Low Backup Iron Sights

[Clusterfrack]

I have been experimenting with very low BUIS on my RDS-equipped handguns. This setup uses a rear sight with notch just visible at the bottom of the window, and a shorter-than-normal front sight, which shifts the POI up into the center of the optic window.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220922/977a2c197afe675a10a4f33ad20406e2.jpg


The POA remains the same regardless of whether the dot is on. The index is the same with dot and BUIS.

Not surprisingly, I've had numerous questions about this setup--first and foremost whether I can hit anything with the dot off. See below. Low Witness works really well and I recommend giving it a try. If you have a Glock, the switch is especially easy. All that's required is a front sight that's about 0.050" shorter.


25yds, 10 shots, with dot on.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220922/49c3b21a702867ceb125febd891b0334.jpg


25yds, dot turned off. Using my “low witness” BUIS. POI is in the middle of the optic when irons are aligned at bottom of window.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220922/cf288abc8d8c0a16bad6998300b5f5e9.jpg

[GJM]

I have been using these for a while with complete satisfaction. Lower overall height and rounded rear easy on clothing:

https://chpws.com/product/buis-for-glock-mos-direct-milled-slides/

[Clusterfrack]

I have been using these for a while with complete satisfaction. Lower overall height and rounded rear easy on clothing:

https://chpws.com/product/buis-for-glock-mos-direct-milled-slides/

Where is your POI with those irons?

[GJM]

Where is your POI with those irons?

Similar to what I get with Ameriglo BUIS -- the sights are shorter but same relative proportions as with Ameriglo.

[Clusterfrack]

Similar to what I get with Ameriglo BUIS -- the sights are shorter but same relative proportions as with Ameriglo.

Makes sense. My setup uses a shorter front.

[GJM]

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[Tensaw]

Great timing on this post! Just yesterday I heard a comment from a pretty well known trainer advocating for absolute co-witness irons. This, under the theory that, as part of verifying the weapon status before heading out the door, one can and should verify the zero of the dot by seeing the dot sitting on top of the front sight. Mind you that the context for this is purely duty or defensive use. This practice sounds good, but obviously runs counter to the notion of freeing up as much of the window as possible. Absolute co-witness irons would also run counter to the notion that one of the benefits of having an RDS in a defensive situation is the ability to see more of what the thug is doing while you look at them through the window.

What say ye?

[GJM]

Great timing on this post! Just yesterday I heard a comment from a pretty well known trainer advocating for absolute co-witness irons. This, under the theory that, as part of verifying the weapon status before heading out the door, one can and should verify the zero of the dot by seeing the dot sitting on top of the front sight. Mind you that the context for this is purely duty or defensive use. This practice sounds good, but obviously runs counter to the notion of freeing up as much of the window as possible. Absolute co-witness irons would also run counter to the notion that one of the benefits of having an RDS in a defensive situation is the ability to see more of what the thug is doing while you look at them through the window.

What say ye?

1) with low height BUIS you can still see the relative position of the dot and irons.

2) if you want to be OCD, get a green Wheeler laser sighter, and check at 25 yards or as close to that as you can.

[Clusterfrack]

On carbines, I often confirm my dot zero using flip-up BUIS. Most of my carbine optics use a lower 1/3 height mount, so even with lower 1/4 co-witnessed irons on pistols (like GJM's setup above), you can do the same thing. However, with "floating dot" irons this doesn't work the same way because the dot is floating above the aligned irons. That might seem like a trade-off, but I can still confirm precise windage alignment, and approximate elevation alignment in the same way that I can shoot center of window with the dot turned off and irons aligned at the bottom. I would argue that if it's good enough to shoot A's at 25yds, that's good enough for a defense or duty gun.

If we are shooting target focus with both eyes open, full co-witness irons won't block vision of the target. Heck, some people shoot with the front of the optic blacked out to force target focus and do pretty darn well. Schmidtshow

Full co-witness or low "floating dot" irons as I've described above both allow the shooter to use the same index (center of window) with the dot on and off. With low CO-witnessed irons, the shooter has to adjust how they aim the gun.


Great timing on this post! Just yesterday I heard a comment from a pretty well known trainer advocating for absolute co-witness irons. This, under the theory that, as part of verifying the weapon status before heading out the door, one can and should verify the zero of the dot by seeing the dot sitting on top of the front sight. Mind you that the context for this is purely duty or defensive use. This practice sounds good, but obviously runs counter to the notion of freeing up as much of the window as possible. Absolute co-witness irons would also run counter to the notion that one of the benefits of having an RDS in a defensive situation is the ability to see more of what the thug is doing while you look at them through the window.

What say ye?

[Bergeron]

I’m a big fan of this concept, “lower 1/10th” or whatever we might be calling it.

I think that as pistol RDS become more mature and common, this will become a more frequent solution.

I gave all-black “suppressor-heights” to my ‘Smith a while back ago and had them ground to fit & zero.

[JCN]

Great timing on this post! Just yesterday I heard a comment from a pretty well known trainer advocating for absolute co-witness irons. This, under the theory that, as part of verifying the weapon status before heading out the door, one can and should verify the zero of the dot by seeing the dot sitting on top of the front sight. Mind you that the context for this is purely duty or defensive use. This practice sounds good, but obviously runs counter to the notion of freeing up as much of the window as possible. Absolute co-witness irons would also run counter to the notion that one of the benefits of having an RDS in a defensive situation is the ability to see more of what the thug is doing while you look at them through the window.

What say ye?

Did you know that if you do lower 10th co-witness… you can still confirm position of your dot on the irons.

It doesn’t have to be in the center of the window.

What Clusterfrack is doing differently here is having irons that don’t actually place with the dot.

The irons are designed to be “off” but aligned when holding in a traditional dot index (that would put the front sight higher than the notch in a lower 10th co-witness).

This is a schematic.

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So again that “well known trainer” doesn’t seem to be giving good advice. You can check your dot to irons even with a lower 10th co-witness.

Doesn’t have to be in the middle of the window.

[Tensaw]

Thank you, gentlemen. Very helpful.

[Clusterfrack]

What Clusterfrack is doing differently here is having irons that don’t actually place with the dot.

The irons are designed to be “off” but aligned when holding in a traditional dot index (that would put the front sight higher than the notch in a lower 10th co-witness).

This is a schematic.

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Thanks for making this sketch. That is very helpful.

[mmc45414]

This is interesting to me, because I just received my first direct mill gun, and I went with the Jagerwerks Race Cut, basically as far back as possible without a sight cut:

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I am using the SRO so that precludes the notch in front of the optic. I don't like the idea of something behind the optic, cluttering up the picture when I am trying to cultivate my mojo on using the optic and finding the dot. If the sight could be in front of the optic I might go for that, but I like the SRO (5moa) for giving me all of the advantage I can use when getting up the learning curve.

I plan to shoot it initially with no front sight, then my thought is to eventually size a Dawson (probably green FO, like my other guns) so the FO dot is at the bottom of the window, just like this example, just skimping out on the notch. Maybe I will make a Sharpie stripe in the center of the back of the sight, dunno. At this stage I am focused on shooting the gun with the dot. But I had not considered aligning the sights but using the center of the optic as the aiming point.

[WobblyPossum]

I’m running something similar on my G19 with RMR. I’m using an Ameriglo GL429 rear paired with a Dawson .285” front. POI at 25y is a few inches above POA and the sight picture is probably a lower 1/5 cowitness. I’m liking the unobstructed window a lot.

[Bergeron]

Strong concur on the preference for unobstructed vision.

I first envisioned using absolute cowitness, but I ended up with my slides back wearing their dots one true cowitnessed, and one with only the RDS. I attempted a couple of versions of big-ring front sights, but the holster issues were endless, and the benefit was very minimal. This 1/10th solution is a pleasant compromise of utility. It's there, it's intrusion is minimal, and it still serves reasonable usage.

[ChknLivrNWsky]

Has anyone tried the 10-8 low profile standard height sights for the MOS?

I have a g19 with FCD optic plate and RMR type 2 just waiting on BUIS. This is my first pistol with RDS. I was set on getting the 10-8 optic height sights, but reading this thread and a few others has me thinking of going with something lower height.

I sent them an email, but I see their office is closed due to the hurricane.

[Clusterfrack]

Vince at Stonebridge Gunworks (https://stonebridgegunworks.com) is going to offer this BUIS setup as an option.
JCN’s diagram helped explain WTF this is all about.

94685


I have been experimenting with very low BUIS on my RDS-equipped handguns. This setup uses a rear sight with notch just visible at the bottom of the window, and a shorter-than-normal front sight, which shifts the POI up into the center of the optic window.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220922/977a2c197afe675a10a4f33ad20406e2.jpg


The POA remains the same regardless of whether the dot is on. The index is the same with dot and BUIS.

Not surprisingly, I've had numerous questions about this setup--first and foremost whether I can hit anything with the dot off. See below. Low Witness works really well and I recommend giving it a try. If you have a Glock, the switch is especially easy. All that's required is a front sight that's about 0.050" shorter.

[Bergeron]

Given the apparent popularity of the compact TLR lights, in addition to our well-loved Surefire pistol lights, the laser-equipped versions (I prefer the green, myself) are potentially an additional backup solution to pure or lower-1/3 cowitness, and I can attest that a lower 1/10th plus a TLR-8g gives both substantial "backup" capabilities while keeping an open window.

I've tried the setup with the dot off in class, and had no issues, but I haven't tried in a match setting.

[drfous]

Vince at Stonebridge Gunworks (https://stonebridgegunworks.com) is going to offer this BUIS setup as an option.



Thanks for the write up!

Do you know the sights you are using?

I'm trying to find a similar setup for a P-07 that's being cut now for a EPS.