Went Girsan instead of Beretta

[MichaelOrick]

Have had the itch for a Beretta 92 again.

Was issued an M9 from 87-98, owned a few of my own since 86.

A few QC issues here and there but all reliable.

The Turkish 92s have been showing up in our classes and working fine for a few years now.

Looked at a M92FS for $650 and a Regard for $350. The Beretta had a sticky mag catch and the slide would not lock open with the empty mag about half the time. Same as another I looked at last month; assumed that was a fluke. WTF Beretta? No more LAT (lot acceptance testing) for govt sales and this is what happens? I'm just unlucky?

The Regard was OK so it went home with me. Sometimes that's all it takes.

It has a modified locking block that Girsan says is tested too at least 15K. We'll see. I'm 67; I probably won't live long enough to shoot it enough to find out.

Mec-Gar M9 17 round mags work fine in it. So does Rem, Fed, Speer, Win, Magtech, and some Turkish ammo I picked up with the money I saved.

Has worked well enough for Turkish cops and soldiers (and some others), will probably work for me too.

I'll bet my life on it and sleep like a baby.

[MichaelOrick]

Mec-Gar M9 17 round mags work fine in it.

I meant 18 round mags.

Was also looking at the Girsan MCP35 HP clone, but the manual says no +P so that was a no-go.

[LockedBreech]

I'm a Beretta nerd but I admit I've considered grabbing the Regard a few times, it seems like a pretty well done copy.

I still think it would probably be worth it to swap out a Beretta 3rd-gen locking block if you find a good sale on one, as that's really the only common failure point of the design.

[FrankB]

My son bought a Girsan Regard a few years ago, and it’s run 100%.

[MichaelOrick]

I'm a Beretta nerd but I admit I've considered grabbing the Regard a few times, it seems like a pretty well done copy.

I still think it would probably be worth it to swap out a Beretta 3rd-gen locking block if you find a good sale on one, as that's really the only common failure point of the design.

No can do. The Girsan block/slide have different angled surfaces; the straight Beretta block will not work. Does not have the FS slide cut and bigger hammer pivot pin either.

Seems to have worked for the Turkish police/military on their Girsan and MEKE made 92 copies.

The Turks are replacing their M9 (primary) and CZ75 (secondary) copies with 100,000 new pistols from SAR (military) and 50,000 from Canik (police).

Anything can wear out if rode hard and put away wet often enough.

"The only real complaint I had about the course was that my M9 was in desperate need of a new recoil spring, as it had a tendency to lock the slide open every shot with certain magazines. Luckily, the time limits were generous enough that I could still fire the string accurately with time to spare, even if I had to smack the magazine every shot."


https://www.gunnuts.net/2015/07/03/thoughts-on-usaf-handgun-training/

[LockedBreech]

No can do. The Girsan block/slide have different angled surfaces; the straight Beretta block will not work. Does not have the FS slide cut and bigger hammer pivot pin either.

Seems to have worked for the Turkish police/military on their Girsan and MEKE made 92 copies.

The Turks are replacing their M9 and CZ75 copies with 100,000 new pistols from SAR (military) and 50,000 from Canik (police).

Anything can wear out if rode hard and put away wet often enough.

"The only real complaint I had about the course was that my M9 was in desperate need of a new recoil spring, as it had a tendency to lock the slide open every shot with certain magazines. Luckily, the time limits were generous enough that I could still fire the string accurately with time to spare, even if I had to smack the magazine every shot."


https://www.gunnuts.net/2015/07/03/thoughts-on-usaf-handgun-training/

Very interesting, thank you for the info!

[Moped]

I’ve been looking at the Regard, but have pulled the trigger yet. I picked up the Tisas Fatih last year. It’s a clone of the Original Beretta 84. It’s been a very reliable pistol, after the initial break in. I’ve been waiting on someone to post a review on the Regard, so I’m interested in your thoughts and observations. How do you like the finger grooves? I find them a bit of a turn off and I think they limit changing grips out.

I know on the Fatih, I’ve not been able to the swap grips out with panels made for the beretta 84. The grip panel screw holes are ever so slightly off.

[NuJudge]

Langdon Tactical offers a trigger job in a bag for several pistols, including the Beretta 92. On the 92, it causes the double action motion of the hammer to go in a significantly longer arc, which allows the same energy to be stored in the hammer with a significantly lighter hammer spring, resulting in a much lower DA trigger pull. Langdon's 92 trigger bar also has a much shorter trigger reset.

It would be worth your trouble to ask Langdon if his trigger bar also works on the Regard.

[MichaelOrick]

The finger grooves do not bother me.

I like it the way it is, and it will stay that way.

It does fit in all my M9A1 holsters.

The M92 is a proven design that has passed numerous comprehensive trials. Beretta has demonstrated they can produce it to mil-spec standards. So has Girsan.

Is the block different to make it better, or because you have to replace it with theirs and not somebody else's? Beats me.

I know what this is, and what it is not.

The Girsan Regard MC appears to be a good enough M9A1 at about half the price of the Beretta ($390 v $730).

I can live with that.

[JRB]

The finger grooves do not bother me.

I like it the way it is, and it will stay that way.

It does fit in all my M9A1 holsters.

The M92 is a proven design that has passed numerous comprehensive trials. Beretta has demonstrated they can produce it to mil-spec standards. So has Girsan.

Is the block different to make it better, or because you have to replace it with theirs and not somebody else's? Beats me.

I know what this is, and what it is not.

The Girsan Regard MC appears to be a good enough M9A1 at about half the price of the Beretta ($390 v $730).

I can live with that.

Not to be 'That Guy' - well, one of my E5's gave me a 'That Guy' tab morale patch as a gag gift when I left my position as a Platoon Sergeant last year, so maybe I am 'That Guy' :)

Two things:

-The M92 is a Yugoslavian short AK. There is no Beretta M92. It's a Beretta 92 (or variant thereof) or a Beretta M9 (or variant thereof). Distinctions like this matter in technical discussions.

- Girsan has met *Turkish* military requirements. Some militaries or branches (Air Force cough cough) have incredibly specific and demanding specs on some things. Other militaries simply procure via the 'can we get more pistols? Sure! Here they are and they're even made here in our country! Heck Yeah! Method.
I think you'd find some value in reading the whole story on the M9's adoption and the Sig P320/M17 trials. Despite the real shady shit surrounding the Sig selection, the M17's have been surprisingly good and resilient so far. Time will tell if they can survive decades of abuse like a Beretta M9.
But I'd bet against something like the Girsan surviving the tender abuse of idiot 2LT's or 240B gunners for very long. As you doubtlessly know from your time in the same green pajamas, the abuse suffered by an arms room weapon and a personally owned handgun tend to be two very different things, though, so hopefully your Girsan will continue to serve you well.

For anyone else considering this - all Beretta 92A1's (not the M9A1!) have the light rail and a front dovetailed sight, and they're all made in Italy (last I saw, anyway) So if you're worried about QC/QA woes from Beretta's new Tennessee factory, look for a 92A1. IMHO it's worth the money to stick with Beretta.

But as far as clones are concerned, I'd be interested to see a Girsan and a Taurus PT92 in a 2000 round face-off test. :)

[MichaelOrick]

Not to be 'That Guy' - well, one of my E5's gave me a 'That Guy' tab morale patch as a gag gift when I left my position as a Platoon Sergeant last year, so maybe I am 'That Guy' :)

Two things:

-The M92 is a Yugoslavian short AK. There is no Beretta M92. It's a Beretta 92 (or variant thereof) or a Beretta M9 (or variant thereof). Distinctions like this matter in technical discussions.

- Girsan has met *Turkish* military requirements.

I can live with that.

I served with a senior NCO who worked the USAF trials in the 70s, as well as the JSSAP in the 80s. They even looked at converting the M15 revolvers to 9mm...

I was there for the Chair Forces Force's transition from M15/M1911A1 to M9/M11.

I worked with Turkish troops for 3 years.

The Girsan and MEKE 92s passed tests as tough as the M9 and M11 did.

The Sarsilmaz and Caniks replacing them passed tests tougher than the M17/18 did.

If their pistols are as good as their drones, I can live with that too. ;)

[JRB]

I can live with that.

I served with a senior NCO who worked the USAF trials in the 70s, as well as the JSSAP in the 80s. They even looked at converting the M15 revolvers to 9mm...

I was there for the Chair Forces Force's transition from M15/M1911A1 to M9/M11.

I worked with Turkish troops for 3 years.

The Girsan and MEKE 92s passed tests as tough as the M9 and M11 did.

The Sarsilmaz and Caniks replacing them passed tests tougher than the M17/18 did.

If their pistols are as good as their drones, I can live with that too. ;)

Got any links to the reports or details you can share on those tests? I'd be very interested in reading those. Based on what I've seen from Turkish made clones of other weapons like HK roller locked guns and Benelli shotguns, I'd be surprised if their pistol copies were substantially better.
Their own bespoke designs, especially the Canik, seem to be much better.

[MichaelOrick]

Got any links to the reports or details you can share on those tests? I'd be very interested in reading those. Based on what I've seen from Turkish made clones of other weapons like HK roller locked guns and Benelli shotguns, I'd be surprised if their pistol copies were substantially better.
Their own bespoke designs, especially the Canik, seem to be much better.

I did not say they were better. I said the tests were as tough/tougher.

I remember a 30K or more endurance test as opposed to the 5-12K in M9/M11/M17/18 for example.

I trust them to be good enough for me. YMMV.

Might find something under Original Indigenous Project.

[HCountyGuy]

...
The Girsan and MEKE 92s passed tests as tough as the M9 and M11 did.

The Sarsilmaz and Caniks replacing them passed tests tougher than the M17/18 did.

...

Yeah, I'd certainly like to see some data for tests regarding these claims, because until proven otherwise I'm calling straight BS.

I can distinctly remember selling some Girsans to customers who wanted a Beretta without paying Beretta money. Mags were giving issues and at least one of their more fancy looking ones (all I remember was it was blue grips that had a see-through cutout) had extractor issues out of the gate.

As for Sarsilmaz being anything of quality? Once again, show me the data because those things are cheap POSes from my experiences with them as well as customers who bought them and would almost immediately (within 2-3 weeks) come back trying to sell them back.

Everyone wants something to do product "X"'s job at a cheaper price, but 99/100 you're going to find out with a quickness why the knock-off is so much cheaper.

[MichaelOrick]

Do what makes you happy; I am.

Some of you need a $2,000 1911 to feel secure; I'm fine with a $200 Maverick shotgun.

It's good enough for me; if it's not good enough for you, I can live with that too.

[Moshjath]

Personally I’d rather buy a product supporting fellow Americans in Tennessee than support Erdogan’s defense industries even if there is a premium.

[LockedBreech]

Do what makes you happy; I am.

Some of you need a $2,000 1911 to feel secure; I'm fine with a $200 Maverick shotgun.

It's good enough for me; if it's not good enough for you, I can live with that too.

I think it's okay to have a conversation about the Turkish firearms industry when talking about a Turkish pistol without anybody being insecure. It's great that it works for you and I've heard great things about the Regards, I bet it's going to be an awesome gun.

Critical takes aren't bad things though. Sorta like the Springfield XDs. They're pretty decent guns for $300, but the small parts breakages and small grip safety are valid criticisms. Without those criticisms, people who love the platform might not know to grab a Powder River Precision striker retainer pin, for instance.

I also confess, I'd like to see the testing just because I'm a nerd for that kinda thing...

[HCountyGuy]

By all means, you do you at the end of the day. However, making pretty bold assertions that a cheap Turkish knock-off is anywhere close to as good as the product it’s copying without providing some objective data to back up the claim is going to get called out here of all places.

We’ve seen maligned guns have a revival, see the PX4. Hell, even Taurus seems to be getting their act together. But don’t expect us to just take your word that some such guns are “jUsT aS gOoD” as those with significant track records without some manner of proof.

[HCM]

By all means, you do you at the end of the day. However, making pretty bold assertions that a cheap Turkish knock-off is anywhere close to as good as the product it’s copying without providing some objective data to back up the claim is going to get called out here of all places.

We’ve seen maligned guns have a revival, see the PX4. Hell, even Taurus seems to be getting their act together. But don’t expect us to just take your word that some such guns are “jUsT aS gOoD” as those with significant track records without some manner of proof.

“Maligned” implies the issues reported with early PX4s were not real. However, I am aware that the early PX4s, particularly those issued to CBSA (Canada’s version of CBP) were real. They were shit shows. I’m glad Beretta fixed what ever was wrong with the early PX4s but it’s revival was due to Beretta making inline changes to the guns.

Beretta is not the first (and won’t be the last) gun company to quietly fix issues with inline changes (looking at you SIG) without publicly acknowledging the issue or the fix.

I do agree that “just as good as” claims require data and are also dependent on your purpose.

That said Turkish guns vary in quality. Look at the various Turkish Benelli M4 shotgun clones, some of which are exceptional values and some of which are crap. They are all Turkish clones of the same gun but the quality varies from one maker to another.,

The Girsan P35 clones have been decent and having built 100k or more licensed B92 clones for the Turkish Govt probably didn’t hurt.

I seem to recall there was an old thread here on PF by a Canadian USPSA shooter who put a fair number of rounds rounds through a Gerson Beretta 92 clone without issue. Not sure if they were available here in the US at the time.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14496-Girsan-Regard-Yavuz-Compact-Beretta-92-Clone

Another generally positive thread here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35635-Girsan-Regard

[HCM]

Personally I’d rather buy a product supporting fellow Americans in Tennessee than support Erdogan’s defense industries even if there is a premium.

Probably the best argument in the thread.

Though I never saw a problematic 92 series pistol until the move to TN.

[JRB]

Personally I’d rather buy a product supporting fellow Americans in Tennessee than support Erdogan’s defense industries even if there is a premium.

Definitely.

[Hot Sauce]

Got any links to the reports or details you can share on those tests? I'd be very interested in reading those.


Yeah, I'd certainly like to see some data for tests regarding these claims, because until proven otherwise I'm calling straight BS.

The chirps of the crickets are rather deafening.

[MichaelOrick]

But don’t expect us to just take your word that some such guns are “jUsT aS gOoD” as those with significant track records without some manner of proof.

Never said that.

I did say good enough. And it still is for me. So are a lot of others many of you would never, ever, consider.

I can live with that.

Here are the current Turkish service pistols. They like pistols with safeties. IIRC they may get over 200,000 of them.

I could live with these too.

[MichaelOrick]

The chirps of the crickets are rather deafening.

Already answered:

"I did not say they were better. I said the tests were as tough/tougher.

I remember a 30K or more endurance test as opposed to the 5-12K in M9/M11/M17/18 for example.

I trust them to be good enough for me. YMMV.

Might find something under Original Indigenous Project."

SAR mentioned 50K - 150K endurance tests in some press releases. That does beat the 21K (7K x 3) XM9 tests or the 12K XM17 tests IIRC.

My memory is all I have and it's enough for me. If you can find more/less, go for it.

[JRB]

Already answered:

"I did not say they were better. I said the tests were as tough/tougher.

I remember a 30K or more endurance test as opposed to the 5-12K in M9/M11/M17/18 for example.

I trust them to be good enough for me. YMMV.

Might find something under Original Indigenous Project."

SAR mentioned 50K - 150K endurance tests in some press releases. That does beat the 21K (7K x 3) XM9 tests or the 12K XM17 tests IIRC.

My memory is all I have and it's enough for me. If you can find more/less, go for it.

For the sake of clarity - I said I'd be surprised if Turkish clones of common handgun models like the Girsan were better in quality than the the various Turkish clones of shotguns and HK style roller-lock guns; both of which have a pretty spotty reputation overall. I did not suggest that you were saying or implying that the Girsan is better than a factory Beretta.

[MichaelOrick]

Are the SIGs and Berettas you can buy as good as the ones the govt gets?

Beats me. Despite LAT (lot acceptance testing) I saw probs with some M9s and M11s. I've seen and had probs with commercial P320 M18s.

So far (1K+ rounds), this Girsan is better than two Beretta 92s I've owned in the past and two I've seen recently. Better than my most recent SIG.

Lady Luck: la belle dame sans merci?

It was purchased to be a fun gun, and it's been loads of fun. Would I bet my life on it for EDC/home defense too? Yes.

While we're at it, I trust my Hungarian made Grozer bows as much as my American made Bears too. I've done better with them. ;)

[WobblyPossum]

The commercial Beretta 92s you can buy are actually better than the military M9s were. The commercial guns had updated locking blocks which were much more durable. They also didn’t come with the crappy phosphate finish Checkmate magazines the Army asked for. My understanding was that the Marine Corps M9A1s were just as good as the commercial ones.

With Sigs, I’d probably trust a government contract one over a commercial gun but they’re all kind of iffy out of the box until you vet them individually. My agency recently announced that only LE/Mil SKUs (the ones where the SKU starts with “W”) of the P365 were authorized as personally owned weapons. Supposedly, Sig told the agency that only the W-SKU guns should be used for duty purposes.

[MichaelOrick]

To lighten it up...

Best 92 movie?

My vote is "The Replacement Killers"?

Chow Yun Fat with four 92s! One in each hand and two in his belt!

Mira Sorvino with a 92!

[JRB]

The commercial Beretta 92s you can buy are actually better than the military M9s were. The commercial guns had updated locking blocks which were much more durable. They also didn’t come with the crappy phosphate finish Checkmate magazines the Army asked for. My understanding was that the Marine Corps M9A1s were just as good as the commercial ones.

With Sigs, I’d probably trust a government contract one over a commercial gun but they’re all kind of iffy out of the box until you vet them individually. My agency recently announced that only LE/Mil SKUs (the ones where the SKU starts with “W”) of the P365 were authorized as personally owned weapons. Supposedly, Sig told the agency that only the W-SKU guns should be used for duty purposes.

Worse still, Beretta repeatedly offered to provide the updated locking blocks and other improvements to the existing M9 contract and support contracts at no cost - and the .mil machine and TACOM gnomes said no because it didn't exactly match the TDP. So the NSN'd locking blocks I replaced in several M9's were contract-made Gen I locking blocks manufactured by some other outfit and not Beretta. Aside from some 'shit happens' physical damage that'd happen to any neglected service weapon, the biggest PITA I fought as an Arms Room dweeb was those old phosphated magazines. They just kept turning up no matter how many I removed from service. I'd bet that 95%+ of the malfunctions or stoppages I saw with M9's during qual ranges or fam fires were all 100% magazine-induced from those old magazines.
Not unlike similar experiences seeing old black follower or green follower 30 round mags showing up in M4's having problems, too...

The M9A1's TDP was updated to use the Gen III locking block and all the other good stuff. Just needed a dovetailed front sight and it would have been truly excellent.

Interestingly enough, the new Sig M17's I've seen have been running pretty well overall, very few issues that aren't user-induced. The 91F's (Armament repair guys) rarely mess with the trigger pack itself, though. If anything goes wrong in that it gets shipped to a -30 or -40 level depot to be 'rebuilt' and the -20 level maintainers will swap grip frames for polymer damage but nothing else. At least, IME with my limited weird little footprint.

[JRB]

To lighten it up...

Best 92 movie?

My vote is "The Replacement Killers"?

Chow Yun Fat with four 92s! One in each hand and two in his belt!

Mira Sorvino with a 92!

That's a solid choice!

The Beretta 92 series became iconic for me after seeing Die Hard... followed shortly by the Lethal Weapon series!

Later on, The Boondock Saints did the lord's work with some 92's. :)

[WobblyPossum]

To lighten it up...

Best 92 movie?

My vote is "The Replacement Killers"?

Chow Yun Fat with four 92s! One in each hand and two in his belt!

Mira Sorvino with a 92!


That's a solid choice!

The Beretta 92 series became iconic for me after seeing Die Hard... followed shortly by the Lethal Weapon series!

Later on, The Boondock Saints did the lord's work with some 92's. :)

Man, I forgot all about The Replacement Killers. Solid flick, for sure. I’m going to also have to vote for Die Hard, though. John McClane put in some solid work with his 92.

[HCM]

To lighten it up...

Best 92 movie?

My vote is "The Replacement Killers"?

Chow Yun Fat with four 92s! One in each hand and two in his belt!

Mira Sorvino with a 92!

Mere American rip off of A better tomorrow, City on fire, and Hard Boiled etc. for people too lazy to read subtitles.

[WobblyPossum]

Mere American rip off of A better tomorrow, City on fire, and Hard Boiled etc. for people too lazy to read subtitles.

I loved Hard Boiled. This thread is making me want to watch some old John Woo flicks. Even some of his early US films had prominent Beretta 92 action like Hard Target and Face/Off.

[LockedBreech]

To lighten it up...

Best 92 movie?

My vote is "The Replacement Killers"?

Chow Yun Fat with four 92s! One in each hand and two in his belt!

Mira Sorvino with a 92!

Die Hard is the all-time standard bearer, to me.

Honorable mentions: Jason Bourne (several of the movies, in spots), Behind Enemy Lines, Independence Day (killed an Alien!), and a whole lot of video games I've played, notably Capcom titles Resident Evil and Dino Crisis (the dumbest possible name for the best bit of scary dinosaur fiction outside of Jurassic Park).

[MichaelOrick]

Mere American rip off of A better tomorrow, City on fire, and Hard Boiled etc. for people too lazy to read subtitles.

Thank you!

Just finished A Better Tomorrow. Wow. Will look for the others.

I watch everything with CC so subtitles are not a problem.

How about 92s on TV?

Spenser for Hire, Walker Texas Ranger, Stargate SG1/Atlantis and Supernatural come to mind.

[HCM]

Thank you!

Just finished A Better Tomorrow. Wow. Will look for the others.

I watch everything with CC so subtitles are not a problem.

How about 92s on TV?

Spenser for Hire, Walker Texas Ranger, Stargate SG1/Atlantis and Supernatural come to mind.

Supposedly the Berettas were so ubiquitous in Movies and TV because they function particularly well with blanks.

[Caballoflaco]

Supposedly the Berettas were so ubiquitous in Movies and TV because they function particularly well with blanks.

Yup, grind off the lugs on the locking block and you don’t have much mass left to cycle according to an old Forgotten Weapons video featuring a Canadian movie armorer.

[JAD]

Mere American rip off of A better tomorrow, City on fire, and Hard Boiled etc. for people too lazy to read subtitles.

Hard Boiled is the world's best Type 54 movie, though.

And while all of those are good, the quintessential 92 movie is The Killer.

[45dotACP]

OK don't laugh at me, but Mission Impossible 2 and 3 were movies that got me interested in the Beretta 92

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[MichaelOrick]

Can't find anything specific online about Turkish service pistol trials for the 92 copies.

This what I could find from makers of the pistols:

https://www.girsan.com/en/references-sID12

https://www.girsan.com/en/yardim/tests-s1

https://www.yavuzfirearms.com/accordion/testler/1

Some tests tougher than the M9 tests (as I said) some not.

I never said the Girsan was "as good as" a Beretta.

I did say it was "good enough" for me, and it still is. So is my 15-year-old S&W 908. It does not have the testing and references the Girsan does.

I remember Beretta press releases touting LAT w 210K fired through 42 M9s (5K each) with a MRBS of 19K. I doubt Girsan can do that, but I don't need it to to be happy with it or trust it.

Not sure if that means I'm OK, eating crow, or just pushing it around on my plate...

Thanks for the movie recommendations.

[zaitcev]

Though I never saw a problematic 92 series pistol until the move to TN.

The 92X Performance guns that were drilled too deep were made in Italy. But you're not wrong, it occurred after the TN move.