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View Full Version : P30 - stoppage, 147 HST, maintenance etc



YVK
09-21-2012, 07:24 PM
My P30 just had it second stoppage. The first one happened when TRS broke, so today's really a first unexplained "functional" stoppage. Round count is approximately 11,000; I am away from my log book. The stoppage was failure to extract, empty casing stuck midway on its way out of the chamber. It fell out almost on its own after I removed the magazine and flipped gun upside down.

The most concerning part was that I was expending a magazine of my carry ammo, and this was a third round from the top. The ammo is 147 grain +P HST. Following that, I shot 40 more rounds of it, and 20 rounds of 147 grain Ranger bonded without any problems.

Questions:

- anybody had any problems with 147 +P HST? I admit I only had shot 150 rounds of it before today;

- what do I look for as a cause of failure to extract? In 1911s it is almost invariably extractor tension; any way to trouble shoot P30 extractor?

- with round count of 11K, what maintenance do I do on P30? I dont know what is the dry fire count, lets make it liberally the same as live countand conservatively 50% of live count.

Thanks in advance.

PS: I used my droid for this post and hit a wrong sub forum with my fat finger. Moderators, please move to armorer etc subforum.

JV_
09-21-2012, 07:27 PM
- what do I look for as a cause of failure to extract?Dirty chamber.


with round count of 11K, what maintenance do I do on P30?I recommend a TRS @ 10K trigger pulls.

ToddG
09-21-2012, 08:37 PM
I'd concur on the dirty chamber. I'd also probably pull the extractor, clean it, and clean the interface point in the slide.

I changed TRS every 12.5k on my P30, otherwise nothing should need changing (unless you have breakage/problem) until 25k.

GJM
09-21-2012, 09:02 PM
For the TLG trigger set-up, what trigger return spring do you want (not sure if there are different part numbers), and is HK USA or HKParts.net the best source for it? What do you do at 25,000 rounds?

YVK
09-21-2012, 09:38 PM
There was quite a bit of stuff caked up on the inside of extractor.

The chamber seemed OK, although the gun was kind of filthy, so the chamber must've been too.

After cleaning it, I found what seems to be a small area of a chamber surface erosion. This also can be of some other mechanical origin like a scratch or something. This preceded my cleaning efforts, i.e. it is not from the brush as there was some stuff caked up on top of it. I initially thought it was a copper fouling, but I couldn't make it go away with copper cleaner or polish. Anyway, doubt it would matter, just posting it for an academic observation: so far my HK has been somewhat less reliable and less durable as far as parts breakage or wear than my 2009 Glock 19.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/Heartachedoc/chamber_zps16969c6f.jpg

Spr1
09-22-2012, 06:02 AM
Are you referring to the matte looking area on the barrel hood or the area above the bright line/reflection on the far side of the chamber?
My cleaning routine (your what??) involves using a stiff Nylon brush along the extractor hook and corners of the breech area to remove carbon. My P30 got to around 20K rounds before having a FTE. I did a detailed cleaning by removing the extractor and scrapping and brushing the carbon out of the groove in the slide and all surfaces of the extractor. In the last 1500 or so rounds it has been as perfect as before.

GJM
09-22-2012, 07:12 AM
There was quite a bit of stuff caked up on the inside of extractor.

The chamber seemed OK, although the gun was kind of filthy, so the chamber must've been too.

After cleaning it, I found what seems to be a small area of a chamber surface erosion. This also can be of some other mechanical origin like a scratch or something. This preceded my cleaning efforts, i.e. it is not from the brush as there was some stuff caked up on top of it. I initially thought it was a copper fouling, but I couldn't make it go away with copper cleaner or polish. Anyway, doubt it would matter, just posting it for an academic observation: so far my HK has been somewhat less reliable and less durable as far as parts breakage or wear than my 2009 Glock 19.
]

YVK, isn't one TRS failure and one other stoppage in 11,000 rounds pretty darn good?

I think this reinforces the importance of having a shooter and another copy for carry -- since round count (TRS) and dirt (this stoppage) are inevitable on a primary shooter.

YVK
09-22-2012, 11:28 AM
Are you referring to the matte looking area on the barrel hood or the area above the bright line/reflection on the far side of the chamber?

Yes, except the bright line is actually a linear scratch/loss of metal. It looks so bright because I didn't know how to take a photo, so there is a lot of light directed there from both sides of the barrel. The scratch is a border between matte area and normal looking metal.

G: I am not fond of trs breakage at 5K, but overall your point is well taken: 5500 rounds between stoppages is excellent. My point is that I think that often quoted superiority of HKs in regards to material strength, better steel, better raw components etc is an urban myth.

Dagga Boy
09-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Not really an urban myth. What Hk tends to offer is consistently good and high quality everything. They are more complicated mechanisms in order to get specific traits. There is more stuff to break. My older Gen 2.5 and early Gen 3 Glocks are by far the most reliable guns I have ever shot. This is no longer the case due to material and manufacturing changes. My older Sigs are simply machines, I woudn't own a U.S. made Sig. Smith and Wesson is like a roller coaster of quality as is Colt and others. Ruger's are usually good after the first couple of recall's. In the over 25 years of expereince I have running various HK systems, they are all exceptionally good service guns. The parts quality has never been an issue. The day I got a Glock extractor that wouldn't fit in the gun, was the day I went back to carrying an HK as my primary carry gun. This could change again, but the reality is that my HK's have always been consistently very good pistols, and I have only had issues associated with wear and high round counts (normal) and not failure or QC issues.

SecondsCount
09-22-2012, 11:59 AM
...

G: I am not fond of trs breakage at 5K, but overall your point is well taken: 5500 rounds between stoppages is excellent. My point is that I think that often quoted superiority of HKs in regards to material strength, better steel, better raw components etc is an urban myth.

You could say the same of Glock Perfection. Your sample seems to run great, others not so much.

Guns break, some earlier than others. Making it to 5K rounds before breaking is impressive but falls well short of HK's 25K round replacement schedule.

YVK
09-22-2012, 12:13 PM
Nyeti, individual experiences differ, and that leads to different conclusion. I make no illusions that my experience is a fraction of yours. But when I have a P30 trs break at 5k, P7's firing pin bushing disintegrate at 7K shortly followed by a drop safety spring come out in pieces, and metal loss in the chamber at 11k, I think I have enough grounds for a reasonable doubt. Unless the above examples are fair wear for the round count.

Just to reemphasize again: this is purely an academic observation, I couldn't care less in practical sense. More than that, my position is that if I am beating a couple of HKs into a wear and parts breakage, then I am doing something right.

Dagga Boy
09-22-2012, 12:23 PM
Nyeti, individual experiences differ, and that leads to different conclusion. I make no illusions that my experience is a fraction of yours. But when I have a P30 trs break at 5k, P7's firing pin bushing disintegrate at 7K shortly followed by a drop safety spring come out in pieces, and metal loss in the chamber at 11k, I think I have enough grounds for a reasonable doubt. Unless the above examples are fair wear for the round count.

Just to reemphasize again: this is purely an academic observation, I couldn't care less in practical sense. More than that, my position is that if I am beating a couple of HKs into a wear and parts breakage, then I am doing something right.

Oh, you're one of "those guys". Good thing you're not running a "MIM" special.

CCT125US
09-22-2012, 12:49 PM
YVK.. was the blemish in the chamber a scratch or erosion? Granted this would be hard to tell, but is one end deeper perhaps indicating a scratch or does it look more like erosion from escaping gases? Or was it a build up of brass / copper? I only ask because my Dillon crimp die had what I thought were scratches until I got a dental pick and brass started flaking off.

YVK
09-22-2012, 01:27 PM
YVK.. was the blemish in the chamber a scratch or erosion? Granted this would be hard to tell, but is one end deeper perhaps indicating a scratch or does it look more like erosion from escaping gases? Or was it a build up of brass / copper? I only ask because my Dillon crimp die had what I thought were scratches until I got a dental pick and brass started flaking off.

I don't believe it is copper. First, most of my ammo is Blazer. Second, I used some KG copper remover and bore polish, and dull edge of a scraper to get all the gunk. Scratch vs erosion, I don't really know, never seen erosion before. Frankly, my guess is both. I think this area got scratched somehow, and now is more prone to erosion along the path of escaping gasses.
I don't believe for a second it had anything to do with stoppage, but if it keeps happening, I'll send the barrel to HK for an inspection. The accuracy is not affected either: I shot a 5-shot 2.5 inch group unsupported after the stoppage happened.

TGS
09-22-2012, 09:52 PM
YVK,

How many rounds did this go before you cleaned it?

YVK
09-22-2012, 09:58 PM
YVK,

How many rounds did this go before you cleaned it?

TGS, it's been a long day for me so forgive my obtuseness: are you asking when I cleaned it last time? If that's the question, then anywhere from 500 to 1K ago.

Chuck Haggard
09-22-2012, 11:22 PM
The brass being partially out of the chamber leads me to think either gunk under the extractor hook causing it to slip off, or maybe the spring that powers the extractor is getting weak and you might have experienced extractor bounce.
Or both.

TGS
09-23-2012, 09:46 AM
TGS, it's been a long day for me so forgive my obtuseness: are you asking when I cleaned it last time? If that's the question, then anywhere from 500 to 1K ago.

Yup, exactly that. To me that doesn't seem like it would cause enough fouling to create problems with an in-spec gun unless your cleanings had never touched the extractor or chamber. If these parts had been cleaned, and there was as much fouling as you noted in a prior post within firing only 1000 rounds, then I'd look at something being wrong with the ammo. 1000 rounds of good ammo isn't enough to cause significant fouling, IME.

Maybe a fluke? It shouldn't need a new extractor spring yet, and 1 stoppage in 11,000 rounds doesn't seem indicative of a defective spring either.

God, HKs are so horrible. Other gun owners have real problems. Here we are trying to figure out why it had one stoppage in 11,000 rounds. **gets a shiver** :p

GJM
09-23-2012, 01:51 PM
I have no data to support this, but as I said to YVK directly, I wonder whether in the range of ammo the P30 was designed for, whether 147+P is at the edge of that envelope?

In terms of HK reliability, the one stoppage just experienced by YVK doesn't bother me much. On the broken TRS, I think that reinforces the argument for a shooter and a carry copy, so high volume shooting and dry firing are on the shooter pistol.

JodyH
09-23-2012, 04:18 PM
I had several very similar malfunctions from my P30 when shooting Aguila ammo.
I think the P30's stepped chamber is not tolerant of out of spec casings.

YVK
09-23-2012, 08:01 PM
Yup, exactly that. To me that doesn't seem like it would cause enough fouling to create problems with an in-spec gun unless your cleanings had never touched the extractor or chamber. If these parts had been cleaned, and there was as much fouling as you noted in a prior post within firing only 1000 rounds, then I'd look at something being wrong with the ammo. 1000 rounds of good ammo isn't enough to cause significant fouling, IME.

Maybe a fluke? It shouldn't need a new extractor spring yet, and 1 stoppage in 11,000 rounds doesn't seem indicative of a defective spring either.

God, HKs are so horrible. Other gun owners have real problems. Here we are trying to figure out why it had one stoppage in 11,000 rounds. **gets a shiver** :p

Everybody needs something to bitch about...I want to take H&K down from the pedestal of infallibility...I am a Deutche-phobe...pick one :)

I agree that the chamber fouling shouldn't have been an issue; even though I didn't put a ton effort of keeping the gun super-clean, what I did still beats the hell out of Todd's routine of cleaning his every 9 thousand or so rounds..
Faulty ammo could've been been a factor, but then again it was the freaking HST for 25 bucks a box, although of course nothing is immune from lapses of QC. Ironically, 2000 rounds of Aguila has caused me no grief so far...

I appreciate everybody's input. I think we should return to this post in 11K rounds.

Kyle Reese
09-23-2012, 08:54 PM
Everybody needs something to bitch about...I want to take H&K down from the pedestal of infallibility...I am a Deutche-phobe...pick one :

I agree that the chamber fouling shouldn't have been an issue; even though I didn't put a ton effort of keeping the gun super-clean, what I did still beats the hell out of Todd's routine of cleaning his every 9 thousand or so rounds..
Faulty ammo could've been been a factor, but then again it was the freaking HST for 25 bucks a box, although of course nothing is immune from lapses of QC. Ironically, 2000 rounds of Aguila has caused me no grief so far...

I appreciate everybody's input. I think we should return to this post in 11K rounds.

I certainly appreciate your posts in this thread. At the end of the day, a firearm is just a mechanical item, designed, manufactured and used by human beings. All of them will eventually experience problems / maintenance issues if used alot (as they should be).

I get more annoyed with the people who buy a gun, fire 27 rounds thru it, and blather on the interwebz about it being "flawless", etc.