Shooting Tires

[UNK]

What is policy or best practice on shooting tires of an occupied vehicle? In both a vehicle sitting in place or in a vehicle attempting to leave a scene. For example if they have kidnapped a person and that person is in the vehicle. Or in another scenario if they have just commited a violent crime and are attempting to leave the scene.
Should the tires be shot from the side or from the rear or front? Are there specific hazards to be aware of? Is there a certain speed limit at which above the particular speed it shouldnt be attempted. Im assuming that the skills of the shooter would make it most likely the tire would be hit.
Please dont speculate Im only interested in replies from people who have specific training or procedures to follow in this type of event. Im asking from a citizen viewpoint. Legalities also are a concern.

ETA This is assuming a 9mm pistol with quality bonded ammo.

[OlongJohnson]

All your other good questions aside, strictly from a tire technology perspective, the sidewall is going to be easier to penetrate than the tread surface. But it might be difficult to hit nowadays with all the low profile tires around. I'm an old man yelling at clouds when I say a passenger car tire should have a minimum of 3.5, preferably 4 inches of sidewall height. And the first ~3/4 inch of that will be behind the wheel lip. So it's a pretty narrow band.

[UNK]

All your other good questions aside, strictly from a tire technology perspective, the sidewall is going to be easier to penetrate than the tread surface. But it might be difficult to hit nowadays with all the low profile tires around. I'm an old man yelling at clouds when I say a passenger car tire should have a minimum of 3.5, preferably 4 inches of sidewall height. And the first ~3/4 inch of that will be behind the wheel lip. So it's a pretty narrow band.

I hadnt considered low profile tires. My questions supposed a nearly straight on shot but a shot at an angle should also be considered. Im sure thats not the only thing I didnt think of.

[secondstoryguy]

The textbook/best way to do it is with a rifle and shoot for the rim. Instant deflation. A pistol round will not penetrate the rim. A pistol/rifle round to the sidewall or tire will eventually deflate the tire but it takes a while.

[UNK]

The best way to do it is with a rifle and shoot for the rim. Instant deflation. A pistol round will not penetrate the rim. A pistol/rifle round to the sidewall or tire will eventually deflate the tire but it takes a while.

Sorry I just did an ETA on the original post probably while you were typing your reply. This is assuming pistol only as thats what is most likely to be available for immediate response.

How long is a while? Which text book are you referring to?

[Half Moon]

Sorry I just did an ETA on the original post probably while you were typing your reply. This is assuming pistol only as thats what is most likely to be available for immediate response.

How long is a while?

Not affiliated or even really familiar with this blog (though the name sounds familiar) but came up early in search results for "shooting out a tire":

https://www.wideners.com/blog/mythbusting-shooting-a-tire/

[UNK]

Not affiliated or even really familiar with this blog (though the name sounds familiar) but came up early in search results for "shooting out a tire":

https://www.wideners.com/blog/mythbusting-shooting-a-tire/

I dont see how that test is completely relevant as it doesnt have the weight of the car on the tire. It also has a lot of speculation. A LOT.

Im going to repeat Im looking for people who have TRAINING, PROTOCOLS TO FOLLOW AND POSSIBLY REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE NOT SPECULATION ON THIS SCENARIO.
Im assuming the most informed will be LE, Military or those trained in Personal Protection with ammo specifically used in those professions.

[OlongJohnson]

Also, heavy duty tires may have strong enough construction that a pistol round hitting at an oblique angle won't even penetrate the sidewall. Thinking Load Range E on 2500/3500 light trucks, plus medium duty stuff and up if you're thinking about the rented box truck scenario.

I remember a police chase in SoCal back when they were televised live (amazing how they more or less stopped happening when the networks all agreed to stop broadcasting live). A box truck drove around for several miles with no tires on the metal rims on at least one corner. So stopping the tires doesn't necessarily stop the vehicle. It's a timer, and not a very good one. Stopping the driver will stop the vehicle sooner than a flat or even debeaded tire, but then there are other issues raised by a driverless vehicle. And that's about the edge of my lane on this. I'm a tire guy.

[secondstoryguy]

Sorry I just did an ETA on the original post probably while you were typing your reply. This is assuming pistol only as thats what is most likely to be available for immediate response.

How long is a while? Which text book are you referring to?

Textbook as it the way its done by people who do it for a living. The hole in the tire seals up after the bullet goes through so about like about the speed that a large nail/puncture would cause...five or ten minutes...sometimes a long time if its a particularly thick/heavy duty tire. Like someone said large multi-ply tires can sometimes prevent a handgun from penetrating if shot at an angle.

[UNK]

Textbook as it the way its done by people who do it for a living. The hole in the tire seals up after the bullet goes through so about like about the speed that a large nail/puncture would cause...five or ten minutes...sometimes a long time if its a particularly thick/heavy duty tire. Like someone said large multi-ply tires can sometimes prevent a handgun from penetrating if shot at an angle.

Do you have training in this subject?

[secondstoryguy]

Do you have training in this subject?

Yep, first hand., with a variety of tires.

[Half Moon]

I dont see how that test is completely relevant as it doesnt have the weight of the car on the tire. It also has a lot of speculation. A LOT.

Im going to repeat Im looking for people who have TRAINING, PROTOCOLS TO FOLLOW AND POSSIBLY REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE NOT SPECULATION ON THIS SCENARIO.
Im assuming the most informed will be LE, Military or those trained in Personal Protection with ammo specifically used in those professions.

It was a data point. Whether a good one or not??? Real world, I've seen pistol, rifle, and shotgun calibers fail to penetrate an unmounted steel belted radial at a hundred yards. What that mean to your scenario, no idea. Bowing out.

[Caballoflaco]

If you’re shooting at the tires of an occupied vehicle, you better have a justifiable reason to accidentally kill anyone who is in the car or general vicinity of the car if they catch one of your misses. And if you have a justifiable reason to use deadly force against occupants of the car I don’t know why you would want to shoot the tires and not the person who is posing you or another the threat of serious bodily injury or death.


Getting your tactics from 1970’s TV shows is a terrible idea. I’m not an expert here, but in the hundreds of actual police chases I’ve watched on YouTube in the last 10 years not once has a police officer shot at the tires of a car. That should be a clue.

[secondstoryguy]

In Texas DPS troopers were authorized to shoot out tires up untill a few years ago...like out the window of a moving vehicle....maybe get with them:) They used shotguns for the most part IIRC.

[UNK]

Also, heavy duty tires may have strong enough construction that a pistol round hitting at an oblique angle won't even penetrate the sidewall. Thinking Load Range E on 2500/3500 light trucks, plus medium duty stuff and up if you're thinking about the rented box truck scenario.

I remember a police chase in SoCal back when they were televised live (amazing how they more or less stopped happening when the networks all agreed to stop broadcasting live). A box truck drove around for several miles with no tires on the metal rims on at least one corner. So stopping the tires doesn't necessarily stop the vehicle. It's a timer, and not a very good one. Stopping the driver will stop the vehicle sooner than a flat or even debeaded tire, but then there are other issues raised by a driverless vehicle. And that's about the edge of my lane on this. I'm a tire guy.

The situation that caused this question is a person was babysitting a child. The scene was a corner lot with a pretty decent distance from the corner of the garage to the sidewalk. The child was riding a bike and went onto the side walk. A pickup truck was coming down the street and slowed down close to the child. The person watching the childs first thought was abduction. She took off running towards the child and had to cover 30-40 yards. Thankfully the truck drove on and it was a non incident.
I dont know anything about shooting tires, what really happens to the tire, the ability to operate the vehicle or if there is a down range concern. Im guessing that one or two flat tires would be a big hinderance in driving and surely would make the vehicle easier to identify. Theres all king of ways to play the above scenario out but Im just interested in the tire part.

[UNK]

If you’re shooting at the tires of an occupied vehicle, you better have a justifiable reason to accidentally kill anyone who is in the car or general vicinity of the car if they catch one of your misses. And if you have a justifiable reason to use deadly force against occupants of the car I don’t know why you would want to shoot the tires and not the person who is posing you or another the threat of serious bodily injury or death.


Getting your tactics from 1970’s TV shows is a terrible idea. I’m not an expert here, but in the hundreds of actual police chases I’ve watched on YouTube in the last 10 years not once has a police officer shot at the tires of a car. That should be a clue.

I just want some clarification on shooting tires. Is it effective or not? Is there a best way to do it and if subjected to different variables when is it most likely to not succeed.
I thought this would be covered in training in certain fields and since we have a lot of LE there would be some knowledgable responses.
I think i covered in the OP an abduction, shooter being skilled enough to make the shot, legal concerns, down range concerns.
For example is there a pass through concern with for example 9mm. That would be through the sidewall or through the tread. Is there a degree of angle at which it is unlikely to succeed and may present a deflection or ricochet issue. Is there a certain speed at which the speed of the vehicle it becomes an issue.
Its a theoretical question which has only to do with shooting tires.

[UNK]

It was a data point. Whether a good one or not??? Real world, I've seen pistol, rifle, and shotgun calibers fail to penetrate an unmounted steel belted radial at a hundred yards. What that mean to your scenario, no idea. Bowing out.

Unmounted tires has nothing to do with this scenario.

[DDTSGM]

I was an EVOC Instructor and a firearms instructor for many years - over 30.

The first problem with your scenario is actually making the shot - regardless of with pistol or rifle. You will be shooting at fairly small 'bands' on the front or rear of the spinning rim.

Just for fun I measured my Dodge Ram's cross section with a ruler - visible tire sidewall about 6 inches, edge of rim to spoke about 3 inches.

That target is going to be moving 1.46666 (let's call it 1.5) feet per second per MPH of speed. So as the car accelerates away. from a dead stop. it will be going from 0 FPS to 30 FPS within a couple seconds. It's going to be problematic establishing and holding a proper lead under those conditions..

In training our recruits to engage moving targets with handgun and shotgun we ran the mover at steady speeds to introduce them to the concepts of what we called 'steady hold' which was establishing a lead and maintaining it; 'overtaking' which was another way to say pass through shooting; and 'ambush' which was simply picking a point along the targets path of travel and firing before the target reached your point of aim. Given a steady speed, advice on the lead to take, and a couple of practice runs most folks could put rounds on target. Bobbing and weaving or accelerating is a different matter.

As others have mentioned, cars can drive a long way on flats. I once followed a drunk who had hit a concrete bridge and pretty much wiped out his right front end for about three miles, the last one of which was on the rim of the truck with the rim angled about 45 degrees out. All kinds of sparks.

I'm fully on board with LE policies that proscribe shooting at moving vehicles or their occupants unless the vehicle poses a direct threat to life which cannot be avoided.

[Lon]

Shooting the tire anywhere with a pistol round will eventually cause it to deflate, but it takes a while. Bad guy will be able to drive away without any issue. I may have some old video comparing shooting the rubber vs. shooting the rim. Shooting the rim w a pistol is a waste of time. Done this many times in trainings to show the difference. It’s also common to have a student accidentally shoot a tire while shooting under the vehicle. Takes a while to notice the tire is going flat.

[DDTSGM]

It’s also common to have a student accidentally shoot a tire while shooting under the vehicle. Takes a while to notice the tire is going flat.

The very first time I got a wrecked car to use on the range the boss told me 'better take the tires off and put it on blocks.' Nah, I knew better. Learned my lesson. Well, actually learned to have spares that fit.

[UNK]

Yep, first hand., with a variety of tires.

Where did you obtain this type of training and experience?

[Utm]

Most LE agencies I know of do not allow you to shoot tires, if deadly force is needed then it is on the operator of the vehicle. I am not sure you'll get a lot of comments from LE dudes with specific training on this topic.

[UNK]

Thanks to both of you for posting your first hand knowledge. What is the difference in shooting the tire from the side and the tread? Will a 9mm penetrate the steel treads? Im talking on a normal tire on a car or 1/2 ton pickup not a heavy duty tire. I assume it would take even longer for a tread shot to deflate vs a side wall shot?



I was an EVOC Instructor and a firearms instructor for many years - over 30.

The first problem with your scenario is actually making the shot - regardless of with pistol or rifle. You will be shooting at fairly small 'bands' on the front or rear of the spinning rim.

Just for fun I measured my Dodge Ram's cross section with a ruler - visible tire sidewall about 6 inches, edge of rim to spoke about 3 inches.

That target is going to be moving 1.46666 (let's call it 1.5) feet per second per MPH of speed. So as the car accelerates away. from a dead stop. it will be going from 0 FPS to 30 FPS within a couple seconds. It's going to be problematic establishing and holding a proper lead under those conditions..

In training our recruits to engage moving targets with handgun and shotgun we ran the mover at steady speeds to introduce them to the concepts of what we called 'steady hold' which was establishing a lead and maintaining it; 'overtaking' which was another way to say pass through shooting; and 'ambush' which was simply picking a point along the targets path of travel and firing before the target reached your point of aim. Given a steady speed, advice on the lead to take, and a couple of practice runs most folks could put rounds on target. Bobbing and weaving or accelerating is a different matter.

As others have mentioned, cars can drive a long way on flats. I once followed a drunk who had hit a concrete bridge and pretty much wiped out his right front end for about three miles, the last one of which was on the rim of the truck with the rim angled about 45 degrees out. All kinds of sparks.

I'm fully on board with LE policies that proscribe shooting at moving vehicles or their occupants unless the vehicle poses a direct threat to life which cannot be avoided.


Shooting the tire anywhere with a pistol round will eventually cause it to deflate, but it takes a while. Bad guy will be able to drive away without any issue. I may have some old video comparing shooting the rubber vs. shooting the rim. Shooting the rim w a pistol is a waste of time. Done this many times in trainings to show the difference. It’s also common to have a student accidentally shoot a tire while shooting under the vehicle. Takes a while to notice the tire is going flat.

[secondstoryguy]

Where did you obtain this type of training and experience?
10 years LEO (Current), ~6 years on a Tier one SWAT team and 8 years in the military. Plus I grew up in Texas and I've shot alot of random shit when I was growing up to include tires (don't ask:))

[UNK]

Most LE agencies I know of do not allow you to shoot tires, if deadly force is needed then it is on the operator of the vehicle. I am not sure you'll get a lot of comments from LE dudes with specific training on this topic.

I received a couple of excellent replies upthread. As I said and explained further one of the scenarios was about an abduction. This is all theoretical Im not planning on shooting any tires and I surely would not want to create a danger to bystanders or the victim. I just wanted to know what happens if you shoot a tire.

[UNK]

10 years LEO (Current), ~6 years on a Tier one SWAT team and 8 years in the military. Plus I grew up in Texas and I've shot alot of random shit when I was growing up to include tires (don't ask:))

Perfect thank you. That is very helpful.

[Lon]

Thanks to both of you for posting your first hand knowledge. What is the difference in shooting the tire from the side and the tread? Will a 9mm penetrate the steel treads? Im talking on a normal tire on a car or 1/2 ton pickup not a heavy duty tire. I assume it would take even longer for a tread shot to deflate vs a side wall shot?

I don’t remember if there was a difference in time to deflate between the sidewall and tread. We go over shooting tires as a “it ain’t like the movies” kinda thing. Basically, we show them shooting the rubber is pretty much a waste of time and if you absolutely, positively need to deflate a tire for some reason, use a rifle (all our cars have them) and shoot the rim.

[UNK]

I don’t remember if there was a difference in time to deflate between the sidewall and tread. We go over shooting tires as a “it ain’t like the movies” kinda thing. Basically, we show them shooting the rubber is pretty much a waste of time and if you absolutely, positively need to deflate a tire for some reason, use a rifle (all our cars have them) and shoot the rim.

Thank you. Much appreciated.

[Tranvaal]

https://clucas.com/ammunition/tyre-deflation-round/

94586

[OlongJohnson]

The situation that caused this question is a person was babysitting a child. The scene was a corner lot with a pretty decent distance from the corner of the garage to the sidewalk. The child was riding a bike and went onto the side walk. A pickup truck was coming down the street and slowed down close to the child. The person watching the childs first thought was abduction. She took off running towards the child and had to cover 30-40 yards. Thankfully the truck drove on and it was a non incident.

As you describe it, it sounds like it may have been an appropriately defensive driver, reducing speed in case the kid did something stupid like entering the street.

[Rex G]

Vehicles can drive on deflated tires for quite a few miles, and then continue, on bare rims, for a number of more miles. Eventually, the rims will wear, to the point that something on the body starts dragging. Have been there, have seen that, as the one doing the chasing, and having monitored chases on the radio.

Some thoughts:

Shooting at a fleeing car would probably be legally considered to be using deadly force against anyone and everyone inside that car. A best practice would be to have pre-acquainted one’s self with a very, very capable lawyer.

As a practical matter, shooting at felon(s) inside a car means shooting at the individual felon(s) occupying the car. There is a reason that I chose to use a .41 Magnum duty revolver, from 1985 to 1990, when proactive enforcement, usually involving persons inside vehicles, was my primary assignment. (Shooting at fleeing cars was not generally allowed, but returning fire, at persons inside cars, was generally OK.)

Keep in mind that an adult, snatching a kicking-and-screaming child, and then driving away inside a vehicle, may be a legal, custodial parent recovering their own runaway child.

Marksmanship, under stress, had better be a priority.

When driving, I generally do slow down, considerably, when about to pass a child on a bike. They tend to swerve unexpectedly, and sometimes tend to tip over.

[Rex G]

As you describe it, it sounds like it may have been an appropriately defensive driver, reducing speed in case the kid did something stupid like entering the street.

Amen!

[UNK]

As you describe it, it sounds like it may have been an appropriately defensive driver, reducing speed in case the kid did something stupid like entering the street.

The caregiver is the one who told me the story. She specifically said abduction was her fear. I wasnt there so I have to rely on her description. Shes a solid person not given to panic or exageration and also the grandmother. Its a fairly new high end neighborhood but not gated. Its also the first house after the only neighborhood entrance.
Having read Gift of Fear numerous times Im a big fan of trust your instincts.

[AMC]

Shooting at tires is not a thing taught anymore by any civilian LE agency that I am aware of, and in my opinion if anybody is doing it they are out of their fucking minds. We no longer get our tactical concepts from 1970s Cop Shows....or shouldn't. There may be some training related to this in use by certain military or Federal agencies related to a PSD type role, or overseas counter terrorist operations. We do have some folks on the forum whose backgrounds may include something like that.....

[Magsz]

I received a couple of excellent replies upthread. As I said and explained further one of the scenarios was about an abduction. This is all theoretical Im not planning on shooting any tires and I surely would not want to create a danger to bystanders or the victim. I just wanted to know what happens if you shoot a tire.

Your time would be better spent getting the tag info, a REALLY good description of the vehicle and immediately calling 911. Depending on your area, response time should be really damned quick. I don't encourage the public getting directly involved but should that child be abducted, and you're near a vehicle, hop on in and tail the target vehicle until LE acquire the vehicle.

There are way too many variables involved in you firing a gun at a moving vehicle that now has a kidnapping victim inside of it. The vast majority of those variables are not good ones.

This is a very, very weird discussion.

[UNK]

Your time would be better spent getting the tag info, a REALLY good description of the vehicle and immediately calling 911. Depending on your area, response time should be really damned quick. I don't encourage the public getting directly involved but should that child be abducted, and you're near a vehicle, hop on in and tail the target vehicle until LE acquire the vehicle.

There are way too many variables involved in you firing a gun at a moving vehicle that now has a kidnapping victim inside of it. The vast majority of those variables are not good ones.

This is a very, very weird discussion.

I asked about shooting tires and specified SMEs to reply. Did you happen to notice that two people with direct experience, stated their credentials/experience and then proceeded to answer the question asked with no drama?
I dont think theres anything weird about asking about something I have no knowledge of, on a forum full of SMEs in just about any subject you want to bring up.

[Magsz]

I asked about shooting tires and specified SMEs to reply. Did you happen to notice that two people with direct experience, stated their credentials/experience and then proceeded to answer the question asked with no drama?
I dont think theres anything weird about asking about something I have no knowledge of, on a forum full of SMEs in just about any subject you want to bring up.

Why not buy some used tires and go shoot them with various calibers?

[UNK]

Why not buy some used tires and go shoot them with various calibers?

That would be of limited usefullness and low reliability. Id rather ask an SME. Their replies gave me enough information.

[Rex G]

Why not buy some used tires and go shoot them with various calibers?

Tires rolling at high speed, with a vehicle’s weight on them, will behave differently than a tire that is just sitting there.

[Magsz]

Tires rolling at high speed, with a vehicle’s weight on them, will behave differently than a tire that is just sitting there.

Shrug.

So will windshields in motion. We still shoot stationary windshields.

If we want to be realistic, I would think that stationary tires would be a more realistic medium to shoot through. High risk felony stops, the prevalence of parked vehicles in urban environments etc.

[WobblyPossum]

As AMC already mentioned, any discussion of shooting tires of a moving vehicle should probably include some discussion of the laws and policies of doing so. I’m unaware of a law enforcement agency that allows officers to purposely shoot at a moving vehicle in an effort to disable it other than two specific DHS components with very specific mission sets in limited circumstances. There might be a few others with similar mission sets of which I don’t know the specific policy but it won’t be more than a handful. My agency specifically prohibits doing so, as did my previous agency. Every agency policy I’m aware of, other than the two previously mentioned, only allows you to target an occupant of a vehicle if you can articulate the occupant is a deadly force threat, not the vehicle itself. We shoot at people. We don’t shoot at cars. Discharging a firearm is a use of deadly force whether you’re targeting a person, an animal, or a vehicle. The laws surrounding using deadly force are generally pretty clear and unambiguous. If you end up purposely shooting at the tires of a moving vehicle, expect to answer some hard questions in court. I’d be surprised if the prosecution doesn’t mention that even the police aren’t generally allowed to target the vehicle itself so what makes it ok for you to do so?

[Chance]

I dont know anything about shooting tires, what really happens to the tire, the ability to operate the vehicle or if there is a down range concern.

Paul Howe covered this topic in his Vehicle Defense video he made with Panteao, including a demo on a stationary vehicle. It's definitely worth the time if you can find a copy.

[BWT]

Just cruising the forum and offering a thought.

Would something like a slug perform better in this capacity than a rifle? Just thinking of a 1 ounce slug (google says 450-ish grains) versus a 55-75 gr bullet.

Any testing on that? I just see pistol/rifle as the only option discussed.

[HCM]

As AMC already mentioned, any discussion of shooting tires of a moving vehicle should probably include some discussion of the laws and policies of doing so. I’m unaware of a law enforcement agency that allows officers to purposely shoot at a moving vehicle in an effort to disable it other than two specific DHS components with very specific mission sets in limited circumstances. There might be a few others with similar mission sets of which I don’t know the specific policy but it won’t be more than a handful. My agency specifically prohibits doing so, as did my previous agency. Every agency policy I’m aware of, other than the two previously mentioned, only allows you to target an occupant of a vehicle if you can articulate the occupant is a deadly force threat, not the vehicle itself. We shoot at people. We don’t shoot at cars. Discharging a firearm is a use of deadly force whether you’re targeting a person, an animal, or a vehicle. The laws surrounding using deadly force are generally pretty clear and unambiguous. If you end up purposely shooting at the tires of a moving vehicle, expect to answer some hard questions in court. I’d be surprised if the prosecution doesn’t mention that even the police aren’t generally allowed to target the vehicle itself so what makes it ok for you to do so?

TX DPS still authorizes shooting at vehicles to disable them in certain circumstances, though after a border incident a few years ago they may no longer do so from aircraft.

They are an old school and unique agency. The saying goes there's the right way, the wrong way and the DPS way....

That said, it's generally a bad idea for all the previously cited reasons.

[UNK]

As AMC already mentioned, any discussion of shooting tires of a moving vehicle should probably include some discussion of the laws and policies of doing so. I’m unaware of a law enforcement agency that allows officers to purposely shoot at a moving vehicle in an effort to disable it other than two specific DHS components with very specific mission sets in limited circumstances. There might be a few others with similar mission sets of which I don’t know the specific policy but it won’t be more than a handful. My agency specifically prohibits doing so, as did my previous agency. Every agency policy I’m aware of, other than the two previously mentioned, only allows you to target an occupant of a vehicle if you can articulate the occupant is a deadly force threat, not the vehicle itself. We shoot at people. We don’t shoot at cars. Discharging a firearm is a use of deadly force whether you’re targeting a person, an animal, or a vehicle. The laws surrounding using deadly force are generally pretty clear and unambiguous. If you end up purposely shooting at the tires of a moving vehicle, expect to answer some hard questions in court. I’d be surprised if the prosecution doesn’t mention that even the police aren’t generally allowed to target the vehicle itself so what makes it ok for you to do so?

I googled it not surprisingly based on whats been said here theres not a lot of hits. Heres a couple that were recent

NYPD 2022 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-cop-fires-shot-at-car-on-belt-parkway-20220410-37kj4zvunbd53mphy6mwvoq5uu-story.html

Newton County 2022 https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox4beaumont .com/amp/news/community-news/officers-shoot-out-tires-stop-driver-who-fled-at-speeds-of-90-100-mph-in-newton-county

[BN]

I started as a reserve with the local PD in 1980. One of the things that the Chief told me was that we no longer were allowed to shoot the tires out on speeders who wouldn't stop. So I guess there's some history about not shooting tires.

I wondered what would happen with run flat tires. A lot of newer cars have them and don't even have a spare tire.

[SWAT Lt.]

What is policy or best practice on shooting tires of an occupied vehicle? In both a vehicle sitting in place or in a vehicle attempting to leave a scene. For example if they have kidnapped a person and that person is in the vehicle. Or in another scenario if they have just commited a violent crime and are attempting to leave the scene.
Should the tires be shot from the side or from the rear or front? Are there specific hazards to be aware of? Is there a certain speed limit at which above the particular speed it shouldnt be attempted. Im assuming that the skills of the shooter would make it most likely the tire would be hit.
Please dont speculate Im only interested in replies from people who have specific training or procedures to follow in this type of event. Im asking from a citizen viewpoint. Legalities also are a concern.

ETA This is assuming a 9mm pistol with quality bonded ammo.

Tires I've seen shot in the tread or sidewall lose air, that's about it. No magic, no blow outs IME. It is prohibited by most, if not all, US LE agencies because the practice is very dangerous and also ineffective. I am personnaly aware of one instance, back in the day, where a tire was shot and the bullet ended up striking the driver of the vehicle. I cannot envision a scenario, including kidnapping, where it would be a good idea to shoot at a tire. That applies to LE and especially to civilians. Do so at your own significant criminal and civil peril.

[Hambo]

Shooting to disable a moving car (tires/engine) was an absolute no-go by policy. Shooting to disable a driver/shooter in a moving car was within policy under certain circumstances. On SWAT, we tested our ability to disable parked vehicles by shooting tires and engines. Tire deflation was slow, and we didn't pack the gear to reliably disable an engine.

[TSH]

I just want some clarification on shooting tires. Is it effective or not? Is there a best way to do it and if subjected to different variables when is it most likely to not succeed.
I thought this would be covered in training in certain fields and since we have a lot of LE there would be some knowledgable responses.

It is not effective.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just as an anecdote, from my other hobby. A coin store in Colorado was robbed years ago. The owner ran out and shot at the get away tires. He was arrested for whatever the charge is for shooting at get away tires. We had a stack of tires holding up a stand at a match. A guy shot one with a light load 45 ACP from a 625. Round bounced off the thread and hit a guy in the chest. I saw it coming back. Big bruise but thankfully that was all.

[Caballoflaco]

UNK this video seemed appropriate for this thread.

1578105574331281409

[Caballoflaco]

This link should play the video here.

1577785981104627712

[Outpost75]

Do you have training in this subject?



FBI National Academy and USMC Embassy Guard School 2000s. NEVER shoot at tires on a moving vehicle. Handgun rounds 9mm or .357 have little or no effect. Rifle rounds striking wheel rim will likely riccochet and hit vehicle occupants.

To stop the car within 200 -300 metres without danger to hostages use spike strips. Otherwise you need 6-10 hits of 7.62mm rifle fire in the engine compartment or just shoot the driver! If limited to 5.56mm rifle fire concentrate fire on the driver, NOT the engine compartment.

Only sure fire method to stop moving vehicle borne improvised explosive device is an AT4 antitank weapon from a safe stand off distance of 200 metres or more from behind SUBSTANTIAL cover. A long burst of 6-10 rounds of cal .50 BMG linked APM8 and API M20 into engine compartment will usually halt vehicle within 50-100 metres.

[Outpost75]

Shooting at tires is not a thing taught anymore by any civilian LE agency that I am aware of, and in my opinion if anybody is doing it they are out of their fucking minds. We no longer get our tactical concepts from 1970s Cop Shows....or shouldn't. There may be some training related to this in use by certain military or Federal agencies related to a PSD type role, or overseas counter terrorist operations. We do have some folks on the forum whose backgrounds may include something like that.....

My training is dated, immediately post 9-11 dealing with VBIED threats trying to enter military bases, federal court houses or overseas diplomatic missions. Detailed response posted separately. Short version don't shoot at tires. Shoot the driver!

Use spike strips when possible if friendlies are hostages.

[HCM]

A recent article from American Cop magazine on shooting at moving vehicles:


Shooting at moving vehicles

https://americancop.com/shooting-at-moving-vehicles/