Combatives University

[Flamingo]

Has anyone signed up for this program (https://www.combativesuniversity.org/)? I am interested in it, but there is not a lot of information about what the program entails. This is what is listed for Grey Belt (the first belt in the program).



Combatives Grey Belt

This "course" is not instructional. It is a list of requirements set by Matt Larsen and the Board of Combatives Black Belts for the rank of Grey Belt and how you can fulfill them through submission of documents and videos proving your abilities.

It has my interest piqued; however, I am not sure if it just for personal vanity or if it is because I want to get motivated to do some training.

There are several individuals that I really admire that have earned the black belt.

[45dotACP]

Seems like they spelled Cecil Burch 's name wrong, but didn't mess up SouthNarc

:D :D :D

The dis hespect!

There seem to be some semi-recognizable names on their list of "black belts" but it pings some type of meter for me...maybe it's the "what a cool idea!" meter and maybe it's a "this looks like a scam" meter

Maybe the PF guys know more about this outfit and maybe I'm just ignorant, but video submitted "combatives programs" reminds me of the "Gracie combatives" program that Rener Gracie took so much crap for.

If you can't train anywhere else and its not a scam then maybe it's a good option?

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[Duces Tecum]

Have you considered PM'ing Cecil or SouthNarc for their thoughts on this?

Cordially,
Duces

[Flamingo]

From the small amount I have seen on the website you have to send in videos of yourself competing. I think for the physical fitness portion you will have to film yourself lifting. I am not sure what the requirements for the shooting will be.

[45dotACP]

From the small amount I have seen on the website you have to send in videos of yourself competing. I think for the physical fitness portion you will have to film yourself lifting. I am not sure what the requirements for the shooting will be.

I mean...guys here would critique your shooting video for free I'd wager. You could probably post your lifting form on a strength training subreddit for feedback there.

More than a few BJJ guys offer patreon memberships that include them critiquing competition or rolling footage. Guys like Andrew Wiltse and Bird Wiltse do for sure and those dudes are pretty badass BJJ competitors.

I think the BJJ Mental Models Premium site has guys who will critique your form...I'm pretty sure a couple other guys do as well.

Unless you have a few taped street fights or MMA bouts to show, these guys may not really offer you that much idk?

Again, not trying to shit on this site if it's legit...but it's nothing revolutionary or unobtainable elsewhere I wouldn't think. Unless you're trying to learn a lot of medical stuff? But I'd really suggest in person learning for that.

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[SeriousStudent]

Based on the people that I personally know that are part of it, I think it's a good organization.

That includes the three people that are Moderators for this forum, and a bunch of people they recognized.

[45dotACP]

Based on the people that I personally know that are part of it, I think it's a good organization.

That includes the three people that are Moderators for this forum, and a bunch of people they recognized.No doubt there are a lot of names I recognize. Just wasn't sure if this was a new thing or some group using those names without their knowledge.

If legit, it seems interesting. I was mostly concerned about legitimacy. I'm not the most naturally trusting type, but if the shivworks guys say it's on the level then that's more reassuring.

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[Flamingo]

Well I signed up for the program. I am going to use it as a way to get back into BJJ (as videoed matches are the only thing that is keeping me from my grey belt). I like the idea of having minimum standards for each level.

[Joe S]

I am super curious as to the fitness standards, if you think you can share.

[Mister X]

Legitimacy will largely be determined by whether it aligns with what your goals specifically happen to be, and sometimes what’s advertised doesn’t always align with reality. It’s a business like any other that wants to appeal to the largest audience. Plus, there tends to be a fair amount of ego and neurotic pride in the martial arts world, so it’s always a good idea to keep that in mind.

“The Combatives belt system is not one of memorizing techniques and demonstrating them with a compliant partner. That type of system inevitably creates paper tigers who cannot fight. Rather, it is a list of skills and abilities that must be mastered and a method for proving that you have done so, usually through video evidence but also with training certificates or similar documentation. “

That statement alone gives me pause and honestly would probably cause me to not recommend it if someone was asking solely about developing practical self-defense skills. That’s just me though. I don’t know what you’re after, but hopefully it turns out to be what you’re wanting. Good luck.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I'm intrigued as well. I'll have to ask a couple of the black belts about the hands on side of things.

[Jackdog]

As one of newly promoted black belts I may be able to shed some light on the promotion process.

But some background my be needed. The Combatives University is an outgrowth of the Combatives Association. The Combatives Association was started by Matt Larsen. Matt is the originator of the MACP. When Matt was in the Ranger Regiment he was tasked by Stan McCrystal to develop a Combatives program for the Regiment.

The Combatives University is a continuation of MACP outside of the Army. The tasks listed are requirements to be completed by the individual. They are not training videos like you would see in the Gracie university. You have to show your work. You have to show videos of you competing and winnings in competition such as IBJJF. You have to show proficiency in bout pistol and rifle/carbine qualifications. You have to show yourself meeting the strength standards in bench, squat and deadlifts. You have to show proficiency in Tac med.

So, you have to show your work either in the presence of a black belt or via video.


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[Jackdog]

I mean...guys here would critique your shooting video for free I'd wager. You could probably post your lifting form on a strength training subreddit for feedback there.

More than a few BJJ guys offer patreon memberships that include them critiquing competition or rolling footage. Guys like Andrew Wiltse and Bird Wiltse do for sure and those dudes are pretty badass BJJ competitors.

I think the BJJ Mental Models Premium site has guys who will critique your form...I'm pretty sure a couple other guys do as well.

Unless you have a few taped street fights or MMA bouts to show, these guys may not really offer you that much idk?

Again, not trying to shit on this site if it's legit...but it's nothing revolutionary or unobtainable elsewhere I wouldn't think. Unless you're trying to learn a lot of medical stuff? But I'd really suggest in person learning for that.

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See above. It’s not online training. It’s not online critiquing of your form. It’s you showing the work showing in shooting, BJJ, Tac med and strength.


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[bofe954]

See above. It’s not online training. It’s not online critiquing of your form. It’s you showing the work showing in shooting, BJJ, Tac med and strength.


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Could you share the strength requirements?

[Jackdog]

Could you share the strength requirements?

Bench = body weight on bar
Squat = 1.5x body weight on bar
DL = 2x body weight on bar


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[bofe954]

Thanks for the speedy reply, I might be a dumbass but does "bodyweight on the bar" mean if I weigh 200lbs I need to bench 200lbs or 245lb (bodyweight + bar)?

[Cheap Shot]

no worries. Means you need to bench 200lbs = to your bodyweight

[Flamingo]

I decided to do this. With the training I have completed previously I am almost done with the grey belt certification. I did the Physical fitness portion today. The standards for grey belt are easily accomplished for most folks. I am ~200 pounds and the lift requirements were not to hard even for a 50 year old. I suspect the requirement for the physical fitness test will go up with the belt.

To finish my grey belt I need 7 more videoed "fights". My two evolutions from ECQC counted and I had a match from a no-gi I was in (I am not a great bjj player but I got a sub (rear naked choke) in that match.

For me this is really just some motivation to get my lazy ass back in the bjj gym and to trim off a few pounds (it will make the lift requirements less, it is based on body weight).

It is also way to pressure test/provide stress inoculation.

The cost to sign up is pretty nominal and I have blown way more on bad take out than the cost of this ($35 for grey belt).

[Jackdog]

Thanks for the speedy reply, I might be a dumbass but does "bodyweight on the bar" mean if I weigh 200lbs I need to bench 200lbs or 245lb (bodyweight + bar)?

You’re welcome.
Yes. If you’re 200# then the total includes the bar. So, 45# bar + 2x45# plates + 2x25# plates + 2x5# plates + 2x2.5# plates = 200#.



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[Cecil Burch]

’m still learning a lot about the program in detail, but as you can guess I’m not having much extra free time right now. But I know the basic idea behind the program and I think it’s an excellent one.

Having some kind of accreditation for the thing I’ve been working on for 25 years or so would be cool, not for me but for those who are following that path now. We (the Collective) had to figure the path out ourselves so having some general guidelines are a complete positive in my book.

I think video “tests” can be problematic but I don’t see an alternative when we are looking for a broad based spectrum of skills and there are not a lot of instructors who can teach it all. At least with video, there is some oversight (even if small), and a lot of things like strength and shooting can easily be tracked on video. John McFee has a entire business based on that.

I don’t know if it will work, but Matt Larsen is not doing this as an omnipotent dictator. He’s actively seeking advice and input on the program from those of us who he has asked to come on board. I think that’s a positive sign, and it will at least get me to try to help and see where it goes.

Hope this made sense.

[Matt Larsen]

I heard about this thread and thought I would pop on here to answer any questions anyone might have.

First, the intent of the Combatives belt system grew out of the need to differentiate between Combatives instructors in the Army who were doing the right things to further their training from those who just attended the MACP courses and want to be teachers without being students. In other words, there were many people who had graduated the courses and were "Combatives Master Trainers" who were not even blue belt level grapplers. This led to people unofficially adopting the BJJ belt system as the default ranking system. That created a whole new set of problems, primarily that people could focus exclusively on ground grappling and not be proficient at all at the other skills a modern warrior needs. Many of the originators of the MACP system have not only become black belts in BJJ since the program started but we also largely came from special operations units and have extensive experience in Combat marksmanship. We also know what we need from our teammates in battle.

The Army is spread out all over the world so we needed a way to encourage people to do the right things that could be tested remotely. We have also all seen attempts at creating belting systems via the internet, i.e. the system Rorion Gracies sons created, and know that sort of thing simply does not work. Proscribing techniques and methods is also not the best way to encourage innovation and excellence.

Once we had the system ready we realized there was no reason to restrict it to people within the Army and that in fact if we opened it up we could get the best instructors in the world on board. We have all trained with various civilian experts and know that most of the true innovation is happening from guys like Craig Douglas, Cecil Burch, Cliff Byerly, etc. In fact, there is a whole community of people independently doing the right things, competing at high levels in BJJ/MMA, action shooting events, tactical games, etc. What we needed was a way to differentiate all of those people from the others who are focused on just one aspect of the warrior skill set.

So that is what the system is. It is built around the concept of Deeds of Arms. The levels are basically resume-building platforms. You post videos of yourself accomplishing Deeds. Fighting, shooting, lifting, and proving you have trauma medical training. Your posts are reviewed by Combatives black belts. That group started out as the toughest guys in the Army but now includes an expanding list of no-shit tough guys who have the skills to back up their words. There are no paper tigers and no charity promotions.

What other questions do you have?

Matt

[Polecat]

Strength standard seems ridiculous for level of martial skill. Those are elite athelte strength standards, but maybe I am a pussy. Would love to hear South Narcs take on the strength side of things.

[Flamingo]

The initial belt (grey belt) is not the 1X-1.5x-2x standard. It is considerably lower. I don't think the 1X-1.5x-2x standard is too much to ask for a black belt. I won't post the grey belt standard unless Matt gives permission, but I don't think anyone who regularly works out will have any problems with it.

[KneeShot]

[QUOTE=Matt Larsen;1392006]I heard about this thread and thought I would pop on here to answer any questions anyone might have.

First, the intent of the Combatives belt system grew out of the need to differentiate between Combatives instructors in the Army who were doing the right things to further their training from those who just attended the MACP courses and want to be teachers without being students. In other words, there were many people who had graduated the courses and were "Combatives Master Trainers" who were not even blue belt level grapplers. This led to people unofficially adopting the BJJ belt system as the default ranking system. That created a whole new set of problems, primarily that people could focus exclusively on ground grappling and not be proficient at all at the other skills a modern warrior needs. Many of the originators of the MACP system have not only become black belts in BJJ since the program started but we also largely came from special operations units and have extensive experience in Combat marksmanship. We also know what we need from our teammates in battle.

The Army is spread out all over the world so we needed a way to encourage people to do the right things that could be tested remotely. We have also all seen attempts at creating belting systems via the internet, i.e. the system Rorion Gracies sons created, and know that sort of thing simply does not work. Proscribing techniques and methods is also not the best way to encourage innovation and excellence.

Once we had the system ready we realized there was no reason to restrict it to people within the Army and that in fact if we opened it up we could get the best instructors in the world on board. We have all trained with various civilian experts and know that most of the true innovation is happening from guys like Craig Douglas, Cecil Burch, Cliff Byerly, etc. In fact, there is a whole community of people independently doing the right things, competing at high levels in BJJ/MMA, action shooting events, tactical games, etc. What we needed was a way to differentiate all of those people from the others who are focused on just one aspect of the warrior skill set.

So that is what the system is. It is built around the concept of Deeds of Arms. The levels are basically resume-building platforms. You post videos of yourself accomplishing Deeds. Fighting, shooting, lifting, and proving you have trauma medical training. Your posts are reviewed by Combatives black belts. That group started out as the toughest guys in the Army but now includes an expanding list of no-shit tough guys who have the skills to back up their words. There are no paper tigers and no charity promotions.

What other questions do you have?

Matt[/QUOTE

Matt,

Thank you for putting out more info here on P-F!
How long has this program been running on the civi side, (outside of .mil/MACP)?
I looked around on your website for standards. If we give the contact data, does the free preview lay out the grad standards for that belt? Or do we get the standards once we fully enroll?
I think what you guys are doing is pretty cool. At first I thought it was gimmicky but after more research it’s nice to see someone legit creating a standard to work for and achieve - combining fighting/grappling, shooting and strength.

Is prior experience accounted for? Let’s say your a BJJ blue belt training for 6yrs w/ a couple of tournaments, and a CSAT Qual’d instructor…is there any proficiency advancement w/ credible documentation?

I noticed there were about 7-10’ish fight videos for Grey Belt. Does each video have different specific requirements?

Thanks for your time!

Jeremy

[45dotACP]

I seem to have misunderstood the intent behind this program.

As a way of certification and seeing how you stack up to the tough guys out there, it seems interesting.

A question for you Matt:

Is the manner in which you fight relevant to these standards?

I'm guessing some dude doing berimbolos from a double guard pull probably doesn't mean much for something intended to be a combatives system.

After all, I am told that takedown skills are really the only true way into Valhalla.

Thanks for making yourself available for information.

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[Polecat]

Flamingo, thanks, yeah that makes more sense.

[Matt Larsen]

Jeremy,

We launched on July 4th this year.

There is a preview feature for each course you can sign in to without fully enrolling. I am not sure if you can see all of the standards but I can tell you what they are. I'll list at the bottom of this post.

Prior experience is the whole point. To qualify for the grey belt, you must be fighting at the blue belt level. No one is going to be able to do that via the internet so you must have been training long enough to have received your blue belt and have acquired enough skill and fought in enough tournaments to have the required victories. There are no time limits or requirements in the program. The standards are the skills and accomplishments.

The requirements are victory. If you defeat ten opponents as a blue belt, you are a decent blue belt level fighter, and that is the standard.

The marksmanship and lifting standards are fairly low on the first few levels. The program is meant to encourage people to train. Most of the Combatives instructors in the Army were already proficient with basic soldier skills, rifle marksmanship, combat lifesavor, etc. So at grey and green, those standards are fairly easy to meet. At Brown, they take a pretty good jump. Still fairly achievable with a little effort, USPSA C/B class shooter, IDPA Sharpshooter. The intent is competence with weaponry and getting people doing real training with firearms in a way the Army system just can't do. The strength standard are the same, They come from https://strengthlevel.com/. Grey requires beginner-level strength to get people started. Green requires novice-level. Brown requires intermediate level, which is quite high for most people.

So if you have been training for a while, you will be able to go straight through the lower ranks. We have had a couple go through grey and green within the two months the system has been up.

Matt

[Matt Larsen]

Is the manner in which you fight relevant to these standards?

I'm guessing some dude doing berimbolos from a double guard pull probably doesn't mean much for something intended to be a combatives system.

After all, I am told that takedown skills are really the only true way into Valhalla.

It is less important at the lower ranks. But all of the proofs are vetted by some of the current black belts. If they don't display fighting ability the board will reject them and ask for different proof. But I'll tell you a funny story about the berimbolo. One of our black belts is a guy who was both a Ranger Regiment guy and later an assaulter in a tier one counter-terror unit. He was scoffing at that kind of BJJ so he went out to train with the Mendes brothers for two weeks and came home to take everyone's back at will. LOL! Of course the same guy was a monster fighter with thousands of raids under his belt from Iraq and Afghanistan. So, doing wazoo bs competition grappling stuff isn't bad, just not what the board of black belts wants to see to prove you can win real fights.

And you definitely don't get into Valhalla pulling guard.

Matt

[KneeShot]

Jeremy,

We launched on July 4th this year.

There is a preview feature for each course you can sign in to without fully enrolling. I am not sure if you can see all of the standards but I can tell you what they are. I'll list at the bottom of this post.

Prior experience is the whole point. To qualify for the grey belt, you must be fighting at the blue belt level. No one is going to be able to do that via the internet so you must have been training long enough to have received your blue belt and have acquired enough skill and fought in enough tournaments to have the required victories. There are no time limits or requirements in the program. The standards are the skills and accomplishments.

The requirements are victory. If you defeat ten opponents as a blue belt, you are a decent blue belt level fighter, and that is the standard.

The marksmanship and lifting standards are fairly low on the first few levels. The program is meant to encourage people to train. Most of the Combatives instructors in the Army were already proficient with basic soldier skills, rifle marksmanship, combat lifesavor, etc. So at grey and green, those standards are fairly easy to meet. At Brown, they take a pretty good jump. Still fairly achievable with a little effort, USPSA C/B class shooter, IDPA Sharpshooter. The intent is competence with weaponry and getting people doing real training with firearms in a way the Army system just can't do. The strength standard are the same, They come from https://strengthlevel.com/. Grey requires beginner-level strength to get people started. Green requires novice-level. Brown requires intermediate level, which is quite high for most people.

So if you have been training for a while, you will be able to go straight through the lower ranks. We have had a couple go through grey and green within the two months the system has been up.

Matt

Standards, competence, and encouragement.
Keep the leadership momentum!
Thank you for the transparent reply ! - insert “rock n’ roll” emoji here.

[bofe954]

Strength standard seems ridiculous for level of martial skill. Those are elite athelte strength standards, but maybe I am a pussy. Would love to hear South Narcs take on the strength side of things.

I'm 47. I've goofed around with weight lifting for a long time but never seriously. Never had a trainer, never really made any effort to eat around it (although I've been working a diet lately). I have read some books and looked at stuff on the web. I've never been an athlete, was a terrible wrestler for few years in junior high and lately I'm a terrible BJJ blue belt.

I can easily meet the bench req for the black belt and am not far off the squat and DL. I've seen those req's before somewhere but I don't remember where.

I'm not real interested in this program, but I am going to try and work my legs and back and try and meet the requirement just to have a lifting goal.

I am confident I can meet that req and I promise I am not anything like an elite athlete.

[Rocky Racoon]

I'm not hating on this like a lot of people hated on the Gracies Garage thing and were outraged at people earning a blue belt online without a proper IBJJ affiliated instructor to train them. But...

I might be fine if you want accountability (sort of, you can still quit) and a set of goals to achieve. But the lower belts are worth what you paid for them. Presumably you are already paying a BJJ instructor, so now you pay for the privilege of someone entirely different watching of video and saying "yep, he won that match." Or for someone to watch a video of you pressing X amount and saying "yep, you pressed X amount?" And you pay for someone to watch a video of you shooting a USPSA match and guess your skill level? Practiscore will tell you that in a few hours.

The objectives (strength standards, "fight/play BJJ" a X level, shoot at USPSA X class level) are worthy, but not seeing the need to pay someone to tell me I'm at that level.

But if it keeps you accountable and gives you a goal to aim for, then go for it.

[Mr Pink]

I think this is a great idea, especially for folks who were in the military or are still in the military. It's VERY difficult to stay motivated when you PCS and have to start over again or when the military doesn't have a belt/ranking system. I think this is the answer to that. I've seen people at the Blue belt level for years but because they moved/PCS'd, they haven't been promoted. I also knew a Brown Belt that was crushing Black Belts for 2 years at his new duty station, and when he moved again, no promotion. Again, I think this will help prevent that.

Additionally, when moving and starting over it's hard to stay motivated and also think this will, keep people motivated to be accountable to someone.

Finally, with all of the issues that vets go through when they separate, I think this will continue on with a sense of belonging, give them goals and something to look forward to.

[Flamingo]

I'm not hating on this like a lot of people hated on the Gracies Garage thing and were outraged at people earning a blue belt online without a proper IBJJ affiliated instructor to train them. But...

I might be fine if you want accountability (sort of, you can still quit) and a set of goals to achieve. But the lower belts are worth what you paid for them. Presumably you are already paying a BJJ instructor, so now you pay for the privilege of someone entirely different watching of video and saying "yep, he won that match." Or for someone to watch a video of you pressing X amount and saying "yep, you pressed X amount?" And you pay for someone to watch a video of you shooting a USPSA match and guess your skill level? Practiscore will tell you that in a few hours.

The objectives (strength standards, "fight/play BJJ" a X level, shoot at USPSA X class level) are worthy, but not seeing the need to pay someone to tell me I'm at that level.

But if it keeps you accountable and gives you a goal to aim for, then go for it.

I think it is like a lot of things... if something doesent have value to you don't pay for it, but $35 bucks for a year is pretty cheap. I can not eat lunch out two days and it is more than covered.

I like that there is a set standard. I guess I could sandbag and only fight old guys like myself, but having experts say you are at X level has some value to me.