Who does the best carbine/rifle classes?

[IDontDoQuests]

Among the Pistol community, gents like Ernest Langdon, Scott Jedlinski, Gabe White, etc are known as some of the "go to" guys for a pistol class. I'm starting to get into rifles again, the last time I actually touched anything resembling an AR15 was when I was in the Marines with an M16A4, and I want to get back into the rifle/carbine game. Any recommendations for instructors/classes? I want to know who the "go to" guys are.

[LittleLebowski]

There’s no one singular answer. A lot depends on where you are located and what your goals are. There are many great instructors. Honestly, you’ll learn more about shooting per se from a pistol class, though.

[IDontDoQuests]

There’s no one singular answer. A lot depends on where you are located and what your goals are. There are many great instructors. Honestly, you’ll learn more about shooting per se from a pistol class, though.

I'm sure it's hard to give a singular answer, which is why I wanted opinions and recommendations, a list of names that I could go through and choose from. I've taken pretty much every class from the big names regarding handguns and compete at a high level in USPSA. I just wanted one carbine course to get my feet wet again and take it from there.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm sure it's hard to give a singular answer, which is why I wanted opinions and recommendations, a list of names that I could go through and choose from. I've taken pretty much every class from the big names regarding handguns and compete at a high level in USPSA. I just wanted one carbine course to get my feet wet again and take it from there.

All depends on your location. There’s several excellent instructors.

[IDontDoQuests]

All depends on your location. There’s several excellent instructors.

No it doesn't. I can travel.

[Default.mp3]

I personally would consider for a level 2 carbine class:

Chuck Pressburg (Presscheck Consulting)
Bill Blowers (Tap-Rack Tactical)
Mike Pannone (CTT Solutions)
Pat McNamara (TMACS Inc)
Buck Doyle (Follow Through Consulting)
Michael Green (Green Ops)
Kyle Defoor (Defoor Proformance Shooting)
Steve Fisher (Sentinel Concepts)
John McPhee (SOB Tactical)
Matt Pranka (X-Ray Alpha)
Frank Proctor (Frank Proctor Shooting, formerly Way of the Gun)


Level 1s I don't think there's too much to be gained by going to if you've already had prior training and are now able to shoot USPSA at a high level. I'm aware that institutional training typically isn't the greatest, but with your USPSA experience, I would think that you're organically going to be able to figure out the basics when supplemented with some basic online education.

[GJM]

I'm sure it's hard to give a singular answer, which is why I wanted opinions and recommendations, a list of names that I could go through and choose from. I've taken pretty much every class from the big names regarding handguns and compete at a high level in USPSA. I just wanted one carbine course to get my feet wet again and take it from there.

In the past, I did a class with Aaron Brekke, Brian Nelson and Tim Yackley at TPC that was excellent. Unfortunately Max Leograndis was traveling that week, as I am always interested in a class with him.

[Clusterfrack]

I've heard great things about PFC https://pfctraining.com. I'm going to be doing a class with them soon. Cdub_NW

[LittleLebowski]

No it doesn't. I can travel.

Do you have a military or competitive preference for training?

[vcdgrips]

I would not hesitate to take a level one with the right instructor i.e. John McPhee and Paul Howe. Both guys who use "video" to record and critique the mechanics of their students.

I would also note that absent a "connection" or certain prior classes with certain folks, many instructors can be hesitant to enroll a student in their level 2 class off the street.

Let us know what you do and why you do it.

[Guerrero]

No personal experience, but I've heard a couple of our SME's here recommend Paul Howe and Kyle Lamb.

[okie john]

Pat McNamara (TMACS Inc)

+1.

Mac and I overlapped as junior NCOs in 3/1 SFG(A) for several months before he went to the dark side. I trained with him again a few years ago. Still rock solid.

To get the most of it, don’t go in there cold.

There are several good threads around the web on how to prep for your first class. Read and heed.
Take good ammo and a rifle that runs. There’s too much goodness to waste that time fixing avoidable problems.
Read and heed AARs of his classes, which are available online. Some cover his POI but none match his instruction and that’s where the magic lies. They also list the gear you need to bring.
Study his basic drills on YouTube. Execute them slowly, focusing on mechanics. You’ll shoot them in class but his input will radically improve your performance. My best-ever El Pres—which included an unscheduled Tap, Rack, Bang—occurred in his class.
Take plenty of water.
Sometimes he leads class PT after the Training Day is over. He’ll smoke your ass but it’s worth it.


Okie John

[SecondsCount]

I really want to take a class from Kyle Defoor based on the AARs that I have read.

[HCM]

I personally would consider for a level 2 carbine class:

Chuck Pressburg (Presscheck Consulting)
Bill Blowers (Tap-Rack Tactical)
Mike Pannone (CTT Solutions)
Pat McNamara (TMACS Inc)
Buck Doyle (Follow Through Consulting)
Michael Green (Green Ops)
Kyle Defoor (Defoor Proformance Shooting)
Steve Fisher (Sentinel Concepts)
John McPhee (SOB Tactical)
Matt Pranka (X-Ray Alpha)
Frank Proctor (Frank Proctor Shooting, formerly Way of the Gun)



Level 1s I don't think there's too much to be gained by going to if you've already had prior training and are now able to shoot USPSA at a high level. I'm aware that institutional training typically isn't the greatest, but with your USPSA experience, I would think that you're organically going to be able to figure out the basics when supplemented with some basic online education.

This is a good list.

I’d add Mark Smith of JBS training (does joint classes with Bill Blowers) and Dan Brokos of Lead Faucet Tactical.

Not sure how much Pat Mac and Kyle Lamb are traveling / teaching right now. Dan Brokos (as in Brokos Belt) was Kyle Lamb’s AI for many years and has a similar background.

It would be helpful to know specifically what type rifle training the OP is interested in, I.e. defensive carbine (close range) or longer range / scoped carbine?

Several of the above listed instructors are qualified to teach both but usually do so in separate classes.

[Oldherkpilot]

I really want to take a class from Kyle Defoor based on the AARs that I have read.

Me, too. He seems to be a gifted shooter and instructor as well as a biker dude.😁 My reflexes are too slow to sign up in time when his courses drop and he doesn't seem to do Ohio, so I doubt I'll get one done.

[Cdub_NW]

I've heard great things about PFC https://pfctraining.com. I'm going to be doing a class with them soon. Cdub_NW


PFC (Progressive Force Concepts) our of Vegas is without question the best team I have ever trained under. There Tier1 operators and then there are Tier1 operators who can effectively teach... PFC is the later by a mile. No gimmicks, no games, no fluff, just simple, high-level effective training with real world proof in all their concepts. I cannot recommend them enough.

[BobM]

I had a class with Bob Keller of Gamut Resolutions that was good. I don’t think we shot past 50 yards in that one. I’m enrolled in a Forge Tactical class later this year that’s supposed to go out to 300. I’ve trained with them before in a shoot house course that was excellent.

[BehindBlueI's]

I would not hesitate to take a level one with the right instructor i.e. John McPhee and Paul Howe. Both guys who use "video" to record and critique the mechanics of their students.

I would also note that absent a "connection" or certain prior classes with certain folks, many instructors can be hesitant to enroll a student in their level 2 class off the street.

Let us know what you do and why you do it.

John McPhee usually does Level 1 and level 2 consecutively, and while I've not taken his rifle class I remain impressed with his pistol class and teaching technique.

[Sig_Fiend]

No personal experience except for having talked with him briefly one time on something unrelated. Mike Pannone (https://www.ctt-solutions.com/) is at the absolute top of my list. Literally wrote the book on the M4 (https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/m16m4-handbook-an-operational-guide-to-the-standard-us-military-assault-rifle_mike-pannone/27244181/#edition=57836445). He speaks with a precision and deep level of insight that is downright impressive. Check out any of his YouTube videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC55QQT56x_RtqZy1fZ_p4cA), Instagram posts (https://www.instagram.com/the_real_cttsolutions/), or interviews, and even that free content alone will give you profound learning points. You can also tell the quality of a man in the way they talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB8iFUnz_gI) about and revere their peers and mentors. Just a good dude all around.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx2p1M610wU

[Wake27]

Lots of good options presented here. Chuck Pressburg, Kyle Defoor, and SOB have been at the top of my list for some time. I was a patreon supporter of Chuck for a while because he had a unique way of throwing out lots of lightbulb moments. Probably something about his teaching style and my learning style, but I was often impressed at what I’d learn from just listening to him on a computer.

I was disappointed with Mike Pannone. Many had talked like he may be the single best instructor ever. I only took one class so small sample size but I have no desire to take another one of his again. That class actually made me look closely at what size limit instructors place on the class. If it’s anymore than 10:1, I’m fairly uninterested.

TRC outside of Bragg also has a good rep even though you don’t generally here specific instructor’s names thrown out.

I also really enjoyed the 5 day pistol/rifle class I took with Jason Falla of Redback 1. Lots to like about that course and him as an instructor.

I haven’t seen him post here in a while and I don’t know if he’s still instructing (and even if he is, I don’t think he was traveling to the mainland to do it) but Surf is another great instructor that I took several pistol and rifle classes with out in Hawaii. Similar to RB1, great instruction and environment. I miss shooting with those guys.

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[rd62]

My experience in a handgun class with Panone was great but sounds like mine was a much smaller class.

Defoor is on my short list for carbine for sure.

[jnc36rcpd]

I don't know how much rifle work he currently does, but I found Jeff Gonzalez's carbine course excellent when I took it some years ago. He teaches under different banners, but his company is Trident Concepts a.k.a. Tricon.

I'd also suggest PFC. I attended building search classes with them at two TacOps East conferences. PFC has a pretty extensive YouTube presence which may give you an idea of some of their training concepts. I used somem of their drills at my preiious agency.

[rob_s]

If you want a rifleman’s course with a carbine, learning fundamentals that apply whether you want to shoot matches or prepare for a gunfight, Randy Cain is your man. I have taken at least a half dozen classes with him, and probably a good two dozen total with a variety of the “big name” instructors.

https://guntactics.com/

The For er Action Guys (FAG) listed by most in this thread are fine. I’ve taken classes with many of the names posted by others. Of those, the Kyle’s (Lamb and DeFoor) are the only ones I can recommend, and even then you’re gonna want Randy’s class first to really benefit from what the Kyle’s have to offer. Showing up to a gun fighting class with a strong foundation in the fundamentals really opens you up to getting the most you can from the FAGs.

If you want to get the most out of Randy’s class, make sure the range you choose goes out to 300 yards. I’d recommend his “home” range outside of Lakeland, FL. You can fly into Orlando.

[John Hearne]

There are different kinds of carbine classes. Most people may find a three-day course overwhelming if they don't have the background. Both Lee Weems, Greg Ellifritz, and I offer one-day classes that focus on the immediate self-defense needs of the carbine. Picking up something like that first and then a longer class would be smart. FWIW, I thought the Carbine 1.5 from VTAC was a great course if you already are familiar with the carbine.

Also, if you really want to get the most out of your carbine, having a solid foundation in the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship can be huge. Picking up a rifleman patch from the Appleseed project is a great low cost way to do that.

[Poconnor]

I took classes from Greg Hamilton of Insights Training a while back and I would again. I miss Pat Rogers

[LittleLebowski]

I miss Pat Rogers

So very much :(

[okie john]

I took classes from Greg Hamilton of Insights Training a while back and I would again.

I've known Hamilton for years. Worked with him for a while and trained with him. Former 2/75 and SF. Solid guy with a solid team of instructors.

https://www.insightstraining.com/

They cover the waterfront and they cover it well. Not sure if they travel, but they do solid work in the Pacific Northwest.


Okie John

[paherne]

Gunsite?

[El Cid]

No personal experience except for having talked with him briefly one time on something unrelated. Mike Pannone (https://www.ctt-solutions.com/) is at the absolute top of my list. Literally wrote the book on the M4 (https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/m16m4-handbook-an-operational-guide-to-the-standard-us-military-assault-rifle_mike-pannone/27244181/#edition=57836445). He speaks with a precision and deep level of insight that is downright impressive. Check out any of his YouTube videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC55QQT56x_RtqZy1fZ_p4cA), Instagram posts (https://www.instagram.com/the_real_cttsolutions/), or interviews, and even that free content alone will give you profound learning points. You can also tell the quality of a man in the way they talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB8iFUnz_gI) about and revere their peers and mentors. Just a good dude all around.


I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.

I also won’t give Pressburg a dime. His time as a cop impersonator (google Lake Arthur PD scam), and using his fake badge to try avoiding consequences for shooting his brother in law while drunk are not the qualities of character I want in an instructor.

That said, I’ll add a couple to the list. I’ve trained with Mike Seeklander and our very own Jack Leuba (F2S Consulting LLC). Both are very good instructors. Also Bill Peterson through TNVC is a very good instructor though I’ve only taken the NF101 with him.

Currently he seems to be mainly teaching pistol work but if Hilton Yam offers a carbine class I recommend jumping on it.

Finally I recommend Will Petty of Centrifuge. He is very good and his injured shooter work is the best I’ve seen. Full disclosure I’m a certified VCQB instructor through Centrifuge but I don’t teach outside my agency.

[Sig_Fiend]

I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.


Interesting. Have any links to examples of that?

[Wake27]

I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.

I also won’t give Pressburg a dime. His time as a cop impersonator (google Lake Arthur PD scam), and using his fake badge to try avoiding consequences for shooting his brother in law while drunk are not the qualities of character I want in an instructor.

That said, I’ll add a couple to the list. I’ve trained with Mike Seeklander and our very own Jack Leuba (F2S Consulting LLC). Both are very good instructors. Also Bill Peterson through TNVC is a very good instructor though I’ve only taken the NF101 with him.

Currently he seems to be mainly teaching pistol work but if Hilton Yam offers a carbine class I recommend jumping on it.

Finally I recommend Will Petty of Centrifuge. He is very good and his injured shooter work is the best I’ve seen. Full disclosure I’m a certified VCQB instructor through Centrifuge but I don’t teach outside my agency.

I didn’t train with Jack but I did shoot with him and a few others. Wouldn’t hesitate to pay him for a class.

Agree on Mike. I took a class with him in 2013 or 2014 and was entirely underwhelmed. I’ve written about it enough online that it probably seems like I’ve had multiple negative experiences which I have not, but I’ve been firmly against training with him ever since.


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[HCM]

I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.

I also won’t give Pressburg a dime. His time as a cop impersonator (google Lake Arthur PD scam), and using his fake badge to try avoiding consequences for shooting his brother in law while drunk are not the qualities of character I want in an instructor.

That said, I’ll add a couple to the list. I’ve trained with Mike Seeklander and our very own Jack Leuba (F2S Consulting LLC). Both are very good instructors. Also Bill Peterson through TNVC is a very good instructor though I’ve only taken the NF101 with him.

Currently he seems to be mainly teaching pistol work but if Hilton Yam offers a carbine class I recommend jumping on it.

Finally I recommend Will Petty of Centrifuge. He is very good and his injured shooter work is the best I’ve seen. Full disclosure I’m a certified VCQB instructor through Centrifuge but I don’t teach outside my agency.


Interesting. Have any links to examples of that?

Since we seem to be getting into the dirty laundry in the training industry, the short version is a for several years Mike Pannone has taken issue with some of the tactics caught in the centrifuge training vehicle CQB program which is popular with domestic LE here in the US. Pannone states his objections are based on his experience as a contractor in Iraq running soft skin vehicles. how much of this is legitimate criticism, and how much of this is Pannone driving business to his own vehicle tactics class would need to be judged for oneself.

Regarding Chuck Pressburg, the man left the military with an amazing skill set and a drinking problem. Not the first and won’t be the last to do so. And yes, he unintentionally shot his brother-in-law in an alcohol related incident, which unsurprisingly led to him getting clean and sober, and dealing with the underlying issues that lead to the drinking problem.

Pressburg was also one of a very long list of people in the firearms industry who obtain reserve police officer commissions from the lake, Arthur, New Mexico police department, in order to be able to carry a firearm under LEOSA. There was a very long list of Lake Arthur PD reserve officers. Long enough that if you shunned everybody on that list (think hundreds of names), there wouldn’t be many people left one could take class from. I don’t think that have any bearing on the incident with his brother-in-law.

Not looking to kick over an ant hill here, but there are well-known names in the training industry with equally serious, or worse things in their past. Some of those things are why they are now doing open enrollment training instead of whatever they used to do.

So while Pressburg may not be the best choice as a life coach, if you want to learn to shoot a rifle or a pistol better (or do so under NVG) he can make you a better shooter.

[Wake27]

I’d have to disagree with that assessment of Pannone. He’s been rather unprofessional and a “mean girl” the last few years. He’s clearly threatened by one of his peers and the success that individual has had. I’ve trained with Pannone before but wouldn’t give him a dime today based on his childish behavior.

I also won’t give Pressburg a dime. His time as a cop impersonator (google Lake Arthur PD scam), and using his fake badge to try avoiding consequences for shooting his brother in law while drunk are not the qualities of character I want in an instructor.

That said, I’ll add a couple to the list. I’ve trained with Mike Seeklander and our very own Jack Leuba (F2S Consulting LLC). Both are very good instructors. Also Bill Peterson through TNVC is a very good instructor though I’ve only taken the NF101 with him.

Currently he seems to be mainly teaching pistol work but if Hilton Yam offers a carbine class I recommend jumping on it.

Finally I recommend Will Petty of Centrifuge. He is very good and his injured shooter work is the best I’ve seen. Full disclosure I’m a certified VCQB instructor through Centrifuge but I don’t teach outside my agency.


Since we seem to be getting into the dirty laundry in the training industry, the short version is a for several years Mike Pannone has taken issue with some of the tactics caught in the centrifuge training vehicle CQB program which is popular with domestic LE here in the US. Pannone states his objections are based on his experience as a contractor in Iraq running soft skin vehicles. how much of this is legitimate criticism, and how much of this is Pannone driving business to his own vehicle tactics class would need to be judged for oneself.

Regarding Chuck Pressburg, the man left the military with an amazing skill set and a drinking problem. Not the first and won’t be the last to do so. And yes, he unintentionally shot his brother-in-law in an alcohol related incident, which unsurprisingly led to him getting clean and sober, and dealing with the underlying issues that lead to the drinking problem.

Pressburg was also one of a very long list of people in the firearms industry who obtain reserve police officer commissions from the lake, Arthur, New Mexico police department, in order to be able to carry a firearm under LEOSA. There was a very long list of Lake Arthur PD reserve officers. Long enough that if you shunned everybody on that list (think hundreds of names), there wouldn’t be many people left one could take class from. I don’t think that have any bearing on the incident with his brother-in-law.

Not looking to kick over an ant hill here, but there are well-known names in the training industry with equally serious, or worse things in their past. Some of those things are why they are now doing open enrollment training instead of whatever they used to do.

So while Pressburg may not be the best choice as a life coach, if you want to learn to shoot a rifle or a pistol better (or do so under NVG) he can make you a better shooter.

Forgot to include Chuck in my original response. Agreed on the life decisions maybe not making him the best overall role model but he’s the only one I’ve supported through Patreon. The more I teach, the more I understand how some instructors can just communicate more effectively to some students. Chuck’s method of explanation and connecting the dots just works for me. I’ve had more lightbulb moments listening to him than most people I’ve actually shot with so he’s absolutely near the top of my list to find a class with.


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[Clusterfrack]

I’m training with Brian and Doug from PFC right now in a 4 person class. Can’t say enough good things. https://pfctraining.com/firearms-training/

[El Cid]

Interesting. Have any links to examples of that?

As HCM posted, the list of douchebags who played fake cop for $400 a year is out there (see link below). As for Pannone, I don't care if he disagrees with other instructors. Not all will have the same techniques or reasons for using them. It's why I try to train with a variety - I can almost always take away something useful. But the day he posted a photo of Petty on his IG with a dildo photoshopped in place of his pistol (because Pannone hates Temple Index), I lost all respect for him as a professional. How far he has fallen since the class I was in. There he lectured us on not using the slang term "Brokeback" for urban prone because it could affect his .gov contracts. I'm certain I saved the image in case he deleted it from his IG, but cannot find it presently.

https://www.krqe.com/news/playing-cop-the-lake-arthur-badge-scheme-2/

[WobblyPossum]

I’m with HCM regarding the Lake Arthur thing. Keeping in mind that the list available on the KRQE page is not complete because a bunch of people resigned right before the story broke so they weren’t featured on the list of reserve officers, that’s a ton of people in the training industry. A bunch of those people are quite well liked, respected, and recommended on this forum. If you refused to train with anyone associated with that debacle, you’d be cutting off a good percentage of the available traveling trainers. The whole thing was a douchebag idea and a dick move by the participants, but it’s definitely not the worst thing I’ve heard of happening in the training industry.

[Sig_Fiend]

Fair enough and thanks, all, for the feedback. Sorry if I stirred up anything that didn't need to be, as that certainly wasn't my intent. There's a reason I try not to hero worship anyone. We're all flawed, have our egos, etc. Compared to my thoughts maybe 10yrs ago, I've come to realize NO ONE can ever pass a "purity test". As long as someone isn't actively pushing or doing bad or dangerous stuff with malicious or unethical intent, I think it's incredibly wasteful to demonize them. Just my opinion. Take the best and all that.

As far as the LEOSA thing, I mean I get it. Can't say I hold that against anyone. I've known a few that have gone the reserve route in different areas almost solely for that purpose. It is what it is.

[El Cid]

As far as the LEOSA thing, I mean I get it. Can't say I hold that against anyone. I've known a few that have gone the reserve route in different areas almost solely for that purpose. It is what it is.

I have no heartburn over reserve officers as they fill an important role in many agencies. But most reserve officers still must be certified police officers. They get training in the law and how to apply it. They also pick up shifts and do work. The douchebags from Lake Arthur paid $400 a year for a badge and ID card. Most just wanted a national carry permit and sacrificed their integrity to do so. The worst of the bunch tried to live out some bizarre fantasy - see Dan Bilzerian trying to get a gun from a cop during the Vegas shooting by claiming he was a cop.

I always hear people say others were able to resign before the list went public. Yet nobody knows who these mystery douches were. HCM

[Rocky Racoon]

If you refused to train with anyone associated with that debacle, you’d be cutting off a good percentage of the available traveling trainers. The whole thing was a douchebag idea and a dick move by the participants, but it’s definitely not the worst thing I’ve heard of happening in the training industry.


Long enough that if you shunned everybody on that list (think hundreds of names), there wouldn’t be many people left one could take class from. I don’t think that have any bearing on the incident with his brother-in-law.

Not looking to kick over an ant hill here, but there are well-known names in the training industry with equally serious, or worse things in their past. Some of those things are why they are now doing open enrollment training instead of whatever they used to do.




I'm okay with cutting off a good percentage. There are plenty of others that didn't pay for a badge. And the fact that I don't know every single person that had a paid-for-badge doesn't mean I'm going to give the ones I do know about a pass. We lock up criminals every day and no one says to ignore it because a bunch of other criminals didn't get caught. How is this different?

As far as other things being worse in the training industry, that's just a whataboutism. Stalin killed more than Hitler, but that doesn't mean we should overlook what Hitler did.

Didnt Langdon self report himself as a previous member of group?


---------------

I get that Pannone has strong feeling about the temple index. I do, too. But he has some 'angry old man' energy going on on Instagram. And he and X-Ray Alpha picked an unnecessary fight with Mike Glover. That's not criminal and wouldn't prevent me from taking a class. But I get it if it turns others off and drives them away. He should probably chill online.

[HCM]

I have no heartburn over reserve officers as they fill an important role in many agencies. But most reserve officers still must be certified police officers. They get training in the law and how to apply it. They also pick up shifts and do work. The douchebags from Lake Arthur paid $400 a year for a badge and ID card. Most just wanted a national carry permit and sacrificed their integrity to do so. The worst of the bunch tried to live out some bizarre fantasy - see Dan Bilzerian trying to get a gun from a cop during the Vegas shooting by claiming he was a cop.

I always hear people say others were able to resign before the list went public. Yet nobody knows who these mystery douches were. HCM

97143

[Suvorov]

No personal experience, but I've heard a couple of our SME's here recommend Paul Howe and Kyle Lamb.

I’ve taken Paul Howe’s carbine class. He is old school and very professional. Fundamentals are the key. When I attended he used the students from his instructor class to serve as small group instructors for every two carbine class students while he then floated between each team. The setup was very much a “train the trainer” format. That said he was 100% present and did most of the demonstrations, the students from his instructor class did the rest. Seems to follow the format of his old unit.

I took his class more than years ago so his format might have changed but based on his newsletters it doesn’t seem so. He now offers a much broader list of courses. His techniques were pretty traditional as well.

He doesn’t travel but his facilities are very good and worth the trip.

I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend him and have always wanted to go back and take his instructor class.

[TCB]

If you’re already familiar with the USPSA side of training Ben Stoeger is now doing rifle stuff…I’m signed up with a class he’s doing with Matt Pranka next year. I’m expecting it to be excellent. From the .Mil side Jason Falla of RedbackONE has an outstanding rifle training program that is being used at the highest levels of a couple countries militaries.

[HCM]

If you’re already familiar with the USPSA side of training Ben Stoeger is now doing rifle stuff…I’m signed up with a class he’s doing with Matt Pranka next year. I’m expecting it to be excellent. From the .Mil side Jason Falla of RedbackONE has an outstanding rifle training program that is being used at the highest levels of a couple countries militaries.

RB1 provides good training but he has few open enrollment classes and many of those are LE only due to the host locations

He’s not the only one with that issue. KD4 a mostly does closed contract classes and his open enrollment classes sell out quick as he gets a lot of repeat students.

As noted some instructors are either not teaching open enrollment anymore or, like Pat Mac are no longer traveling. All of his classes last year were held local to him in NC.

AFAIK Kyle Lamb is no longer teaching open enrollment. His carbine book green eyes & Black Rifles is a good starting point for learning to work a AR pattern carbine.

https://www.amazon.com/Green-Eyes-Black-Rifles-Warriors/dp/0615166547/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?crid=Q2J3LCWAHZQ&keywords=kyle+lamb+book&qid=1668382286&sprefix=kyle+lamb+book%2Caps%2C128&sr=8-4

[Wake27]

If you’re already familiar with the USPSA side of training Ben Stoeger is now doing rifle stuff…I’m signed up with a class he’s doing with Matt Pranka next year. I’m expecting it to be excellent. From the .Mil side Jason Falla of RedbackONE has an outstanding rifle training program that is being used at the highest levels of a couple countries militaries.

RB1 hosted my favorite class, five day pistol/rifle at Academi back in 2016ish. Marathon targets came out too. Definitely a good instructor but he has been pretty low on OE courses the last few years as noted.


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[David S.]

Under the circumstances, you could do a lot worse than Sentinel Concepts.

Also, don’t forget the cheap fun of Project Appleseed.

[Guerrero]

I’ve taken Paul Howe’s carbine class.

Does he ever smile, or is the scowl permanent?

[Suvorov]

Does he ever smile, or is the scowl permanent?

He was actually a petty amicable guy - you just get an overriding sense that he is no-nonsense.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

He was actually a petty amicable guy - you just get an overriding sense that he is no-nonsense.

In person Paul is very amicable & his demeanor is professional but I am a bit biased so ………

[Mark D]

I haven't checked into this thread in a while and don't feel like re-reading it again, but I got quite a bit from a Panone carbine class several years ago. The class size was big, and Panone wasn't especially personable, but I picked up stuff from him that I seldom see other instructors address in any detail. FWIW, a few years later I took Panone's covert carry pistol class, and enjoyed it quite a bit. In that class, perhaps because it was smaller, I found Mike to be much more approachable and personable. I'd train with him again.

Chuck Pressburg is a polarizing figure, but I would definitely take his No Fail Rifle class. His ability to communicate concepts works for me. After watching a fair bit of his content on P&S and Patreon, I think he has genuinely owned his past fuck ups, and made course corrections. I recognize that some other folks don't feel the same way.

I took a pistol/FOF class with Bill Rapier (Amtac (https://www.amtacshooting.com/)) and wouldn't hesitate to take one of his rifle classes. He's seriously under-rated as an instructor, probably because he's so humble and low key.

[ST911]

I took a pistol/FOF class with Bill Rapier (Amtac (https://www.amtacshooting.com/)) and wouldn't hesitate to take one of his rifle classes. He's seriously under-rated as an instructor, probably because he's so humble and low key.

You beat me to it. Bill has the resume of the others listed above and the added distinction of being a truly excellent, upright human. Multiple grad, highly recommended.

[usmc_k9_vet]

Lots of good recommendations in this thread. The only ones I can recommend from personal experience are Costa and Baer Solutions.

Costa’s classes are all three days. This is why I’ve learned someone’s basic course may be someone else’s advanced. It really depends what topics they’re covering and how in depth they go with things. Costa’s classes are definitely not competition-oriented in any way. He’s got rifle, pistol, long range rifle, VCQB, and a couple others I’m forgetting. I have taken his Pistol 1, Pistol 2, and Carbine 1.

Baer Solutions’ classes are one day each. So Pistol 1 and Pistol 2 are each a day. Same with his rifle courses. He’s an excellent instructor. This might be the way to go if you’re just looking for a quick, one day intro rifle course.

One I can recommend NOT taking a course from is Rob Pincus. My god was that a waste of time and money. The thing that bothered me the most about the class was he actually made one of the students feel completely stupid in front of everyone and he meant to do it. It was an older gentlemen who had a serious question that a lot of people would know the answer to. But who cares? That’s the purpose of paying money to go to a class. Rob embarrassed him and was a complete and unprofessional ass. Looking back, I should have left then and there, but I was too chicken shit to do so.

He also hardly demo’d anything he was teaching and he has some whack concepts about this “flinch response” thing that he’s developed and chosen as his hill to die on. I don’t know where it comes from and honestly don’t know if there’s any legitimacy to it, but he’s damn sure the only instructor I’ve ever seen teach it. If you know what I’m talking about, you know and I’m not going to go too in depth here because it’d be to much typing, but suffice it to say at the beginning of every single drill you’ll be physically going into “flinch mode” before you draw and fire. Ya know what? Don’t worry about these last couple paragraphs. Just don’t take his classes.


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[DamonL]

I highly recommend Clint Smith and his Urban Rifle program. He has been teaching his carbine program for more then 30 years. If you can get to Thunder Ranch for one of his classes, you will not regret it.

[HCM]

I highly recommend Clint Smith and his Urban Rifle program. He has been teaching his carbine program for more then 30 years. If you can get to Thunder Ranch for one of his classes, you will not regret it.

True.

How does the new Oregon gun law / mag ban play into that ?

How many people will want to travel to TR to take urban rifle if they can’t bring standard capacity mags?

Actually makes me wonder how that will affect their efforts to sell the Thunder Ranch property?

[DMF13]

He also hardly demo’d anything he was teaching and he has some whack concepts about this “flinch response” thing that he’s developed and chosen as his hill to die on. I don’t know where it comes from and honestly don’t know if there’s any legitimacy to it, but he’s damn sure the only instructor I’ve ever seen teach it. If you know what I’m talking about, you know and I’m not going to go too in depth here because it’d be to much typing, but suffice it to say at the beginning of every single drill you’ll be physically going into “flinch mode” before you draw and fire. That sounds like Tony Blauer's "startle flinch," which Blauer has been talking about for decades. Context is important , because Blauer teaches that in relation to a close quarters ambush. At arms length, when some is trying punch you in the head, it makes sense. At longer ranges, it does not. Clearly Pincus has taken that idea, and tried to apply in a context that is inappropriate.

As with any discussion of Pincus, I feel compelled to link to my 'favorite' Pincus video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jOg25HlBNiU&feature=emb_imp_woyt

That alone would be enough to keep a rational person from training with Pincus.

[Norville]

As with any discussion of Pincus, I feel compelled to link to my 'favorite' Pincus video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jOg25HlBNiU&feature=emb_imp_woyt

That alone would be enough to keep a rational person from training with Pincus.


Oh my. What would prompt someone to do that, let alone post it on the web for all to see?

[DamonL]

True.

How does the new Oregon gun law / mag ban play into that ?

How many people will want to travel to TR to take urban rifle if they can’t bring standard capacity mags?

Actually makes me wonder how that will affect their efforts to sell the Thunder Ranch property?

Those are good questions. I attended classes at TR while he was still in Texas, so no knowledge of Oregon training restrictions. He was my first class in learning alternate targeting, non standard shooting positions, carbine use at pistol distances, and more.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Those are good questions. I attended classes at TR while he was still in Texas, so no knowledge of Oregon training restrictions. He was my first class in learning alternate targeting, non standard shooting positions, carbine use at pistol distances, and more.

Slight swerve but learning occurred @ TR Tx in '97 forward to a 2010 visit in Or., good times with Clint/Heidi etc.

[DMF13]

Oh my. What would prompt someone to do that, let alone post it on the web for all to see?Well, the internet is rife with people doing stupid things for attention. What littIe I know about that guy is he's very good at marketing himself, but the actual content is "suspect" (thats my generous description ;) ).

That video was posted in 2011 when many people were trying to make money through CrossFit, and he was clearly trying to capitalize on that. He then went on to rename his gun and CrossFit nonsense as "FitShot." Behold another gift of the internet: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hAe-F2ByOAA

So a guy who says firearms training with a timer, dry fire, and shooting competitions are bad, has a program where people do timed workouts, that are a competition, and are penalized for misses in the shooting portion. Not illogical, or hypocritical, at all!

I'll give the devil his due though, he's making money selling his brand of nonsense.