazine if there is an immediate threat. The time to put one round in the chamber from a side saddle or match saver can be faster (skill) than reloading a long gun with a detachable magazine. But this is where the narrowness of the point becomes apparent.

Will a single round end the fight? You might miss, he might wear armor or there is a barrier, there is more than one opponent. That's why military rifles progressed from single shots, to tube magazines, to internal magazines (single column or double), to stripper clips, to detachable magazines. A full magazine is more important in a military or police scenario, but it's still valid in self defense I think. That said, there are some videos out there of skilled individuals shooting very rapidly when single loading the chamber from the side saddle multiple times. Emphasis on "skilled".

Your point about the narrowness of my point is spot on, pun intended. 😜
My intention is not to bash the AR as a defensive tool, or to mimimize the advantage of a full magazine in any segment of an armed encounter. I’m merely addressing a common complaint about the shotgun as being slow to reload compared to a detachable mag fed rifle. The assumption is that the term, “reload”, refers to fully reloaded in many of these accusations surrounding the inferiority of tube fed firearms compared with mag fed. Is fully reloaded to maximum capacity the ONLY definition of “reloaded”? We can agree that being fully reloaded is more desirable than partially reloaded. We can also agree that having only one round loaded when facing an assailant puts the defender in a tenuous position. Yet that position has the defender still capable of putting up a defense, correct?

A scenario in which a 30 round mag has been expended, 30 projectiles have been loosed. Where 7 rounds of 8 pellet buckshot have been loosed, 56 projectiles went flying. Plus, the assumption is that a second 30 round magazine is available. The infantryman hopefully has extra mags on his person, but does the home defender? Only the coupled magazine option would enable a mag change in my mind, in that HD situation. And two 30 round mags on the typical AR platform would come with downsides in weight and protuberances.

I guess my narrow point is that to make the shotgun “loaded”, requires less time than making a mag fed rifle “loaded”, using the same narrow definition of loaded, but I haven’t seen a comparison video. I have seen this video though, one of your examples of “skilled”:
https://youtu.be/YhyJlU82fPE
And a bit easier on the male set of eyes:
https://youtu.be/xbCjcEO9z1A

[P.E. Kelley]

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