PMO For Duty-Carry

[Watcher251]

I'm looking for some input from you guys: my agency is pretty new to the PMO for duty-carry and I'm looking to purchase a few for my local office to issue to some of the more squared-away guys as guinea pigs.

I was looking originally at the Holosun 509T, but then switched to the EPS... until I was talked out of it by the rep the other day. So, back to the 509T X2 Green. The optic will be going on Glock G17 Gen5 MOS pistols with Trijicon Suppressor-height sights and C&H Precision plates. One question I've got for y'all is, would you reconsider the EPS or stick with the 509T?

The other question is, for those of you who are carrying PMOs for duty carry (or even off-duty) what holsters are you finding work best with the optic. {Side note: we are also running WMLs - Surefire X300U}. We run street-clothes and must carry concealed so I'm trying to steer clear of some of the bulkier holsters (Safariland for instance).

Any feedback you guys are willing to give will be greatly appreciated.

[cpd2110]

I'm looking for some input from you guys: my agency is pretty new to the PMO for duty-carry and I'm looking to purchase a few for my local office to issue to some of the more squared-away guys as guinea pigs.

I was looking originally at the Holosun 509T, but then switched to the EPS... until I was talked out of it by the rep the other day. So, back to the 509T X2 Green. The optic will be going on Glock G17 Gen5 MOS pistols with Trijicon Suppressor-height sights and C&H Precision plates. One question I've got for y'all is, would you reconsider the EPS or stick with the 509T?

The other question is, for those of you who are carrying PMOs for duty carry (or even off-duty) what holsters are you finding work best with the optic. {Side note: we are also running WMLs - Surefire X300U}. We run street-clothes and must carry concealed so I'm trying to steer clear of some of the bulkier holsters (Safariland for instance).

Any feedback you guys are willing to give will be greatly appreciated.

I'm curious why the rep. recommended the 509t over the eps. For us we issued and trained our firearms instructors first. They did a year long study essentially as all of them are on SWAT and shoot monthly in all conditions. We felt that was our best way to gauge issues and use them as our initial test subjects. From that, based on our Indiana weather, we felt the enclosed optics were the best choice for patrol. The 509t and Acro's are the only currently approved optics. I am testing the Steiner MPS and it will likely be approved by the end of the year. A few others in our CID are testing open emitter units which may be approved for non-uniform carry (no final decision on that). We rolled out the new program this year and have had 3 classes. Officers get an approved list of equipment related to plates, sights and optics and they purchase them with department armorers installing. We also require a 3 day class and monthly quals for a year. We already pre-emptively switched to Gen 5 MOS Glocks and got Safariland 6390 RDS ALS holsters believing we would go the optic route. Socaldep is a good resource on mounting and we use the system he advocates and have had only success. Before him we had plates and units coming loose regularly. Good luck and I'm here for any questions. Between SWAT, firearms instructors and those who have been through the class I would estimate about 50 officers are running dots, most of which are 509t X2's. That is out of a force of 144 authorized officers.

[Watcher251]

I'm curious why the rep. recommended the 509t over the eps. For us we issued and trained our firearms instructors first. They did a year long study essentially as all of them are on SWAT and shoot monthly in all conditions. We felt that was our best way to gauge issues and use them as our initial test subjects. From that, based on our Indiana weather, we felt the enclosed optics were the best choice for patrol. The 509t and Acro's are the only currently approved optics. I am testing the Steiner MPS and it will likely be approved by the end of the year. A few others in our CID are testing open emitter units which may be approved for non-uniform carry (no final decision on that). We rolled out the new program this year and have had 3 classes. Officers get an approved list of equipment related to plates, sights and optics and they purchase them with department armorers installing. We also require a 3 day class and monthly quals for a year. We already pre-emptively switched to Gen 5 MOS Glocks and got Safariland 6390 RDS ALS holsters believing we would go the optic route. Socaldep is a good resource on mounting and we use the system he advocates and have had only success. Before him we had plates and units coming loose regularly. Good luck and I'm here for any questions. Between SWAT, firearms instructors and those who have been through the class I would estimate about 50 officers are running dots, most of which are 509t X2's. That is out of a force of 144 authorized officers.

Awesome! Thanks for the input! That was my plan as well. Initially, it will be myself and a few other instructors running the optics. Once we have a better grasp on it, we will look at outfitting other officers (if they request them).

[SoCalDep]

Carrying concealed will almost certainly mitigate the condensational fogging concerns with open emitter optics, but then there’s the general lint and debris that gets involved. The enclosed emitter is the easy button and I’m a huge fan. My Tennessee carry gun (which is concealed since I’m around 2,000 miles from my jurisdiction) is a G45 with an ACRO P-1 and my California carry gun is an M&P 2.0 with an ACRO P-2.

The relevant differences between the EPS and the 509T is size and footprint. If you’re having to run a full-size G17 with X300U then the “bulk” of the 509T is the least of your problems and you get a bigger window. I’d go 509T.

[Erick Gelhaus]

For concealed OWB with a pistol light, I'm using older Raven Concealment (or similar) - full-size M&P w/X300U. My new AIWB/OWB holsters with a smaller light are from JM Custom Kydex - M&P Compact w/TLR-7A;

I'm very solidly in the enclosed emitter camp, my preference is the Aimpoint Acro P2. The newer 509T gets solid reviews, though I did see (2nd hand) a few issues with the old one. Based on limited experience, I cannot currently support the MPS.

Edited to add: There are multiple lengthy threads in the optics section that are well worth the read.

[1Rangemaster]

I'm a supporter of enclosed emitters too. My personal choice is an ACRO P-2, but the Holosun 509T has been run by at least a couple of guys locally with no problems, one red and one green if I recall correctly. I believe Utah Highway Patrol are running them on Glocks. The 509s have a crossbar mount "borrowed" in concept from Aimpoint. I have it run the full size EPS, but have run the smaller carry on a G43X, no issues. I think folks see the crossbar design as more secure.
Holsters: for concealment for me, JMCK IWB3 for a single cell Streamlight. They make an OWB too.
The X300 is a big light relatively speaking. I have a Tenicor OWB for a Streamlight TLR7 (one cell) I find quite comfortable; they make one for X300s. No retention except friction on any of these. Safariland does make an ALS that's not completely out of the question w/retention.
I'll echo what others have said: mounting is critical. SoCalDep did us all tremendous service in working out a procedure for the mounting of plate and optic. Follow his work carefully.
The other piece is instruction/training/practice-get some and keep it up. Gunsite(@Erick Gelhaus teaches there) has an immersive program. Manufacturers-Aimpoint, Glock, I think* Trijicon, offer classes and there are private individuals.
You can go it alone, but a good class/instructor will shorten your learning curve.
Best of luck

[cpd2110]

We run Surefire x300’s with our guns. On the training I agree completely. I took a Steve Fisher one day rds class first. It’s very good for the initial get your feet wet training. Steve is a good instructor and it helped me get over my initial concerns as a long time iron sight shooter. We then hosted Aaron Cowan for his three day rds instructor class. Overall it was good but the first day classroom only was a waste. Range stuff was good and most of it is incorporated into our 3 day class that we do.

On our class, we started with 3 days but have the option of only 2 if a shooter is progressing nicely. Basically they test out at the end of day 2. They can attend day 3 if they want. Day 3 is now reserved for officers who might be struggling or who an instructor identifies as someone who needs more one on one time. The class is initially capped at 15 people, based on range space. We are working out the bugs thus first year and will work out the future of the program in the coming months.

[HCM]

I'm a supporter of enclosed emitters too. My personal choice is an ACRO P-2, but the Holosun 509T has been run by at least a couple of guys locally with no problems, one red and one green if I recall correctly. I believe Utah Highway Patrol are running them on Glocks. The 509s have a crossbar mount "borrowed" in concept from Aimpoint. I have it run the full size EPS, but have run the smaller carry on a G43X, no issues. I think folks see the crossbar design as more secure.
Holsters: for concealment for me, JMCK IWB3 for a single cell Streamlight. They make an OWB too.
The X300 is a big light relatively speaking. I have a Tenicor OWB for a Streamlight TLR7 (one cell) I find quite comfortable; they make one for X300s. No retention except friction on any of these. Safariland does make an ALS that's not completely out of the question w/retention.
I'll echo what others have said: mounting is critical. SoCalDep did us all tremendous service in working out a procedure for the mounting of plate and optic. Follow his work carefully.
The other piece is instruction/training/practice-get some and keep it up. Gunsite(@Erick Gelhaus teaches there) has an immersive program. Manufacturers-Aimpoint, Glock, I think* Trijicon, offer classes and there are private individuals.
You can go it alone, but a good class/instructor will shorten your learning curve.
Best of luck

Utah and Idaho state police are both currently running 9mm Glocks with the Holosun 509T. The Alaska state troopers are in the process of fielding Glock 9mm with 509T as well.

[HCM]

I'm looking for some input from you guys: my agency is pretty new to the PMO for duty-carry and I'm looking to purchase a few for my local office to issue to some of the more squared-away guys as guinea pigs.

I was looking originally at the Holosun 509T, but then switched to the EPS... until I was talked out of it by the rep the other day. So, back to the 509T X2 Green. The optic will be going on Glock G17 Gen5 MOS pistols with Trijicon Suppressor-height sights and C&H Precision plates. One question I've got for y'all is, would you reconsider the EPS or stick with the 509T?

The other question is, for those of you who are carrying PMOs for duty carry (or even off-duty) what holsters are you finding work best with the optic. {Side note: we are also running WMLs - Surefire X300U}. We run street-clothes and must carry concealed so I'm trying to steer clear of some of the bulkier holsters (Safariland for instance).

Any feedback you guys are willing to give will be greatly appreciated.


Just transitioned several hundred folks to SIG 320s with Romeo1PROs as part of our national (14,000 sworn) RDS transition.

If Holosun recommends the 509T over the EPS for duty I would listen. The Utah, Idaho, and now Alaska state police all issue Glocks with the 509T.

We were issuing the Streamlight TLR -1, safari land 6000 series ALS holsters for duty /overt use and the Comp Tac Warrior for plainclothes use.

Our Academy recently switched to issuing the Streamlight TLR7A and a Safariland 7000 series ALS duty holster.

I’ve been running a TLR7A by personal choice since they came out. It’s a much more realistic size for plainclothes use while still providing adequate light.

If you want /need retention Safariland makes “non duty” ALS and GLS holsters, Blackhawk makes the same in their T series though most of these conceal about as well as a box of Wheaties.

Aker has some leather RDS compatible plainclothes holsters including (I believe) some with thumb breaks.

Otherwise open top Kydex is the order of the day. Personally I’m running an IWB #2 and IWB #3 from JM Custom Kydex for the SIG with TLR7A. I ran the same holsters for my prior G17. For an agency purchase, the Raven concealment Perun is a great option for a Glock with both WML and RDS.

[1Rangemaster]

Sounds like a solid start-good!
I'm pretty sure Tony at JMCK can fix you up with holsters for the combo you're running.
Since I've got my feet up and poking around the 'net, I checked Tenicor and they have an X300 OWB: the "ARX SOL". They use a bit thicker plastic. Another note: need to have a check/maintenance schedule for the mounting (wiggle it-if it moves, no bueno)and the battery/function. I've been running an MPS(1st gen) for a month now and twice it's gone to "sleep". That requires a switch press. Steiner kinda fixed it with the next gen, but my point is batteries go dead. Another instructor had a battery go out, and caught it before a class. My thoughts currently are certainly checking in a yearly basis, and I'm leaning towards 6 months. Candidly, a fair number of personnel don't check their weapons and systems until qual time, to include cleaning or even if the dang things are loaded(!) As instructors we typically check status of systems; others need "assistance ". Of the enclosed emitters now, the ACRO P2 has a 2032 battery which has the most capacity. Along that line, get back up irons-most around here are using Ameriglo GL-429s(Glock).
Regards, and keep it up!

[1Rangemaster]

HCM SoCalDep , and anyone else who cares to comment:
Have you gentlemen set up a check schedule for the optic/mount, or are you doing everything at qual shooting?
Thanks in advance

[HCM]

HCM SoCalDep , and anyone else who cares to comment:
Have you gentlemen set up a check schedule for the optic/mount, or are you doing everything at qual shooting?
Thanks in advance

We recommend witness marking optic screws and advise our people to check they have a dot and that it is co-witnessed with their irons every day before they put on /holster the gun. Some will do that some will not.

We qualify quarterly and locally we’ve started them get on line and do a co-witness check before loading up for qualification.

We’ve seen three Romeo1PRO’s that had zero shift but all were due to internal issues rather than mounting and all were visibly off when the dot was checked via co-witness. The odd thing was all three shifted the dot low left vs co-witness resulting in hits high right. My first thought was that someone had zero the gun to their anticipation or grip error but all three officers are 90% or better shooters.

We are issuing Romeo1PRO and Optics which are direct mounted to the P320 slide. There are no plates, the screws used are fairly beefy and come with thread locker. While the Romeo one pro optic window can be vulnerable to drops and crush, the direct mounting system on the guns is very robust. I’ve not seen a mounting issue with the system. I think a more robust optic like the Romeo2 with this mounting system would be truly “duty ready.”

[1Rangemaster]

Thank you sir. I am a bit envious of your quarterly shooting schedule, but it addresses the issues of “systems check”. Maybe do the same on a 6 month schedule.
And certainly concur that direct mount is desirable-takes out one failure point. My understanding is that Glock has direct mill now for several optics-ACRO and Trijicon-with more coming for agency purchase.
You’ve got me thinking that maybe putting out a recommended routine of before duty drawing to a “sighted ready” on a safe backstop might be of value…)

[DpdG]

Small agency with only instructors/swat using optics so far- 320 Carry with TLR-7a and direct milled 509Tx2. Instructed daily checks are witness marks on mount screw and zero adjustment, confirm dot position relative to irons. Uniform holster is 7360RDS, plainclothes is Red River Tactical kydex pancake w/ SLS style retention.

[cpd2110]

HCM SoCalDep , and anyone else who cares to comment:
Have you gentlemen set up a check schedule for the optic/mount, or are you doing everything at qual shooting?
Thanks in advance

Our monthly qual requirement for the first year is partially to check for mounting issues and then to reinforce fundamentals with the dot.

[HCM]

Thank you sir. I am a bit envious of your quarterly shooting schedule, but it addresses the issues of “systems check”. Maybe do the same on a 6 month schedule.
And certainly concur that direct mount is desirable-takes out one failure point. My understanding is that Glock has direct mill now for several optics-ACRO and Trijicon-with more coming for agency purchase.
You’ve got me thinking that maybe putting out a recommended routine of before duty drawing to a “sighted ready” on a safe backstop might be of value…)

So part of that is an equipment check and part of that is to get them doing at least one rep per day of presenting the gun and finding the dot.

I actually recommend they do one drive presentation when they put the gun on for the day and one presentation when they take it out of the whole store to put it away at the end of the day.

[1Rangemaster]

So part of that is an equipment check and part of that is to get them doing at least one rep per day of presenting the gun and finding the dot.

I actually recommend they do one drive presentation when they put the gun on for the day and one presentation when they take it out of the whole store to put it away at the end of the day.

Do you recommend power off at storage, or have it constantly on?

With P1s, we powered off, but that was a bit awkward.

[HCM]

Do you recommend power off at storage, or have it constantly on?

With P1s, we powered off, but that was a bit awkward.

Constant on, though the R1P, R2 and R0 have shake awake and they should be in shake awake mode. Battery change every 6 months.

Recommended carry setting is one down from maximum. We recommend they turn it all the way up (dot will flash) then down 1.

If there is no dot during the daily check, remedial actions for end users are:

1) Ensure optic is on.
2) Tighten battery cap
3) change battery

If it still doesn’t work, iron sights, contact FI/Armorer.

[1Rangemaster]

Thanks for the detailed information.
It does seem like you’ve thought it through. I perform an Armorer check on my personal guns twice a year-around 4 July and New Years. Looks like a battery swap will be added to that checklist. Departments usually do yearly.

[HCM]

Thanks for the detailed information.
It does seem like you’ve thought it through. I perform an Armorer check on my personal guns twice a year-around 4 July and New Years. Looks like a battery swap will be added to that checklist. Departments usually do yearly.

Your optic and its battery size will dictate. We are using pistol optics that have 1632 batteries. For 2032 battery optics like our Aimpoint and SIG carbine optics we do battery changes once a year.

[1Rangemaster]

Yes, understood. I was focusing on pistol optics. I think one could use an annual schedule for 2032s in ACRO P2s and RMR2s, provided they aren’t run at full intensity. Some personnel may go to full intensity thinking more is better…
Thank you again for laying out your procedures.

[SoCalDep]

HCM and others have hit the main points, so I’ll just be redundant for the sake of not looking like I’m ignoring...

We have a tradition at my department of having too few to support too many. Formal inspection/maintenance is that Goodfellas laugh meme. Maintenance is entirely up to the individual unless the optic needs to be removed to change the battery, since we (our unit) requires that all optics are mounted or re-mounted by us to maintain consistency and identify issues. That said, we’re not issuing optics department-wide and it’s the motivated who perform at a high level that get to participate so there’s that. We have a daily maintenence checklist which consists of:


Check optic/slide for looseness
Check mounting screws (look at indicator marks)
Check window for cracks, damage, debris, and dot brightness
Check manual optic adjustment if applicable (RMR’s revert to auto adjust after 16hrs, so this bumps it back into manual, and it’s a verification the dot is on the setting you want (which for me and most optics is one step down from full brightness).
Reference dot to iron sights to verify zero
Application of glass/optic treatment such as anti-fog if necessary


RMRs with Duracells seem to go one year with no issues, and we’ve only had a couple and well over a year come back having died. Most are good about changing them out proactively. The Holosun can vary. The circle-dot will use more power and it’s a smaller battery, so depending on reticle and brightness I’m recommending one to three months. With SROs it’s kinda the same thing. I’ve had ‘em die in 1.5 months and live for 6-8 months depending on use. With Costco Duracell 12 packs of 2032s being $9 I say switch monthly and worry not.

I would switch ACRO P-1 batteries monthly and run high or one level lower with no problems. My P-2 is now almost 14 months, mostly at one-step down from full brightness. It’s on my carry gun now, so the responsible maintain your lifesaving equipment part of me wants to change it to be safe. The “let’s see how far this can go” test and experiment part of me wants to leave it. As I actually put honest thoughts on paper, I’ll probably change it tomorrow and test battery voltage just for a data point. It went well over a year - I’m happy.

HCMs comments on Sig optics is similar to mine. I don’t recall any zero shifts that I’ve seen, but I now call the 1Pro a “lazy” optic because there have been a few occasions it doesn’t want to wake up and work. Usually a good smack gets them going... for real. As for the mounting I’ve never seen a Sig optic come loose from a Sig pistol when it was mounted at the factory. It’s a good system for that.

[HCM]

HCM and others have hit the main points, so I’ll just be redundant for the sake of not looking like I’m ignoring...

We have a tradition at my department of having too few to support too many. Formal inspection/maintenance is that Goodfellas laugh meme. Maintenance is entirely up to the individual unless the optic needs to be removed to change the battery, since we (our unit) requires that all optics are mounted or re-mounted by us to maintain consistency and identify issues. That said, we’re not issuing optics department-wide and it’s the motivated who perform at a high level that get to participate so there’s that. We have a daily maintenence checklist which consists of:


Check optic/slide for looseness
Check mounting screws (look at indicator marks)
Check window for cracks, damage, debris, and dot brightness
Check manual optic adjustment if applicable (RMR’s revert to auto adjust after 16hrs, so this bumps it back into manual, and it’s a verification the dot is on the setting you want (which for me and most optics is one step down from full brightness).
Reference dot to iron sights to verify zero
Application of glass/optic treatment such as anti-fog if necessary


RMRs with Duracells seem to go one year with no issues, and we’ve only had a couple and well over a year come back having died. Most are good about changing them out proactively. The Holosun can vary. The circle-dot will use more power and it’s a smaller battery, so depending on reticle and brightness I’m recommending one to three months. With SROs it’s kinda the same thing. I’ve had ‘em die in 1.5 months and live for 6-8 months depending on use. With Costco Duracell 12 packs of 2032s being $9 I say switch monthly and worry not.

I would switch ACRO P-1 batteries monthly and run high or one level lower with no problems. My P-2 is now almost 14 months, mostly at one-step down from full brightness. It’s on my carry gun now, so the responsible maintain your lifesaving equipment part of me wants to change it to be safe. The “let’s see how far this can go” test and experiment part of me wants to leave it. As I actually put honest thoughts on paper, I’ll probably change it tomorrow and test battery voltage just for a data point. It went well over a year - I’m happy.

HCMs comments on Sig optics is similar to mine. I don’t recall any zero shifts that I’ve seen, but I now call the 1Pro a “lazy” optic because there have been a few occasions it doesn’t want to wake up and work. Usually a good smack gets them going... for real. As for the mounting I’ve never seen a Sig optic come loose from a Sig pistol when it was mounted at the factory. It’s a good system for that.

Re: Lazy optics - sometimes recoil works too- I think I posted elsewhere we recently had an R1P on one of our longer term guns which required a battery change. The optic didn’t want to turn on afterwards but the officer chose to qualify with irons to get it knocked out. The first stage of our qualification course is three strings of fire at the 1.5 yard line from a bent elbow position, below the the eye line (1, 2, then 3 rounds in 2 second facings/par). Shooter fires his first six rounds then moves to the 3 yard line where we start bringing the gun up to a level and “Que Milagro” his dot has returned like the prodigal son.

[1Rangemaster]

Thanks gents, for your reports and thoughts.

[Watcher251]

Candidly, a fair number of personnel don't check their weapons and systems until qual time, to include cleaning or even if the dang things are loaded(!) As instructors we typically check status of systems; others need "assistance ".

Yep. Battle that problem routinely... Not sure some would even know how to disassemble to clean at this point...

[Watcher251]

Thanks for everyone's input - I really appreciate it and it's exactly why I came here with the request. Really great stuff from you guys! Thanks again!