Critical Review of a Kimber 1911

[BLR]

The last thread on Kimbers and their issues got my curiosity up. Lot's of opinions. Not much solid data. What I hope this to turn into is a data point in the discussion. Statistically, the argument can easily be made that this is not a representative sample size, and there is a great deal of validity to that. That said, it beats out conjecture IMHO.

Here is the subject of the discussion (next to the reference point, a known reliable Wilson CQB Elite):

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20120921-01213_zps87859798.jpg

A comparison is necessary because standardized dimensions don't exist. Therefore, measuring against a known good reference is the next best option. Please don't construe this as a critique of Kimber. First, comparing a $1k kimber to a $3.5k Wilson isn't really "fair." What I intend on doing is comparing the critical dimensions of the Kimber to the Wilson. This includes extractor shape and tension, ejector shape, slide stop shape and geometry, feed ramp geometry and breech face geometry.

Some pictures of the parts:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20120921-01215_zpsb6fef739.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20120921-01225_zpseb94c907.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20120921-01224_zps853cca4b.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Beavercreek-20120921-01222_zps0297bbbf.jpg

First thing I noticed was corrosion on the barrel just forward of the chamber. Which means I'm going to be eating crow on another forum. It also means the stainless steel Kimber uses is a very low chrome steel. I'm unsure of the logic behind this, because 410 wouldn't have corroded in this case.

More tomorrow when I have both next to each other on the surface plate.

Thanks!

[JDM]

Looking forward to this.

[ToddG]

Concur. This has EPIC written all over it.

[LittleLebowski]

I have personally experienced and heard many recountings of the Kimber barrels rusting. Not on the Series I that I still own but rather on a happily departed CDP II. Rusted overnight, seemingly.

[Mjolnir]

Yep. I hang out at gun stores - kills the urge to purchase anything - and I've noticed surface corrosion is not at all uncommon on Kimber's stainless steel barrels. I will lube 1911s sitting in cases as some are "dry" and if you let the Kimber's get lose lube "you can hear the corrosion." A damned shame...

[BLR]

Adding a Desert Warrior, CQB-E and a Colt S80 to the mix.

A cursory examination of these guns indicates if there is something really out of wack with Kimber, it's not present in these two. The 10mm is mine, the DW is a Border Patrol buddy's. Both are stock, save the FLGR on the 10mm.

I'm still stewing over the rust on the barrel. I don't like eating crow.

[fixer]

wow. that is a disturbing amount of rust.

[Kyle Reese]

wow. that is a disturbing amount of rust.

Agreed.

I'll be following this closely. Looking forward to more info!

[SecondsCount]

Adding a Desert Warrior, CQB-E and a Colt S80 to the mix.

A cursory examination of these guns indicates if there is something really out of wack with Kimber, it's not present in these two. The 10mm is mine, the DW is a Border Patrol buddy's. Both are stock, save the FLGR on the 10mm.

I'm still stewing over the rust on the barrel. I don't like eating crow.

I am a bit confused. Is the Kimber in the above pictures the same caliber as the Wilson?

Does DW = Dan Wesson? I don't see any pictures of a Dan Wesson??

The issue I have with Kimber is that you can get a good one on Wednesday and a bad one on Thursday. Their quality control is lacking for the price paid.

[BLR]

DW - Desert Warrior. Sure, a sample of one is very questionable. However, it was suggested elsewhere that Kimber uses "different dimensions" for their guns. I'm hoping that, if so we can see it. Also, while only a sample of one, a detailed examination of a couple of Kimbers should be an interesting discussion IMO. Like I said, this is just one data point. But it's hard numbers to look at too.

Some time with a feeler guage, mic, caliper, and test indicator in a vertical mill provided the following.


Extractor:
Gun Hook Depth Hook Width Rim Clearance Tension
10mm CQB 0.035 0.075 0.070 0.0005
10mm Kimber 0.027 0.071 0.074 0.001
EB (unfitted) 0.037 0.067 NA NA
LB PII 0.043 0.070 0.070 0.001
Kimber DW 0.032 0.070 0.075 NONE
Breechface: Perpendicular to Rails Flatness
10mm CQB 0.0003 0.0000
10mm Kimber 0.001 0.001
LB PII 0.0000 0.0005
Kimber DW 0.002 0.0005

Notes:
Inspection of the breech face and extractor indicated that the Kimber extractor had no polishing and minimal beveling. Polishing is of arguable importance, but beveling is vital. Wilson had the most polishing/beveling. The EB and LB extractors, aside from hood depth were virtually identical. The breech face of the Kimbers were fairly smooth, but were the least square and true. I have no idea if the numbers above are "within spec," but I would think so. Neither gun has been "problematic." The Kimber DW extractor had a gross machine error (or file error) on the rear of the extractor hook. This, when inside the gun, was within the frame, so failure due to this is unlikely.
Overall, I'm surprised at the variation hook depths. Otherwise, the guns seem to be fairly consistent.

The extractor measurments were done conventially. The breechface dimensions were taken as follows: the rails were assumed to be the reference point (the validity of this is arguable, but we needed a place to start). A 0.0001" test indicator was used to determine if the breech face was flat and perpendicular to the rails.


Pictures to follow tonight.

[tussery]

I wasn't aware that Kimber used stainless barrels in any of their guns. I thought they were all carbon steel.

[ford.304]

@blr: Just FYI, if you click on the spreadsheet-looking button on the bottom left of the post toolbar, there is a way to include a table in your post. I took the liberty of cleaning those measurements up for you a bit.

Extractor:

GunHookDepthHookWidthRim ClearanceTension
10mm CQB0.0350.0750.0700.0005
10mm Kimber0.0270.0710.0740.001
EB(unfitted)0.0370.067NANA
LB PII0.0430.0700.0700.001
Kimber DW0.032 0.0700.075NONE


Breechface:

GunPerpendicular to RailsFlatness
10mm CQB0.0003 0.0000
10mm Kimber0.001 0.001
LB PII 0.0000 0.0005
Kimber DW0.002 0.0005

[Tamara]

First thing I noticed was corrosion on the barrel just forward of the chamber.

This is my extremely unshocked face. It's disappointing when it happens while they're still in the showcase, but it's absolutely rage-inducing when you're unboxing some of your annual big stocking dealer order and the most expensive gun in the box comes with the barrel pre-rusted. :mad:

ETA: Reading this post aloud caused Gunsmith Bob to chime in that he's polished three this week. I had no idea, since I don't work there anymore. (The reason it's rage inducing is that you do not want to have to field-strip new, unsold 1911s to check for it, but unless the corrosion extends out near the muzzle or onto the barrel hood, the first person who is going to see it is the customer. This is an issue that should have been corrected, and yet has persisted for years.)

[Gewehr3]

I wasn't aware that Kimber used stainless barrels in any of their guns. I thought they were all carbon steel.

I also thought that Kimber barrels were left in the white carbon steel barrels.

[farscott]

Kimber's web site says barrels are "Steel" and the barrel bushings are "Stainless steel." No steel grades are specified, but I would conclude the barrels are not a stainless alloy.

[Tamara]

Kimber's web site says barrels are "Steel" and the barrel bushings are "Stainless steel." No steel grades are specified, but I would conclude the barrels are not a stainless alloy.

It would not shock me to find that this is so. Shooting from the hip, and not having toured Kimber's plant, given the most frequent location of the corrosion it would appear that the guns are given their final erlin' up after assembly and the inaccessible portion of the barrel is just left to fend for itself.

The frequency of complaint is apparently not enough to cut into the bottom line, apparently.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

It would not shock me to find that this is so. Shooting from the hip, and not having toured Kimber's plant, given the most frequent location of the corrosion it would appear that the guns are given their final erlin' up after assembly and the inaccessible portion of the barrel is just left to fend for itself.

The frequency of complaint is apparently not enough to cut into the bottom line, apparently.

When a company will return a gun sent in for repair to a customer with a part missing...

Nothing should be shocking.

[Timbonez]

Kimber references almost all of their barrels as "steel." Their Gold Match, Raptor, and Super Carry pistols are the only ones that I'm aware of coming with stainless steel barrels. All others are carbon steel left in the white, hence the oft mentioned rust on barrels that new owners inherit.

[BLR]

The 45 extractors

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01236_zps89f69a8f.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01238_zps556a7d6c.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01236_zps89f69a8f.jpg

Kimber in the middle.

The 10mm extractors:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01239_zps75ce014f.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01233_zpsef9c7e97.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01234_zpsfde33e45.jpg


Some more random pics:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01226_zpsf09556e0.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01232_zps3ce465b9.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01231_zps55a814ff.jpg

[Tamara]

While reading this thread in gunsmithing the other day, I was amused to note that the little Hall of Shame I had going atop the furnace while I worked there is still there:

1043

Pardon the blurry cell phone pic; I'm on the road and have no access to good image editing software. All but one of the sears are from Kimbers, as is the thumb safety, both ejectors, and the barrel bushing. The broken parts date from a period running from '04 to '06. (There's also a broken MIM trigger bar from a S&W PPK and the cracked breechblock from the rental 228 up there, among the other detritus. The rear sight is from a Filipino 1911 whose owner wanted new sights, so I obligingly drifted that one out with my thumb before turning the pistol over to the 'smiths.)

Granted, it's just a dusty pile of anecdotes, from broken guns I'd hauled back to gunsmithing and subsequently tossed the broken part atop the furnace, and not representative of every broken gun seen in the shop in that time period, but from such anecdotes are my subjective opinions formed.

[SecondsCount]

The 10mm extractors:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120922-01233_zpsef9c7e97.jpg



I see the little tensioning bump is missing on the Kimber. Makes me wonder if they used the same extractor on the 10/40 as the 9mm because for a while the were purposely shipping the 9mm with a 40 breachface.

[BLR]

I see the little tensioning bump is missing on the Kimber. Makes me wonder if they used the same extractor on the 10/40 as the 9mm because for a while the were purposely shipping the 9mm with a 40 breachface.

FYI - those are both Kimber extractors. The black one is from Desert Warrior. Both extractors have machining flaws that cause me concern. The botched cut on the DW one really is nasty in real life.

I'm checking feed ramps and mag well right now. There is a wider variatiion between guns (the feed ramps) than I'd be comfortable with, especially since all these were made on CNC equipment. I'll be using the Colt's as the frame of reference for the 45s, and the Wilson for the 10mm.

Gotta get some work done first, though.

[Tamara]

FYI - those are both Kimber extractors. The black one is from Desert Warrior. Both extractors have machining flaws that cause me concern. The botched cut on the DW one really is nasty in real life.

That lateral seam, do you think that is a casting artifact?

[BLR]

That lateral seam, do you think that is a casting artifact?

No, would be MIM. You can't effectively cast steel w/ a parting mould. It would need to be an investment cast part - meaning no "parting line."

For the record: I'd buy a properly MIM'ed S5 extractor all day long. Foregoing my usual WC Bulletproof extractor w/o hesitation.

Note about that extractor: The bevel on the extractor is nearly non existant. The DW has a great bevel - and no parting line.

[Tamara]

No, would be MIM. You can't effectively cast steel w/ a parting mould. It would need to be an investment cast part - meaning no "parting line."

For the record: I'd buy a properly MIM'ed S5 extractor all day long. Foregoing my usual WC Bulletproof extractor w/o hesitation.

Sorry, that was imprecise terminology on my part.

I'm not at all a MIM hater, although I have grown leery of Kimber's ability to, as you so aptly put it, 'properly MIM'.

FWIW, I don't think that Kimber's problems stem from them using some special, non-standard dimensioning on their pistols, but from an amazingly casual level of QC for the price point, a rarely*-equaled-in-the-industry willingness to allow customers to be beta testers, and a constant quest for cost-cutting measures to increase profit margins on an inherently low-profit-margin design (cf. the aforementioned 9/.40 breechface issue.)


*(*cough4thGenGlockcough*)

[BLR]

Sorry, that was imprecise terminology on my part.

I'm not at all a MIM hater, although I have grown leery of Kimber's ability to, as you so aptly put it, 'properly MIM'.

FWIW, I don't think that Kimber's problems stem from them using some special, non-standard dimensioning on their pistols, but from an amazingly casual level of QC for the price point, a rarely*-equaled-in-the-industry willingness to allow customers to be beta testers, and a constant quest for cost-cutting measures to increase profit margins on an inherently low-profit-margin design (cf. the aforementioned 9/.40 breechface issue.)


*(*cough4thGenGlockcough*)

From what I've seen thus far, I tend to agree. I think the "non standard" dimensions bit is unfounded.

I have a TLEII to look at now too. On examination, the feed ramps of both Kimbers look cut at different orientation to the mag well.

[Wes Peart]

RE the rusting, I work for a master Kimber dealer and maybe 1/5 guns they ship have some form of rust on them out of the box. Guns that have been sitting in the display case longer than a month or so start to get speckling on the barrel or barrel hood regardless of how much oil they have on them initially. We have a bag of steel wool sitting on the gun bench in the back specifically for touching up guns before customers buy them... So this is definitely not a rare occurrence.

I've seen some pretty embarrassing extractors, including ones so tight that the gun would not chamber a round from the magazine because the round couldn't slide under the hook.

[jlw]

We have some Kimbers in inventory for the folks on SRT to use if they so choose. The one our K9 handler was issued was rusting constantly as his air conditioning had to always be on due to the K9. The AC put enough moisture into the cab to rust the pistol. He swapped pistols with one of the guys working in the jail whose pistol had a better finish.

[LittleLebowski]

We have some Kimbers in inventory for the folks on SRT to use if they so choose. The one our K9 handler was issued was rusting constantly as his air conditioning had to always be on due to the K9. The AC put enough moisture into the cab to rust the pistol. He swapped pistols with one of the guys working in the jail whose pistol had a better finish.

Another 1911?

[jlw]

Another 1911?

Yes. The K9 handler had a TLE/RL II, and the other guy had one of the Tactical Entry HD II models.

We are considering trading off the Kimbers on M&P45s but our S&W rep doesn't seem to interested in doing business.

[10mm]

Using flitz is good for removing rust and then ezzox for rust prevention works well.Barricade is said to work well also.I've had good results with flitz and ezzox.No rust problems with 2 Kimbers.
I got a 10mm Dan Wesson and it is very accurate and stainless steel.Would get another DW or Les Baer over a Kimber from now on.Don't want to mess with firing pin safeties during detail stipping anymore.Kimbers not very hard but FPS isn't needed.
Probably going to get a STI tactical 5.0 in 45acp next though.Rail and 12 rounds sound good to me.Hard to find.Might have to order one.

[Tamara]

Using flitz is good for removing rust and then ezzox for rust prevention works well.Barricade is said to work well also.

You know what would be awesome? Kimber applying that **** at the factory so their guns don't rust in transit between 1 Lawton Place, Yonkers, NY* and the recieving dock at their Master Dealers.


*It should tell you everything you need to know about Kimber that after six years away from the retail firearms biz, I still remember their street address. I don't remember Glock's. I don't remember my parents'. (But, then, Christmas and birthdays crop up less often than warranty issues do...)

[_JD_]

Even the "stainless" barrels Kimber uses in some guns (the best reference for this is the feature index in the back of the print catalog/PDF ) will rust up on occasion. I've had some mild discoloration in other carbon steel barrels, but nothing like what I've seen / had on Kimber barrels.

Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.

[BLR]

Though not on a Kimber. This is a "WW" SA.

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120928-01270.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/Liberty-20120928-01269.jpg

This gun is our companies "test mule." Mostly because after I purchased it, I was put off enough not to sell it to anyone. Note the evidence of a very dull cutting tool, and less than rigid fixturing?

The feed ramp, though finished OK, is cut too shallow and off perpendicular to the frame rails by about 5 degrees. Oddly enough, over its 500ish round service life, it functioned w/ ball ammo OK. Take that for what it's worth.

This is the first feed ramp that I've seen that was cut this far out of whack. So don't assume this is normal stuff from Imbel.

ETA: That is a nickel - tungsten - triphosphate - PTFE coating that I've been messing around with for a while, after 1500hrs of acidic (pH 4.5) salt spray. Notice the discoloration around the seams?

[Tamara]

So don't assume this is normal stuff from Imbel.

I've seen a couple "Milspecs" and "Even Milspeccer Milspecs" that were a little rough in the hidden corners, but that one wins a booby prize of some kind.

The difference in fit and finish between the ones assembled in Geneseo and the ones finished in Itajuba is interesting.

[BLR]

I've seen a couple "Milspecs" and "Even Milspeccer Milspecs" that were a little rough in the hidden corners, but that one wins a booby prize of some kind.

The difference in fit and finish between the ones assembled in Geneseo and the ones finished in Itajuba is interesting.

That one trumps the worst of the "dark days" Colts I've seen.

[Blayglock]

Hope this is helpful:

2 of my 6 Kimber barrels were slightly rusted when bought new. Didn't notice it until field stripping at the house. Light polishing cleaned it up and I learned to keep the barrels well lubed.

I've gone all custom now so I do not have any of them anymore.

[Tamara]

That one trumps the worst of the "dark days" Colts I've seen.

Favorite Colt gaffe I've personally seen: A Colt Mustang owned by photographer Oleg Volk that had some reliability issues. As it turned out, the slide stop hole was too low in the frame and as a result, the locking lugs only had a couple thousandths of engagement, making the gun effectively a delayed-blowback .380. He was sentimentally attached to the piece, and wanted it fixed, but other than a new frame, what are you gonna do? We welded up & re-cut the lugs at a sympathy price, and explained to him that it would just wind up rounding those off, too, if he did much shooting with it.