New 2011 red dot division

[GJM]

Lately, there has been a lot of chatter about USPSA having a new or provisional division for 2011 pistols with a red dot.

I am assuming no comp and a slide mounted optic but no idea whether just minor, 140mm, mag wells?

[Clusterfrack]

Lately, there has been a lot of chatter about USPSA having a new or provisional division for 2011 pistols with a red dot.

I am assuming no comp and a slide mounted optic but no idea whether just minor, 140mm, mag wells?

If that meant CO would go to 15+1 rounds, I could get behind* that.

*but not interested in shooting it

[CCT125US]

If that meant CO would go to 15+1 rounds, I could get behind* that.

*but not interested in shooting it

Isn't CO limited to mag length, not cap?

[Clusterfrack]

Isn't CO limited to mag length, not cap?

Yes, currently it allows 140mm mags. You can't be competitive without mags that hold 23+1, and which are not super reliable without fiddling.

How a 140mm mag fits into "Carry" optics, I have no idea..

[CCT125US]

Clusterfrack ah, read that wrong. I'm thinking about delving into the world of USPSA CO and it's disconcerting to hear that one needs 23+1 to be competitive.

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack ah, read that wrong. I'm thinking about delving into the world of USPSA CO and it's disconcerting to hear that one needs 23+1 to be competitive.

Depends on how "competitive" you want to be... Plenty of people shoot CO with smaller mags. But when a stage is 24 rounds and the top shooters are all doing it without a reload, there really is no choice if you want to be in it for the win.

[rdtompki]

I don't claim to understand USPSA division/division requirements logic but I sure wish they would abandon the notion that Steel Challenge has to track USPSA division-wise WRT centerfire handguns. I know I won't live long enough to see single action allowed in CO for example.

[GJM]

Depends on how "competitive" you want to be... Plenty of people shoot CO with smaller mags. But when a stage is 24 rounds and the top shooters are all doing it without a reload, there really is no choice if you want to be in it for the win.

There sure are examples of that, like a stage at the Limited/CO nationals a few years back, that was a close range 24 round speed shoot. Interestingly, with more challenging targets, I would almost always reload rather than shoot to slide lock, because the care I invest in not needing a make up shot usually negates the time advantage of skipping a reload.

[JCN]

I don't claim to understand USPSA division/division requirements logic but I sure wish they would abandon the notion that Steel Challenge has to track USPSA division-wise WRT centerfire handguns. I know I won't live long enough to see single action allowed in CO for example.

Hey, steel challenge has optic revolvers with comps… wish those were allowed in USPSA revolver!

I bought a pair of Prodigies and ordered some 29 round mags hoping that the new division allows 170mm… I mean if Springfield has factory 26 rounders…

I would love to have an excuse to go back to 1911s…

[Clusterfrack]

I would love to have an excuse to go back to 1911s…

Same here except exactly the opposite :D

[JCS]

CO dominates the sport by a wide margin in terms of % of shooters.
I’d love to see a limited optics type division with sa allowed and magwells and slide ride dots and minor only. .40 is obsolete outside of competition so it gives the 2011 people a place to shoot still.

Production is dead. The future of the sport is optics. I think a production 15 with ipsc style rules and limited optics would take some from CO and limited and give everyone a division to play in.

[bofe954]

CO dominates the sport by a wide margin in terms of % of shooters.
I’d love to see a limited optics type division with sa allowed and magwells and slide ride dots and minor only. .40 is obsolete outside of competition so it gives the 2011 people a place to shoot still.

Production is dead. The future of the sport is optics. I think a production 15 with ipsc style rules and limited optics would take some from CO and limited and give everyone a division to play in.

I think if the primer famine continues 9mm minor divisions are all that will really be viable.

[BWT]

I need to shoot a match, but I feel like throw 2011’s in CO if they fit the criteria as far as magazine size, etc.

I don’t think fragmenting or adding another division is necessary.

Let’s be honest - the CZ Shadow 2 is a heavy gun, with lots of rail, nice trigger, etc. but I’d largely built for performance, right?

That’s allowed. Add a Weapon light (which some use purely as a muzzle weight and hey I might join them) is now legal?

Magazines and holsters can now go anywhere on the carrier. We can shoot from AIWB.

Let’s 2011’s in - who cares we might grow the sport?

I think honestly production and revolver classes will naturally ebb, but not entirely go away. I figure grow the sport and I don’t see a down side to single stack, revolver, or production divisions.

The reality is you showed up to a competition - if you get smashed because of your equipment you have the decision then to either try to get better with what you have or chase the latest and greatest. I figure the 2A has more coming at it than ever and if cheap 2011’s grow the sport then great.

Or we can get continually be marginalized. IDPA allows 2011’s.

[YVK]

If this was going to happen and it didn't affect neighboring divisions, I don't care. I might even get one. I am not sure how it can be done that way except simply making it "2011 minor pf slide mounted optic division". If they merged it with the CO, it would OK SAO in that division and that may have various downstream effects. If they allowed major pf, it would affect both limited and open divisions.

Beyond that, the rumors are that this is being pushed by lobbying from 2011 makers. I don't think that decisions should be influenced by what industry wants to sell.

[jh9]

I think 2011s in CO was inevitable. I've compiled this helpful timeline to illustrate:

2014: Carry Optics introduced as a provisional division; immediately derided as Welfare Open

2015: Glock introduces the MOS slides, Leopold introduces the Deltapoint Pro; This begins a new age of broken screws and optics.

2016: HK teases a similar setup for the VP9. Soon (tm).

2017: USPSA BOD decides Welfare Open sounds pretty good, removes 10 round limit; The Poors zerg rush CO division en masse with iron sighted Glocks and 15 round magazines. The BOD responds by requiring slide mounted optics, credit checks.

2018: Two years later, HK is still pondering how to drill a hole in the VP9 slide. Soon (tm).

2019: Leupold introduces the SRO, shooters at large discover rocksett; CO guns begin a new age of (mostly) remaining attached to slides and functional

2020: HK releases its modular optics system; using its famed German Engineering they decided to use larger screws. The entire industry looks on, stunned. HK becomes the champion of mounting systems that doesn't break screws under recoil, a fact that goes unnoticed by most shooters since nobody has been shooting a 20oz gun in CO for a few years now.

2022: In yet another skirmish between The Poors of Welfare Open and CZ Shadow 2 shooters, the BOD considers allowing Open Minor 2011s to shoot in CO (with an 800+ credit score)

2023: PCC is allowed in CO.

[JCN]

In a “oh duh” moment, I realize I have TSOs and Czechmate mags…

I’d imagine any 2011 optics classes would also allow TSOs.

[bofe954]

If this was going to happen and it didn't affect neighboring divisions, I don't care. I might even get one. I am not sure how it can be done that way except simply making it "2011 minor pf slide mounted optic division". If they merged it with the CO, it would OK SAO in that division and that may have various downstream effects. If they allowed major pf, it would affect both limited and open divisions.

Beyond that, the rumors are that this is being pushed by lobbying from 2011 makers. I don't think that decisions should be influenced by what industry wants to sell.

I think it's been like that for awhile. I also think that when manufacturers push a platform and a lot of people buy it, USPSA wants to make a place for people to shoot it.

[JCN]

Beyond that, the rumors are that this is being pushed by lobbying from 2011 makers. I don't think that decisions should be influenced by what industry wants to sell.

Disagree. Sponsors subsidizing the sport should get a voice in the direction of the sport.

And people who want to shoot in stagnant divisions always have Revo and Single Stack to hang out in.

Popular divisions will always have social media, popular opinion and “cool factor” draw.

You can’t separate that out from the sport.

The Infinity makers might just find themselves in a quandary if the most popular guns in the new division are Shadow 2 SAO or Shadows running cocked and locked, not to mention Springfield and CZ TSOs.

I’m more and more convinced that they’ll have to do a “Super CO” division between Open and CO and that’s likely where I’ll end up.

Time to dust off the TSOs…

I just hope they allow 170mm mags…

[YVK]

I also think that when manufacturers push a platform and a lot of people buy it, USPSA wants to make a place for people to shoot it.

I don't think that there are large numbers of dedicated 9 mm 2011 owners outside USPSA who are saying "if only USPSA allowed our guns, we would start participating". I actually don't think that there are large numbers of 9 mm 2011 owners in general. My impression is that there are about 7k active participants in the organization and this is largely a zero-sum market. That's one reason why I said upthread that I don't see how this could be done without impacting existing divisions. In theory it may impact the interests of other gun makers but the price difference will likely play a role here.


Sponsors subsidizing the sport should get a voice in the direction of the sport


Question is to what extent.

To the point of sponsors having a voice, I wonder what SIG and Glock will think of SAO guns being allowed in the same divisions with strikers.

[foxj66]

Disagree. Sponsors subsidizing the sport should get a voice in the direction of the sport.

And people who want to shoot in stagnant divisions always have Revo and Single Stack to hang out in.

Popular divisions will always have social media, popular opinion and “cool factor” draw.

You can’t separate that out from the sport.

The Infinity makers might just find themselves in a quandary if the most popular guns in the new division are Shadow 2 SAO or Shadows running cocked and locked, not to mention Springfield and CZ TSOs.

I’m more and more convinced that they’ll have to do a “Super CO” division between Open and CO and that’s likely where I’ll end up.

Time to dust off the TSOs…

I just hope they allow 170mm mags…

As the person at the manufacture coordinating USPSA sponsorship, I disagree the manufacture should not have a voice in how the sport changes. We all have the opportunity to build guns for the divisions as they are. I personally think that if you add SA to CO you are going to take people from open and limited with little to no additional shooters to the sport. If you make it a new division you will take people from CO, Open and Limited watering down those divisions. I think making large changes to the most popular division is a bad idea in general, it didnt work out well for production.

[Bergeron]

I think that CO dominates because it combines ease of entry with ease of performance. I don't shoot that division, and I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious.

I understand how a shooter with a dotted-nine would become interested in 2011 platforms. The 2011 potentially represents the easiest-shooting dotted and noncomped 9mm out there. If there's a "problem", I think it's from the shooters who started with more modern dotted 9mms, and who have now become 2011 enthusiasts. Their "old" gun was CO-competitive, but now they still want to compete, and with their new gun, that doesn't fit into any divisions, but appears closest to CO.

I like L10 and Open Minor.... so I'm already a weirdo, but I do think that there could be something like Production, Production Optics, Modified, and Open. Production and Production Optics could be pretty well what they sound like, with greater size and weight restrictions, 10 or 15 round capacity, no magwells, etc. Open being open, and a newly-reintroduced Modified could have some set of features like slide-ride optics, 140mm magazines, and a more generous size/weight budget than Production/Production-Optics. I'd even be interested in seeing what would happen if shooters could declare Major with .40/10mm.

[GJM]

. I don't think that decisions should be influenced by what industry wants to sell.

Where is the emoji for shocked face.

[bofe954]

I don't think that there are large numbers of dedicated 9 mm 2011 owners outside USPSA who are saying "if only USPSA allowed our guns, we would start participating". I actually don't think that there are large numbers of 9 mm 2011 owners in general. My impression is that there are about 7k active participants in the organization and this is largely a zero-sum market. That's one reason why I said upthread that I don't see how this could be done without impacting existing divisions. In theory it may impact the interests of other gun makers but the price difference will likely play a role here.

[FONT=Verdana]

Question is to what extent.

To the point of sponsors having a voice, I wonder what SIG and Glock will think of SAO guns being allowed in the same divisions with strikers.




All I know is that Springfield Armory and Staccato (STI), who have had long (maybe the longest?) relationships with USPSA are both making 9mm optic ready double stacks. Staccato makes nothing else, no .40 option, and Springfield's double stack is only available in 9mm. Wilson has a 9mm exclusive double stack (although not competition oriented, yet).

The zero sum game may be true, but if a bunch CO shooters switch to SA's and Staccato's then maybe that's worth sponsoring some matches and buying some Front Site ads so USPSA creates the division. Guys own more than one gun and shoot more than one division.

The tactical guys/training crowd seem like they are embracing the platform. I have been looking at buying another limited gun for awhile and have not been able to figure out why everyone is making 9mm optic ready guns, but they are. My guess is they are being made because they are selling.

[Clusterfrack]

...the rumors are that this is being pushed by lobbying from 2011 makers. I don't think that decisions should be influenced by what industry wants to sell.


Disagree. Sponsors subsidizing the sport should get a voice in the direction of the sport.


I'll be honest. I haven't seen any benefits of sponsors' "subsidy". USPSA Nationals has declined in quality over the last 10 years. 2021 Lowcap Nationals was a boring match, held at a facility that was inappropriate for the size of the event. A "banquet" with not enough food or seating was the cherry on top.

What do sponsors contribute to make USPSA better as a sport? I'm not seeing it.

[BWT]

As the person at the manufacture coordinating USPSA sponsorship, I disagree the manufacture should not have a voice in how the sport changes. We all have the opportunity to build guns for the divisions as they are. I personally think that if you add SA to CO you are going to take people from open and limited with little to no additional shooters to the sport. If you make it a new division you will take people from CO, Open and Limited watering down those. I think making large changes to the most popular division is a bad idea in general, it didnt work out well for production.

Suggestion is don’t add these 2011’s anywhere? It seems like the conclusion of adding them to CO damages other divisions. Creating a new division drains old divisions. Then that leaves no options? Or force them to go to Open and add comps and compete against frame mounted?

[JCN]

BWT

You could make an argument that there is such a thing as CO getting too popular.

If CO becomes 80% of all matches then it’ll hit critical mass and the other divisions will also implode and wither.

It’s heading that way and will likely hit that within a couple years if no changes to divisions.

So there might be a real thing where instead of 70% CO and 30% split amongst different divisions, long term health might look like 40% CO, 40% Super CO and 20% the rest of stuff.

JMO.

[foxj66]

Suggestion is don’t add these 2011’s anywhere? It seems like the conclusion of adding them to CO damages other divisions. Creating a new division drains old divisions. Then that leaves no options? Or force them to go to Open and add comps and compete against frame mounted?

Yes they are currently legal for open or Limited with the optic removed. I dont see what adding them to their own division or changing CO adds to the sport, we dont need a division for every gun made and have too many divisions now. Also how many divisions do you need that you can use your 2011 in?

[foxj66]

I'll be honest. I haven't seen any benefits of sponsors' "subsidy". USPSA Nationals has declined in quality over the last 10 years. 2021 Lowcap Nationals was a boring match, held at a facility that was inappropriate for the size of the event. A "banquet" with not enough food or seating was the cherry on top.

What do sponsors contribute to make USPSA better as a sport? I'm not seeing it.

Deleted read your message wrong.

[BWT]

BWT

You could make an argument that there is such a thing as CO getting too popular.

If CO becomes 80% of all matches then it’ll hit critical mass and the other divisions will also implode and wither.

It’s heading that way and will likely hit that within a couple years if no changes to divisions.

So there might be a real thing where instead of 70% CO and 30% split amongst different divisions, long term health might look like 40% CO, 40% Super CO and 20% the rest of stuff.

JMO.

Fair enough.

[JCS]

BWT

You could make an argument that there is such a thing as CO getting too popular.

If CO becomes 80% of all matches then it’ll hit critical mass and the other divisions will also implode and wither.

It’s heading that way and will likely hit that within a couple years if no changes to divisions.

So there might be a real thing where instead of 70% CO and 30% split amongst different divisions, long term health might look like 40% CO, 40% Super CO and 20% the rest of stuff.

JMO.

94315

One could argue that it’s already there. I think most people agree limited numbers are inflated by people shooting locals with their minor guns loaded to full capacity. If they made the new division and no one left open, limited, or production and CO split 50/50 it would still be more popular than open, PCC and production.

[YVK]

Honestly I would've been a lot more excited about optic division for G19/p365XL sized and weighted guns with 5 lbs min trigger pull and 15 rounds in the mag than adding another I-can-split-faaast out of a horse dick sized mags option.

[45dotACP]

Dude they just need to let 2011s into CO.

The guys who win will still win.

Remember that time where all three of the top shooters in limited division nationals were running a Glock, a Sig and a fucking Canik?

Pepperidge farm remembers.

For those who think a 1911 or 2011 will increase their performance...let them eat cake. For those who just want to play in carry optics with their 2011...fuck yeah sounds awesome!



Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

Deleted read your message wrong.

I would be glad to hear your take on all this. I'm sorry if I came across as unappreciative of industry partners and sponsors. It's great when companies care about USPSA enough to field teams and sponsor events. Hopefully this generates enough sales to make it worthwhile financially. I've certainly spent a lot on CZ and CGW parts...

I am less excited about industry having a say in how the sport is played, officiated, or administrated. As well, the USPSA BoD exists to serve the sport and membership, and should be free from obligations to industry.

As the model of USPSA has shifted from a sport to a business, I've seen the quality of major matches (especially Nationals) decline steadily, and a disturbing pattern of rushed rule changes, including poorly thought out division definitions. I would like to see this change for the better, in the form of rules stability so competitors' equipment doesn't need to change often or at all. USPSA should be about practical shooting competition, not the latest equipment. If industry partners can help make this happen, that would be awesome. But, industry partners are in the business of selling guns and equipment and I absolutely do not want that tail wagging the dog.

[jellydonut]

Honestly I would've been a lot more excited about optic division for G19/p365XL sized and weighted guns with 5 lbs min trigger pull and 15 rounds in the mag than adding another I-can-split-faaast out of a horse dick sized mags option.

Sounds like the thinking behind "Production Optics Light" in IPSC.

The thinking, mind you, given that it has obviously already been gamed and people minmax to metal pistols in that division *as well* now..

[Erick Gelhaus]

Not that I'd shoot in it, but this seems to be covered by existing divisions.

[JCN]

Honestly I would've been a lot more excited about optic division for G19/p365XL sized and weighted guns with 5 lbs min trigger pull and 15 rounds in the mag than adding another I-can-split-faaast out of a horse dick sized mags option.

I’ve heard IDPA BUG division is very popular with more participants than CO.














Said nobody ever.

[YVK]

I’ve heard IDPA BUG division is very popular with more participants than CO.


Said nobody ever.

Nobody has won popularity or participation by artificially limiting guns capacity, especially to six rounds. Is IPSC optics light less popular than optics heavy?

[JCN]

Nobody has won popularity or participation by artificially limiting guns capacity, especially to six rounds. Is IPSC optics light less popular than optics heavy?

You know that joke about a drunk is someone who drinks more than you and a teetotaler is one that drinks less?

6 round capacity on a 15 round IDPA COF is as unpalatable as a 10 round on a 28 round USPSA COF.

Many modern handguns come with more than 15 rounds standard.

Even a stock G19x or P365 Macro come with more than that.

When people want to race guns, they want racing guns.

There have been attempts at making stock shitbox autocross classes and you know what? It always dies.

People like the fantasy of cool stuff that makes them better than they are.

[YVK]

People like the fantasy of cool stuff that makes them better than they are.

Yep, USPSA has certainly cracked that code. I myself wouldn't mind racing my Audi, in the snow and on the hills, but I guess there is no venue and speed traps are all over.

IDPA is probably the same but I am going to check them out this off-season. You all lemme know if I can run my Shadows C&L in CO when I come back.

[JCN]

Yep, USPSA has certainly cracked that code. I myself wouldn't mind racing my Audi, in the snow and on the hills, but I guess there is no venue and speed traps are all over.

You’re making my case.

The Glocks and P365s you’re wanting to run are like Camrys and Accords.

An Audi is more like a Shadow 2 and a Porsche might be an Infinity.

94343

94342


https://youtu.be/Ka3o0nfRvOk

[Yankee]

USPSA needs a Limited Minor division way more than this idea. These days everyone just wants to shoot 9mm, and Production is dying because no one likes the 10rd mags.

I wouldn't care if they allow 2011s in CO, but they don't need a separate division for it. Would be too similar to CO.

[jellydonut]

Nobody has won popularity or participation by artificially limiting guns capacity, especially to six rounds. Is IPSC optics light less popular than optics heavy?

Yes, it is viewed by most people as "plastic pistol cope", and is almost always a smaller division than PO.

Personally I shoot in PO instead of POL despite being a Glock shooter simply because it is uninteresting to be one out of 1-3 people on the results list.

[GJM]

In terms of pure performance, I am not sure a 2011 without a comp, big magwell, 155/170 mags, and frame mounted optic will do better than the current CO pistols.

[Jim Watson]

Think sales performance, more business for your advertisers and sponsors, more shooters joining up just sure that they are all set.

[JCN]

In terms of pure performance, I am not sure a 2011 without a comp, big magwell, 155/170 mags, and frame mounted optic will do better than the current CO pistols.

I would absolutely shoot one of my TSOs in CO over my Shadow 2.

The frame mag opening on it is similar to a 2011 and it’s easier to hit on a reload than the slimmer 75B opening.

Everything that’s good about a Shadow 2 is good with the TSO.

Plus a crisper, shorter 1.5# SA trigger with very defined reset over a little sloppy and vague SA of a DASA.

Unless someone hates manual safeties, why wouldn’t it do better?

It’s not going to make someone 10% better, but it IS better.

And again, why wouldn’t it be?

[Bergeron]

You could make an argument that there is such a thing as CO getting too popular.



This is on my mind. Ultimately, I don't even compete in CO, so I don't realllly care, but it's a fun topic to weigh in on.

Unless someone is really devoted to the other guns, why *wouldn't* a new shooter pick CO? Between Minor-only scoring and the weight allowance, there's only very minimal recoil, the dot makes the aiming and shooting part far more transparent, there's no need to load specialty stuff like .40 Major Long or 9mm Major- factory ball gets the job done, and the 140mm mag rule means everybody's stepping to the shooting box with over 20 rounds in the gun. Pretty much any modern double stack 9 with a dot and a light is going to be as competitive as anything else.

While I prefer the idea of CO having a pretty limited size & weight envelope to operate inside of, USPSA has spoken, and anything like a re-though Modified division or changes to CO would just piss people off, and I'd rather not see that happen.

While we certainly have examples of skilled people winning with other platforms, the tendency in USPSA and a lot of the other sports is for the 2011 to dominate the divisions that it is eligible to compete. It dominates Limited, Limited-10, and I could pretty easily see it as dominant if it were introduced into CO.

I shoot PCC because it's fun to blaze at close range with a 9mm carbine, I shoot L-10 because I have a handful of pistols that'll always be in my life that fit that division, and I shoot Open because that's where my everyday, living with them, carrying them, have them by the bedside guns are at. If I were to start fresh, it probably would just be in CO.

[Clusterfrack]

Modifying CO to include 2011s and starting cocked and locked might be the tipping point for me to go back to Production even if I'm the only one shooting it.




USPSA needs a Limited Minor division way more than this idea. These days everyone just wants to shoot 9mm, and Production is dying because no one likes the 10rd mags.

I wouldn't care if they allow 2011s in CO, but they don't need a separate division for it. Would be too similar to CO.


In terms of pure performance, I am not sure a 2011 without a comp, big magwell, 155/170 mags, and frame mounted optic will do better than the current CO pistols.


I would absolutely shoot one of my TSOs in CO over my Shadow 2.

The frame mag opening on it is similar to a 2011 and it’s easier to hit on a reload than the slimmer 75B opening.

Everything that’s good about a Shadow 2 is good with the TSO.

Plus a crisper, shorter 1.5# SA trigger with very defined reset over a little sloppy and vague SA of a DASA.

Unless someone hates manual safeties, why wouldn’t it do better?

It’s not going to make someone 10% better, but it IS better.

And again, why wouldn’t it be?

[GJM]

Modifying CO to include 2011s and starting cocked and locked might be the tipping point for me to go back to Production even if I'm the only one shooting it.

Nils just won CO nats with a $600 Canik and, as I recall, came within one percentage of the Limited Nats winner shooting the Canik with 9 minor.

I continue to be underwhelmed with my (in)ability to shoot a Staccato better than a Glock.

Everyone loves equipment, but I am not sure how important it would be in CO. Flashlights, and weighted flashlights seemed like a if real until most realized they didn't mean much.

[Clusterfrack]

Nils just won CO nats with a $600 Canik and, as I recall, came within one percentage of the Limited Nats winner shooting the Canik with 9 minor.

I continue to be underwhelmed with my (in)ability to shoot a Staccato better than a Glock.

Everyone loves equipment, but I am not sure how important it would be in CO. Flashlights, and weighted flashlights seemed like a if real until most realized they didn't mean much.

I would be annoyed about losing to someone shooting a super heavy $5000 2011 with a 1.5# trigger, and I would be annoyed winning because someone’s 2011 race gun malfunctioned.

On the other hand, at least I could start hammer down on the decock notch, which we should already be able to do…

I don’t see even the current USPSA BoD being stupid enough to change the CO rules though Production 15, Staccato Division, sure.

[jh9]

USPSA needs a Limited Minor division way more than this idea.

In REV division there is a capacity and power factor disconnect. i.e. the lower capacity six gun can be shot w/ major pf scoring, the higher capacity 8-shot revolvers can only be scored minor. Similar to SSTK with 10-minor and 8-major.

I wonder what Limited would look like with minor PF allowing 170mm mags or somesuch. It gives what might be a competitive spot to the 9mm 2011s without completely destroying the current Limited options (such as they are). Maybe one less reload per stage. Not quite as huge an advantage as in REV/SSTK but it's something. edit: maybe one port comps since comp'd minor isn't such a huge deal; that could be a bridge too far but major PF is a big deal. Could smooth out the difference.

[YVK]

In terms of pure performance, I am not sure a 2011 without a comp, big magwell, 155/170 mags, and frame mounted optic will do better than the current CO pistols.

We're obviously speculating but I don't expect them to restrict those guns much. Meaning I expect everything but frame mounted optics and comps. Magwells, barrel mounted weights known as sight block etc.


Nils just won CO nats with a $600 Canik and, as I recall, came within one percentage of the Limited Nats winner shooting the Canik with 9 minor.

Nils is in a different universe. Out of 60+ GMs at the Nats three shot a GM percentage of his score. Everyone below his level, I fully expect equipment race. I spec'd out Atlas Artemis yesterday, only $6400..

[JCN]

Nils is in a different universe. Out of 60+ GMs at the Nats three shot a GM percentage of his score. Everyone below his level, I fully expect equipment race. I spec'd out Atlas Artemis yesterday, only $6400..

Agree. To use Nils as “data” of why a Canik is as good as anything else is extremely flawed.

It doesn’t prove that he wouldn’t have crushed people by more had he been a sponsored CZ or Sig shooter.

Remember those “made for TV” golf specials where Tiger would beat scratch golfers with only a putter and a 7 iron?

Doesn’t mean that most people wouldn’t benefit from a driver and a wedge.

[JCN]

I just ordered a threaded 9mm TSO barrel… just in case…

I have “sight tracker” fronts available on my Czechmates.

Kind of getting excited no matter the outcome.

I get bored with the same old thing.

[GJM]

I spec'd out Atlas Artemis yesterday, only $6400..

Don't worry. Because of the scourge of managed care, I heard they are having a doctor special, offering 5 percent off and a free cleaning kit, for all orders placed before the next USPSA BOD meeting.

[YVK]

Don't worry. Because of the scourge of managed care, I heard they are having a doctor special, offering 5 percent off and a free cleaning kit, for all orders placed before the next USPSA BOD meeting.

Since you have experience with these in your open gun: how do you protect your $200 mags from loss? I lost $40 Uplula during state match, I was nearly heartbroken. The distraction cost me at least 10 seconds. I can't imagine losing $200 mag. Even excessive wear is tough to take.

[GJM]

Since you have experience with these in your open gun: how do you protect your $200 mags from loss? I lost $40 Uplula during state match, I was nearly heartbroken. The distraction cost me at least 10 seconds. I can't imagine losing $20 mag. Even excessive wear is tough to take.

I am told to properly campaign a 2011 in current and future divisions, and be in the hunt for a trophy or two, you need to budget maintenance costs like for a trophy wife.

[Clusterfrack]

Since you have experience with these in your open gun: how do you protect your $200 mags from loss? I lost $40 Uplula during state match, I was nearly heartbroken. The distraction cost me at least 10 seconds. I can't imagine losing $200 mag. Even excessive wear is tough to take.

If you are asking the question, you can't afford it.

[Clusterfrack]

I am told to properly campaign a 2011 in current and future divisions, and be in the hunt for a trophy or two, you need to budget maintenance costs like for a trophy wife.

My trophy wife is currently in Italy, so I can't afford to play in the John Wick division.

[YVK]

I am told to properly campaign a 2011 in current and future divisions, and be in the hunt for a trophy or two, you need to budget maintenance costs like for a trophy wife.

In this household I am a trophy wife.

[jh9]

Honestly Limited and Open are the only divisions left where optionally shooting minor doesn't get you some sort of meaningful concession. It's all downside., The capacity difference between a 140mm .40 mag and a 140mm 9mm mag isn't nearly as big a deal as the difference between e.g. Single Stack's 8-major and 10-minor. The former basically changes nothing, the later shakes up your stage planning altogether.

I think the collective understanding of terminal ballistics may be slightly more nuanced than it was in the 1960s. The concept of major/minor then was basically to penalize 9mm because the people who wrote the rules really, really liked their 1911 .45s. I think it's an interesting game mechanic and we should keep it because it lets you test skills differently. Recoil control is important and shooting major *should* get you more points. But shooting minor in Limited or Open is almost all downside. That shouldn't be the case. That's not true for e.g. Single Stack where the small capacity difference makes a huge impact.

Limited and Open both could be modified to make minor at least somewhat competitive like it is in SSTK. That would solve the 9mm 2011s in CO problem and also address the elephant in the room that is a lot of casual shooters showing up and faced with the option of either shooting their iron sighted Glock/M&P/320 with only 10 rounds (lolno) or loading up and essentially having the whole division tiled entirely in favor of .40 2011s. I think the .40 2011 crowd will be fine and still plenty competitive if the Limited minor guys got to use 170mm mags. Or something that levels the playing field. Because minor shouldn't be 100% downside. It should be a slightly different test of skill that necessitates a different strategy. Because it's 2022 and 9mm isn't some popgun and the .45 acp isn't the Sword of Damocles. Scoring should reflect that.

[Caballoflaco]

Since you have experience with these in your open gun: how do you protect your $200 mags from loss? I lost $40 Uplula during state match, I was nearly heartbroken. The distraction cost me at least 10 seconds. I can't imagine losing $200 mag. Even excessive wear is tough to take.

The secret I hear, is to own and carry around so many that you don’t notice it when one or two go missing. Plus you always have back up mags for when they hit the ground and you can’t clean them or if they just stop working and your mag tuner dude doesn’t have a tent set up at the shoot.

[Jim Watson]

Because it's 2022 and 9mm isn't some popgun and the .45 acp isn't the Sword of Damocles.

Just allow 9mm P Major in all Divisions.
If I overload my 9mm Open gun, why shouldn't you overload your Limited, CO, or Production gun?

[jh9]

Just allow 9mm P Major in all Divisions.
If I overload my 9mm Open gun, why shouldn't you overload your Limited, CO, or Production gun?

That could be interesting...

I mean, I'm fine with 9mm = minor in Limited or even elsewhere. The big problem I see with Limited today is that those weighted down, big honkin heavy .40s basically get all the benefits of major scoring with all the benefits we used to associate with minor such as high capacity and lighter recoil. They get to have their cake and eat it too.

Choosing major or minor should come with both pros and cons, not be a winner-take-all affair. There should be a strategic element to picking one or the other.

[JCN]

That could be interesting...

I mean, I'm fine with 9mm = minor in Limited or even elsewhere. The big problem I see with Limited today is that those weighted down, big honkin heavy .40s basically get all the benefits of major scoring with all the benefits we used to associate with minor such as high capacity and lighter recoil. They get to have their cake and eat it too.

Choosing major or minor should come with both pros and cons, not be a winner-take-all affair. There should be a strategic element to picking one or the other.

Some interesting facts:

40SW 205gr Syntech is rated at 400 ft lbs.

Exactly the same as 9mm HST+P.


Syntech 150 in 9mm basically makes energy like 380 ACP.

[JCS]

Maybe people are misreading the boards comments about working with manufacturers on division. Maybe it’s not gun but ammo manufacturers. Current 9mm major ammo exceeds SAMI specs and that’s why big companies don’t make it. Lower major pf to something more like 9mm +p would get ammo manufacturers in the game. Uspsa shooters spend much more on ammo than guns.

[YVK]

I doubt it. Ammo makers sell everything they produce and hardcore USPSA crowd mostly reloads their ammo.
Frankly, I am not sure who in industry would want it badly enough to lobby. Has to be 9 mm 2011 makers because if they allowed major, milling services for existing Limited slides or just new slides is all that they'll be selling. Staccato makes 15K guns a year, I wonder how much of them they are selling and how saturated that niche is. Obviously SA has big production capacity and relatively small presence in USPSA, maybe they are pushing for this newly released Pro-partskit.

[JCN]

I doubt it. Ammo makers sell everything they produce and hardcore USPSA crowd mostly reloads their ammo.
Frankly, I am not sure who in industry would want it badly enough to lobby. Has to be 9 mm 2011 makers because if they allowed major, milling services for existing Limited slides or just new slides is all that they'll be selling. Staccato makes 15K guns a year, I wonder how much of them they are selling and how saturated that niche is. Obviously SA has big production capacity and relatively small presence in USPSA, maybe they are pushing for this newly released Pro-partskit.

The Prodigy mags almost exactly meet 170 and 140mm specs. With Rob Leatham consulting that wasn’t a coincidence….

[Hambo]

Plus you always have back up mags for when they hit the ground and you can’t clean them or if they just stop working and your mag tuner dude doesn’t have a tent set up at the shoot.

The real answer is to bend enough feed lips that you can become your own mag tuner dude. The learning curve can be costly, but it's better than sending someone else's kids to college.

[Gio]

I think they should just blow up the divisions and start from scratch at this point instead of trying to band-aid fix and accommodate new guns:

Optics Major - Basically Open as it is, 170mm mags
Optics Minor - Basically CO as it is but also allow SAO limited style guns, 140mm mags
Irons Major - Basically limited as it is now, 140mm mags
Irons Minor - Limited Minor, 140mm mags
Low Cap - 10 round minor/8 round major, any gun currently allowed in limited goes - This is basically combining production, L10, and single stack

PCC
Rev

[bofe954]

I think they should just blow up the divisions and start from scratch at this point instead of trying to band-aid fix and accommodate new guns:

Optics Major - Basically Open as it is, 170mm mags
Optics Minor - Basically CO as it is but also allow SAO limited style guns, 140mm mags
Irons Major - Basically limited as it is now, 140mm mags
Irons Minor - Limited Minor, 140mm mags
Low Cap - 10 round minor/8 round major, any gun currently allowed in limited goes - This is basically combining production, L10, and single stack

PCC
Rev

I could live with that. My only question would be whether a 10 round minor gun could compete with an 8 round major gun, or whether SS major would end up wrecking any hope of shooting a 9mm production type gun. I guess maybe those guns would really just end up in Irons Minor with big mags?

[JCS]

I think they should just blow up the divisions and start from scratch at this point instead of trying to band-aid fix and accommodate new guns:

Optics Major - Basically Open as it is, 170mm mags
Optics Minor - Basically CO as it is but also allow SAO limited style guns, 140mm mags
Irons Major - Basically limited as it is now, 140mm mags
Irons Minor - Limited Minor, 140mm mags
Low Cap - 10 round minor/8 round major, any gun currently allowed in limited goes - This is basically combining production, L10, and single stack

PCC
Rev

I can get behind that.

[Jim Watson]

140mm magazines in Optic Major, too.
And PCC.

[jellydonut]

I think they should just blow up the divisions and start from scratch at this point instead of trying to band-aid fix and accommodate new guns:

Optics Major - Basically Open as it is, 170mm mags
Optics Minor - Basically CO as it is but also allow SAO limited style guns, 140mm mags
Irons Major - Basically limited as it is now, 140mm mags
Irons Minor - Limited Minor, 140mm mags
Low Cap - 10 round minor/8 round major, any gun currently allowed in limited goes - This is basically combining production, L10, and single stack

PCC
Rev

Sooo 2011, 2011, 2011, 2011, 1911?

[bofe954]

Sooo 2011, 2011, 2011, 2011, 1911?

Unless you believe the narrative that the 1911/2011 is unreliable and no one shoots it any better than anything else...

[Clusterfrack]

Sooo 2011, 2011, 2011, 2011, 1911?

That would diminish my interest in USPSA for sure.

[Gio]

Sooo 2011, 2011, 2011, 2011, 1911?

I don't think it would work like that. As pointed out earlier in this thread, there was a limited nationals recently where the 3 of the top 4 finishers were using Canik, Sig, and Glock. My personal experience is the gun really doesn't matter within reason if it's reliable and accurate.

https://practiscore.com/results/new/121099?q_division=1

1. Sig
2. 2011
3. Glock
4. Canik (shooting minor)

[Gio]

I could live with that. My only question would be whether a 10 round minor gun could compete with an 8 round major gun, or whether SS major would end up wrecking any hope of shooting a 9mm production type gun. I guess maybe those guns would really just end up in Irons Minor with big mags?

If you look at locap nationals results from last year, there wasn't much difference in Single Stack Major and Production Minor in the overall scores. I think the differences are more match dependent depending on how the stages are setup than a hard and fast rule that 8 round major beats 10 round minor.

https://practiscore.com/results/new/134571

[JCN]

YVK

170mm Shadow 2 mag.

94764

For when they tell me I can join Super CO and run it cocked and locked from a race holster.

[YVK]

I've short legs so I'll probably be tripping over these mags when shooting from low ports.