Pocket Handgun: Small 9mm Auto or 642 Airweight?

[SwampDweller]

I carry a mid or full size pistol every day IWB. However, sometimes when taking the dog out at night I wish I had something I could just throw in a pocket holster in my stretchy shorts (no belt) and head out, or take out the trash, get mail, etc...
While my next purchase will be primarily for that purpose, I'd also like for it to double as a BUG to my primary. I used to carry a G26 in the pocket, but the weight of it loaded is more of an issue than the size (though granted, it is chunky).

I always had a S&W 642 Airweight fingered as what I'd go with, primarily going off of DocGKR 's BUG article, but this isn't just a BUG. It will also be primary for short periods in the scenarios listed above, and perhaps NPEs. I know this is the Semi-Auto forum, but being as it's this or a revolver, for my intended purpose, I figured it'd be okay.

Seems like most these days gravitate toward pistols like the P365, Hellcat, G43, and other so-called micro-9's with higher capacities than seen in previous years. After getting burned by Sig pistols several times over a period of 12 years, I'm hesitant to trust a P365. Also have been less than impressed with HS Produkt pistols, although the Hellcat does shoot very well.

Are we in an era of micro 9s where it makes more sense to go with one of those for pocket carry instead of the old standby: the J frame .38? Previously tiny pistols have had a reputation for spotty reliability, or anemic power. Now we have an array of quite capable 10+ round micro 9mm's in a size unimaginable just a decade ago. Just looking to get thoughts and how many of you have tackled this niche of a pocket pistol that needs to be light enough for no-belt pocket carry.

[Duelist]

We have 2 G42s, and 3 jframes: a 642 is the one that has the most miles on it, a 442 is the current gun with the old 642 as the backup/spare/air travel gun, and the 60-9 is the steel gun I shoot most of the three.

I mostly carry a jframe. SWMBO mostly carries a G42. I use the G42 in a smart carry as a gym gun, but have used it as a pocket gun as well.

I use a G26 as a belt gun.

For what you are wanting to do with it as a pocket gun, I think a single stack micro 9 or .380 could do, but I’m partial to the .38 for the task, most of the time. They are less likely to get messed up and not work when you need them to, and work in entangled situations really well.

[HeavyDuty]

I tend to use a G42 as my pocket gun, but now that I’m in the land of cargo shorts I’m going to try and upgun to a G26 or P365.

[john c]

What is your threat profile when walking your dog or in NPEs? Is 5 rounds “enough”?

If so, the j frame offers a lot; primarily better pocket carry characteristics and a rounded shape.

If not, then get a hellcat/p365/G43X/etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SwampDweller]

What is your threat profile when walking your dog or in NPEs? Is 5 rounds “enough”?

If so, the j frame offers a lot; primarily better pocket carry characteristics and a rounded shape.

If not, then get a hellcat/p365/G43X/etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mostly coyotes (strangely the ones here aren't shy and run right past me and my dog, one stopped and growled the other night) and drunken tourists, but every once in a while you have a tourist that just decides to go clock someone random on the street. I'm not in a big city per se, think of like a resort. There are break-ins and the occasional murder.

I like the idea of being less likely to mess up the J Frame, although I guess I could theoretically short stroke the trigger. G43X would be nice but I think the grip is a bit long for pocket carry. I also would imagine the smaller autos are more sensitive to grip.

[Joe in PNG]

I went from a bobbed Mod 36 to a Shield 1.0 a few years back, due to the problem of finding wadcutters for a snub 38.

It's still my 'hike the neighborhood nature trail' pistol when I'm back in the US.

[psalms144.1]

I'm currently in a similar position, largely due to a number of stacking medical conditions that make belt carry (IWB, AIWB, or OWB) painful to the point of being basically un-doable. I'm NOT a fan of pocket carry, but I'm down to that as the lesser evil to going unarmed altogether.

I had been pocket carrying my Shield Plus, but I found the weight with a loaded spare magazine was such that I've still got to crank my belt tight enough to be as uncomfortable as OWB carry. So, the only other option I currently own is the LCR, which, loaded with two loaded speed loaders, weighs what the Plus weighs empty.

The issue for me is, I don't feel comfortable with "5 for sure" - and would like a little more shootability and capacity. I've owned the G42 and G43, couldn't shoot either of them worth a darn (though better than the LCR at speed). I've owned the LCP and LCP Max - neither of which works for me for a variety of reasons. Which is pushing me back towards the P365, which is smaller enough than the Plus to be easier to pocket, a couple of ounces lighter, and offers the same 10+1 capacity that is sort of my "soft limit." If the 365-380 had the same reliability track record as the 9mm, it would be the obvious choice - about 4 ounces lighter with the same decent sights and trigger.

What I need is a P365X with the old optics mounting plate, and a curved trigger (I really dislike the X/XL straight trigger). Then I'd buy a standard $35 365 grip module for pocket carry and be perfectly happy... For a day or two.

[Dov]

An Airweight J frame is lot less hassle to pocket carry.

A G26 is a *lot* easier to make hits with at speed, and has twice the capacity with the flush 10 round mag. Not to mention is about as easy/fast to reload as a G19.

If you add a 12 round mag to G26 you basically have a G19 grip, at least for my hands.

A G26 loaded with 10 round mag is ~27 oz IIRC, which is about same weight as an unloaded Lightweight Commander.

I've carried both more than a little.

Now I normally pocket carry pair of G26's, usually with the 12 round mag, drop down to the 10 round mag for certain pants. Handful of times a year for various reasons I only carry the J frame.

The Crimson Trace grip on J frame makes up for the short sight radius, but even so I could shoot G26 better with the 10 round mag even when I first got it than I could the J frame when I was shooting 500-800 rounds a year from the J frame, not a lot for a pistol but a lot IMHO from j frame, plus 2-3 times a week dryfire with the J frame.

The G26 is also a lot easier on the hands, which at this point in my life is a real issue unfortunately.

[SwampDweller]

An Airweight J frame is lot less hassle to pocket carry.

A G26 is a *lot* easier to make hits with at speed, and has twice the capacity with the flush 10 round mag. Not to mention is about as easy/fast to reload as a G19.

If you add a 12 round mag to G26 you basically have a G19 grip, at least for my hands.

A G26 loaded with 10 round mag is ~27 oz IIRC, which is about same weight as an unloaded Lightweight Commander.

I've carried both more than a little.

Now I normally pocket carry pair of G26's, usually with the 12 round mag, drop down to the 10 round mag for certain pants. Handful of times a year for various reasons I only carry the J frame.

The Crimson Trace grip on J frame makes up for the short sight radius, but even so I could shoot G26 better with the 10 round mag even when I first got it than I could the J frame when I was shooting 500-800 rounds a year from the J frame, not a lot for a pistol but a lot IMHO from j frame, plus 2-3 times a week dryfire with the J frame.

The G26 is also a lot easier on the hands, which at this point in my life is a real issue unfortunately.

I used to carry a G26 a lot, including in a pocket holster. While it was on the absolute large end of what I could carry, it was doable in pants with a belt. My issue is that I have doubts it would be doable in shorts without a belt. It's just got the stretchy waistband. I agree about the G26 being way more shootable than a J Frame or smaller 9mm's. I could shoot it about as well as my G19. If I could consistently carry a G26 in a pocket holster in my shorts without a belt, that'd be ideal, but I'm not sure it's in the cards. It's more the weight than the size.

[BillSWPA]

I carry a Sig P365 in a pocket holster (currently a Pocket Concealment Systems Tomahawk) 5 days per week for 6-7 months per year. I previously carried a G26 in that role.

The P365 is noticeably thinner than the G26, but only a few ounces lighter. I do occasionally carry this gun in NPE’s.

I find that I can conceal either of these guns as well or better than a small revolver. Having 10+1, good tritium sights, and a good trigger are all helpful.

Reliability has not been an issue with my P365.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LJP]

I am pretty firmly in the J-frame camp. I do have a P365x, but the only semi-auto that I’ve been able to make work for pocket carry is a RM380. The caveat is that I’m not a big guy. The only pants pockets that I’ve really had any success with are pants from Duluth Trading. In the context of pocket carry, I think the J-frame is still a popular option for a lot of reasons. For me, it comes down to reliability, safety, concealment, and preference. There is a simple elegance that is appealing to me. I’m sure someone could argue any or all of those points. But that’s just what works for me. Figure out what comprises you’re willing to make and what performance metrics you can consistently meet with whatever you’re carrying. For me, a J-frame is a car length and one bad guy gun. I’m okay with that. I was in the “always carry a compact service pistol with at least one spare magazine” camp for a long time. Lots of factors have changed that for me, but rule one still applies.

In the roles discussed (pocket, BUG, NPE, etc.), I think the small revolver has a lot to offer. At the moment, I choose between a 642, 43C, or LCR. The J-frames are definitely more svelte than the LCR… at such time that I have sufficient disposable income, I will likely add a M&P 340 to the list of choices due to its light weight and superior front sight.

[titsonritz]

My S&W 442 w/ LG-405 in Mika holster lives in my front pocket(s). I have G43 and have tried other small 9mm autos, I just like the shape of the little J-frame better, not only the snag-free pull but the grip hangs out better for my mitt to git.

[Edster]

I really, really tried to make a 642 work for me. It is the right combination of shape, size, and minimum ballistic performance for pocket carry.

I shot a Glock 43 much better with much less effort. When shooting at distances beyond 7 yards, the G43 simply trounced the 642. Most of it was due to dramatically better sights on the G43. I tried a Crimson Trace but couldn't break myself of the "find the sights" habit. Honestly, I didn't much want to, either.

For me, the G43 is about 10% harder to carry than a 642 but at least 60% easier to make good hits with. The bonus is I can reload faster and have better ammo choices. Plus I can use a front sight that matches the ammo I prefer rather than the other way around.

A good IWB holster with a DCC monoclip lets the little Glock ride in the waistband of drawstring shorts or pants. Anytime I need a low-administrative, no time to dress around it gun, the G43 does what the J Frame did for me.

In a pinch, I can pocket carry a G43 with an AHolster but it feels like pocketing a small hardcover notebook. It's also prints as a noticeable "thing". So I rarely pocket carry these days. Even if I absolutely had to pocket carry, I'd figure out a way to make the G43 work.

[Jim Watson]

Ruger LC9s clears my pockets better than G43.
Either is more accurate than my old M38 and holds more ammo.

[feudist]

I'd recommend 3 P&S episodes.
Snubbies
The applicability of small caliber pistols
Optimal is not universal.

Those have DB, Claude and Rhett discussing the mission and threat profile of snubs and mice guns.

My experience as a long time pocket option aficionado: functionally my 2 KelTecs, LCP, LCP 2, LCP .22, Beretta Bobcat, Taurus PLY and Kahr CW9 haven't been better than 80% reliable.
Functionally, my Glock 42 is 99% reliable.
Deploying them gets far worse. Popped magazines, fouled draws, hung up draws, limp wristing. light strikes, weak hand interference with the slide etc. I keep detailed training notes and this is just a feature of small autos if you push them, at least IME. You are guaranteed one shot. (Except the LCP .22, then it's zero)
Contrast this with my 442 which across 28 years has never failed to go bang and never failed to slide unconsciously from my pocket.
It's larger, harder to shoot, hurts my hand, is impossible to reload in a timely manner...but it always fires more than once.
IMO shots 2-5 are a lot more important than 6-10.

[Duelist]

I'd recommend 3 P&S episodes.
Snubbies
The applicability of small caliber pistols
Optimal is not universal.

Those have DB, Claude and Rhett discussing the mission and threat profile of snubs and mice guns.

My experience as a long time pocket option aficionado: functionally my 2 KelTecs, LCP, LCP 2, LCP .22, Beretta Bobcat, Taurus PLY and Kahr CW9 haven't been better than 80% reliable.
Functionally, my Glock 42 is 99% reliable.
Deploying them gets far worse. Popped magazines, fouled draws, hung up draws, limp wristing. light strikes, weak hand interference with the slide etc. I keep detailed training notes and this is just a feature of small autos if you push them, at least IME. You are guaranteed one shot. (Except the LCP .22, then it's zero)
Contrast this with my 442 which across 28 years has never failed to go bang and never failed to slide unconsciously from my pocket.
It's larger, harder to shoot, hurts my hand, is impossible to reload in a timely manner...but it always fires more than once.
IMO shots 2-5 are a lot more important than 6-10.

That math works for me, too.

[titsonritz]

I'd recommend 3 P&S episodes.
Snubbies
The applicability of small caliber pistols
Optimal is not universal.

Those have DB, Claude and Rhett discussing the mission and threat profile of snubs and mice guns.

My experience as a long time pocket option aficionado: functionally my 2 KelTecs, LCP, LCP 2, LCP .22, Beretta Bobcat, Taurus PLY and Kahr CW9 haven't been better than 80% reliable.
Functionally, my Glock 42 is 99% reliable.
Deploying them gets far worse. Popped magazines, fouled draws, hung up draws, limp wristing. light strikes, weak hand interference with the slide etc. I keep detailed training notes and this is just a feature of small autos if you push them, at least IME. You are guaranteed one shot. (Except the LCP .22, then it's zero)
Contrast this with my 442 which across 28 years has never failed to go bang and never failed to slide unconsciously from my pocket.
It's larger, harder to shoot, hurts my hand, is impossible to reload in a timely manner...but it always fires more than once.
IMO shots 2-5 are a lot more important than 6-10.

A plug for Euro style mag releases when it comes to pocket carry. Once upon a time I had a NAA .32 that suppose to be an improved Seecamp, it was not.

[krav51]

I hope no one here is advocating the pocket carry of any striker fired pistol without a holster, particularly those with out a manual safety. I much prefer a 5 shot snub or DAO hammerless semi auto for this role. Everything else goes in a holster on a belt.

[Hambo]

I'm not in a rush to replace my 442, but a 365 with a thumb safety and Aholster is my plan. I've tried a friend's, and from the pocket of the pants I wear it will work.

[JAD]

I have recently completely switched from a 442 to a P365 for this role. It’s been reliable, I hit much better with it, I have slightly more confidence in its terminal ballistics, and it conceals better in a Mika. It’s also
my NPE/didn’t dress for it carry. I enjoy the fact that it shares holsters with my RDS-bearing P365XL, which I’m comfortable with as a summer EDC. I do find that being able to pop it on AIWB and have it well concealed under a thin t shirt is often preferable to clearing out my shorts pocket for the Mika — or throwing on an overshirt to hide a more capable gun.

As winter approaches pocket carry, which only works in shorts for me, fades. But then I have no problem concealing a service pistol under winter tops in comfort.

[Clusterfrack]

I went through this quandary as well. I tried a LCR9, but found it too large for comfortable EDC in a pocket. As well, I struggled to keep my skills fresh with it because the majority of my practice is with autos, and the ergos (especially grip) are so different. So, when I'm not carrying my "real" carry gun, I've settled on a Kahr P380 with Lehigh XP 90gr+p (1000fps). It's tiny, draws from a pocket quickly (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50494-Mouseguns&p=1292887&viewfull=1#post1292887), and I'm able to shoot it reasonably well (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50494-Mouseguns&p=1295471&viewfull=1#post1295471).

[Dov]

I used to carry a G26 a lot, including in a pocket holster. While it was on the absolute large end of what I could carry, it was doable in pants with a belt. My issue is that I have doubts it would be doable in shorts without a belt. It's just got the stretchy waistband. I agree about the G26 being way more shootable than a J Frame or smaller 9mm's. I could shoot it about as well as my G19. If I could consistently carry a G26 in a pocket holster in my shorts without a belt, that'd be ideal, but I'm not sure it's in the cards. It's more the weight than the size.

Yeah I can't see pocket carrying the G26 without a belt.

I don't wear shorts much, ones I have normally only use for like walk to mailbox or answering door & such, nothing really away from home.

The shorts I have are old 5.11 shorts with what I think is a Military type dress belt (light canvass infinitely adjustable),it does okay supporting the J frame.

Occasionally I have pocket carried G26 in those shorts but that requires pulling shorts up frequently.

[4RNR]

For the "stretchy shorts pocket" I settled on LCP380.

I CANT STAND pocket carry as it relates to actually getting dressed to go out into the world and I don't wear shorts outside of the house. Also have issues with none existent grips (some are better than others. Varies by gun). So I came to the conclusion that when walking around my neighborhood in gym shorts I need something flatter and lighter than a J frame and overall smaller than a micro 9.

6 - 7 rounds of 380. Small, "light", flat. Great to take on a dog walk. Sometimes I throw it in the pocket if the doorbell rings or if I hear weird shit outside.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[Rex G]

The “softer” the fabric, the more I would want to avoid pocketing ANY striker-fired auto, or ANYTHING with a spur on the hammer. The back of the slide, on a striker-fired auto, is just too much of a liability. If one has not listened to what DB says about this matter, in the Primary & Secondary episode on Snubbies, either the podcast or the you-tube video, well, play it, and listen carefully. In short, what works, while standing on a square range, may well fail in the real world.

Personally, if a G26 is too big, well, my next step down is a concealed-hammer J-snub. My next step down is a Seecamp. In actual practice, I rarely carry smaller than a spur-less SP101. (I train less, with J-snubs, because they are painful, for my aging hands, relegating my J-snubs to niche status.)

Edited to add: I consider a G26 and an SP101 to be size-equivalent, though the spurless SP101 is obviously more snag-proof.

[Rex G]

Serious suggestion: Buy a Phlster Enigma Express, already set-up for a Glock G26. For the elastic-waistband lifestyle, it is THE BEST solution. The Enigma makes all of those smaller-than-G26 9mm pistols largely unnecessary, in my opinion.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I could not comfortably carry a G26 in a pocket. It was always a belt gun for me. For my pocket - my choices are two J frame - a 432 or 642 vs. a G42 Glock.

With the right choice of pants with pockets - they are doable. The 432 is lighter than the 642 and offers a extra round. However, they are not made anymore. If I look at the archetypal, one or two mugger SD situation, I shoot all three decently enough. I do shoot the G42 a touch better. IDPA was more BUG friendly than local USPSA but we are going to run carry gun matches once we go inside for the winter.

I do find the J grip easily to establish in my pocket. I have worn the G42 on my belt when my old back was on the fritz. Otherwise belt was the 26.

I did take Claude's snubby class and you can shoot them decently if you practice up. Bottom line is that most of the time if I pocket carry, it's the 432. Light weight, 6 rounds. I try to avoid pocket carry but only do it when dress and circumstance dictate. Of course, I'm not carrying much now (yell at the cloud), given the brilliant victory of Bruen (see if in appeal, it does turn out to be a victory before I age out).

[Tuefelhunden]

Other pocket options single stack a P938 and for more capacity a S&W M&P CSX. An outlier that carries surprisingly well is the discontinued but findable Sig P232 aluminum frame with a heel mag release. The shape and weight lends itself well to pocket carry.

[TheNewbie]

I'd recommend 3 P&S episodes.
Snubbies
The applicability of small caliber pistols
Optimal is not universal.

Those have DB, Claude and Rhett discussing the mission and threat profile of snubs and mice guns.

My experience as a long time pocket option aficionado: functionally my 2 KelTecs, LCP, LCP 2, LCP .22, Beretta Bobcat, Taurus PLY and Kahr CW9 haven't been better than 80% reliable.
Functionally, my Glock 42 is 99% reliable.
Deploying them gets far worse. Popped magazines, fouled draws, hung up draws, limp wristing. light strikes, weak hand interference with the slide etc. I keep detailed training notes and this is just a feature of small autos if you push them, at least IME. You are guaranteed one shot. (Except the LCP .22, then it's zero)
Contrast this with my 442 which across 28 years has never failed to go bang and never failed to slide unconsciously from my pocket.
It's larger, harder to shoot, hurts my hand, is impossible to reload in a timely manner...but it always fires more than once.
IMO shots 2-5 are a lot more important than 6-10.


Which Kel Tecs?

[wmu12071]

I went through this quandary as well. I tried a LCR9, but found it too large for comfortable EDC in a pocket. As well, I struggled to keep my skills fresh with it because the majority of my practice is with autos, and the ergos (especially grip) are so different. So, when I'm not carrying my "real" carry gun, I've settled on a Kahr P380 with Lehigh XP 90gr+p (1000fps). It's tiny, draws from a pocket quickly (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50494-Mouseguns&p=1292887&viewfull=1#post1292887), and I'm able to shoot it reasonably well (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50494-Mouseguns&p=1295471&viewfull=1#post1295471).

Every time I see a post about the P380 I think I need one. I love the P32 for its size and light recoil but I hate the sights.

[LockedBreech]

My stretchy pants / quick jaunt is a LCP Max with a reload in the other pocket. 23 rounds of .380 on tap is pretty good.

I don't like being undergunned though, so whenever possible I belt carry the Shield Plus with a reload. Works just fine under a T-shirt for walking around the neighborhood purposes.

[CDW4ME]

I'm no fan of revolvers. Comparatively low capacity (needed or not) a heavier trigger and more felt recoil than a pistol of similar power (38 snub vs 9mm).
Kahr PM9 (CM9) holstered in pocket offers two more rounds capacity than a snub and its smaller in length & height.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/kahr-cm9-vs-smith-wesson-model-642

Snub versus Sig 365 aint even a contest, the 365 has twice the capacity and is easier to shoot quick.

[RAM Engineer]

I'm no fan of revolvers. Comparatively low capacity (needed or not) a heavier trigger and more felt recoil than a pistol of similar power (38 snub vs 9mm).
Kahr PM9 (CM9) holstered in pocket offers two more rounds capacity than a snub and its smaller in length & height.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/kahr-cm9-vs-smith-wesson-model-642

Snub versus Sig 365 aint even a contest, the 365 has twice the capacity and is easier to shoot quick.

Contact, Entanglement, Compromised-Grip?

[Rex G]

[QUOTE=CDW4ME;1392719Snub versus Sig 365 aint even a contest, the 365 has twice the capacity and is easier to shoot quick.[/QUOTE]

Well, nothing is “easier to shoot quick,” until it successfully clears that pocket, and can be successfully pointed/aimed at the threat.

Arguably, one pockets a snub-gun, to most-quickly-and-smoothly start shooting, when already “in trouble*,” and then finishes with a duty/service-sized weapon. This combination provides for a best start, and a best finish. Of course, if one senses trouble, in advance, use the large auto, from the start. Everything else is some kind of compromise. (Of course, using a handgun is, itself, a compromise, when long guns exist, but few of us can readily tote loaded long guns, during our daily activities.)

*The Primary & Secondary episode, on Snubbies, covers the “get out of trouble gun,” as opposed to the gun that one chooses to use for getting into trouble, looking for trouble, or deliberately hunting for the bad guy(s).

[feudist]

Which Kel Tecs?

2 P3ATs and a P32 I forgot. The P-32 was a good deal better than the .380s, although it did actually break(used gun, unknown wear). I only fired ball and it was much easier on my hand.

[titsonritz]

Well, nothing is “easier to shoot quick,” until it successfully clears that pocket, and can be successfully pointed/aimed at the threat.

Arguably, one pockets a snub-gun, to most-quickly-and-smoothly start shooting, when already “in trouble*,” and then finishes with a duty/service-sized weapon. This combination provides for a best start, and a best finish. Of course, if one senses trouble, in advance, use the large auto, from the start. Everything else is some kind of compromise. (Of course, using a handgun is, itself, a compromise, when long guns exist, but few of us can readily tote loaded long guns, during our daily activities.)

*The Primary & Secondary episode, on Snubbies, covers the “get out of trouble gun,” as opposed to the gun that one chooses to use for getting into trouble, looking for trouble, or deliberately hunting for the bad guy(s).

^^^All of this. My pocket carry 442 is a BUG to my G19, if I'm reaching into my pocket it a real bad day and may call for contact shooting, a revolver gets the nod here.

[Chuck Haggard]

Short answer to be followed up on;

Nothing has drawn as clean from a pocket for me as a internal hammer snub such as the 642 or LCR.

Most of the small semi autos I've tried were nowhere near as reliable as my snubs. I am not the only person to observe this.

One reason many people don't is that they do not commonly draw their carry gun and shoot it in the manner that they were carrying it, ie without unloading the carry ammo and reloading the gun with ball ammo. Fired as they have been carried I note many semi autos have a "one round and a stovepipe" habit.

[TCinVA]

I carry a mid or full size pistol every day IWB. However, sometimes when taking the dog out at night I wish I had something I could just throw in a pocket holster in my stretchy shorts (no belt) and head out, or take out the trash, get mail, etc...
While my next purchase will be primarily for that purpose, I'd also like for it to double as a BUG to my primary.


I've tried several times, but I have yet to find anything better than a J frame to serve in that particular role.

Just last week I ended up carrying the J frame in gym shorts in a Dark Star Gear holster when I was handling some chores around the house, then switching it to pocket carry when I needed to head out to a business meeting and dinner downtown. (Parking garages are great places to get ambushed. Nobody thinks anything is wrong when you walk with your hand in your pocket) Before going out I had to take out some trash, grab some mail from the mailbox, kill a wasps nest, etc...the J was on me the whole time for that. If I saw something that concerned me I'd upgrade to the shotgun that was usually not very far away.

Out in town the ability to have a ~ 1/2 second draw to vital shot with the .38 is pretty effective. Note that this isn't really backup gun use as much as it is secondary weapon use. The pocket J isn't my first choice for a fighting handgun unless we're talking about being able to have a master grip established on the weapon while an unknown contact is maneuvering on you in close quarters. In that one instance it's an exceptionally nasty little surprise for at least a couple of bad guys and if you pair the draw with some movement you'll likely be able to put an end to an intended criminal assault PDQ. If I do need more ammo, well...I have a duty grade semi-auto carried AIWB.

The J frame isn't the greatest defensive handgun ever devised, but in the particular niche you're discussing I've looked for 20 years and not found anything that does what it does as well as it does it.

None of the recent introductions on the market have changed that for me.

[TCinVA]

Short answer to be followed up on;

Nothing has drawn as clean from a pocket for me as a internal hammer snub such as the 642 or LCR.

Most of the small semi autos I've tried were nowhere near as reliable as my snubs. I am not the only person to observe this.

One reason many people don't is that they do not commonly draw their carry gun and shoot it in the manner that they were carrying it, ie without unloading the carry ammo and reloading the gun with ball ammo. Fired as they have been carried I note many semi autos have a "one round and a stovepipe" habit.

Yeah.

Micro guns are often shot with a full, solid grip...not the grip people actually get on them in an emergency deployment.

Drawing to a bad grip is more common than drawing to a good one with all handguns. This is one of the reasons why we see so many misses in fighting situations and why handguns have a much spottier record for reliability in real world use than range use. I've not found a micro semi-auto that works nearly well enough to depend on like my J frames.

Revolvers in general are inferior to modern semi-automatics in terms of durability and reliability...except in these small sizes and to the extent that they depend on a good grip to work.

There really just isn't a better mousetrap for the gun that can serve as a belt-carried primary and run from a pocket like a J frame with a shrouded hammer as far as I know.

That's why you see guys who know some shit like Chuck packing them.

[RevolverRob]

Between the two choices, a 9mm pocket rocket or a 642. The answer for me is 642. The only gun I've found that carries better is an LCP, but that's a step down in terms of performance from a 642 loaded with wadcutters. I'd be perfectly happy with a 642 loaded with wadcutters as my go-to for pocket carry.

If I was only going to own one gun for the rest of my life, it would probably be an Airweight J-Frame, though in my case a 2.5" 638.

[Jason M]

Yeah.

Micro guns are often shot with a full, solid grip...not the grip people actually get on them in an emergency deployment.

Drawing to a bad grip is more common than drawing to a good one with all handguns. This is one of the reasons why we see so many misses in fighting situations and why handguns have a much spottier record for reliability in real world use than range use. I've not found a micro semi-auto that works nearly well enough to depend on like my J frames.

Revolvers in general are inferior to modern semi-automatics in terms of durability and reliability...except in these small sizes and to the extent that they depend on a good grip to work.

There really just isn't a better mousetrap for the gun that can serve as a belt-carried primary and run from a pocket like a J frame with a shrouded hammer as far as I know.

That's why you see guys who know some shit like Chuck packing them.

That's what makes the shrouded hammer J frame so perfect for the pocket. It allows one, with the proper pants and holster combo, the ability to have a full firing grip while remaining concealed from view. While it is not as efficient in other roles, it really does excel in the pocket. I tried the G43 from the pocket. The J frame was more reliable every time.

[feudist]

That's what makes the shrouded hammer J frame so perfect for the pocket. It allows one, with the proper pants and holster combo, the ability to have a full firing grip while remaining concealed from view. While it is not as efficient in other roles, it really does excel in the pocket. I tried the G43 from the pocket. The J frame was more reliable every time.

The non-telegraphed sub second center hit at conversational range is probably the most concentrated dose of surprise violence short of a Claymore initiated ambush.

If that doesn't rest his OODA loop you probably need to go for headbone.

[titsonritz]

And for the love of God, guys need to stop buying J-frames for their wife/girlfriend on the belief the are the perfect women's gun, they are not nor are they a beginner's gun, they are a professional's gun and require high level of dedication to employ them effectively. Yes, they are easy to conceal and carry but with their long, heavy trigger pull, short sight radius, diminutive grip and heavy recoil they are simple not an easy gun to shoot well and many women and beginning shootings will be turned off by this fact. The 442 in my pocket sat a woman's sock drawer for 30 years with only five rounds thru it. Her old man got for her, she shot it once and that was it, she was done with it. I just shake my head when I see those gun counter guys talking them up to some poor woman out buying her first gun, apparently because women are too stupid to use a semi-auto pistol.

[blues]

The non-telegraphed sub second center hit at conversational range is probably the most concentrated dose of surprise violence short of a Claymore initiated ambush.

If that doesn't reset his OODA loop you probably need to go for headbone.


My God, that was simply beautiful to read. I really didn't know you had that in you. (Preserved for posterity.)

https://c.tenor.com/tnPNMwV-Gv4AAAAM/bravo-slow-hand-clap.gif


:cool:

[JAD]

TCinVA has a really good point. I will see how the 365 functions with a compromised grip.

[JHC]

And for the love of God, guys need to stop buying J-frames for their wife/girlfriend on the belief the are the perfect women's gun, they are not nor are they a beginner's gun, they are a professional's gun and require high level of dedication to employ them effectively. Yes, they are easy to conceal and carry but with their long, heavy trigger pull, short sight radius, diminutive grip and heavy recoil they are simple not an easy gun to shoot well and many women and beginning shootings will be turned off by this fact. The 442 in my pocket sat a woman's sock drawer for 30 years with only five rounds thru it. Her old man got for her, she shot it once and that was it, she was done with it. I just shake my head when I see those gun counter guys talking them up to some poor woman out buying her first gun, apparently because women are too stupid to use a semi-auto pistol.

Totally disagree because the context of many women's carry gun is to literally peel a cretin off of them and entangled fights are probably more common for them than for mano a mano. A 5, 7, or 8 shot snub is just too easy to always have, always employ cleanly and center hit a target out to 5 yards. I've yet to find the less than hobbiest enthusiast female who wanted to be armed that gave a single F'k about stopping a food court shooter at 25 plus yards.

re caliber Claude, DB, D-Con training have all made the case for sub caliber snubbies better than I can. Those are a way, not the only way.

Only 1 out of 5 non-hobbyist females I've seen couldn't work a J frame very well in that context. The one outlier went to somewhere else and chose a .32 Keltec that was sort of reliable most of the time. Great.

[feudist]

My God, that was simply beautiful to read. I really didn't know you had that in you. (Preserved for posterity.)

https://c.tenor.com/tnPNMwV-Gv4AAAAM/bravo-slow-hand-clap.gif


:cool:

Stop it!
I'm blushing.

[vcdgrips]

Late to the party.

I do not pocket carry much...but when I do... it is with a 642. Please know that I have not done the work with my stock 642 such that for me -it really is a 3-5 yrd kind of gun if I am running it at any speed.


IMHO--Feudist and Chuck H are dropping some Tactical Platinum in this realm.

If I missed this argument for the 642, I apologize- based on some limited Tuesday night training way back in the day (Thank you Goodwill) you can more reliably fire a 642 from inside the pocket that you can any semi auto. Particularly a subsequent shot.

Historically, the 642 has always been a niche gun for me
a. pocket carry
b. ankle backup
c. pocket carry backup
d. Xmas party and SWMBO wants me to wear the new tight sweater such that even AIWB with anything bigger is not optimum.

Otherwise I am firmly in the wear a quality belt mated to a quality holster and carry a G19 sized gun camp.

[blues]

Here's my choice...


94017


94018

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is a sample of one but my G42, when empty does not drop the mag. It has to be pulled out. That negates some of 'reloading speed' advantage of the little semi. I totally understand all the arguments about needing a reload given the average vs. extreme incident. My G42 was one of the horror show first ones and had to go back to Glock. Thus, I'm always leery of it just a bit.

I'm coming down on the Js for my everyday shorts and pants.

[Jason M]

The non-telegraphed sub second center hit at conversational range is probably the most concentrated dose of surprise violence short of a Claymore initiated ambush.

If that doesn't rest his OODA loop you probably need to go for headbone.

Center punching the headbone at that distance is really doable right out of the pocket.

[Rex G]

The spurless and concealed-hammer snub-guns are not, as I see them, “back-up” guns, but, simply the best, in their own class of weapon. Really, any gun can, in the manner of its use, be a “back-up gun.” And, during that decisive moment, when the snag-free, slick snub-gun, is best-suited, it is very much the “primary” weapon.

[TheNewbie]

2 P3ATs and a P32 I forgot. The P-32 was a good deal better than the .380s, although it did actually break(used gun, unknown wear). I only fired ball and it was much easier on my hand.


The P32 I have is a used Gen 1. It actually shoots well for basically having no sights, and they seem to be reliable. I wouldn’t put a ton of faith in it to hold up to 2000 rounds, but for the purpose I use it for, it works.


My Gen 1 LCP was reliable for over a decade and a few hundred rounds, but eventually broke.


I really wish the P232 was reliable. My two examples were not.

[titsonritz]

Totally disagree because the context of many women's carry gun is to literally peel a cretin off of them and entangled fights are probably more common for them than for mano a mano. A 5, 7, or 8 shot snub is just too easy to always have, always employ cleanly and center hit a target out to 5 yards. I've yet to find the less than hobbiest enthusiast female who wanted to be armed that gave a single F'k about stopping a food court shooter at 25 plus yards.

re caliber Claude, DB, D-Con training have all made the case for sub caliber snubbies better than I can. Those are a way, not the only way.

Only 1 out of 5 non-hobbyist females I've seen couldn't work a J frame very well in that context. The one outlier went to somewhere else and chose a .32 Keltec that was sort of reliable most of the time. Great.

Thanks for the thoughtful rebuttal and it sounds great on paper but what I'm seeing is the majority of women that shoot snubbies hurt their hands and they end up hating them. Here are several link to articles written by women shooters/trainers and what they are seeing with the ladies, most do not even mention J-frames or any revolver and if the do they are way down on the list with caveats such as...

The Smith & Wesson 642 is one of those models that you either love or hate. Some people find it uncomfortable to shoot, while others, like me, think it fits the hand pretty darn well.

Carrie Lightfoot of The Well Armed Woman said this about revolvers...

Once again there were no revolvers in the top 10 guns for women and in fact, a revolver didn’t show up on the list until the #17 spot. This data truly dispels the myth that women “need” or “should” have a revolver. Of course, revolvers are an excellent choice for many women, so don’t misunderstand or misinterpret this data to believe revolvers are not valued or don’t have a place with the woman shooter. In fact, if I look at the total number of revolvers purchased (Not by brand) they would have been equivalent in number to the 5thplace spot on the list. Revolvers are best for use in a concealed carry purse and for many with weak hands unable to rack a slide on a semi-automatic pistol, they are a godsend.

The Top 10 Most Popular Guns For Women – 2018 (https://thewellarmedwoman.com/about-guns/the-top-10-most-popular-guns-for-women-2018/)
Most Popular Guns For Women – 2019 (https://thewellarmedwoman.com/about-guns/guns-for-women-most-popular-2019/)
The Well Armed Woman's Top 10 Guns of 2020 (https://www.nrawomen.com/content/the-well-armed-woman-s-top-10-guns-of-2020/)
Most Popular Handguns and Gear for Women in 2021 (https://www.agirlandagun.org/most-popular-handguns-for-women/)
10 Best Handguns for Women [All Sizes & Calibers] (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-handguns-women/)

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your premise and while certainly capable most women don't want to deal the pain in the their hand. Mostly when I see a gal go towards and end up liking a revolver it is a K or L frame sized gun.

[Detmongo]

I have 2 micro nines and one 642. The 642 is my drop in the pocket gun more often than not. The revolvers lend them selves to easier pocket draw than the micro nines. Mind you all of them if pocket carried are always in a pocket holster.

[Joe in PNG]

I'd like to go back to a J Frame S&W for the occasional pocket tote, but...
-I'd want something from back when S&W knew how to make revolvers
-And didn't have the Hillary Lock
-I would want something with better sights, especially now that my eyes aren't as good
-I would need a constant source of good wadcutters, for both carry and practice

The temptation is to find another old Model 36, bob the hammer, add some rubber boot grips, and one of those glue on XS front sight.

[BillSWPA]

Totally disagree because the context of many women's carry gun is to literally peel a cretin off of them and entangled fights are probably more common for them than for mano a mano. A 5, 7, or 8 shot snub is just too easy to always have, always employ cleanly and center hit a target out to 5 yards. I've yet to find the less than hobbiest enthusiast female who wanted to be armed that gave a single F'k about stopping a food court shooter at 25 plus yards.

re caliber Claude, DB, D-Con training have all made the case for sub caliber snubbies better than I can. Those are a way, not the only way.

Only 1 out of 5 non-hobbyist females I've seen couldn't work a J frame very well in that context. The one outlier went to somewhere else and chose a .32 Keltec that was sort of reliable most of the time. Great.

The biggest mistake by far that I made when teaching my wife to shoot was letting her try a lightweight J frame. Even with only standard pressure practice ammo, it took me years to correct her resulting flinch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Short answer to be followed up on;

Nothing has drawn as clean from a pocket for me as a internal hammer snub such as the 642 or LCR.

Most of the small semi autos I've tried were nowhere near as reliable as my snubs. I am not the only person to observe this.

One reason many people don't is that they do not commonly draw their carry gun and shoot it in the manner that they were carrying it, ie without unloading the carry ammo and reloading the gun with ball ammo. Fired as they have been carried I note many semi autos have a "one round and a stovepipe" habit.

That's an interesting note on the stovepipe, what do you feel may cause this? I'd wager that cotton lint mixed with petroluem lube would do well to slow things down just enough to stop it once before it gets forced out of the way.

[SwampDweller]

Short answer to be followed up on;

Nothing has drawn as clean from a pocket for me as a internal hammer snub such as the 642 or LCR.

Most of the small semi autos I've tried were nowhere near as reliable as my snubs. I am not the only person to observe this.

One reason many people don't is that they do not commonly draw their carry gun and shoot it in the manner that they were carrying it, ie without unloading the carry ammo and reloading the gun with ball ammo. Fired as they have been carried I note many semi autos have a "one round and a stovepipe" habit.

It is Mr. Haggard's insight as well as many others that I'm convinced that a snub like a 642 no-lock or LCR is the way to go, for all the reasons listed. I suppose that defeats the purpose of this being in the semi auto forum, but that seems to be the conclusion I'm arriving to. I too have seen more than a few malfunctions on the range of people drawing their pocket micro pistol and subsequently having a stoppage of some kind, many times due to compromised grip. Not really a worry with a grip the size of a G19 and up, but just trying a few pocket autos at work today, I can tell it would be extremely easy to either get a compromised grip resulting in a stoppage, or the back of the auto getting caught in the pocket (which, if a finger slipped into the pocket holster and started yanking, bad things could happen), or dropping the magazine.

I've been listening to the P&S "Snubbies" podcast today, and it is a goldmine of information.

[Trstn]

The biggest mistake by far that I made when teaching my wife to shoot was letting her try a lightweight J frame. Even with only standard pressure practice ammo, it took me years to correct her resulting flinch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

22lr revolver is the correct answer. 8 rounds of federal punch 22lr all day over any 38 or larger round in a snub.

[Screwball]

Best of both worlds…

https://i.imgur.com/9il1W5G.jpg

I converted my 642-1 to 9mm. Also had it redone in NP3+. Still my off duty everything gun. Actually had it in my cargo pocket today, as I cut the grass.

J-frames take dedication. I’ve said it elsewhere, but unless you are willing to put in the time to practice, just go with a pocket 9mm. Easier to shoot.

When I converted mine, I was at the range practicing from not shooting it for three months (work being done). Had a RSO come by and tell me he will show me how to shoot. I had plenty of trigger time on the revolver prior to converting it, so I let him talk. He shot a group at 15 yards that three shots hit the paper… making like a 7” group. I put all 5 in a little over 2” group. Maybe had 25 rounds thru it after getting it back.

[BillSWPA]

22lr revolver is the correct answer. 8 rounds of federal punch 22lr all day over any 38 or larger round in a snub.

This assumes that the lady can manage the trigger. About 40% of the ladies I have taught had difficulty with triggers above 9 lb.

In my wife’s case, when she needs something tiny, it is my Kel-Tec P-32. Mine is 100% reliable and hits harder than any .22. I installed Wolf 11 lb. recoil springs and had some custom work done to improve its accuracy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HeavyDuty]

Best of both worlds…

https://i.imgur.com/9il1W5G.jpg

I converted my 642-1 to 9mm. Also had it redone in NP3+. Still my off duty everything gun. Actually had it in my cargo pocket today, as I cut the grass.

J-frames take dedication. I’ve said it elsewhere, but unless you are willing to put in the time to practice, just go with a pocket 9mm. Easier to shoot.

When I converted mine, I was at the range practicing from not shooting it for three months (work being done). Had a RSO come by and tell me he will show me how to shoot. I had plenty of trigger time on the revolver prior to converting it, so I let him talk. He shot a group at 15 yards that three shots hit the paper… making like a 7” group. I put all 5 in a little over 2” group. Maybe had 25 rounds thru it after getting it back.

What’s involved in converting to 9mm? I have a 442…

[SwampDweller]

Best of both worlds…

https://i.imgur.com/9il1W5G.jpg

I converted my 642-1 to 9mm. Also had it redone in NP3+. Still my off duty everything gun. Actually had it in my cargo pocket today, as I cut the grass.

J-frames take dedication. I’ve said it elsewhere, but unless you are willing to put in the time to practice, just go with a pocket 9mm. Easier to shoot.

When I converted mine, I was at the range practicing from not shooting it for three months (work being done). Had a RSO come by and tell me he will show me how to shoot. I had plenty of trigger time on the revolver prior to converting it, so I let him talk. He shot a group at 15 yards that three shots hit the paper… making like a 7” group. I put all 5 in a little over 2” group. Maybe had 25 rounds thru it after getting it back.

Who did the conversion? Also, didn't S&W make a J-frame 9mm? I can't find it in current production anywhere.

ETA: I'm also looking at the 640 all-steel J frame in .357. I would have no intention of shooting .357 out of it, but I figure it would be more pleasant to shoot/practice with than the Airweight. The 642 is 14.4 oz while the 640 is 22.1 oz. I don't have anything to compare it too, so I'm not sure if that'd drag my shorts down or not.

[Spartan1980]

I'd like to go back to a J Frame S&W for the occasional pocket tote, but...
-I'd want something from back when S&W knew how to make revolvers
-And didn't have the Hillary Lock
-I would want something with better sights, especially now that my eyes aren't as good
-I would need a constant source of good wadcutters, for both carry and practice

The temptation is to find another old Model 36, bob the hammer, add some rubber boot grips, and one of those glue on XS front sight.

Not a bad plan with the 36 but S&W does make runs of no-lock 442/642's on occasion. I have a 642-1 that doesn't have the lock. Other that that it's nothing special. I know some years back they made some 442s without it too, so they are out there.

ETA: I just saw Screwball's converted 642. It's like that but no moons.

[Screwball]

What’s involved in converting to 9mm? I have a 442…

Remove cylinder… send to either Pinnacle High Performance or TK Custom. I am partial to Pinnacle.

And then need moonclips, since there isn’t a headspace with the conversion.


Who did the conversion? Also, didn't S&W make a J-frame 9mm? I can't find it in current production anywhere.

ETA: I'm also looking at the 640 all-steel J frame in .357. I would have no intention of shooting .357 out of it, but I figure it would be more pleasant to shoot/practice with than the Airweight. The 642 is 14.4 oz while the 640 is 22.1 oz. I don't have anything to compare it too, so I'm not sure if that'd drag my shorts down or not.

940 was the stainless 9mm they made. There were a lot of issues with them and sticking chambers.

There was one 942 made… info below.

https://i.imgur.com/aBV4c2h.png

https://i.imgur.com/SQMsXJ3.png

From The Standard Catalog of S&W by Supica and Nahas.

[Blades]

Every time I see a post about the P380 I think I need one. I love the P32 for its size and light recoil but I hate the sights.

What sights? :) I took my P32 to the range and realized something on it besides a grove at the top of the slide has to be an improvement. I'm thinking a fiber optic rod glued to the top, or this laser (https://www.amazon.com/ArmaLaser-Super-Bright-Laser-Sight-Activation/dp/B008R9IKQM). I saw this P-sight (http://psenhancements.com/) and the price is right but they don't work on second generation P-32's. :( It's a back-up to a back-up and I realize I will have to be close to get any hits on a target.

I've wondered about using the Mod 3 DCC clip and a cord to help carry the weight of a pocket holster(say a G26), but worry the cord could compromise the draw.
https://i.imgur.com/W9cWqah.png

[Joe in PNG]

Not a bad plan with the 36 but S&W does make runs of no-lock 442/642's on occasion. I have a 642-1 that doesn't have the lock. Other that that it's nothing special. I know some years back they made some 442s without it too, so they are out there.

I actually want the little bit of heaviness that the all steel 36 has. An old Bodyguard or other all steel K would also be very welcome.

[HeavyDuty]

An Airweight J in 9mm with 547 style headspace and ejection… I’ll be in my bunk.

[TheNewbie]

Screwball


I know it won’t extract and that you may have to poke the cartridges out, but can you shoot your converted 642 without moon clips?

[TC215]

An Airweight J in 9mm with 547 style headspace and ejection… I’ll be in my bunk.

I had a 940 and it wasn’t much fun to shoot. I can’t imagine that an airweight 9mm would be pleasant.

[Screwball]

Screwball


I know it won’t extract and that you may have to poke the cartridges out, but can you shoot your converted 642 without moon clips?

Nope. The longer .38 or .357 chamber doesn’t allow that.

The moonclip is what headspaces the rounds.

[jandbj]

22lr revolver is the correct answer. 8 rounds of federal punch 22lr all day over any 38 or larger round in a snub.

Both of my 43c pistols love velocitors.

[Trstn]

Both of my 43c pistols love velocitors.

Velocitors would be my second choice behind the punch.

[jandbj]

What sights? :) I took my P32 to the range and realized something on it besides a grove at the top of the slide has to be an improvement. I'm thinking a fiber optic rod glued to the top, or this laser (https://www.amazon.com/ArmaLaser-Super-Bright-Laser-Sight-Activation/dp/B008R9IKQM). I saw this P-sight (http://psenhancements.com/) and the price is right but they don't work on second generation P-32's. :( It's a back-up to a back-up and I realize I will have to be close to get any hits on a target.

I've wondered about using the Mod 3 DCC clip and a cord to help carry the weight of a pocket holster(say a G26), but worry the cord could compromise the draw.
https://i.imgur.com/W9cWqah.png

P32 sights - https://innovativearms.com/portfolio/sight-upgrade/

Other option is find a Ruger LCP Custom. That one has similar sights and came factory direct.

[awp_101]

Remove cylinder… send to either Pinnacle High Performance or TK Custom. I am partial to Pinnacle.

And then need moonclips, since there isn’t a headspace with the conversion.
Just cylinder work? No barrel work needed, right?

[Screwball]

Just cylinder work? No barrel work needed, right?

Just cylinder.

[awp_101]

Just cylinder.

Thanks!

[Half Moon]

Who did the conversion? Also, didn't S&W make a J-frame 9mm? I can't find it in current production anywhere.

ETA: I'm also looking at the 640 all-steel J frame in .357. I would have no intention of shooting .357 out of it, but I figure it would be more pleasant to shoot/practice with than the Airweight. The 642 is 14.4 oz while the 640 is 22.1 oz. I don't have anything to compare it too, so I'm not sure if that'd drag my shorts down or not.

The weight difference between all-steel and airweight J's is noticeable in the pocket. With the right holster and sized pockets the all-steel is managable but definitely not the 'forget it's there' class of the airweights. Recoil of the airweights with standard pressure, and especially wadcutters, is perfectly manageable though you may need to modify your grasp to avoid getting cut by the cylinder release latch. The 640's on the J Magnum frame are slightly longer and ride a little higher too which may or may not slow establishing a pocket grip depending on the pocket. Not discouraging the 640, I carry one myself sometimes, but the airweights do feel much more.comfortable going about your daily business.

[SwampDweller]

The weight difference between all-steel and airweight J's is noticeable in the pocket. With the right holster and sized pockets the all-steel is managable but definitely not the 'forget it's there' class of the airweights. Recoil of the airweights with standard pressure, and especially wadcutters, is perfectly manageable though you may need to modify your grasp to avoid getting cut by the cylinder release latch. The 640's on the J Magnum frame are slightly longer and ride a little higher too which may or may not slow establishing a pocket grip depending on the pocket. Not discouraging the 640, I carry one myself sometimes, but the airweights do feel much more.comfortable going about your daily business.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards the 642. I figure loaded with some Federal or Black Hills standard pressure wadcutters, it should be manageable enough for my purposes. I plan on carrying it with standard pressure wadcutters exclusively.

[titsonritz]

Best of both worlds…

https://i.imgur.com/9il1W5G.jpg

I converted my 642-1 to 9mm. Also had it redone in NP3+. Still my off duty everything gun. Actually had it in my cargo pocket today, as I cut the grass.

J-frames take dedication. I’ve said it elsewhere, but unless you are willing to put in the time to practice, just go with a pocket 9mm. Easier to shoot.

When I converted mine, I was at the range practicing from not shooting it for three months (work being done). Had a RSO come by and tell me he will show me how to shoot. I had plenty of trigger time on the revolver prior to converting it, so I let him talk. He shot a group at 15 yards that three shots hit the paper… making like a 7” group. I put all 5 in a little over 2” group. Maybe had 25 rounds thru it after getting it back.

Something to keep in mind with light-weight 9mm J-frames, automatic cartridges such as 9mm do not have a cannelure or crimp like .38spl and other revolver rounds, heavy recoil can act like a kinetic bullet puller. It is more of an issue the super LW titanium models but given the lack of crimp I would want check for it with harder recoiling ammo or just refrain from +p ammo even the steel cylinders.

[RevolverRob]

Personally, I wouldn't consider a 9mm converted Airweight to be anything besides a gun that is four boxes of ammo away from going out of time. There is a reason why 9mm guns were built on steel frames (940) or the .357Magnum frame of the LCR. Standard pressure 9mm is 2-3x peak pressure than .38 Special +P.

If I'm buying a new J-Frame tomorrow - 340 M&P no lock. Because real front sight, I'm only going to load it with Wadcutters, anyways, and it's a bit more shootable than the 340PD by weighing about 2.5oz more.

A loaded 642 is ~16.5oz, a loaded 340 M&P is ~14.75oz. With wadcutters you're unlikely to notice the weight loss. But I can guarantee you'll notice the improved sight picture.

[Screwball]

Something to keep in mind with light-weight 9mm J-frames, automatic cartridges such as 9mm do not have a cannelure or crimp like .38spl and other revolver rounds, heavy recoil can act like a kinetic bullet puller. It is more of an issue the super LW titanium models but given the lack of crimp I would want check for it with harder recoiling ammo or just refrain from +p ammo even the steel cylinders.

Hornady crimps are good to go.


Personally, I wouldn't consider a 9mm converted Airweight to be anything besides a gun that is four boxes of ammo away from going out of time. There is a reason why 9mm guns were built on steel frames (940) or the .357Magnum frame of the LCR. Standard pressure 9mm is 2-3x peak pressure than .38 Special +P.

Except the one that S&W built… was done prior to Scandium.

My 642-1 is still in time, and I put that much ammo just over the summer (mainly due to shortage). Gun has been running/carried/trained with since 2015.

[TheNewbie]

Nope. The longer .38 or .357 chamber doesn’t allow that.

The moonclip is what headspaces the rounds.


That kind of stinks. The LCR 9mm can fire the rounds without moon clips, though extraction is an issue when not using moon clips.


Still a cool setup. Wonder if a cylinder could be made that allowed for the firing of 9mm sans clips, if you needed to do so.

[RevolverRob]

Hornady crimps are good to go.



Except the one that S&W built… was done prior to Scandium.

My 642-1 is still in time, and I put that much ammo just over the summer (mainly due to shortage). Gun has been running/carried/trained with since 2015.

The 940 is/was a steel frame gun, not aluminum.

[Half Moon]

That kind of stinks. The LCR 9mm can fire the rounds without moon clips, though extraction is an issue when not using moon clips.


Still a cool setup. Wonder if a cylinder could be made that allowed for the firing of 9mm sans clips, if you needed to do so.

Don't see why not. It should just be a matter of cutting a shoulder in the chamber to headspace on. Many of the .45.ACP revolvers.have this plus, of course, 9mm Blackhawks, etc. The problem is of course ejection but there you go.

[BillSWPA]

What sights? :) I took my P32 to the range and realized something on it besides a grove at the top of the slide has to be an improvement. I'm thinking a fiber optic rod glued to the top, or this laser (https://www.amazon.com/ArmaLaser-Super-Bright-Laser-Sight-Activation/dp/B008R9IKQM). I saw this P-sight (http://psenhancements.com/) and the price is right but they don't work on second generation P-32's. :( It's a back-up to a back-up and I realize I will have to be close to get any hits on a target.

I've wondered about using the Mod 3 DCC clip and a cord to help carry the weight of a pocket holster(say a G26), but worry the cord could compromise the draw.
https://i.imgur.com/W9cWqah.png

The best current improvement on P-32 and P3AT sights is a Crimson Trace LaserGuard. The laser is useless outdoors during the day, but is game changing indoors any time and outdoors in reduced light. So, in the reduced light when the gun is most likely to be needed, it is most helpful.

Before these became available, a gunsmith named David Clay would mill a channel from the rear of the slide to a position just behind the ejection port. A tritium vial went on either side of the channel, and a third tritium vial went in the other end of the channel, just behind the ejection port. The result was a 3 dot sight picture with a reduced sight radius. He called it a tritium channel sight.

When David Clay modified my P-32, he also removed material from the left side of the slide where it supports the muzzle, and welded material to the right side. The result was to move the point of impact from about 5 inches right at 30 feet to horizontally centered at any reasonable distance.

Both my P-32 and P3AT function best with recoil springs 2 lb. heavier than factory standard. I use 11 lb. In my P-32 and 13 lb. In my P3AT.

The P-32 is absolutely the best available choice for someone who needs a truly tiny defensive gun with minimal recoil. Both this gun and the P3AT have been my choice at times when the gun absolutely, positively had to stay well hidden.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

Thanks for the thoughtful rebuttal and it sounds great on paper but what I'm seeing is the majority of women that shoot snubbies hurt their hands and they end up hating them. Here are several link to articles written by women shooters/trainers and what they are seeing with the ladies, most do not even mention J-frames or any revolver and if the do they are way down on the list with caveats such as...

The Smith & Wesson 642 is one of those models that you either love or hate. Some people find it uncomfortable to shoot, while others, like me, think it fits the hand pretty darn well.

Carrie Lightfoot of The Well Armed Woman said this about revolvers...

Once again there were no revolvers in the top 10 guns for women and in fact, a revolver didn’t show up on the list until the #17 spot. This data truly dispels the myth that women “need” or “should” have a revolver. Of course, revolvers are an excellent choice for many women, so don’t misunderstand or misinterpret this data to believe revolvers are not valued or don’t have a place with the woman shooter. In fact, if I look at the total number of revolvers purchased (Not by brand) they would have been equivalent in number to the 5thplace spot on the list. Revolvers are best for use in a concealed carry purse and for many with weak hands unable to rack a slide on a semi-automatic pistol, they are a godsend.

The Top 10 Most Popular Guns For Women – 2018 (https://thewellarmedwoman.com/about-guns/the-top-10-most-popular-guns-for-women-2018/)
Most Popular Guns For Women – 2019 (https://thewellarmedwoman.com/about-guns/guns-for-women-most-popular-2019/)
The Well Armed Woman's Top 10 Guns of 2020 (https://www.nrawomen.com/content/the-well-armed-woman-s-top-10-guns-of-2020/)
Most Popular Handguns and Gear for Women in 2021 (https://www.agirlandagun.org/most-popular-handguns-for-women/)
10 Best Handguns for Women [All Sizes & Calibers] (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-handguns-women/)

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your premise and while certainly capable most women don't want to deal the pain in the their hand. Mostly when I see a gal go towards and end up liking a revolver it is a K or L frame sized gun.


I'm 180 out from your view that the J frame is for the extremely highly trained. I think the modern striker fired sub-compact semiauto is more demanding because of the manual of arms, safety, malfunction clearance. Then the difficulty carrying some of those polled "favorites" every single day.
Carry a K or L frame daily?

I'm not persuaded by what an essentially untrained (in the study of violent encounters real world) person enjoys shooting on the range.

This is the scenario in the context I'm referring to and this is where the small snubbie excels.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wB4mH5mLRA

[Screwball]

The 940 is/was a steel frame gun, not aluminum.

I’m aware… look at post 65.

[feudist]

I'm 180 out from your view that the J frame is for the extremely highly trained. I think the modern striker fired sub-compact semiauto is more demanding because of the manual of arms, safety, malfunction clearance. Then the difficulty carrying some of those polled "favorites" every single day.
Carry a K or L frame daily?

I'm not persuaded by what an essentially untrained (in the study of violent encounters real world) person enjoys shooting on the range.

This is the scenario in the context I'm referring to and this is where the small snubbie excels.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wB4mH5mLRA

Valid point.
As enthusiasts we forget that the overwhelming number of gun owners rarely if ever fire their guns more than a box of ammo.
That's where the grab and shoot reliability of a snub in Upside Down World conditions trumps shootability by a large margin. Realistically, not many people are going to clear a jam in time to affect the outcome of a felony assault.
Again, the training paradigm is so skewed by police(and now SOF) experience of gunfights that the situation faced by the vast majority of defenders gets short shrift.

[JHC]

Valid point.
As enthusiasts we forget that the overwhelming number of gun owners rarely if ever fire their guns more than a box of ammo.
That's where the grab and shoot reliability of a snub in Upside Down World conditions trumps shootability by a large margin. Realistically, not many people are going to clear a jam in time to affect the outcome of a felony assault.
Again, the training paradigm is so skewed by police(and now SOF) experience of gunfights that the situation faced by the vast majority of defenders gets short shrift.

Recent podcasts on P&S with Chuck Haggard and DB; and one recently including Claude Werner have really driven home that point.

I'm just spitballing but I really think most women who decide to carry a pistol are far more motivated by preventing being physically assaulted, maimed, raped or abducted than being robbed of their wallet/handbag. Their motivation is the up close fight. Strong hunch. Can't prove it.

[Clay]

Recent podcasts on P&S with Chuck Haggard and DB; and one recently including Claude Werner have really driven home that point.

I'm just spitballing but I really think most women who decide to carry a pistol are far more motivated by preventing being physically assaulted, maimed, raped or abducted than being robbed of their wallet/handbag. Their motivation is the up close fight. Strong hunch. Can't prove it.

I can say in my experience with helping women at the range where I worked, you are dead-on in your thinking. I loved helping women, because they were motivated and open open-minded to learning, and since they didn't have testicles, they weren't born experts at everything to do with firearms. Many women seem to have a much more practical view of violence than men.

[RevolverRob]

Many women seem to have a much more practical view of violence than men.

This is in no small part due to the fact that women are more often victims of violent assault, unwanted physical contact, and unwanted verbal aggression, than men are.

____

RE: Women and Revolvers

My mother, who stands 4'11" and weighs 115 pounds soaking wet, stole my favorite Colt D-Frame (3" Detective Special) as her night stand gun. And she stole my Airweight 642 to carry around. Loaded with light wadcutters she has no problem shooting both guns. She cannot, literally can not, work the slide on any semi-automatic pistol, that I would trust to function correctly. She struggles with the general manual of arms of a semi-automatic pistol overall.

However, push/pull the cylinder release, put bullets in the gun, close the gun, grab the fuck out of it, stroke the trigger until it stops going bang - is an easy set of skills for her to master. That she can use a weak hand thumb behind her strong hand thumb grip (see: Thumb Wrapped Revolver Grasp (https://revolverguy.com/revolver-grasp-techniques/)) helps immensely when it comes to holding onto the gun and shooting it for her. She has moderate arthritis in both hands and this allows her to grip the gun firmly for good hits.

These are techniques and skills that can make revolvers better than pistols for some people - not just women, but elderly/smaller/weaker individuals overall.

It's also the same things that JHC and Chuck Haggard have pointed out that make revolvers good "get off me tools" with compromised grips. Weaker/smaller people have compromised grips by default and you may have them in an entangled fight as well.

That said, the gun isn't the weapon in an entangled fight, your brain is, and you have to solve the problem first and get your tools second. As we have seen time and time and time again - those who can solve the entangled fight problem have plenty of time to execute immediate action drills to render a broken gun working, or pitch it and go to a secondary or tertiary weapon.

[john c]

Who did the conversion? Also, didn't S&W make a J-frame 9mm? I can't find it in current production anywhere.

ETA: I'm also looking at the 640 all-steel J frame in .357. I would have no intention of shooting .357 out of it, but I figure it would be more pleasant to shoot/practice with than the Airweight. The 642 is 14.4 oz while the 640 is 22.1 oz. I don't have anything to compare it too, so I'm not sure if that'd drag my shorts down or not.

I have a 640-1 that I use for practice. I carry a 642 no lock.

I tried shooting .357 mags out of it once. It’s not that bad, but definitely not fun.

95% of my snubby j frame shooting is through the heavier gun.

And yes, the all steel guns will definitely drag your shorts down. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jim Watson]

Although with DA/SA automatics instead of revolvers, I know two women who ran out of gas on the DA trigger.
What did they do?
They put both forefingers on the trigger and hauled away.

[SwampDweller]

Recent podcasts on P&S with Chuck Haggard and DB; and one recently including Claude Werner have really driven home that point.

Is that the one from August 11th or so? If so I'm listening to that one right now. Mr. Haggard's observations of reality and the lessons learned are a breath of fresh air compared to the nonsense I hear on a daily basis working at a gun counter.

[psalms144.1]

Although with DA/SA automatics instead of revolvers, I know two women who ran out of gas on the DA trigger.
What did they do?
They put both forefingers on the trigger and hauled away.I had several female agents who couldn't pull the DA trigger on our issued P228s, and at least one who couldn't pull the trigger on a DAK 60 times to get through a qualification. All of them would switch to both index fingers on the trigger to get things done...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Sample of one. My daughter in her late teens - having read that women have a hard time racking guns, I took a Glock 19 - checked a zillion times. I showed her how to rack it. She did it with ease and said : So what?

Now given that she did weight work, she had hand strength. She liked shooting the 19 and a Colt Detective Special. Didn't like shooting the 642. Nor do I that much. Going through a match with one with WWB 130 gr FMJ does sting a bit. Done that quite a few times.

[Blades]

P32 sights - https://innovativearms.com/portfolio/sight-upgrade/

Other option is find a Ruger LCP Custom. That one has similar sights and came factory direct.

I saw that but it's $185.00. I'm looking for a cheap fix. :) I had a regular LCP but sold it to get the smaller P-32.


The best current improvement on P-32 and P3AT sights is a Crimson Trace LaserGuard. The laser is useless outdoors during the day, but is game changing indoors any time and outdoors in reduced light. So, in the reduced light when the gun is most likely to be needed, it is most helpful.

Before these became available, a gunsmith named David Clay would mill a channel from the rear of the slide to a position just behind the ejection port. A tritium vial went on either side of the channel, and a third tritium vial went in the other end of the channel, just behind the ejection port. The result was a 3 dot sight picture with a reduced sight radius. He called it a tritium channel sight.

When David Clay modified my P-32, he also removed material from the left side of the slide where it supports the muzzle, and welded material to the right side. The result was to move the point of impact from about 5 inches right at 30 feet to horizontally centered at any reasonable distance.

Both my P-32 and P3AT function best with recoil springs 2 lb. heavier than factory standard. I use 11 lb. In my P-32 and 13 lb. In my P3AT.

The P-32 is absolutely the best available choice for someone who needs a truly tiny defensive gun with minimal recoil. Both this gun and the P3AT have been my choice at times when the gun absolutely, positively had to stay well hidden.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Crimson Trace is $240 on Amazon. I could almost buy another P-32. :)

[jandbj]

I saw that but it's $185.00. I'm looking for a cheap fix. :) I had a regular LCP but sold it to get the smaller P-32.



The Crimson Trace is $240 on Amazon. I could almost buy another P-32. :)

The juice is worth the squeeze for either. My LCP Custom has both and shoots like a laser. Found it gently loved on funbroker for under $400 complete. Just swapped the recoil springs to the heavier ones and all is sweetness and light.

[feudist]

I saw that but it's $185.00. I'm looking for a cheap fix. :) I had a regular LCP but sold it to get the smaller P-32.



The Crimson Trace is $240 on Amazon. I could almost buy another P-32. :)

I had excellent, reliable service from an Armalaser on my P32. They're a favorite on KTOG. I actually prefer the activation method to Crimson Trace's, which is fiddly for my grip.

Their green laser is 150.00.

[BillSWPA]

I saw that but it's $185.00. I'm looking for a cheap fix. :) I had a regular LCP but sold it to get the smaller P-32.



The Crimson Trace is $240 on Amazon. I could almost buy another P-32. :)

The Crimson Trace will facilitate shooting groups that you can cover with your fist at 60 feet in low light.

[Half Moon]

Sample of one. My daughter in her late teens - having read that women have a hard time racking guns, I took a Glock 19 - checked a zillion times. I showed her how to rack it. She did it with ease and said : So what?

Now given that she did weight work, she had hand strength. She liked shooting the 19 and a Colt Detective Special. Didn't like shooting the 642. Nor do I that much. Going through a match with one with WWB 130 gr FMJ does sting a bit. Done that quite a few times.

Well, yeah, my tiny, slip of a wisp, sister didn't have issues when I was teaching teenaged her to shoot whether semi or wheelgun.. She even had a strong preference for my Super Blackhawk. Her and your daugher though aren't the women I've seen struggle with a slide. It's the elderly folks and particularly women elders I've seen struggle.

[RevolverRob]

They put both forefingers on the trigger and hauled away.

Even easier with that thumb wrapped over the other thumb grip, because it puts the support hand index finger in the right spot to allow maximum leverage.

I've used that technique myself when attempting fast DA fire with an 1895 Nagant...:eek:

My wife and sister are both able to pick up and work pretty much any semi-auto. Mrs. likes the simplicity of safety-less striker 9mms. My sister borrows her husband's Beretta 92 and does fine with it. My sister also has two black belts in Taekwondo and Judo and has plenty of strength overall and is a good 5" taller than mom.

Again, I would say there are no absolutes. However, I would agree that strength challenged individuals are likely better served with a revolver. And given that you can pick up a 327 LCR, load it with Lapua Target Wadcutters to eliminate recoil, equip it with a large orange dot front sight, and it has an excellent trigger (better than most other revolvers). That seems like an 'easy button' for many...

[PNWTO]

The Crimson Trace will facilitate shooting groups that you can cover with your fist at 60 feet in low light.

Will the P32+laser fit into most soft pocket holsters (ie Mika) or is there a better solution?

[BillSWPA]

Will the P32+laser fit into most soft pocket holsters (ie Mika) or is there a better solution?

Pocket holsters which are made specifically for the P-32 and P3AT with a Crimson Trace laser are easy to find. My most recent purchase was from Tuff Products. DeSantis and Galco also make pocket holsters for this combination. The DeSantis SuperFly is one of the better pocket holsters I have used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duelist]

I saw that but it's $185.00. I'm looking for a cheap fix. :) I had a regular LCP but sold it to get the smaller P-32.



The Crimson Trace is $240 on Amazon. I could almost buy another P-32. :)

When I bought my used P32, it was $100. I couldn’t not buy it.

[BN]

I'd recommend 3 P&S episodes.
Snubbies
The applicability of small caliber pistols
Optimal is not universal.

Those have DB, Claude and Rhett discussing the mission and threat profile of snubs and mice guns.


They talk about "get out of trouble" guns.

My choice for "get out of trouble" pocket carry has become the S&W 43c with Crimson Trace 405 grips. It's easy to carry with my old crippled back and I can practice a lot for not much money. I just ordered 1000 rounds of Punch for around $200. For the same $200 I can only get 200 rounds of Federal 148 grain wad cutters.

I carry the 43c in an AHolster pocket holster with an 8 round Speed Beez speed loader in one pocket and a 10 round speed strip in another. I recently checked POA/POI with the factory sights as well as with the laser from 3 yards out to 25 yards. All down zero hits on an IDPA target. 32 rounds total. I've also gotten semi decent hits out to 40 yards. There is no way I could have as easily done that with a 38.

I usually keep a brush to clean out the chambers frequently while practicing. I can easily shoot the original 8 rounds plus another 8 in the speed loader with no problems. That's probably enough to get me out of trouble.

[Clusterfrack]

I have an LCR9 in my pocket now, thanks to this thread. I figured I'd give it another try. The shorts I'm wearing have pockets that are a perfect fit for the snubby.

[jandbj]

They talk about "get out of trouble" guns.

My choice for "get out of trouble" pocket carry has become the S&W 43c with Crimson Trace 405 grips. It's easy to carry with my old crippled back and I can practice a lot for not much money. I just ordered 1000 rounds of Punch for around $200. For the same $200 I can only get 200 rounds of Federal 148 grain wad cutters.

I carry the 43c in an AHolster pocket holster with an 8 round Speed Beez speed loader in one pocket and a 10 round speed strip in another. I recently checked POA/POI with the factory sights as well as with the laser from 3 yards out to 25 yards. All down zero hits on an IDPA target. 32 rounds total. I've also gotten semi decent hits out to 40 yards. There is no way I could have as easily done that with a 38.

I usually keep a brush to clean out the chambers frequently while practicing. I can easily shoot the original 8 rounds plus another 8 in the speed loader with no problems. That's probably enough to get me out of trouble.

I sometimes run a similar rig: 43c, CTC105 grips, and a pair of those 10 round speed strips with 6 rounds in each. I learned my snubby reloads from Michael deBethencourt and loading 2 rounds at a time from them works great!

I keep my speedbeez set up with loader and loading block for range days.

[Edster]

They talk about "get out of trouble" guns.

My choice for "get out of trouble" pocket carry has become the S&W 43c with Crimson Trace 405 grips. It's easy to carry with my old crippled back and I can practice a lot for not much money. I just ordered 1000 rounds of Punch for around $200. For the same $200 I can only get 200 rounds of Federal 148 grain wad cutters.

I carry the 43c in an AHolster pocket holster with an 8 round Speed Beez speed loader in one pocket and a 10 round speed strip in another. I recently checked POA/POI with the factory sights as well as with the laser from 3 yards out to 25 yards. All down zero hits on an IDPA target. 32 rounds total. I've also gotten semi decent hits out to 40 yards. There is no way I could have as easily done that with a 38.

I usually keep a brush to clean out the chambers frequently while practicing. I can easily shoot the original 8 rounds plus another 8 in the speed loader with no problems. That's probably enough to get me out of trouble.

This is an interesting concept. I think it's fair to say the snubby revolver excels at the arms-reach-or-less "get off me" desperation role.

If that's the intended use, the performance of each round may not matter as much as the ability to say "get off me" repeatedly. The goal is just to break contact and create distance in order to avoid grave injury or death. Maybe it's a discreet second gun carried somewhere easily accessed.

I'll give this some thought.

[RevolverRob]

I have an LCR9 in my pocket now, thanks to this thread. I figured I'd give it another try. The shorts I'm wearing have pockets that are a perfect fit for the snubby.

Snubs are sort of like herpes. Once you get them, they never go away. You might have a period of time without them...but they always come back...

ETA: Anyone running a .22 Snub, I encourage folks to try out some match grade ammo from Lapua, SK, Eley, or RWS. Far more consistent rim thickness in Olympic Match grade ammo. You can consistently get Match ammo from Champion's Choice or Graf's.

[FNFAN]

A S&W 642 replaced my model 38 that had been with me a couple of decades. The Aholster is a significant upgrade to the olde nameless leather item that I carried the 38 in. It's on me anytime the work gun isn't. The only variation to that would be for long trips where the X9s rides in a Exodus holster that was made for my PPS.

[SwampDweller]

I ordered a 642 no-lock after input from this thread, its SME's such as Mr. Haggard, and my own assessments of my personal needs, that have lead me to this conclusion. When I don't feel like strapping on a Glock/Beretta/H&K, I'll simply put my 642 loaded with Federal 148gr wadcutters in a pocket holster in the pocket of my non-belt shorts. I've got some Federal American Eagle 158gr LRN to practice with and will report back with my results. Mostly, this is something I will own to take my dog for a walk out at night in my shorts or going to check the mail. I'll plan to carry it in my right pocket as a complement to my auto in all other situations as well.

[42Willys]

Thanks PF, what a great thread full of good advice from both sides.

I come down on the J Frame/small revolver side. Mainly because low drama and high safety factor with long DA trigger. Ability to carry in pants pocket, jacket pocket, appendix, and belt. And, can’t help but get a workable grip on the gun on the draw from any carry position.

[Clusterfrack]

Snubs are sort of like herpes. Once you get them, they never go away. You might have a period of time without them...but they always come back...


Yuckkkk! You're a terrible snubby salesman. I'm not keister carrying after all.

I have my p380 in the pocket now, and it's way better for comfort and concealment. Tradeoffs...

[RevolverRob]

Yuckkkk! You're a terrible snubby salesman. I'm not keister carrying after all.

I have my p380 in the pocket now, and it's way better for comfort and concealment. Tradeoffs...

Just embrace it and get a prescription...it'll help.

[awp_101]

They talk about "get out of trouble" guns.

My choice for "get out of trouble" pocket carry has become the S&W 43c with Crimson Trace 405 grips.


This is an interesting concept. I think it's fair to say the snubby revolver excels at the arms-reach-or-less "get off me" desperation role.

The goal is just to break contact and create distance in order to avoid grave injury or death.
Over the past few months the P&S guys have sold me on the merits of the “get out of trouble” gun.

Is there anything to suggest a .22 Magnum snub is any better or worse than LR? I’m thinking along the lines of the idea that a .357 snub is a .38+P attached to a flash-bang.

I know the muzzle blast of the 4” or 4.5” Automag II I had for a short while a long time ago was…impressive.

[wmu12071]

Over the past few months the P&S guys have sold me on the merits of the “get out of trouble” gun.

Is there anything to suggest a .22 Magnum snub is any better or worse than LR? I’m thinking along the lines of the idea that a .357 snub is a .38+P attached to a flash-bang.

I know the muzzle blast of the 4” or 4.5” Automag II I had for a short while a long time ago was…impressive.

I would be way out of my lane to talk ballistics but something well within my lane is being cheap... 22LR is extremely cheap and plentiful. I have a 43c set up that I shoot for poops and a chuckle a lot because it is cheap to shoot and fun. Depending on how much you shoot you can pay for a 22LR to play with from the cost difference in shooting.

[feudist]

Over the past few months the P&S guys have sold me on the merits of the “get out of trouble” gun.

Is there anything to suggest a .22 Magnum snub is any better or worse than LR? I’m thinking along the lines of the idea that a .357 snub is a .38+P attached to a flash-bang.

I know the muzzle blast of the 4” or 4.5” Automag II I had for a short while a long time ago was…impressive.

WMR seems to get a couple more inches of penetration with at least the potential for bullet upset(for some tissue cutting) vs Long Rifle out of equally short barrels.

This is all in Clear Ballistics gel, though.

The extra flash and bang and peppering with unspent powder might add to the FIBSA!(Fuck I'm being Shot at!)effect.

The ammo is about thrice what LR is or roughly what bulk 9mm goes for.

I'm considering an LCR in this caliber myself due to arthritis hand pain and the utter lack of desire to reload.

[awp_101]

I would be way out of my lane to talk ballistics but something well within my lane is being cheap... 22LR is extremely cheap and plentiful. I have a 43c set up that I shoot for poops and a chuckle a lot because it is cheap to shoot and fun. Depending on how much you shoot you can pay for a 22LR to play with from the cost difference in shooting.


WMR seems to get a couple more inches of penetration with at least the potential for bullet upset(for some tissue cutting) vs Long Rifle out of equally short barrels.

This is all in Clear Ballistics gel, though.

The extra flash and bang and peppering with unspent powder might add to the FIBSA!(Fuck I'm being Shot at!)effect.

The ammo is about thrice what LR is or roughly what bulk 9mm goes for.

I'm considering an LCR in this caliber myself due to arthritis hand pain and the utter lack of desire to reload.
I'm familiar with the cost difference between LR and Mag. It's one one reason my cheap ass frugal self has a passel of LR pistols and revolvers and zero .22 Mags. To me that sounds like a good reason to have a LR for training and a Mag to carry.

Not sure I can pocket an LCR unless the .22s are smaller than the .38s...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

i do recommend that all the snubby users run one in a competition. Claude does that successfully. It is really a good evaluation of usage. Now you do have to hang about six speed loaders on your belt but that's OK. Try to focus on good double taps. Also, IMHO, ditch planning reloads - that's gamer and not relevant for snubby usage. Shoot till empty and reload. IDPA is more bug friendly than USPSA. Before I left TX, I shot an IDPA match with two guns, my 642 and 632. My goal was to hit the targets wells, reload without fumbles. It was fun and impressed some of the fancy pants gun users (LOL).

When I shot the 642 in USPSA here - our carry gun mini match - folks said - OH, you should modify the gun for speed loaders, blah, blah. Since when I carried it, it was loaded and a couple of speed strips, I said I would pass. I shot it for practice as compared to a 'win'.

You hand might ache a bit depending on loads. I shot a lot of WWB 130 gr FMJ and that was a bit of a sore hand. I did also shoot some cream puff reloads that I got but decided to stick with reality most of the time. I did shoot SW 32 Long though mixed with full bore 327 mags or 32 HR mags.

[wmu12071]

I'm familiar with the cost difference between LR and Mag. It's one one reason my cheap ass frugal self has a passel of LR pistols and revolvers and zero .22 Mags. To me that sounds like a good reason to have a LR for training and a Mag to carry.

Not sure I can pocket an LCR unless the .22s are smaller than the .38s...

I believe 22s and 38s are all the same size. Maybe a bit less weight. LCRs are ever so slightly larger then j-frames. I would be interested in a DA version of a NAA revolver if you could build such a thing.

[Wonder9]

I must be turning into a boomer.

I got this over another Glock (Peace be upon Gaston), and watched The Weather Channel before my day trip today.

94185

[blues]

Welcome to the club. (Initiation is a bitch, but it beats the alternative.)

:cool:

[Cecil Burch]

I'm just spitballing but I really think most women who decide to carry a pistol are far more motivated by preventing being physically assaulted, maimed, raped or abducted than being robbed of their wallet/handbag. Their motivation is the up close fight. Strong hunch. Can't prove it.


I agree with you here.

I get this from two different angles - 1) the gun-centric person - the kind of woman who either would already be involved a bit in the shooting world with the various female groups like Shoot Like A Girl , and who probably never did much physical sports activity or 2) the non gun involved female who joins a BJJ or Krav gym. Having a foot in each of those worlds means I see a lot of different women looking to protect themselves, and I would take an educated guess that I see more than someone with both feet in a single lane. Very few women I have seen give a crap about saving their purse. They all are worried to some level about personal harm.

One other aspect to this type of discussion when it pertains to women and loading them up with revolvers that has gotten lost is how much it sucks to shoot normal to +p 38sp loads in air weight snubs. I don’t care how good a shooter you are or how tough, or whether we are talking female OR male, running those loads through an air weight for a 50-100 round practice session is the opposite of enjoyable. And if you dread shooting a practice session like that, you are far more likely to not do it, and that dread will even carry over to just shooting a cylinder full in an actual defensive situation. So it’s no wonder that - paraphrasing the earlier comments about women not preferring snubs - a not super experienced shooter will prefer something more enjoyable, and hence the appeal of a 365 or G43.

Perhaps if instead of shooting 135 gr +p HPs in a 642 and getting scarred for life, that woman would shoot an LCR in 22lr. Maybe they would enjoy it so much (because it is not destroying their hands) that they would want to shoot and practice nore, which would make them more effective, and having no mental barrier to shooting means that not only do they not dread the wheel gun but like it, and they can focus 100% on solving the defensive problem.

Just a thought.

[Navin Johnson]

Watching this thread loosely. Adding to the above excellent post

When women hate to shoot a jay frame what are they shooting through it?

Sorry but the 22 is a 22 good luck ….. talk about a race to the bottom ……It is notably better than harsh language and I have a cousin who carries one.

And people wanting high velocity wadcutters defeats the purpose of a wad cutter.

At 642 with good stocks on it and gold medal match is quite shootable for almost anyone.

Perhaps a steel gun to practice with

The trigger on the 22 J frames I believe is quite a bit heavier.

Women also don’t have the 70 round shoot out fantasy that they believe they need a G34 and four magazines to deal with

A J frame may be a professional’s gun but a subcompact semi automatic is certainly not a beginners gun

YMMV

[BillSWPA]

AsI posted above, the single biggest mistake I ever made in teaching my wife to shoot was letting her try a lightweight J frame. This was not with +P ammo, but with standard pressure practice ammo. It took me years to correct the resulting flinch.

If something cannot be made to work on a range under zero pressure, then there is no self defense situation in which it can be made to work.

I completely understand the advantages of a revolver up close, such as in a car. However, in such a situation, other skills will be far more critical than the type of gun. Again, if it doesn’t work for that shooter on a range, it will not work when pressure is added.

There are some women who prefer a J frame. However, this is not a choice that should be made without trying such a gun first, and should certainly not be the default recommendation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JHC]

I agree with you here.

I get this from two different angles - 1) the gun-centric person - the kind of woman who either would already be involved a bit in the shooting world with the various female groups like Shoot Like A Girl , and who probably never did much physical sports activity or 2) the non gun involved female who joins a BJJ or Krav gym. Having a foot in each of those worlds means I see a lot of different women looking to protect themselves, and I would take an educated guess that I see more than someone with both feet in a single lane. Very few women I have seen give a crap about saving their purse. They all are worried to some level about personal harm.

One other aspect to this type of discussion when it pertains to women and loading them up with revolvers that has gotten lost is how much it sucks to shoot normal to +p 38sp loads in air weight snubs. I don’t care how good a shooter you are or how tough, or whether we are talking female OR male, running those loads through an air weight for a 50-100 round practice session is the opposite of enjoyable. And if you dread shooting a practice session like that, you are far more likely to not do it, and that dread will even carry over to just shooting a cylinder full in an actual defensive situation. So it’s no wonder that - paraphrasing the earlier comments about women not preferring snubs - a not super experienced shooter will prefer something more enjoyable, and hence the appeal of a 365 or G43.

Perhaps if instead of shooting 135 gr +p HPs in a 642 and getting scarred for life, that woman would shoot an LCR in 22lr. Maybe they would enjoy it so much (because it is not destroying their hands) that they would want to shoot and practice nore, which would make them more effective, and having no mental barrier to shooting means that not only do they not dread the wheel gun but like it, and they can focus 100% on solving the defensive problem.

Just a thought.

+1 A-Z

I think I will take a shot at a sacred cow here. Although this is a site dedicated to training the pistol like it was our job . . .

For the 0-5 yard personal fight, one doesn't need very much live fire to make hits. Jeff Cooper observed this in the context of the Model 60 for this use case. His words to the effect "it's not much about marksmanship but availability and willingness. I think "availability" is not just about having it on one's person in a condition to be accessed but all the factors to involved in bringing it to bear in the entangled fight.

I've only seen a few non-enthusiast females pursue a defensive pistol. They did try out steel and alum frame J frames with standard pressure .38 ammo. None of them liked it. None of them feared it afterwards. But one aforementioned went to a keltec .32. IMO it was a pure talisman move based on the expressed mind set and the Keltec price.

The other 3 all prefer the J frame to all the other stuff they've sampled - G42, G43, G19, G17, 1911s in .45 and 9mm. They see their close range hits with small amounts of live fire conducted infrequently, compare the manual of arms for carrying in a ready to go condition and they just intuit a similar conclusion as has been explained by Demonstrated Concepts, DB, Claude Werner and other folks with similar experience.

D-con vid for general reference.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ3ZPmxcR5c

[JHC]

I'm familiar with the cost difference between LR and Mag. It's one one reason my cheap ass frugal self has a passel of LR pistols and revolvers and zero .22 Mags. To me that sounds like a good reason to have a LR for training and a Mag to carry.

Not sure I can pocket an LCR unless the .22s are smaller than the .38s...

FWIW and your mileage may vary - but I've been shooting rimfire j-frames (not exclusively, just 50-100 rds) every week for some months now and here's what I've seen from my 317 (3" barrel) and 43C in .22LR and my 351C .22 mag. Out to 7 yards or so the hits and speeds are pretty close. From 10 to 25 yards the .22 LR guns stretch out a fair lead over the 351C - surely because the Long Rifle gun triggers are not that much heavier than my centerfire J frames whereas the 351C trigger is substantially heavier (I still love it). Because I'm obsessive about stupid low probability capability that makes me like the Long Rifles a bit more. All the more silly because these are rarely my primary when away from home (G43, 26, 19).

My use case for them is as an always on me gun while I WFH, out in the yard, during some types of exercise in certain venues, etc.

[Mister X]

Mas Ayoob penned an article years ago titled “The real ladies handgun”, which really reflects the viewpoint of the vast majority of women in my life.

They’ll get their permit, but that’s about it. Revolvers are preferred. Especially enclosed hammer snubs. About the only practice they will do is at most running a couple of cylinders through the gun once in a blue moon. I can get my wife to engage in some additional dry-fire at home and some bare minimum H2H skills, but that’s about it. Wife, mother, sisters have absolutely no interest in becoming proficient with autoloaders. An NRA instructor tried pushing my elderly mother toward a Glock 26, which made little sense to her or me considering she could rack it, nor even remember or care to learn how to operate it safely.

Talk of taking down active-shooters and across the street shoot-goes in one ear and out the other(it pretty much does with me as well), as they are pretty much only worried about relatively common extreme close-quarter threats and I don’t think they are wrong. At home, hiding in locked walk-in closets, behind locked bedroom doors is the plan, especially if I’m not home. Maximum shot range is about 3-5 feet max, so I don’t really see where any additional shoot-ability factors in much. Plus I like the inherent ECQ advantages a snub revolvers offers should someone actually get through the layers of security before help arrives.

A few years back some guy started banging on the side of our house. I grabbed a Glock 19 and handed my wife a model 3” model 60, which she was pretty familiar with and reasonable proficient at using, but she was really spooked and kept wanting to preemptively cock it, despite having previous discussions on why that’s really a bad idea. I traded it in the next day for a 640.

Not necessarily ideal for all possible scenarios, but to me, a hammerless snub makes a lot of sense, for a lot of people, in a lot of different situations.

[JAH 3rd]

I carry a S&W 340PD in an Uncle Mike's size 3 pocket holster. Never had a problem of any kind with that holster. It stays in the pocket when I draw the revolver.

And yeah, like many of you, I've been asked, "What should I conceal carry now that I've gotten my CCW permit?" The ultimate answer is based on the experience of the individual. We've seen people who buy a handgun and a 50 round box of ammo and are set for life. Others may be life-long shooters, but never considered concealed carry until now.

There no magical formula that quickly leads to the perfect CCW handgun. It's a matter of trying various handgun platforms and see what works. What works is putting holes where you want them....on a paper target of course. Practice and hone one's skills. Be confident in yourself, handgun/ammo, and related equipment for concealed carry. Hits on the target is what we are after. I'll take hits with a .22 anytime over misses with any other caliber. While a .22 is not ideal, I certainly don't want one of those bouncing around in me!

[Half Moon]

Sample of one: exact quote from my wife - "revolvers are stupid". As a mostly revolver guy, not sure how this reflects on me 😉

[blues]

Sample of one: exact quote from my wife - "revolvers are stupid". As a mostly revolver guy, not sure how this reflects on me 😉

On the bright side, being "Half Moon", it only makes you half-assed. Imagine if you had been "Full Moon"...

;)


(Nobody said there'd be math fractions.)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I agree with what most are saying about women and guns. A few thoughts. Most males don't train or compete, show given pretty well known difference views in the sexes tendency towards physical aggression (debatable and certainly there are physically aggressive females) it makes sense that they would be less likely train up or compete.

Most competition venues are not in scenarios which seem practical to female self-defense. Folks can figure that out without a DA STREETZ discussion. Having 22s and 32s might help - power factors would seem like nonsense to the self-defense oriented shooter. 18 to 32 round runs, in a track meet - same thing. The male culture might be a touch off. Many competition venues don't have a decent restroom. That's a big thing. Not that I'm saying anything new, the industry literature has said this for quite a bit of time. For our outdoor matches you would have to take a hike to a vile port-a-potty.

I've heard from female trainers that many women come to SD shooting from trauma and don't need males blathering to them about this or that. They find it offensive.

As an aside. We were watching Dr. Pol. Pol has been a gun person in the past. In an early season, his family were on their porch blazing away with all kinds of guns - long arms, semis and even IIRC his wife with a J frame. Not so much now - PC rules.

However, on this episode they were going into the personal life of Dr. Nicole. She has three dogs and named them: Remington, Kimber and Ruger. I say to my wife that's gun person - she says why - I say those are gun names. She says I know Ruger - and Remington. I say - you don't name a dog Kimber for a rather obscure gun company if you aren't in the know.

[Ed L]

I would NOT fire +P loads out of a lighter weight versions of a J-frame. I would use standard velocity wadcutters. +P loads have too much recoil when fired from a lightweight or airweight gun. +P loads should be reserved for full weight J frames like S&W 638, 640, and 640 Pro, etc.

I also would not use a .22 unless that was all that the shooter could handle.

Here is a comparison photo of a .38 wadcutter next to a .22.

94243

The .38 wadcutter bullet weighs 3.5-5 times the weight of a .22 round--depending on the particular .22 round. The .38 wadcutter has 2.579 times the surface area of the .22 round--probably more because the wadcutter has a full surface whereas the .22 round does not. The .38 wadcutter will penetrate better and more reliably that a .22 round in the body of an actual human attacker--especially through bones and other obstructions. The .38 will make a larger permanent cavity while doing so. This is especially the case with a .38 wadcutter.

People talk about a "get-off-me" gun.

I am not just trying to scare them away to get them off me; I am trying to inflict as much damage as possible to make it harder for them to continue the attack. A .38 wadcutter inlicts significantly more damage than a .22 longrifle.

[BN]

Over the past few months the P&S guys have sold me on the merits of the “get out of trouble” gun.

Is there anything to suggest a .22 Magnum snub is any better or worse than LR? I’m thinking along the lines of the idea that a .357 snub is a .38+P attached to a flash-bang.

I know the muzzle blast of the 4” or 4.5” Automag II I had for a short while a long time ago was…impressive.

My ears are bad enough now without any "Flash Bangs". ;)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've mentioned that a 22 Mag out of a NAA mini with a 1 5/8 barrel between two partitions of an indoor lane scared the crap out of me. I though I blew up. My eyes slammed shut and I felt a air pressure wave under my shooting glasses. BLAM! It was like that cricket gun in Men in Black!

[awp_101]

My ears are bad enough now without any "Flash Bangs". ;)

I'm sorry, can you type louder?


https://youtu.be/CWWDKZ-kydE

[Spartan1980]

I've mentioned that a 22 Mag out of a NAA mini with a 1 5/8 barrel between two partitions of an indoor lane scared the crap out of me. I though I blew up. My eyes slammed shut and I felt a air pressure wave under my shooting glasses. BLAM! It was like that cricket gun in Men in Black!

I've got one of those in the safe. It was my step father's gun and was in his pocket almost constantly. I find them basically silly little talismans and I'll probably never shoot it.

[Joe in PNG]

I thought the NAA was the coolest thing ever, until I finally shot one.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

They are what they are. A last ditch BUG or lazy going to the mail box gun in a probability safe area. On DA STREETZ, in Florida (probably mentioned this before) two old geezers in a restaurant took on a robber with a shotgun with a NAA and a Derringer in 22 mag. Put some rounds in him and he fled. Got the reference somewhere.

One cannot forget, recently, the old geezer waving a PUG at a BLM demonstration sporting ARs. Some internet folks clam that he scared them away but their leaders just talked them to pass him by. One AR guy was racking a round, so if PUG opened up, he was toast. However, his sensible woman companion dragged his warrior butt inside.

Then there was the LEO killed by one while his opponent absorbed 357 magnums into his fat. Well known as I'm sure someone can reference it.

You can hit stuff in the 3 to 7 yard range pretty reliably. Now with a NAA 22S - you can't hit anything at a distance or I can't. I bought it just because, just as I want the Iver Johnson vaporware Sharps replica.

The NAAs keyhole all the time. Never be a primary EDC for me.

[Joe in PNG]

They are what they are. A last ditch BUG or lazy going to the mail box gun in a probability safe area. On DA STREETZ, in Florida (probably mentioned this before) two old geezers in a restaurant took on a robber with a shotgun with a NAA and a Derringer in 22 mag. Put some rounds in him and he fled. Got the reference somewhere.
One cannot forget, recently, the old geezer waving a PUG at a BLM demonstration sporting ARs. Some internet folks clam that he scared them away but their leaders just talked them to pass him by. One AR guy was racking a round, so if PUG opened up, he was toast. However, his sensible woman companion dragged his warrior butt inside.
Then there was the LEO killed by one while his opponent absorbed 357 magnums into his fat. Well known as I'm sure someone can reference it.
You can hit stuff in the 3 to 7 yard range pretty reliably. Now with a NAA 22S - you can't hit anything at a distance or I can't. I bought it just because, just as I want the Iver Johnson vaporware Sharps replica.
The NAAs keyhole all the time. Never be a primary EDC for me.

The NAA is better than nothing, but so's my FN 1906 in .25acp or a Baby Browning. And those are just as easy to tote while being a lot easier to shoot.

Then again, I could get a LCP or S&W Bodyguard .380 in roughly the same size envelope...

[BillSWPA]

The NAA revolvers made a lot more sense before good, tiny .32 pistols became widely available. At least the 1 1/8 inch .22 lr. is smaller than any semiauto, and significantly smaller than some pocket .22 or .25 guns.

They are reliable, unlike some of these tiny semiautos.

They can be carried safely with the hammer lowered into a notch in the cylinder between chambers. Some tiny single action semiautos might not have the same level of safety.

They have surprisingly high intrinsic accuracy, although converting that to practical accuracy is not easy. The boot grips or slip on rubber grip go a long way towards preventing recoil from compromising accuracy.

They still make some sense if one needs the absolute smallest, lightest gun available.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CraigS]

If one is confident that 6 rnds are all that will be needed a revolver may be fine. If you think more than 6 might be a good idea go to an idpa match and watch the revolver shooters reload. W/ the special carriers and the gun setup to use moon clips or other reload devices the guys who shoot them a lot can be kind of OK on a reload. But carrying ammo that way in normal life pales in comparison to a spare semi auto mag.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You are correct. J frames are one or two (at best) opponent guns. When I shoot a revolver at a match, I use HKS speed loaders as that might be in a jacket pocket. I don't modify my guns for moon clips, etc. I'm just getting some practice shooting at targets with what I carry and moving around some. The game score means nothing. Accuracy does though.

Js are for defined circumstance. A belt semi and an extra mag is the reasonable real world carry if you move away from the one mugger at the gas pump. The folks as in the Hackthorn, Wilson possibility vs. probability video have an incredibly unsophisticated view of risk analysis for everyday life.

[Mike Pipes]

I will post pictures when I get home . I have a pair of Rohrbaugh's , 9mm, set up for pocket carry. Pretty slick little guns. I DO NOT carry them in my pockets because housekeeping is not my thing. Pocket lint and general dirt covers the 640s I carry daily and they WORK every time!.......................CYA Mike

[JHC]

You are correct. J frames are one or two (at best) opponent guns. When I shoot a revolver at a match, I use HKS speed loaders as that might be in a jacket pocket. I don't modify my guns for moon clips, etc. I'm just getting some practice shooting at targets with what I carry and moving around some. The game score means nothing. Accuracy does though.

Js are for defined circumstance. A belt semi and an extra mag is the reasonable real world carry if you move away from the one mugger at the gas pump. The folks as in the Hackthorn, Wilson possibility vs. probability video have an incredibly unsophisticated view of risk analysis for everyday life.

Hack isn't that big of a J frame fan. He gives me the impression they were useful to him when he carried one as a back up but not as a primary. Just for the record. ;)

[oldtexan]

......The folks as in the Hackthorn, Wilson possibility vs. probability video have an incredibly unsophisticated view of risk analysis for everyday life.

Mr. Meyer, I've watched most or all the Hack/Bill Wilson Gun Guy videos but couldn't figure out which one you were referencing here. And what is the "unsophisticated view of risk analysis for everyday life" you refer to above? Thanks in advance.

[Tannhauser]

Short answer to be followed up on;

Nothing has drawn as clean from a pocket for me as a internal hammer snub such as the 642 or LCR.

Most of the small semi autos I've tried were nowhere near as reliable as my snubs. I am not the only person to observe this.

One reason many people don't is that they do not commonly draw their carry gun and shoot it in the manner that they were carrying it, ie without unloading the carry ammo and reloading the gun with ball ammo. Fired as they have been carried I note many semi autos have a "one round and a stovepipe" habit.

Chuck Haggard do you think this stovepipe when "fired as carried" is due to poor performance of carry vs. ball ammo, poor firing grip when drawing from a holster or some combination of both?

I'm curious to see if there's a hole in my pocket carry testing and training I need to fill.

[Chuck Haggard]

Chuck Haggard do you think this stovepipe when "fired as carried" is due to poor performance of carry vs. ball ammo, poor firing grip when drawing from a holster or some combination of both?

I'm curious to see if there's a hole in my pocket carry testing and training I need to fill.

It appears to be an artifact of the gun not being manipulated or lubed for a period of time. One of my friends noted that if he went more than two weeks without getting rid of the pocket dsut and lubing the gun that he'd regularly get the one round and a stove pipe effect

[UNK]

I carry a mid or full size pistol every day IWB. However, sometimes when taking the dog out at night I wish I had something I could just throw in a pocket holster in my stretchy shorts (no belt) and head out, or take out the trash, get mail, etc...
While my next purchase will be primarily for that purpose, I'd also like for it to double as a BUG to my primary. I used to carry a G26 in the pocket, but the weight of it loaded is more of an issue than the size (though granted, it is chunky).

I always had a S&W 642 Airweight fingered as what I'd go with, primarily going off of DocGKR 's BUG article, but this isn't just a BUG. It will also be primary for short periods in the scenarios listed above, and perhaps NPEs. I know this is the Semi-Auto forum, but being as it's this or a revolver, for my intended purpose, I figured it'd be okay.

Seems like most these days gravitate toward pistols like the P365, Hellcat, G43, and other so-called micro-9's with higher capacities than seen in previous years. After getting burned by Sig pistols several times over a period of 12 years, I'm hesitant to trust a P365. Also have been less than impressed with HS Produkt pistols, although the Hellcat does shoot very well.

Are we in an era of micro 9s where it makes more sense to go with one of those for pocket carry instead of the old standby: the J frame .38? Previously tiny pistols have had a reputation for spotty reliability, or anemic power. Now we have an array of quite capable 10+ round micro 9mm's in a size unimaginable just a decade ago. Just looking to get thoughts and how many of you have tackled this niche of a pocket pistol that needs to be light enough for no-belt pocket carry.

Id get a fanny pack and carry a capable gun. I just bought the Hill people gear Snubby medium, it would easily hold a Glock 19, and Im waiting for the small to get back in stock. On top of a gun theres plenty of room in the medium for a phone pepper spray and a flashlight.

[Hambo]

I had a 940 and it wasn’t much fun to shoot. I can’t imagine that an airweight 9mm would be pleasant.

Me too. I also had some issues with ejecting cases and moon clips (can't recall the ammo now). I'll stick with .38s.

[Mike Pipes]

94297

Learned not to carry these because of pocket fuzz and lint. Rohrbaugh 9mm.

94298

Carry these everyday. S&W 340PDs

[Leroy Suggs]

Id get a fanny pack and carry a capable gun. I just bought the Hill people gear Snubby medium, it would easily hold a Glock 19, and Im waiting for the small to get back in stock. On top of a gun theres plenty of room in the medium for a phone pepper spray and a flashlight.

Here is a capable gun (G26) in a fanny pack.
Works well to just throw it on wearing just about anything. Belt or no belt.

94299

94300

[SwampDweller]

It appears to be an artifact of the gun not being manipulated or lubed for a period of time. One of my friends noted that if he went more than two weeks without getting rid of the pocket dsut and lubing the gun that he'd regularly get the one round and a stove pipe effect

Can -- or do -- malfunctions happen to revolvers that are carried for long periods of time without being manipulated/cleaned/lubed? For instance, a J frame in a pocket holster for months where pocket lint is even more prevalent than IWB carry.

[Jason M]

I wipe out my 442 every Sunday with Sentry products “Marine Tuiff Glide” to prevent rust and keep the dust/lint balls away. One spray bottle has lasted for a very long time.

https://sentrytactical.com/sentry-solutions-marine-tuf-glide-4oz-pump-spray-bottle/

[SwampDweller]

I wipe out my 442 every Sunday with Sentry products “Marine Tuiff Glide” to prevent rust and keep the dust/lint balls away. One spray bottle has lasted for a very long time.

https://sentrytactical.com/sentry-solutions-marine-tuf-glide-4oz-pump-spray-bottle/

How deep do you go with wiping it out? Do you remove the sideplate or anything?

I've got a 642 on the way

[Jason M]

Exterior, cylinder/chambers, barrel.

[BillSWPA]

When a revolver malfunctions, it is usually something breaking, and not something that will be remedied by anything less than a trip to a gunsmith or back to the factory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[titsonritz]

When a revolver malfunctions, it is usually something breaking, and not something that will be remedied by anything less than a trip to a gunsmith or back to the factory.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

An empty piece of brass caught under the extractor will gum up the works.

[Joe in PNG]

An empty piece of brass caught under the extractor will gum up the works.

There's also extractor rods walking loose*, and the ever popular ballistic bullet pull, where a bullet jumps the crimp and jams things up good and hard. Usually because the shooter didn't read the recommendations in the manual.


*A friend had a Model 10 with this exact problem.

[Hambo]

How deep do you go with wiping it out? Do you remove the sideplate or anything?

I've got a 642 on the way

Removing the sideplate is not something that needs to be done on a 642 unless you're doing work to internals. The screws are specific to their location, not mix and match. Internals do not require much lube.

Revolvers are more like mechanical watches than semiauto pistols.

[SwampDweller]

Removing the sideplate is not something that needs to be done on a 642 unless you're doing work to internals. The screws are specific to their location, not mix and match. Internals do not require much lube.

Revolvers are more like mechanical watches than semiauto pistols.

Good to know, especially about the screws. I just wonder if/how pocket lint or other debris could find its way into the internals

[Totem Polar]

Fired as they have been carried I note many semi autos have a "one round and a stovepipe" habit.

Not that a guy like you needs any backup on this topic from me, but that’s also been my experience with the *rather extensive* list of pocket pistols that I’ve owned over the years.

This is most def a thing, including guns as large as a Sig P232 .380–which was disconcerting to discover at the range just a few days after I thought I might be reaching for it in the field one Idaho afternoon on a hike. That gun was stone reliable for “range duty,” otherwise.

The only “pocket” autos that I’ve personally owned that seemed immune to this phenomenon were a Sig P238 (which had other challenges, but was generally reliable, even after weeks of loafing around in an RKBA pocket holster) and my recent manufacture G42, which runs like a Glock, and has been my companion on NPE-free days of late. I feel comfortable treating that one like a sock-drawer revolver, but not any of the other small autos I’ve owned. Of course, the G42 is a pretty large (and simple) pocket pistol. We shall see how my Seecamp experiment goes, as that one racks up some pocket time.

But, yeah, for whatever reason, that first round tends to get married to the chamber in small guns that bounce around close to the body for a while. JMO. You’ve forgotten more about small gun use than I know, but I think you’re spot on about this, FWIW.

[SwampDweller]

It appears to be an artifact of the gun not being manipulated or lubed for a period of time. One of my friends noted that if he went more than two weeks without getting rid of the pocket dsut and lubing the gun that he'd regularly get the one round and a stove pipe effect

Slightly off topic, but I’ve been listening to your recent P&S modcast “How To Revolver” and full(er) size revolvers were briefly talked about, including potential advantages of .357 Magnum in 4-6” revolvers. My question is: What loads in .357 Magnum are best for say, a 4” model GP100?

Thanks, I’ve been learning a lot from you.

For my incoming 642, I have Federal Gold Metal Match .38 full wadcutters ordered.

[Mark D]

Regarding maintenance; I carry a 642 in my pocket for about 16 hours a day. That's about 5,700 hours a year. Every few months, I wipe it down, inspect it, and snake the lint out of the barrel and cylinder. Every year or so I shoot what's in the cylinder and put fresh ammo in it. That's it.

[Chuck Haggard]

Slightly off topic, but I’ve been listening to your recent P&S modcast “How To Revolver” and full(er) size revolvers were briefly talked about, including potential advantages of .357 Magnum in 4-6” revolvers. My question is: What loads in .357 Magnum are best for say, a 4” model GP100?

Thanks, I’ve been learning a lot from you.

For my incoming 642, I have Federal Gold Metal Match .38 full wadcutters ordered.

Assuming you mean for defensive use, almost any of the old school .357mag 158gr JHPs do really well, as do some of the 140gr JHPs like the Remington and the Winchester Silvertip. Save the 125 and 158gr Gold Dots in the .357 for hunting.

In .38 +p the 135gr Gold Dot and the Remington 158gr LSWCHP also work well from a 4" gun.

[Chuck Haggard]

There's also extractor rods walking loose*, and the ever popular ballistic bullet pull, where a bullet jumps the crimp and jams things up good and hard. Usually because the shooter didn't read the recommendations in the manual.


*A friend had a Model 10 with this exact problem.

The ejector rod coming unscrewed is THE issue I typically see in the S&Ws

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My 442 had that problem - traded it for 642, no problems.

[SwampDweller]

Assuming you mean for defensive use, almost any of the old school .357mag 158gr JHPs do really well, as do some of the 140gr JHPs like the Remington and the Winchester Silvertip. Save the 125 and 158gr Gold Dots in the .357 for hunting.

In .38 +p the 135gr Gold Dot and the Remington 158gr LSWCHP also work well from a 4" gun.

Yes, I meant for defensive use. I'm surprised to hear that the old school JHP loads are recommended over bonded Speer Gold Dot 125gr and 158gr. I take it's an overpenetration issue?

Does the extra "horse power" of the Silvertip or Remington give any advantage over, say, a modern duty 9mm load?

[Rex G]

For those not already familiar with the issue, the ejector rod, on S&W revolvers, does not spontaneously and immediately jump from firm to falling off. It happens gradually, so, can be discovered, and remedied, by checking the weapon regularly, such as during the normal, regular wiping-down, for dust and lint. Notably, S&W ejector rods are not all tightened in the same direction. All of mine are tightened in a counter-clockwise direction, but earlier ones tighten in a clockwise direction. I do not know the date of the change in thread direction.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yes, I meant for defensive use. I'm surprised to hear that the old school JHP loads are recommended over bonded Speer Gold Dot 125gr and 158gr. I take it's an overpenetration issue?

Does the extra "horse power" of the Silvertip or Remington give any advantage over, say, a modern duty 9mm load?

The 125 and 158gr Gold Dots are more of a hunting load, they penetrate a LOT. The Speer Gold Dot bullet chart info is accurate.

http://https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Speer-Gold-Dot-Ammunition-Comparison.jpg

As far as does something like a 158gr .357 have an advantage over a good 9mm loading? I think some, from my experience in shooting deer with both. I still mostly carry 9mms when I'm not in the woods though.

[SwampDweller]

The 125 and 158gr Gold Dots are more of a hunting load, they penetrate a LOT. The Speer Gold Dot bullet chart info is accurate.

http://https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Speer-Gold-Dot-Ammunition-Comparison.jpg

As far as does something like a 158gr .357 have an advantage over a good 9mm loading? I think some, from my experience in shooting deer with both. I still mostly carry 9mms when I'm not in the woods though.

For some reason I can't see the link, but I know I've found it before.

Thanks for the insight, that helps. Long ago I went down the revolver rabbit hole, but I was younger and more foolish and was running cases of hot .357 Magnum through an old Python. Once that broke (though I got it fixed), I just kind of stopped with revolvers, but now I find myself more interested in them in a defensive carry capacity, both in terms of a J Frame for the pocket and I'm even curious about a "duty-ish" size 4". I used to carry that 6" Python and I'm not sure the extra 2" over 4 inch is doing anything meaningful other than making it more complicated to carry and draw.

Ever since that Python I've always been attracted to the idea of finding a medium-to-full-size revolver that could stand up to the kind of hard use a quality semi auto would. Been thinking about the GP100.

[Half Moon]

For those not already familiar with the issue, the ejector rod, on S&W revolvers, does not spontaneously and immediately jump from firm to falling off. It happens gradually, so, can be discovered, and remedied, by checking the weapon regularly. Notably, S&W ejector rods are not all tightened in the same direction. All of mine are tightened in a counter-clockwise direction, but earlier ones tighten in a clockwise direction. I do not know the date of the change in thread direction.

It happened sometime in the early 1960's. In theory the change in thread direction was supposed to minimize the risk of the ejector rod backing out since the cylinder rotating the opposite direction wouldn't unscrew the rod. In practice it's hit or miss whichever the direction of the threads. My early '80's Model 38 is more prone to back out than anything I own. On the other hand I have both pre-Model # and early '90's models that have never backed out. Go figure.

[Rex G]

It happened sometime in the early 1960's. In theory the change in thread direction was supposed to minimize the risk of the ejector rod backing out since the cylinder rotating the opposite direction wouldn't unscrew the rod. In practice it's hit or miss whichever the direction of the threads. My early '80's Model 38 is more prone to back out than anything I own. On the other hand I have both pre-Model # and early '90's models that have never backed out. Go figure.

Thanks. All of my revolvers are newer than this, except one, and, I have not disassembled that one, or found the ejector rod to be loose, so, the thread direction has become a concern, yet.

[SwampDweller]

As mentioned before, I've often pondered a GP100 as a "duty" size revolver that could run for long periods of time with minimal issues, given frequent cleaning. I like the Smiths better in terms of feel, but it seems like the Ruger double action revolvers are about as close as you can get to Glock 17 reliability in a revolver format. If I'm wrong on this and the Smiths are, I'd like to know. It just seems that revolvers often need to go down for service - at a gunsmith level no less - at quite a more substantial rate than autos if shot with regularity. Does Ruger have an advantage over Smith in this way, or am I incorrect in thinking this?

For a pocket carry lightweight gun/BUG .38 Special I have no issues trusting a J Frame with no lock, since it won't be run as hard as a full size handgun might be.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

The 125 and 158gr Gold Dots are more of a hunting load, they penetrate a LOT. The Speer Gold Dot bullet chart info is accurate.

http://https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Speer-Gold-Dot-Ammunition-Comparison.jpg

As far as does something like a 158gr .357 have an advantage over a good 9mm loading? I think some, from my experience in shooting deer with both. I still mostly carry 9mms when I'm not in the woods though.

Ammo question that's relevant to the 9mm pocket pistol discussion in this thread - a couple of us in the ammo subforum noticed that in a recent P&S podcast you said that you've never seen 147gr HST expand from anything shorter than a Glock 19. Can you discuss this a bit more? Were you referring to "street" results or your own testing? At one point 147 HST was known to be a good performer out of short barrels, at least in some calibrated gel tests, so I was rather taken aback when I heard you say that.

[SwampDweller]

The 125 and 158gr Gold Dots are more of a hunting load, they penetrate a LOT. The Speer Gold Dot bullet chart info is accurate.

http://https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Speer-Gold-Dot-Ammunition-Comparison.jpg

As far as does something like a 158gr .357 have an advantage over a good 9mm loading? I think some, from my experience in shooting deer with both. I still mostly carry 9mms when I'm not in the woods though.

Sorry to pelt you with another response to this post, so I'll keep it short: Do you see a valid use for a medium-to-large frame revolver as far as an every day defensive carry, or does a revolver mainly only remain logical as a pocket/BUG? As in, outside of outdoors activities (ie, two legged predators rather than 4 legged).

[4RNR]

As mentioned before, I've often pondered a GP100 as a "duty" size revolver that could run for long periods of time with minimal issues, given frequent cleaning. I like the Smiths better in terms of feel, but it seems like the Ruger double action revolvers are about as close as you can get to Glock 17 reliability in a revolver format. If I'm wrong on this and the Smiths are, I'd like to know. It just seems that revolvers often need to go down for service - at a gunsmith level no less - at quite a more substantial rate than autos if shot with regularity. Does Ruger have an advantage over Smith in this way, or am I incorrect in thinking this?

For a pocket carry lightweight gun/BUG .38 Special I have no issues trusting a J Frame with no lock, since it won't be run as hard as a full size handgun might be.

Not really no. Ruger's are well built but they're not plug and play. S&W is well built and I've had 4 go to the gunsmith. 1 broken firing pin, 3 cylinder had a hard time rotating after less than 6 rounds. One of which also had some light primer strikes. But I've also had a 1930s Colt that looked like it fought on both sides of WW2 at the same time. It had tons of wear from use. You could see where someone's fingers were by the complete lack of metal finish and smoothed over wooden grips. And that gun kept on running like a champ. Even took it to a revolver class in 2018 and did pretty good all things considered.

Nothing against revolvers, I have a dozen, but compared to modern semi automatics I don't see what a full size revolver brings to the table to chose it for daily carry.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[SwampDweller]

Not really no. Ruger's are well built but they're not plug and play. S&W is well built and I've had 4 go to the gunsmith. 1 broken firing pin, 3 cylinder had a hard time rotating after less than 6 rounds. One of which also had some light primer strikes. But I've also had a 1930s Colt that looked like it fought on both sides of WW2 at the same time. It had tons of wear from use. You could see where someone's fingers were by the complete lack of metal finish and smoothed over wooden grips. And that gun kept on running like a champ. Even took it to a revolver class in 2018 and did pretty good all things considered.

Nothing against revolvers, I have a dozen, but compared to modern semi automatics I don't see what a full size revolver brings to the table to chose it for daily carry.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

My thinking refers back to earlier in the thread where it was stated that autoloaders tend to show great reliability at the range, but when put in the chaos of an actual shooting, they seem to have stoppages a lot more often. Police bodycam footage reflects this. Wouldn't revolvers be immune to this? That's my thinking in the potential advantage of a full size revolver over a semi auto.

Would a GP100 really be less reliable than a decent 1911? I just have a hard time wrapping my head around that. Then again, I've had pretty bad luck with 1911s. Even the premium ones like Wilsons I've been able to run have been finicky enough to not trust.

[4RNR]

My thinking refers back to earlier in the thread where it was stated that autoloaders tend to show great reliability at the range, but when put in the chaos of an actual shooting, they seem to have stoppages a lot more often. Police bodycam footage reflects this. Wouldn't revolvers be immune to this? That's my thinking in the potential advantage of a full size revolver over a semi auto.

Would a GP100 really be less reliable than a decent 1911? I just have a hard time wrapping my head around that. Then again, I've had pretty bad luck with 1911s. Even the premium ones like Wilsons I've been able to run have been finicky enough to not trust.

I don't think it would matter a whole lot. Revolvers still have moving parts.

The body cam footage. Does it show the problem causing the malfunction? Machine or human? My own personal experience is when shooting revolvers on the clock I tend to have reliability issues. No issues with semi auto. It's all me and not the gun but that end result is still the same. The faster I go with a revolver the more my timing is off. I think it's called short stroking. A training issue! Is that what we're seeing in those police videos? A training issue?


I'm not sure why the GP has to be compared to a 1911. I can say my 1911 has never failed but it's more for fun and doesn't get shot a lot or under pressure.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[Rex G]

Regarding GP100 reliability, they do seem to run, and run, unless some powder fouling builds-up under the extractor, which, of course, is resolved by cleaning. If one is fortunate enough to find one of the early ones, with grunge grooves under the extractor star, it takes a heck of a lot more powder fouling to cause problems.

[WobblyPossum]

My thinking refers back to earlier in the thread where it was stated that autoloaders tend to show great reliability at the range, but when put in the chaos of an actual shooting, they seem to have stoppages a lot more often. Police bodycam footage reflects this. Wouldn't revolvers be immune to this? That's my thinking in the potential advantage of a full size revolver over a semi auto.

Would a GP100 really be less reliable than a decent 1911? I just have a hard time wrapping my head around that. Then again, I've had pretty bad luck with 1911s. Even the premium ones like Wilsons I've been able to run have been finicky enough to not trust.

Also keep in mind that pretty much all bodycam footage in the United States shows shootings with semiautomatic pistols. The police aren’t carrying revolvers anymore. If bodycams were around 50 years ago, would there be footage of officers having malfunctions with their service revolvers during some shootings? Maybe. I don’t know. I do know that you can’t take X bodycam videos of semiautomatic shootings and compare them to X bodycam videos of revolver shootings to see what malfunctions more. Pretty much everyone on the professional gun carrying side has a semiautomatic in their holster so the ability to compare these days isn’t really there.

[UNK]

Here is a capable gun (G26) in a fanny pack.
Works well to just throw it on wearing just about anything. Belt or no belt.

94299

94300

That was one of the fanny packs I looked at. I passed on it because I thought it would be filled by a J frame, glock 26 is what I am interested in carrying in the pack so thanks for posting that pic. I think theres a seperate pocket on that pack is it big enough to hold a cell phone and a wallet?

[Half Moon]

A lot of it comes down to your use case. My experience says mechanical failures are about dead even between semi-autos and revolvers. Semi's though are prone to feed cycle failures which revolvers aren't (keys with a revolver use good quality jacketed or plated ammo, clean the revolver regularly, etc. With semis use good quality ammo with good quality magazines, etc). The revolver has limited capacity and slow reload and is better suited to a one or two goblin encounter. Semi is better suited to a multiple goblin encounter. No matter what you pick there are trade offs. Figure out what compromises are most acceptable and go from there.

[Leroy Suggs]

UNK Will probably hold a smaller phone and average wallet.
An iPhone 12 Mini and small wallet fits in mine ok.

[feudist]

There seems to be some conflation of terms with "functional reliability" If the gun is in proper working order then the ability to fire a full magazine or cylinder constitutes minimum functional reliability. Autos are subject to extraction, ejection and feeding issues while revolvers are subject to inertial bullet pull and high primers. Issues with both systems can be uncovered and remedied during testing of that individual gun. There is an amount of testing to determine satisfactory reliability but the number of rounds is not generally agreed upon. But, carefully vetted guns will exhibit equal functional reliability.
Some of the issues reported about revolvers are durability and training endurance issues. Service life is a durability issue. The number of rounds before gumming up the mechanism is a training endurance issue, as demonstrated by the 2000 Round Test stickied on this forum.
Autos are subject to the same issues while adding another only commonly seen in high pressure situations:Operator induced malfunctions.
Probably the most frequent and recognized of these is "limp-wristing" made infamous by Glock customer service to the point that many people don't believe it exists.
Other common examples are premature slide stop activation during the recoil cycle, inadvertent magazine release(especially in pocket guns) and friction stoppages from slide interference by thumbs and clothing.
Even reading routine range shooting evaluations will uncover these stoppages frequently with the authors explaining them away as "Training issues"
Just so.
The problem is that training issues means they have to be trained for, and there are severe limitations on how dynamic training and practice can be within safety requirements, while there are no such limits to gunfight conditions.
And defensive gunfights, as opposed to close and capture gunfights, occur in close quarters under extremely compressed time frames.

Are revolvers subject to operator induced malfunctions? Only one, and it self corrects. Double clutching the trigger, AKA failure to reset, will not fire the gun. Simply pulling the trigger again will fire the next round, but now you have placed 1/5 or 1/6 of your ammo capacity an extra trigger pull away.
An Academy classmate of mine was involved in a gunfight and only managed to fire 3 of 6 because he double clutched the trigger.
I did see a marginal female cop achieve the most spectacular display of incompetence once on a close range stress course. I had introduced a shot timer into the course and it blew stress levels into lower Earth orbit instantly.
On the beep, she began drawing her pistol and moving off line. Something happened between touching the security holster and her ears. As she drew and brought the Model 10 up she somehow activated the cylinder release and swung the cylinder out, got the barrel pointed at an aircraft flying overhead and launching the unfired cartridges towards the target.
Stunned silence. Then applause.
We examined the gun and it was in perfect working order. Would to God we'd have had cell phone cameras back then.
So that's one in a row.
That one drill did result in quite a few stoppages with autos. The drill used a bowling pin set inside a torso shaped box wearing clothes. At the beep you moved hard off line, drew and shot it until you knocked it over.
The novel *combo of time pressure(that no one had experienced before) with lateral movement(rarely practiced in qual) and the shock of shooting the target and missing the pin at 5 yards and then going cyclic(most shooting was done much farther) unhinged shooters. We saw all the aforementioned malfs and frequently the immediate action techniques were ineffective or resulted in a worse jam.

* This is key: very little training or practice is novel enough to induce stress levels that cause physical and mental changes in shot cycle execution.

[SwampDweller]

There seems to be some conflation of terms with "functional reliability" If the gun is in proper working order then the ability to fire a full magazine or cylinder constitutes minimum functional reliability. Autos are subject to extraction, ejection and feeding issues while revolvers are subject to inertial bullet pull and high primers. Issues with both systems can be uncovered and remedied during testing of that individual gun. There is an amount of testing to determine satisfactory reliability but the number of rounds is not generally agreed upon. But, carefully vetted guns will exhibit equal functional reliability.
Some of the issues reported about revolvers are durability and training endurance issues. Service life is a durability issue. The number of rounds before gumming up the mechanism is a training endurance issue, as demonstrated by the 2000 Round Test stickied on this forum.
Autos are subject to the same issues while adding another only commonly seen in high pressure situations:Operator induced malfunctions.
Probably the most frequent and recognized of these is "limp-wristing" made infamous by Glock customer service to the point that many people don't believe it exists.
Other common examples are premature slide stop activation during the recoil cycle, inadvertent magazine release(especially in pocket guns) and friction stoppages from slide interference by thumbs and clothing.
Even reading routine range shooting evaluations will uncover these stoppages frequently with the authors explaining them away as "Training issues"
Just so.
The problem is that training issues means they have to be trained for, and there are severe limitations on how dynamic training and practice can be within safety requirements, while there are no such limits to gunfight conditions.
And defensive gunfights, as opposed to close and capture gunfights, occur in close quarters under extremely compressed time frames.

Are revolvers subject to operator induced malfunctions? Only one, and it self corrects. Double clutching the trigger, AKA failure to reset, will not fire the gun. Simply pulling the trigger again will fire the next round, but now you have placed 1/5 or 1/6 of your ammo capacity an extra trigger pull away.
An Academy classmate of mine was involved in a gunfight and only managed to fire 3 of 6 because he double clutched the trigger.
I did see a marginal female cop achieve the most spectacular display of incompetence once on a close range stress course. I had introduced a shot timer into the course and it blew stress levels into lower Earth orbit instantly.
On the beep, she began drawing her pistol and moving off line. Something happened between touching the security holster and her ears. As she drew and brought the Model 10 up she somehow activated the cylinder release and swung the cylinder out, got the barrel pointed at an aircraft flying overhead and launching the unfired cartridges towards the target.
Stunned silence. Then applause.
We examined the gun and it was in perfect working order. Would to God we'd have had cell phone cameras back then.
So that's one in a row.
That one drill did result in quite a few stoppages with autos. The drill used a bowling pin set inside a torso shaped box wearing clothes. At the beep you moved hard off line, drew and shot it until you knocked it over.
The novel *combo of time pressure(that no one had experienced before) with lateral movement(rarely practiced in qual) and the shock of shooting the target and missing the pin at 5 yards and then going cyclic(most shooting was done much farther) unhinged shooters. We saw all the aforementioned malfs and frequently the immediate action techniques were ineffective or resulted in a worse jam.

* This is key: very little training or practice is novel enough to induce stress levels that cause physical and mental changes in shot cycle execution.

Excellent information.

Maybe I'm out of line here, but I get the impression that while autoloaders have the advantage on relatively low stress flat-range shooting in reliability and lack of cleaning... when the bullets start flying and chaos reigns during a gunfight, a double action revolver, provided its been kept reasonably clean and loaded with in-spec ammo, is going to be more reliable, with the main user-induced "malfunction" being correctable with a simple pull of the trigger.

Maybe this isn't true, but even if it is, does it outweigh the other advantages of a modern autoloader, especially in an age where we are increasingly seeing multiple attackers in crimes?

[SwampDweller]

I don't think it would matter a whole lot. Revolvers still have moving parts.

The body cam footage. Does it show the problem causing the malfunction? Machine or human? My own personal experience is when shooting revolvers on the clock I tend to have reliability issues. No issues with semi auto. It's all me and not the gun but that end result is still the same. The faster I go with a revolver the more my timing is off. I think it's called short stroking. A training issue! Is that what we're seeing in those police videos? A training issue?


I'm not sure why the GP has to be compared to a 1911. I can say my 1911 has never failed but it's more for fun and doesn't get shot a lot or under pressure.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

It could indeed be a training issue in those police videos, or as Mr. Haggard pointed out before, the fact that autoloaders in a holster for months on your hip dry out and get full of lint/debris unless cleaned and lubed every couple of weeks or so.

I guess the reason I compare the GP100 to a 1911 is that it is frequently pointed out that the old concept that revolvers are less reliable than automatics is a myth. But with the 1911, I happen to agree with the likes of DocGKR, Larry Vickers, and others, that to have a truly reliable 1911 to trust your life to, you are going to have to spend a lot of time and money ($2500+) getting it set up correctly and will need to spend time and money keeping it that way. With a revolver like a GP100 that is simple and rugged and assuming there are no QC issues with that particular example or the ammo, I don't think it would take much to get and keep running other than cleaning it at reasonable intervals in places like the extractor star.

[SwampDweller]

I'm going to post a paraphrase (still has the basic facts) of a Border Patrol test that I believe was done in the early 80s with the Ruger Security Six that I thought was interesting:

Testing consisted of 10,000 rounds of 158gr. 357 Magnum ammo all one lot number. The S&Ws were beyond rebuild at 1500 rounds as they would not time up correctly double action. The Rugers went 10,000 rounds and the Border Patrol bought 5000 of Security Sixes with round butts.

I had found the original document of the test a couple of years ago, but I can't seem to find it now. They had tested a bunch of Security Sixes against S&W M66s and came up with the above results.

[awp_101]

It could indeed be a training issue in those police videos, or as Mr. Haggard pointed out before, the fact that autoloaders in a holster for months on your hip dry out and get full of lint/debris unless cleaned and lubed every couple of weeks or so.
I believe the phrase I've heard used on the P&S Modcasts is: revolvers are more tolerant of neglect than a semi-auto.

[Clusterfrack]

Y’all must have some linty-ass pockets. My p380 has been pocketed for 3 months, and I inspected it just now. There was a small amount of dust in a few external areas, but the action was clean, still lubed (Lucas oil), and smooth.

[titsonritz]

I'm going to post a paraphrase (still has the basic facts) of a Border Patrol test that I believe was done in the early 80s with the Ruger Security Six that I thought was interesting:

Testing consisted of 10,000 rounds of 158gr. 357 Magnum ammo all one lot number. The S&Ws were beyond rebuild at 1500 rounds as they would not time up correctly double action. The Rugers went 10,000 rounds and the Border Patrol bought 5000 of Security Sixes with round butts.

I had found the original document of the test a couple of years ago, but I can't seem to find it now. They had tested a bunch of Security Sixes against S&W M66s and came up with the above results.

K-frames weren't designed to handle .357 they forced into it, they are easy to kill on that steady diet.

[SwampDweller]

K-frames weren't designed to handle .357 they forced into it, they are easy to kill on that steady diet.

True, I wonder how a present-day 686 would do vs a present-day Ruger GP100 if both had 10k rounds of magnums put through them.

[BillSWPA]

I field stripped and lubed my P365 earlier this evening. The only lint I found was in the trigger area. Well-designed pistols are generally good at keeping lint out of the internals. This was after multiple months of daily carry, mostly in a pocket holster.

My Glock 26 and North American Arms Guardian .380 are also very well designed to keep lint out of the internals.

As much as I like Kel-Tec .32 and .380 pistols, they are lint magnets. They should definitely be field stripped, cleaned, and re-lubed every couple of weeks.

[titsonritz]

True, I wonder how a present-day 686 would do vs a present-day Ruger GP100 if both had 10k rounds of magnums put through them.

Same thing as the 66 vs SS

[Glenn E. Meyer]

On revolver malfunctions:

https://revolverguy.com/backed-out-ejector-rod-malfunction/

My 442 did this all the. I traded it for a 642. None of my other SWs had the problem. I always wondered why this was the design. Rugers don't do that, it seems.

[Half Moon]

On revolver malfunctions:

https://revolverguy.com/backed-out-ejector-rod-malfunction/

My 442 did this all the. I traded it for a 642. None of my other SWs had the problem. I always wondered why this was the design. Rugers don't do that, it seems.

It's very much an S&W thing. Never seen it happen in a Colt, Roger, Charter, Taurus, Yada. It also seems hit and miss across individual examples across all generations of S&W. No idea why. Insufficient torque, loose tolerance, other???

[Leroy Suggs]

Y’all must have some linty-ass pockets. My p380 has been pocketed for 3 months, and I inspected it just now. There was a small amount of dust in a few external areas, but the action was clean, still lubed (Lucas oil), and smooth.

This!
You lint people don't wash your pants?
Don't turn the pockets out daily?

I looked at my G43 just now. It has 2 months of pocket carry and it.s clean and slick just like Mr. Clusterfracks is.

[Lost River]

I will take the 442 with a full firing grip while in my pocket any day over just about anything.

https://i.imgur.com/Gn1mnjD.jpg?1

It has worked for years and thousands of rounds, both standard velocity and +P.

Some time ago I broke a firing pin on this gun, and S&W was going to repair it for free, but since it was my BUG I asked them to send me out the firing pin and I replaced it myself.

https://i.imgur.com/Z09Mi9l.jpg

It was back in action in no time and has been G2G ever since.

I do not consider the 442 or any pocket gun to be a primary outside of some sort of compromising situation, but for those times when nothing else works, they are truly excellent, and a 148 full wadcutter at 820 FPS from a J Frame is a very deep penetrating load.

While not pleasant to shoot, when using the mods I use for the grips, I am able to do some decent work with them.

[Flamingo]

I had found the original document of the test a couple of years ago, but I can't seem to find it now. They had tested a bunch of Security Sixes against S&W M66s and came up with the above results.

Outpost75 is very knowledgeable on this test and has the original data.

[Jim Watson]

Random thoughts and responses.

On topic, my M38 is largely retired in favor of a small 9mm, either G43 or LC9s.

A friend carries the NAA WRM, calls it his "15 foot switchblade". I think unusual for the type, he practices. An assailant will be combing lead out of his eyebrows, to use a Dean Grennel term.

Restrooms: One of my main IDPA companions is a Lady.
Not counting indoor ranges, we have shot at two places with good restrooms, unfortunately rather distant from the bays. A stop coming in and going out usually suffices, but she has been known to request the car keys in the middle of the match. A third range is literally behind the MD's house, and she will ask to use the indoor facilities instead of the portable.
She is a genuine outdoorswoman, who shoots, hunts, fishes, and rides. I have known her to seek the bushes on an unimproved range, but she certainly prefers mod cons.

[Edster]

It's very much an S&W thing. Never seen it happen in a Colt, Roger, Charter, Taurus, Yada. It also seems hit and miss across individual examples across all generations of S&W. No idea why. Insufficient torque, loose tolerance, other???

I had it happen with my 686. I got in the habit of giving the ejector rod a good firm hand twist frequently.

I sold the 686 and replaced it with a GP100 Match Champion. The GP100 rod doesn't screw in like that so no problem. Instead, now I get powder-under-the-extractor can't-close-the-cylinder problems more than I care to count. I've learned to keep that area bone dry but it still happens. It seems more of a problem with the crappy "all I could find" ammunition I'm trying to finish off.

"Six for sure." After that, "good luck," I guess.

[SwampDweller]

I had it happen with my 686. I got in the habit of giving the ejector rod a good firm hand twist frequently.

I sold the 686 and replaced it with a GP100 Match Champion. The GP100 rod doesn't screw in like that so no problem. Instead, now I get powder-under-the-extractor can't-close-the-cylinder problems more than I care to count. I've learned to keep that area bone dry but it still happens. It seems more of a problem with the crappy "all I could find" ammunition I'm trying to finish off.

"Six for sure." After that, "good luck," I guess.

How many rounds fired is it after cleaning before you start having the powder-under-the-extractor problem?

Got my 642-1 no-lock today. Very lightweight, carries in my shorts pocket no heavier than my cellphone and keys. I think I have a winner here as long as it works when I take it to the range.
94434

[Lost River]

That will depend a lot on the powder, charge weight, projectile type etc. Some slower soft lead loads are quite smoky and can cause a gun to get dirty quite quickly. There is a reason why "back in the day", when coppers carried wheel guns and men did not wear dresses, during qual day, guys would often stop part way through a training and break out a toothbrush and give their guns a real good once over before continuing on.

[Half Moon]

How many rounds fired is it after cleaning before you start having the powder-under-the-extractor problem?

Got my 642-1 no-lock today. Very lightweight, carries in my shorts pocket no heavier than my cellphone and keys. I think I have a winner here as long as it works when I take it to the range.

We're talking about debris falling so theoretically could be any. Really haven't seen it using quality ammo though. I was also taught to raise the revolver to the vertical prior to ejecting which is supposed to minimize the risk. I've seen a handful of folks state this actually increases the risk but I think the way I was taught is more the conventional wisdom.

[Edster]

How many rounds fired is it after cleaning before you start having the powder-under-the-extractor problem?



There's not a pattern to it. I've gone through several cylinders with no problem and I've had it block on the first reload with a clean gun.

When I empty the cylinder, I almost always go muzzle vertical and give the ejector rod a stout jab. My guess is this causes unburned powder from the cases to fly out and find its way under the star.

I don't think I ever had the problem with my j frame but I'm usually shooting real magnums out of the GP100. There might be more powder in each cartridge to fly out.

A quick wipe under the star with a rag brings it back every time. Sometimes even just swiping it with a finger does the trick.

[SwampDweller]

That will depend a lot on the powder, charge weight, projectile type etc. Some slower soft lead loads are quite smoky and can cause a gun to get dirty quite quickly. There is a reason why "back in the day", when coppers carried wheel guns and men did not wear dresses, during qual day, guys would often stop part way through a training and break out a toothbrush and give their guns a real good once over before continuing on.

With determining reliability, with autos, I use Fed. American Eagle or Speer Lawman as the "control load", as I plan to do with my 642-1 no-lock (it's going to be AE 158gr LRN as that's what's available presently). I've found those to be the best in eliminating ammunition from the equation as far as determining the reliability of the firearm itself goes. They seem to be the ones to go to with contracts, so I put my baseline on that, if I'm not mistaken in doing this.

[SwampDweller]

There's not a pattern to it. I've gone through several cylinders with no problem and I've had it block on the first reload with a clean gun.

When I empty the cylinder, I almost always go muzzle vertical and give the ejector rod a stout jab. My guess is this causes unburned powder from the cases to fly out and find its way under the star.

I don't think I ever had the problem with my j frame but I'm usually shooting real magnums out of the GP100. There might be more powder in each cartridge to fly out.

A quick wipe under the star with a rag brings it back every time. Sometimes even just swiping it with a finger does the trick.

Do you think this could have anything to do with the ammunition being used, as it could with autoloader functioning? As in, when you're shooting magnums when this stoppage happens what are you using? Surely this doesn't happen with each cylinder, correct? If so, how many rounds does it take to experience this?

Sorry, I'm trying to learn more about this, and I know this is a semi-auto forum. If this should be moved or locked I understand.

[Half Moon]

There's not a pattern to it. I've gone through several cylinders with no problem and I've had it block on the first reload with a clean gun.

When I empty the cylinder, I almost always go muzzle vertical and give the ejector rod a stout jab. My guess is this causes unburned powder from the cases to fly out and find its way under the star.

I don't think I ever had the problem with my j frame but I'm usually shooting real magnums out of the GP100. There might be more powder in each cartridge to fly out.

A quick wipe under the star with a rag brings it back every time. Sometimes even just swiping it with a finger does the trick.

Any particular load or brand of. 357? I think I've had it happen once ever. Wondering if there's a pattern. In .357 I'm usually using jacketed 158 grain or sometimes 180 grain hard cast.

[blues]

...when coppers carried wheel guns and men did not wear dresses, during qual day, guys would often stop part way through a training and break out a toothbrush and give their guns a real good once over before continuing on.

Obviously, so they wouldn't be kilt on da streets.

(I actually remember those days. I don't think I carried an issued semi-auto until 1988.)

[Edster]

Any particular load or brand of. 357? I think I've had it happen once ever. Wondering if there's a pattern. In .357 I'm usually using jacketed 158 grain or sometimes 180 grain hard cast.

I always use jacketed 158 grain but brands vary. Last session was Precision One and Norma. I started with the Norma and didn't have a problem. When I started trying to use up the Precision One, it happened. I honestly don't like the Precision One much -- it's not accurate in my gun.

Previous brands I've used included Fiocchi, Aguila, PMC, Prvi, and there was probably some Magtech in there. I'm going to start doing a better job of tracking it against ammo brands. Some of those brands have reputations for being rather dirty.

[Edster]

Do you think this could have anything to do with the ammunition being used, as it could with autoloader functioning? As in, when you're shooting magnums when this stoppage happens what are you using? Surely this doesn't happen with each cylinder, correct? If so, how many rounds does it take to experience this?

Sorry, I'm trying to learn more about this, and I know this is a semi-auto forum. If this should be moved or locked I understand.

I strongly suspect the brand of ammo is a factor. With availability issues, I have had to use ammo brands I would have passed on five years ago.

It doesn't happen with each cylinder. It's irregular. I've had it happen on the first reload and I've gone several cylinders with no problem.

I'm usually pretty logical/linear about troubleshooting but this is not a regular carry gun for me so I haven't gotten too serious about figuring it out. If I was depending on it, I'd be tracking round counts, brands, reload cycles that session, and how I was reloading in a spreadsheet until I found the pattern.

Right now, my best guess is "lots of unburnt powder flying out of cheap ammo".

I did find getting the ejector rod totally dry reduced the incidents noticeably. Lube on that part seems to be a crud retainer.

[MDFA]

Obviously, so they wouldn't be kilt on da streets.

(I actually remember those days. I don't think I carried an issued semi-auto until 1988.)

1977 to 1989 with a Revolver. switched to a Smith 6906 for my first issued semi auto.

Regarding the original post. As much as I liked a 642 in a pocket, I go with a 365 now.

[blues]

1977 to 1989 with a Revolver. switched to a Smith 6906 for my first issued semi auto.

Regarding the original post. As much as I liked a 642 in a pocket, I go with a 365 now.

MDFA

I believe, as best I can recall, that the S&W 6946 was our first issued semi-auto. (But we could carry anything over .380 that was personally owned as long as we qualified with it quarterly. That policy would change several years later. )

1977 was my EOD for gov't service.

[SwampDweller]

Outpost75 is very knowledgeable on this test and has the original data.

I would love to hear more on this from him. Hopefully he will make an appearance.

[SwampDweller]

I strongly suspect the brand of ammo is a factor. With availability issues, I have had to use ammo brands I would have passed on five years ago.

It doesn't happen with each cylinder. It's irregular. I've had it happen on the first reload and I've gone several cylinders with no problem.

I'm usually pretty logical/linear about troubleshooting but this is not a regular carry gun for me so I haven't gotten too serious about figuring it out. If I was depending on it, I'd be tracking round counts, brands, reload cycles that session, and how I was reloading in a spreadsheet until I found the pattern.

Right now, my best guess is "lots of unburnt powder flying out of cheap ammo".

I did find getting the ejector rod totally dry reduced the incidents noticeably. Lube on that part seems to be a crud retainer.

Could it also have to do with soft unjacketed lead bullets? Those are pretty dirty.

[feudist]

Could it also have to do with soft unjacketed lead bullets? Those are pretty dirty.

Rick Devoid of Tarnhelm Supply used to offer the +P Powder Eater modification to the ejection star. It was basically relief grooves cut underneath the star.
Ayoob used Devoid a lot back in the day. I'm sure any smith could duplicate it. Devoid still shows it on his website for 75.00.

[Joe S]

They still make some sense if one needs the absolute smallest, lightest gun available.




Other than as a snake dispatcher, do you feel like they actually have a reasonable use that a Spyderco Delica can't cover and more? Curious, because that's how I always thought of them.

[Totem Polar]

Anyone else here think that a modern, alloy reintroduction of the i-frame, with decent sights, in .22LR would be cool for pocket use?

A 6-shot centennial i-frame .22 LR with a decent front sight that weighed, say, 12-13 oz using affordable 642 metallurgy would get my tail wagging.

j vs i:


https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/iframe-vs-jframe.jpg

[feudist]

Anyone else here think that a modern, alloy reintroduction of the i-frame, with decent sights, in .22LR would be cool for pocket use?

A 6-shot centennial i-frame .22 LR with a decent front sight that weighed, say, 12-13 oz using affordable 642 metallurgy would get my tail wagging.

j vs i:


https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/iframe-vs-jframe.jpg

Give it a double pronged firing pin, a la the 1800s Henry .44 Rimfire for reliability. Although since I used up my Hilary panic .22 Minimags I haven't had any misfires out of my LCP2 .22 or my new LCR .22.

[Half Moon]

Anyone else here think that a modern, alloy reintroduction of the i-frame, with decent sights, in .22LR would be cool for pocket use?

A 6-shot centennial i-frame .22 LR with a decent front sight that weighed, say, 12-13 oz using affordable 642 metallurgy would get my tail wagging.

j vs i:


https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/iframe-vs-jframe.jpg

I like the thought! If we're looking at unlikely revivals though how about a Newer Departure:

94479

Chamber in .32 S&W Long (or maybe H&R Mag but unsure how much the top latch can reasonably be strengthened) and .22 LR, modern lightweight alloy, Novak style or other usable sights, lose the grip safety, and clean up the trigger pull. There's got to be, like, dozens of sales just waiting to happen :-)

[wmu12071]

I like the thought! If we're looking at unlikely revivals though how about a Newer Departure:

94479

Chamber in .32 S&W Long (or maybe H&R Mag but unsure how much the top latch can reasonably be strengthened) and .22 LR, modern lightweight alloy, Novak style or other usable sights, lose the grip safety, and clean up the trigger pull. There's got to be, like, dozens of sales just waiting to happen :-)

I feel like the market for this gun is 10 people be they are all in this thread and would happily buy 2.

[BillSWPA]

Other than as a snake dispatcher, do you feel like they actually have a reasonable use that a Spyderco Delica can't cover and more? Curious, because that's how I always thought of them.

1. As a deep concealment backup gun for an individual who feared kidnapping.

2. A lady trying to conceal a gun in revealing, tight-fitting clothing, perhaps in addition to something more potent in a gun purse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk