Glock versus LEM trigger

[GJM]

Mid-March, disgusted with the accuracy problems I was experiencing with the M&P 9 pistols, I decided to exclusively shoot Glock pistols for an extended period, devoting myself to software instead of hardware. The Glock pistols have been accurate, reliable and serviceable even by me, which is ideal as we are in Alaska much of the year. It has taken me a while to shoot the Glock as well as the M&P, but I have made steady progress. My FASTest performance with the Glock has gotten to where it is consistently sub 5 on time, mostly 4.6 - 4.9 with a 50 - 75 % clean rate depending upon the day, but never better than 4.4

I have really applied myself to trying to shoot the Glock trigger well, and much of my shooting is two two inch dots, the one inch square on PF targets, plus eight inch steel at 40-60 yards. I have messed around with the minus, dot connectors and the Guardian trigger from Glocktriggers.com, but never found a combination of trigger components that I enjoyed shooting on low probability targets. I have generally suppressed negative thoughts about the Glock trigger, and persisted with trying to improve my skills.

Reading Todd's comments about some frustration he has experienced with his 1911 project, and his continued "man crush" (his words) on the P30, I have dry fired my P30 some in the last month, but as I was actively hunting a lot, and carrying my Glock 10mm, I didn't do much with the HK. Yesterday, I dragged the P30 out and did some refam shooting, which I justified as possibly helping my Glock shooting. My initial impressions were positive, but I wasn't using a timer.

Today, I decided to do a real range session with the P30, immediately followed by the G17 to compare times. My assumption was that the P30 would be great on slow, low prob shots, but on things like the FASTest, it wouldn't compare to the 17. I started drawing to the two inch dot at 7 yards from concealment with the P30 (Fricke Gideon OWB with cover vest) and was 2.2 on the first shot, and a few shots later did 5 in a row into the two inch dot at 1.8 with one at 1.6. Then I did six sets of two shots to the 3x5, and all were sub 2.0 and most 1.8. Then I ran a FASTest clean at 4.85 with the P30. Thinking I was just on today, I pulled the 17 out, and I was marginally slower but less accurate with the Glock. Shooting at 8 inch steel at 40-50 yards, the HK trigger was much better. I then did some support hand only, which was my old problem with the HK, and it was surprisingly good.

There are so many things I like about the HK, such as reliability, accuracy, build quality, a great cold weather trigger and the hammer for appendix carry, but I have assumed I was giving away overall performance with the P30 versus the Glock. Now I am in a real quandary, as I am in my "Glock shooting test," but the initial results with the P30, after not shooting it for 18 months are so good, along with everything I love about the HK, I am tempted to terminate the Glock program early. Will be at Todd's class in ABQ next weekend, which would be a great workout for either the Glock or HK.

[TCinVA]

Beware "new gun syndrome". Where you shoot one gun a lot and develop some sub-optimal habits with it (even subtle ones) and you pick up another and start shooting it better because you're paying more attention to what you're doing with it...perhaps even subconsciously.

Personally I tend to be just the opposite: I shoot the Glock marginally better after I've spent time with the P30 because the shorter trigger breaks before I can anticipate. Given enough time I default back to suck.

It may be that the P30 just works better with you...but it may just be new/different gun syndrome.

[FotoTomas]

TC's argument sounds like a winner. On the otherhand there is a point where superior skill is easily transferable to similar tools. I imagine that with the numbers you quoted you are "up there" in the skill department and could clean my clock with most anything you might pickup. Switching out similar pistols would not be a game changer but instead fall into a standard deviation of your skillset. Try another range visit with a S&W M&P and see where that shakes out. At that point pick your favorite and rock on.

At some point the law of diminishing returns kick in. You get so good that to get better requires much more effort and that enhanced skill set from the greater extra effort is much more perishable requireing far more of your time to maintain.

[GJM]

TC and Foto, good points.

TC, without totally derailing my Glock program, I am trying to assess whether the outing with the HK was new gun syndrome or real.

Foto, my skills are still building, and I have a long way to go before I am satisfied. Targets with a bunch of two inch circles and two one inch squares have been a game changer in terms of showing me what level of precision I need to be able to do at speed.

I see the hardware and software as separate. For building skills, you can do that on any decent platform, and you probably build skills faster, or at least can assess their development easier shooting one platform. However, hardware IS different. The HK has always been my first choice for its accuracy, quality and hammer, but I assumed I was giving too much away in shoot ability. If I determine I can shoot an HK as well as the Glock/M&P, I can pretty much live with the HK platform for a long time, as I value the hammer for carry, the trigger for using in the cold, and the accuracy for the longer range targets I enjoy shooting.

[Alaskapopo]

Mid-March, disgusted with the accuracy problems I was experiencing with the M&P 9 pistols, I decided to exclusively shoot Glock pistols for an extended period, devoting myself to software instead of hardware. The Glock pistols have been accurate, reliable and serviceable even by me, which is ideal as we are in Alaska much of the year. It has taken me a while to shoot the Glock as well as the M&P, but I have made steady progress. My FASTest performance with the Glock has gotten to where it is consistently sub 5 on time, mostly 4.6 - 4.9 with a 50 - 75 % clean rate depending upon the day, but never better than 4.4

I have really applied myself to trying to shoot the Glock trigger well, and much of my shooting is two two inch dots, the one inch square on PF targets, plus eight inch steel at 40-60 yards. I have messed around with the minus, dot connectors and the Guardian trigger from Glocktriggers.com, but never found a combination of trigger components that I enjoyed shooting on low probability targets. I have generally suppressed negative thoughts about the Glock trigger, and persisted with trying to improve my skills.

Reading Todd's comments about some frustration he has experienced with his 1911 project, and his continued "man crush" (his words) on the P30, I have dry fired my P30 some in the last month, but as I was actively hunting a lot, and carrying my Glock 10mm, I didn't do much with the HK. Yesterday, I dragged the P30 out and did some refam shooting, which I justified as possibly helping my Glock shooting. My initial impressions were positive, but I wasn't using a timer.

Today, I decided to do a real range session with the P30, immediately followed by the G17 to compare times. My assumption was that the P30 would be great on slow, low prob shots, but on things like the FASTest, it wouldn't compare to the 17. I started drawing to the two inch dot at 7 yards from concealment with the P30 (Fricke Gideon OWB with cover vest) and was 2.2 on the first shot, and a few shots later did 5 in a row into the two inch dot at 1.8 with one at 1.6. Then I did six sets of two shots to the 3x5, and all were sub 2.0 and most 1.8. Then I ran a FASTest clean at 4.85 with the P30. Thinking I was just on today, I pulled the 17 out, and I was marginally slower but less accurate with the Glock. Shooting at 8 inch steel at 40-50 yards, the HK trigger was much better. I then did some support hand only, which was my old problem with the HK, and it was surprisingly good.

There are so many things I like about the HK, such as reliability, accuracy, build quality, a great cold weather trigger and the hammer for appendix carry, but I have assumed I was giving away overall performance with the P30 versus the Glock. Now I am in a real quandary, as I am in my "Glock shooting test," but the initial results with the P30, after not shooting it for 18 months are so good, along with everything I love about the HK, I am tempted to terminate the Glock program early. Will be at Todd's class in ABQ next weekend, which would be a great workout for either the Glock or HK.

I hate the LEM trigger. I like triggers to be as short and light as possible for their given application. The LEM trigger while its not overly heavy is much longer than I prefer.
Pat

[GJM]

To show how preferences vary, my single favorite trigger for shooting steel at 50 yards at speed is a well broken in N frame Smith, shot double action.

[Alaskapopo]

To show how preferences vary, my single favorite trigger for shooting steel at 50 yards at speed is a well broken in N frame Smith, shot double action.

I think it depends on rather you grew up with revolvers or auto's. I like shooter revolvers as well in fact I like pretty much anything that fires with gun powder. But I prefer single action type triggers. To each his own. Love N Frames as well.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Revolvers/625.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Revolvers/Mountaingun.jpg

[Comedian]

I would love the LEM if the reset on it was much shorter. As it stands i prefer Glock.

[JodyH]

I've found that people who's trigger press technique is "press, reset" don't do as well with the LEM as they do with Glocks.
Approaching the LEM with a "smooth in, smooth out" trigger press technique improves things tremendously.
I have extensive trigger time on both platforms and remember when I too thought the LEM had too much takeup and the reset was too long compared to the Glock.
Now that I have concentrated on the LEM for a few years the Glock feels jerky, with abrupt starts and stops in the trigger press sequence.
Like the difference between driving a car with a CVT transmission and a old school standard.

[Nik the Greek]

It's a little off topic, but while I like the p30 trigger better than the glock, I find that I'm jerking the trigger a bit, causing my shots to go center low. At least, that's what I think I'm doing. Can anyone recommend a focused drill to correct that?

[joshs]

It's a little off topic, but while I like the p30 trigger better than the glock, I find that I'm jerking the trigger a bit, causing my shots to go center low. At least, that's what I think I'm doing. Can anyone recommend a focused drill to correct that?

Is this happening in slow-fire or just when shooting under time pressure? A common problem many people have when switching to the LEM is a mistimed "subconscious post-ignition push." The LEM trigger breaks farther to the rear than many other pistols, so it requires a conscious effort to retime your subconscious for finger position when the gun goes off.

[Nik the Greek]

Is this happening in slow-fire or just when shooting under time pressure? A common problem many people have when switching to the LEM is a mistimed "subconscious post-ignition push." The LEM trigger breaks farther to the rear than many other pistols, so it requires a conscious effort to retime your subconscious for finger position when the gun goes off.

It's happening during slow fire. I'm still very much a novice shooter so I'm trying to develop my fundamentals at the moment.

[YVK]

It's happening during slow fire. I'm still very much a novice shooter so I'm trying to develop my fundamentals at the moment.

What Josh said is what I experienced too, it is a variation of anticipation. Plus, a regular garden variety anticipation can happen too. Low center miss is my most common miss with Lem. Slow down your trigger pull through the point of highest resistance - don't stop it or stage it, keep building pressure at all times, but press through the break point very deliberately, and concentrate on watching your sight lift off the target. These two things helped me the most.

[TCinVA]

It's happening during slow fire. I'm still very much a novice shooter so I'm trying to develop my fundamentals at the moment.

To shoot the P30 with the LEM properly, a mental trick I've found that works well is to think of it like shooting a revolver.

On this forum we throw around terms like "rolling break" which can seem esoteric. The "rolling break" is how I shoot a revolver when I'm shooting for maximum accuracy. It means applying consistent pressure to the trigger from the time I start the trigger pull all the way through the shot. Think of how a machine would pull the trigger: It would have a consistent movement from start to finish, no pauses, no sudden increase in the speed of the pull towards the end.

Think of applying the gas in your car: What happens when you stomp the pedal to the floor? Assuming you're driving something with more oomph than a Prius, you get a sudden surge of power, the weight of the car shifts, and you can feel all this happen in the car as it's happening with some level of violence. (Depending on what sort of power plant you have under the hood.) Now think about how much different it is when you apply the throttle in a gradual, consistent manner: There is less dramatic weight transfer and the whole thing feels much smoother. You don't get thrown back into the seat and you don't lose grip in the front tires. This can be done quickly as well, but it doesn't induce the sorts of problems you get when you truly just floor it.

Think of the trigger pull in the same fashion. You want to pull that trigger with the same sort of gradual application of consistent pressure that you would use on the gas pedal to keep traction and steering control while accelerating. A sudden spike in torque applied to the trigger will have roughly the same results as a sudden spike of torque from the engine of the car: It causes the machine to shift around, making it difficult to control. A smooth application of ever-increasing torque, on the other hand, can be effectively controlled with minor corrections.

The great bonus with that approach is it's harder to pinpoint the exact moment of the shot when you're applying smooth consistent pressure. If the process of pulling the trigger is similar to stomping the gas in the car, your brain has a really good idea of when the gun is going to go because the whole process is leading to even a subconscious thought of "...aaaaannnnddddNOW!!!" This leads to full-on Atlanta Braves style tomahawk-chop anticipation.

[Comedian]

I assume the same even pressure would be used at the reset point as well with LEM?

[GJM]

My biggest issue with the P30 has related to the slide stop, inadvertently hitting the slide stop with my dominant thumb with an imperfect grip going fast, despite trying to always place my strong thumb over the large knuckle of my support hand. I have practiced with one cartridge in the pistol, do fine for many repetitions, and then out of nowhere, I will depress the slide stop unintentionally. Today I had my 1911 shop radically trim the slide stop in length, in width (taking one ridge off the width) plus bevel the rear of the slide stop. Hope that solves the problem.

[Alaskapopo]

It's a little off topic, but while I like the p30 trigger better than the glock, I find that I'm jerking the trigger a bit, causing my shots to go center low. At least, that's what I think I'm doing. Can anyone recommend a focused drill to correct that?

Slow down on the trigger and take it nice and easy until the flich goes away. Load some dummy rounds in your mag where you won't know when they will come up. If your muzzle dips you know your flinching.
Pat

[TCinVA]

I assume the same even pressure would be used at the reset point as well with LEM?

If by "at the reset point" you mean after you've reset the trigger and are pulling the trigger again to fire another shot, then yes. I don't even consider anything before that point to be the actual trigger pull on the LEM. As far as I'm concerned the movement of the trigger until the reset point is the takeup...and I dispense with that quickly and once I hit the point where I'm actually moving the internal parts I begin the consistent even pressure. A double-action revolver doesn't typically have any takeup.

If by "at the reset point" you mean the act of actually resetting the trigger, no...that bit is just something you do quickly to get to the next shot.

Trying to describe this stuff in text is often difficult. :D

[Nik the Greek]

That was tremendously helpful TC, thanks.

[rauchman]

If by "at the reset point" you mean after you've reset the trigger and are pulling the trigger again to fire another shot, then yes. I don't even consider anything before that point to be the actual trigger pull on the LEM. As far as I'm concerned the movement of the trigger until the reset point is the takeup...and I dispense with that quickly and once I hit the point where I'm actually moving the internal parts I begin the consistent even pressure. A double-action revolver doesn't typically have any takeup.

If by "at the reset point" you mean the act of actually resetting the trigger, no...that bit is just something you do quickly to get to the next shot.

Trying to describe this stuff in text is often difficult. :D

You do a great job!!! Excellent info...thanks!

[Comedian]

If by "at the reset point" you mean after you've reset the trigger and are pulling the trigger again to fire another shot, then yes. I don't even consider anything before that point to be the actual trigger pull on the LEM. As far as I'm concerned the movement of the trigger until the reset point is the takeup...and I dispense with that quickly and once I hit the point where I'm actually moving the internal parts I begin the consistent even pressure. A double-action revolver doesn't typically have any takeup.

If by "at the reset point" you mean the act of actually resetting the trigger, no...that bit is just something you do quickly to get to the next shot.

Trying to describe this stuff in text is often difficult. :D

Thanks for the detailed response TC.

[GJM]

I am just back from attending AFHS in Albuquerque this past weekend. Excellent class, and I highly recommend it for those with an opportunity to take it.

Despite shooting a Glock almost exclusively since March, and not having shot an HK more than a few rounds in 18 months, I made a command/decisive/ridiculous/impulsive (you can guess which words were my wife's) decision to run a P30 LEM at the course. My rationale was that while I would obviously shoot a lot better with the Glock given all my shooting with it over recent months, TLG is arguably the most knowledgeable P30 instructor out there, and shooting 1200-1400 rounds over two days in a challenging environment would accelerate my evaluation process with the P30. I got ready by shooting as much as I could with the P30 the few days before the course, but my reloads, body splits and overall mastery of the platform were way down where I would like to be.

I definitely improved some over the course, and while my best AFHS FASTest was just 5.65 clean, a lot slower than my recent performance with the Glock 17, I really started to see the potential of the LEM trigger. Funny thing, I noticed that it was hard to shoot the LEM tentatively, and best results for me seemed to flow from a press out and increasing pressure on the trigger continuously without consciously thinking about when the trigger would break. Near the end of the class, two drills represented a lightbulb moment for me. Todd was kind enough to run me on a FASTest (that didn't count) at the end of TD2, and letting it hang out, my time for the two hits to the 3x5 card was 1.77. I also did a 5.23 clean on Triple Nickel, and then a 4.7 with a few misses but a 1.09 draw and 1.60 reload.

Yesterday, I got home, and despite being tired ran a few FASTests, where I tried to shoot conservatively to make my hits. My times were slow and my accuracy was disappointing. That experience reinforced my belief that it is hard to shoot the LEM at 3/4 speed, and this morning I did some dry fire with a 1.5 par time set for the first 3x5 shot. I then shot 50 rounds of one to the 3x5 at 7 yards, with the 1.5 par, and had between a 80 and 90 per cent hit rate, within time. By comparison, my "conservative" first shot was 1.80 - 2.00, with poorer accuracy.

The net of all this for me is that the LEM trigger has great potential, but I have a LOT to learn about running it at a high level.

[LittleLebowski]

Two hits in 1.77? Damn.....nice shooting.

[LOKNLOD]

I really appreciate this thread -- I enjoy reading everyone's comments on the topic. I like so many things about the P30, especially the mag release, and hammer for AIWB carry, but also struggle to maintain the skill with it. It's not that I can't shoot it as good (or better even?), than the Glocks, but not having the ability to keep up the practice regimen that many on this board have (less than once a month, sometimes stretching 2+ months between trips) I do think it's easier to maintain a certain level with the Glock trigger with less practice than needed with the LEM. The Glock has a lot of merits too, and I have a 17, 19, 26, and 34 that all run pretty well.



There are so many things I like about the HK, such as reliability, accuracy, build quality, a great cold weather trigger and the hammer for appendix carry, but I have assumed I was giving away overall performance with the P30 versus the Glock. Now I am in a real quandary, as I am in my "Glock shooting test," but the initial results with the P30, after not shooting it for 18 months are so good, along with everything I love about the HK, I am tempted to terminate the Glock program early.

I did the opposite this spring, after shooting the P30 exclusively for 18 months or so I got a wild hair to try the Glock and immediately thought "oh wow, maybe this needs a second look". After a bit I just decided to stay with the P30, mostly driven by AIWB hammer/holstering issue. I also chalked a lot of it up to what TC describes here:


Beware "new gun syndrome". Where you shoot one gun a lot and develop some sub-optimal habits with it (even subtle ones) and you pick up another and start shooting it better because you're paying more attention to what you're doing with it...perhaps even subconsciously.

Personally I tend to be just the opposite: I shoot the Glock marginally better after I've spent time with the P30 because the shorter trigger breaks before I can anticipate. Given enough time I default back to suck.


And after shooting the Glock a bit I found an uptick in the P30 performance, which I attributed to switching things around forcing me to think about what I was really doing.


Two hits in 1.77? Damn.....nice shooting.

For the sake of context, how's that compare to your Glock times for the two shots?


To shoot the P30 with the LEM properly, a mental trick I've found that works well is to think of it like shooting a revolver.
/snip/
Think of applying the gas in your car:

I like the gas pedal analogy, because really I have no point of reference for shooting a revolver. Yes, I've shot one, but not in a long time, and when I was much younger, and only slowly in single action mode. There's a great case to be made for getting a revolver to help shoot the LEM better, but there's also a potential trap there if you've got to go out and find a revolver and spend time working with it in place of your "real" gun, when you have very limited time to work.



The net of all this for me is that the LEM trigger has great potential, but I have a LOT to learn about running it at a high level.

Staying with the car analogy theme, it's like a sports car that's not easy to drive, but once you learn to drive it well, it's very rewarding and capable of high performance.

[ToddG]

I really don't think it's fair to compare the LEM to a difficult-to-drive car. A better analogy would be paddle shifters. Plenty of people who drive manual transmission cars and automatics scoff at and/or have trouble using paddle shifters. But if you taught someone to use them from the start, they'd look at a stick shift and think that was the complicated one. And with a little dedicated effort, anyone can learn to run paddle shifters.

The LEM isn't more difficult. It's simply different. What I saw from GJM this weekend was a guy who clearly sat down and decided to shoot the LEM like its own unique system instead of trying to enforce old habits (Glock, 1911, whatever) on the mechanism. That can be a real challenge because good shooters tend to have a tough time giving up what they think is the right way to do things in favor of something new that might not work as easily at first.

[GJM]

I really appreciate this thread -- I enjoy reading everyone's comments on the topic. I like so many things about the P30, especially the mag release, and hammer for AIWB carry, but also struggle to maintain the skill with it. It's not that I can't shoot it as good (or better even?), than the Glocks, but not having the ability to keep up the practice regimen that many on this board have (less than once a month, sometimes stretching 2+ months between trips) I do think it's easier to maintain a certain level with the Glock trigger with less practice than needed with the LEM. The Glock has a lot of merits too, and I have a 17, 19, 26, and 34 that all run pretty well.
...............

For the sake of context, how's that compare to your Glock times for the two shots?


My average performance for most drills is better with the Glock. However, with the P30 at my level with it, I have big highs and lows in performance, with my lows a lot worse than the Glock, but my highs better than I have ever been able to do with the Glock. A few examples:

The body shots on the FASTest. A good Glock run is splits mid to high 20's for the 8 inch circle shots. With the HK, when I run it so it feels comfortable, my splits are .35-.40. However, when I push it, with the whole pistol flopping around, I see .20-.25 splits, with hits, but man it feels like being in a row boat in the ocean with 10 foot swells.

Transitions on steel are easily a win for the HK, as from the get go, I have done as well with the HK as when I am "on" with the Glock.

FASTest. Here is how I break it down, with the Glock, I plan on 2.0-2.2 for the two to the 3x5, 1.8-2.0 for the reload, .80 for the rest of the 8 inch circle shots, and depending upon the pieces 4.6-5.2 for the entire run. I don't honestly have enough date with the P30. All my P30 runs were 5.65 -- 5.9 at AFHS, but only my 5.65 was clean. Best FASTest I have run with the P30 in practice clean is 4.80 and 4.85 (twice), but I am still learning. Reloads with the P30 are 2.0 - 2.4 -- lots of work to be done here. I have done a number of 1.8 for the two 3x5 shots with the P30, but I am not consistent.

One hand shooting. This I used to SUCK at with the P30, and was the primary reason I quit shooting it 18 months ago. Right now, I feel I may shoot one hand better with the P30 because of the roll in the trigger.

Bottom line is I hope I can be a better shooter with the P30 but it may be a year off. After carrying the P30 appendix, anything without a hammer or Gadget feels barbaric. I shoot long range better with the P30, and the HK pistols just run. Contrast that with the conversation I had with a guy at the airport wanting a G19 for his wife, and asking what to buy. I spent ten minutes trying to explain Gen 4 issues, current Gen 3 issues, and finally said he probably ought to buy a used pre-2009 Gen 3. I have a pile of M&P 9's that don't shoot. At the end of the day, even if I give up a smidge of performance, and I hope I don't, the HK is so much better than the M&P and Glock, it is an easy choice.

[LOKNLOD]

I really don't think it's fair to compare the LEM to a difficult-to-drive car.

Fair enough, and I think your shifter analogy is good. (Although does "not easy to drive" automatically mean "difficult"? :p )


My average performance for most drills is better with the Glock. However, with the P30 at my level with it, I have big highs and lows in performance, with my lows a lot worse than the Glock, but my highs better than I have ever been able to do with the Glock. A few examples:


Thank GJM. As I said before, I appreciate the posts here because it's good to see well-thought-out observations on the topic.

[YVK]

My average performance for most drills is better with the Glock. However, with the P30 at my level with it, I have big highs and lows in performance, with my lows a lot worse than the Glock, but my highs better than I have ever been able to do with the Glock. .

Interestingly, I had the same experience when I started to shoot LEM. Working on consistency of performance has been the most challenging part of shooting P30.



I really don't think it's fair to compare the LEM to a difficult-to-drive car. A better analogy would be paddle shifters. Plenty of people who drive manual transmission cars and automatics scoff at and/or have trouble using paddle shifters. But if you taught someone to use them from the start, they'd look at a stick shift and think that was the complicated one. And with a little dedicated effort, anyone can learn to run paddle shifters.


My curiosity is through the roof - paddle shifters need special effort to learn? Any difference from something like Tiptronic/Steptronic?

[ToddG]

My curiosity is through the roof - paddle shifters need special effort to learn? Any difference from something like Tiptronic/Steptronic?

With apologies to GJM if this is getting too far afield...

For someone who's used to driving an automatic, human-controlled shifting of any kind certainly takes effort to learn.

I've met quite a few stick drivers who dislike the paddles for a variety of reasons, most of which can be boiled down to the same thing we're talking about with the Glock vs LEM triggers: they want to run the paddles exactly like the stick instead of learning to use them as something different that might need a slightly different approach.

[JHC]

However, when I push it, with the whole pistol flopping around, I see .20-.25 splits, with hits, but man it feels like being in a row boat in the ocean with 10 foot swells.

.

:D That is descriptive. That's about how .45 1911s feel to me nowadays too. I can't/won't deal with that anymore.

[joshs]

Josh, the four particular challenges that I've had hard times with LEM were/are re-timing of post-ignition push/anticipation, rolling through shot, higher arc of tracking and trigger release between shots. Based on my current performance and analysis, I've largely worked through the first two. The last two, either in combination or separately, seem to be a current limiting step. The DA/SA system gets rid of a latter problem for me.

I thought it would be more appropriate to respond to this here rather than continue the LEM discussion in the other thread.

I have two questions about the problems you are describing above.

First, by "arc of tracking" are you talking about how the sights track in recoil?

Second, by "trigger release" is the problem the reset distance or the trigger press from some point other than the rest position?

The sight tracking problem may be a grip issue, if you feel the P30 is more difficult to track than other 9mm pistols. The giant slide release levers cause some people to compromise their grip to guarantee slide lock. Or, the more vertical grip angle compared to Glock may be causing you to have insufficient wrist lock with your weak hand.

Do you think your "trigger release" problem could have something to do with trying to let the trigger out to a specific point and then bring it back to almost the break point in recoil before beginning your conscious trigger press for just the last bit of trigger movement? I initially did this with the LEM, but now I simply let the trigger out well past the reset and treat the pre-travel and sear engagement all as one conscious trigger press. This may be a terrible explanation of what I do, but if you watch the hammer movement in this video, you can see exactly what I'm doing with the trigger between shots. You'll probably have to switch to the 720p quality in order to see hammer movement.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw08YQqk-X4&list=UUaTSsfo6qHVP6fwPy94x0-A&index=8&feature=plcp

[YVK]

I thought it would be more appropriate to respond to this here rather than continue the LEM discussion in the other thread.

I have two questions about the problems you are describing above.

First, by "arc of tracking" are you talking about how the sights track in recoil?

Second, by "trigger release" is the problem the reset distance or the trigger press from some point other than the rest position?

The sight tracking problem may be a grip issue, if you feel the P30 is more difficult to track than other 9mm pistols. The giant slide release levers cause some people to compromise their grip to guarantee slide lock. Or, the more vertical grip angle compared to Glock may be causing you to have insufficient wrist lock with your weak hand.

Do you think your "trigger release" problem could have something to do with trying to let the trigger out to a specific point and then bring it back to almost the break point in recoil before beginning your conscious trigger press for just the last bit of trigger movement? I initially did this with the LEM, but now I simply let the trigger out well past the reset and treat the pre-travel and sear engagement all as one conscious trigger press. This may be a terrible explanation of what I do, but if you watch the hammer movement in this video, you can see exactly what I'm doing with the trigger between shots. You'll probably have to switch to the 720p quality in order to see hammer movement.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw08YQqk-X4&list=UUaTSsfo6qHVP6fwPy94x0-A&index=8&feature=plcp

Yep, this is best to address in this thread.

Higher arc, yes, I meant sight tracking. I don't think I am compromising my grip. I have same slide release interference problem even with Glocks. Best I can say is that I have to work harder, physically and eyes, to track P30 sight. In dedicated standalone drills like circle drill I can work my splits down to Glocks or MP, but in composite drills, especially run cold, I still find it harder. Which has been a good thing: it identified a potential deficiency, and I've been working on getting a stronger support grip and pectoral engagement in dry fire.
Regardless of my personal endeavors, I believe that P30 is just a bit harder to track and control, or maybe a margin for error is smaller.

The trigger release: nope, no predetermined point, I don't ride reset. My problem has been letting it out too far. Usually happens on moderately hard target shot at speed. My sight gives me a green light, but the trigger is out farther than it needs to. I end up working through it by shortening a release - still well beyond reset point - and that's where I generally catch up to Glocks, but I still can't do this all the time, every time. With SA or Glocks you can even lose the contact with trigger face ( not that I advocate it), and you still will not be penalized with renegotiating a long pull on follow up shots. With LEM, how long the follow up shot pull is going to be solely depends on you, the gun won't help you here. My and only my opinion, but I think this a unique aspect that needs to be recognized. Otherwise, I can't explain why I found it easier to for me to produce quick follow up shots with rental V3 vs own reduced reset LEM when I shot cold or after long layoff (admittedly, it's been some time when I rented v3, I may be better than that now).

[joshs]

Higher arc, yes, I meant sight tracking. I don't think I am compromising my grip. I have same slide release interference problem even with Glocks. Best I can say is that I have to work harder, physically and eyes, to track P30 sight. In dedicated standalone drills like circle drill I can work my splits down to Glocks or MP, but in composite drills, especially run cold, I still find it harder. Which has been a good thing: it identified a potential deficiency, and I've been working on getting a stronger support grip and pectoral engagement in dry fire.
Regardless of my personal endeavors, I believe that P30 is just a bit harder to track and control, or maybe a margin for error is smaller.

The trigger release: nope, no predetermined point, I don't ride reset. My problem has been letting it out too far. Usually happens on moderately hard target shot at speed. My sight gives me a green light, but the trigger is out farther than it needs to. I end up working through it by shortening a release - still well beyond reset point - and that's where I generally catch up to Glocks, but I still can't do this all the time, every time. With SA or Glocks you can even lose the contact with trigger face ( not that I advocate it), and you still will not be penalized with renegotiating a long pull on follow up shots. With LEM, how long the follow up shot pull is going to be solely depends on you, the gun won't help you here. My and only my opinion, but I think this a unique aspect that needs to be recognized. Otherwise, I can't explain why I found it easier to for me to produce quick follow up shots with rental V3 vs own reduced reset LEM when I shot cold or after long layoff (admittedly, it's been some time when I rented v3, I may be better than that now).

I try to begin the trigger press as I see the sight coming back down from recoil, but before the sights have given a "green light" to break the shot. This mitigates some of the additional trigger movement of the LEM. With the reduced reset package I wouldn't think that this would be a problem, but I haven't even dryfired a GrayGuns LEM, so I'm not really sure what I would do differently with the shorter reset. It sounds like you need to program the reduced distance into your subconscious so you can focus more on what your sights are telling you rather than worrying about all of the pretravel once you see what you need to see to make the shot. I generally use Matt Burkett's Timing Drills to get use to the physical characteristics of a given gun. This usually works to program in a shorter reset distance. I would shoot the Timing Drills focusing on letting the trigger out past the reset point, but not so much that you are dealing with a ton of pre-travel on the next shot.

I know that right now the idea that reset distance doesn't matter is very popular, but I still find short reset guns produce significantly faster splits for me. Your conclusion that this idea comes from people shooting short travel triggers seems correct to me. If you aren't dealing with more trigger movement, then how far you move your finger forward matters a lot less. For example, with the P30 my fastest splits are usually in the .18-.20 range, but I can pick up an SRT Sig and shoot .15-.17 splits after just a few Timing Drills.

[ToddG]

I think it's got less to do with whether the gun is capable of faster splits and more to do with the human limitation. If you're not actually breaking faster shots under realistic circumstances, the benefit during a split-heavy range drill is questionable.

[YVK]

It sounds like you need to program the reduced distance into your subconscious so you can focus more on what your sights are telling you rather than worrying about all of the pretravel once you see what you need to see to make the shot.

Yep, I agree, this is just another piece I need to work.


I think it's got less to do with whether the gun is capable of faster splits and more to do with the human limitation.

Not sure about this, Todd. I just ran the Test as a part of DOTW. Took 5 tries to clean it with P30 at 96, both runs with M&P - clean, and the one I scored was 99. Same shooter, the drill precludes blind splits, trigger pulls within .25 lbs of each other, and length of reset is the same. The only variables I can see being different are muzzle/sight flip and trigger release distance.

[ToddG]

The M&P and LEM are much, much different triggers in more than reset length. I also never found the P30 less controllable than the M&9 FS. There are just far too many variables to blame a couple of internet-wisdom myths.
You've already said you're probably not resetting the LEM optimally, true? Then comparing reset seems misplaced. FWIW, I measured the reset on my 1911 last night, it's 0.095" compared to 0.15" for a Glock and 0.25" for a P30. That's a huge difference... one certainly not reflected in my shooting the three guns.

But if you can't make the LEM work to your satisfaction, you've got two choices:

1. Drop the LEM in favor of something you shoot better.
2. Stop trying to approach the gun the same way you do others and stop going back and forth with "comparisons." If you're dedicated to the LEM, learn it and shoot it.

What makes you want the LEM? Are those things worth the effort (or perceived loss of ability) you suffer compared to guns you shoot better?

[YVK]

.. stop going back and forth with "comparisons."

Meh, hardly a concern, with YTD of about 10K through LEM, plus dry fire, and 500 through M&P mostly for purposes of reliability assessment and sighting. It so happened I wanted to have trigger pull on M&P measured on a day I was shooting DOTW.




What makes you want the LEM? Are those things worth the effort (or perceived loss of ability) you suffer compared to guns you shoot better?

Development of a personal opinion on a basis of a fair effort vs one demo session, enjoyment of a challenge - being a process-oriented just as much as goal-oriented, perception that working through the LEM challenges will make my overall skill set more complete, fact that Glock is not AIWB-ready for me without Gadget, and M&P is not carry-ready at all without Apex bbl, fact that LEM/HK has other advantages over striker/G-MP, all of the above.

I am not bitching about my difficulties with LEM, nor do I really know if it at this point it disadvantages me comparing to other guns - simply because I don't run those guns now and don't do any serious comparisons, outside of random opportunistic things like I reported above - although even these random things could be thought-provoking. I haven't even mentioned the things I do better with this gun comparing with my past guns. I am simply stating that, in context of the original topic started by a new shooter asking for HK variant advice, that P30/LEM has presented me with more than one challenge to work through.

[ToddG]

Fair enough!

So some other things to consider in terms of maximizing the P30:


I know you've already improved your sights. Consider whether more improvement there would offer benefits.
Evaluate which grips you've got on the gun. Lots of people opt for thin instead of the ones that provide the best actual fit in terms of filling the palm to provide more friction against recoil.
Spend some time playing with the trigger absent thoughts of a "proper" trigger press. The number one problem I see with 1911/Glock guys trying to learn the LEM is that despite what they say (and think) they're not pressing the trigger ideally. The best explanation I can offer is that you don't drive straight through the resistance at break point, you roll through it. It's closer to the traditional bullseye surprise break than most people actually use.
Along similar lines, put some more time into SHO & WHO marksmanship work. That will definitely help you understand the trigger better.

[EVP]

GJM found this thread doing some searches

It seems you have been shooting your Glocks more frequently just wondering if you have anything to add.

I have been playing with the LEM again. For a defensive carry trigger, I am really liking it.





On a side note I was re reading this thread, and it was bittersweet reading Todds posts. Rest in peace Todd! Wishing the best to all your loved ones!

[GJM]

GJM found this thread doing some searches

It seems you have been shooting your Glocks more frequently just wondering if you have anything to add.

I have been playing with the LEM again. For a defensive carry trigger, I am really liking it.





On a side note I was re reading this thread, and it was bittersweet reading Todds posts. Rest in peace Todd! Wishing the best to all your loved ones!

I will need to read this thread later or tonight to see what I though then -- definitely looking forward to reading Todd's posts!

Here is what I think now, which may or may not be the same as then. By chance, I was just out shooting a USP 40 and Glock 17, so I have some minutes old impressions.

My joking response is smart people shoot a Glock in 9 and an HK in 40/45. Crazy people shoot a Glock in 40/45 and an HK in 9. For defense, I don't think it matters at all, and arguably the LEM offers non shooting benefits that, for some, outweigh the greater shootability of the Glock. I do know, that for a given amount of shooting talent, it is easier to shoot the Glock. While some Glock models may be nearly as reliable as an HK, overall the HK is more reliable across many models and calibers.

Look forward to reading the original thread tonight.

[Mjolnir]

I just jumped back into LEM - P2000 and reading this thread was enlightening and makes me miss Todd a helluva lot; maybe it made me appreciate how gosh darn intellectual and analytical he was.

At any rate, my first shots with it were spot on. But... I tend to push thru the take up and then pause (essentially staging the trigger). When I push straight thru I'll hit low on my first shot on 3 of 10 attempts when coming out of the holster.

So I'm also working with what I consider a "superior" concept (AIWB Carry).

At speed I shoot it as well or damned near as my VP9 or Glock or 1911 (split-wise). It's the first shot trepidation that I've got to get over.

If I imagine that the target is something that will severely injure me and it HAS to be shot it's no problem. Shooting 1911s and striker-fired pistols don't require that level of focus for me. But I'm improving quickly with it; I find my biggest issue is MENTAL not the trigger.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[breakingtime91]

Yup, u really need to focus on that press. I have began to just think about it as a DA roll through. Replaced dot torture with the da/sa dot torture.