View Full Version : Wadcutters vs everything else
Spending a bit of free time today looking over Lucky Gunners 38 and 357 clear gel test.
It seems to me the wadcutter is actually an amazing round for personal defense.
Sure you dont get expansion but you do get deep penetration and the ability to drill through bones and either not exit the body or be found in close vicinity.
You get low recoil making even scandium titanium weight guns tolerable.
If you are not shooting through intermediate barriers, I could be wrong but Id say for the civilian thats probably even more unlikely than getting in a gunfight.
Its actually got better penetration than some .357 rounds particularly the vaunted short barrels rounds. Actually the performance of those rounds wasnt particularly great with the exception of the 135gn 357 gold dot.
I think I saw it mentioned in a conversation recently that the .38 would be a preferable round to the .357 because of ammo advancements in that caliber.
Im not advocating for or against anything just opening a discussion.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
Paul Blackburn
09-02-2022, 07:47 PM
The problem is the availability of the Federal Gold Metal Match Wad Cutters.
The problem is the availability of the Federal Gold Metal Match Wad Cutters.
Looking up ammo off that list availability of everything except a few loads is a problem. None that I would be interested in.
I cant remember the last time precision Delta had wadcutters.
Hambo
09-03-2022, 06:47 AM
If you are not shooting through intermediate barriers, I could be wrong but Id say for the civilian thats probably even more unlikely than getting in a gunfight.
I wouldn't rule that out. Carjacking is the preferred method of car theft everywhere.
Really, I don't care what's in my 442. I have HST, RA38B, maybe some GD, LSWCHP, WC, and LSWC. Any of it will get the job done.
revchuck38
09-03-2022, 07:06 AM
There's no question that wadcutters work. But I already have two separate handloads for .38 Special practice ammo based on POA/POI, 158- and 125-grain at near-+P velocity. I really don't want to have a third, and 158-grain LSWC-HP works well enough from a snubby.
fatdog
09-03-2022, 07:52 AM
Back in the days of the IWBA I think Fackler even wrote about the round's virtues as a defensive round in .38 special. I am sure some day Federal will make the GMM rounds again. Fiocchi, Winchester, and Black Hills have been making them, I have had good experiences with the Precision One brand.
JAH 3rd
09-03-2022, 11:38 AM
Just passing this along. It's pricey though.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/gold-medal/gold-medal-handgun/11-GM38A.html
The problem is the availability of the Federal Gold Metal Match Wad Cutters.
Just passing this along. It's pricey though.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/gold-medal/gold-medal-handgun/11-GM38A.html
Thats close enough to winchester and black hills to be negligble. Winchester is running a bit faster I think 710fps.
Outpost75
09-03-2022, 01:03 PM
Buffalo Bore offers a 150- grain, hard cast, "full charge" wadcutter which gives 850 fps from a 2-inch snub.
Wayne Dobbs
09-03-2022, 01:28 PM
Buffalo Bore offers a 150- grain, hard cast, "full charge" wadcutter which gives 850 fps from a 2-inch snub.
It gives at least that much velocity, Outpost75. I chronographed some this past May that ran 905 fps for five rounds from my S&W M&P 340. It's vigorous! Awaiting pressure testing results from our common friend.
It gives at least that much velocity, Outpost75. I chronographed some this past May that ran 905 fps for five rounds from my S&W M&P 340. It's vigorous! Awaiting pressure testing results from our common friend.
Whats the advantage over commonly available loads running 690-710 fps? The chart from Lucky Gunner had the Winchester at 15.8” and 15.9” from a 2” and 4” revolver.
Were you the person who posted pics of a deer they had killed then tried a head shot and rib shot to see what the wadcutter would do?
PNWTO
09-03-2022, 02:10 PM
Back in the days of the IWBA I think Fackler even wrote about the round's virtues as a defensive round in .38 special. I am sure some day Federal will make the GMM rounds again. Fiocchi, Winchester, and Black Hills have been making them, I have had good experiences with the Precision One brand.
I really like the Precision One FMJ 148s but I can’t help but wonder if the jacket affects cutting ability to a notable degree? I could probably care less, and assume it does, but I don’t know if there’s some comparison out there?
The BB 150s are definitely the BB definition of standard pressure… not the normal WC experience but they shoot to the sights at 25 on two of my LCRs.
Underwood has some coated WCs that I need to try, probably very similar to the BB loading.
Just passing this along. It's pricey though.
https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/gold-medal/gold-medal-handgun/11-GM38A.html
Thanks. Ordered some. I was about out. Yes, it's pretty pricey. :(
358156hp
09-03-2022, 06:05 PM
Thanks. Ordered some. I was about out. Yes, it's pretty pricey. :(
You could buy a decent two cavity bullet mould for that. :eek:
Just yanking your chain a bit:)
the Schwartz
09-03-2022, 06:24 PM
It gives at least that much velocity, Outpost75. I chronographed some this past May that ran 905 fps for five rounds from my S&W M&P 340. It's vigorous! Awaiting pressure testing results from our common friend.
Quite some time ago, John Ervin ((Mech Eng) of Brassfetcher tested the Buffalo Bore .38 Special 150-grain hard cast WC in shear-validated 10% ordnance gelatin and obtained the same velocity of 905 fps you did. Of the three (of five) shots that remained within the test blocks, maximum penetration averaged 23 inches.
Here's the (archived) link if you're interested in looking at the test block and data-
https://web.archive.org/web/20071216014515/http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo%20Bore%20Ammunition%20150gr%20standard%20p ressure%20Hard%20Cast%20Wad%20Cutter.html
5pins
09-03-2022, 07:21 PM
I really like the Precision One FMJ 148s but I can’t help but wonder if the jacket affects cutting ability to a notable degree? I could probably care less, and assume it does, but I don’t know if there’s some comparison out there?
The BB 150s are definitely the BB definition of standard pressure… not the normal WC experience but they shoot to the sights at 25 on two of my LCRs.
Underwood has some coated WCs that I need to try, probably very similar to the BB loading.
I have a box of the Underwood to test, along with about a half dozen other things. So many rounds, so little time, lol.
Navin Johnson
09-03-2022, 08:00 PM
BB 150 WC defeats the purpose of using a wad cutter in a lightweight revolver.
Lucky gunner tests are clear gel…… but pretend all you want. It has been covered so much I’m sure you all know that though.
the Schwartz
09-03-2022, 08:48 PM
....
PNWTO
09-03-2022, 09:28 PM
BB 150 WC defeats the purpose of using a wad cutter in a lightweight revolver.
Agreed but I’ve found the supply chain to be more frequent than FGMM or the Fiocchi WCs. The BB stuff is my field load across anything that chambers it.
The hardcast Wadcutter or other big meplat loads for 38 special would be similar to what Ross Seyfried wrote about years ago in "Rifle or "Handloader" when he developed some handloads for finishing shots on Elk his clients had shot.
Lot of people he guided used Muzzle loaders, Bows, or where trying out really big calibers (field practice before African Safari), so it wasn't totally rare for him or his son to finish off Elk client had hit.
The Scandium J frames were part of their very light kit in steep terrain.
He had some bad failures with Speer TMJ IIRC, so loaded up some 125 & 158 grain hardcast loads and tested them on Elk Spine and skull and they worked fine in test.
And before he wrote the article his son used one of those hardcast loads to finish Elk with solid performance.
Navin Johnson
09-03-2022, 10:58 PM
....
Got an email asking about Lucy gunner but I don’t see it in the thread?
Anyways post #1 references Lucky Gunner?
358156hp
09-03-2022, 11:14 PM
Looky at what else I found. It's actually hotter than what I'd prefer, but perhaps it might appeal to others. You can't beat the price!
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020447045?pid=357002
It's not my intention to shill for Midway, this is just where I found it in stock.
the Schwartz
09-03-2022, 11:22 PM
Looky at what else I found. It's actually hotter than what I'd prefer, but perhaps it might appeal to others. You can't beat the price!
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020447045?pid=357002
It's not my intention to shill for Midway, this is just where I found it in stock.
That's some pretty warm stuff especially if that velocity is from a 2'' snubby. Ouch.
I know theres another post that has pics of this
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39507-38-Special-Snubby-Ammo-Findings-Thoughts-and-Impressions&p=1053568&viewfull=1#post1053568
“I've shot a number of deer with Remington WCs. From a 642 they "stick" when they hit the skull, leave a large entry wound, don't exit, and pulp the brain. Instant lights out. On double lung shots I've noted that on the entry side WCs through a rib (deer ribs are much large and more robust that people ribs for anyone who hasn't seen one) make a splintered hole large than the bullet, will penetrate all the way through, have enough energy to penetrate the rib on the far side and get stuck under the skin. JHPs that I've made similar shots with, like Critical Defense, tend to leave a bullet sized clean hole in the rib on the entry side, like it's been hit with a drill bit.
I've seen very, very few JHPs actually expand from a snub. Even one's designed for that use. Many old school loads, such as the 110gr +P+, that do expand fail to penetrate nearly enough for my comfort.”
Just to be clear the main reason I posted this was because of the link in th OP. When you look at the penetration of 38 loads from a 2” barrel nothing really penetrates like a wadcutter unless you go to +p velocities. Another observation was how poorly most .38 loads from a 2” perform. It helped me really see it with all the data in one chart.
I know theres another post that has pics of this
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39507-38-Special-Snubby-Ammo-Findings-Thoughts-and-Impressions&p=1053568&viewfull=1#post1053568
“I've shot a number of deer with Remington WCs. From a 642 they "stick" when they hit the skull, leave a large entry wound, don't exit, and pulp the brain. Instant lights out. On double lung shots I've noted that on the entry side WCs through a rib (deer ribs are much large and more robust that people ribs for anyone who hasn't seen one) make a splintered hole large than the bullet, will penetrate all the way through, have enough energy to penetrate the rib on the far side and get stuck under the skin. JHPs that I've made similar shots with, like Critical Defense, tend to leave a bullet sized clean hole in the rib on the entry side, like it's been hit with a drill bit.
I've seen very, very few JHPs actually expand from a snub. Even one's designed for that use. Many old school loads, such as the 110gr +P+, that do expand fail to penetrate nearly enough for my comfort.”
Just to be clear the main reason I posted this was because of the link in th OP. When you look at the penetration of 38 loads from a 2” barrel nothing really penetrates like a wadcutter unless you go to +p velocities. Another observation was how poorly most .38 loads from a 2” perform. It helped me really see it with all the data in one chart.
I forget if I've tested my HST reloads from a 2" barrel. I get 930fps from a 3" barrel. I need to test them. I tested them for accuracy and they were pretty impressive.
I forget if I've tested my HST reloads from a 2" barrel. I get 930fps from a 3" barrel. I need to test them. I tested them for accuracy and they were pretty impressive.
What caliber?
What caliber?
38 special.
38 special.
Hst micro?
From Federals website
Caliber 38 Special +P
Grain Weight 130
Bullet Style Jacketed Hollow Point
Muzzle Velocity 890
Test Barrel Length In 4-V
Package Quantity 20
Usage Self-Defense
From Lucky Gunner in the OP
93902
Hst micro?
No, I used pulled 9mm 147gr HSTs
No, I used pulled 9mm 147gr HSTs
You are a madman 😁👍
Edited to ask I assume this is not from a J frame
You are a madman 😁👍
Edited to ask I assume this is not from a J frame
Correct. I can't pocket carry.
From a 2" barrel I'd guess probably 850fps so it wouldn't be bad.
Fwiw AR gets pulls in regularly and they typically have coupons that bring the price down to 10cpr.https://americanreloading.com/9mm-38-super-357sig-355-356/4024-9mm-147gr-hst-500ct.html
Correct. I can't pocket carry.
From a 2" barrel I'd guess probably 850fps so it wouldn't be bad.
Fwiw AR gets pulls in regularly and they typically have coupons that bring the price down to 10cpr.https://americanreloading.com/9mm-38-super-357sig-355-356/4024-9mm-147gr-hst-500ct.html
Thats going to be a stout load out of a jframe. I just picked up a a Wiley Clapp 2” its my only non j frame revolver. Maybe in that platform it would be tolerable.
Velo Dog
09-04-2022, 12:50 PM
Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutter 148gr (GM38A) averaged 14.8 and 16 inches in real 10% gel
https://brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html
Wayne Dobbs
09-04-2022, 01:06 PM
FWIW, there are some very solid revolver trainers and users in my circle that are working on a factory .38 WC carry load that is easier to shoot, accurate, available and that performs to a solid standard. Hoping that their efforts bear fruit.
revchuck38
09-04-2022, 01:11 PM
FWIW, there are some very solid revolver trainers and users in my circle that are working on a factory .38 WC carry load that is easier to shoot, accurate, available and that performs to a solid standard. Hoping that their efforts bear fruit.
A re-birth of the old “full charge” load would be about right IMO, using a coated or plated bullet to reduce smoke.
okie john
09-04-2022, 01:48 PM
I really like the Precision One FMJ 148s but I can’t help but wonder if the jacket affects cutting ability to a notable degree?
Probably a lot cleaner and easier to handle in loading.
Okie John
FWIW, there are some very solid revolver trainers and users in my circle that are working on a factory .38 WC carry load that is easier to shoot, accurate, available and that performs to a solid standard. Hoping that their efforts bear fruit.
“Easier to shoot” color me really curious. Hopefully there will be a preorder option for PFers
Jim Watson
09-04-2022, 02:43 PM
BB 150 WC defeats the purpose of using a wad cutter in a lightweight revolver.
Agree. I see the midrange .38 wadcutter as a substitute for the once popular .32 revolver.
The BB is too hot.
What seems needed is the old service wadcutter at 850 fps in 6 inch, less in hideout guns but still more than the target load.
Oh, and fill your speed loader with something with an ogive.
Wayne Dobbs
09-04-2022, 03:11 PM
Agree. I see the midrange .38 wadcutter as a substitute for the once popular .32 revolver.
The BB is too hot.
What seems needed is the old service wadcutter at 850 fps in 6 inch, less in hideout guns but still more than the target load.
Oh, and fill your speed loader with something with an ogive.
This is the word! For a reload that meets this spec, use a good 148 DEWC (I like SNS Casting's - https://www.snscasting.com/38-357-148-grain-dewc-red-coated-1000ct/) and load it over 3.5 grains of Bullseye, crimped to the crimp groove. Full credit to Outpost75 for this load and tons of other tech knowledge and wisdom on the .38 Special world.
Outpost75
09-04-2022, 04:02 PM
Chronographed velocities for " full-charge" wadcutter fired from various revolver barrel lengths, and cylinder gaps, selecting test weapons going through Academy gun vault seeking similar 1965-1972'vintage Colts. Several of the "loose" guns here were shot again after setting the barrels back and establishing gap to minimum. CYLINDER GAP IS AS IMPORTANT AS BARREL LENGTH!
Saeco #348 146-grain DEWC, Speer once-fired .38 Special case, CCI 500 , 3.5 grains. Bullseye, OAL 1.24"
Colt 2" Detective Special with 0.008" cylinder gap 758 fps, 19 SD
Colt 3" Detective Special with 0.006" cylinder gap 852 fps, 11Sd
Colt 3" Detective Special set back to 0.003" cylinder gap 879 fps, 18 Sd
Colt 4" Police Positive .38 Special set back to 0.004" cylinder gap 867 fps, 10Sd
Colt 4" Police Positive .38 Special before set back at 0.008" cylinder gap 829 fps, 11Sd
Colt 4" Official Police .38 Special 1972 factory rebuild with 0.003" cylinder gap 885 fps. 10 Sd
Colt 6" Official Police .38 Special 1969 factory rebuildwith 0.003" cylinder gap 910 fps, 7 SD
Marlin 1894C .357 carbine with 18-1/2" barrel 1053 fps, 9 Sd
Good approximation for standard-pressure .38 Special with lead bullets loaded with fast burning powders similar to Bullseye is to expect a Delta-V of about 10 fps for each 0.001" change in barrel-cylinder gap from Mean Assembly Tolerance.
Velocity loss is dramatic in S&W J-frames having shorter, actual 1-7/8" barrela, which are commonly shipped today with B-C gaps over 0.008". Unfortunately the S&W factory will not set back a barrel anymore and no longer keeps "+" cylinders in customer service, so if your new Scandium pocket rocket meets factory spec now allowed to be 0.010", rather than being tagged "open front gage" you need to learn to love it like it is.
Agree. I see the midrange .38 wadcutter as a substitute for the once popular .32 revolver.
The BB is too hot.
What seems needed is the old service wadcutter at 850 fps in 6 inch, less in hideout guns but still more than the target load.
Oh, and fill your speed loader with something with an ogive.
4grs w231 under 148gr wc from rimrock gets me 840fps from a 3" m10
Wayne Dobbs
09-05-2022, 10:43 AM
4grs w231 under 148gr wc from rimrock gets me 840fps from a 3" m10
I've also used 4.0 231/HP-38 for anything cast/swaged/plated 148 - 160 grains in .38 Special with excellent results. Lot to lot variations of that powder has me using Bullseye now. It's a very well thought out, consistent performer.
I've also used 4.0 231/HP-38 for anything cast/swaged/plated 148 - 160 grains in .38 Special with excellent results. Lot to lot variations of that powder has me using Bullseye now. It's a very well thought out, consistent performer.
Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for bullseye when I'm done with this 4lbs.
Brian T
09-05-2022, 12:48 PM
FWIW, there are some very solid revolver trainers and users in my circle that are working on a factory .38 WC carry load that is easier to shoot, accurate, available and that performs to a solid standard. Hoping that their efforts bear fruit.
Look forward to it. Has anyone tried to revive Jim Cirillo's wadcutter, the one that was basically a FMJ wadcutter?
Paul Blackburn
09-05-2022, 01:47 PM
FWIW, there are some very solid revolver trainers and users in my circle that are working on a factory .38 WC carry load that is easier to shoot, accurate, available and that performs to a solid standard. Hoping that their efforts bear fruit.
Better than this: https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/gold-medal/gold-medal-handgun/11-GM38A.html
This is the gold standard of .38 WV IMO
Jim Watson
09-05-2022, 03:43 PM
Look forward to it. Has anyone tried to revive Jim Cirillo's wadcutter, the one that was basically a FMJ wadcutter?
A friend loaded some of the Rainier plated wadcutters, accuracy was dismal.
I hear that other brands are better but have not tried any.
Agree. I see the midrange .38 wadcutter as a substitute for the once popular .32 revolver.
The BB is too hot.
What seems needed is the old service wadcutter at 850 fps in 6 inch, less in hideout guns but still more than the target load.
Oh, and fill your speed loader with something with an ogive.
Im at a loss as to why more than 710 fps is needed. Could you explain this?
Im at a loss as to why more than 710 fps is needed. Could you explain this?
Hard targets like cars or bone?
revchuck38
09-05-2022, 05:16 PM
Better than this: https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/gold-medal/gold-medal-handgun/11-GM38A.html
This is the gold standard of .38 WV IMO
They're excellent, but availability has always been spotty and they're over-engineered for a defensive load. They're expensive too - a couple of months back I bought a couple of boxes of .38 Ranger Bonded hollowpoints and they were $35/box of 50 as opposed to $50/box for GMM. Federal could produce a solid-base swaged wadcutter load with still-good QC and sell them for the same price as their AE RNL load, and it would perform as well as the GMM load for all practical purposes in a snubby.
Im at a loss as to why more than 710 fps is needed. Could you explain this?
IME, factory wadcutter loads run ~630-640 fps from a snubby.
Exiledviking
09-05-2022, 05:42 PM
I don't know if these apply, but there's a listing for PPU 148 gr wadcutters on another forum. The velocity is higher at ~804 fps. In case someone is looking. Around $30 per 50 plus shipping.
Velo Dog
09-05-2022, 06:06 PM
I don't know if these apply, but there's a listing for PPU 148 gr wadcutters on another forum. The velocity is higher at ~804 fps.
That velocity is from a 196mm or 7.717" barrel
https://www.prvipartizan.com/download/PPU_2018.pdf
I have 2 cans of wadcutters for my kids for when they move out. Maybe they can sell them and buy a house.
93959
Plus some leather and speed loaders of course
93960
Hard targets like cars or bone?
Its been posted that remington wc which are 710fps penetrated a deer going through the rib on both sides and fully penetrated and exited the skull. Also right at 16” on the gel test.
I dont know about cars. Does a wadcutter penetrate a car door or window?
What do you get for an extra 140 fps.
Im asking because I carry J frames, if there is a benefit Id like to know what it is.
Velo Dog
09-05-2022, 07:49 PM
Does a wadcutter penetrate a car door or window?
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30080-Wadcutters-vs-Hollowpoints-for-snubnose-carry/page2
DocGKR: "It is all about the hardness of the lead and the launch velocity when confronting glass. Harder lead WC's at 744 fps went 14"; softer lead WC's at 651 fps only went 9". Next time we gel test, I'll see if we can shoot some current factory WC's through some auto windshield glass."
Its been posted that remington wc which are 710fps penetrated a deer going through the rib on both sides and fully penetrated and exited the skull. Also right at 16” on the gel test.
I dont know about cars. Does a wadcutter penetrate a car door or window?
What do you get for an extra 140 fps.
Im asking because I carry J frames, if there is a benefit Id like to know what it is.
Deer ribs aren't that tough. I've had deer shoulder's stop 9mm premium defensive ammo.
I've shot coyotes in their shoulders with .38s with a 158@900 fps and .357 with a 158@1200fps. The difference in their reaction and damage is night and day.
I'm not saying that a 158 swc@900fos is ineffective. Actually it's very effective but push it faster and it's soooo much better.
Half Moon
09-05-2022, 08:14 PM
I don't know if these apply, but there's a listing for PPU 148 gr wadcutters on another forum. The velocity is higher at ~804 fps. In case someone is looking. Around $30 per 50 plus shipping.
Personal experience, a few years back, says to avoid these hard. I'm assuming it's from soft lead (I could score it with a thumbnail) but across multiple revolvers (so not cylinder throats of just a single revolver) these leaded the bores to hell and back. Also, very smoky and dirty. PPU can make good ammo. In .32 ACP they and the Fiocchi are the favorite loads of of our Colt 1903's and while I prefer the Fiocchi wouldn't hesitate to buy more PPU. The .38 Special wadcutters though are just not a good choice. Granted that was 3 to 4 year ago but doubt they've changed.
Deer ribs aren't that tough. I've had deer shoulder's stop 9mm premium defensive ammo.
I've shot coyotes in their shoulders with .38s with a 158@900 fps and .357 with a 158@1200fps. The difference in their reaction and damage is night and day.
I'm not saying that a 158 swc@900fos is ineffective. Actually it's very effective but push it faster and it's soooo much better.
Interesting. Ive only shot 148s i really before this thread never realized there were so many different styles of lead bullets.
When starting this thread I was really thinking more along the lines of what most people carry every day which I assumed was J frames or LCRs. When I heard double ended wad cutters or full range or service wadcutters these are all new terms to me. Maybe because Im not a reloader or hunter. I always assumed and understood when talking wadcutters out of a pocket revolver 148s at 700 +~ was the RX. Low recoil for faster follow up, ample penetration with no or minimal pass through. Thats why I asked what do you gain from 850 vs 710. The velocities you are talking about are way above that.
When you mentioned shooting game at 900 and 1200 fps do you recover the bullets or do they pass completely through?
ETA Actually, reading all this info has got me considering buying a reloader.
There's a couple different points. Shoot ability. I don't shoot j frames so I can shoot warmer loads in k frames without worrying about it.
Effectiveness, .38s kill pretty well and bullets exit. .357s kill better. Drop stuff faster and exit with more meat and bone exiting with the bullet.
I've only been able to compare effectiveness between .38s and .357s on coyotes down to grouse.
There's a couple different points. Shoot ability. I don't shoot j frames so I can shoot warmer loads in k frames without worrying about it.
Effectiveness, .38s kill pretty well and bullets exit. .357s kill better. Drop stuff faster and exit with more meat and bone exiting with the bullet.
I've only been able to compare effectiveness between .38s and .357s on coyotes down to grouse.
Thanks for all the posting regarding reloading and game shooting. Ive read others posting about similar things here in the past but for some reason this time its really sparked my interest. Maybe its because I recently purchased a used SP101, my first revolver outside of a J frame and Precision Delta not having wadcutters for such a long time Im going to have to do something. $50 a box of wadcutters is not sustainable for me.
JAH 3rd
09-06-2022, 08:25 AM
I have 2 cans of wadcutters for my kids for when they move out. Maybe they can sell them and buy a house.
93959
Plus some leather and speed loaders of course
93960
Will you adopt me?...........I'll be a grand dad.......I definitely, age wise, qualify. Glad you are looking out for your kids.
Wayne Dobbs
09-06-2022, 09:22 AM
Better than this: https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/gold-medal/gold-medal-handgun/11-GM38A.html
This is the gold standard of .38 WV IMO
Paul,
Federal GMM is likely the most accurate, highest quality .38 Special wadcutter load out there. It's also stupid expensive, hard to acquire and a bit under velocity for duty purposes. This project is to produce a duty level, high quality, fairly priced and available snub revolver load for serious carry. Hopefully, it comes to fruition.
4given
09-06-2022, 10:12 AM
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30080-Wadcutters-vs-Hollowpoints-for-snubnose-carry/page2
DocGKR: "It is all about the hardness of the lead and the launch velocity when confronting glass. Harder lead WC's at 744 fps went 14"; softer lead WC's at 651 fps only went 9". Next time we gel test, I'll see if we can shoot some current factory WC's through some auto windshield glass."
I have been using the DoubleTap 148 grain full wadcutter match ammo in my snubbies. It features a HARDCAST bullet doing 800 FPS out of a 4" bbl and 740 FPS from a 2" bbl. Recoil is not bad and I get decent accuracy.
I am by no means an expert but I think a hardcast might cut a little better as the edge would stay sharp.
OlongJohnson
09-06-2022, 10:58 AM
Thanks for all the posting regarding reloading and game shooting. Ive read others posting about similar things here in the past but for some reason this time its really sparked my interest. Maybe its because I recently purchased a used SP101, my first revolver outside of a J frame and Precision Delta not having wadcutters for such a long time Im going to have to do something. $50 a box of wadcutters is not sustainable for me.
I've had severe leading with PD wadcutters. I believe it was due to the wadcutters being .357 (which would have been great in all those K frames I sold that had .357+ throats) and the 640-1 having .359 and the GP100 having .3585 throats.
I have put some FGMM wadcutters through my M&P 340 with no noticeable leading so far. They also hit to POA, so I was happy.
Would be interested in a solid copper wadcutter for maintaining crisp edges and to eliminate handling lead. Should be relatively cheap to machine with little waste material.
the Schwartz
09-06-2022, 12:26 PM
Paul,
Federal GMM is likely the most accurate, highest quality .38 Special wadcutter load out there. It's also stupid expensive, hard to acquire and a bit under velocity for duty purposes. This project is to produce a duty level, high quality, fairly priced and available snub revolver load for serious carry. Hopefully, it comes to fruition.
Gee, Wayne, you don't like having to take out a second mortgage to buy the Fed GMM? It's like the pride of owning an expensive car. Of course, you can drive the car. However, once the ammo is gone... well....:rolleyes:
In all seriousness, I hope that someone steps up and offers a less expensive option for those of us who want a decent quality WC for our snub guns.
FWIW, there are some very solid revolver trainers and users in my circle that are working on a factory .38 WC carry load that is easier to shoot, accurate, available and that performs to a solid standard. Hoping that their efforts bear fruit.
Can you share any details? What does solid standard equal?
I've had severe leading with PD wadcutters. I believe it was due to the wadcutters being .357 (which would have been great in all those K frames I sold that had .357+ throats) and the 640-1 having .359 and the GP100 having .3585 throats.
I have put some FGMM wadcutters through my M&P 340 with no noticeable leading so far. They also hit to POA, so I was happy.
Would be interested in a solid copper wadcutter for maintaining crisp edges and to eliminate handling lead. Should be relatively cheap to machine with little waste material.
Are you talking a solid bullet? No hollow base?
revchuck38
09-06-2022, 12:50 PM
I'm not Wayne, but I'd like to see an addition to Federal's American Eagle line using a solid-base wadcutter that runs ~750 fps from a snubby, using a low-flash/low-residue powder and low-smoke lube. This would put it in the standard (non-+P) .38 Special pressure level.
OlongJohnson
09-06-2022, 12:52 PM
Are you talking a solid bullet? No hollow base?
Yes, a copper DEWC.
RevolverRob
09-06-2022, 02:01 PM
Yes, a copper DEWC.
Missouri Bullet Company has a Hi-Tek Poly coated 148-grain DEWC - https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=236&category=5&secondary=19&keywords=
I run the lead version of this one over 3.2gr of VV N330 from a J-Frame/D-Frame it's basically perfect. I don't have a chrono, but it's probably about 725fps from a 2" D. At that speed no issues with leading, much faster and there probably would be. The Hi-Tek should help with that.
I'd love to see Lehigh bring out the Extreme Cavitator in .357-.358". That bullet @800fps will likely be nigh perfect for the snubs.
Reminds me, I need to order some in .311" for the .32NAA.
Federal showed a Syntec wadcutter load a couple of SHOT Shows ago, but I guess it never made it to production. Too bad as it may have been an ideal load.
Paul Blackburn
09-06-2022, 04:59 PM
Paul,
Federal GMM is likely the most accurate, highest quality .38 Special wadcutter load out there. It's also stupid expensive, hard to acquire and a bit under velocity for duty purposes. This project is to produce a duty level, high quality, fairly priced and available snub revolver load for serious carry. Hopefully, it comes to fruition.
Thanks for the reply! I hope so too.
Any idea how much more velocity, approximately? Thats what makes GMM such a joy to shoot!
Chuck Whitlock
10-21-2022, 06:04 PM
https://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-148gr-lead-wadcutter-new/
I don't know if this is what Wayne was talking about. I think I saw them mentioned by Mark Fricke on some social media group or other.
I ordered and received 100 rounds. Haven't shot them yet.
Mike C
10-21-2022, 06:12 PM
Not affiliated with, FWIW Precision One out of Charleston, SC makes some 148gr copper plated wadcutters that shoot awesome. Soft and accurate. Might be the ticket for those in need of some.
revchuck38
10-21-2022, 06:48 PM
https://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-148gr-lead-wadcutter-new/
I don't know if this is what Wayne was talking about. I think I saw them mentioned by Mark Fricke on some social media group or other.
I ordered and received 100 rounds. Haven't shot them yet.
They look pretty much like standard swaged wadcutters, can't tell if they're solid or hollow-base. 750 fps is about normal velocity from a 6" barrel. If that velocity is from a 4" or shorter barrel, they'd sure pique my interest. ;)
Just the fact that they're available is a good thing.
Chuck Whitlock
10-21-2022, 08:10 PM
Not affiliated with, FWIW Precision One out of Charleston, SC makes some 148gr copper plated wadcutters that shoot awesome. Soft and accurate. Might be the ticket for those in need of some.
https://www.outdoorlimited.com/handgun-ammo/38-special/precision-one-38-special-ammunition-148-grain-copper-plated-wadcutter-50-rounds/
I was looking at that, too. And $2 cheaper than the GA. I'm glad to see that some here have had good luck with it. No worries about leading is a plus.
Mike C
10-22-2022, 06:52 PM
https://www.outdoorlimited.com/handgun-ammo/38-special/precision-one-38-special-ammunition-148-grain-copper-plated-wadcutter-50-rounds/
I was looking at that, too. And $2 cheaper than the GA. I'm glad to see that some here have had good luck with it. No worries about leading is a plus.
Cheaper off Precision One's website directly from them. $125 for a pack of 250 and $25.99 for a box of 50.
mtnbkr
10-24-2022, 08:56 AM
https://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-148gr-lead-wadcutter-new/
I don't know if this is what Wayne was talking about. I think I saw them mentioned by Mark Fricke on some social media group or other.
I ordered and received 100 rounds. Haven't shot them yet.
I bought a few hundred of those for a revolver class that was supposed to take place in 2020. Glad it didn't because the GA wadcutters shot so low at 25yds they were useless (same gun with my own wadcutters shot to POA). This was in a fixed sight snubnose. They were better, but still low, out of a 6" gun. I never chrono'd them, but based on how they shot in terms of POI and recoil, I'd wager they were in the 600s.
That wasn't the first time I was disappointed with GA ammo, but it'll be the last.
Chris
Chuck Whitlock
10-24-2022, 12:31 PM
I bought a few hundred of those for a revolver class that was supposed to take place in 2020. Glad it didn't because the GA wadcutters shot so low at 25yds they were useless (same gun with my own wadcutters shot to POA). This was in a fixed sight snubnose. They were better, but still low, out of a 6" gun. I never chrono'd them, but based on how they shot in terms of POI and recoil, I'd wager they were in the 600s.
That wasn't the first time I was disappointed with GA ammo, but it'll be the last.
That's disappointing. I'll have to verify how these shoot.
https://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-148gr-lead-wadcutter-new/
I don't know if this is what Wayne was talking about. I think I saw them mentioned by Mark Fricke on some social media group or other.
I ordered and received 100 rounds. Haven't shot them yet.
That 750 fps is out of a 6” barrel 675 out of a 2”. They have another round that does 730 out of a 2”. Its not on their website Im waiting on them to provide some info, when I get it Ill post it here.
Chuck Whitlock
10-24-2022, 01:35 PM
How does that compare to Fiocchi? Fiocchi hits close to the sights for me.
That wasn't the first time I was disappointed with GA ammo, but it'll be the last.
Chris
I have that T shirt! Not for 10 cents a round.
Re "everything else"
If I view a 2" .38 a lot like I do a .380 which is to use ammo get the most penetration from the less than robust horsepower then . . .
I might go with the available and more affordable Lawman 158 grain FMJ flat point. I have read the scientific posts here how a flat point doesn't cut exactly like a WC but one has to be precise with a 5 shot snubbie eh? IDK maybe that's loony.
But with the chase to find the right full wadcutters . . .
That 750 fps is out of a 6” barrel 675 out of a 2”. They have another round that does 730 out of a 2”. Its not on their website Im waiting on them to provide some info, when I get it Ill post it here.
Heres the reply.
“This is new ammunition, loaded with a specially selected, 148 grain, hollow base wadcutter, using a powder that is less position sensitive than most. We developed a special load which will consistently produce around 750 FPS in a snub nosed revolver, without damaging the skirt or creating a leading issue. We sell it in boxes of 20 rounds for $20
Our first production run was very small, about a thousand rounds for testing and evaluation. We have approximately 500 rounds available for sale after testing for function, velocity, accuracy and penetration.
I do have some test results that were done by a third party, I will be happy to share them with you.
The test gun used for the gelatin testing was a S&W mod 642 with a 1 7/8” barrel. The testing was done in Arizona at a higher altitude, so the velocities he recorded are slightly higher than those we tested here at our lab by about 8 or 9 FPS.
His mean average was 758 and ours was 749. Obviously, the individual revolver can make a difference as well. According to his testing, there is a marked improvement in the gelatin tests, when the velocity of the hollow base wadcutter is above 700 FPS.
We fired several different wadcutter loads through our 642 here and found that factory wadcutters, including our standard wadcutter, run from about 600 to 675 FPS, when fired from a 1 7/8” barrel revolver.
TEST RESULTS at 91 degrees Fahrenheit, 5000 Ft above sea level
Bare Gelatin
1st Shot 748 FPS 17 3/8” Penetration
2nd Shot 776 FPS 17 ˝” Penetration
3rd Shot 742 FPS 17 ˝” Penetration
4th Shot 775 FPS 18 ˝” Penetration
All 4 recovered bullets expanded to approximately 40 cal., which surprised me. I asked for an exact measurement, and he promised he would do so, but he has been on an extended vacation and has not done so yet.
Gelatin with 4 layers denim
1st Shot 748 FPS 15 ˝” Penetration
We are working on the packaging of the product now and should be ready to ship the ammo by Friday or Monday.
The point of aim and point of impact can vary a good bit in the snub guns, we have shot this load through about 12 different snub guns and find it to be entirely acceptable. I really like this load and I think you will to.
Thank you for thinking of us with your ammunition needs!”
Lester Polfus
10-25-2022, 02:59 PM
Re "everything else"
If I view a 2" .38 a lot like I do a .380 which is to use ammo get the most penetration from the less than robust horsepower then . . .
I might go with the available and more affordable Lawman 158 grain FMJ flat point. I have read the scientific posts here how a flat point doesn't cut exactly like a WC but one has to be precise with a 5 shot snubbie eh? IDK maybe that's loony.
But with the chase to find the right full wadcutters . . .
If a person wanted to carry wadcutters in their J frame, and those 158 grain Lawman loads in a speedstrip or a speedloader, I'd have a hard time arguing with that logic. The Lawman load is much easier to stuff into a chamber than a full wadcutter.
Right now I'm carrying 130 grain Hydrashok Deep +P. It's about the best expansion/penetration performance you can expect out of a 2" .38, but much like the Gold Dot Short Barrel load, it's only sporadically available, and costs an arm and a leg when it is. I've often thought I might be better off stacking deep with wadcutters and 158 grain flatpoint loads for my J-frame applications.
Heres the reply.
“This is new ammunition, loaded with a specially selected, 148 grain, hollow base wadcutter, using a powder that is less position sensitive than most. We developed a special load which will consistently produce around 750 FPS in a snub nosed revolver, without damaging the skirt or creating a leading issue. We sell it in boxes of 20 rounds for $20
Our first production run was very small, about a thousand rounds for testing and evaluation. We have approximately 500 rounds available for sale after testing for function, velocity, accuracy and penetration.
I do have some test results that were done by a third party, I will be happy to share them with you.
The test gun used for the gelatin testing was a S&W mod 642 with a 1 7/8” barrel. The testing was done in Arizona at a higher altitude, so the velocities he recorded are slightly higher than those we tested here at our lab by about 8 or 9 FPS.
His mean average was 758 and ours was 749. Obviously, the individual revolver can make a difference as well. According to his testing, there is a marked improvement in the gelatin tests, when the velocity of the hollow base wadcutter is above 700 FPS.
We fired several different wadcutter loads through our 642 here and found that factory wadcutters, including our standard wadcutter, run from about 600 to 675 FPS, when fired from a 1 7/8” barrel revolver.
TEST RESULTS at 91 degrees Fahrenheit, 5000 Ft above sea level
Bare Gelatin
1st Shot 748 FPS 17 3/8” Penetration
2nd Shot 776 FPS 17 ˝” Penetration
3rd Shot 742 FPS 17 ˝” Penetration
4th Shot 775 FPS 18 ˝” Penetration
All 4 recovered bullets expanded to approximately 40 cal., which surprised me. I asked for an exact measurement, and he promised he would do so, but he has been on an extended vacation and has not done so yet.
Gelatin with 4 layers denim
1st Shot 748 FPS 15 ˝” Penetration
We are working on the packaging of the product now and should be ready to ship the ammo by Friday or Monday.
The point of aim and point of impact can vary a good bit in the snub guns, we have shot this load through about 12 different snub guns and find it to be entirely acceptable. I really like this load and I think you will to.
Thank you for thinking of us with your ammunition needs!”
Just received a price correction email
“Please note, I was mistaken on the pricing I quoted you earlier. That was wholesale pricing for larger quantities that I was looking at. The per box price is $24.”
Thank you and I am sorry for the mix up.”
Another clarification: the $20 per box is for 2000 rounds.
Spartan1980
10-25-2022, 04:51 PM
I'll pick up a couple of boxes of Federal when I find some. In the meantime I'm loading my own for training.
Has anyone used the ZERO 147HBWC? Hornady's are available and work very well but ZERO are considerably less $.
revchuck38
10-25-2022, 05:09 PM
I'll pick up a couple of boxes of Federal when I find some. In the meantime I'm loading my own for training.
Has anyone used the ZERO 147HBWC? Hornady's are available and work very well but ZERO are considerably less $.
I've used Zero's 148-grain solid-base wadcutters and their 158-grain RNLs. They worked well for me, and I wouldn't hesitate to use their HBWCs. It's been more than ten years, though. Be advised that they use a soft lube that's kinda sticky on your fingers. I ran the 158s at ~830 fps and they didn't lead, so the combination of lube, sizing, and bullet hardness was good.
Willard
10-25-2022, 07:38 PM
Looky at what else I found. It's actually hotter than what I'd prefer, but perhaps it might appeal to others. You can't beat the price!
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020447045?pid=357002
It's not my intention to shill for Midway, this is just where I found it in stock.
Thanks. Picked up a few boxes for the stash. Cheaper than the last order.
revchuck38
11-01-2022, 03:03 PM
This is the recent production stuff. Five rounds from my M49 no-dash, the average velocity was 689 fps, ES was 20, and SD was seven. This is about 50 fps faster than the old box I chronoed. It hits right at POA, too. :)
LtDave
11-02-2022, 12:23 PM
How come.
I have had great results with Remington and Federal 158 gr standard velocity semi wadcutters in my 2" guns. Mild recoil, shoots to sights and easier to load than the wadcutters. If you can't find Remington or Federal, Privi Partizan has a nice looking alternative.
Another round I like is the Norma 158 grain FMJ flat point. Loaded in Hungary I think. Same bullet was loaded by RWS.
96507
How come.
I have had great results with Remington and Federal 158 gr standard velocity semi wadcutters in my 2" guns. Mild recoil, shoots to sights and easier to load than the wadcutters. If you can't find Remington or Federal, Privi Partizan has a nice looking alternative.
Another round I like is the Norma 158 grain FMJ flat point. Loaded in Hungary I think. Same bullet was loaded by RWS.]
I know jetfire has in the past talked about carrying plain jane SWC. It's gonna penetrate a bit more, probably, so you might want to keep that in mind.... I'd not sweat it much, if that's what I had available. Flat point FMJ would work about the same, I'd think.
the Schwartz
11-02-2022, 02:00 PM
How come.
I have had great results with Remington and Federal 158 gr standard velocity semi wadcutters in my 2" guns. Mild recoil, shoots to sights and easier to load than the wadcutters. If you can't find Remington or Federal, Privi Partizan has a nice looking alternative.
Another round I like is the Norma 158 grain FMJ flat point. Loaded in Hungary I think. Same bullet was loaded by RWS.
96507
The Magtech .38 Special 158-grain FMJFN is also a good choice for those looking for a semi-wadcutter profile with mild recoil from a 2'' snubbie.
https://magtechammunition.com/products/ammunition/38-spl-158gr-fmj-flat/
Navin Johnson
11-02-2022, 02:12 PM
The Magtech .38 Special 158-grain FMJFN is also a good choice for those looking for a semi-wadcutter profile with mild recoil from a 2'' snubbie.
https://magtechammunition.com/products/ammunition/38-spl-158gr-fmj-flat/
Would that type of profile cut/crush more than a FMJRN?
We have discussed before that in a semi-auto friendly profile that difference between FMJ and FMJFP is minimal if any.
jetfire
11-02-2022, 02:32 PM
I know jetfire has in the past talked about carrying plain jane SWC. It's gonna penetrate a bit more, probably, so you might want to keep that in mind.... I'd not sweat it much, if that's what I had available. Flat point FMJ would work about the same, I'd think.
Full wadcutters, not semi-wadcutters. I mean I have carried SWC, but the full wadcutter is the preferred bullet profile because it's flat across the nose, has very mild recoil, and generally hits to the sights on a lot of fixed sight revolvers.
When I'm selecting a defensive round for a fixed sight revolver, the very first priority, above anything else is "does this hit behind the front sight"
the Schwartz
11-02-2022, 03:27 PM
Would that type of profile cut/crush more than a FMJRN?
We have discussed before that in a semi-auto friendly profile that difference between FMJ and FMJFP is minimal if any.
The flat nose would crush slightly less than the round nose profile.
Between the two (non-deforming flat nose & round nose profiles), there's a minimal difference in permanent crush cavity.
Navin Johnson
11-02-2022, 03:50 PM
The flat nose would crush slightly less than the round nose profile.
Between the two (non-deforming flat nose & round nose profiles), there's a minimal difference in permanent crush cavity.
Guess I’m curious why people would carry those for reloads instead of a quality jacketed hollow point designed for a short barrel. I carry wadcutters in my J frames and carry an appropriate JHP designed for a short barrel that is much easier to load as my reloads.
Unless JHP’s weren’t available I can’t think of a reason to carry a SWC as a back up or reload for a 2 inch barrel lightweight gun
jetfire
11-02-2022, 04:00 PM
Unless JHP’s weren’t available I can’t think of a reason to carry a SWC as a back up or reload for a 2 inch barrel lightweight gun
Most JHP won't expand out of 2 inch guns, which is why smart guys like Darryl, Chuck, etc all recommend full wadcutters as a primary round in the gun. Then since you're not getting expansion, I know Chuck and I both carry round nose FMJ as a reload because the bullet profile is less likely to foul on the cylinder than SWC or full wadcutters.
Navin Johnson
11-02-2022, 04:53 PM
Most JHP won't expand out of 2 inch guns, which is why smart guys like Darryl, Chuck, etc all recommend full wadcutters as a primary round in the gun. Then since you're not getting expansion, I know Chuck and I both carry round nose FMJ as a reload because the bullet profile is less likely to foul on the cylinder than SWC or full wadcutters.
I am assuming by foul you mean hang up while trying to insert them into the cylinder. Critical defense loads very well.
I usually carry J frames in pairs though…..
I regularly carry swc. In .38, .357, and .45acp
the Schwartz
11-02-2022, 05:35 PM
Guess I’m curious why people would carry those for reloads instead of a quality jacketed hollow point designed for a short barrel. I carry wadcutters in my J frames and carry an appropriate JHP designed for a short barrel that is much easier to load as my reloads.
Unless JHP’s weren’t available I can’t think of a reason to carry a SWC as a back up or reload for a 2 inch barrel lightweight gun
When it comes to full- and semi-wadcutters in snubs, it's really a matter of personal preference.
The difference between the two in terms of actual performance is negligible; what matters most is what you hit.
The JHPs designed for short barrels are OK up to a certain point.
I'd want to confirm expansion from a 2'' barrel before loading them up. If they don't expand, why waste the extra expense on what will behave as an FMJRN?
jetfire
11-02-2022, 06:23 PM
I am assuming by foul you mean hang up while trying to insert them into the cylinder. Critical defense loads very well.
I usually carry J frames in pairs though…..
Yeah, foul in this case means “hang up” on the reload. And actually Critical Defense and Critical Duty do load very well. I used Critical Defense as match ammo to finish second repeatedly at IDPA Nationals over the years
Full wadcutters, not semi-wadcutters. I mean I have carried SWC, but the full wadcutter is the preferred bullet profile because it's flat across the nose, has very mild recoil, and generally hits to the sights on a lot of fixed sight revolvers.
When I'm selecting a defensive round for a fixed sight revolver, the very first priority, above anything else is "does this hit behind the front sight"
This was a bit farther back in the dark ages: https://www.gunnuts.net/2013/10/08/quick-photo-winter-carry/ I vaguely remember you talking about carrying the Federal standard pressure SWC load as well. I recall some discussion here around that time, IIRC, about the suitability of SWC vs everything else (sound familiar?:D).
For sure in a fixed sight gun, having rounds hit close to the sights is important. I'm lucky that my 442 seems to shoot both wadcutter loads and 130/135gr JHP loads mostly to the sights, Though I did send it back to S&W at one point because it was shooting pretty far left of the sights with everything. I normally carry it with 135gr Gold Dot these days, but if FGMM ever comes back down to $20-25/50rds, I'll probably snag a few hundred rounds for carry. That should be a lifetime supply. I'll still practice with my own poly coated wadcutter reloads.
I pretty much suck at shooting a J-frame, as I just don't dedicate the time I should. 9mm Glocks are my 90% solution, but there are certain notches that the J still fills for me, and working a double action revolver trigger has meaningful impact on how well I shoot my Glocks. I need to figure out why I'm pulling shots right with the J, while I'm usually pulling low left with the Glocks. This was firing 5 rounds per string using a quicker pace at 7 yards, using irons only ( no laser):
https://i.imgur.com/7fDEc6eh.jpg
6 ring? WTF!? Nice clean holes though. :cool:
jetfire
11-03-2022, 07:04 AM
This was a bit farther back in the dark ages: https://www.gunnuts.net/2013/10/08/quick-photo-winter-carry/ I vaguely remember you talking about carrying the Federal standard pressure SWC load as well. I recall some discussion here around that time, IIRC, about the suitability of SWC vs everything else (sound familiar?:D).
For sure in a fixed sight gun, having rounds hit close to the sights is important. I'm lucky that my 442 seems to shoot both wadcutter loads and 130/135gr JHP loads mostly to the sights, Though I did send it back to S&W at one point because it was shooting pretty far left of the sights with everything. I normally carry it with 135gr Gold Dot these days, but if FGMM ever comes back down to $20-25/50rds, I'll probably snag a few hundred rounds for carry. That should be a lifetime supply. I'll still practice with my own poly coated wadcutter reloads.
I pretty much suck at shooting a J-frame, as I just don't dedicate the time I should. 9mm Glocks are my 90% solution, but there are certain notches that the J still fills for me, and working a double action revolver trigger has meaningful impact on how well I shoot my Glocks. I need to figure out why I'm pulling shots right with the J, while I'm usually pulling low left with the Glocks. This was firing 5 rounds per string using a quicker pace at 7 yards, using irons only ( no laser):
https://i.imgur.com/7fDEc6eh.jpg
6 ring? WTF!? Nice clean holes though. :cool:
That was a long time ago, wow. But yeah, I did carry that doubletap load back when I believed in winter vs summer carry instead of just carrying a round that worked regardless of how heavy the clothing on a potential attacker was. These days my carry ammo is pretty straightforward: 135gr Gold Dots in the 856, 148gr GMM in the 38 LCR, and 85gr JHP in the 32 Mag
PrideAmmunitionComponents
11-03-2022, 10:57 AM
Elmer Keith nailed it with his Keith style SWC. He knew that heavy weight and a flat meplat are guaranteed to kill, but a Wadcutter is not aerodynamic enough for longer shots. I love 'em so much, almost all of our bullets are SWC's and FN's!
jetfire
11-03-2022, 11:30 AM
a Wadcutter is not aerodynamic enough for longer shots.
What's the definition here of a "longer" shot? People use wadcutters all the time out to 50m and I've pushed them accurate to 100
the Schwartz
11-03-2022, 01:57 PM
Elmer Keith nailed it with his Keith style SWC.
He most certainly did. Taking shots at mule deer up to 600 yards out and hitting them is no mean feat. Hell, 300 yards would be spectacular in my opinion.
He knew that heavy weight and a flat meplat are guaranteed to kill...
Yep, the local (Northern Michigan) whitetail deer are doomed when hit by .44 Magnum 300-grain HCSWCs launched from a 7˝'' Ruger SBH.
OlongJohnson
11-03-2022, 07:58 PM
Another round I like is the Norma 158 grain FMJ flat point. Loaded in Hungary I think. Same bullet was loaded by RWS.
Anything that looks the same from the RUAG group is likely to be the same, regardless of which brand it's marketed under. RWS, Norma and Geco have all been used to sell that load. I've only bought Geco, and have see issues with inadequate crimping on multiple different cartridges under the Geco brand. .380, .38 SPL and .357 Mag. Would not buy that in .357 due to concern about pulling, but have a couple cases of it in .38 SPL.
Also, just found this:
RUAG International enters into sales agreement with Beretta Holding on Ammotec (https://www.ruag.com/en/news/ruag-international-enters-sales-agreement-beretta-holding-ammotec)
Surprised we haven't discussed it yet. Or at least I didn't notice.
PrideAmmunitionComponents
11-03-2022, 08:02 PM
What's the definition here of a "longer" shot? People use wadcutters all the time out to 50m and I've pushed them accurate to 100
Nice shooting! He did shoot that deer at 600 yards, so I would say a longer shot is anything between 50 and 600 yards with a pistol. I don't know anyone shooting a pistol to 600 yards lately, but we know he did.
PrideAmmunitionComponents
11-03-2022, 08:08 PM
He most certainly did. Taking shots at mule deer up to 600 yards out and hitting them is no mean feat. Hell, 300 yards would be spectacular in my opinion.
Yep, the local (Northern Michigan) whitetail deer are doomed when hit by .44 Magnum 300-grain HCSWCs launched from a 7˝'' Ruger SBH.
We produce his original .44 Mag 250 gr Keith SWC loading as a NightStalker bullet, and I actually have a few hundred in-stock for once. We also do limited runs in .41 Magnum as well for the other fans of the cartridge! If anyone here is tired of the same ol' crap and is feeling adventurous, we sell sample packs of (25) or (50) for testing out and you WILL have fun with them! I guarantee it!
jetfire
11-03-2022, 09:08 PM
Nice shooting! He did shoot that deer at 600 yards, so I would say a longer shot is anything between 50 and 600 yards with a pistol. I don't know anyone shooting a pistol to 600 yards lately, but we know he did.
That 600 yard shot is about as likely as Paul Bunyan eating 50 pancakes in a minute or John Henry racing a drilling machine.
Which is to say it’s a wonderful part of American folklore that also definitely didn’t happen as recollected. I’m not even saying Elmer didn’t shoot a deer at what was perceived to be an extreme distance either. Im just saying that fish get bigger the further you get from the day you caught it
That 600 yard shot is about as likely as Paul Bunyan eating 50 pancakes in a minute or John Henry racing a drilling machine.
Which is to say it’s a wonderful part of American folklore that also definitely didn’t happen as recollected. I’m not even saying Elmer didn’t shoot a deer at what was perceived to be an extreme distance either. Im just saying that fish get bigger the further you get from the day you caught it
It's not like it was a single shot dropping a deer. He was shooting at a wounded animal and missed half his shots.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Elmer+wasn%27t+lying%3A+The+truth+about+long+range +sixgunning.+(The+Six...-a082533192
I've never shot wadcutters at 100 yards but I've heard, or read, that they started to lose stability between 50-100 yards.
willie
11-03-2022, 09:53 PM
We produce his original .44 Mag 250 gr Keith SWC loading as a NightStalker bullet, and I actually have a few hundred in-stock for once. We also do limited runs in .41 Magnum as well for the other fans of the cartridge! If anyone here is tired of the same ol' crap and is feeling adventurous, we sell sample packs of (25) or (50) for testing out and you WILL have fun with them! I guarantee it!
I'm an old bullet caster and am very interested in your company. Most of us here try to buy from other forum members in the shooting business. Please share information about your outfit, your production equipment, or any other interesting tidbits.
revchuck38
11-04-2022, 04:38 AM
I've never shot wadcutters at 100 yards but I've heard, or read, that they started to lose stability between 50-100 yards.
Same here. I'm not sure if that refers solely to the hollow-base variety or to the solid-base ones too. From what I've read, the preferred rate of twist for custom PPC revolvers was 1-10" to provide increased stability with factory HBWC ammo.
the Schwartz
11-04-2022, 06:30 AM
It's not like it was a single shot dropping a deer. He was shooting at a wounded animal and missed half his shots.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Elmer+wasn%27t+lying%3A+The+truth+about+long+range +sixgunning.+(The+Six...-a082533192
I've never shot wadcutters at 100 yards but I've heard, or read, that they started to lose stability between 50-100 yards.
Thanks for that link. I recall reading that article by Taffin quite awhile back. Hard to believe that it's been 20 years already. Tempus fugit. Always enjoyed the ''Taffin Tests'' and his experiment shows that, even with ''older eyes'', it is possible to ''walk out'' rounds and connect at distances otherwise considered 'extreme'. Hunting as much large and dangerous game as I have in the past, I'd never try anything like that with a animal because that falls outside my definition of ethical hunting practices, but it is nice to know that barrels, wood boards, and other ''shootables'' are not safe at ranges out to 600 yards.
OlongJohnson
11-04-2022, 07:53 AM
We produce his original .44 Mag 250 gr Keith SWC loading as a NightStalker bullet, and I actually have a few hundred in-stock for once. We also do limited runs in .41 Magnum as well for the other fans of the cartridge! If anyone here is tired of the same ol' crap and is feeling adventurous, we sell sample packs of (25) or (50) for testing out and you WILL have fun with them! I guarantee it!
This may have been suggested to you previously. Participation by vendors and technical contribution is welcomed in technical threads, but turning technical threads into commercial promotions as you have started to do in this one is generally not. Many vendors sign up as commercial site supporters and are then welcomed to make all the commercial posts they want in the Supporting Business Forum. They can even get their own sub-forum.
https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?58-Supporting-Business-Forum
Leroy Suggs
11-04-2022, 08:48 AM
This may have been suggested to you previously. Participation by vendors and technical contribution is welcomed in technical threads, but turning technical threads into commercial promotions as you have started to do in this one is generally not. Many vendors sign up as commercial site supporters and are then welcomed to make all the commercial posts they want in the Supporting Business Forum. They can even get their own sub-forum.
https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?58-Supporting-Business-Forum
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.
It's very bad form to pimp your shit like that.
jetfire
11-04-2022, 09:52 AM
It's not like it was a single shot dropping a deer. He was shooting at a wounded animal and missed half his shots.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Elmer+wasn%27t+lying%3A+The+truth+about+long+range +sixgunning.+(The+Six...-a082533192
I've never shot wadcutters at 100 yards but I've heard, or read, that they started to lose stability between 50-100 yards.
The fact that Taffin tells a different version of that story to the one that Petzal tells is what we like to call a clue.
I'm very familiar with the tale of the 600 yard deer shot, Elmer Keith was one of my heroes growing up. But now that I'm all grown up and I've spent a decent amount of time pulling triggers, I get skeptical hippo eyes about some of the "tales of yore."
It's not like it was a single shot dropping a deer. He was shooting at a wounded animal and missed half his shots.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Elmer+wasn%27t+lying%3A+The+truth+about+long+range +sixgunning.+(The+Six...-a082533192
I've never shot wadcutters at 100 yards but I've heard, or read, that they started to lose stability between 50-100 yards.
Malamute is into the long range revolver shooting.
serialsolver
11-04-2022, 11:30 AM
Malamute is into the long range revolver shooting.
lostriver also.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
serialsolver
11-04-2022, 11:30 AM
Malamute is into the long range revolver shooting.
lostriver also.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
feudist
11-04-2022, 12:50 PM
Offered without comment but the usual caveats.
https://youtu.be/xgHuFu5DcZ4
the Schwartz
11-04-2022, 12:51 PM
Malamute is into the long range revolver shooting.
Tinkering with the long-range stuff is always fun.
15 years ago, when I used to do a lot varmint hunting in SE Montana, near the end of our week-long outing, my friends and I would set out 18'' x 36'' pieces of sandstone at one (laser-measured) mile. I used to 'taunt' one friend who shot a McMillan TAC50 that the Remington 40-X .308 that I had was every bit the gun his McMillan was by dialing up the elevation on my Leupold scope to its maximum and matching his hits on the sandstone slabs shot-for-shot.
Although we tried (never successfully) to hit them with our revolvers (.44 Magnums and one .445 Super Mag) we'd always give up and try on rocks much closer (about 500 yards out). Within a cylinder full, we were able to ''dial in'' with the correct ''Kentucky hold over'' and watch the cast lead bullets splash off the rocks.
Unfortunately, there will always be those few who, for whatever reason, refuse to accept the fact that simply because others' experience doesn't ''square'' with theirs doesn't mean that it isn't reality.
Malamute
11-04-2022, 01:56 PM
Malamute is into the long range revolver shooting.
Yes, a bit. As mentioned, Lost River has as well and is more experienced at longer ranges than I am.
I started messing with it in Az in the 80s, Once i understood how keith was describing to use the sights, it became simpler to make consistent hits at longer ranges, in my case, I mostly only shot to around 300 yards with basic carry revolvers and a K-22. The more you do it the more hits you get, first round hits being the most rewarding. The only game I shot at any distance was a coyote at around 200 yards near Flagstaff. First round hit with 4" 29 and medium velocity loads. He got up, and I hit him a couple more times in the 6 rds in the gun. He stopped getting up at that point. Was with a friend at the time, he was a little surprised i was going to try the shot when we saw him. I walked it off going to retrieve him and later looked at it on google earth, it checked out as around 200 yards in each instance. No mystery, no stretching a tale.
I have no problem believing Keith could make the shots he described in the so-called tall tale. He had been doing it before, knew the general amount of sight to start with, and had someone with scope spotting for him. The only time ive tried a shot at 600 yards (laser ranged to our 24" plate) with a pistol of any sort was with a gen 2 g19 and WWB ammo. With someone with binoculars calling the shots, i walked in a single hit in 10 rds, kneeling, left elbow rested on my left knee, sort of cheating as it were. I was satisfied it wasnt all that mysterious or difficult to do, and plan to do more shooting at that range when im able, and with better guns and loads, like SWC bullets in 357.
Most of the pistol shooting Ive done in the past 20 or so years has been 200-300 yards, the majority of the rounds Ive shot in the g19 has been at those ranges, and mostly one handed. S&W revolvers are easier to shoot at distance, their trigger action is much better, and i think the guns more accurate. I shoot SA at distance with them.
Shooting sporting clays with dad some, hed go practice the tough shots and stages, over and over and over, then go shoot a course and improve his score. Practice the easy stuff, like close up and two handed in the case of pistol shooting, youre not going to improve your overall game. After a while of practicing the harder stuff, then it seems like cheating to do the easier stuff. Most rifle practice has been offhand at the 600 yard plate. Same idea. getting better at something thats tough is fun and rewarding.
Ive been refraining from commenting, I guess id just say some people just need to get out more. Out of your comfort zone and out to longer ranges. 100 yards hardly qualifies as long range once 300 becomes common and doable.
PrideAmmunitionComponents
11-04-2022, 02:02 PM
This may have been suggested to you previously. Participation by vendors and technical contribution is welcomed in technical threads, but turning technical threads into commercial promotions as you have started to do in this one is generally not. Many vendors sign up as commercial site supporters and are then welcomed to make all the commercial posts they want in the Supporting Business Forum. They can even get their own sub-forum.
https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?58-Supporting-Business-Forum
You have to start somewhere. I'm not bank sponsored or owned by anyone connected; I've put my life savings into helping my community put meat on the table and keep this country armed. It's amazing that THIS online community really has such a problem with new companies starting out grass-roots and telling people that they exist. I'm sleeping on the floor of the shop and working 16 hour days to try and keep this from becoming China 2.0, without tons of money to advertise like the companies building guns, yet pushing civilian disarmament. Let me ask you, if you started a manufacturing business from nothing with some scrap metal and a BBQ, where would you advertise first?
Remington abandoned us in NY and we hardly saw a single box of .22's or 30-06 for YEARS. Is this what we've been reduced to in this country? We see someone trying to keep up with big business, and we immediately tell them to go away or tell them to spend more money on "Business" options to appease our sense of enjoyment? There is an advertisement at the top of this page for Agile Training and Consulting; no one complains. We're talking about a bullet design and weight in a conversation on a forum, I say I produce them and show some pictures. "Oh lord, gotta get this guy outta here! He's advertising the exact bullets we were discussing on a gun forum, sometimes gives samples for free to share and show the quality...but he doesn't pay enough in advertising fees to deserve my attention! Go pay for a sub-forum!"
Lester Polfus
11-04-2022, 03:04 PM
You have to start somewhere. I'm not bank sponsored or owned by anyone connected; I've put my life savings into helping my community put meat on the table and keep this country armed. It's amazing that THIS online community really has such a problem with new companies starting out grass-roots and telling people that they exist. I'm sleeping on the floor of the shop and working 16 hour days to try and keep this from becoming China 2.0, without tons of money to advertise like the companies building guns, yet pushing civilian disarmament. Let me ask you, if you started a manufacturing business from nothing with some scrap metal and a BBQ, where would you advertise first?
Remington abandoned us in NY and we hardly saw a single box of .22's or 30-06 for YEARS. Is this what we've been reduced to in this country? We see someone trying to keep up with big business, and we immediately tell them to go away or tell them to spend more money on "Business" options to appease our sense of enjoyment? There is an advertisement at the top of this page for Agile Training and Consulting; no one complains. We're talking about a bullet design and weight in a conversation on a forum, I say I produce them and show some pictures. "Oh lord, gotta get this guy outta here! He's advertising the exact bullets we were discussing on a gun forum, sometimes gives samples for free to share and show the quality...but he doesn't pay enough in advertising fees to deserve my attention! Go pay for a sub-forum!"
Nobody has a problem with you starting an ammo company. Your posts are the equivalent of the spam emails I delete from my gmail account every morning. There are lots of people on this forum who have a financial stake in the firearms industry, and none of them are behaving the way you are. This should be a clue.
Lester Polfus
11-04-2022, 03:11 PM
Whether or not Elmer shot a deer at X number of yards with Y number of rounds is a topic that gets aired out on the internet periodically, particularly on that forum where nobody knows how to spell "bullet" correctly. It is unknown and unknowable what happened. The first step to trying to "prove" anything would be figuring out which version of the story you were trying to prove.
I think the unspoken, and perhaps unconscious larger issue is "if that tale is a bit of a stretcher, does it invalidate everything else Elmer Keith wrote?"
In my opinion, it does not. I live a rural life, and have gravitated toward a Magnum revolver as one of my primary working tools. Sixguns and Sixgun Cartridges and Loads provides quite a bit of wisdom about guns, loads, and shooting techniques that are applicable to modern-day woodsbums, handgun hunters, homesteaders, ranchers, and similar folks who live with a gun as a tool and find a rifle inconvenient to pack around all the time. Some of the stuff in there has been surpassed by modern powders, sights, guns and etc, but a person could still get a .45 Colt or .44 Special single action, a couple pounds of 2400 or Unique, and some cast bullets and get through life just fine.
You have to start somewhere. I'm not bank sponsored or owned by anyone connected; I've put my life savings into helping my community put meat on the table and keep this country armed. It's amazing that THIS online community really has such a problem with new companies starting out grass-roots and telling people that they exist. I'm sleeping on the floor of the shop and working 16 hour days to try and keep this from becoming China 2.0, without tons of money to advertise like the companies building guns, yet pushing civilian disarmament. Let me ask you, if you started a manufacturing business from nothing with some scrap metal and a BBQ, where would you advertise first?
Remington abandoned us in NY and we hardly saw a single box of .22's or 30-06 for YEARS. Is this what we've been reduced to in this country? We see someone trying to keep up with big business, and we immediately tell them to go away or tell them to spend more money on "Business" options to appease our sense of enjoyment? There is an advertisement at the top of this page for Agile Training and Consulting; no one complains. We're talking about a bullet design and weight in a conversation on a forum, I say I produce them and show some pictures. "Oh lord, gotta get this guy outta here! He's advertising the exact bullets we were discussing on a gun forum, sometimes gives samples for free to share and show the quality...but he doesn't pay enough in advertising fees to deserve my attention! Go pay for a sub-forum!"
This forum has some pretty strict standards. And its policed pretty well. If you had reached out to Little Lebowski first nothing would have been said. However I will also note no one who has addressed you is a moderator. Id have a discussion with LL at this point. Im sure there are some potential clients here.
Velo Dog
11-04-2022, 06:23 PM
a Wadcutter is not aerodynamic enough for longer shots
A typical wadcutter's steep bullet drop is largely due to its low velocity.
However, its low ballistic coefficient can result in significant wind drift.
Using factory .38 Special loads in the ballistic calculator at www.federalpremium.com
148 wadcutter drifts 2.5" at 50 yard and 10.4" at 100 yards in a 10 mph crosswind.
158 gr. LSWHP drifts 0.5" at 50 yards and 2.1" at 100 yards.
With a muzzle velocity of 690 fps, a factory wadcutter zeroed at 50 yards would hit 167.3 inches low at 200 yards and drift 45.8 inches.
Even if loaded to 1000 fps, the wadcutter would still drop more than the slower 158 gr. semi-wadcutter and would drift 37.7 inches compared to only 9" for the semi-wadcutter.
Lost River
11-04-2022, 06:44 PM
There will always be people on both sides of the fence when it comes to the 600 yard, Elmer Keith deer story.
That said, don't think for a minute that an iron sighted .44 Magnum (or other big bore handgun) is not capable of performing the task.
I have a 3'x3' target board at my cabin. From the bench where we shoot it is 782 yards. We spot for each other using a spotting scope and walk the rounds in until we are on target. An older friend from back east who shoots Freedom Arms revolvers and is a big .41 Mag nut is extremely proficient at it. When he is dialed in, he can get 3 out of 5 hits on the board sometimes.
There is a lot to it, which I won't go into tonight, but rest assured it is absolutely possible.
I have shot revolvers (and autos) at extended distances for many years. It simply takes practice.
Here is a pic from the Pahsimeroi Valley. Horse Heaven Pass, where Elmer Keith wrote about numerous times. We were doing some long range shooting, out to about 4-500 yards.
This is the Mackay Reservoir in the fall. We had set targets up out to (if I recall right) 550 yards. I was shooting my 5" and 6.5" Model 29s.
The Folgers bucket holds 550 rounds of ammo.
https://i.imgur.com/mu7XTp2l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GUYmIZAl.jpg
A pic from the target board looking back down to the cabin:
https://i.imgur.com/XHoAT9Sl.jpg
100 yard shooting is not too hard if you have a stable rest. I have shot large game animals at that distance. Today, given the proliferation of red dot sights on hunting handguns, it is even easier to precisely shoot at extended distances.
I used a 310 grain WFN projectile on this bull. He was just a shade over 100 yards.
Anyways.
That is simply my take on things.
These days if I was going out with the intent of handgun hunting I would opt for an RDO equipped .44 or .45 and good hard cast bullet.
https://i.imgur.com/9C0Ysful.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yXKVWv0l.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/eVSt8Aul.jpg
TCinVA
11-04-2022, 09:06 PM
So far the farthest I've killed a critter with a handgun has been just shy of 70 yards. I used my Acro-equipped Gen5 G17...which is an exceptionally accurate gun for a Glock...to aim at and hit the ribcage of a squirrel. I was using 124 grain +P HST.
I'm reasonably certain that if I can do that with a Glock, Keith could hit something at 600 with the single action press on a model 29.
It's a question of marksmanship and math. Keith knew how to get stable with a handgun. He knew how to press a trigger cleanly, especially in single action mode. He invented a way to get a reliable sighting reference through a lot of trial and error. He was also not unfamiliar with the use of a rifle for long distance work even with a magnified optic.
He was a fastidious tinkerer who took careful notes. And I'm betting that he was also blessed with superior vision to what most people have. When the sun is right sometimes even normal mortals like me can see a handgun bullet as it flies downrange. With good eyesight during the travel time of the bullet his eyes would have had enough time to go from a front sight focus to focusing back downrange to see where a bullet hit if it was kicking up dust.
I also have the benefit of watching people who have never shot at even 100 yards before get to the point where they can make hits at 1,000 yards when being capably spotted for. Spotting for somebody and being able to give useful elevation and wind calls is fucking hard and it's stretched my skillsets to be helping put on a precision rifle class working a spotting scope and making a useful call.
So if he knew his round's ballistics (and he did) and he had the ability to get a stable position (and he did) and he had a precise enough sighting reference (he invented one) and could execute on the trigger (he certainly could) and he had the assistance of a spotter who was better at it than me, I have no doubt he got to the point where he could hit what he wanted to at some pretty incredible distances. Figuring out the firing solution is the hard part. Not moving the gun as you press the trigger once it's dialed in is relatively easy by comparison.
What I'm relatively certain of is that Keith routinely made hits at distances that are multiples of even what most think of as long range for a pistol.
jetfire
11-04-2022, 09:36 PM
Yes, a bit. As mentioned, Lost River has as well and is more experienced at longer ranges than I am.
I started messing with it in Az in the 80s, Once i understood how keith was describing to use the sights, it became simpler to make consistent hits at longer ranges, in my case, I mostly only shot to around 300 yards with basic carry revolvers and a K-22. The more you do it the more hits you get, first round hits being the most rewarding. The only game I shot at any distance was a coyote at around 200 yards near Flagstaff. First round hit with 4" 29 and medium velocity loads. He got up, and I hit him a couple more times in the 6 rds in the gun. He stopped getting up at that point. Was with a friend at the time, he was a little surprised i was going to try the shot when we saw him. I walked it off going to retrieve him and later looked at it on google earth, it checked out as around 200 yards in each instance. No mystery, no stretching a tale.
I have no problem believing Keith could make the shots he described in the so-called tall tale. He had been doing it before, knew the general amount of sight to start with, and had someone with scope spotting for him. The only time ive tried a shot at 600 yards (laser ranged to our 24" plate) with a pistol of any sort was with a gen 2 g19 and WWB ammo. With someone with binoculars calling the shots, i walked in a single hit in 10 rds, kneeling, left elbow rested on my left knee, sort of cheating as it were. I was satisfied it wasnt all that mysterious or difficult to do, and plan to do more shooting at that range when im able, and with better guns and loads, like SWC bullets in 357.
Most of the pistol shooting Ive done in the past 20 or so years has been 200-300 yards, the majority of the rounds Ive shot in the g19 has been at those ranges, and mostly one handed. S&W revolvers are easier to shoot at distance, their trigger action is much better, and i think the guns more accurate. I shoot SA at distance with them.
Shooting sporting clays with dad some, hed go practice the tough shots and stages, over and over and over, then go shoot a course and improve his score. Practice the easy stuff, like close up and two handed in the case of pistol shooting, youre not going to improve your overall game. After a while of practicing the harder stuff, then it seems like cheating to do the easier stuff. Most rifle practice has been offhand at the 600 yard plate. Same idea. getting better at something thats tough is fun and rewarding.
Ive been refraining from commenting, I guess id just say some people just need to get out more. Out of your comfort zone and out to longer ranges. 100 yards hardly qualifies as long range once 300 becomes common and doable.
If Elmer's tall tale was 300 I'd not question it at all.
But I've actually shot living, moving things further than 600, and thus my skeptical hippo eyes will remain well in place.
Lester Polfus
11-04-2022, 09:47 PM
In case it wasn’t clear, I’m not discounting Elmer’s story out of hand. Since I’ve started six gunning on the regular I’ve been surprised at what I can accomplish with my modest skills and plebeian GP100.
Somebody mentioned superior eyesight. It would not surprise me if Elmer was one of those people.
I’m not sure if I am going to buy any more ore guns anytime soon, or ever, but If I do, my next “brush gun” won’t be a rifle but a 5.5” .44 or .45 Blackhawk with a red dot. Here in the thick timber on the wet side of the PNW I would use that for elk with no problem.
If Elmer's tall tale was 300 I'd not question it at all.
But I've actually shot living, moving things further than 600, and thus my skeptical hippo eyes will remain well in place.
That's ironic because I get skeptical hippo eyes when airmen claim to have shot living moving things past 600 yards. Getting enough experience doing so to discredit others.
If Elmer's tall tale was 300 I'd not question it at all.
But I've actually shot living, moving things further than 600, and thus my skeptical hippo eyes will remain well in place.
Caleb will you please stop? Members have testified to shooting at these distances and further, and also a video has been provided.
To discuss whether you believe EKs stories are true or not is not the reason I started the thread, and its starting to be a distraction.
Thank you
Brian
Salamander
11-05-2022, 01:17 AM
Would be interested in a solid copper wadcutter for maintaining crisp edges and to eliminate handling lead. Should be relatively cheap to machine with little waste material.
Just saw this while catching up on threads. Yes. Non-lead has been a requirement for use on critters out here for several years now, and away from the major cities a lot of people carry in the woods, on ranches, etc. There's been more than a little interest expressed at one of the ranges where I RSO. I'm sort of already doing a variation of this by loading Cutting Edge solids which have a large flat meplat, but more solid copper choices would be even better.
jetfire
11-05-2022, 08:50 AM
That's ironic because I get skeptical hippo eyes when airmen claim to have shot living moving things past 600 yards. Getting enough experience doing so to discredit others.
Lol I certainly didn’t do that in the Air Force, calm down cool guy
PrideAmmunitionComponents
11-05-2022, 01:47 PM
This forum has some pretty strict standards. And its policed pretty well. If you had reached out to Little Lebowski first nothing would have been said. However I will also note no one who has addressed you is a moderator. Id have a discussion with LL at this point. Im sure there are some potential clients here.
Yes, I spoke with Lebowski before I did anything on this website and gave him a small amount of cash as a Contributor. Jesus did his best to help people and they nailed him to a friggin cross. Happy to help anyone not approaching me with a hammer and nails.
Thanks for all of your support! It's great to see the American people becoming so supporting and understanding towards each other! I'm very glad I did this for my community and my country if this is how supportive we can all be towards each other, instead of letting big business control everything.
We can also just keep buying ammo and components from Freedom Arms group and the big conglomerates, and putting down any new company that we see starting out so that no one wants the headache anymore. They can definitely help use our money to push civilian disarmament in Washington D.C., and we can all learn Chinese. Think about this for one minute if you don't mind. How many kids do you know RIGHT NOW saying they want to deal with the Federal Government constantly and manufacture guns or ammo? Heard about the food shortages and Diesel fuel shortage for truckers? What happens when you CAN'T get ammo from the big guys during a shortage but there are riots in your town? Ah yes. That company that keeps popping up everywhere with solid products and devoted Patriots and Veterans as Staff will still answer the phone.
Zaijian!
Yes, I spoke with Lebowski before I did anything on this website and gave him a small amount of cash as a Contributor. Jesus did his best to help people and they nailed him to a friggin cross. Happy to help anyone not approaching me with a hammer and nails.
Thanks for all of your support! It's great to see the American people becoming so supporting and understanding towards each other! I'm very glad I did this for my community and my country if this is how supportive we can all be towards each other, instead of letting big business control everything.
We can also just keep buying ammo and components from Freedom Arms group and the big conglomerates, and putting down any new company that we see starting out so that no one wants the headache anymore. They can definitely help use our money to push civilian disarmament in Washington D.C., and we can all learn Chinese. Think about this for one minute if you don't mind. How many kids do you know RIGHT NOW saying they want to deal with the Federal Government constantly and manufacture guns or ammo? Heard about the food shortages and Diesel fuel shortage for truckers? What happens when you CAN'T get ammo from the big guys during a shortage but there are riots in your town? Ah yes. That company that keeps popping up everywhere with solid products and devoted Patriots and Veterans as Staff will still answer the phone.
Zaijian!
Bud, Im trying to help you out. 😁👍 Nobody is going to be able to find your info in the middle of this thread 6 months from now. Your best bet is to start a new thread, introduce yourself and your products. If you are going to post in this thread again please keep it relevant to the discussion. Thank you and best of luck with your Company.
the Schwartz
11-05-2022, 05:22 PM
Just a friendly bit of advice; this kind of content (economics and geo-politics)—
Yes, I spoke with Lebowski before I did anything on this website and gave him a small amount of cash as a Contributor. Jesus did his best to help people and they nailed him to a friggin cross. Happy to help anyone not approaching me with a hammer and nails.
Thanks for all of your support! It's great to see the American people becoming so supporting and understanding towards each other! I'm very glad I did this for my community and my country if this is how supportive we can all be towards each other, instead of letting big business control everything.
We can also just keep buying ammo and components from Freedom Arms group and the big conglomerates, and putting down any new company that we see starting out so that no one wants the headache anymore. They can definitely help use our money to push civilian disarmament in Washington D.C., and we can all learn Chinese. Think about this for one minute if you don't mind. How many kids do you know RIGHT NOW saying they want to deal with the Federal Government constantly and manufacture guns or ammo? Heard about the food shortages and Diesel fuel shortage for truckers? What happens when you CAN'T get ammo from the big guys during a shortage but there are riots in your town? Ah yes. That company that keeps popping up everywhere with solid products and devoted Patriots and Veterans as Staff will still answer the phone.
Zaijian!
—is probably better relegated to the Politics Discussion sub-forum anyway. Since you are a Site Supporter, you should have access to the Politics Discussion sub-forum.
This is a technical forum where we try to constrain discussion in the threads to technical matter and leave the irrelevant banter to other locations.
Most of the time, P-F members comply with this requirement. I hope that you'll do the same.
Lost River
11-05-2022, 06:30 PM
Yes, I spoke with Lebowski before I did anything on this website and gave him a small amount of cash as a Contributor. Jesus did his best to help people and they nailed him to a friggin cross. Happy to help anyone not approaching me with a hammer and nails.
Thanks for all of your support! It's great to see the American people becoming so supporting and understanding towards each other! I'm very glad I did this for my community and my country if this is how supportive we can all be towards each other, instead of letting big business control everything.
We can also just keep buying ammo and components from Freedom Arms group and the big conglomerates, and putting down any new company that we see starting out so that no one wants the headache anymore. They can definitely help use our money to push civilian disarmament in Washington D.C., and we can all learn Chinese. Think about this for one minute if you don't mind. How many kids do you know RIGHT NOW saying they want to deal with the Federal Government constantly and manufacture guns or ammo? Heard about the food shortages and Diesel fuel shortage for truckers? What happens when you CAN'T get ammo from the big guys during a shortage but there are riots in your town? Ah yes. That company that keeps popping up everywhere with solid products and devoted Patriots and Veterans as Staff will still answer the phone.
Zaijian!
Your Martyr act is a bit much..
I cannot speak for others, but personally when you start comparing yourself to Jesus nailed to the cross, I cannot take anything you say seriously. What you wrote after that about civilian disarmament (doing it for the children schtick), food shortages, riots and all the other crap, acting like you are on a mission to save the world is ridiculous.
You are selling poly coated hard cast bullets. Same as a number of other places.
Ive got more than 15K poly coated projectiles sitting on my loading room floor.
https://i.imgur.com/7M1DYqjl.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/CxszCMjl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QIXV9cml.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nLi5eqil.jpg
Not one of the companies I purchased them from compared themselves to Jesus or felt the need to promote themselves by saying they were on a crusade to save America. The way to save America, by the way was to buy their products, because that would prevent civilian disarmament based out of Washington D.C. prevent the children from having to learn Chinese.
Absolutely Ridiculous.
Lester Polfus
11-05-2022, 06:51 PM
It's kinda hard to sell stuff to people when you are on their "ignore" list.
Ok. I'll stop. Let's talk about wadcutters again.
Let's talk about wadcutters again.
I ordered a couple of boxes of Winchester 148 wad cutters from Target Sports. Looks like they still have some. I'll compare them to the Federal I have.
Lester Polfus
11-05-2022, 08:23 PM
I ordered a couple of boxes of Winchester 148 wad cutters from Target Sports. Looks like they still have some. I'll compare them to the Federal I have.
Yes please. I've had some issues with some of the Winchester revolver ammo I've bought over the last few years, so I'm curious what you find.
WilsonCQB1911
11-06-2022, 01:13 PM
How do the Black Hills 148grb wadcutters compare? I know Black Hills makes fantastic ammo but I wasn't sure if the velocity is sufficient for penetration or if it compares favorably to other full wadcutters options.
PNWTO
11-06-2022, 03:22 PM
How do the Black Hills 148grb wadcutters compare? I know Black Hills makes fantastic ammo but I wasn't sure if the velocity is sufficient for penetration or if it compares favorably to other full wadcutters options.
FGMM advertises their 148s @ 690 fps; BH says 700fps. In my experience they are copy/paste to the FGMM loads in regards to felt recoil and accuracy; although I haven’t really pressed them at 25 and beyond.
BehindBlueI's
11-06-2022, 03:55 PM
On vacation, so drive-by moderator incoming:
Keep the bullshit out of technical subforums. Political content is only allowed in the politics subforum. Posts will be deleted without notice, the mod team does not currently have time to edit or other workarounds.
Lost River
11-06-2022, 04:09 PM
Doing a self delete.
I saw the Mod took care of the problem, so I am deleting my response to keep things flowing as they should.
Cheers!
Hambo
11-06-2022, 05:43 PM
Ive got more than 15K poly coated projectiles sitting on my loading room floor.
But are they polyunsaturated? ;)
In bulk bullets my main concern is price. For revolvers there are specific bullet designs that I prefer, and those who cast them generally don't coat them.
PrideAmmunitionComponents
11-06-2022, 05:49 PM
I prefer SWC's over Wadcutters though I do see their appeal for target shooting, and I hope everyone finds what works for them.
No need for arguments or politics. Do what works for you and don't put people down for doing what they think is right.
If anyone is adventurous and wants a free sample I'm happy to share. If not, we can all keep on truckin.
PrideAmmunitionComponents
11-06-2022, 07:01 PM
But are they polyunsaturated? ;)
In bulk bullets my main concern is price. For revolvers there are specific bullet designs that I prefer, and those who cast them generally don't coat them.
I can proudly say we cast and coat in-house. It takes a lot of work but it's possible.
Outpost75
11-08-2022, 09:53 PM
Im at a loss as to why more than 710 fps is needed. Could you explain this?
The original rationale for the full charge wadcutter was to approximate the recoil of standard pressure 158 LRN service loads in practice and training ammunition. Coincidentally this load produced velocity from a 2-inch snub which approximated the velocity of midrange target wadcutters fired from a 6-inch revolver. This became well proven as an effective street load, which did not shoot loose light alloy frame revolvers.
Outpost75
11-08-2022, 10:23 PM
I have LOTS of experience with the various 158 FMJ .38 Special loads from the WW2 and Vietnam era as well as current manufacture FMJ " range" ammo.
WW2 era Rem-UMC and WRA Co. gliding metal clad steel jacket was produced for the S&W Victory and Colt Commando revolvers, because lead ammo was unsuited by treaty for combat use. The clad steel jacket conserved copper. Velocity was a close match to normal 158 LRN police service loads, typically 770+/- 25 fps from a 4" revolver. Because of greater bore drag with jacketed bullet, pressure would probably approach modern +P.
Bullet diameter on examples I have pulled down and measured was .3565"-.357. Powder charge was 5 grains of Infallible or PB. Primers were sealed with either clear lacquer (Rem-UMC) or Glidden purple indicator (WRA). Bullets cemented into case mouths with Black Lucas and not crimped.
Vietnam era WCC XM174 produced similar ballistics with a gliding metal jacketed, blunt, hemispherical-nosed bullet loaded with WC230, chronographing 795 fps from my 4" Colt Official Police. My test rounds were headstamped WCC60.
Fiocchi 158 FMJ in the brown box as produced for Italian police in the 1970s-80s is a +P equivalent producing ~850 fps from a 4" revolver.
Swedish Norma 158 FMJ-SWC +P from the 1960-70s does the same, used as a service load by French and Swedish police as well as by MACV and Air America "sheep dipped" aircrew who wanted a more effective load than M41 Ball.
Recent production "Range and Training" 158 FMJFN whether produced for Norma, Geco, RWS, RUAG either in Sweden, Germany, Switzerland or Hungary is all loaded to standard pressure and produces 750+/- 30 fps from a 4" revolver or 780 fps from a 6", being the quasi-standard Euro indoor range lead free primer load. Not as accurate as good lead wadcutter match ammunition, but feeds in Cowboy rifles, minimum load to safely exist a rifle and also safe in tubular magazines. Point of impact and grouping in old school fixed sight cop guns approximates old school 158 LRN police service.
The original rationale for the full charge wadcutter was to approximate the recoil of standard pressure 158 LRN service loads in practice and training ammunition. Coincidentally this load produced velocity from a 2-inch snub which approximated the velocity of midrange target wadcutters fired from a 6-inch revolver. This became well proven as an effective street load, which did not shoot loose light alloy frame revolvers.
https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/
One reason why I typically load max charges is because I find it is cleaner burning. I get less unburnt powder and cleaner cylinders chambers.
Chuck Whitlock
11-23-2022, 01:04 AM
https://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-148gr-lead-wadcutter-new/
I don't know if this is what Wayne was talking about. I think I saw them mentioned by Mark Fricke on some social media group or other.
I ordered and received 100 rounds. Haven't shot them yet.
https://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-snub-nose-148gr-wadcutter-20pk/
This IS what Wayne and Mark were talking about. Reportedly debuted at the PRMRR. Not cheap, but if they perform as advertised...
Wayne Dobbs
11-25-2022, 01:06 PM
https://www.georgia-arms.com/38-special-snub-nose-148gr-wadcutter-20pk/
This IS what Wayne and Mark were talking about. Reportedly debuted at the PRMRR. Not cheap, but if they perform as advertised...
So this load was introduced at the Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Roundup at Gunsite this past weekend and it looks like it will be what we hoped for. The load uses the Zero 148 HBWC bullet, loaded to 750 from a 1 7/8" J-frame barrel in Starline brass. The Zero bullet has a semi-cup nosed design with a center button. We found the velocity numbers to be right on and noted that it penetrated to about 15" in clear gel and it expanded to about .40 caliber in bare gel. 4LD penetration was about the same with little to no expansion.
The load shot right to the sights on one of my S&W 642s at seven yards and matched my Outpost75 full power WC load of a 148 DEWC over 3.5 grains of Bullseye as to recoil impulse and POI. I'm awaiting the test firing results of that one from Mark Fricke and will advise later how it performed.
Now we have a dedicated snub load with a specific performance envelope met and in a more court defensible factory load. That's good news!
Paul Blackburn
11-25-2022, 04:57 PM
So this load was introduced at the Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Roundup at Gunsite this past weekend and it looks like it will be what we hoped for. The load uses the Zero 148 HBWC bullet, loaded to 750 from a 1 7/8" J-frame barrel in Starline brass. The Zero bullet has a semi-cup nosed design with a center button. We found the velocity numbers to be right on and noted that it penetrated to about 15" in clear gel and it expanded to about .40 caliber in bare gel. 4LD penetration was about the same with little to no expansion.
The load shot right to the sights on one of my S&W 642s at seven yards and matched my Outpost75 full power WC load of a 148 DEWC over 3.5 grains of Bullseye as to recoil impulse and POI. I'm awaiting the test firing results of that one from Mark Fricke and will advise later how it performed.
Now we have a dedicated snub load with a specific performance envelope met and in a more court defensible factory load. That's good news!
How did the recoil compare to Federal Premium 148?
Chuck Whitlock
11-25-2022, 06:45 PM
So this load was introduced at the Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Roundup at Gunsite this past weekend and it looks like it will be what we hoped for. The load uses the Zero 148 HBWC bullet, loaded to 750 from a 1 7/8" J-frame barrel in Starline brass. The Zero bullet has a semi-cup nosed design with a center button. We found the velocity numbers to be right on and noted that it penetrated to about 15" in clear gel and it expanded to about .40 caliber in bare gel. 4LD penetration was about the same with little to no expansion.
The load shot right to the sights on one of my S&W 642s at seven yards and matched my Outpost75 full power WC load of a 148 DEWC over 3.5 grains of Bullseye as to recoil impulse and POI. I'm awaiting the test firing results of that one from Mark Fricke and will advise later how it performed.
Now we have a dedicated snub load with a specific performance envelope met and in a more court defensible factory load. That's good news!
Is there any way to visually differentiate between this load and GA's regular WC offering, besides the packaging?
If not, I might want to utilize the Precision One plated WCs for practice.
El Cid
11-25-2022, 07:10 PM
I was understanding wadcutters were for folks in states that forbid hollow points, but I’m always willing to learn. Why would a person choose those over the 135gr GD?
I was understanding wadcutters were for folks in states that forbid hollow points, but I’m always willing to learn. Why would a person choose those over the 135gr GD?
Easier to shoot/lighter recoil in small lightweight snubs. They don't plug up like JHP (which often fail to expand from short .38's), but still crush more tissue than something like RNL or FMJ, thanks to sharper/flatter front edges of the bullet.
Wayne Dobbs
11-26-2022, 09:35 AM
Is there any way to visually differentiate between this load and GA's regular WC offering, besides the packaging?
If not, I might want to utilize the Precision One plated WCs for practice.
I don't think so, Chuck.
Wayne Dobbs
11-26-2022, 09:36 AM
How did the recoil compare to Federal Premium 148?
A little more, but it's not a problem from what I noticed.
Paul Blackburn
11-26-2022, 10:06 AM
A little more, but it's not a problem from what I noticed.
I figured it would be.
The GA Ammo lists the muzzle velocity at 750 out of a 1 7/8 barrel vs 690 with the Federal GM.
The extra oomp should make it a good choice for self defense ammo.
Navin Johnson
11-26-2022, 10:48 AM
A little more, but it's not a problem from what I noticed.
Glad someone is making a WC with a J frame in mind.
Is the projectile harder than the Federal load? One of the problems with standard WC’s is rounding especially as velocity increases. So harder alloy would increase cutting.
Why the velocity chosen? As it seems at 750 fps it’s getting to the recoil level that would negate a WC’s biggest advantage or reason to use over a GD 135+p as an example.
Thanks
Wayne Dobbs
11-26-2022, 11:56 AM
Glad someone is making a WC with a J frame in mind.
Is the projectile harder than the Federal load? One of the problems with standard WC’s is rounding especially as velocity increases. So harder alloy would increase cutting.
Why the velocity chosen? As it seems at 750 fps it’s getting to the recoil level that would negate a WC’s biggest advantage or reason to use over a GD 135+p as an example.
Thanks
I don't know that the alloy is harder than GMM, but the nose design is better, leading to some flare/expansion that is very symmetrical in the testing, both in bare gel and 4LD. The actual expanded diameter in bare gel was 0.43 and in 4LD was .385 with average penetrations of 15" in a very straight path. Recoil isn't difficult to handle from the new load and is distinctly less than 135 +P GDHP, which I have shot a few hundred rounds of through several S&W J-frames. I believe this performance envelope provides a well-balanced snub load that achieves dependable penetration, controllability, standard pressure and some nice expansion in one package. It's most important to remember that ammo is likely less than 10% of the success formula in street shootings, so we are very prone to, at least subconsciously, thinking our ammo choices ensure success. They don't. But I think this one, or other well-chosen and tested loads will take care of the ammo box to be checked for .38 Special snub defensive use.
revchuck38
11-26-2022, 12:30 PM
You guys. Sheesh! I finally score some GMM and now this comes out. :rolleyes:
So this load was introduced at the Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Roundup at Gunsite this past weekend and it looks like it will be what we hoped for. The load uses the Zero 148 HBWC bullet, loaded to 750 from a 1 7/8" J-frame barrel in Starline brass. The Zero bullet has a semi-cup nosed design with a center button. We found the velocity numbers to be right on and noted that it penetrated to about 15" in clear gel and it expanded to about .40 caliber in bare gel. 4LD penetration was about the same with little to no expansion.
Thanks for developing this load for us snub lovers!
Can you clarify that the “bare gel” was organic and the clear gel was the synthetic?
Seems to me a very fine use for the synthetic gel.
03RN
the Schwartz
Wayne Dobbs
11-26-2022, 07:38 PM
Thanks for developing this load for us snub lovers!
Can you clarify that the “bare gel” was organic and the clear gel was the synthetic?
Seems to me a very fine use for the synthetic gel.
03RN
the Schwartz
All testing was done with synthetic gel.
I personally like the 130gr ranger +p which shoot noticeably softer than the 135gr +p gold dot. I’m not sure how that is the case since the ballistics on paper are very close... I enjoy shooting the GMM, which are obviously softer but I feel better having a bonded bullet.
I personally like the 130gr ranger +p which shoot noticeably softer than the 135gr +p gold dot. I’m not sure how that is the case since the ballistics on paper are very close... I enjoy shooting the GMM, which are obviously softer but I feel better having a bonded bullet.
I've noticed the same thing. Gold Dot seems a lot more harsh. Probably something to do with powder burn rate. I doubt 5 grains of bullet matters much.
revchuck38
12-02-2022, 07:13 PM
I personally like the 130gr ranger +p which shoot noticeably softer than the 135gr +p gold dot. I’m not sure how that is the case since the ballistics on paper are very close... I enjoy shooting the GMM, which are obviously softer but I feel better having a bonded bullet.
Paper ballistics are...notional. ;) Even with the same ammo, velocities will vary from lot to lot.
FWIW, I carry the same Ranger ammo in my 642 and my Detective Special because it shoots to POA. My M49 gets GMM for the same reason.
PNWTO
12-09-2022, 01:20 PM
Just ordered a few boxes of the GA WCs and some of their 158gr loads as well. Excited to see it on a B-8 along with FGMM, which papers a little low on my LCR.
Colt191145lover
12-09-2022, 01:34 PM
I personally like the 130gr ranger +p which shoot noticeably softer than the 135gr +p gold dot. I’m not sure how that is the case since the ballistics on paper are very close... I enjoy shooting the GMM, which are obviously softer but I feel better having a bonded bullet.
I have found that as well with the Winchester Ranger P+ vs the Gold Dot
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