Holy Muzzle Flash!

[Stephanie B]

https://www.juliegolob.com/a-legend-in-the-making-smith-wesson-introduces-the-model-350

A .350 Legend revolver. That ought to be impressive.

But how much does this differ from a .357 Maximum?

[oregon45]

Hodgdon lists several 350 Legend loads that hit 2,000-2,100fps with 180gr bullets, but with no barrel length specified. I can get 1800fps out of my 10.5” .357 Maximum with 180grcXTP’s with sub-maximum loads of H4227. I will be very interested to see chronograph data from the S&W 350 Legend. The effective length of that 7.5” ported barrel is likely only around 6.5-6.75” due to the expansion chamber it appears to have, plus velocity loss from the barrel cylinder gap, so I would expect most 350 Legend loads to be well under 2,000fps with 180gr bullets.

[RevolverRob]

More powerful and higher pressure than .357Max.

.355" bullets in .350LGND vs .358" bullets for .357Max

55k PSI from .350LGND vs. 40k PSI in .357Max

2.26" OAL for .350LGND vs. 1.95" OAL for .357Max

180-grain XTP @ 2100fps (20" barrel listed in my reloading manual) from .350LGND vs. 180-grain XTP @ 1950fps from .357Max (10.5" barrel).

[oregon45]

Put a.357 Max in a 20” rifle barrel and it’ll go past 2,000fps with 180gr bullets without breaking a sweat. The Legend looks like a nice revolver; in fact, it is remarkably similar in appearance to my stainless Dan Wesson 357 Supermag, and I suspect it will perform about the same.

[RevolverRob]

Put a.357 Max in a 20” rifle barrel and it’ll go past 2,000fps with 180gr bullets without breaking a sweat. The Legend looks like a nice revolver; in fact, it is remarkably similar in appearance to my stainless Dan Wesson 357 Supermag, and I suspect it will perform about the same.

I don't have a .357Max - do you think it's gonna be out of gas by 20"? I sort of figured to build my .357Max double around a pair of 18" barrels.

Anyways, I suspect you are correct about general performance from a 7.5" barrel in .350LGND. All that boomage comes with some extra forcing cone erosion (doubt many folks will shoot it that much), I'd bet sticky extraction (since .350 is rimless), but...factory ammo support.

[oregon45]

I’ve shot a TC Contender 21” .357 Max barrel and didn’t notice any slow down. One big difference with single or double barrel .357 Maximums is the ability to use a longer throat allowing for longer bullets, particularly 180gr Spire Point bullets intended for the .35 Whelen.

[JHC]

More powerful and higher pressure than .357Max.

.355" bullets in .350LGND vs .358" bullets for .357Max

55k PSI from .350LGND vs. 40k PSI in .357Max

2.26" OAL for .350LGND vs. 1.95" OAL for .357Max

180-grain XTP @ 2100fps (20" barrel listed in my reloading manual) from .350LGND vs. 180-grain XTP @ 1950fps from .357Max (10.5" barrel).

Dbl shotties converted to these calibers. Just sayin'. Again

[mtnbkr]

I don't see any benefit of the Legend over the Max except for short-term commercial ammo availability (long-term availability remains to be seen).

It would be an interesting project to replace the cylinder in this new revolver with one for 357max (would be a total custom job as there isn't a smaller bore cylinder to modify). The barrel would be a bit tight, but it probably wouldn't have much impact. People already shoot .357" cast bullets in 9mm.

Chris

[Stephanie B]

So. a little bit of searching (like 40 seconds' worth) and I found this article (https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-357-maximum-too-hot-to-handle/) that the .357 Max was not a success because of topstrap erosion.

I'm curious as to how the .350 Legend will be different.

[sharps54]

I’ll stick with my Blackhawk in .357/44 Bain & Davis, the only real advantage the long cases have are with heavier bullets. With 158’s the handiness of the standard cylinder and brass is well worth any minor velocity difference. I’m also a believer in going up in caliber if you want a heavier bullet so there is that…

[mtnbkr]

So. a little bit of searching (like 40 seconds' worth) and I found this article (https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-357-maximum-too-hot-to-handle/) that the .357 Max was not a success because of topstrap erosion.

I'm curious as to how the .350 Legend will be different.

As mentioned in the article, the erosion would reach a point and stop. so while cosmetically bad, it wasn't a problem in terms of safety. At least I've never heard of any failures caused by that top-strap erosion...

I didn't see it mentioned, but the erosion was less severe if you used heavy bullets, which was kind of the raison d'être of the cartridge.

I've never owned a 357max myself. I've been tempted to get a barrel for my Encore, but I can use Trailboss powder in my 35 Whelen barrel and get the same ballistic results.

Chris

[oregon45]

The top strap erosion that doomed the .357 Maximum as a commercial cartridge was the result of Remington's decision to market the cartridge as a faster .357 Magnum, loading it with 110gr and 125gr JSP's over a stout load of ball powder. That combination did to the Ruger Maximum what the .357 Magnum 125gr loads did to the S&W K-frames: it flame cut the top strap and eroded the barrel face. Neither issue resulted in a failure of the guns; the top strap erosion would proceed to a certain depth and then stop, but the damage to the cartridge's reputation was done.

The solution to that erosion is not to use hot burning ball powders and light-weight bullets. It is why most people who shoot the .357 Maximum extensively use powders like H4227 or AA1680 for maximum loads rather than more traditional ball powders like Win 296 or H110.

It's a shame the .357 Maximum didn't catch on because it can drive 180-210gr bullets to useful velocities and provide very fine accuracy out to, and beyond, 200 meters--as decades of IHMSA Silhouette records can attest.

Whether the 350 Legend can catch on will likely depend upon: (1) how well the cartridge performs out of the relatively short S&W barrel; (2) whether S&W has solved the problem of extracting rimless cases in a DA revolver--particularly a high pressure cartridge that will likely require very well polished chambers, kept very clean, to prevent sticking; (3) whether any other manufacturers will take up the chambering. If it takes the 350 Legend to get Ruger to produce the extended Super Blackhawk frame again, then I'm all for it :D

I'll reserve judgment on the S&W revolver, and the chambering, until I read Brian Pearce's article. If S&W is smart, they've already had the gun in his hands for months. And if S&W would produce this gun with a 10 5/8" barrel, with an integral Picatinny rail, DX-style front sight and Bo-Mar style rear, then I'd likely overlook the internal lock and pick one up just for fun.

[RevolverRob]

You can order a Magnum Research BFR in .350 Legend. Of course you can also order a BFR in .357 Max or .375Win both are in the same frame size as the Legend. So why you'd choose .350LGND over those two other rounds is a mystery to me. Particularly .375Win - which can be a powder puff or an absolute monster and has tons of bullets available.

[MandoWookie]

According to the TFB article they are using moonclips for extraction, so wouldn't that solve the issue of it being rimless?

[sharps54]

Aside from I assume less recoil what does it do better than a .454 or .460 out of a handgun?

[RevolverRob]

According to the TFB article they are using moonclips for extraction, so wouldn't that solve the issue of it being rimless?

It solves the rimless issue - it doesn't solve sticky extraction. Which is likely going to be an issue when the brass swells due to the high pressure of the round. We're talking 15-20k more peak PSI for .350LGND over .357Maximum.


Aside from I assume less recoil what does it do better than a .454 or .460 out of a handgun?

Cost less to shoot. There are about 2x as many .350 Legend loads available as .454. I just ran an Ammoseek search out of curiosity and .454 Casull choices are HSM, Freedom, Barnes, Hornady, Magtech, and Federal - prices range from $1.55/round and up. For .350 Legend, Winchester (White Box practice fodder), Browning, Remington, Freedom, Barnes, Hornady, Federal all offer ammo for it and it runs 66.5¢/round and up. So, ~1/3 the price per round of .454. .460 is roughly the same as .454 in cost.

[oregon45]

In addition to being more widespread as a factory round, I also suspect the 350 Legend will be substantially easier on the shooter than commonly available 44 Magnum / 454 Casull loads--particularly for higher round counts.

[Stephanie B]

I haven't visit a lot of gunshops since early 2020, but even a S&W stocking dealer several months back had hardly anything in the sales case. If they can't make enough to meet demand, now, why bring out another model? Especially when they are apparently in flux as to what's going to be made where?

Ah, why am I asking? The nut barns are packed with people who have driven themselves insane trying to make sense of what the management of Colt and/or S&W have done.

[Stephanie B]

More powerful and higher pressure than .357Max.

.355" bullets in .350LGND vs .358" bullets for .357Max

.357 bullets:

93191

If Wikipedia is right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend), the cartridge was designed to meet rules that required straight-walled cartridges that had a minimum bullet diameter of .357,

[willie]

I haven't visit a lot of gunshops since early 2020, but even a S&W stocking dealer several months back had hardly anything in the sales case. If they can't make enough to meet demand, now, why bring out another model? Especially when they are apparently in flux as to what's going to be made where?

Ah, why am I asking? The nut barns are packed with people who have driven themselves insane trying to make sense of what the management of Colt and/or S&W have done.

You are correct. They have filled up insane asylums too.🤗

[MandoWookie]

I wonder what the performance of those Leheigh Xtreme Penetrators would be in .350 Legend? Or a heavy hardcast.

[jtcarm]

When’s the 2” Scandium carry version due?

[JTMcC]

I hope they sell a ton of them, but seems a little odd to me.
Those X-frame guns are so big, and so heavy, I'd carry a 5-6 LB carbine first.

But it might put some additional range into deer/antelope hunters grasp.
Who knows what'll happen in those states with the weird "straight wall" hunting regs, just might catch on.

[RevolverRob]

.357 bullets:

93191

If Wikipedia is right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend), the cartridge was designed to meet rules that required straight-walled cartridges that had a minimum bullet diameter of .357,

SAAMI specification is a bit tricky...it is .357" (minus) 0.0030" - So technically the specification is .354" in size. Winchester says it's specc'ed to run .354-.357" bullets. However, many rifle manufacturers make their .350L barrels in .355". Factory loads from Winchester, Hornady, Federal, etc. all use a .355" bullet, not a .357".

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/whats-going-on-with-350-legend/

The general advice is - do not shoot the 55k PSI cartridge with common .357-.358" bullets. There are Legend-specific bullets in .355 and .356 diameters or monolithic 9mm pistol bullets can work - okay.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/reloading-350-legend/377056

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/350-Legend/8567

[Spartan1980]

So. a little bit of searching (like 40 seconds' worth) and I found this article (https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-357-maximum-too-hot-to-handle/) that the .357 Max was not a success because of topstrap erosion.

I'm curious as to how the .350 Legend will be different.

I remember back in the day that I was all primed up to grab a Ruger in .357Max, but almost immediately the erosion issue surfaced. Dan Wesson "solved" it by already having an easily replaceable barrel designed in. Ruger threw in the towel in pretty short order. These guns were actually shot hard in IHMSA matches and it wasn't just topstrap erosion, it was also hell on the forcing cone and accuracy dropped off rather rapidly. With .350L running even higher velocities I'm going to watch with interest as to how it's different now.

[john c]

I remember back in the day that I was all primed up to grab a Ruger in .357Max, but almost immediately the erosion issue surfaced. Dan Wesson "solved" it by already having an easily replaceable barrel designed in. Ruger threw in the towel in pretty short order. These guns were actually shot hard in IHMSA matches and it wasn't just topstrap erosion, it was also hell on the forcing cone and accuracy dropped off rather rapidly. With .350L running even higher velocities I'm going to watch with interest as to how it's different now.

I think the flame cutting and throat issues have been mitigated. Better metallurgy and replaceable shields have solved flame cutting. Better powder choices have addressed the erosion problems. The powders used back in the 70s and 80s for top velocity have been superseded by newer powders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

I hope they sell a ton of them, but seems a little odd to me.
Those X-frame guns are so big, and so heavy, I'd carry a 5-6 LB carbine first.

But it might put some additional range into deer/antelope hunters grasp.
Who knows what'll happen in those states with the weird "straight wall" hunting regs, just might catch on.

In that weight and OAL you could have a 12" barreled Contender for half the money.

[JTMcC]

In that weight and OAL you could have a 12" barreled Contender for half the money.

Right, with the ability to switch calibers, etc.

Who knows how moonclips will go over with hunters. Time will tell.

But those straight wall states have made a lot of things popular that otherwise might not have happened.

[Stephanie B]

I suppose this continues the grand tradition of having a rifle and sidearm in the same caliber. A Ruger Blackhawk with a 7.5” barrel would be good, and then who cares if it’a a rimless cartridge.

I guess the pointy bullets keeps this out of lever guns, other than a BLR or a remake of a Winchester ‘95.

[Spartan1980]

I suppose this continues the grand tradition of having a rifle and sidearm in the same caliber. A Ruger Blackhawk with a 7.5” barrel would be good, and then who cares if it’a a rimless cartridge.

I guess the pointy bullets keeps this out of lever guns, other than a BLR or a remake of a Winchester ‘95.

Ahem... (https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/35-cal-.355-165-gr-ftx#!/#features)

Loaded ammo too (https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/350-legend-165-gr-ftx#!/)

[Hambo]

I suppose this continues the grand tradition of having a rifle and sidearm in the same caliber.

It's more like a Walker Colt in a pommel holster.

[Stephanie B]

It's more like a Walker Colt in a pommel holster.

Indeed, since that gun is probably going to be about 5 pounds, fully loaded. That’s a lot to hang off the belt.

Anyway, so much for the scheme that a three digit model number with the first number being three indicating that it is a lightweight gun.