Century Arms MKE AP5-C....buy it or you will regret it later.

[Greg Bell]

Here is my summary of my first 750 rounds:

Amazing deal. You better buy one of these or you will regret it later. Mine had a few issues in the first 100 rounds and then perfect thereafter. Given the insane mark-up on the HK SP5k you would have to be a die-hard HK collector to justify the difference. Definitely my favorite PCC. It is smoother than my B&T and way smother than a CZ EVO or KUSA KP-9.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4_sbcxWT2I

[GlockenSpiel]

I'm waiting to see if they crack $1000.

[JCN]

Definitely my favorite PCC. It is smoother than my B&T and way smother than a CZ EVO or KUSA KP-9.



Compare it to an MPX and a JP5!

[Greg Bell]

Send em’ on!

[DMCutter]

Send em’ on!
How do you not already have an MPX?

[Greg Bell]

No, I wish I did.

[BillSWPA]

Does the brace come off easily if/when that becomes necessary/

[BWT]

I talk myself into and out of an MP5 clone.

I recently had an unexpected $10,000+ Odyssey into home repairs, but I have been tempted by the SP5/AP5.

I refuse to go into debt for anything wherever possible, but man these guns are nice.

Also, for $3k for an SP5 - you could buy a lot.

I bought an Aimpoint Acro I was on a waiting list for three months instead of one of these for my carry gun. I should’ve bought one when they an SP5 when they were 2k. I figured price would come down. That was a mistake.

[willie]

My local gunshop has sold about a dozen of this Century Arms offering. One came back as defective due to a manufacturing error. Century repeatedly refused to accept it back under warranty even though the owner had expended 1000 rds trying to break it in. The shop enlisted the aid of the distributor who influenced Century to examine the weapon. After they did, Century replaced it. My understanding is that this response is a typical response from Century Arms.

[HeavyDuty]

My local gunshop has sold about a dozen of this Century Arms offering. One came back as defective due to a manufacturing error. Century repeatedly refused to accept it back under warranty even though the owner had expended 1000 rds trying to break it in. The shop enlisted the aid of the distributor who influenced Century to examine the weapon. After they did, Century replaced it. My understanding is that this response is a typical response from Century Arms.

That would be my concern, too. It seems like when their stuff runs, it runs - but getting a dog dealt with is a pain. Then again, I come from the “angry beaver” era of Century FALs.

[JRB]

It's important to differentiate between Century-built guns, Century contracted builds (Hesse Arms, DC industries, etc) and Century Arms imported guns. The AP5 is a factory MKE gun imported from Turkey by Century Arms.

So in this case, if it's a turd, it's a Turkish turd not a Century turd.

[45dotACP]

Hmmm, the knockoff mp5K has such sex appeal to me, but maybe it's just because I watched The Matrix a few too many times...

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[awp_101]

That would be my concern, too. It seems like when their stuff runs, it runs - but getting a dog dealt with is a pain. Then again, I come from the “angry beaver” era of Century FALs.

95007

Posted as a Century veteran with campaign ribbons for

CETME ground bolt
Canted AK FSB
Garand built on CAI receiver

[awp_101]

It's important to differentiate between Century-built guns, Century contracted builds (Hesse Arms, DC industries, etc) and Century Arms imported guns. The AP5 is a factory MKE gun imported from Turkey by Century Arms.

So in this case, if it's a turd, it's a Turkish turd not a Century turd.

True but why pass up a good opportunity to kick them in the jimmy?😁

[HeavyDuty]

Seriously, I would consider a MKE made Century gun, but I’d want to be able to inspect it before doing the 4473. I think it’s likely most of them are just fine, and some are probably spectacular. My issue is more past bad experience with Century’s customer service.

[757_Magnum]

I've heard of Century's crappy customer service, but my experience was great. I bought a full size AP5 package with brace this summer when they were offering the $200 rebate. I didn't notice that the included brace was for a K model until I got home. I called Century's customer service line and got a human being on the first try. She confidently and politely told me to email their tech support about the issue, and to include the model and serial number. Less than 3 business days later, I got a reply apologizing for the mixup, and they asked for my mailing address. The brace was shipped out promptly and fit snugly.

Mine has been flawless so far through 400 rds from 115 to 147 gr, aluminum and brass casing, cheap crap to my own handloads to Speer GDs, with and without a can. I only ran 15 rds of the Speer, though. I've used the included MKE mags, recent rebranded KCI/Zenith mags, as well as an HK mag.

I loved it so much that I jumped on a great deal for a K that was being sold locally. That one also ran flawlessly through about 200 rds, but I noticed how cramped the cocking handle gets between the short handguard and the claw mount with an optic. I sold it and bought a second full size base model. I'll add that I've been seeing multiple reports on Reddit (I know) that K models tend to be more problematic than the full size ones, and it seems that the brace may be the culprit.

[LOKNLOD]

I've always wanted an MP5. It's been a grail gun since i was a little kid. Darn your hide for making me consider one of these potentially affordable ones instead of being able to blow off the concept entirely due to price.

I'd gladly swap out my Scorpion to have an HK clone instead if it runs good. This category is pretty much a toy so I might as well at least have the toy I've always wanted :cool:

[JRB]

True but why pass up a good opportunity to kick them in the jimmy?😁

A fair point, considering the headaches and heartache they've put some folks through.
But for all the weird frankenguns they made, Century Arms also imported a lot of cool & cheap milsurp that I could afford as broke-ass-teenager back in the day, so I have a soft spot for them as a company.


I've always wanted an MP5. It's been a grail gun since i was a little kid. Darn your hide for making me consider one of these potentially affordable ones instead of being able to blow off the concept entirely due to price.

I'd gladly swap out my Scorpion to have an HK clone instead if it runs good. This category is pretty much a toy so I might as well at least have the toy I've always wanted :cool:

Yes, yes, and yes. Do it! :D

[awp_101]

But for all the weird frankenguns they made, Century Arms also imported a lot of cool & cheap milsurp that I could afford as broke-ass-teenager back in the day, so I have a soft spot for them as a company.

I've absolutely got some "good old days" love for them as well. Thanks to Century, my introduction to personally owned battle rifles was an SAR2 and half a case of surplus 5.45. As a married E4 with 2 kids, ANY AR was off the table in 1999-2000 unless it was a gift from someone. Then after I got out I stayed "broke" thanks to their surplus bolt action and revolver imports. Man I wish I had a lot of that stuff back. Including the SAR2...

[JRB]

I've absolutely got some "good old days" love for them as well. Thanks to Century, my introduction to personally owned battle rifles was an SAR2 and half a case of surplus 5.45. As a married E4 with 2 kids, ANY AR was off the table in 1999-2000 unless it was a gift from someone. Then after I got out I stayed "broke" thanks to their surplus bolt action and revolver imports. Man I wish I had a lot of that stuff back. Including the SAR2...

I had an SAR1 back in those days - nothing like 7.62x39 for $89/1000, and being able to go shooting with a buddy all afternoon and still have ammo left over!

[LittleLebowski]

Posted as a Century veteran with campaign ribbons for

CETME ground bolt
Canted AK FSB
Garand built on CAI receiver

Century hasn’t touched these imported MP5 guns, they just import them.

[Greg Bell]

I had an SAR1 back in those days - nothing like 7.62x39 for $89/1000, and being able to go shooting with a buddy all afternoon and still have ammo left over!

Dude. I saw an SAR-1 this weekend for $800 and I damn near bought it. lol. The only thing that turned me off was that the bolt had been high polished, presumably by some master bubba.

[4RNR]

Dude. I saw an SAR-1 this weekend for $800 and I damn near bought it. lol. The only thing that turned me off was that the bolt had been high polished, presumably by some master bubba.WASRs are going for that price. $800 - $1000

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Pondering the little AP-5.

[HeavyDuty]

Not sure if $1240 is good or not, but… https://www.rkguns.com/century-arms-ap5-core-9mm-handgun-8-9-30-1-hg6034a-n.html

[TCinVA]

Not sure if $1240 is good or not, but… https://www.rkguns.com/century-arms-ap5-core-9mm-handgun-8-9-30-1-hg6034a-n.html

When I bought my Zenith some years ago it was $1,400. I'm glad I bought the gun then because they've gotten stupid expensive now.

[LittleLebowski]

I can't tell if any of these Century MKEs come with a 3 lug muzzle adapter, it looks like some of them do?

[HeavyDuty]

I can't tell if any of these Century MKEs come with a 3 lug muzzle adapter, it looks like some of them do?

#3lugmasterrace (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3lugmasterrace) ?

[joshs]

I can't tell if any of these Century MKEs come with a 3 lug muzzle adapter, it looks like some of them do?

I think all the standard AP5s have 3 lug and 1/2x28 threads. They just come with a 3 lug flash hider mounted.

[richiecotite]

F*** LittleLebowski

In for a pair.

Earlier today I fondled one at my LGS; they had an AP5 and an HK SP5. I have no experience with these guns; I couldn’t tell a 2x price difference between them. If they run, I’ll keep the brace on the bigger one and maybe just single point the smaller one for a real deal bag gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BWT]

I think all the standard AP5s have 3 lug and 1/2x28 threads. They just come with a 3 lug flash hider mounted.

The CORE’s don’t, but they’re clearly notated.

https://atlanticfirearms.com/century-ap5-core-HG6034A-N

Not that I care or have looked… or wrung my hands over it.

ETA: To clarify they don’t come with the flash hider. Sorry

[GlockenSpiel]

Any thoughts on the AP5 (normal MP5 size) vs. the AP5-P (the short "K" model)? Thinking if the normal one is used more by the military the factory might have more experience with those. I also saw reports that the HK tooling was brought over in the 70s. The MP5K only came out in the 70s too, so wondering if that is the same tooling or not. Probably no way to know, and if people are happy with their AP5-Ps then it should be fine. I think the full-size looks cooler.

[helothar]

is there a consensus about how these fare against the Pakistani mp5 clones?

[LittleLebowski]

F*** LittleLebowski

In for a pair.

Earlier today I fondled one at my LGS; they had an AP5 and an HK SP5. I have no experience with these guns; I couldn’t tell a 2x price difference between them. If they run, I’ll keep the brace on the bigger one and maybe just single point the smaller one for a real deal bag gun.


Dude, I just left the door open, you went in and followed me down the path :D

[bofe954]

When I bought my Zenith some years ago it was $1,400. I'm glad I bought the gun then because they've gotten stupid expensive now.

https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms/zenith-firearms-zf5-9mm.html

[757_Magnum]

Any thoughts on the AP5 (normal MP5 size) vs. the AP5-P (the short "K" model)? Thinking if the normal one is used more by the military the factory might have more experience with those. I also saw reports that the HK tooling was brought over in the 70s. The MP5K only came out in the 70s too, so wondering if that is the same tooling or not. Probably no way to know, and if people are happy with their AP5-Ps then it should be fine. I think the full-size looks cooler.

I've read of far more issues with the K models since these dropped in price, but now the suspicion is that it's an issue with the included brace rather than the firearm itself. But if you plan on suppressing it, there's a debate on whether or not you have to switch locking pieces on the K. Even if it functions fine with the stock one, there's also debate on if it damages the roller mechanism. The K types are also not the same firearm with just a longer barrel. The charging handle has been moved back slightly, and I didn't like how I tended to hit my knuckle on the optic rail. I went with the full size for reliability, more handguard real estate (especially due to the charging handle), and it's only a few inches longer.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm watching Six Days (https://www.amazon.com/6-Days-Mark-Strong/dp/B0748P6K13?crid=30GAQP1GEVL7K&keywords=six+days&qid=1665076577&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIxLjM0IiwicXNhIjoiMS4zNCIsInFzcCI6IjI uMDUifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=six+days%2Caps%2C58&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll2&tag=ratio07-20&linkId=d771af2c09d399a5c0a4df140d081624&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl) for no reason whatsoever :D

[GlockenSpiel]

I've read of far more issues with the K models since these dropped in price, but now the suspicion is that it's an issue with the included brace rather than the firearm itself. But if you plan on suppressing it, there's a debate on whether or not you have to switch locking pieces on the K. Even if it functions fine with the stock one, there's also debate on if it damages the roller mechanism. The K types are also not the same firearm with just a longer barrel. The charging handle has been moved back slightly, and I didn't like how I tended to hit my knuckle on the optic rail. I went with the full size for reliability, more handguard real estate (especially due to the charging handle), and it's only a few inches longer.

That's interesting, I remember either Teufelshund or 9-Hole Reviews on Youtube saying that using a stock vs. not on the K really changed up the operation of the gun. Obviously it would also have an effect on the full size, but if the full size just has a larger operating window then maybe you just wouldn't see the problem as much.

I'd want a version I could reasonably shoot without a brace or stock if i didn't want to mess with changes in that world. Then again, the classic SAS style is with a full-size with a sling, unless I'm forgetting something.

[richiecotite]

Picked up my AP5 and AP5-P yesterday. Got em home, disassembled (really really simple) lubed up all the metal parts and pieces and took it out this morning. Mags were the 2 30 round MKE mags that came with the guns. I put the included brace on the AP5, but not the P mode due to reported/potential issues with SB brace. When I ordered it, the idea was no brace and a simple sling to keep the footprint as small as possible.

I had 450 rounds of ammo with me; 5 boxes of 124 gr federal, 1 box of win 9mm nato, 1 box of 124 standard pressure HST, and 100 rounds of my 124 gr coated round nose reloads (5.0 gr of WSF, solid middle of the road plinking load)

The Bad:

-HST didn’t really work. It flat out would not feed in the P, and I’d only get through 2-3 rounds with the standard version. I tried the hollow points after 150 rounds of ball through each gun.

-The P’s handguard got really hot near the chamber. Like, after 75 rounds it was almost too hot to hold with my support hand. In its defense, I was straight blasting ammo as fast as I could, so it was seeing basically 60 round strings of fire in about 2-3 minutes.

The Good:

AP5 - No problems at all with the larger version and ball ammo. I fired a total of 221 rounds through the larger one and discounting the 21 rounds of HST, it had no failures or bobbles. I didn’t really test accuracy since I was really just testing reliability, but at 20 yards I could keep all 30 inside the large circle of a FAST target, shooting around .5 second splits. Recoil is soft and smooth without much muzzle movement. The diopter sights were fine, as was the brace and shooting with it, don’t know why the brace gets so much hate online.

AP5 P - Fired a total of 200 rounds and had 1 FTF the second magazine, around round 50, with federal ball ammo. After that, no issues shooting ball ammo. Like I mentioned above, it just would not feed 124 HST. I could keep all 30 @ 10 yards inside the black of a B8 shooting around .5 splits. Gun was a bit jumpier than the bigger version, and it didn’t have a brace either.

The triggers on both were better than I thought (I figured they were gonna be terrible) and totally fine and serviceable IMO. The MKE magazines worked fine too. I think my next move is to order more 30 round MKE mags and a few KCI 20’s to test out as I think 20’s are the perfect size for the P sans brace, in a bag.

Planning on shooting it again tomorrow with some factory 115 gr ammo and some more handloads. Overall, I’m very pleased with these guns. I was planning on shooting both and getting rid of the one I like the least; right now I’m leaning towards keeping both, assuming they keep working. If I could only have pick one, I’d probably go full size, just because it’s easier to shoot and fed HP’s slightly less terrible.


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[LittleLebowski]

Picked up my AP5 and AP5-P yesterday. Got em home, disassembled (really really simple) lubed up all the metal parts and pieces and took it out this morning. Mags were the 2 30 round MKE mags that came with the guns. I put the included brace on the AP5, but not the P mode due to reported/potential issues with SB brace. When I ordered it, the idea was no brace and a simple sling to keep the footprint as small as possible.

I had 450 rounds of ammo with me; 5 boxes of 124 gr federal, 1 box of win 9mm nato, 1 box of 124 standard pressure HST, and 100 rounds of my 124 gr coated round nose reloads (5.0 gr of WSF, solid middle of the road plinking load)

The Bad:

-HST didn’t really work. It flat out would not feed in the P, and I’d only get through 2-3 rounds with the standard version. I tried the hollow points after 150 rounds of ball through each gun.

-The P’s handguard got really hot near the chamber. Like, after 75 rounds it was almost too hot to hold with my support hand. In its defense, I was straight blasting ammo as fast as I could, so it was seeing basically 60 round strings of fire in about 2-3 minutes.

The Good:

AP5 - No problems at all with the larger version and ball ammo. I fired a total of 221 rounds through the larger one and discounting the 21 rounds of HST, it had no failures or bobbles. I didn’t really test accuracy since I was really just testing reliability, but at 20 yards I could keep all 30 inside the large circle of a FAST target, shooting around .5 second splits. Recoil is soft and smooth without much muzzle movement. The diopter sights were fine, as was the brace and shooting with it, don’t know why the brace gets so much hate online.

AP5 P - Fired a total of 200 rounds and had 1 FTF the second magazine, around round 50, with federal ball ammo. After that, no issues shooting ball ammo. Like I mentioned above, it just would not feed 124 HST. I could keep all 30 @ 10 yards inside the black of a B8 shooting around .5 splits. Gun was a bit jumpier than the bigger version, and it didn’t have a brace either.

The triggers on both were better than I thought (I figured they were gonna be terrible) and totally fine and serviceable IMO. The MKE magazines worked fine too. I think my next move is to order more 30 round MKE mags and a few KCI 20’s to test out as I think 20’s are the perfect size for the P sans brace, in a bag.

Planning on shooting it again tomorrow with some factory 115 gr ammo and some more handloads. Overall, I’m very pleased with these guns. I was planning on shooting both and getting rid of the one I like the least; right now I’m leaning towards keeping both, assuming they keep working. If I could only have pick one, I’d probably go full size, just because it’s easier to shoot and fed HP’s slightly less terrible.




This post brought to you by LittleLebowski 😆

[GlockenSpiel]

Great write-up Richie, sounds like promising results so far considering you're still in the "break-in" period. I was doing some research on hollow points in MP5s and it sounds like the original design does not have a feed ramp conducive to reliably feeding them. They *can* have a feed ramp added that doesn't compromise chamber support but it needs to be done by someone who knows what they're doing. I haven't seen any indication that even the HKs have an improved feed ramp design over the original.

I caved and ordered a full size anyway. I'm going to wait a bit to see what happens with the brace stuff going forward, until then I think I'll like the lower recoil of the big boy. I know I don't like the k foregrip without the vertical grip, and I don't have that much need for the concealability. People say the short version will run all 147s subsonic though, which could be intriguing...

[LittleLebowski]

Great write-up Richie, sounds like promising results so far considering you're still in the "break-in" period. I was doing some research on hollow points in MP5s and it sounds like the original design does not have a feed ramp conducive to reliably feeding them. They *can* have a feed ramp added that doesn't compromise chamber support but it needs to be done by someone who knows what they're doing. I haven't seen any indication that even the HKs have an improved feed ramp design over the original.

I caved and ordered a full size anyway. I'm going to wait a bit to see what happens with the brace stuff going forward, until then I think I'll like the lower recoil of the big boy. I know I don't like the k foregrip without the vertical grip, and I don't have that much need for the concealability. People say the short version will run all 147s subsonic though, which could be intriguing...

I've got both the standard and short model, they both came with 3 lug mounts; one of which I had to wire wheel the paint off of in order to get my Omega 9K to fit (sounds awesome, looks awesome, works great) and both run fine with my 147 flatnose subsonic reloads.

Has anyone here upgraded to the Magpul grip module (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/grip-parts/pistol-grips/hk94-93-91-mp5-semi-shelf-hk-clones-sl-grip-module-prod125127.aspx?psize=96&avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=In%2bStock)? Worth it? It's on sale at Brownells right now.

[757_Magnum]

I've read that hollow points run much better through the HK mags. I bought a single HK mag for testing and will be running my carry old carry ammo, Speer 147gr Gold Dots, through them. I've put 30 rounds through it without any issues so far.

As far as the Magpul lower, I put one on my first AP-5 and like it so far. I prefer the grip and safety ergonomics, but the stock safety engaged/disengaged more smoothly. I also got the Midwest Industries handguard and like it so far.

[Corse]

I was under the impression that the magpul grip didn’t work with the MKE guns.

[LittleLebowski]

I was under the impression that the magpul grip didn’t work with the MKE guns.

Cite? It's my understanding it doesn't work with some HK guns.

[757_Magnum]

I was under the impression that the magpul grip didn’t work with the MKE guns.

Excuse me if I butcher the terms since I'm new to the platform. The Magpul lower is supposed to be for a shelf and pin lower, but many assume the MKE is 2 pin since it has the front takedown pin. It actually has the shelf that allows use of the Magpul lower. As far as I know, it doesn't fit on the K models.

[JRB]

I was under the impression that the magpul grip didn’t work with the MKE guns.


Cite? It's my understanding it doesn't work with some HK guns.


Excuse me if I butcher the terms since I'm new to the platform. The Magpul lower is supposed to be for a shelf and pin lower, but many assume the MKE is 2 pin since it has the front takedown pin. It actually has the shelf that allows use of the Magpul lower. As far as I know, it doesn't fit on the K models.

The Magpul housing and selector lever works on the AP5 Core, HK Preban semis, and the other clones that follow that HK preban pattern. Combined with the Magpul selector that's the best way to get an ambi selector on the FCG.
On Preban HK roller guns and most clones, the trigger housing 'shelf' itself for acts as the denial block so a full auto FCG can't just be dropped into the trigger housing. With some clones, it may need some slight trimming/fitting to get correct fitment on the shelf against the magwell.
The FCG's compatible with the Magpul housing are the older 'SEF' style non-ambi FCG's as found in most clones and on the pre-bans. When you have the FCG removed, you can ID these from the notch at 12 o'clock in the selector lever hole.
On the newer factory HK ambi/burst type/Navy type FCG's, the selector notch is at about 7:30 not 12 o'clock and those FCG's are not compatible with the Magpul lower or the Magpul selector lever kit.

On modern HK roller guns (SP5 variants) the shelf is much smaller and in a different spot (so an SP5 'clip and pin' job on a FA housing is very different from a preban HK or clone 'clip and pin')
On some imported MP5 variants the trigger housing actually has a front pin - but on the modern HK's and most of those variants, the denial block isn't the 'shelf' but is instead a combination of a smaller shelf/denial notch, and a denial bar or plate installed in the receiver to block the installation of a full auto bolt carrier.

On the SP5's in particular, they use a modern ambi 'Navy' style FCG so none of the Magpul stuff works. On clones that don't follow the HK 'Preban' pattern shelf there's sometimes some JCN-style cutting/grinding/etc to make it work if you're really motivated.

And as already stated, the Magpul lower doesn't work on SP89's or K models because those use a second rear pin to secure a flat plate instead of a tab or shelf that is held against the receiver by the buttcap or buttstock. But the Magpul selector can generally be fitted to an older 'SEF' polymer housing. I've heard it can work in the super-old-school steel trigger housing as well but I've not seen it done or done it myself.
Which is a bummer because IMHO the K models would benefit the most from a slightly more vertical grip angle like the Magpul offers.

[GlockenSpiel]

I got the full-size version today, all looked good on picking it up. The welds, finish, machining, etc. all looked very good. The trilug even lines up at 12:00 as I'm told is spec for MP5s. The store owner is an MP5 guy and excitedly pulled out his full-auto grip frame to compare it to the AP5 one. Based on the pin (instead of shelf) construction he might get one to convert to full-auto. He said he had a PTR that was easy for him to convert but "blew up." The HKs have shelfs instead of pins and are hard to convert apparently.

I'm not planning on converting anything and didn't even put a brace on at this point. I took it apart and it was well-lubed and had been test-fired, with red army standard according to a flier in the case. The trigger is nicer than any HK roller-type gun I've shot; it's probably about six pounds with some sponge but a decently clean break. I like both the textured plastic forend and the countoured pistol grip, which seems a lot better for bigger hands and for holding onto for stock-less reloads. The safety was STIFF but started to loosen up by the end of the day.

I put about 150 rounds of 124 grain S&B through it with the stock magazine. It hit dead on with the largest aperture at about 15 yards. The largest aperture is so large it's not a problem to use even shooting without a stock, and I have some pretty long arms. Recoil is very mild as expected. I got through about two magazines without issue, but then started to get failures to eject, increasing to at least two a magazine. Incidentally, clear those with the muzzle pointed down; there's enough room for a casing to get down into the trigger housing if you point the muzzle up, especially if you've pulled the magazine. That lead to a bunch of failures to fire, upon which I found a spent casing in front of the hammer. I don't know if that is inherent to all MP5s or not though. The extractor seemed to be able to firmly grip a casing when I put one on the bolt face, and the cases showed slight marks from the extractor snapping over, so I do not think that is at issue. The cases showed the fluted scorch marks you would expect from the type.

The gun also had noticeably less violent ejection than I would expect from a roller-delayed gun. Based on the fact it ran great when clean and lubed up and worse when it got dirty, I am hoping this is part of the 500 round break-in. The performance being good than degrading would seem to support that. Hoping that's the case, as it will be a fantastic shooter and value if it gets rid of the failures to eject. Unfortunately I will probably be busy over the next few weeks, but it's too intriguing not to try and put it through its paces again the next time I make it out to the range.

[LittleLebowski]

What's a good light mount for either of these? I'd really like to use the tropical handguard on my full size.

[JRB]

What's a good light mount for either of these? I'd really like to use the tropical handguard on my full size.

Magpul MOE handguard + light mount of choice is 'easy button'.
You can also drill holes in a plastic handguard to match the screw holes for something like an Odin Mini with the 1913 bracket removed and mount it directly through the handguard.
I got to shoot an SP5K-PDW SBR that had a contract K grip with a light mounted in such a way, the thumb naturally fell onto the button on the back of the light so it was very slick and kept the original look too.

Samson, MI, FAB defense, and KAC all make rail/MLOK systems of various price and availability.

For the full size there's Surefire, B&T, and Steiner handguards with integrated lights. The Steiner is the best IMHO because it clears most 3-lug suppressors unlike the B&T or Surefire, but any of those three cost $350+ used and $500+ new, which is kind of ridiculous.

Edit: aside from some real 80's/early-90's 2xAA Maglite mounts that bolted in over the original handguard using the retaining pin hole as a bolt hole (and now command HK collector prices for some insane reason) I haven't seen any light mounts that don't replace or modify the factory handguard.

[LittleLebowski]

Magpul MOE handguard + light mount of choice is 'easy button'.
You can also drill holes in a plastic handguard to match the screw holes for something like an Odin Mini with the 1913 bracket removed and mount it directly through the handguard.
I got to shoot an SP5K-PDW SBR that had a contract K grip with a light mounted in such a way, the thumb naturally fell onto the button on the back of the light so it was very slick and kept the original look too.

Samson, MI, FAB defense, and KAC all make rail/MLOK systems of various price and availability.

For the full size there's Surefire, B&T, and Steiner handguards with integrated lights. The Steiner is the best IMHO because it clears most 3-lug suppressors unlike the B&T or Surefire, but any of those three cost $350+ used and $500+ new, which is kind of ridiculous.

Edit: aside from some real 80's/early-90's 2xAA Maglite mounts that bolted in over the original handguard using the retaining pin hole as a bolt hole (and now command HK collector prices for some insane reason) I haven't seen any light mounts that don't replace or modify the factory handguard.

Sweet, the Magpul handguards are on sale (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/sp89-mp5k-sl-handguard-prod125125.aspx), too!

Is the 80 degree locking head really needed for suppressed fire?

[JRB]

Sweet, the Magpul handguards are on sale (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguards-amp-rails/sp89-mp5k-sl-handguard-prod125125.aspx), too!

Is the 80 degree locking head really needed for suppressed fire?

Strongly recommended, yes. The more backpressure generated by the suppressor, the more critical it is.
Since it's a roller-delayed blowback system, anything that increases blowback is best addressed with a more aggressive locking piece to balance it all out. Otherwise the increased blowback basically overpowers the roller delay and starts beating the crap out of the gun.

[GlockenSpiel]

I would buy the 80 degree piece and install it, and take both to the range. If it won't cycle, put the original back in and maybe try the 80 again once the springs are worn down. I think not every set up needs it (depends on the gun, suppressor back pressure, ammo weight/pressure, your stock set up etc.). BUT if your gun needs it and you don't use it you could damage the receiver over time.

[Dorsai]

Magpul MOE handguard + light mount of choice is 'easy button'.
You can also drill holes in a plastic handguard to match the screw holes for something like an Odin Mini with the 1913 bracket removed and mount it directly through the handguard.
I got to shoot an SP5K-PDW SBR that had a contract K grip with a light mounted in such a way, the thumb naturally fell onto the button on the back of the light so it was very slick and kept the original look too.

Samson, MI, FAB defense, and KAC all make rail/MLOK systems of various price and availability.

For the full size there's Surefire, B&T, and Steiner handguards with integrated lights. The Steiner is the best IMHO because it clears most 3-lug suppressors unlike the B&T or Surefire, but any of those three cost $350+ used and $500+ new, which is kind of ridiculous.

Edit: aside from some real 80's/early-90's 2xAA Maglite mounts that bolted in over the original handguard using the retaining pin hole as a bolt hole (and now command HK collector prices for some insane reason) I haven't seen any light mounts that don't replace or modify the factory handguard.

I have a full size Zenith/MKE. Here are pics of the MOE handguard. I'm using a Surefire Scout with an MLOK mount on the right side, with the pressure pad on the left side in a M-LOK® Tape Switch Mounting Plate – Surefire® ST. I used some hockey tape to cover the cord and make sure it didn't snag on anything. It works very well. Also a Magpul VFG (I SBR'd the gun). I tried the Magpul grip module, but the grip was thinner than I liked so I ended up putting it in the huge box of experimental purchases. It does fit, you just don't use the front pushpin. I also bought the Magpul selector and it works fine on the original MKE grip module.

95838

95839

[JRB]

I would buy the 80 degree piece and install it, and take both to the range. If it won't cycle, put the original back in and maybe try the 80 again once the springs are worn down. I think not every set up needs it (depends on the gun, suppressor back pressure, ammo weight/pressure, your stock set up etc.). BUT if your gun needs it and you don't use it you could damage the receiver over time.

Ammo power factor plays a role as well. 115gr steel case Russian gun kibble and quality +P stuff are different beasts, especially in 124-147gr varieties.

RCM has the locking pieces in stock for $35, good to have it just to add that flexibility to the weapon really.


Has anyone with an AP5 measured the bolt gap as it came out of the box, and re-measured it after the '500rnd break-in'?

[LittleLebowski]

I was kinda hoping that installing the 80 degree locking head would not induce malfunctions on every trigger pull, but that’s not the case. WTF.

Edited to add: 147gr subs with a can. Ran fine before this change.

[JRB]

I was kinda hoping that installing the 80 degree locking head would not induce malfunctions on every trigger pull, but that’s not the case. WTF.

Edited to add: 147gr subs with a can. Ran fine before this change.

What kind of malfunctions? Does it run with with a 100 or 110* locking piece?

[rayrevolver]

I was kinda hoping that installing the 80 degree locking head would not induce malfunctions on every trigger pull, but that’s not the case. WTF.

Edited to add: 147gr subs with a can. Ran fine before this change.

What locking piece brand and what gap? And we are talking a full size MP5, right?

A few years ago I bought the RCM and then HKParts 80 degree aka 28 LP for Zenith K-PDW.

The RCM gap went to something waay out of range while the HKP was within tolerance. With the right rollers they both worked fine.

BUT for full size MP5s you don't change the LP, whether subs, supers, suppressed, or not.

I just sold off my Ambi-packs to pay for red dot pistol shenanigans, especially since the Magpul ESK works great and the triggers on the SEF packs are better.

And then found a local selling the B&T brace for a steal.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52486436953_1e2c6dbb0c.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/151953216@N05/43x52400Nv)

[HCM]

Enabler post- Atlantic Arms has bare bones model AP-5 and AP-5 P on sale for $1099 after “add to cart” pricing.

They also have the S&B braces for both on sale for $99 and MKE mags 2/$79.

98820

[JRB]

PSA has the AP5-M (MP5K non-PDW) style for $899 after the coupon code:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/century-ap5-m-9mm-pistol-4-5-30rd-black-hg6036a-n.html

[WobblyPossum]

PSA has the AP5-M (MP5K non-PDW) style for $899 after the coupon code:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/century-ap5-m-9mm-pistol-4-5-30rd-black-hg6036a-n.html

They’ve also been selling the regular AP5 (full-size MP5 clone) for $1000 with a coupon code for the past few weeks. It’ll go out of stock for a couple of days then it’ll come back. I think the code was “century.” It’s sold out now but I expect it to come back in stock.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/century-ap5-9mm-pistol-9-30rd-black-hg6034a-n.html

[Screwball]

I think the code was “century.” It’s sold out now but I expect it to come back in stock.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/century-ap5-9mm-pistol-9-30rd-black-hg6034a-n.html

It must have sold out just before you posted… being they were in stock maybe an hour or so prior.

[HCM]

Enabler post- Atlantic Arms has bare bones model AP-5 and AP-5 P on sale for $1099 after “add to cart” pricing.

They also have the S&B braces for both on sale for $99 and MKE mags 2/$79.

98820

I picked up my AP5-P today. Gun itself seems nice, however the metal portion of the SBT tactical brace appears to be out of spec and does not fit into the end of the receiver. My FFL had another AP5-P in stock, they tried the brace on the other gun and it did not fit their other gun either.

FFL’s gunsmith advised he’s seen prior issues with SB braces being out of spec.

Ordering a Jmac 1913 adapter and will call SB on Monday.

[Archimagirus]

Possibly a very stupid question. If one wants to convert one of these to an SBR, is 922r a thing? If so, what parts are recommended to replace? Does one of these with a brace possibly qualify for the Brace amnesty thing that is forth coming?

[HCM]

I picked up my AP5-P today. Gun itself seems nice, however the metal portion of the SBT tactical brace appears to be out of spec and does not fit into the end of the receiver. My FFL had another AP5-P in stock, they tried the brace on the other gun and it did not fit their other gun either.

FFL’s gunsmith advised he’s seen prior issues with SB braces being out of spec.

Ordering a Jmac 1913 adapter and will call SB on Monday.

Update - S&B replaced the out of spec brace without question. Apparently my LGS guy was correct about it being a known issue.

[richiecotite]

Possibly a very stupid question. If one wants to convert one of these to an SBR, is 922r a thing? If so, what parts are recommended to replace? Does one of these with a brace possibly qualify for the Brace amnesty thing that is forth coming?

I copied this from someone on arfcom, who copied it from someone on HK pro. Seems to jell with what I’ve read on various forums looking into myself; just replace German with Turkish.

With 922r 6 parts need to be replaced from the list below as you are only allowed to have 10 foreign parts when creating a rifle. As it stands with the SP5 all parts are made in Germany as this is imported as a pistol.

You can only use 10 of the following parts, 6 need to be replaced
1. Receiver
2. Barrel
3. Trunion
4. Bolt
5. Bolt Carrier
6. Cocking Handle
7. Trigger Box
8. Trigger
9. Hammer
10. Sear
11. Buttstock
12. Pistol Grip module
13. Forearm / Handguard
14. Magazine Housing
15. Magazine Follower
16. Magazine Floorplate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Archimagirus]

I copied this from someone on arfcom, who copied it from someone on HK pro. Seems to jell with what I’ve read on various forums looking into myself; just replace German with Turkish.

With 922r 6 parts need to be replaced from the list below as you are only allowed to have 10 foreign parts when creating a rifle. As it stands with the SP5 all parts are made in Germany as this is imported as a pistol.

You can only use 10 of the following parts, 6 need to be replaced
1. Receiver
2. Barrel
3. Trunion
4. Bolt
5. Bolt Carrier
6. Cocking Handle
7. Trigger Box
8. Trigger
9. Hammer
10. Sear
11. Buttstock
12. Pistol Grip module
13. Forearm / Handguard
14. Magazine Housing
15. Magazine Follower
16. Magazine Floorplate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had found a similar list, and forgot to reply to my own post. I ordered the Magpul grip and handguard, an American trigger box and the new Timney MP5 trigger, which should get me 7 parts once I install an American stock after the SBR paperwork is approved. I also ordered an American bolt charging handle, but I may or may not install that. Those options should allow me to use foreign made magazines.

Thanks for the reply.

[HeavyDuty]

The Palmetto $900 AP5-M deal is really tempting, but it’s a whole ‘nother ecosystem to buy into plus compliance for SBRing looks expensive.

[Nephrology]

The Palmetto $900 AP5-M deal is really tempting, but it’s a whole ‘nother ecosystem to buy into plus compliance for SBRing looks expensive.

Yeah I'm in a phase of my life where I'm not interested in new firearms without a demonstrated genuine need. One day I will circle back to this though as this is a cool looking gun for sure.

[The Rat]

I was kinda hoping that installing the 80 degree locking head would not induce malfunctions on every trigger pull, but that’s not the case. WTF.

Edited to add: 147gr subs with a can. Ran fine before this change.

IIRC the 80 degree locking piece is only needed on the K models for 147gr/can use; the full size supposedly doesn't need it.

Ofc I had a K model with an 80 degree locking piece and it still had intermittent malfunctions that annoyed me to the point that I sold it for an APC9. No experience with the full size, just repeating what I've often seen posted.

[LittleLebowski]

I was kinda hoping that installing the 80 degree locking head would not induce malfunctions on every trigger pull, but that’s not the case. WTF.

Edited to add: 147gr subs with a can. Ran fine before this change.

Pretty sure this is because I'm using 147gr flat noses.

[Evil_Ed]

FWIW my Z5-P or whatever it was (MP5K-PDW clone; threaded and 3 lug barrel) that I SBRed has not had a problem with 147 flatnose, ball, JHP, etc. I replaced the locking piece with an 80 degree one, replaced rollers to bring bolt gap back to tolerance, and no problems after that. The can / mount I'm using is an Omega 9k with the older/larger 3 lug mount (that's external to the can, not one of the new ones that mostly rides inside the can), and it's fun as hell.

The other thing you might want to do - if you had misfeeds of any kind, replace the extractor spring. They go out of wack REALLY easily on the 9mm guns as soon as there's a misfeed. If you want added insurance, replace it with a G3 rifle extractor spring; it's a lot stronger. It's probably overkill but it also won't get bent and become useless after only a couple of misfeeds. The extractor spring on 9mm MP5/etc is only as strong as it needs to be for a pistol cartridge (typical German, only as much as necessary), and replacing it with the rifle version of the spring can help.

[Evil_Ed]

For those going "What? Huh? Bolt Gap?" - order one of these - Feeler Gauge Set from Grainger (https://www.grainger.com/product/PROTO-Feeler-Gauge-Set-Metric-3R015). You can order the "official" (maybe) go/no-go feeler gauge set from HK Parts...which has two gauges, and costs $45. Or you can order this one, which does the same job except better, and it's cheaper. Hell, buy two for the same price as one of those. If you already have metric feeler gauge sets in .05 mm (or better) granularity, then rock on.

HKPro has a good write up and I think this is a copy - https://www.reddit.com/r/MP5/wiki/guide/bolt-gap/. You want to get your bolt gap as close to the maximum as you can - as the parts wear, bolt gap will close over time. It might never get into an out-of-specification distance but it will shrink, so starting from .45mm is a good thing, not a bad thing.

To measure, just unload the gun, lock the bolt to the rear, slap-chop your way to success, drop the hammer on the dry gun, invert the gun, and insert a feeler gauge between the bolt head and the bolt carrier itself. The .25mm leaf should fit in and bottom out just fine; if you're going for max gap, .50 should barely scrape in and anything thicker should be a hard "not fitting". If .50 or over drop in, you need to find a set of rollers (RobertRTG is a fantastic resource and pretty reasonably priced (https://robertrtg.com)) that are smaller than your current roller markings. Personally I'd aim for .45mm as max, but .50 is within spec. It'll just feel a little more "robust" at .50.

I'm not sure what less than minimum gap feels like, but on a K3P/G3k clone-type toy, having a bolt gap of .55-.60 (slightly too big - .60 didn't fit but .55 did) makes it hard to unlock and rack the action, and man does it kick like a mule. After two mags it was clear it was NOT closing the gap at all by shooting, and I was getting worried it was starting to dent the rear of the receiver and create roller dimples in the walls (not good). I changed things back to original and took out the slower locking piece that I couldn't find the proper rollers for (I was trying to shoot it suppressed) and with the gap set back at it's original .35 or whatever it was from the factory, the recoil impulse felt a billion times better and it was much easier to unlock the action on. Admittedly this is a .308 roller gun I'm talking about; much less energy and violence in an MP5/clone...but the same principle exists there.

[GlockenSpiel]

119037119038

I had put probably 4-500 rounds of 124 grain NATO through the gun and was still getting multiple failures to eject every magazine. I then put in an HK ejector, extractor, and extractor spring. Today I shot 100 rounds of the same ammo with that setup and no more malfunctions so far. Target is 15 shots from 15 yards with the Vickers smg sling.

I don't know if it eventually would have become reliable without the new parts (not that I'm sure about that after 100 rounds), but I'd suggest ordering those parts for any new AP5.

[Greg Bell]

MKE could probably cure this problem for $9 or less. Or century. These guns are awesome, just put the right parts in them MKE!!!

[GlockenSpiel]

With the stock parts it had less positive ejection which seemed to lead to failures to eject. With the hk ejector and extractor it was consistently bouncing the empties off the ceiling at my 3:00. I wonder if the ammo they're using is just extremely hot, so that it has enough energy a suboptimal design for the small parts is fine. Annoying, but actually replacing a few parts would be less annoying than muddling through an extended break-in.

Here's the 9 Hole vid where Henry talks about the potential issues with the stock ejector/extractor:
https://youtu.be/Z8y7InXSmlg?si=PxHcCuxrHVbVsYHG

[kwb377]

I replaced the extractor spring and ejector and spring in my AP5-P with HK parts when new before I ever put a round through it...it's been flawless through @1k rounds, mostly 115gr. Definitely worth the extra few $$ to eliminate the headache.

[HeavyDuty]

I just saw MAC is doing a couple versions of Turkish MP5. Has anyone seen these yet?

[GlockenSpiel]

https://atlanticfirearms.com/mac-5k-9mm-pistol

Never heard of them until now. No cold-hammer forged barrel according to this, but the price would probably be right. I am down for an mp5 clone in every household

[Bruce Cartwright]

119037119038

I had put probably 4-500 rounds of 124 grain NATO through the gun and was still getting multiple failures to eject every magazine. I then put in an HK ejector, extractor, and extractor spring. Today I shot 100 rounds of the same ammo with that setup and no more malfunctions so far. Target is 15 shots from 15 yards with the Vickers smg sling.

I don't know if it eventually would have become reliable without the new parts (not that I'm sure about that after 100 rounds), but I'd suggest ordering those parts for any new AP5.

GlockenSpiel:

Where are you getting those parts? Thanks for your attention to my request.

Bruce

[GlockenSpiel]

GlockenSpiel:

Where are you getting those parts? Thanks for your attention to my request.

Bruce

Hey Bruce, I found the ejector at the gunbroker seller "BravoTac", and the extractor and spring at HKPartsPro.com (aka Blue Ridge Supply). The extractor/ejector were around $50 each.

If anyone can find them in stock for the ~$35 price they used to be, I'd love to pick up spares.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Hey Bruce, I found the ejector at the gunbroker seller "BravoTac", and the extractor and spring at HKPartsPro.com (aka Blue Ridge Supply). The extractor/ejector were around $50 each.

If anyone can find them in stock for the ~$35 price they used to be, I'd love to pick up spares.

GlockenSpiel:

Many thanks! I'll check out both sources.

Bruce

[rayrevolver]

Every now and then I mull buying the "new" HK21 inspired MP5 bolts with a robust extractor design. Is it worth $230-265 when replacement springs are $10? Probably not.

https://atlanticfirearms.com/m-a-d-bolt-head

https://rimcountrymfg.com/product/rcm-mp5-e-9mm-bolt-head/

MAD was the first to market and RCM now has a similar product. I suppose if you are a full auto guy then maybe the price is worth it.

I just traded into more 158gr subs. Time to get the MP5 out to the range!