General (and some specific) Defensive Shotgun Questions

[SwampDweller]

I've been into black polymer semi auto pistols (HK, Glock, etc), AKs, and ARs, but recently I've begun rethinking my defensive and overall firearms needs. Something about revolvers and pump action shotguns has always appealed to me, and I am exploring the viability/practicality of them as primary defensive tools. I've been out of the shotgun game for a while, and when I was in it, it was primarily for duck/dove hunting as well as skeet shooting. In trying to dip my toes back in the water on this subject, I had the following questions regarding selecting a home defense shotgun:

-With pistols, the general rule of thumb (according to Todd, DocGKR, and others) seems to be 1k rounds of stoppage-free shots before trusting to carry/use for defense. What number is this for shotguns? Specifically pumps like the Mossberg 590A1, but also for the Benelli M4.

-How do modern Mossberg 590A1s hold up to hard use? I experienced quite a bit of grief years ago from Remington after their QC took a nosedive following the buyout, and it seems like many manufacturers since 2020 have experienced a decline in that way. For that matter, what qualifies as "hard use" with a pump shotgun? How many rounds do shotgun classes usually go through per student?

-I grew up using shotguns (mostly 870s) hunting, but I do remember experiencing short stroking a few times during high-speed events like doves flashing by. It's often made me avoid thinking of pump shotguns in a defensive role. After all, if I mess up pumping it when I'm hunting and having fun, who's to say I wouldn't during a life or death situation? Is this something that should rule out the shotgun for me?

-I'm leaning towards a pump, but the Benelli M4 is the only semi auto on my radar. While there are many singing its praises for reliability on the internet, I have seen the opposite reported, here among other places. Spending $2k on a shotgun only to be finicky would probably make my head explode, so I'd rather make a pump work if I'm overblowing the short stroking concern. Maybe training could get me past it.

Thank you, I'm basically at newbie status in the subject matter of shotguns for serious use.

[03RN]

If you locktight the ejector of the Mossberg and it goes 100rounda without an issue than I'd trust it as much as any other gun out there. Same with any gun honestly. Give me a glock19 or a Springfield milspec and I'd figure it will go and go and go.

Mossbergs are about as rugged as you'll find. I taught shotguns to some Philippinos that has 20 year old m500s that were held together with bailing wire(the wood at least). I lock tighted all the ejectors the night before and there were only a few guns that died due to springs in the trigger group rusting through.

Short stroking is a thing. Train more and it's less of a thing but still possible.

While I prefer the Benelli it's more due to nostalgia over the Beretta. If you're not hung up on the Benelli then get the 1301.

94702

[Lon]

There’s a 600+ page thread on the Beretta 1301 you should read before spending $$ on an M4. Lots of good info in that thread.

[SwampDweller]

If you locktight the ejector of the Mossberg and it goes 100rounda without an issue than I'd trust it as much as any other gun out there. Same with any gun honestly. Give me a glock19 or a Springfield milspec and I'd figure it will go and go and go.

Mossbergs are about as rugged as you'll find. I taught shotguns to some Philippinos that has 20 year old m500s that were held together with bailing wire(the wood at least). I lock tighted all the ejectors the night before and there were only a few guns that died due to springs in the trigger group rusting through.

Short stroking is a thing. Train more and it's less of a thing but still possible.

While I prefer the Benelli it's more due to nostalgia over the Beretta. If you're not hung up on the Benelli then get the 1301.

94702
Yeah, I imagine short stroking is always a potential thing no matter how well trained one is. But how big of a deal is it, is it a "you'll get killt in the streetz" thing to where it would be better to go with a semi auto?

I've wanted a Benelli M4 since I was a kid, but my brain also tells me that would be the most fool-proof option since it went through insanely rigorous testing, had a very high Mean Rounds Between Stoppages, and perhaps most impressively, seems to be able to live through Marine Corps service! I'm not aware of rigorous government testing on the 1301, but I am open to the idea of one.

[SwampDweller]

There’s a 600+ page thread on the Beretta 1301 you should read before spending $$ on an M4. Lots of good info in that thread.

I'll track it down, thanks. Like I said, I'm open to the 1301, but the track record of the M4 is rather impressive, including serving very reliably at the Battlefield Vegas indoor machinegun rental range. I liked that I could track down MRBS figures and gov't testing data for the M4, I haven't been able to find anything on the 1301. I do have my dad's Beretta Silver Mallard that has served well, but I don't know how much that has in common mechanically with the 1301. I have noticed that the 1301 seems to be the majority favorite here, which speaks well for it.

[Default.mp3]

Why would you go for a shotgun over a rifle for defensive purposes?

[SwampDweller]

Why would you go for a shotgun over a rifle for defensive purposes?

I just kinda like em and like having more than one tool in the toolbox. No doubt it's an effective means for home defense. Can be loaded up with buckshot for close encounters, and if needed could stretch out to a hundred yards or so with a good slug, which is farther than line of sight around here. Could also be useful for hunting, especially if I can swap barrels as is possible in most of the pumps I'm looking at.

I also feel like they-- particularly pump actions but also some semi autos-- are less susceptible to political shenanigans as the future of our 2A rights becomes bleaker and bleaker.

In any case, at the moment I do have a 5.56 carbine set up as a home defense long gun loaded with good expanding ammunition.

[medmo]

Why would you go for a shotgun over a rifle for defensive purposes?

You actually went there? Going to get comfy, change into sweat pants, and get the popcorn ready.....

[Default.mp3]

You actually went there? Going to get comfy, change into sweat pants, and get the popcorn ready.....Get comfy for what? The reasons aren't that complicated, AFAIK. I was simply curious as to why someone would want to put extra effort into learning the shotgun when they already have rifles, particularly something that takes as much effort to master as the pump shotgun, or to spend a bunch of money on a semi-auto shotgun (and still have a decent learning curve). For me, I would never swap out the rifle for a shotgun with my current lifestyle, but I certainly do want to learn to master the pump shotgun, similarly for political reasons.

[03RN]

Get comfy for what? The reasons aren't that complicated, AFAIK. I was simply curious as to why someone would want to put extra effort into learning the shotgun when they already have rifles, particularly something that takes as much effort to master as the pump shotgun, or to spend a bunch of money on a semi-auto shotgun (and still have a decent learning curve). For me, I would never swap out the rifle for a shotgun with my current lifestyle, but I certainly do want to learn to master the pump shotgun, similarly for political reasons.

Shotguns aren't that difficult to master and the capacity of rifles is kinda not that important in CONUS. So why not use the more effective tool?

[medmo]

Get comfy for what? The reasons aren't that complicated, AFAIK. I was simply curious as to why someone would want to put extra effort into learning the shotgun when they already have rifles, particularly something that takes as much effort to master as the pump shotgun, or to spend a bunch of money on a semi-auto shotgun (and still have a decent learning curve). For me, I would never swap out the rifle for a shotgun with my current lifestyle, but I certainly do want to learn to master the pump shotgun, similarly for political reasons.

"Why would you go for a shotgun over a rifle for defensive purposes?"

Oh, I was anticipating a thread steer right into the bog of "why defensive rifles have obsoleted shotguns" versus "why shotguns are the best defensive weapon" discussion. Maybe I was wrong. I kind of hope not as I was looking forward to the reading entertainment. :)

[Default.mp3]

Shotguns aren't that difficult to master and the capacity of rifles is kinda not that important in CONUS. So why not use the more effective tool?I have always been told that the shotgun is the "thinking man's long arm", and no matter how you cut it, most shotguns have a more complicated manual-of-arms compared to a rifle, and the wider capabilities also means more things to master. Learning basic use of a shotgun may not be all that hard, but mastering seems like it'd be far more difficult (having to do slug select, learning various reloading techniques, ammo management, etc.); Hell, I wouldn't even really say I have mastered the rifle, as I set a pretty high bar for what "mastery" is, even though I've taken more than a few classes and am very comfortable in the basic operations of the AR. Given how most of us have limited time and resources to throw at guns and shooting, I was interested in the thought process behind wanting to expend all those resources for a platform that offers only incremental improvements when it appeared that they already had highly effective set-up.

[willie]

A friend bought the tax stamp, attached a regular stock to a Mossberg 12 ga Shockwave, and added a +1 extension. I gave him a supply of Federal low recoil buckshot. He has a nifty home defense weapon.

[03RN]

I have always been told that the shotgun is the "thinking man's long arm", and no matter how you cut it, most shotguns have a more complicated manual-of-arms compared to a rifle, and the wider capabilities also means more things to master. Learning basic use of a shotgun may not be all that hard, but mastering seems like it'd be far more difficult (having to do slug select, learning various reloading techniques, ammo management, etc.); Hell, I wouldn't even really say I have mastered the rifle, as I set a pretty high bar for what "mastery" is, even though I've taken more than a few classes and am very comfortable in the basic operations of the AR. Given how most of us have limited time and resources to throw at guns and shooting, I was interested in the thought process behind wanting to expend all those resources for a platform that offers only incremental improvements when it appeared that they already had highly effective set-up.

I guess I missed where the op said he had limited time or resources and just wanted the simplest long gun.

Sounds like he wants to learn something new.

[TCinVA]

-With pistols, the general rule of thumb (according to Todd, DocGKR, and others) seems to be 1k rounds of stoppage-free shots before trusting to carry/use for defense. What number is this for shotguns? Specifically pumps like the Mossberg 590A1, but also for the Benelli M4.


Generally shotguns that aren't working right will manifest that with a much lower round count. It's usually right away. When a client shows up with a gun that isn't running right the first thing I do is try running my ammunition through it as fast as possible. Running the gun at my speed usually tells me where to start looking to determine what's up. Often we find that their ammo is not working right with their gun. (Very common...the ammunition should be the first suspect when a gun isn't running) If I attempt to run the gun and it isn't working properly it's usually either because the gun is new and something is wrong out of the box, or the gun is really, really old and hasn't been maintained. Police trade-in guns often show up to class where the new owner had no idea that the gun never saw any maintenance while in police use and it needs all the springs to be replaced, a new safety detent (on Mossbergs) or new shell stops, etc.

With a Benelli M4 you are most likely going to end up finding that problems running will come down to ammo. Benellis in general are pickier about ammunition than pump guns or the Beretta 1301.

On a pump gun, if the gun runs through a couple hundred shells of birdshot well and you run a few rounds of your preferred buckshot through it without issue, it's probably fine. With a semi-auto you want to be more careful in evaluating your buckshot loads, especially if they are "low recoil" loads that haven't been thoroughly proven in your chosen gun.

By that I mean that I've fired or seen fired many thousands of rounds of Federal Flight Control low recoil buckshot through 1301 shotguns without issue. I'd have no concerns about a 1301 running low recoil FFC buckshot if I picked up a new one tomorrow, so I wouldn't see the need to invest a bunch of money shooting FFC buckshot through the gun to verify function.

If you settle on Uncle Wuzzy's Ammo Haus' chained buckshot load as your preferred munition, I haven't a clue how that's going to run in a 1301 so you'd best test it thoroughly. Etc.



-How do modern Mossberg 590A1s hold up to hard use? I experienced quite a bit of grief years ago from Remington after their QC took a nosedive following the buyout, and it seems like many manufacturers since 2020 have experienced a decline in that way. For that matter, what qualifies as "hard use" with a pump shotgun? How many rounds do shotgun classes usually go through per student?


A 590A1 that's made right works just fine. I had a client a couple of weeks ago with a brand new 590A1 that ran like a raped ape. I've also had clients show up with 590A1's that had problems with the stamped parts that ended up locking up hard and had to go back to the factory to essentially be rebuilt.

A defensive shotgun needs to be reliable above all else. A properly built 870 or 590 will serve very well as a defensive shotgun. You will eventually break something on a pump gun, but it will take a while to make that happen and most people aren't using their guns enough to get there.

Round count depends on the class. Some of my classes have gone through nearly 300 shells in a day. Some have gone through a little more than 100. It depends on the clients in the class and what they're capable of. My Home Defense Shotgun class tends to be lower round count because people are usually drinking from the fire hose and they're not used to the sheer physicality of how I'm teaching them to run a shotgun. HDS runs every string of fire from a cruiser ready setup of the shotgun precisely because I only have people for a very limited amount of time and reps, so I need to ensure they master the most critical part of using a defensive shotgun: Getting it into action. A consequence of that is that they also get as many reps as possible setting the gun up for cruiser ready. This is especially important for people running semi-auto shotguns because each of them has their own unique control system that damn near nobody actually trains on enough.

In HDS I have to teach a bit about home defense, teach a bit about the nature of the threat, teach a bit about the realities of violent crime, teach a bit about how the police ain't showing up, teach a bit about how shotguns work, teach them how to live safely with the gun, teach them about justifiable use of force, and then teach them how to use the gun. And during lunch I try to teach them how not to get shot by responding police. The rest of the time is spent teaching them how to load, manipulate, and shoot the gun and a little bit about using cover. It's 50 pounds of material I'm trying to cram into whatever vessel a client brings to the class. Some folks show up with a dump truck. Some show up with a thimble.

The goal for that class is to prepare someone for the reality of home defense and to successfully articulate why they did what they did in the aftermath of using force.

My Shotgun Skills class presumes someone has already had all that and just goes into greater depth about actually performing with the gun so we start making loud noises after the safety/med brief and we shoot as much as possible. That class is about repetition with coaching...coaching being a rare thing to encounter in training, unfortunately.



-I grew up using shotguns (mostly 870s) hunting, but I do remember experiencing short stroking a few times during high-speed events like doves flashing by. It's often made me avoid thinking of pump shotguns in a defensive role. After all, if I mess up pumping it when I'm hunting and having fun, who's to say I wouldn't during a life or death situation? Is this something that should rule out the shotgun for me?


No. Short stroking happens, but generally it's happening to people who have not ingrained the correct level of aggressiveness in running a pump gun. The only thing we do gently with a pump shotgun is press the trigger. Everything else is brute force, and as much of it as humanly possible. We have to run the action forcefully to the rear, and then forcefully forward. I run a pump gun with far more aggression now than I did when I first started hunting with one. In class believe it or not, I rarely see someone short stroke a pump gun. When I do it's usually because they are a smaller statured person with an ill-fitting gun. One of the reasons we want to get a shorter stock on a defensive pump is to allow the shooter to get as much muscle on the action as possible. I also take time in class to show folks that the next shell is only released from the magazine when the forend is at the absolute last amount of it's travel.

Focusing on running the action hard and literally showing them that the next shell doesn't pop out until the forend can't move anymore tends to accomplish the feat of taking people who are fairly unfamiliar with defensive shotguns and turning them into people who run the action harder than Ike was on Tina. They're usually pretty tired by the end of the day, but their guns run.

So I'm not super worried about people short stroking a pump gun once they've been introduced to the proper level of aggression with which to run one. When you run one like a viking berserker swinging an axe, short stroking stops becoming a problem. Then the only time I see it is if someone is trying to make me fall in love with how fast they can fire a followup shot with the pump. If they want to make me fall in love I give them the floor and let them try it a time or two, and invariably they make a mistake like short stroking and that's when I tell them that a fast click isn't nearly as impressive as a boom another tenth of a second later. The point gets made and they move on with their life. :cool:



-I'm leaning towards a pump, but the Benelli M4 is the only semi auto on my radar. While there are many singing its praises for reliability on the internet, I have seen the opposite reported, here among other places. Spending $2k on a shotgun only to be finicky would probably make my head explode, so I'd rather make a pump work if I'm overblowing the short stroking concern. Maybe training could get me past it.


The M4 is a fine shotgun. It's expensive, heavy, has a more limited aftermarket and tends to be pickier about ammunition than the Beretta 1301. That doesn't make it a bad or unreliable shotgun because it's not. Every M4 I've seen (not that there have been scores of them) fed with ammunition it likes runs great.

My personal choice is the Beretta 1301. I own two and I've seen literally hundreds more in class and I can count on one hand the number of problems I've seen with them. I'm about to have to start counting on the other hand because of an increase in issues from more recently produced shotguns I've encountered, but even then a lot of those are the result of some aftermarket parts that don't play well with the gun. (Aftermarket magazine followers, for example, are a terrible idea right now)

The Beretta is lighter, cheaper, and doesn't care much what you feed it. The only ammunition my guns haven't fed are beanbag rounds...and I don't expect it to feed those anyway.

I usually keep a 1301 staged for home defense. Lately because I've been too lazy to load my 1301 back up since they have been doing teaching duty, I've kept an 870 staged for home defense. I spend enough time behind both to not really care which one I'm using.

People often ask what the point of a pump gun is in a world where the 1301 exists.

Pump guns are still relevant defensive tools because I watch people who own 1301 shotguns come to class and for the first few reps stare blankly at their gun as they try to remember which button does what and what order they need to be pressed in. I don't have that problem because I shoot defensive shotguns far more than the typical person by exponential orders of magnitude. Most people are not training or practicing with defensive shotguns much if at all.

I have a significant number of regular clients that treat coming to my class as their training and practice with the shotgun. That whole "recency" thing isn't something they've quite mastered yet. A good many of them have nowhere but the ranges I'm using that they can shoot anything but slugs...so it's understandable. I have clients that spend half the year in a country where they can't have so much as a pen knife, so ingraining skill is harder.

So if you are going to be the kind of person who does a class once or twice a year as your training with the defensive shotgun, you're likely best served with a pump gun.

If you're the kind of person who is going to spend 5 minutes a week on dryfire with your defensive shotgun, you go to the range once a month and work through a couple of boxes of ammo, and you take a class or two a year to use as a test of where you're at...well...you're probably just fine with a semi-auto.

[TCinVA]

I have always been told that the shotgun is the "thinking man's long arm", and no matter how you cut it, most shotguns have a more complicated manual-of-arms compared to a rifle

Well, that depends on what you are used to. I 'member when semi-automatics with detachable box magazines were tough for people who grew up on tube fed magazines to understand.

The typical shooter today comes to the defensive shotgun with no experience of the sporting shotgun. They grew up with Glocks and AR15's and that makes a manual repeater rather alien to them.

The motivation to use the shotgun has morphed from "I have a shotgun, how do I use it for self defense?" of yesteryear to "Shotguns are really fuckin' effective at making bad guys stop what they're doing. How do I get me a piece of 'dat?"

My last private session was with a client who wanted a pump shotgun ever since he used one in a video game as a kid. And then he went on to do significant academic work that involved sewing people up when they were seriously injured and encountering the real world results of somebody who had a catastrophic failure in their victim selection process and managed to end up on the wrong end of a 12 gauge with buckshot sealed the deal for him.



Learning basic use of a shotgun may not be all that hard, but mastering seems like it'd be far more difficult (having to do slug select, learning various reloading techniques, ammo management, etc.)

That's the beauty of a defensive shotgun. The basics of use will be sufficient to handle just about anything you are likely to face in the real world.

I don't bother teaching slug select except in the more advanced classes, and then mainly because it's a good manipulations workout. Those who live on farms or large homesteads or in places where they are likely to encounter carnivores big enough to occasionally have human on the menu have a legit practical need to understand slugs and how to use them, but your typical urban and suburban homeowner isn't messing with slug select drills. I can take an average person and get them competent with a defensive pump shotgun in a day's work through sheer repetition. That's why I structure the training the way I do...everything is done from the shotgun in a "cruiser ready" or "closet ready" state. Every time they load the gun they're setting it up for that state. Every time they make the gun go bang they're charging it first.

It actually works pretty well. They're learning that to make the gun shoot, they run the action which is handy because that's what you do to make the gun go bang after the first shot, too. So to make the gun go boom they run the action and pull the trigger and then keep doing that until it stops making noise.

I teach the manipulations to be simple and easy to remember. If they can make a fist, they can do an emergency reload, etc. Everybody doesn't get as fast as I am with it, but I watch them succeed at it over and over again. There again, repetition and coaching.

Unlike any other firearm, if I can teach them to charge the pump gun, mount the gun, and then fire one accurate shot a second then they've probably got enough skills to handle multiple bad guys inside their house in a home invasion scenario. The ability to press the trigger one time and almost guarantee immediate incapacitation is a considerable force multiplier.

Speaking of urban and suburban, I've had an influx of people seeking out shotgun training from Baltimore. Largely people who know very little about firearms apart from they can get their hands on shotguns and nobody blinks an eye.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Great posts! As an aside, when the Covid wave first hit, the LGS was just full of folks buying pump guns. The Turkish guns flew off the shelves. I spent a bit of time in the store doing paper work on transfers and every time, the pump guns were going out the door.

Another aside, the club I've been shooting at decided to due a two gun, shotgun/handgun match. You could just shoot your handgun. I was surprised that quite of few of the 'gamer' crowd didn't have shotguns and said they never fired one! They just shot the match for more practice with their game rig. I ran my 1300 Defender which was the gun I ran in Tom Givens' class. Worked fine.

I've thought about moving on up to the 1301 world, but it's really not that useful for me and other expenses rule. Hit the lottery and I will.

[Rex G]

Short-stroking can certainly happen. It can start happening, after decades of never happening, with one example being my aging self. (I not only lost my rhythm, but my pumping-arm wrist and should have not aged well.) I still use pump guns, that are stockless, and moved to the Benelli M2, for stocked shotguns. I would have moved to the Benelli M4, but I worked for a PD that allowed only the Remington 870, and the Benelli M1/M2. (No gas guns were ever approved, and the M4 is gas-assisted.) Now that I am retired from LEO-ing, my next shotgun may well be an M4.

The Beretta 1301 is certainly the trend, around here at P-F, lately, but, I am too old to try to learn yet another safety button position. Not only that, but if the safety button is located at the rear of the trigger guard, it is more friendly to being operated ambidextrously.

I live in the wet, green, vegetated, eastern edge of Texas, in a built-up area, so, a shotgun makes plenty of sense, as a defensive long gun. Out on the plains, or the desert, a rifle would be the better primary long gun.

[Lon]

If you’re gonna go pump, I’d say order a VangComp Signature model and rest easy knowing you’ve got a good thunderstick. https://www.instagram.com/p/CigeuF2JNfe/?igshid=NjZiMGI4OTY=

[SwampDweller]

Generally shotguns that aren't working right will manifest that with a much lower round count. It's usually right away. When a client shows up with a gun that isn't running right the first thing I do is try running my ammunition through it as fast as possible. Running the gun at my speed usually tells me where to start looking to determine what's up. Often we find that their ammo is not working right with their gun. (Very common...the ammunition should be the first suspect when a gun isn't running) If I attempt to run the gun and it isn't working properly it's usually either because the gun is new and something is wrong out of the box, or the gun is really, really old and hasn't been maintained. Police trade-in guns often show up to class where the new owner had no idea that the gun never saw any maintenance while in police use and it needs all the springs to be replaced, a new safety detent (on Mossbergs) or new shell stops, etc.

With a Benelli M4 you are most likely going to end up finding that problems running will come down to ammo. Benellis in general are pickier about ammunition than pump guns or the Beretta 1301.

On a pump gun, if the gun runs through a couple hundred shells of birdshot well and you run a few rounds of your preferred buckshot through it without issue, it's probably fine. With a semi-auto you want to be more careful in evaluating your buckshot loads, especially if they are "low recoil" loads that haven't been thoroughly proven in your chosen gun.

By that I mean that I've fired or seen fired many thousands of rounds of Federal Flight Control low recoil buckshot through 1301 shotguns without issue. I'd have no concerns about a 1301 running low recoil FFC buckshot if I picked up a new one tomorrow, so I wouldn't see the need to invest a bunch of money shooting FFC buckshot through the gun to verify function.

If you settle on Uncle Wuzzy's Ammo Haus' chained buckshot load as your preferred munition, I haven't a clue how that's going to run in a 1301 so you'd best test it thoroughly. Etc.



A 590A1 that's made right works just fine. I had a client a couple of weeks ago with a brand new 590A1 that ran like a raped ape. I've also had clients show up with 590A1's that had problems with the stamped parts that ended up locking up hard and had to go back to the factory to essentially be rebuilt.

A defensive shotgun needs to be reliable above all else. A properly built 870 or 590 will serve very well as a defensive shotgun. You will eventually break something on a pump gun, but it will take a while to make that happen and most people aren't using their guns enough to get there.

Round count depends on the class. Some of my classes have gone through nearly 300 shells in a day. Some have gone through a little more than 100. It depends on the clients in the class and what they're capable of. My Home Defense Shotgun class tends to be lower round count because people are usually drinking from the fire hose and they're not used to the sheer physicality of how I'm teaching them to run a shotgun. HDS runs every string of fire from a cruiser ready setup of the shotgun precisely because I only have people for a very limited amount of time and reps, so I need to ensure they master the most critical part of using a defensive shotgun: Getting it into action. A consequence of that is that they also get as many reps as possible setting the gun up for cruiser ready. This is especially important for people running semi-auto shotguns because each of them has their own unique control system that damn near nobody actually trains on enough.

In HDS I have to teach a bit about home defense, teach a bit about the nature of the threat, teach a bit about the realities of violent crime, teach a bit about how the police ain't showing up, teach a bit about how shotguns work, teach them how to live safely with the gun, teach them about justifiable use of force, and then teach them how to use the gun. And during lunch I try to teach them how not to get shot by responding police. The rest of the time is spent teaching them how to load, manipulate, and shoot the gun and a little bit about using cover. It's 50 pounds of material I'm trying to cram into whatever vessel a client brings to the class. Some folks show up with a dump truck. Some show up with a thimble.

The goal for that class is to prepare someone for the reality of home defense and to successfully articulate why they did what they did in the aftermath of using force.

My Shotgun Skills class presumes someone has already had all that and just goes into greater depth about actually performing with the gun so we start making loud noises after the safety/med brief and we shoot as much as possible. That class is about repetition with coaching...coaching being a rare thing to encounter in training, unfortunately.



No. Short stroking happens, but generally it's happening to people who have not ingrained the correct level of aggressiveness in running a pump gun. The only thing we do gently with a pump shotgun is press the trigger. Everything else is brute force, and as much of it as humanly possible. We have to run the action forcefully to the rear, and then forcefully forward. I run a pump gun with far more aggression now than I did when I first started hunting with one. In class believe it or not, I rarely see someone short stroke a pump gun. When I do it's usually because they are a smaller statured person with an ill-fitting gun. One of the reasons we want to get a shorter stock on a defensive pump is to allow the shooter to get as much muscle on the action as possible. I also take time in class to show folks that the next shell is only released from the magazine when the forend is at the absolute last amount of it's travel.

Focusing on running the action hard and literally showing them that the next shell doesn't pop out until the forend can't move anymore tends to accomplish the feat of taking people who are fairly unfamiliar with defensive shotguns and turning them into people who run the action harder than Ike was on Tina. They're usually pretty tired by the end of the day, but their guns run.

So I'm not super worried about people short stroking a pump gun once they've been introduced to the proper level of aggression with which to run one. When you run one like a viking berserker swinging an axe, short stroking stops becoming a problem. Then the only time I see it is if someone is trying to make me fall in love with how fast they can fire a followup shot with the pump. If they want to make me fall in love I give them the floor and let them try it a time or two, and invariably they make a mistake like short stroking and that's when I tell them that a fast click isn't nearly as impressive as a boom another tenth of a second later. The point gets made and they move on with their life. :cool:



The M4 is a fine shotgun. It's expensive, heavy, has a more limited aftermarket and tends to be pickier about ammunition than the Beretta 1301. That doesn't make it a bad or unreliable shotgun because it's not. Every M4 I've seen (not that there have been scores of them) fed with ammunition it likes runs great.

My personal choice is the Beretta 1301. I own two and I've seen literally hundreds more in class and I can count on one hand the number of problems I've seen with them. I'm about to have to start counting on the other hand because of an increase in issues from more recently produced shotguns I've encountered, but even then a lot of those are the result of some aftermarket parts that don't play well with the gun. (Aftermarket magazine followers, for example, are a terrible idea right now)

The Beretta is lighter, cheaper, and doesn't care much what you feed it. The only ammunition my guns haven't fed are beanbag rounds...and I don't expect it to feed those anyway.

I usually keep a 1301 staged for home defense. Lately because I've been too lazy to load my 1301 back up since they have been doing teaching duty, I've kept an 870 staged for home defense. I spend enough time behind both to not really care which one I'm using.

People often ask what the point of a pump gun is in a world where the 1301 exists.

Pump guns are still relevant defensive tools because I watch people who own 1301 shotguns come to class and for the first few reps stare blankly at their gun as they try to remember which button does what and what order they need to be pressed in. I don't have that problem because I shoot defensive shotguns far more than the typical person by exponential orders of magnitude. Most people are not training or practicing with defensive shotguns much if at all.

I have a significant number of regular clients that treat coming to my class as their training and practice with the shotgun. That whole "recency" thing isn't something they've quite mastered yet. A good many of them have nowhere but the ranges I'm using that they can shoot anything but slugs...so it's understandable. I have clients that spend half the year in a country where they can't have so much as a pen knife, so ingraining skill is harder.

So if you are going to be the kind of person who does a class once or twice a year as your training with the defensive shotgun, you're likely best served with a pump gun.

If you're the kind of person who is going to spend 5 minutes a week on dryfire with your defensive shotgun, you go to the range once a month and work through a couple of boxes of ammo, and you take a class or two a year to use as a test of where you're at...well...you're probably just fine with a semi-auto.

This has been invaluable information, and I'd like to speak more with you on mastering the shotgun. I grew up running 870s and Beretta 1301s with decent effect, but I have no experience in regard to shotguns in a defensive role besides one very specific instance of a home invasion. I need to do some deep thinking about how I want to approach the Shotgun, as a primary shoulder-fired gun or going with my 5.56, but I would really like to learn from you.

[Borderland]

I have pump shotguns. One with 20" barrel. They all stay in my safe with my magazine rifles and everything else I've collected over the years.

As far as shotguns go, I've had single shots, sxs's, O/U's, auto loaders and pumps. I guess that about covers every modern shotgun ever made.

I do recognize the utility however but a rifle wins for applications past 40 yards and a pistol wins for close quarters combat (inside your house). Think knife fight.

That leaves 7-40 yds. for the optimal shotgun range.

Probably the reason for the increasing popularity of SBR's and AR pistols. They can do double duty.

I've never seen anyone at my range with a SD shotgun. The pattern board isn't used and is rusting. I have seen some SBR's and AR pistols however.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here. If you like the concept of a SD shotgun you should buy one. What you feel comfortable with is probably more important than anything else.

My choice for one SD firearm for your home would be a Sig MCX in 300 BLK. When there's lead in the air there's hope. ;)

[Jason M]

Speaking of urban and suburban, I've had an influx of people seeking out shotgun training from Baltimore. Largely people who know very little about firearms apart from they can get their hands on shotguns and nobody blinks an eye.

I think this is going to be a more frequent motivating theme for those seeking first time training. Especially along the I-95 corridor.

[GearFondler]

I have pump shotguns. One with 20" barrel. They all stay in my safe with my magazine rifles and everything else I've collected over the years.

As far as shotguns go, I've had single shots, sxs's, O/U's, auto loaders and pumps. I guess that about covers every modern shotgun ever made.

I do recognize the utility however but a rifle wins for applications past 40 yards and a pistol wins for close quarters combat (inside your house). Think knife fight.

That leaves 7-40 yds. for the optimal shotgun range.

Probably the reason for the increasing popularity of SBR's and AR pistols. They can do double duty.

I've never seen anyone at my range with a SD shotgun. The pattern board isn't used and is rusting. I have seen some SBR's and AR pistols however.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here. If you like the concept of a SD shotgun you should buy one. What you feel comfortable with is probably more important than anything else.

My choice for one SD firearm for your home would be a Sig MCX in 300 BLK. When there's lead in the air there's hope. ;)

You aren't raining on our parade... You do you. But at the risk of sounding like a dick, what is the point your post aside from explaining your opinion that shotguns are irrelevant?
You built your argument using your perceived negatives and ignored everything else.
If I need to pull a trigger it is because I feel there is a life in danger and my number one priority is to stop that threat as quickly as possible. Period. Make That Threat End.
Nothing else available to we civilians is as effective at stopping a threat as the 12g Shotgun. One single pull of the trigger can deliver 9 simultaneous .33 cal rounds into the target. Or in my case, 15 .30 cal pellets using FC #1 Buck.
Sure, damn near any round from 22LR on up can probably end a fight in one shot if you can hit the eye box, but I'm not John Wick and what I can do on a square range is not what I will probably be able to do in a real fight. I want all the advantages I can stack.
Also, I don't live on a ranch. I can't realistically envision a scenario where I would need to shoot anyone beyond my front yard. I don't need an LPVO to protect my family.
Yes, the Sig MCX in 300blk is a very reasonable choice IF you could only have ONE weapon, but that's not the case being discussed. And good luck to most people at finding and affording enough 300blk to practice with it. And less relevant but still a possible issue is the legality of even owning a weapon of that type in many states. And that brace most use is legal for now but will it stay that way?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would like to see the sales breakdowns in ban states like NY. I'm sure it's somewhere. The industry sales show that shotgun purchase numbers have been flat for most years as compared to handguns and ARs.

Given the weird rifle rules for NY, the average Joe or Joan, probably doesn't have the expertise to dig into the compliant rifles. You don't see that many of them in the LGS and the big boxes don't carry them. The Mini-14s are probably an unknown to most.

Thus, as I said, I saw the shotguns flying off the shelves.

In TX, we had a vibrant carbine match environment, not so much here. Some PCC in steel and USPSA but that's 9 mm for the most part.

There is a pretty active kill the clay thingee culture.

[RevolverRob]

TCinVA - Any thoughts re: Semi-auto action familiarity and individuals who shoot clay/skeet/trap/hunt with a gun using the same manual of arms as their defensive guns? Are they more able to perform the manipulations needed when running their defense guns?

[Borderland]

You aren't raining on our parade... You do you. But at the risk of sounding like a dick, what is the point your post aside from explaining your opinion that shotguns are irrelevant?
You built your argument using your perceived negatives and ignored everything else.
If I need to pull a trigger it is because I feel there is a life in danger and my number one priority is to stop that threat as quickly as possible. Period. Make That Threat End.
Nothing else available to we civilians is as effective at stopping a threat as the 12g Shotgun. One single pull of the trigger can deliver 9 simultaneous .33 cal rounds into the target. Or in my case, 15 .30 cal pellets using FC #1 Buck.
Sure, damn near any round from 22LR on up can probably end a fight in one shot if you can hit the eye box, but I'm not John Wick and what I can do on a square range is not what I will probably be able to do in a real fight. I want all the advantages I can stack.
Also, I don't live on a ranch. I can't realistically envision a scenario where I would need to shoot anyone beyond my front yard. I don't need an LPVO to protect my family.
Yes, the Sig MCX in 300blk is a very reasonable choice IF you could only have ONE weapon, but that's not the case being discussed. And good luck to most people at finding and affording enough 300blk to practice with it. And less relevant but still a possible issue is the legality of even owning a weapon of that type in many states. And that brace most use is legal for now but will it stay that way?

I didn't say they were irrelevant. Lots of them have been sold to the SD crowd. I was just pointing out a few advantages of pistols and SBR's. I think if a person decides it's the best platform for SD then they should pursue that. Nothing more.

[SwampDweller]

Great posts! As an aside, when the Covid wave first hit, the LGS was just full of folks buying pump guns. The Turkish guns flew off the shelves. I spent a bit of time in the store doing paper work on transfers and every time, the pump guns were going out the door.

Another aside, the club I've been shooting at decided to due a two gun, shotgun/handgun match. You could just shoot your handgun. I was surprised that quite of few of the 'gamer' crowd didn't have shotguns and said they never fired one! They just shot the match for more practice with their game rig. I ran my 1300 Defender which was the gun I ran in Tom Givens' class. Worked fine.

I've thought about moving on up to the 1301 world, but it's really not that useful for me and other expenses rule. Hit the lottery and I will.

I work at a gun store in FL and saw the same thing. We had literal crowds of people coming in to buy pump shotguns, and most of them were first time gun buyers. I'd never seen a run on pump actions before, usually it's been ARs when an AWB is feared, and usually buyers already owned many firearms including ARs.

[GearFondler]

I didn't say they were irrelevant. Lots of them have been sold to the SD crowd. I was just pointing out a few advantages of pistols and SBR's. I think if a person decides it's the best platform for SD then they should pursue that. Nothing more.It's very possible that I am being a bit defensive here but the "anti-shotgun" rhetoric gets really old after a while. We are literally in the Shotgun subforum and yet you want to tell us why the AR is superior. Do you also spend time in the Revolver forum telling everyone how a Wonder 9 would be a better choice?
Again, I am blasting you right now but in reality my frustration lies with a huge segment of gun owners. It feels like shotguns can't even be mentioned without dudes preaching about how shotguns suck.
Almost universally they list the advantages of the AR and compare them to the disadvantages of a shotgun. This of course ignores the disadvantages of an AR or the advantages of the shotgun but those don't help their argument so they aren't considered.
I don't personally even own an AR platform rifle at the moment. Why? Because my financial resources are limited and between a decent stable of Glocks and my 1301T I feel like my bases are more than covered for any realistic threat I may face. Yeah, I'd love a high-end AR or two but only because I love guns and the AR is a damn fine weapon, and not because I feel like it would offer me a superior SD tool for my situation.

[Bergeron]

My shotguns are now all semi-autos or break actions, but I started out with a pump Mossberg for hunting (I was really convinced back then that a 3.5" chamber with steel-shot was the duck solution of choice), got into clay shooting with it, and had it as my first defensive firearm. The earlier comments about aggressiveness in running the action really hit home for me.

Back when I had that gun, it was my only shotgun, and my centerfire rifle was a 7600 in .35 Whelen, and I never short-stroked either of them, mainly because my internal-intellectual cue to stop running the fore arm back was whenever it slammed to a halt. I was a big, dumb kid and it was fun to beat on a gun that kicked hard anyways. It was certainly slower than the semi-auto or break action guns, but that didn't really matter back when it was my only shotgun.

[Oldherkpilot]

Why would you go for a shotgun over a rifle for defensive purposes?

Its a trap!😁

[vcdgrips]

Mission drives the gear… (PR-RIP)

Outside the house in my urban/suburban environment- Glock 19 or bigger. These days G17 w an RDS.

Inside my house-Mossberg 500 with FC 00 Buck (though at my longest shot range, inside an older (circa 1920s) home, any buck shot is staying on target/inside the house.

IMHO-with my Shotgun 0-15 yards, with FC 00 Buck, if I knew I was facing a deadly threat, I will take the SG for 500 Alex.

[Wonder9]

and a pistol wins for close quarters combat (inside your house). Think knife fight.


94798

Literally where the defensive shotgun is unchallenged.

[TCinVA]

@TCinVA (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=4) - Any thoughts re: Semi-auto action familiarity and individuals who shoot clay/skeet/trap/hunt with a gun using the same manual of arms as their defensive guns? Are they more able to perform the manipulations needed when running their defense guns?

If someone shoots a Beretta or Benelli for sporting clays, wing shooting, or competitive endeavors where they break clay then they are getting behind the gun and working with it on a regular basis. "I shoot a Beretta A400 twice a month for clays" would be music to my ears for someone considering a 1301. That whole "recent and relevant" thing is working in their favor. Similarly if somebody shoots a Benelli to break clay or take birds, an M4 that works identically to their field gun is probably a splendid idea even if it's more expensive than the 1301 because they're already running that set of controls on a regular basis with something on the line.

It's going to be the same as somebody who competes in IDPA or USPSA with the same setup they run for concealed carry. If somebody's hobby work is with a gun that matches the function of the gun they are using for social purposes it's enormously helpful to their ability to run the gun.

I personally don't have much use for Stack-A-Toe pistols, but last week I watched a USPSA Master class shooter running one in Tom Givens' IDC. He has run a 2011 style pistol in competition for years and so he's familiar with the things you need to do to keep such a beast happy. His carry gun is set up almost identically to his competition gun, just with a slightly heavier trigger. For him, that Stack-A-Toe makes all kinds of sense because he's running the same grip, controls, and a very similar optic on his gamer rig. Time on that translates directly to his ability to shoot his chosen carry gun. If somebody can get that kind of synergy on a shotgun that would have all the same benefits.

In that situation I'd probably even leave the factory stock on the gun so it mounts as similarly as possible to the game gun.

[TCinVA]

I do recognize the utility however but a rifle wins for applications past 40 yards and a pistol wins for close quarters combat (inside your house). Think knife fight.


At this point I have had dozens of police officers and more than a dozen people with significant military combat experience in class. The military folks include people who spent almost 20 years in SF, people who did two tours in the Ranger Regiment, and people who spent a lot of years in the USMC and participated in various middle-eastern adventures including the battle of Fallujah, which is the heaviest urban combat US forces have seen since WWII. The police officers have typically been veteran officers who serve on tactical teams and/or firearms instructors. Often they have been in multiple UOF incidents with pistols and rifles.

Out of those dozens of people who have shot a whole metric boatload of people with rifles (especially on the military side) and pistols, there isn't a single one who would willingly choose a pistol over a shotgun for the kind of room distance work the typical citizen faces in a real world defensive situation because a pistol is weak fucking gruel and the threat from one or more bad guys a room's distance away from you is severe. Beyond that, every single one of them was in my shotgun class because boatloads of experience actually shooting deserving motherfuckers with M4's taught them that bad guys needed at least 5 rounds and usually more in the range of 7 to reliably put out of the fight. Or, as some of them observed up close, one round from a shotgun.

Violence inside the confines of the US is not happening at 70 yards except in very, very rare occasions. Especially not in home invasion/home defense scenarios.

I'm a severely atypical person in that I have actually been shot at from more than 200 yards away inside the confines of the United States. Minding my own business talking to a friend in his yard, someone drove by and emptied a magazine from a 1911 right at us.

Even if I had a rifle on me at the time...which I did not because nobody who isn't on a SWAT team actually has a rifle on their person inside populated areas of the US...returning fire would have likely resulted in facing serious legal trouble because it's damned difficult to justify shooting someone at that kind of rifle distance even though there was clear physical evidence I had actually been shot at. It's incredibly difficult for me to argue immediate unavoidable jeopardy from a guy winging pistol shots at me from more than 200 yards away.

The vast majority of real world uses of a firearm...especially in home defense...are happening at distances where a shotgun is damn near the proverbial hammer of fucking Thor when applied against a lethal threat. Its ability to reliably put an end to the hostile actions of a threat at the distances where violence typically occurs is unmatched by any other weapon you can hold in your hands.

If you believe a rifle does the same things, you're simply wrong.

To quote DocGKR posted on this very forum:



Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon-- this can be a significant advantage during urban entry missions and high risk warrant service in closely confined settings.


To quote Tom Givens, posted on this very forum:




The carbine is not equal to a shotgun in close range damage. Many top tier carbine instructors now teach a 5-7 round burst at close quarters to make up for the lackluster effect of 1 ball round on determined targets. It takes longer to fire 5-7 rounds from a carbine than to fire 8-9 pellets of 00 in one shot. If you fire 5-7 rounds from your carbine per target, it effectively holds no more ammo than a 5-6 round shotgun.

I am personally familiar with 3 shootings in this area where 1 stray pellet of 00 per incident killed a bystander, crippled a police officer, and killed a deputy sheriff in three shootings. That's just in this metro area. That's why we are somewhat concerned about large patterns.


What shotguns do better than anything else we have access to is turn motherfuckers off at the kind of ranges where violence typically happens. This is a significant advantage to someone who is working alone and is outnumbered by bad guys, especially in a confined space where opportunities for maneuver are limited.

If there is ever a small group of people who want to kill me, I pray to God above they are fucking stupid enough to try and come get me inside a structure I'm familiar with when I have a 12 gauge handy.

[Borderland]

A better assessment for your home defense needs might be found here.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-home-defense-gun/

Don't go all Shotgun Joe on me here. It ain't that simple.

[Borderland]

94798

Literally where the defensive shotgun is unchallenged.

Really? Care to give us some examples of home defense shootings? I think you'll find that it's done with pistols/revolvers but I'm open to consider anything you might find.

[WobblyPossum]

Really? Care to give us some examples of home defense shootings? I think you'll find that it's done with pistols/revolvers but I'm open to consider anything you might find.

I’m not sure what kind of examples you’re looking for because I’m not 100% sure what you’re asking. Are you asking about what’s more common or what’s more effective? If they’re examples of what’s more terminally effective, just look at any news story about anyone who was shot with a handgun and lived. Talk to any ER nurse or doctor in a busy metro area about how many people they see on a regular basis who have been shot with handguns and are easy to treat and how many of them are discharged within 24 hours. Ask any police officer who has responded to a call about people shot with handguns or any officer who was shot and continued to fight. Handguns just aren’t very effective at actually putting people down and I can’t imagine anyone seriously arguing they’re more effective than either type of long gun and actually believing what they’re saying. Now ask the same folks about incidents where people have been shot with a long gun. You’ll find that people who take peripheral hits aren’t physiologically stopped with whatever they’ve been shot with. You’ll also find that when people take solid upper thoracic hits with rifles or shotguns, they’re quite often put down for the count. Check out your stack of NRA magazines and look at the armed citizen column. You’ll likely find that the stories in which the defender used a long gun result in dead bad guys more often than the ones in which the defender shot someone with a handgun. Those stories quite often end with someone going to the hospital and the police arresting them after they’re discharged.

Handgun uses are definitely more common than long gun uses. You’ll find more examples of handguns used in shootings than any other type of firearm because that’s what people are carrying to commit crimes, respond to crimes, or defend themselves from crimes. Criminals tend to use handguns because they’re easier to conceal, although AR and AK pistols are becoming increasingly common. Good guys tend to use handguns because that’s what they have on them when they’re out and about, whether that’s the police or private citizens. The military is probably the only context in which long guns are used more often than handguns when it comes to shooting people.

If you’re talking about effectiveness within an ECQC kind of grappling affair where two people are fighting over a gun, it might be easier to position your handgun in a manner to shoot the bad guy than if you’re fighting them over a long gun.

[Borderland]

I’m not sure what kind of examples you’re looking for because I’m not 100% sure what you’re asking. Are you asking about what’s more common or what’s more effective? If they’re examples of what’s more terminally effective, just look at any news story about anyone who was shot with a handgun and lived. Talk to any ER nurse or doctor in a busy metro area about how many people they see on a regular basis who have been shot with handguns and are easy to treat and how many of them are discharged within 24 hours. Ask any police officer who has responded to a call about people shot with handguns or any officer who was shot and continued to fight. Handguns just aren’t very effective at actually putting people down and I can’t imagine anyone seriously arguing they’re more effective than either type of long gun and actually believing what they’re saying. Now ask the same folks about incidents where people have been shot with a long gun. You’ll find that people who take peripheral hits aren’t physiologically stopped with whatever they’ve been shot with. You’ll also find that when people take solid upper thoracic hits with rifles or shotguns, they’re quite often put down for the count. Check out your stack of NRA magazines and look at the armed citizen column. You’ll likely find that the stories in which the defender used a long gun result in dead bad guys more often than the ones in which the defender shot someone with a handgun. Those stories quite often end with someone going to the hospital and the police arresting them after they’re discharged.

Handgun uses are definitely more common than long gun uses. You’ll find more examples of handguns used in shootings than any other type of firearm because that’s what people are carrying to commit crimes, respond to crimes, or defend themselves from crimes. Criminals tend to use handguns because they’re easier to conceal, although AR and AK pistols are becoming increasingly common. Good guys tend to use handguns because that’s what they have on them when they’re out and about, whether that’s the police or private citizens. The military is probably the only context in which long guns are used more often than handguns when it comes to shooting people.

If you’re talking about effectiveness within an ECQC kind of grappling affair where two people are fighting over a gun, it might be easier to position your handgun in a manner to shoot the bad guy than if you’re fighting them over a long gun.

You didn't cite any statistics of home defense shootings. I'm looking for the firearms used in home defense shootings. That simple. Was it a rifle, a shotgun or a pistol? That information may not be available but I would still propose that it matters in home defense shootings and what people regard as a home defense firearm. That's what I am questioning here. What do people actually use in home defense shootings?

I understand the value of each platform. I'm not trying to put one over the other. I have all three. I can choose any of those for my particular needs.

[WobblyPossum]

You didn't cite any statistics of home defense shootings. I'm looking for the firearms used in home defense shootings. That simple. Was it a rifle, a shotgun or a pistol? That information may not be available but I would still propose that it matters in home defense shootings and what people regard as a home defense firearm. That's what I am questioning here. What do people actually use in home defense shootings?

I understand the value of each platform. I'm not trying to put one over the other. I have all three. I can choose any of those for my particular needs.

I don’t really care what most people use or prefer. Most gun owners have no training or experience and no clue what they’re doing. I only care about what knowledgeable and experienced people have to say because not all opinions are created equal.

[Hambo]

Really? Care to give us some examples of home defense shootings? I think you'll find that it's done with pistols/revolvers but I'm open to consider anything you might find.

Yo, we're talking to a guy who wants a shotgun, not arguing what we personally think is best. I just posted this elsewhere, but the reason most HD shootings involve a handgun is because it's what people have, not because they have a plan. If you believe gross data of untrained people who often use suboptimal caliber handguns is a basis for best practice, go for it.

[willie]

The person who has fired a 22 target pistol extensively might be better off using it than they would trying to operate an unfamiliar rifle or shotgun under stress. I said unfamiliar because the term applies to weapons like an AR or 590 or 870 bought and then placed behind a door. I'm not implying that a .22 anything is sufficient or that using a handgun beats using a long gun. The fact that shotguns are passé as in no longer trendy does not negate their usefulness in home defense.

[Dorsai]

An anecdotal story should not be taken as general experience or a reasonable expectation. Often they are remembered not because they are/were the norm, but because they stood out as an exception to the rule. So, a couple of stories about the .22LR and it's appropriate use.

I grew up in Alaska and there were multiple examples of people killing moose and bear with a .22LR. Never a defensive situation, always a deliberate hunting situation. The hunter used a .22 because that was what he had, not because it was a superior choice to other calibers or rifles. I shouldn't say just hunter, one I remember was a teenager who was the worst sort. He just wanted to kill and shot a moose multiple times with a .22 rifle. The moose died of internal bleeding, but it wasn't hunting and personally, I thought he deserved the same fate as the moose. But another instance was a native who deliberately hunted a bear with a .22lr. He fired a single shot into the lung and waited. The bear wasn't startled by the sound of the shot and the bullet was just a sting. But after a couple of hours he keeled over and died. The important context was that it wasn't defensive use and it took a long time to die.

The other one that comes to mind was defensive use and death was immediate, and there are several lessons. The Mau Mau rebellion in Kenya was 1952-1960. At some point in that time, the Mau Mau were running around killing white ranchers and so the police/constabulary/army went out to the outlying ranches to gather up scattered families and bring them back to safety. In one instance, they headed to a ranch where they knew the house wife was normally alone during the day while her husband and sons were out working the ranch. As they constabulary approached the ranch house, they encountered dead Mau Mau, all with a single, small bullet hole in the forehead. They found the woman alive and well and evacuated her. And to borrow from Paul Harvey, the rest of the story, which is why this is important. The housewife, after doing her work would entertain herself with her Colt Woodsman .22 pistol by shooting at tree leaves around the house, shooting them off the branches. When the Mau Mau showed up, she had the skills to head shoot them when they became visible because she had so much practice shooting at small targets and having to estimate and compensate for the range.

Can and have a .22lr been used effectively? Yes, with a lot of practice and it was the only available option. Is it recommended? Not if you have better choices. Those two answers apply to just about everything. Practice, a lot, and use the best available option. So it helps to choose the best option first, and STILL practice.

[Wonder9]

Really? Care to give us some examples of home defense shootings? I think you'll find that it's done with pistols/revolvers but I'm open to consider anything you might find.

I'm speaking on a terminal ballistics level. Absolutely no reason to willingly pick a service pistol over shotgun (or rifle).

Even in tight quarters, the stock gives a physical advantage for control and accuracy.

[RevolverRob]

Claude Werner undertook a study a few years ago - using the NRA's "The Armed Citizen" column to accumulate statistics.

Handguns were the dominant to of choice: https://tacticalprofessor.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/tac-5-year-w-tables.pdf

However, as Mr. Werner noted in his Conclusions:

"2) Mindset of the potential victim was far more important than the type of weapon used. All the victims were willing to fight their opponents in order to survive. Although not common, in some cases bridge weapons, such as pens, were used to gain time to access the firearm."

Given what we have heard time and time again from those with extensive homicide investigation experience and those who have extensive experience in training defensive shooters - it is almost always the ability to access and subsequently the willingness to use the firearm that makes the difference.

That said, we can also see that the vast majority of incidents where there was deployment and firing of a shotgun results in a win for the deployer. To get an L in a shotgun-based gunfight it seems you have to not be able to deploy, not be willing to fire, or miss.

By contrast you can add, "Limited terminal efficacy." To the reasons you take an L in a gunfight when you fight with pistol or rifle. Is it likely? No. It's fourth on the list for a reason. But it's worth thinking about.

[Lost River]

I do recognize the utility however but a rifle wins for applications past 40 yards and a pistol wins for close quarters combat (inside your house). Think knife fight.




It has already been explained to you how incredibly retarded that statement is.

Nobody, and I mean not one single professional organization is going to advocate what you posted above. Shotguns, using proper ammunition drop bad guys decisively when used within their limits. Pistols, not so much.



https://i.imgur.com/wNgcQnj.gif

[Borderland]

I'm speaking on a terminal ballistics level. Absolutely no reason to willingly pick a service pistol over shotgun (or rifle).

Even in tight quarters, the stock gives a physical advantage for control and accuracy.

You bet cha. Ever wonder why the Po Po have retention holsters? It isn't because they got the drop on an assailant.

I'm done here. Buy a shotgun if you feel compelled. I never said you shouldn't.

[TCinVA]

This has been invaluable information, and I'd like to speak more with you on mastering the shotgun. I grew up running 870s and Beretta 1301s with decent effect, but I have no experience in regard to shotguns in a defensive role besides one very specific instance of a home invasion. I need to do some deep thinking about how I want to approach the Shotgun, as a primary shoulder-fired gun or going with my 5.56, but I would really like to learn from you.

Well, I do a lot of teaching in the Northern Virginia and Western PA area.

[TCinVA]

Ever wonder why the Po Po have retention holsters?

I don't have to wonder.

This is another example of things people think they know, but don't really.

Retention holsters evolved as a result of officers being killed with their own weapons. Digging into exactly how those incidents went down, however, showed that those officers typically had their weapons out of the holster when they lost control of the weapon.


https://youtu.be/xkci3wFr-Gk

A retention holster accomplishes precisely zero in that sort of situation.

If we go back in time and look at incidents where officers were killed with their own weapons without having it in their hands, we see terrible equipment like the Audley Safety Holster in use. New York, for example, had lots of Audley holsters in use by police officers and they had a real tendency to eject handguns when there was a fight (https://www.nytimes.com/1984/06/16/nyregion/officer-is-killed-with-his-own-gun.html). Not coincidentally, NY had a very high rate of officers killed with their own weapons.

Of course, Audley wasn't the only popular holster gimmick out there that had a tendency to jettison a sidearm in a bad moment. There were a plethora of bad gimmicky holsters throughout policing in the US:


https://youtu.be/j-TUlpV3-i8

Misunderstanding the actual problem results in "solutions" that don't solve things.

So in an effort to cure a problem that was largely explained by bad holsters and having guns out of the holster at inappropriate times, the solution was a holster that officers struggle to draw a gun from in the first place...which just means they get the gun out of the holster even earlier because they have no confidence they can rapidly present the gun from the holster for real since it's not something they've been meaningfully trained to do and it's not something they've practiced. Because the actual issue wasn't properly understood, a silly "solution" got adopted.

Most instances of armed self defense are resolved merely by presenting a firearm of any sort. That is sufficient to convince the criminal actors to seek their entertainment elsewhere. But even so, we do not recommend people carry a derringer. I can find instances of home defense where a homeowner succeeded by bludgeoning a criminal with an unloaded weapon. That does not make doing so a winning strategy. Bad guys may break off an attack if you present a single shot Cricket. Then again they may press an attack until they're all dead. You have no idea which you're going to get until it's too late, so we assume the need to force the criminal asshole to stop whatever it is they are doing that's making you get a lethal weapon in your hands.

We spend time teaching people how to efficiently present a weapon and get anatomically useful hits because that's what it takes to force a violent criminal to stop trying to kill you or someone you care about. We teach a rapid succession of anatomically useful shots from pistols and rifles because lots of experience shooting people with handguns and rifles at close range has made it clear that getting the intended result of physiological incapacitation...meaning the bad guy is physically unable to continue trying to kill you or someone you care about...requires multiple applications.

Or you can shoot them once with a properly selected buckshot round and get the intended result.

And that's why people choose shotguns, and that's why it's pants-on-head levels of silly to insist that a pistol is better in close quarters. ECQC level scrums are thankfully fairly rare for typical civilian self defense and generally happen when someone goes and hunts for the bad guy in the structure and then literally runs into the bad guy in the effort. There are some fairly simple techniques that can be used to prevent a weapon grab with a long gun. They are especially potent with a shotgun because contact wounds with shotguns are sufficiently traumatic to essentially amputate whatever is in front of it. If you have any reasonable hold on the shotgun and it's close to your body you can get the muzzle on the other dude fairly easily. Even if the gun is oriented down, it takes relatively little strength to move the gun toward the other guy's calf or knee, and then press the trigger. And I guarantee he will find it much more difficult to continue the fight when his lower leg is essentially gone.

Reasoned discussion about the best defensive option for a particular situation is fine, but I'm completely over dealing with fudd-lore or tacti-bro bullshit on the defensive shotgun. Dipshit fudds think you don't have to aim them and you should load them with birdshot. Tacti-bro bullshit holds that rifles do everything better so just buy one of those. Neither are remotely close to being true and if someone comes into this forum and starts slinging that shit around, they're likely to get smacked upside the head with a curt explanation of reality.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just for some irrelevant hilarity, when the discussion is about a Cricket, it isn't this one: https://meninblack.fandom.com/wiki/Noisy_Cricket

I think this a great discussion and influencing the way I think about the two long guns I have for home SD. Much to think about. Thanks for TCinVA's contribution!!

[kwb377]

Ever wonder why the Po Po have retention holsters?

And you know slings are like retention holsters for long guns, right? Not only do they give you a place to store the weapon when you need to use your hands for something else, they help in retaining the weapon in your possession.

I had several instances using a shotgun/subgun/rifle on entries and searches when someone decided it was a good idea to put their hands on my long gun. Some were a little more enthusiastic than others, but none were to the level that I felt pulling the trigger was necessary and the situation couldn't be resolved with physical persuasion. A muzzle jab to the sternum (and to the forehead in one case) or buttstroke to the jaw is very effective in conveying to someone "This is mine!" and ending their desire to contest ownership.

At one point @ 20 years ago or so, I had a Yankee Hill Phantom flash hider (the one with the sharp tines on the end) on my entry 10.5" M16. The guy that took that jab probably still has an odd-looking circular scar in the center of his chest and a cool story to this day. (Shortly after, I removed it after skewering my own calf with it while dropping to a kneeling position with a handgun with the rifle slung...Doh!).

Long story short...I've found it much easier to retain a long gun during weapon-retention scenarios (both actual and training) than it is to retain a handgun.

[Rex G]

My wife was a Forensic Investigator for the Medical Examiner, in Harris County, Texas, for 2+ decades. This means “death scene investigator,” not confined to a morgue, though I would hate to see what she could do with an autopsy knife. Blood Spatter Evidence is a science, enabling a skilled investigator to see how far, and how fast, the decedent moved, after being hit. Most of geographically-huge Houston lies within geographically-huge Harris County. IOW, she had a statistically significant sample size of scenes that she personally investigated. She also has an “M.D.” after her name, if she cares to use it. Y’all can guess what type of weapon she owns, that she calls “Baby.” Folks do not move, very far, after taking a solid hit from a shotgun.

She thoroughly approves that I keep a Benelli M2 positioned as the primary home defense firearm.

Rifles have their places/roles. Nothing wrong with that. Had I not been a certified “carbine unit,” for a while, working for a PD, I probably would not have bought into the AR/M4 system. Having bought into the AR/M4 system, I do maintain possession and familiarity. When actually feeling a need to tote a rifle, such as while on wooded land, owned by my wife’s family, it is usually a .308 Browning BLR, a box-mag-fed lever-action rifle. But, really, I usually take a Benelli M2, rather than a rifle. This is the wet, green, thickly-vegetated part of Texas.

Edited to add: “Baby” is a Remington 870, with a Surefire weapon-light fore-end.

[Lon]

IOW, she had a statistically significant sample size of scenes that she personally investigated. She also has an “M.D.” after her name, if she cares to use it. Y’all can guess what type of weapon she owns, that she calls “Baby.” Folks do not move, very far, after taking a solid hit from a shotgun.

This is the kind of wisdom people should pay attention to.

[03RN]

5 rounds in 4 sec. First found in 1.1 sec.
Even the miss to the c zone would have dropped the fucker ime.

https://youtu.be/xNFufQDV8xg
0.7 second split average with full power slugs

I'll take that over any service caliber handgun.

[Oldherkpilot]

5 rounds in 4 sec. First found in 1.1 sec.
Even the miss to the c zone would have dropped the fucker ime.

https://youtu.be/xNFufQDV8xg
0.7 second split average.

I'll take that over any service caliber handgun.

It's guys like you who kill everybody in da streetz!😁

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

03RN nice work w/ the Mossy & is that an optic on top & if so which one?

[SwampDweller]

TCinVA
What kind of practice loads do you recommend? Which seems to be the most reliable in terms of the ammunition itself, not the gun. I'm leaning towards a 590A1.

[TCinVA]

@TCinVA (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=4)
What kind of practice loads do you recommend? Which seems to be the most reliable in terms of the ammunition itself, not the gun. I'm leaning towards a 590A1.

At the moment Federal probably has the highest quality control of the major manufacturers.

I've run through about 1,000 shells of their Top Gun birdshot and I've seen clients shoot cases more worth of the stuff and it's run reliably in semi-autos and pumps alike. So that's a good bulk practice ammo.

[TCinVA]

This series of photos is from an attempted home invasion in Puerto Rico. Four armed assailants bailed out of the truck behind them only to be immediately engaged by the farmer they were showing up to rob.

The farmer was armed with a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot.

94946

94947

Three of the four were dropped where they stood, almost on top of one another. The fourth was wounded and fled only to later die in a shootout with the police. Read that again: The fourth chose death instead of arrest, but he was put to flight when his plan for a criminal assault was met by instantaneously effective gunfire that killed his four accomplices deader than fried chicken right in front of him.

Inside the ammunition capacity of a typical shotgun without the duck hunting limiter, a farmer bodied 3/4 of an experienced criminal crew, wounded the fourth and scared him so shitless he ran away as fast as he could. And as the position of the bodies above shows, this happened in a very, very short period of time.

When I talk about the shotgun as a force multiplier, this is what I mean. That farmer was outnumbered, outgunned, and it didn't matter because he was able to lay so much damage in such a brief period of time that more guys and more guns didn't matter.

When I say that the shotgun is an especially potent force multiplier for the person who is by himself against superior odds, this is exactly what I mean.

[SwampDweller]

This series of photos is from an attempted home invasion in Puerto Rico. Four armed assailants bailed out of the truck behind them only to be immediately engaged by the farmer they were showing up to rob.

The farmer was armed with a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot.

94946

94947

Three of the four were dropped where they stood, almost on top of one another. The fourth was wounded and fled only to later die in a shootout with the police. Read that again: The fourth chose death instead of arrest, but he was put to flight when his plan for a criminal assault was met by instantaneously effective gunfire that killed his four accomplices deader than fried chicken right in front of him.

Inside the ammunition capacity of a typical shotgun without the duck hunting limiter, a farmer bodied 3/4 of an experienced criminal crew, wounded the fourth and scared him so shitless he ran away as fast as he could. And as the position of the bodies above shows, this happened in a very, very short period of time.

When I talk about the shotgun as a force multiplier, this is what I mean. That farmer was outnumbered, outgunned, and it didn't matter because he was able to lay so much damage in such a brief period of time that more guys and more guns didn't matter.

When I say that the shotgun is an especially potent force multiplier for the person who is by himself against superior odds, this is exactly what I mean.
That's quite impressive damage. I wonder if the farmer was using a pump or an autoloader.

[SwampDweller]

At the moment Federal probably has the highest quality control of the major manufacturers.

I've run through about 1,000 shells of their Top Gun birdshot and I've seen clients shoot cases more worth of the stuff and it's run reliably in semi-autos and pumps alike. So that's a good bulk practice ammo.

Thanks, Federal Top Gun is exactly what I was thinking.

Also, do you see any difference in reliability/durability between the Mossberg 500 and the 590A1? I'm leaning towards the 590A1, but I do like that with the 500 I could put a longer barrel on it to go hunting, shoot trap, etc...

[RevolverRob]

That's quite impressive damage. I wonder if the farmer was using a pump or an autoloader.

Doesn't much matter one way or the other. The important thing with all shotguns is to set it up to allow you to get decisive hits. When we review shotgun gun-fights they are usually one-sides affairs. But they become two sided when you don't hit the target.


Thanks, Federal Top Gun is exactly what I was thinking.

Also, do you see any difference in reliability/durability between the Mossberg 500 and the 590A1? I'm leaning towards the 590A1, but I do like that with the 500 I could put a longer barrel on it to go hunting, shoot trap, etc...

I prefer the ghost rings on the 590A1 and that would be my deciding factor. Bead sights suck for defensive shooting.

[TCinVA]

Thanks, Federal Top Gun is exactly what I was thinking.

Also, do you see any difference in reliability/durability between the Mossberg 500 and the 590A1? I'm leaning towards the 590A1, but I do like that with the 500 I could put a longer barrel on it to go hunting, shoot trap, etc...

The 590A1 is built differently. The biggest advantage to the 590A1 is that you can replace the magazine spring without removing the entire magazine tube. The 500 requires removing the entire magazine tube to install a new magazine spring and/or follower. This involves heating the receiver to break the thread locking compound they use, then unscrewing the thin, fragile magazine tube from the receiver, replacing the innards, cleaning up the threads on both ends and re-installing. What this means is that almost zero of the Mossberg 500's you see in the wild have ever had a magazine spring replaced.

The 590A1 was made to military contract specs which wanted that procedure to be easier and doable in the field. The 590A1 also has a thicker barrel which is supposed to help it deliver more reliably good patterns with buckshot.

If you want a shotgun that easily goes from defensive duty to field duty by just changing the barrel and installing a hunting limiter, the 870 is a little better suited for that.



I prefer the ghost rings on the 590A1 and that would be my deciding factor. Bead sights suck for defensive shooting.

Amen.

[SwampDweller]

The 590A1 is built differently. The biggest advantage to the 590A1 is that you can replace the magazine spring without removing the entire magazine tube. The 500 requires removing the entire magazine tube to install a new magazine spring and/or follower. This involves heating the receiver to break the thread locking compound they use, then unscrewing the thin, fragile magazine tube from the receiver, replacing the innards, cleaning up the threads on both ends and re-installing. What this means is that almost zero of the Mossberg 500's you see in the wild have ever had a magazine spring replaced.

The 590A1 was made to military contract specs which wanted that procedure to be easier and doable in the field. The 590A1 also has a thicker barrel which is supposed to help it deliver more reliably good patterns with buckshot.

If you want a shotgun that easily goes from defensive duty to field duty by just changing the barrel and installing a hunting limiter, the 870 is a little better suited for that.



Amen.

I'm rather familiar with the Remington 870 as I've been shooting them since I was a kid. However, I don't have much faith in modern day Remingtons out of the factory, particularly the Express series (and I'm not aware of any 870Ps or Wingmasters being in new production or if they're even made as well as the old ones). If it weren't for that, I'd just order an 870 and be done with it. Let me know if this is off base, but I gather that a modern Mossberg 590A1 is a better roll of the dice on not getting a lemon than it is on a modern 870.

I do have my dad's old Wingmaster that is very nice, but it's more of a family heirloom nowadays.

What's the best way to go about getting a new Remington 870 that's good to go? Whether new production or New Old Stock old production. I'm leery of going with a police trade in or something, as you can never truly know the history.

[Chuck Whitlock]

What's the best way to go about getting a new Remington 870 that's good to go? Whether new production or New Old Stock old production. I'm leery of going with a police trade in or something, as you can never truly know the history.

Does it have to be new or NOS?

If not, and you are just leery of the history, buy a beater one at a pawn shop and send it to Wilson for their Remington Steal package.

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/shotgun-customization/#remingtonsteal

[LHS]

I'm rather familiar with the Remington 870 as I've been shooting them since I was a kid. However, I don't have much faith in modern day Remingtons out of the factory, particularly the Express series (and I'm not aware of any 870Ps or Wingmasters being in new production or if they're even made as well as the old ones). If it weren't for that, I'd just order an 870 and be done with it. Let me know if this is off base, but I gather that a modern Mossberg 590A1 is a better roll of the dice on not getting a lemon than it is on a modern 870.

I do have my dad's old Wingmaster that is very nice, but it's more of a family heirloom nowadays.

What's the best way to go about getting a new Remington 870 that's good to go? Whether new production or New Old Stock old production. I'm leery of going with a police trade in or something, as you can never truly know the history.

FWIW, the new production 870s I've seen have been better built (and QC'd) than the Freedom Group crap of the last 20 years. They're not as nice as the old-school Vibrahoned-receiver guns with chromed bolts, but they are a step up from the bad days and they seem to work.

[TCinVA]

I'm rather familiar with the Remington 870 as I've been shooting them since I was a kid. However, I don't have much faith in modern day Remingtons out of the factory, particularly the Express series (and I'm not aware of any 870Ps or Wingmasters being in new production or if they're even made as well as the old ones). If it weren't for that, I'd just order an 870 and be done with it. Let me know if this is off base, but I gather that a modern Mossberg 590A1 is a better roll of the dice on not getting a lemon than it is on a modern 870.


If I had to buy a brand new shotgun for defensive use today that had proper sights (because beads suck), I'd buy the 590.

I'm not afraid of police turn-in guns because I can work on them, I have some spare parts lying around, and I know I can send one to Josh at Cotton Branch Customs or Cody at Vang Comp and get whatever they need done. But I'm partial to 870's over Mossbergs.

In fact, I bought a police trade-in 870 from Summit Gunbroker just this week. It will need a new magazine spring but the stuff in the trigger plate should still work just fine as it looks like it spent most of its life in a rack rather than being used heavily.



What's the best way to go about getting a new Remington 870 that's good to go? Whether new production or New Old Stock old production. I'm leery of going with a police trade in or something, as you can never truly know the history.

I've seen a couple of new production 870's in class. They work pretty good and haven't exhibited sticky chambers or similar problems that I saw prior to the shutdown. They aren't anything close to the smoothness of an older Wingmaster or first generation Express, but they've been pretty solid. My big beef with the new ones is I've never seen one with rifle sights and I loathe a bead on a defensive shotgun.

I've never had a problem finding older Wingmasters relatively inexpensively. An older Wingmaster you find cheap can be pretty easily sent to somebody like Cotton Branch and turned into one hell of a nice defensive shotgun. I've seen them "tactical" up a Winchester model 12 with great effect so I have every confidence they could chop a barrel and put some nice sights on the gun for you and modify the stock to boot. If you get the Wingmaster cheap enough it can be competitive with the 590 purchase and you have the assurance of knowing the gun will run right when you get it back from them.

But, again...that's me.

[Brian T]

However, I don't have much faith in modern day Remingtons out of the factory, particularly the Express series (and I'm not aware of any 870Ps or Wingmasters being in new production or if they're even made as well as the old ones). If it weren't for that, I'd just order an 870 and be done with it. Let me know if this is off base, but I gather that a modern Mossberg 590A1 is a better roll of the dice on not getting a lemon than it is on a modern 870.

I do have my dad's old Wingmaster that is very nice, but it's more of a family heirloom nowadays.

What's the best way to go about getting a new Remington 870 that's good to go? Whether new production or New Old Stock old production. I'm leery of going with a police trade in or something, as you can never truly know the history.

The newer Fieldmasters and Tacticals arent bad. They are not Express Magnums, in fact delete that from your memory as RemArms has said they will NEVER make Expresses again. The Fieldmaster is supposed to dovetail somewhere between a Wingmaster and an Express. I have had the opportunity to handle a few, and I think they do exactly that. They aren't as smoooooooth as a Wingmaster, but they are way smoother than the old EMs. If I needed 870s I'd buy them.

I am not afraid of police trade-ins or pawn shop guns. In fact that is all I buy (I like that chrome bolt, very cosmopolitan). I have done armorer work in the past, so I am comfortable wading through the depths of a Remington shotgun. I dont consider them to be hard to work on, but YMMV. Change your springs. Springs are cheap. Change your damned springs! Maybe, maybe a pair shell latches on stand by. I'd say spend no more than $350 on a WM. There's millions of them. Hell, my favorite gauge is my first year of production 870 (by default a WM), that has survived a few classes and a handful of rounds at Thunderstick. I am thinking of SBS'ing it.

[TCinVA]

I wholeheartedly believe in changing springs.

Trouble is that some of the springs in the trigger plate are hard to find right now. Sear spring and carrier dog spring in particular seem to be damned difficult to find, at least the police spec springs.

[RevolverRob]

I know I can send one to Josh at Cotton Branch Customs or Cody at Vang Comp and get whatever they need done. But I'm partial to 870's over Mossbergs.

An older Wingmaster you find cheap can be pretty easily sent to somebody like Cotton Branch and turned into one hell of a nice defensive shotgun. I've seen them "tactical" up a Winchester model 12 with great effect so I have every confidence they could chop a barrel and put some nice sights on the gun for you and modify the stock to boot.

Oof...I wish you hadn't mentioned them. I went and looked them up, because I hadn't heard of them. And aye-aye-aye...they do some nice work...This Model 12 gives me a bad case of 'wants'.

p/CAEPbhrp7Pg

[BK14]

This series of photos is from an attempted home invasion in Puerto Rico. Four armed assailants bailed out of the truck behind them only to be immediately engaged by the farmer they were showing up to rob.

The farmer was armed with a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot.

94946

94947

Three of the four were dropped where they stood, almost on top of one another. The fourth was wounded and fled only to later die in a shootout with the police. Read that again: The fourth chose death instead of arrest, but he was put to flight when his plan for a criminal assault was met by instantaneously effective gunfire that killed his four accomplices deader than fried chicken right in front of him.

Inside the ammunition capacity of a typical shotgun without the duck hunting limiter, a farmer bodied 3/4 of an experienced criminal crew, wounded the fourth and scared him so shitless he ran away as fast as he could. And as the position of the bodies above shows, this happened in a very, very short period of time.

When I talk about the shotgun as a force multiplier, this is what I mean. That farmer was outnumbered, outgunned, and it didn't matter because he was able to lay so much damage in such a brief period of time that more guys and more guns didn't matter.

When I say that the shotgun is an especially potent force multiplier for the person who is by himself against superior odds, this is exactly what I mean.

Not arguing the validity of the story. Just curious. Top left photo shows a body to the left of the truck, then there are three more on the lower photos. 4 bodies total. Was there a 5th that fled, or was the 4th killed in the same location?

[RevolverRob]

Not arguing the validity of the story. Just curious. Top left photo shows a body to the left of the truck, then there are three more on the lower photos. 4 bodies total. Was there a 5th that fled, or was the 4th killed in the same location?

Some things are moved around in the photos. You see a shotgun in one pic laying between the dudes and not in another. The blackshirt guy is face up with a pistol next to him, then face down by the truck in Pic 1. I don't want to criticize Puerto Rican police...but they aren't exactly operating to the same crime scene investigation standards that we do here. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the fourth body was dumped on the lawn to make it easier for the wagon to come drag all four of them away.

Also, I suspect the shotgun in the pic is the farmer's gun - looks like an 870 or 590, kind of hard to tell from the pics.

[BK14]

Some things are moved around in the photos. You see a shotgun in one pic laying between the dudes and not in another. The blackshirt guy is face up with a pistol next to him, then face down by the truck in Pic 1. I don't want to criticize Puerto Rican police...but they aren't exactly operating to the same crime scene investigation standards that we do here. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the fourth body was dumped on the lawn to make it easier for the wagon to come drag all four of them away.

Also, I suspect the shotgun in the pic is the farmer's gun - looks like an 870 or 590, kind of hard to tell from the pics.

Oh absolutely. I suspected something like that as well. I’m just curious if there’s a known answer.

[TCinVA]

Not arguing the validity of the story. Just curious. Top left photo shows a body to the left of the truck, then there are three more on the lower photos. 4 bodies total. Was there a 5th that fled, or was the 4th killed in the same location?

When I saw the story it was 4 total robbers, 1 ran off and shot it out with the police unsuccessfully.

I'm guessing they brought him back to the scene with the other three because why make two trips.

When you've got four dead guys with criminal records a mile long all with guns on property they had no business being on, ain't much investigatin' to do. It's more of a cleanup operation.

[SwampDweller]

Does it have to be new or NOS?

If not, and you are just leery of the history, buy a beater one at a pawn shop and send it to Wilson for their Remington Steal package.

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/shotgun-customization/#remingtonsteal

I'd prefer it, although it does look like I found a like-new one on gunbroker being sold by someone who bought it from a collector and said it appears unfired. I could send that off and have it made into a good defensive shotgun.

[SwampDweller]

If I had to buy a brand new shotgun for defensive use today that had proper sights (because beads suck), I'd buy the 590.

I'm not afraid of police turn-in guns because I can work on them, I have some spare parts lying around, and I know I can send one to Josh at Cotton Branch Customs or Cody at Vang Comp and get whatever they need done. But I'm partial to 870's over Mossbergs.

In fact, I bought a police trade-in 870 from Summit Gunbroker just this week. It will need a new magazine spring but the stuff in the trigger plate should still work just fine as it looks like it spent most of its life in a rack rather than being used heavily.



I've seen a couple of new production 870's in class. They work pretty good and haven't exhibited sticky chambers or similar problems that I saw prior to the shutdown. They aren't anything close to the smoothness of an older Wingmaster or first generation Express, but they've been pretty solid. My big beef with the new ones is I've never seen one with rifle sights and I loathe a bead on a defensive shotgun.

I've never had a problem finding older Wingmasters relatively inexpensively. An older Wingmaster you find cheap can be pretty easily sent to somebody like Cotton Branch and turned into one hell of a nice defensive shotgun. I've seen them "tactical" up a Winchester model 12 with great effect so I have every confidence they could chop a barrel and put some nice sights on the gun for you and modify the stock to boot. If you get the Wingmaster cheap enough it can be competitive with the 590 purchase and you have the assurance of knowing the gun will run right when you get it back from them.

But, again...that's me.
As mentioned in my last post, I did find a like-new looking Wingmaster on Gunbroker. I like this guy's work. What about Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies? I see they even sell 870s they've done up like their Border Patrol model.

Also, just curious, but why do you prefer the 870 over the Mossberg 590A1?

[SwampDweller]

Looks like the Wingmaster I'm looking at is a 1991 production. How does this era of Wingmasters stack up to earlier ones and later ones? Does it have the machined rather than MIM parts?

I like the idea of just ordering a 590A1 with ghost ring sights and having something that should be good to go out of the box, ready to take to the range as is. But if going the R870 Wingmaster/870P route and sending it to Cotton Branch or Wilson Combat is the better way to go in leaving me with the best tool for the job, that's compelling in itself.

Of course, I do have my Dad's Wingmaster that's in very good shape, but I'm hesitant to change anything on that besides swapping the barrel to an 18.5" since it's easy to swap back.

[Dorsai]

I'm rather familiar with the Remington 870 as I've been shooting them since I was a kid. However, I don't have much faith in modern day Remingtons out of the factory, particularly the Express series (and I'm not aware of any 870Ps or Wingmasters being in new production or if they're even made as well as the old ones). If it weren't for that, I'd just order an 870 and be done with it. Let me know if this is off base, but I gather that a modern Mossberg 590A1 is a better roll of the dice on not getting a lemon than it is on a modern 870.

I do have my dad's old Wingmaster that is very nice, but it's more of a family heirloom nowadays.

What's the best way to go about getting a new Remington 870 that's good to go? Whether new production or New Old Stock old production. I'm leery of going with a police trade in or something, as you can never truly know the history.

You pay your money and take your chances. Summit Gun Broker lists them on their website https://www.summitgunbroker.com/online-store/Remington-870-Police-Magnum-12-Gauge-p488276358 and they have run multiple auctions on Gun Broker. They seem to put up 10 or so, then wait a few days and list some more. The one I got looked nearly new. I paid more than some and less than others. I'm completely happy with what I got.

[03RN]

Looks like the Wingmaster I'm looking at is a 1991 production. How does this era of Wingmasters stack up to earlier ones and later ones? Does it have the machined rather than MIM parts?

I like the idea of just ordering a 590A1 with ghost ring sights and having something that should be good to go out of the box, ready to take to the range as is. But if going the R870 Wingmaster/870P route and sending it to Cotton Branch or Wilson Combat is the better way to go in leaving me with the best tool for the job, that's compelling in itself.

Of course, I do have my Dad's Wingmaster that's in very good shape, but I'm hesitant to change anything on that besides swapping the barrel to an 18.5" since it's easy to swap back.

Mossberg vs Remington is just personal preference.

I do like the fact that you're not going to get your thumb jammed between the shell lifter and receiver like in Remingtons and the tang safety. Those are imo the only functional differences.

Also kinda nostalgic from use in the Marines.

[SwampDweller]

You pay your money and take your chances. Summit Gun Broker lists them on their website https://www.summitgunbroker.com/online-store/Remington-870-Police-Magnum-12-Gauge-p488276358 and they have run multiple auctions on Gun Broker. They seem to put up 10 or so, then wait a few days and list some more. The one I got looked nearly new. I paid more than some and less than others. I'm completely happy with what I got.

Dang... That's really tempting, even if it's not my "final solution" (wait... that's probably not the best wording but oh well) to the shotgun issue, it sure wouldn't hurt to buy one of these as something to tune up and have a good solid pump on standby.
Thanks for the link. I don't see many police trade ins for actually good prices anymore.

[SwampDweller]

Mossberg vs Remington is just personal preference.

I do like the fact that you're not going to get your thumb jammed between the shell lifter and receiver like in Remingtons and the tang safety. Those are imo the only functional differences.

Also kinda nostalgic from use in the Marines.

It seems like for an "out of the box", new production shotgun, the 590A1 might be the best bet. Perhaps it's the most practical choice right now and I could take my time getting a solid older 870 tuned up as I go.

Conversely, The 870 is kinda nostalgic for me since I'd been using one for duck hunting and skeet shooting since I was 6, but I'd been bitten in the behind by post-Freedom Group (or Cerberus?) 870 Expresses.

We've gotten some of the new 870s at the shop, I haven't seen a Fieldmaster but the ones we've gotten, mostly home defense style, are marked Express.

[Bergeron]

Mossberg vs Remington is just personal preference.

I do like the fact that you're not going to get your thumb jammed between the shell lifter and receiver like in Remingtons and the tang safety. Those are imo the only functional differences.

Also kinda nostalgic from use in the Marines.

I got started shotgunning with an 835, and it was quite awhile until I understood that shell lifters in most shotguns don’t only pop down while the action’s open. It felt like such a clear difference in loading the guns that even now, I still wonder why “lifter up” during loading appears to only be a Mossberg thing.

[Brian T]

Oof...I wish you hadn't mentioned them. I went and looked them up, because I hadn't heard of them. And aye-aye-aye...they do some nice work...This Model 12 gives me a bad case of 'wants'.

p/CAEPbhrp7Pg

If you want to take over my Model 12 project gun, holla.

[revchuck38]

Does it have to be new or NOS?

If not, and you are just leery of the history, buy a beater one at a pawn shop and send it to Wilson for their Remington Steal package.

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/shotgun-customization/#remingtonsteal

This is sorta what I did, though I got mine from Summit. I'm really happy with the work, and it made it through a class with the Haughts with only a couple of through bolts loosening once (I understand this is common with the 870). I've also got a 590A1 I bought new around 2008 and it's clunky in comparison; I had to replace the ejector soon after I bought it but it's been 100% since. I prefer the 870.

[SwampDweller]

This is sorta what I did, though I got mine from Summit. I'm really happy with the work, and it made it through a class with the Haughts with only a couple of through bolts loosening once (I understand this is common with the 870). I've also got a 590A1 I bought new around 2008 and it's clunky in comparison; I had to replace the ejector soon after I bought it but it's been 100% since. I prefer the 870.

What bolts came loose? I notice on a lot of modified 870s, there’s screws where the trigger group pins are. Were those what was coming loose and what is the point of them?
Also, why did the ejector need replacing on the 590A1?
It's my understanding that the ejector, ejector spring and shell-stops are staked in place. I do like that they are more easily replaceable on the Mossberg.

[SwampDweller]

https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-22578.html

I've been going through old threads on home defense shotguns, and stumbled upon this one from 2016. It seemed that there were many good points about the advantages of a quality semi auto shotgun over a pump action, specifically that there is less chance for user error. The thought process is that using quality defensive ammunition, a reliable semi auto shotgun like a Benelli M4 or a Beretta 1301 is going to be less likely to have an issue than a user-cycled pump action. Some anecdotal experiences in the thread revealed some who had been shotgunning for decades and never short stroked... until they did.

I also noticed a lot of praise for the Benelli M2, though I've always had it in my mind that the Benelli M4 is the ultimate for an ultra-reliable semi auto shotgun.

[TCinVA]

I like this guy's work. What about Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies?

CBC does excellent work. I've handled multiple samples of his work and it's always been impressive. So impressive that I trusted him to do a restoration on a family heirloom, a single shot 16 gauge Model 37A that I used as my primary hunting gun when I was a kid. I dropped a fair few rabbit and squirrel with that gun.

Wilson Combat's packages are nice. I've had the chance to run Rob Haught's signature WC gun as well as having one of my own guns refinished in their Armor Tuff finish and it seems to slick guns up extremely well. They run much smoother after the ArmorTuff finish is applied. Smoother, even, than the guns I've got with cerakote and NP3'd internals. Not by much, but enough for me to notice.

I think it's a tad expensive for the work they are doing, but the full package guns are solid performers.



Also, just curious, but why do you prefer the 870 over the Mossberg 590A1?

The first gun I ever fired was an old Wingmaster in 12 gauge. I like the action better and it's easier to do work on the trigger plate with the 870 than the Mossberg. But mostly it's just personal preference.

[TCinVA]

I've been going through old threads on home defense shotguns, and stumbled upon this one from 2016. It seemed that there were many good points about the advantages of a quality semi auto shotgun over a pump action, specifically that there is less chance for user error.


On a shot to shot basis, yes.

On the basis of getting the gun into action in the first place...well...that's where it gets complicated. And keep in mind that one of the reasons why people short stroke shotguns is because of how ill-fitting most of them are. The Magpul stock, ugly though it may be, does an excellent job of reducing the LOP for most folks enough that it allows the hand to be closer to the body while working the action, which guarantees more power.

So where are you most vulnerable to making the mistake? Between shots, or getting the gun into action in the first place?

It's like anything else in life...you are picking the set of problems you want to have. I've run my semi-auto shotguns enough that I can problem solve with them at speed. Most people aren't putting that kind of flight time on a defensive shotgun and so CHUNK-CHUNK-BOOM-CHUNK-CHUNK is a pretty good strategy for them.

[William B.]

I notice on a lot of modified 870s, there’s screws where the trigger group pins are. Were those what was coming loose and what is the point of them?

I think you're referring to the Sidesaddle mounting bolts. They replace the trigger pins and thread into the Sidesaddle where it mounts on the opposite side of the receiver.

[SwampDweller]

On a shot to shot basis, yes.

On the basis of getting the gun into action in the first place...well...that's where it gets complicated. And keep in mind that one of the reasons why people short stroke shotguns is because of how ill-fitting most of them are. The Magpul stock, ugly though it may be, does an excellent job of reducing the LOP for most folks enough that it allows the hand to be closer to the body while working the action, which guarantees more power.

So where are you most vulnerable to making the mistake? Between shots, or getting the gun into action in the first place?
.
In my experience I’ve been more vulnerable with making the mistake between shots rather than getting the gun into action to begin with. Particularly under “stress” or speed, like shooting at ducks before they get too far away.

For hunting I’ve been using a Beretta Silver Mallard semi auto the last several years, but I like the idea of a pump for defense and have an attraction to them.

[RevolverRob]

For hunting I’ve been using a Beretta Silver Mallard semi auto the last several years, but I like the idea of a pump for defense and have an attraction to them.

Man, I'd go back and read TC's response (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?54345-General-(and-some-specific)-Defensive-Shotgun-Questions&p=1399023&viewfull=1#post1399023) to my Q" "If someone is running a hunting gun of same/similar action to their defensive gun are they at an advantage?"

If you're running a AL390 - a 1301 will have the safety in the same place as an AL390. You're already used to having to hit a bolt release to drop the bolt. The 1301 has just a little bit different manual of arms, but not so different that your time behind an AL390 is a hinderance as opposed to a help. If you run a Beretta semi-auto hunting gun, I would emphatically not recommend a Benelli. The Benelli has a different semi-auto manual of arms compared to the Berettas.

[willie]

The Beretta semi auto shotguns that I owned had the safety on the front side of the trigger guard compared to
Remingtons which have the safety on the rear side of the trigger guard. When changing shotguns by using a Beretta and not a Remington, the different safety locations interfered with my handling the weapon. In one instance a NG discharge resulted. I have had three since age 6. I'll be 75 in January. I write all this to encourage the op to choose a Mossburg pump which has a tang safety and avoid the mix-up that I had. This occurred before I got old.

[SwampDweller]

At work at the moment, but I appreciate the insight. Good point on keeping the manipulation of weapons the same between a sporting and defense shotgun. That's also kind of an advantage to a pump with changeable barrels in that you can use literally the same gun for all purposes.

I did find one piece of insight I did not think of in the previously mentioned old shotgun thread:

However, I recently switched from a 14" Benelli Entry Gun to an 870 in my HD role. One of the drivers was malfunction clearing. Autos (especially inertia autos) are more ammo and weight sensitive. The thing is, an auto relies on the ammo to cycle the gun and due to the nature of shotshell ammo (crimped plastic hull) you get more dimensional variance. Not only that, when an auto gets jammed, it can take 3 or 4 steps to clear, sometimes requiring more hands and fingers than the average human has. It's also faster to get an empty pump up and running again.

Decent point. Shotgun shells aren't as conducive to an autoloading action as rifle or pistol cartridges are, and as a hunter and shooter I've certainly run across a lot of variance between shells even in the same box, and I'm not talking about cheepo stuff either. I figure short stroking is a pretty easy user-induced "malfunction" to clear and can be done rather quickly iirc.

If a shorter LOP stock like the Magpul (but dang I wanted wood!) will help prevent short stroking, that sounds like the ticket to running a pump and guaranteeing enough power for one to cycle it.

[RevolverRob]

Remember the 1301 is a gas, not inertia, gun. It is far less picky about ammo and may be the least picky semi out there.

But if you want a pump gun and have your heart set on it. I'd still lean towards a 590A1 setup with Magpul kit. You just need a spare ammo carrier of some kind, a sling, and a light. If you do the Magpul setup, you can run the M-Lok cantilever scout mount with something like an Inforce WML.

[SwampDweller]

Remember the 1301 is a gas, not inertia, gun. It is far less picky about ammo and may be the least picky semi out there.

But if you want a pump gun and have your heart set on it. I'd still lean towards a 590A1 setup with Magpul kit. You just need a spare ammo carrier of some kind, a sling, and a light. If you do the Magpul setup, you can run the M-Lok cantilever scout mount with something like an Inforce WML.

Right now I don't necessarily have my heart set on anything. As for a pump, yeah, I'd probably go with a 590A1 as you described. If semi auto, it'd either be a 1301 or M4, both of which are gas operated. Though it's my understanding that the 1301 in many people's experience is less picky about ammo whereas the M4 was designed to run only with full power loads.

At this point it's mainly a "pump vs semi auto" decision. If I go with an autoloader, it'd be between the Benelli M4 and the 1301. I do really like the proven track record over 2 decades in military and other use, the original military testing results on the M4 was quite impressive. Not to mention Battlefield Vegas' range report on how their shotguns were holding up and the M4 was legendary. I don't think they had/have any 1301s, but there's no replacement for track record. But I do already have a Beretta so I'm familiar somewhat with it.

I like the idea of a pump more, especially one with 8+1 rounds, and if I can successfully put to rest my concerns about short stroking, that's likely the route I'd go. It sounds like clearing a short stroke malfunction is faster than clearing an autoloader stoppage, iirc. I think all it took me was bringing the pump back again and retrying.

[RevolverRob]

Right now I don't necessarily have my heart set on anything. As for a pump, yeah, I'd probably go with a 590A1 as you described. If semi auto, it'd either be a 1301 or M4, both of which are gas operated. Though it's my understanding that the 1301 in many people's experience is less picky about ammo whereas the M4 was designed to run only with full power loads.

At this point it's mainly a "pump vs semi auto" decision. If I go with an autoloader, it'd be between the Benelli M4 and the 1301. I do really like the proven track record over 2 decades in military and other use, the original military testing results on the M4 was quite impressive. Not to mention Battlefield Vegas' range report on how their shotguns were holding up and the M4 was legendary. I don't think they had/have any 1301s, but there's no replacement for track record. But I do already have a Beretta so I'm familiar somewhat with it.

I like the idea of a pump more, especially one with 8+1 rounds, and if I can successfully put to rest my concerns about short stroking, that's likely the route I'd go. It sounds like clearing a short stroke malfunction is faster than clearing an autoloader stoppage, iirc. I think all it took me was bringing the pump back again and retrying.

Okay - Semi vs. Pump - let's break it down as to what makes you lean one way or the other.

What are your top 3 reasons for a pump?

What are your top 3 reasons for an auto?

What is the biggest con of the pump vs. biggest con of auto for you?

FWIW, I don't think you can go wrong with any well made 12 or 20 gauge repeating shotgun and a handful of buckshot. I like 12s, my wife likes 20s, right now the long gun sitting by the bed is this 20-gauge 870:

95015

[SwampDweller]

Okay - Semi vs. Pump - let's break it down as to what makes you lean one way or the other.

What are your top 3 reasons for a pump?

What are your top 3 reasons for an auto?

What is the biggest con of the pump vs. biggest con of auto for you?

Top 3 reasons for Pump (no particular order):
1. Insensitivity to ammunition; I can practice with powder puff loads out of the box with no fear of "is this gonna be too weak to cycle and then I'll wonder if it was the gun or the ammo?" Federal Top Gun is cheap.
2. Mechanically simple and extremely reliable. I know modern semi autos are extremely reliable too, but excluding user error, as long as you can run the pump and keep it fed the gun will work. No gas or inertia systems.
3. I just like the way they look and feel. This probably shouldn't be a top reason, but the way they look and feel inspire confidence. They've been doing the job for well over a century.

Top 3 reasons for Auto (no particular order):
1. Eliminates the possibility of user-induced short stroking. This seems useful when operating under stress and speed, but perhaps with enough practice and training with a pump could be a nothingburger.
2. Could be wrong, but the faster rate of fire might prove helpful in a home invasion scenario with multiple opponents being faced all at one time.
3. If an arm/hand is wounded enough to preclude the working of a pump, you'll at least still be able to fire the shots you have in the gun. Also easier to use prone.

Top Con for Pump vs Auto--
Pump: Possibility of user-induced short stroking
Auto: More complicated. Possible ammo sensitivity or cycling stoppages. Also more expensive.

____________

Other than that, another thing I like about the pump is that it's relatively safe from the political landscape's increasingly anti-gun posture and intent compared to most anything else, especially if I put non-threatening looking wood furniture on it.

[diananike]

Okay - Semi vs. Pump - let's break it down as to what makes you lean one way or the other.

What are your top 3 reasons for a pump?

What are your top 3 reasons for an auto?

What is the biggest con of the pump vs. biggest con of auto for you?

FWIW, I don't think you can go wrong with any well made 12 or 20 gauge repeating shotgun and a handful of buckshot. I like 12s, my wife likes 20s, right now the long gun sitting by the bed is this 20-gauge 870:

95015

What kind of 20gauge ammo are you running ?

I tried 2.75” Federal and Winchester #3 buckshot and Federal premium 3” #2 buckshot in both an IC and Modified choke and had quite poor patterning with all of them. They were all throwing a couple of pellets off a 8.5x11 paper at only 12yds.
I wish there was a flitecontrol option in 20gauge.

I love the small frames of 20 gauge guns but the buckshot options are just too poor in patterning for me to consider it as good option.

[RevolverRob]

What kind of 20gauge ammo are you running ?

I tried 2.75” Federal and Winchester #3 buckshot and Federal premium 3” #2 buckshot in both an IC and Modified choke and had quite poor patterning with all of them. They were all throwing a couple of pellets off a 8.5x11 paper at only 12yds.
I wish there was a flitecontrol option in 20gauge.

I love the small frames of 20 gauge guns but the buckshot options are just too poor in patterning for me to consider it as good option.

I am running Spartan "00" buck. Which is not double-aught, but in fact is #1 buck. It's a 9-pellet load at about 1200fps and it patterns quite well overall at of an IMOD choke. I can keep 8 of 9 pellets on a B8 out to 20y. Which is acceptable for my purposes, because there is only 30-yards from the edge of my property line to the other edge of the property line.

I've got several dozen of the Winchester and Remington buck and it also doesn't pattern super well. A combo of no buffering and high velocity. I think I get a lot of smashed pellets as they leave the muzzle.

The other two loads I haven't tried but need/want to. Aguila has a #2 buck load at 1220fps (https://www.aguilaammo.com/products/20-gauge-buckshot) and Winchester has a 20-gauge Personal Defense which is #3 buck, buffered, copper plated, and lower velocity than the Federal 3" loads.
(https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/Defender/SB203PD)

[LHS]

I am running Spartan "00" buck. Which is not double-aught, but in fact is #1 buck. It's a 9-pellet load at about 1200fps and it patterns quite well overall at of an IMOD choke. I can keep 8 of 9 pellets on a B8 out to 20y. Which is acceptable for my purposes, because there is only 30-yards from the edge of my property line to the other edge of the property line.

I've got several dozen of the Winchester and Remington buck and it also doesn't pattern super well. A combo of no buffering and high velocity. I think I get a lot of smashed pellets as they leave the muzzle.

The other two loads I haven't tried but need/want to. Aguila has a #2 buck load at 1220fps (https://www.aguilaammo.com/products/20-gauge-buckshot) and Winchester has a 20-gauge Personal Defense which is #3 buck, buffered, copper plated, and lower velocity than the Federal 3" loads.
(https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Shotshell/Defender/SB203PD)

I dream of a proper 20ga FliteControl round with 8 or 9 pellets of copper-plated #1 buck going ~1150fps or so.

[RevolverRob]

I dream of a proper 20ga FliteControl round with 8 or 9 pellets of copper-plated #1 buck going ~1150fps or so.

Yea the Spartan is the closest I've found. It's not low recoil FC or TAP good, but with good choke selection it is acceptable.

Now that Federal makes a FliteControl 20-gauge for waterfowl, I see no reason why they can't co-opt the wad and shove some #1 buck in there. You can only get about 9-pellets of #1 into a 20-gauge shell - an 8-pellet load with buffering in a FC wad would do the trick nicely.

[LHS]

Yea the Spartan is the closest I've found. It's not low recoil FC or TAP good, but with good choke selection it is acceptable.

Now that Federal makes a FliteControl 20-gauge for waterfowl, I see no reason why they can't co-opt the wad and shove some #1 buck in there. You can only get about 9-pellets of #1 into a 20-gauge shell - an 8-pellet load with buffering in a FC wad would do the trick nicely.

Yeah I saw they were making FC hunting loads a while back, and I had hoped that would lead to a defensive loading, but it's been several years now with no love for the baby gauge.

[RevolverRob]

Yeah I saw they were making FC hunting loads a while back, and I had hoped that would lead to a defensive loading, but it's been several years now with no love for the baby gauge.

Yea, I get all grumbly about it from time to time, because it could/should exist. But since Federal can't supply us with a decent amount of LE133 for use - the dream of a 20ga FC Defensive load seems a bit cart before horse.

[diananike]

I wish the Spartan 20 gauge or another #1 buckshot was available in Canada
I haven’t seen it anywhere up here
If it was I’d be tempted to give a 20 gauge shockwave a whirl.
I really like the .410 version and 5 pellet 000 patterns amazingly

[LHS]

The only buckshot loads I've tested recently were a Rio 9-pellet #1 buck, and a S&B #2 buck. Both patterned poorly out of the mod- and cylinder-bore barrels I tried. They'd probably be acceptable inside, say, a typical 2-bedroom apartment if it didn't have very long hallways.

[Brian T]

About the only thing I have to offer for you 20 gauges types is that you can order primed, virgin high brass hulls for fairly cheap. Wads are cheap, especially if you go with discs. Pellets are pretty cheap too. Shotgun powders are running a little higher these days, but still less than traditional pistol or rifle powders. I'm not necessarily saying load your own, but I'm not saying dont. And if you dont think you can, its not too hard to find a reloading shop that can do it for you. You should be able to get 10 1-buck pellets into a 20 gauge.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Mossberg vs Remington is just personal preference.

I do like the fact that you're not going to get your thumb jammed between the shell lifter and receiver like in Remingtons and the tang safety. Those are imo the only functional differences.

Also kinda nostalgic from use in the Marines.


Personal preference is too true, but there are a few more functional differences.

1. As the Mossy shell lifter rests in the up position, if the magazine tube decides to vomit up its contents, they fall on the ground instead of tying up the action.

2. While not as slick or elegant, replacing the ejector requires a screwdriver rather than rivets.

3. Dual extractors on the Mossberg.

4. The tang safety on the Mossberg is truly ambidextrous.

5. This one I don't see mentioned a lot, but the location of the slide release, forward of the trigger guard, on the 870 requires releasing your primary grip on the weapon to activate (at least with my small digits....YMMV). The Mossberg does not.

That all being said, if one has a ton of familiarity with a particular platform, that is certainly something to be taken into consideration.

[willie]

The 590A1 barrel is thick walled and very heavy. The 590 is less expensive and does not have the heavier barrel. I have owned both. Until I recently sold my "riot guns" as they were once called, I had a collection put together since 1981. The 590 will do the same thing as the 590A1. The A1 has an aluminum trigger assembly and a metal safety button.

The op can learn to operate a pump shotgun and not have a short stroke malfunction. Moving the fore end with force and speed along its path prevents this. He can't break the mechanism. Let me point out that having a loaded extended magazine tube produces a heavy weapon that for some is cumbersome. If he buys a Mossberg, I suggest using 0000 steel wool wrapped around a brush to polish the chamber. The regular model has a 5 shot tube. Adding a +1 extension gives a handy 7 shot shotgun.

[SwampDweller]

Personal preference is too true, but there are a few more functional differences.

1. As the Mossy shell lifter rests in the up position, if the magazine tube decides to vomit up its contents, they fall on the ground instead of tying up the action.

2. While not as slick or elegant, replacing the ejector requires a screwdriver rather than rivets.

3. Dual extractors on the Mossberg.

4. The tang safety on the Mossberg is truly ambidextrous.

5. This one I don't see mentioned a lot, but the location of the slide release, forward of the trigger guard, on the 870 requires releasing your primary grip on the weapon to activate (at least with my small digits....YMMV). The Mossberg does not.

That all being said, if one has a ton of familiarity with a particular platform, that is certainly something to be taken into consideration.

For me, I've narrowed it down between a Mossberg 590A1 and a Benelli M4. It really comes down to semi auto vs pump.

[SwampDweller]

The 590A1 barrel is thick walled and very heavy. The 590 is less expensive and does not have the heavier barrel. I have owned both. Until I recently sold my "riot guns" as they were once called, I had a collection put together since 1981. The 590 will do the same thing as the 590A1. The A1 has an aluminum trigger assembly and a metal safety button.

The op can learn to operate a pump shotgun and not have a short stroke malfunction. Moving the fore end with force and speed along its path prevents this. He can't break the mechanism. Let me point out that having a loaded extended magazine tube produces a heavy weapon that for some is cumbersome. If he buys a Mossberg, I suggest using 0000 steel wool wrapped around a brush to polish the chamber. The regular model has a 5 shot tube. Adding a +1 extension gives a handy 7 shot shotgun.
If I can get the short stroke concerns put away, yeah, a 590/590A1 is what I’d prefer. Good points on the 590 vs A1.

[SwampDweller]

If I get a PD trade in 870P, would sending it off to VangComp or somewhere similar bring it up to like-new condition?

[Lon]

If I get a PD trade in 870P, would sending it off to VangComp or somewhere similar bring it up to like-new condition?

I think so. I’ve been very happy with my 870 Super Express that’s been Vang’d.

[Tannhauser]

If I get a PD trade in 870P, would sending it off to VangComp or somewhere similar bring it up to like-new condition?

Functionally, I’d think definitely. Appearance wise, i don’t know.

My 870P police trade in was beat to shot on the outside. I cleaned off the surface rust and then left it as-is. Internals we’re in great condition. If I cared how it looked Id probably get it Cerakoted.

[RevolverRob]

I'll say this: I emailed Josh at Cotton Branch Customs about a fairly extensive set of modifications I want done to my father's old Winchester pump. Not only is he able to do it, but the prices he quoted me were excellent. It's 8-10 months for him right now. If I bought an old 870 or another Winchester and needed it tuned up, I'd definitely check with Cotton Branch - probably ahead of Vang or Wilson at this point.

But don't everyone rush out and get on Josh's list. I need his wait times low - because I have too many shotguns I want built.

[03RN]

I'll say this: I emailed Josh at Cotton Branch Customs about a fairly extensive set of modifications I want done to my father's old Winchester pump. Not only is he able to do it, but the prices he quoted me were excellent. It's 8-10 months for him right now. If I bought an old 870 or another Winchester and needed it tuned up, I'd definitely check with Cotton Branch - probably ahead of Vang or Wilson at this point.

But don't everyone rush out and get on Josh's list. I need his wait times low - because I have too many shotguns I want built.

I'm glad I just buy 590s and shoot the shit out of them. No need to send them out.

[RevolverRob]

I'm glad I just buy 590s and shoot the shit out of them. No need to send them out.

I mean, I've been pretty clear. I think most folks should buy a 590A1 or a 1301 and call it a day.

But for me - I am generally very comfortable working on my own guns. And the 870 is a particularly simple gun, in my opinion. Almost anyone who can change their own oil and air filter can probably figure out how to replace shell stops and springs in an old 870. But when it comes to chopping and welding on guns - I leave that to the dudes who dedicate their life to doing that, they tend to do better work. Especially guns that haven't been produced in ~60+ years.

[SwampDweller]

I'm still trying to decide between a 1301 or Benelli M4. Benelli has been around longer and is pretty well proven, though the 1301 definitely seems to be the current hottness. It's also my understanding that the M4 can be more ammo sensitive, but for both I'd probably limit to full power buckshot or slugs for vetting reliability. Are the 1301s as sensitive to ammunition selection as the M4? More? Less?

In competitions where you've got lots of people putting lots of rounds through semi auto shotguns, what (in anyone's observation who's been able to see this) have been the most popular and most trouble-free?

[Exiledviking]

I'm still trying to decide between a 1301 or Benelli M4. Benelli has been around longer and is pretty well proven, though the 1301 definitely seems to be the current hottness. It's also my understanding that the M4 can be more ammo sensitive, but for both I'd probably limit to full power buckshot or slugs for vetting reliability. Are the 1301s as sensitive to ammunition selection as the M4? More? Less?

In competitions where you've got lots of people putting lots of rounds through semi auto shotguns, what (in anyone's observation who's been able to see this) have been the most popular and most trouble-free?

The standard Pistol-forum.com answer is...buy both. I have the M4 and I'm happy with it. I do, however, plan on picking up a 1301 as well.

[TCinVA]

Are the 1301s as sensitive to ammunition selection as the M4? More? Less?

Less, by orders of magnitude.

I did a private session with a client on Sunday who had a brand new, unfired 1301 and it ran most of the time with Winchester AA extra light loads meant to be run only in break-action guns. It failed to fully cycle the bolt a couple of times meaning it didn't feed a new shell, but successfully ejected the spent shell. Running the bolt got the shell off the lifter and it fired.

That's fucking impressive from a semi-auto shotgun that would then go on to run full power slugs reliably and with low felt recoil.

It's lighter, cheaper (for now), easier to adapt to your body thanks to the innovations from Aridus, and it runs a wider range of ammunition without complaint.

To me that's a no brainer. The M4 isn't a bad shotgun but the 1301 does what most people actually need a defensive shotgun to do better than the M4 does.



In competitions where you've got lots of people putting lots of rounds through semi auto shotguns, what (in anyone's observation who's been able to see this) have been the most popular and most trouble-free?

You won't see many M4's in competitions because it's not set up for that kind of use. Plenty of 3 gunners run Benellis, but they are usually modified inertia guns. Plenty of people run 1301 Competition models.

If I was going to buy a semi-auto for defensive use tomorrow it would be another 1301.

If someone shoots clay or hunts with a Benelli already, buy the Benelli so you aren't screwing around trying to learn different control layouts.

If not, buy the 1301 while it's still relatively affordable.

[SwampDweller]

Less, by orders of magnitude.

I did a private session with a client on Sunday who had a brand new, unfired 1301 and it ran most of the time with Winchester AA extra light loads meant to be run only in break-action guns. It failed to fully cycle the bolt a couple of times meaning it didn't feed a new shell, but successfully ejected the spent shell. Running the bolt got the shell off the lifter and it fired.

That's fucking impressive from a semi-auto shotgun that would then go on to run full power slugs reliably and with low felt recoil.

It's lighter, cheaper (for now), easier to adapt to your body thanks to the innovations from Aridus, and it runs a wider range of ammunition without complaint.

To me that's a no brainer. The M4 isn't a bad shotgun but the 1301 does what most people actually need a defensive shotgun to do better than the M4 does.



You won't see many M4's in competitions because it's not set up for that kind of use. Plenty of 3 gunners run Benellis, but they are usually modified inertia guns. Plenty of people run 1301 Competition models.

If I was going to buy a semi-auto for defensive use tomorrow it would be another 1301.

If someone shoots clay or hunts with a Benelli already, buy the Benelli so you aren't screwing around trying to learn different control layouts.

If not, buy the 1301 while it's still relatively affordable.

I do use a Beretta Silver Mallard for a hunting shotgun, but I don't know if the 1301 has the same controls or not. I was previously a bit worried about the "fatal flaw" thing, but I suppose that's long resolved enough. If it's not happening to guys bumping around with them in 3 gun, that's a pretty safe bet.

Absolute reliability is more important to me than cost or recoil, but if the Beretta is the answer, then that's that.

Are there any institutional/LE/mil/govt users of the 1301 or Beretta shotguns with the same basic operating system?

[WobblyPossum]

Alabama DPS issues 1301s and there was a recent OIS by Las Vegas Metro PD in which the officer used a 1301, but I can’t say if they issue them or have a list of personally owned approved guns. I’m sure there are more but not many. The shotgun is dying in LE as more and more agencies trade them in for patrol rifles. Many agencies now relegate shotguns to less lethal only or ballistic breaching guns for SWAT dudes with the role of bigger-gun-for-bigger-problems being filled by ARs. My guess is the last “big” institutional test of shotguns is going to be the one that led the Marine Corps to select the Benelli M4 because most institutional users aren’t looking for shotguns anymore.

I’m satisfied with the reliability of 1301s from a combination of owning one, seeing good things said about them by people in the training industry who see a lot of different guns run a lot of rounds through them every year, and not hearing anything bad out of the competition circuit where some people are running them too. If you’re looking to large institutional users for approval of your next potential shotgun, I wouldn’t hold my breath. The market continues to be flooded with police trade-in Remington 870s but those departments aren’t generally replacing them with new shotguns.

ETA: from looking at the Beretta A390 Silver Mallard online, the controls looks almost identical to the 1301. The bolt release on the 1301 is in the same location but it’s much larger. Everything else looks the same. I don’t actually know if the buttons all do the exact same things, but they’re in the snake locations. If keeping the same manual of arms between your hunting and defensive shotgun is important to you, then the 1301 might have another advantage.