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will_1400
03-24-2011, 10:27 PM
Alright, I know that SIG has fallen far from where they once were. However, I've been shooting a friends pre-Cohen P229R 9mm for a while and I shoot it better than other platforms I've tried, namely the Glock 19 and 1911 .45.

My question is that if I can get ahold of a P239 that was made before Cohen took over, would it be an acceptable choice for CCW. My reason for asking about the 239 is because I'm currently living in CA and I don't want to carry a neutered double-stack pistol if I can avoid it.

WDW
03-24-2011, 11:12 PM
What makes you think Sig has "fallen" since Cohen? They are as good as ever. Not all of their stuff is made in Germany anymore and the 250 series was a dud, but the original P series guns are as robust as ever. The 239 is great for CC. I only carry full-size guns, may prefernce being a 226 E2, love that SRT, but if you want a single stack and are proficient on the DA/SA system, the 239 is good choice.

will_1400
03-24-2011, 11:29 PM
What makes you think Sig has "fallen" since Cohen? They are as good as ever. Not all of their stuff is made in Germany anymore and the 250 series was a dud, but the original P series guns are as robust as ever. The 239 is great for CC. I only carry full-size guns, may prefernce being a 226 E2, love that SRT, but if you want a single stack and are proficient on the DA/SA system, the 239 is good choice.

Well, it's my undestanding from what I've read in my research that SIG was considered one of the gold standards for quality, but now they've come out with products like the P250, 556 series rifles, etc, and that they've been cutting a lot of corners on QC while charging HK level prices or higher for said products since Cohen took over at SIG-USA.

While I take most reports on the 'net with a ton of salt, when I hear the same thing from a fairly large group of people who know what they're talking about, I'm more likely to believe them.

Odin Bravo One
03-25-2011, 12:34 AM
I have put a few rounds down range with Sig's over the past couple of weeks, and have not known much of a problem with quality control or quality problems in terms of performance.

I would certainly choose a full sized 226 over the 239, but your argument for a streamlined single stack certainly has merit. I defected a few years back, but can certainly sympathize with the unfortunate circumstances of not being able to make it out of the occupied territory.

With the proper grips, and some practice, the 239 is a viable defensive pistol. It has some quirks, and needs some minor changes in your technique to run it effeciently and effectively but it can be done. If a single stack 9mm made sense for my personal situation/needs, I would probably look very hard at the 239 as the gap filler.

will_1400
03-25-2011, 12:44 AM
I guess I could have worded my OP a bit better RE Sig and QC issues. It's just I keep hearing horror stories about them of late so I might have read too far into it. I did shoot a range rental P229 that kept having malfunctions, but that was fixed by a bit of oil since the gun was completely dry.

Thanks for the comments, by the way. They're much appreciated.

jnc36rcpd
03-25-2011, 12:53 AM
My agency issues SigSauer Classic pistols in .40 226 and 239. Back in the day, SigSauer branding meant almost absolute quality. Today, it means you evaluate the gun like you would from any other gun manufacturer.

While you might get a lemon, odds are that you will get a quality firearm. If a single stack pistol is what you want (and you're willing to pay a few extra bucks), the 239 might be a good choice.

VolGrad
03-25-2011, 06:50 AM
A few years back I carried a P239 for almost a year as my primary CCW. It was quite a nice specimen. Mine was a Two-Tone DA/SA in 9mm, had NS, and SIG logo'd Crimson Trace grips. It was utterly reliable, very accurate, and quite comfortable to shoot & carry. I think the grip is large enough for most to get a good purchase and the capacity is adequate (nearly as good as your going to get anyway in Cali, right?).

Damn, thanks. Now I want it back .... and I am NO LONGER a fan of DA/SA at all.

TCinVA
03-25-2011, 07:19 AM
My question is that if I can get ahold of a P239 that was made before Cohen took over, would it be an acceptable choice for CCW. My reason for asking about the 239 is because I'm currently living in CA and I don't want to carry a neutered double-stack pistol if I can avoid it.

The P239 is rather bulky for a single-stack 9mm pistol (it's slightly larger than a G19, for instance) but if it works better for you then it's not a bad option for concealed carry.

As for Sig's quality, yes...Sig QC is not what it once was. While they never had a perfect record, they are more hit or miss these days than ever. That doesn't mean you can't buy a Sig that works, however. If you really want a P239 buy one and then run it to ensure it functions as you expect before relying on it.

VolGrad
03-25-2011, 08:39 AM
.... buy one and then run it to ensure it functions as you expect before relying on it.
And I think we can all agree this is good advice with ANY weapon you plan to trust your life to anyway.

TheNewbie
03-25-2011, 08:51 AM
I shot a P239 in 9mm and loved it. I just don't like how big it is for the amount of rounds it carries.

Now most of my reading about Sig QC has been on the net, so it may have little importance, but the P239 is one I read about the least in terms of problems.

NickA
03-25-2011, 08:54 AM
I think it's an internet rule that when someone asks about the 239 someone else has to bring up the S&w 3913, so here goes ;) I certainly wouldn't say it's a BETTER gun, but should be less expensive and has a sterling reputation for accuracy and reliability. Cons are that it's no longer made, holster selection is limited, and the safety/decocker is kind of funky. I bought one just because I've always wanted it; in my Concealco holster it carries like a dream, but its mostly a range toy for me. I've also shot a friends 239 and it is a very sweet gun. Just something to think about.

TheNewbie
03-25-2011, 09:06 AM
I think it's an internet rule that when someone asks about the 239 someone else has to bring up the S&w 3913, so here goes ;) I certainly wouldn't say it's a BETTER gun, but should be less expensive and has a sterling reputation for accuracy and reliability. Cons are that it's no longer made, holster selection is limited, and the safety/decocker is kind of funky. I bought one just because I've always wanted it; in my Concealco holster it carries like a dream, but its mostly a range toy for me. I've also shot a friends 239 and it is a very sweet gun. Just something to think about.

They also make a DAO version right, or a version with just a decocker?

Occam's Razor
03-25-2011, 09:08 AM
I have a 239 SAS Gen 2 in .40. Very nice shooter. I use it mostly now as a demo gun for the DA/SA. The frontstrap is very flat which doesn't give as good grip for me without skateboard tape but it is certainly concealable. It was my shorts and T-shirt gun before the G19.

NickA
03-25-2011, 09:28 AM
Yes, I THINK the DAO is a 3953 but you may want to check; not sure about the decocker only. I've also read that some 3913's can be converted to DAO or decocker only. I've been meaning to verify that and maybe have mine done.

They also make a DAO version right, or a version with just a decocker?

TCinVA
03-25-2011, 09:51 AM
Having owned, used, and carried both, I definitely prefer the 3913 to the P239. The P239 is more widely supported in the aftermarket, however.

Jason
03-25-2011, 10:08 AM
I carried a Sig 239 for about two years, it was an older model (this is back in 1998 or so). I found a glock carried easier and held more rounds and required that I adapt my grip and shooting style less than the Sig. As indicated above, the 239 will likely require you adapt your shooting grip to some extent, most likey due to the placement of the slide release in the "I want to put my thumb there" location. I'll ask you this question, are you prepared to master the double action pull of the sig and then learn to transition to a single action then remember to decock as you come off target into your ready position each and every time? If the answer is yes, it may be a good fit, but if I were you, I would look for a 228 that has the potential to carry more rounds (10 is better than 8 and kosher even behind enemy lines) and is more reliable than the 239.

will_1400
03-25-2011, 06:29 PM
Actually, I don't really have to worry about my thumb holding down the slide release since I'm a southpaw. Most of my trigger time is on a P229R 9mm that a friend of mine is more than kind enough to let me shoot when we go to the range, so I'm getting a decent feel for the DA/SA transition and decocking when going off target. Still got a ways to go before I consider myself proficient, though.

Regarding the capacity of going to the 228/229, I've thought about that, but decided that I'll take the two round hit against capacity to get a slightly easier to conceal weapon. Just my preference, given my options.

Chipster
03-25-2011, 11:08 PM
Try the new E2 series in SIG. They feel SWEEEET! Seriously, the only SIG I have ever had a problem with was a P220 ST Ernest Langdon edition that had a feed ramp that looked like someone gouged it (bought NIB from a dealer). Other than that everyone I have ever fired has been accurate and reliable.

DocGKR
03-26-2011, 05:09 PM
"What makes you think Sig has "fallen" since Cohen? They are as good as ever. Not all of their stuff is made in Germany anymore and the 250 series was a dud, but the original P series guns are as robust as ever. "

Uh...No.

I have recently been at three different LE agencies that were all long time, happy users of very durable and reliable West German manufactured 9 mm Sig P226's. These agencies had each purchased new Sig P series pistols to replace their worn out 20+ year old P226's. In each case, their new Sigs turned out to be unreliable, poorly fabricated POS that broke numerous parts in less than 1000 rounds. One of the certified gunsmiths working to repair these pistols pulled equivalent parts from new and old pistols--the parts from the new pistols had measured Rockwell hardness less than half that of the same parts pulled from their old reliable P226's. So much for quality of manufacture...

The good news is that there are rumors that Sig's new owner is NOT happy with the situation and has recently directed Sig USA to fix the issues or start looking for new jobs...

jslaker
03-26-2011, 06:10 PM
The good news is that there are rumors that Sig's new owner is NOT happy with the situation and has recently directed Sig USA to fix the issues or start looking for new jobs...

Id actually missed word of this: anybody have some info about Sig having changed hands? Feels like a durr moment on my part.

will_1400
03-26-2011, 06:53 PM
Thanks again, everyone, for taking the time to weigh in. Next time I hit the range I'll see about renting a 239 and a 3913 and compare the two. I'm guessing I'll shoot the SIG better since it's a familiar platform, but who knows?

At the risk of de-railing this thread, would a Smith 908 be considered servicable? I only ask because I like the SIG platform and I shoot it reasonably well for a noob, but I also want to figure out what works best for me and I've seen more 908s in gun stores than I have 39xx's.

DocGKR
03-26-2011, 07:07 PM
Michael Lüke--the investor who most recently acquired the parent company.

jslaker
03-26-2011, 07:09 PM
Michael Lüke--the investor who most recently acquired the parent company.

Thanks, Doc. I'll look into it.

DocGKR
03-26-2011, 07:12 PM
The 3913 is a nice pistol: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/14820722563?r=70320032563#70320032563, however, it is no longer made and hard to service.

I understand and agree with your issues regarding the 10 rd magazine limit. Have you considered the Glock 26 or a Glock 19 cut down to accept the G26 10 rd mags? This is a great way to go in California.

Other alternatives to consider are an M&P40c, M&P45 midsize or compact, or HK45c.

will_1400
03-26-2011, 07:26 PM
The 3913 is a nice pistol: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/14820722563?r=70320032563#70320032563, however, it is no longer made and hard to service.

I understand and agree with your issues regarding the 10 rd magazine limit. Have you considered the Glock 26 or a Glock 19 cut down to accept the G26 10 rd mags? This is a great way to go in California.

Other alternatives to consider are an M&P40c, M&P45 midsize or compact, or HK45c.

Haven't really given the G26 a thought. Honestly, if we were allowed standard capacity mags, I'd likely pick up a Gen 3 G19, a decent holster, sights, ammo, sign up for a couple classes, and go from there.

I haven't shot the M&Ps or H&K yet, but I'll see if I can get some trigger time on them before I make any decisions. Right now I'm mostly researching and weighing the options.

DocGKR
03-26-2011, 09:53 PM
Well, the standard G26 magazine is 10 rounds and they work perfectly. You can either run them in a G26 or cut down a G19 grip to accept the G26 mags--thus getting a perfectly functional, reliable, durable, easily serviced, lightweight 9mm Glock with native 10 round capacity that is perfect for use under California's illogical and asinine bureaucratic regulations...

JodyH
03-26-2011, 10:29 PM
The 3rd gen S&W's like the 3913 are overly complicated.
I've seen too many go tits-up from small parts breakage.
If it's available in California the Kahr K9 is a great platform.

ToddG
03-26-2011, 11:58 PM
Michael Luke has been the principle owner for almost a decade.

DocGKR
03-27-2011, 01:24 AM
Yup, that is the guy who lead the investment group in the most recent change of ownership at Sig around 2000 or so. While he is also the guy that allowed Cohen to be hired, I suppose it is finally dawning on Herr Lüke how far Sig's reputation has sunk as a result of poor QC...

ToddG
03-27-2011, 02:03 AM
Very interesting. While I was there, almost 100% of the owners' interests were in hunting rifles. The pistol side of SIG's business was often little more than an afterthought or a commercial vehicle to help keep Blazer alive.

It would certainly be a welcome development if the company re-invests in its former reputation for unshakeable quality.