LA Times - No Culture of Violence at LAPD SWAT

[Erick Gelhaus]

Main "Story"
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-07-27/no-culture-of-violence-in-swat-lapd-review-finds

Referenced "story"
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-29/lapd-swat-unit-controlled-by-swat-mafia-that-encourages-deadly-shootings-sergeant-lawsuit-alleges

"SWAT officers did not use force in 1,245 of the 1,350 incidents they responded to between 2012 and 2022 ... "

[Totem Polar]

I’m no expert, but it seems that a true culture of violence would produce more than 20 shootings in 10 years across all personnel, given the type of work and the location.

In all, it seems like LAPD SWAT is actually pretty good at handling the things they get paid to handle.

JMO.

[Hambo]

Main "Story"
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-07-27/no-culture-of-violence-in-swat-lapd-review-finds

Referenced "story"
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-29/lapd-swat-unit-controlled-by-swat-mafia-that-encourages-deadly-shootings-sergeant-lawsuit-alleges

"SWAT officers did not use force in 1,245 of the 1,350 incidents they responded to between 2012 and 2022 ... "

Only 20 OIS in all those incidents, and 5 incidents in which SWAT took fire but did not return fire.

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve alway heard that once SWAT arrives on scene and takes over the incident is safely resolved without force 90-95% of the time. The numbers here are right in line with that. I always laugh when people cry about SWAT serving warrants or handling other incidents. Who would you rather have serve a warrant or handle a barricade? A group of quiet professionals or a bunch of fear biters? Highly trained professionals with high stress inoculation used to dealing with low frequency high risk events will resolve things peaceably most of the time. It’s still dependent on the suspect’s decision making but those are impressive numbers.

[Joe in PNG]

I’ve alway heard that once SWAT arrives on scene and takes over the incident is safely resolved without force 90-95% of the time. The numbers here are right in line with that. I always laugh when people cry about SWAT serving warrants or handling other incidents. Who would you rather have serve a warrant or handle a barricade? A group of quiet professionals or a bunch of fear biters? Highly trained professionals with high stress inoculation used to dealing with low frequency high risk events will resolve things peaceably most of the time. It’s still dependent on the suspect’s decision making but those are impressive numbers.

Not everything called SWAT is a highly trained team of professionals. How many 'SWAT' teams are just regular bubba officers all TAC'd out?

[DpdG]

Not everything called SWAT is a highly trained team of professionals. How many 'SWAT' teams are just regular bubba officers all TAC'd out?

Short answer- it depends. There are full-time teams and part time/collateral duty teams. Odds are the full-time teams are more likely than not to have their act together. Among the part-time teams… I suspect it’s pretty hit or miss. In order to comply with NTOA standards full time teams need to train 480 hours/year, while part time are supposed to train 192 hours/year as minimums. Whether or not “Backwoods PD/County/Regional SWAT” complies with NTOA standards is a guessing game.

My state is pretty small, with the biggest agency (State Police) having just under 350 sworn members and probably only two other agencies state wide having over 100 sworn. As a result, all teams are part time teams, with most being multi-jurisdictional/regional teams and the only exceptions being those 3 agencies with (well) over 100 sworn. The good part of that is that the 20-40 operators on a regional team are drawn from a much bigger pool of cops rather than a 15-50 person agency fielding their own team. Having said that, some of the regional teams have stronger reputations than others.

[TC215]

According to the last NTOA SWAT study, out of 254 respondents, agencies that activated their SWAT teams for an incident were eight times more likely to use less-lethal force than lethal force…


https://www.ntoa.org/ntoa-swat-study/

[Lon]

Short answer- it depends. There are full-time teams and part time/collateral duty teams. Odds are the full-time teams are more likely than not to have their act together. Among the part-time teams… I suspect it’s pretty hit or miss. In order to comply with NTOA standards full time teams need to train 480 hours/year, while part time are supposed to train 192 hours/year as minimums. Whether or not “Backwoods PD/County/Regional SWAT” complies with NTOA standards is a guessing game.

My state is pretty small, with the biggest agency (State Police) having just under 350 sworn members and probably only two other agencies state wide having over 100 sworn. As a result, all teams are part time teams, with most being multi-jurisdictional/regional teams and the only exceptions being those 3 agencies with (well) over 100 sworn. The good part of that is that the 20-40 operators on a regional team are drawn from a much bigger pool of cops rather than a 15-50 person agency fielding their own team. Having said that, some of the regional teams have stronger reputations than others.

Ohio has 3 full time teams (at least that I know of), one of which is the State Patrol’s and is spread out all over the State. The rest are collateral duty teams and many are multi-jurisdictional teams. Very few that I know of meet the NTOA standards. Not all part time teams are created equal. Cincinnati and Dayton are collateral duty teams.

[DpdG]

Ohio has 3 full time teams (at least that I know of), one of which is the State Patrol’s and is spread out all over the State. The rest are collateral duty teams and many are multi-jurisdictional teams. Very few that I know of meet the NTOA standards. Not all part time teams are created equal. Cincinnati and Dayton are collateral duty teams.

Like other facets of policing, I suspect SWAT stuff is regional.

Likely due to our state’s small size, we have a pretty strong state TOA and have regional multi-jurisdictional teams loosely based on counties (though not run by the sheriffs’ offices). While I can’t say what every team does, the teams in my portion of the state largely comply with the 192 hours, give or take a couple hour here and there due to weather, covid outbreaks, etc….

At one point I think NTOA had a tier system for part-time teams- basically barricade/containment teams at the low end and full-service to include HRT at the top. Haven’t heard of the tiers in years, so perhaps that got phased out?

[TC215]

At one point I think NTOA had a tier system for part-time teams- basically barricade/containment teams at the low end and full-service to include HRT at the top. Haven’t heard of the tiers in years, so perhaps that got phased out?

Still a thing.

Tier 1 is all mission capabilities, including deliberate hostage rescue.

Tier 2 is everything but deliberate hostage rescue.

It goes down to a Tactical Response Team, then a perimeter/containment team.

I pretty much agree with the NTOA standard. I think basically any part-time team believing they’re equipped for deliberate HR is fooling themselves.

https://ntoa.org/pdf/swatstandards.pdf

[DpdG]

Still a thing.

Tier 1 is all mission capabilities, including deliberate hostage rescue.

Tier 2 is everything but deliberate hostage rescue.

It goes down to a Tactical Response Team, then a perimeter/containment team.

I pretty much agree with the NTOA standard. I think basically any part-time team believing they’re equipped for deliberate HR is fooling themselves.

https://ntoa.org/pdf/swatstandards.pdf

Fully agree. Emergency HR is one thing and when that flag goes up, even patrol should have some modicum of capability (looking at you Uvalde). Planned deliberate HR is (in my opinion) far beyond a collateral duty team, and honestly probably a number of full-time teams. That’s the Super Bowl of tactical units.

[TC215]

Fully agree. Emergency HR is one thing and when that flag goes up, even patrol should have some modicum of capability (looking at you Uvalde). Planned deliberate HR is (in my opinion) far beyond a collateral duty team, and honestly probably a number of full-time teams. That’s the Super Bowl of tactical units.

Yep. I think there are just two or three fed tac teams that are authorized for deliberate HR. The part-time FBI team here trains a week every month, and they are quite good, but they’re still emergency HR only.

Of course, there are plenty of local teams that train 8-10 hours a month that think they can do anything because they’re “SWAT.”

[Lon]

I pretty much agree with the NTOA standard. I think basically any part-time team believing they’re equipped for deliberate HR is fooling themselves.
https://ntoa.org/pdf/swatstandards.pdf

Agreed. When I was SWAT Commander, I had already made the decision in my mind that should we ever have a true hostage situation scenario I’d be calling specific teams to help.

92315

[feudist]

Main "Story"
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-07-27/no-culture-of-violence-in-swat-lapd-review-finds

Referenced "story"
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-29/lapd-swat-unit-controlled-by-swat-mafia-that-encourages-deadly-shootings-sergeant-lawsuit-alleges

"SWAT officers did not use force in 1,245 of the 1,350 incidents they responded to between 2012 and 2022 ... "

Do they still screech about the SIS assassinator squad?

[TC215]

Agreed. When I was SWAT Commander, I had already made the decision in my mind that should we ever have a true hostage situation scenario I’d be calling specific teams to help.

92315

The SWAT commander I started under knew what we were capable of, and more importantly, what we weren't capable of. We planned this with FBI for years-- If we had a legit hostage, we would call the FBI regional team. They would respond and simultaneously call the enhanced team in Atlanta and HRT, who would both respond.

Fast forward a few years...that SWAT commander promoted out, and we got a new SWAT commander that thought we were SEAL Team 6. My last call-out, just a few days before I left the PD for my current agency, was a true hostage situation. Bad guy fires shots at a gas station and took the clerk hostage. Had a cocked 9mm to the clerk's head, finger on the trigger, for over six hours. I, as the only assistant team leader on scene, went to the SWAT commander and the brass and said we need to request the FBI team. I was told in no uncertain terms that we would be taking care of it by ourselves (which would have been way better if we had ever trained for such a thing).

Snipers were on one side of the building, and I had the entry team on the opposite side. I was literally having to walk guys through a HR entry (push and go, pull and hold, etc) because we never worked on HR stuff. It didn't matter, really, because the brass said we'd only get the greenlight if the bad guy shot the hostage. :rolleyes: The only reason it ended peacefully was because the bad guy started coming down off his high and decided he didn't want to die.

We were supposed to be the "best" team in the region...Truthfully, we were just good (at some things)...we weren't great. I suspect that's true of a lot of part-time teams.


Do they still screech about the SIS assassinator squad?

My SIS buddy says that their tactics have changed with time and technology...I don't think they find themselves in those situations as often as they used to. That's the impression he gives me, anyway.

[jlw]

Not everything called SWAT is a highly trained team of professionals. How many 'SWAT' teams are just regular bubba officers all TAC'd out?


Anytime the general public sees external body armor and/or a rifle, they call it SWAT. I got calls several times wanting to know why our "SWAT team" had deployed to a given location. I would respond that we didn't have a SWAT team, and the people would argue with me.

**Note: We did have a team at one point, but I disbanded it due to staffing issues. The new admin is trying to get one off of the ground.

[Hambo]

I’ve alway heard that once SWAT arrives on scene and takes over the incident is safely resolved without force 90-95% of the time.

Unless you classified a negotiator talking the suspect to death as homicide. I had a friend who was a negotiator with another department, and he could talk you to death over breakfast.

[Coyotesfan97]

Unless you classified a negotiator talking the suspect to death as homicide. I had a friend who was a negotiator with another department, and he could talk you to death over breakfast.

When I first started on SWAT there was a negotiator who was something like 0/5 for talking to suicidal subjects. I’m not sure if it was bad luck or the way she dealt with people.

[jlw]

When I first started on SWAT there was a negotiator who was something like 0/5 for talking to suicidal subjects. I’m not sure if it was bad luck or the way she dealt with people.

I worked with a guy who unsuccessfully attempted CPR numerous times.

Instead of his radio number, we began calling him but the radio code for notifying the coroner.

[Coyotesfan97]

Not everything called SWAT is a highly trained team of professionals. How many 'SWAT' teams are just regular bubba officers all TAC'd out?

The use of force percentages I discussed are based on nationwide SWAT responses. Not every team is LAPD or LASO. There are smaller jurisdictions that are more of a response team then a SWAT team. It’s been pretty much discussed about Tier levels and the need to know your limitations. jlw had a pretty good point about assumptions based on equipment seen.

[Coyotesfan97]

I worked with a guy who unsuccessfully attempted CPR numerous times.

Instead of his radio number, we began calling him but the radio code for notifying the coroner.

When I first started I was in a big beat on the east side of town. It had a lot of senior living in it. In the morning there were a lot of calls about non responsive people found in bed. My percentage on CPR was pretty low. I’m not sure if it was my lack of experience then with dead people or a need to at least try for the family member. At times I felt like the angel of death. :(

[SeriousStudent]

I worked with a guy who unsuccessfully attempted CPR numerous times.

Instead of his radio number, we began calling him but the radio code for notifying the coroner.


I did CPR for the families and myself.

"So the paramedics got there fast? And they even did CPR and electricity and stuff? Well, they tried, but it must have been poor Henry's time."

[DDTSGM]

When I first started I was in a big beat on the east side of town. It had a lot of senior living in it. In the morning there were a lot of calls about non responsive people found in bed. My percentage on CPR was pretty low. I’m not sure if it was my lack of experience then with dead people or a need to at least try for the family member. At times I felt like the angel of death. :(

One day I was right on the block of a medical call, so I went in, beating the ambulance. Uncle Buck was sitting in the recliner dead with crying family standing around. Being a rookie, and not wanting to deal with talking to crying family members about Uncle Buck, I drug him out of the recliner and began some PR CPR.

My dad's best friend was a captain on the FD and he was with the ambulance when they arrived. At the time, 1976, if CPR was started, it continued until the ER where the person was pronounced. About 30 minutes later I got a call to meet Captain R at the FD. That was the first of several rath good-natured ass chewings I got from my dad's buddy. None of which were deserved.:rolleyes: