View Full Version : Stoeger suspended from USPSA
Posted a suspension letter on his FB. I am sure that he has been a pain in their ass for years and I don't think he has gone the right way about how to do it at times. I am not privy to any particular details but I don't know how constructive his criticism has been. At the same time he wasn't wrong about many things. What upsets me the most is that BOD suspended a dude for simply speaking his mind against their leadership style and decisions.
I have 13 months left till my next renewal. If this stuff doesn't get resolved the way I think it should, I will consider not renewing and just shooting as a non-member.
I just got a renewal notice. Considering dropping it. Sad since I’ve been a member since ‘93. They’ve become quite the train wreck over the years.
Eyesquared
07-29-2022, 12:07 AM
Posted a suspension letter on his FB. I am sure that he has been a pain in their ass for years and I don't think he has gone the right way about how to do it at times. I am not privy to any particular details but I don't know how constructive his criticism has been. At the same time he wasn't wrong about many things. What upsets me the most is that BOD suspended a dude for simply speaking his mind against their leadership style and decisions.
I have 13 months left till my next renewal. If this stuff doesn't get resolved the way I think it should, I will consider not renewing and just shooting as a non-member.
Agreed and they have suspended others for reasons that I don't think are justifiable
Exactly what did the letter from USPSA say?
Bucky
07-29-2022, 05:28 AM
Exactly what did the letter from USPSA say?
This, non Facebook users want to know.
TCFD273
07-29-2022, 06:05 AM
Exactly what did the letter from USPSA say?
All the post shows
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I think that he's been an outspoken critic for a long time. But he's an outspoken critic who is probably the best USPSA shooter in the country on any given day, runs more than one USPSA centric business, promotes the sport, and genuinely cares about the fairness of the competition and the way it's conducted.
My understanding is...
When he sees internal emails where BOD members imply membership is stupid, and sees them hosting a nationals in a place with a magazine ban and telling members not to worry about it... he makes it public. Because he cares about the sport. Perhaps he isn't very cooth, but he isnt wrong.
If the organization wants to be taken seriously and become a respected sport (ala ufc) then they need to make smarter choices. Like not hosting nationals where there is a magazine ban. Like not saying its okay without consulting lawyers. Like not saying there is no risk to the organization and we dont care what happens.
My USPSA lapsed during covid and I havent renewed because I havent been able to get to matches. But something needs to change. Even with AIWB made specifically okay I get issues at my closest range, and I'm tired of that. Then the leadership allows blatent cheating from Tony Cowden and bans it's best competitor because he's blunt and points out their incompetence?
I've got to much going on lately to care about USPSA imploding. Let me know when another organization becomes IPSC America.
The criticism levied towards the Board, the Prez, and DME has been pretty thick in the past year:
- Board was borderline nonreactive to the Stage Zero documented cheating issues
- One of the Board members was documented getting his son a second bite at the chrono apple at a major
- Cameogate was a fiasco from day one, between the blatant misstatements of Colorado law, to the public removal of Infinity as a match sponsor, to the Board demanding that competitors sign an affidavit confirming knowledge and compliance with the law, to the witch-hunt to find the “leaking” member when it turned out that (1) the information in question was publicized months before and (2) the Board itself was leaking comms and letters to “friendly” propagandist social media accounts
- Board members documenting their own collections of manufacturer-supplied ammo in their garages
- USPSA annual financials demonstrate a year-over-year loss despite solid membership income, with no itemization or accounting of Board expenses or travel
- the Board attempting to restructure the Presidency specifically around (1) keeping guys like Matt Hopkins from being able to run and (2) vesting more executive powers in a Board-selected executive manager position
It’s devolved into more personal spats, with Ben making a deal about a certain higher-up’s history with domestic violence and another Board member’s history with killing dogs at his day job, and now it turns out that DME was stalking and trying to meet the owner of a particular social media account face-to-face… at this point, screw USPSA. I say that as someone who loves USPSA.
I’m not renewing. I’ve asked to terminate my membership. Members and shooters pay their salaries, and to see a year’s worth of documented mismanagement, ignorance of competitive integrity issues, reckless behavior towards the membership and the law, the wielding of petty power to target critics—it’s a shame. These guys have made good money being buffoons. I’ll shoot local outlaws, IDPA matches, and other shooting sports at my local ranges before giving those nerds another penny’s worth of activity fees.
spinmove_
07-29-2022, 07:58 AM
The criticism levied towards the Board, the Prez, and DME has been pretty thick in the past year:
- Board was borderline nonreactive to the Stage Zero documented cheating issues
- One of the Board members was documented getting his son a second bite at the chrono apple at a major
- Cameogate was a fiasco from day one, between the blatant misstatements of Colorado law, to the public removal of Infinity as a match sponsor, to the Board demanding that competitors sign an affidavit confirming knowledge and compliance with the law, to the witch-hunt to find the “leaking” member when it turned out that (1) the information in question was publicized months before and (2) the Board itself was leaking comms and letters to “friendly” propagandist social media accounts
- Board members documenting their own collections of manufacturer-supplied ammo in their garages
- USPSA annual financials demonstrate a year-over-year loss despite solid membership income, with no itemization or accounting of Board expenses or travel
- the Board attempting to restructure the Presidency specifically around (1) keeping guys like Matt Hopkins from being able to run and (2) vesting more executive powers in a Board-selected executive manager position
It’s devolved into more personal spats, with Ben making a deal about a certain higher-up’s history with domestic violence and another Board member’s history with killing dogs at his day job, and now it turns out that DME was stalking and trying to meet the owner of a particular social media account face-to-face… at this point, screw USPSA. I say that as someone who loves USPSA.
I’m not renewing. I’ve asked to terminate my membership. Members and shooters pay their salaries, and to see a year’s worth of documented mismanagement, ignorance of competitive integrity issues, reckless behavior towards the membership and the law, the wielding of petty power to target critics—it’s a shame. These guys have made good money being buffoons. I’ll shoot local outlaws, IDPA matches, and other shooting sports at my local ranges before giving those nerds another penny’s worth of activity fees.
This. Right. Here.
I couldn’t have put it better myself on any of it. Yes, Ben is abrasive and a troll at times, but he’s also absolutely correct on all the shenanigans the organization has been up to. The org somehow can’t ban blatant cheaters, but they’ll sure as hell ban Ben as well as others that are critical of the board and/or those who show the evidence of cheating.
I won’t be renewing my membership until the org apologizes for the crap they’ve mismanaged, reinstated certain members, and/or most of the board is replaced. At this point just about all of the board needs to be replaced, so it’s going to take a minute. In the meantime I’ll shoot locals and go try my hand at IDPA. These clowns are somehow spending themselves into oblivion and can’t manage their way out of a wet paper bag. I can’t condone such behavior, therefore I’ll go somewhere else. IDPA seems to be the next best thing and there’s no shortage of locals around me here.
I'll have to get familiar with the complaint the led to Mr. Stoeger's suspension by the board...is there anything specific, which would elaborate on the cited "activity bringing discredit to the corporation"?
I'm scheduled to renew in September. I haven't shot a match since last October due to:reasons. The ongoing shenanigans described online do bother me a bit though, but other than my vote, I have zero impact on anything.
What alternatives are there? For me, in the greater Sarasota area, not much. There's a local outlaw indoor match weekly on Monday's I was going to start, to knock the rust off. I can get to matches in Ruskin FL, but these are/were USPSA. Frostproof is probably a 90 minute drive one way, a hefty time and gas investment for 140 rounds of shooting in six hours of a match. Maybe I will see what IDPA is like, and compare. Or go find another Steel Challenge match; the one I shot a few years ago was a lot of fun.
Guess I'll wait and see how this shakes out before paying for another year of membership.
I don’t think Stoeger has loved USPSA for a while now.
He shot two USPSA matches in the past year.
He has shot a number of IPSC events overseas, however.
I don’t think the suspension was particularly unexpected for him.
Stoeger is currently banned from Pistol-Forum, I’m still renewing my membership here.
I'll have to get familiar with the complaint the led to Mr. Stoeger's suspension by the board...is there anything specific, which would elaborate on the cited "activity bringing discredit to the corporation"?
I'm scheduled to renew in September. I haven't shot a match since last October due to:reasons. The ongoing shenanigans described online do bother me a bit though, but other than my vote, I have zero impact on anything.
What alternatives are there? For me, in the greater Sarasota area, not much. There's a local outlaw indoor match weekly on Monday's I was going to start, to knock the rust off. I can get to matches in Ruskin FL, but these are/were USPSA. Frostproof is probably a 90 minute drive one way, a hefty time and gas investment for 140 rounds of shooting in six hours of a match. Maybe I will see what IDPA is like, and compare. Or go find another Steel Challenge match; the one I shot a few years ago was a lot of fun.
Guess I'll wait and see how this shakes out before paying for another year of membership.
Ben was an active and loud voice on the topics mentioned in my post. He has been a longstanding and loud critic of the Board since the Foley-era fiascos, Cowdengate, etc. and has only raised more targeted criticism in the past year.
Ben was an active and loud voice on the topics mentioned in my post. He has been a longstanding and loud critic of the Board since the Foley-era fiascos, Cowdengate, etc. and has only raised more targeted criticism in the past year.
Ok thanks.
It seems to me hard to believe that honest and open criticism would be taken as "bringing discredit to the corporation"? That is a real head scratcher for me.
I'd like to see the BoD issue a statement defining what exactly caused them to take this action against Mr. Stoeger. I logged on to the members area, and all I can see that might be related is this posted 7/12, the Agenda for the 7/26/22 BOD meeting. It cryptically includes an item 5, "Member Discipline":
92137
I went on the BS YT channel and watched a short segment of Practical Shooting After Dark, Episode 197, but aside from a casual reference to a notice he received "3 days ago" I didn't hear anything specific (I might have missed it.)
https://youtu.be/wz3L6Mrym-U
Stoeger is currently banned from Pistol-Forum, I’m still renewing my membership here.
Pistol-Forum.com isn't a multi-million dollar non-profit paying six-figure salaries to (documented) mendacious buffoons. It's also not the means by which a national/international competitor can secure high-profile victories and team placements to market a training business and books. It's just an online discussion forum, and Ben has always been notoriously bad at being civil online.
Ok thanks.
It seems to me hard to believe that honest and open criticism would be taken as "bringing discredit to the corporation"? That is a real head scratcher for me.
I'd like to see the BoD issue a statement defining what exactly caused them to take this action against Mr. Stoeger. I logged on to the members area, and all I can see that might be related is this posted 7/12, the Agenda for the 7/26/22 BOD meeting. It cryptically includes an item 5, "Member Discipline":
92137
The Board went into "executive session" before voting unanimously on the indefinite suspensions of several members, including Ben and the owner of the Practical Shooting Insights social media accounts. So, there is and will be zero public record for the membership to review what the Board considered before the vote.
Stoeger is currently banned from Pistol-Forum, I’m still renewing my membership here.
The similarities between two situations are:
1. Both were / are mistakes. That said, I can see how TLG had to make that choice but not USPSA.
2. I can choose to participate in core activities of both entities without paying a penny to either. So far I've chosen not to do so but my position may change depending on their conduct.
fly out
07-29-2022, 08:43 AM
The bylaws say that the term (length) of the suspension must be identified in the suspension. I wonder if "indefinite" is a valid identification in this context?
The Board went into "executive session" before voting unanimously on the indefinite suspensions of several members, including Ben and the owner of the Practical Shooting Insights social media accounts. So, there is and will be zero public record for the membership to review what the Board considered before the vote.
Ah, ok, I guess I can see that. Sort of like in corporate; HR decisions are not shared to Gen Pop after someone is terminated.
2. I can choose to participate in core activities of both entities without paying a penny to either. So far I've chosen not to do so but my position may change depending on their conduct.
Well, well, well. I didn't know that. So basically I can shoot a match as a non-member and just carry on as usual? Good to know.
Well, well, well. I didn't know that. So basically I can shoot a match as a non-member and just carry on as usual? Good to know.
Local matches yes, but your classifiers won't count. I don't think you can shoot level III matches.
45dotACP
07-29-2022, 08:57 AM
I don’t think Stoeger has loved USPSA for a while now.
He shot two USPSA matches in the past year.
He has shot a number of IPSC events overseas, however.
I don’t think the suspension was particularly unexpected for him.
Stoeger is currently banned from Pistol-Forum, I’m still renewing my membership here.
The difference being the leadership of PF isn't a group of tone deaf snowflakes.
It appears Stoeger was banned from USPSA for revealing the inner workings of the org and how they came to the bright idea of holding nationals in a state that bans high cap magazines and not really having any legal counsel on whether they'd get a ton of their members arrested.
He was banned from PF for trolling.
I won't be renewing my USPSA membership it appears. Not because Ben got the Banhammer (which yes, happens frequently) but because of the stuff he has brought to light about USPSA as an organization.
I thought once Foley got the axe that the leadership would improve, but that doesn't appear to be so.
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I thought once Foley got the axe that the leadership would improve, but that doesn't appear to be so.
C’mon man, really?
Most culturally poisoned organizations aren’t so because of one person (Foley), it’s a systemic issue almost always.
Change takes time. To think that it would immediately do an about face, is naive and suggests that disproportionate scapegoating was placed on Foley.
Cheap Shot
07-29-2022, 09:14 AM
My support:
Local USPSA club leadership - these guys do tremendous work
USPSA as an organization - they help the clubs
Ben is Ben.
Why doesnt he work with USPSA to fix it? Why didnt he run for president?
"Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger." (1894) T.R.
I'm many years out from knowing all the latest issues with the USPSA, I'm looking forward to reading the opinions of PF members who ARE much more qualified to speak on this.
I would go so far as to say that this is the result that Stoeger wanted and expected.
USPSA is a “corporation.”
Doesn’t matter who they “serve,” a corporation primarily looks out for its own self interests, unfortunately.
45dotACP
07-29-2022, 09:32 AM
C’mon man, really?
Most culturally poisoned organizations aren’t so because of one person (Foley), it’s a systemic issue almost always.
Change takes time. To think that it would immediately do an about face, is naive and suggests that disproportionate scapegoating was placed on Foley.Fair enough.
Foley was just a symptom of a greater issue in play.
Certainly Ben hasn't been a super active competitor despite being one of the better shooters in the game so I'm sure it's probably not gonna change what he does or how popular he is.
To your point...this may actually amplify his voice and prove the points he makes.
Ben doesn't need to get involved or run for president or whatever...you can point out the failures and hypocrisy in others for it's own sake. Most members probably wouldn't even give that much of a shit.
....Unless he gets banned for saying it.
Then there's questions about whether some truth to what he says.
If you just leave him alone and don't engage, he's some guy bitching and moaning. People do that.
But yeah go ahead and attempt to silence him.
I'm sure that's possibly the biggest way to ensure he will continue to be a pain in the ass for the USPSA BOD for years to come.
This was a really bad move for them.
I won't be a part of any organization that has such sensitive and butt hurt leadership. If you're the boss, you've got to have some thick skin. Can't be a good leader if you're always crying about the unfairness of the criticism that you gotta eat.
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spinmove_
07-29-2022, 09:40 AM
My support:
Local USPSA club leadership - these guys do tremendous work
USPSA as an organization - they help the clubs
Ben is Ben.
Why doesnt he work with USPSA to fix it? Why didnt he run for president?
"Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger." (1894) T.R.
I'm many years out from knowing all the latest issues with the USPSA, I'm looking forward to reading the opinions of PF members who ARE much more qualified to speak on this.
Ben did try to work with USPSA to try to fix the issue…as much as a single member can. At the end of the day, Ben is just a single member just like the rest of us. Dude’s got a podcast, so within that role he brings light to the goings on within the org. He’s not a board member. He’s not the President. The board heard his opinions and thoughts and basically told him to go pound sand.
As wonderful a competitor as Ben is, he isn’t President material and be knows it. He doesn’t want the job nor does he think he’d be all that good for it. Would he do better than Foley? Absolutely. But being better than Foley isn’t exactly a high bar to get over…
Ben’s doing exactly what he should be doing. Being a supremely good competitor, an excellent instructor, and someone who talks about competition related topics on his podcast.
RJ the podcast before that may be better to understand the problems. It's also got some great advice on diagnosing vision issues from the 3rd person view.
If you instagram, @practical.shooting.insights
guymontag
07-29-2022, 10:00 AM
Sounds like the NRA.
I left USPSA due to life circumstances, while I’ll be returning to matches and competitions soon enough, I won’t be a card carrying member. It’s sad all these 2A organizations get to be so poisonous and political… people I guess.
https://www.instagram.com/practical.shooting.insights/
45dotACP
07-29-2022, 10:48 AM
https://www.instagram.com/practical.shooting.insights/Lots of cringe ass behavior from the BOD in that there account.
Diet stalking sure doesn't seem like a good look for the Director of Media Events for USPSA...
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Lots of cringe ass behavior from the BOD in that there account.
Diet stalking sure doesn't seem like a good look for the Director of Media Events for USPSA...
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I expect that this is what's going to happen, both parties trying to prove that their opponent crossed the line, doxxing and stuff. That's what various social media posts indicate. Ben, in my observations, is a very intelligent dude so hopefully he did better than that.
But yeah go ahead and attempt to silence him.
I'm sure that's possibly the biggest way to ensure he will continue to be a pain in the ass for the USPSA BOD for years to come.
This was a really bad move for them.
I won't be a part of any organization that has such sensitive and butt hurt leadership. If you're the boss, you've got to have some thick skin. Can't be a good leader if you're always crying about the unfairness of the criticism that you gotta eat.
I guess there’s always the question of how far do you go with that.
Do you remove yourself from the Republican / Democrat establishment because of the leader?
What if you’re military and the “leaders” change with the political climate…
But you’re in it for your buddies on the ground and just kind of ignore the BS at the top.
I like the community, I ignore the leadership. I’d prefer better leadership but seeing the state of American government, I don’t have much expectation for USPSA.
fatdog
07-29-2022, 11:46 AM
This was a really bad move for them....
Essential PR truth, any time you attempt to silence your critics just for being critical and hide behind "for the good of the institution" or "for the good of the sport" or "their conduct (if it is only their speech) is damaging to us" etc. you have violated a fundamental rule of public relations.
These ignorant mopes just threw the boomerang.
It is obvious there isn't a real PR or brand/image professional among them, or one they are consulting.
I think more powerful than withdrawing from the organization, people would be better served STAYING in the organization and having voting campaigns on issues to bolster numbers.
Removing your voice isn’t going to change the organization.
Write to the BOD and tell them you’re staying instead of leaving, but you’re going to vote to oust poor behavior.
45dotACP
07-29-2022, 12:01 PM
I guess there’s always the question of how far do you go with that.
Do you remove yourself from the Republican / Democrat establishment because of the leader?
What if you’re military and the “leaders” change with the political climate…
But you’re in it for your buddies on the ground and just kind of ignore the BS at the top.
I like the community, I ignore the leadership. I’d prefer better leadership but seeing the state of American government, I don’t have much expectation for USPSA.
Well you go as far as you can tolerate I suppose.
I can't really extricate myself from politics in America. If this country goes down in flames, then we peasants in steerage go with it.
At the end of the day, USPSA is just a hobby, and I'm under no obligation to pay an organization if I see them partaking in anything I deem to be nonsense. The whole ship can burn and I won't care if I'm not on board.
I can just go shoot outlaw matches and attend the practical pistol practice sessions a nearby range puts on with the help of a local GM.
I might even shoot a few local matches just to see how my U class self compares with the local heat.
But I was never going to be a top level guy.
Maybe you will given your passion and drive, but for me it was always about learning to move with a gun, how to use a holster correctly, and having a place to socialize and practice among like minded men and women.
I can do that without financially supporting a bunch of nincompoops.
I do still have my expectations, but maybe I'm just a 32 year old boomer.
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45dotACP totally valid.
Investing time in an organization’s health is something a lot of us (including myself) just don’t care that much to do.
I’m in it for my local club, my friends and my own self-challenge enjoyment.
For me it looks a little different.
If I have the choice of attending a poorly run local outlaw match versus the local USPSA club that puts on a great match, I’ll support the USPSA club with dollars and presence.
It still supports the overall USPSA organization, but my goal is to support the local club.
Even if I don’t pay personal membership dues, I’m still supporting the club and USPSA in general.
If that makes sense.
If my local club decided to dis-affiliate, I would happily still run local matches and not have anything to do with USPSA.
But I’m going to support the local people and ignore the politics and pissing as much as possible.
I like the community, I ignore the leadership. I’d prefer better leadership but seeing the state of American government, I don’t have much expectation for USPSA.
You get out of here with these sensical thoughtful answers.
I agree. I’m not a huge fan of how this is going. I just can only have so much outrage, and I need to get better at shooting. So I stay (and I need to get back to a match).
Honestly, I’m second thinking my NRA membership and re-joining the NRA-ILA given joshs’s contributions alone. I’ve made contributions there specifically for this purpose.
I need to re-join pf.
I dunno - I’ve kind of come to the same conclusion. Taking our ball and going home isn’t going to solve it.
Also, Ben does enjoy this kind of thing. He started a separate forum at one point called the doodie project. That apparently was shut down in some other spat that I don’t know or care about.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/209197-so-what-happened-to-doodie/
I do think we need whistleblowers in orgs, but I also think Ben starts this crap. And I own his mini targets, several of his books, etc. I regret not taking a class when he was in the county over a few years back but I think we’d just had a baby or something and weekends were the wife’s break.
Anyway. Sucks - hopefully he gets back.
ETA: Renewed my PF account.
jetfire
07-29-2022, 02:15 PM
Honestly, the thing that USPSA is doing right now that's genuinely dumb is they're letting Ben control the narrative on this one
Zincwarrior
07-29-2022, 02:42 PM
I would go so far as to say that this is the result that Stoeger wanted and expected.
USPSA is a “corporation.”
Doesn’t matter who they “serve,” a corporation primarily looks out for its own self interests, unfortunately.
The primary purpose of bureaucracy is to increase the strength of the bureaucracy.
feudist
07-29-2022, 03:03 PM
The primary purpose of bureaucracy is to increase the strength of the bureaucracy.
That's a Universal Law.
I would go so far as to say that this is the result that Stoeger wanted and expected.
USPSA is a “corporation.”
Doesn’t matter who they “serve,” a corporation primarily looks out for its own self interests, unfortunately.
That only applies to a for-profit corporation, because the D&O’s duties are to exercise care and loyalty to maximize returns to investors. USPSA is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, so the duty of care charged to the D&Os of the corporation is really focused on two things: furthering the purposes of the organization and maintaining compliance with non-profit regulations.
The competitive integrity issues are not a probably not a violation of those duties, just issues of personal character. Arguably, that goes the same for decisions to suspend members because of their call-outs.
- The lack of transparent accounting of Board expenses and travel is a potential problem, especially when they have driven the organization into a fiscal deficit in the past financial year (membership and activity fee income have not changed from prior years).
- Folks receiving caches of ammo from manufacturers for their own personal use is a potential problem, because that is self-interested dealing that does not further the organization’s or membership’s interests.
- Spending the organization’s money(in a deficit) on a witch-hunt of a “leaking” member, when emails and public records show that there was no leak and they knew it, is a potential problem.
- Finally, all of the documentation of leadership trying to find ways to skirt, actively violating, and putting members in a position to violate Colorado law would probably place the organization’s non-profit status at risk if the wrong anti-gun politician/attorney got involved.
I personally don’t have a problem with people staying in USPSA because their local matches are well-run. I can’t give USPSA any more of my own money until it starts acting like a non-profit again.
Our local “top” GM started an outlaw match under multi-gun scoring rules as an alternative, and it is exceptionally good. The same clubs and most of the same shooters locally participate in IDPA, which helps support our local ranges. There are also alternative venues for competition, like bullseye and the clay sports, that are in desperate need of young blood and provide plenty of translatable skills for practical shooting.
Sal Picante
07-29-2022, 04:31 PM
For me, in the greater Sarasota area, not much. There's a local outlaw indoor match weekly on Monday's I was going to start, to knock the rust off. I can get to matches in Ruskin FL, but these are/were USPSA.
Monday night is worth it: come visit me. Come for the shooting, stay for the beer and burger combo at "The Mable".
You can shoot matches in Ruskin as a non - uspsa member.
Wyoming Antelope club has almost nightly matches. Hansens in Punta Gorda has almost nightly matches.
Lakeland IDPA is in Fort Meade and has a good quality monthly IDPA match.
Again, you don't have to be a USPSA member to shoot local matches. Will be earn a classification? No, but who cares. Let's go shoot.
That only applies to a for-profit corporation, because the D&O’s duties are to exercise care and loyalty to maximize returns to investors. USPSA is a 501(c)(3) non-profit, so the duty of care charged to the D&Os of the corporation is really focused on two things: furthering the purposes of the organization and maintaining compliance with non-profit regulations.
I’m going to agree with the second part and disagree with the first part, having worked for a number of high profile “nonprofits” that were as rabidly corporate as John Grisham’s the Firm.
What I was getting at was that the corporation of USPSA is only interested in the corporation of USPSA and not necessarily in the membership. Just like the nonprofits I worked in couldn’t give two shits about the people on the ground who made things run. We were / are expendable and replaceable plebs to their master plan.
Isn’t the NRA a nonprofit, too?
Norville
07-29-2022, 05:39 PM
It’s a sad state of affairs. Ben’s a loudmouth, the “leadership “ is a good ol’ boys network, and my wife just told me to quit such an organization.
It’s a sad state of affairs. Ben’s a loudmouth, the “leadership “ is a good ol’ boys network, and my wife just told me to quit such an organization.
Well, maybe getting an Asian marine president soon will change some of the culture?
Well, maybe getting an Asian marine president soon will change some of the culture?
Mr. “we need a code of conduct and disciplinary powers for members’ statements about USPSA outside of matches?”
That Asian Marine?
Norville
07-29-2022, 07:03 PM
Well, maybe getting an Asian marine president soon will change some of the culture?
Hope and change!
Mr. “we need a code of conduct and disciplinary powers for members’ statements about USPSA outside of matches?”
That Asian Marine?
You don’t think that we should?
There’s plenty of bad behavior on both sides of all these debacles.
JRV
In times like these, I’m always reminded of the Aesop’s fable about Belling the Cat.
https://youtu.be/-89LoqnHv_U
There are a lot of people who (not you) will indignantly exclaim that things are “unacceptable!” but there aren’t any viable alternatives. It’s kind of the “2/10 would not bang” criticism of models.
Hey, that Asian marine might not be your cuppa, but look at the available candidates… and look at the other runoff candidate and tell me “who will bell the cat?”
Eyesquared
07-29-2022, 09:12 PM
You don’t think that we should?
There’s plenty of bad behavior on both sides of all these debacles.
I think that would be a bad idea given how we've seen the org use the powers it already has.
For what it's worth I totally get why people would choose to continue participating in USPSA. I reupped my membership last week and registered for my first match in over a year. From what I can tell it's going to be a pretty full match, and there may be more heat than ever with more M class and up shooters than I've ever seen in my local matches. I think it'll be hard to find a local IDPA match with 5 M class level shooters in just one division.
I think that would be a bad idea given how we've seen the org use the powers it already has.
For what it's worth I totally get why people would choose to continue participating in USPSA. I reupped my membership last week and registered for my first match in over a year. From what I can tell it's going to be a pretty full match, and there may be more heat than ever with more M class and up shooters than I've ever seen in my local matches. I think it'll be hard to find a local IDPA match with 5 M class level shooters in just one division.
The practical insight guy was pretty over the line doxxing too.
Do you think this is reasonable to post?
92180
That’s just as shitty as what they’re doing to him.
92182
Like I said, douches all around. Everyone gets dirty when mud slinging.
Eyesquared
07-29-2022, 10:15 PM
The practical insight guy was pretty over the line doxxing too.
Do you think this is reasonable to post?
92180
That’s just as shitty as what they’re doing to him.
Honestly, yes. I may be misinformed but I think this stuff is public information if someone cares to look it up, so I am not sure I buy the argument that there is an expectation of privacy. He doesn't seem to have called out any individual by name which lends to the argument that the intent of the post is not harassing an individual but pointing out that as a group the board has not demonstrated any understanding of financial management practices or sound judgment in general. If these statements are not true then they would be fairly straightforward to refute.
Honestly, yes. I may be misinformed but I think this stuff is public information if someone cares to look it up, so I am not sure I buy the argument that there is an expectation of privacy. He doesn't seem to have called out any individual by name which lends to the argument that the intent of the post is not harassing an individual but pointing out that as a group the board has not demonstrated any understanding of financial management practices or sound judgment in general. If these statements are not true then they would be fairly straightforward to refute.
Just because it’s public information, it can still be harassment.
Especially with the veiled threat that he could add names any time if he wishes.
It smells like a threat and harassment to me.
It’s a pretty small group so I think it’s pretty inflammatory.
What did the insight guy think was going to happen?
Eyesquared
07-29-2022, 10:24 PM
Just because it’s public information, it can still be harassment.
It’s a pretty small group so I think it’s pretty inflammatory.
What did the insight guy think was going to happen?
I think you have fair points. There is room for debate about what is appropriate to say about someone even if it is factual, relevant, and publicly available. I am somewhat skeptical of the argument that (debatable) harrassment justifies suspending a member especially when employees of the org and board members also seem to be perfectly willing to harass, namecall, or doxx members. Sort of like how mutual combat disqualifies someone from arguing that they killed someone in self defense. I haven't been following this very closely so I may be wrong, but apparently someone went to the Insights guy's house to confront him?
I think the last item is irrelevant.
I think 3 is irrelevant.
It was kind of a rhetorical question because the insight guy obviously didn’t think it through. You’re going to get burnt in a scorched earth strategy of that magnitude.
As an aside, here’s an example.
I politely emailed Sherwyn months ago about the cheaty club and classifiers.
He was very polite and said it was the first time he had heard (he had just been promoted to president). He asked for more evidence so I linked him some of the videos of classifiers obviously not set up to spec and a link to the shooting insights page.
He thanked me and that was that.
Eyesquared
07-29-2022, 10:37 PM
It was kind of a rhetorical question because the insight guy obviously didn’t think it through. You’re going to get burnt in a scorched earth strategy of that magnitude.
As an aside, here’s an example.
I politely emailed Sherwyn months ago about the cheaty club and classifiers.
He was very polite and said it was the first time he had heard (he had just been promoted to president). He asked for more evidence so I linked him some of the videos of classifiers obviously not set up to spec and a link to the shooting insights page.
He thanked me and that was that.
I agree and personally am not interested in getting involved in public slap fights with the USPSA board but that has nothing to do with whether or not the board did right. In my mind this is a totally separate issue. I'm glad you had a positive interaction with Sherwyn but in all fairness that exact approach has not always worked historically when it comes to ensuring that competitive equity has been enforced in USPSA.
I haven't been following this very closely so I may be wrong, but apparently someone went to the Insights guy's house to confront him?
I don’t find this particularly aggressive?
92183
Seemed like Jake wanted to talk to Derek.
If he wanted to threaten him, he would have just shown up.
It sounded like a very tone deaf attempt at trying to reconcile or reach middle ground.
But the earth was already burning.
Totally agree with you about mutual combat.
I don’t think either side can claim self defense.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CgmBbagurUb/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Eyesquared
07-29-2022, 10:44 PM
I don’t find this particularly aggressive?
92183
Seemed like Jake wanted to talk to Derek.
If he wanted to threaten him, he would have just shown up.
It sounded like a very tone deaf attempt at trying to reconcile or reach middle ground.
But the earth was already burning.
Totally agree with you about mutual combat.
I don’t think either side can claim self defense.
If he wanted to talk I think DM via Instagram would have easily sufficed. If someone ignores your DMs trying to hit them up on LinkedIn or on personal social media is probably not going to be taken well. Nor would I be amenable to meeting someone who has found my location somehow, on short notice. It's pretty creepy behavior. Totally possible that Jake Martens meant well but it strikes me as unlikely. Imagine if I argued with someone here and then started texting them that I wanted to meet and was at the coffee shop down the block with no context other than that.
JCN—I’m responding to multiple posts.
(1) a Board-enforced code of member conduct for speech outside of USPSA venues? No, I don’t think that’s wise. You’ll have a couple six-figure-salary-entrenched-bureaucrats enforcing their own code through a demonstrably empty-headed Board. (To paraphrase the emails, “fire me or shut up” is how the Board takes its orders). Hard pass.
These guys failed repeatedly to read uncomplicated statutes, hooked up buddies with sweetheart deals regardless of the risk borne by members (Cameo), lied and wasted members’ money hunting for a “leaker,” expensed the organization into a deficit… I wouldn’t let them babysit a goldfish overnight. Why would I or anyone else let them vote on what people can say?
(2) Informing members about the public records of non-anonymous, well-compensated employees is due diligence, not harassment. Members should know, because these are elected Board positions with fiduciary duties and the Directors hired by the Board. Maybe a multiple-bankrupt shouldn’t be involved in approving the budgets of a non-profit...
Financial responsibility is not legal advertising. Past results are a generally a guarantee of future performance.
Members have almost always been at an information deficit. Candidate profiles are half-page blurbs in the magazine, touting RO and MD experience and saying the same truisms about sport shooting as everyone else. You might have a couple relevant Facebook posts and a banal interview with Bill Duda that will be seen by 1% of the members. Elections have disgustingly low turnout despite the size of the membership.
The Insights guy was about relevant information and member engagement with that info. It wasn’t trolling. It was consumer advocacy.
Knowing that some dude can’t keep his own house in order might be a better predictor of ability to run a financially healthy non-profit organization than whether a random chucklefart has connections in the gun industry, MD experience, or shoots GM classifiers.
JRV
I did hear in the interim that the Asian marine had changed his stance to say just during matches and not outside.
So there’s that.
Agree that I would love someone morally and financially sound to run USPSA.
And the USA.
But unfortunately there are a paucity of people like that.
Even more so for a volunteer-ish position.
So we get back to “belling the cat.”
While the insights guy’s motivation and data was very much appreciated by me, he took a decidedly petulant and gleeful vigilante justice meets millennial approach to it, IMO.
Bucky
07-30-2022, 04:52 AM
Just a foot note to all the people quitting the organization. If you shoot a sanctioned match, USPSA is still getting your money.
JRV
I did hear in the interim that the Asian marine had changed his stance to say just during matches and not outside.
So there’s that.
Agree that I would love someone morally and financially sound to run USPSA.
And the USA.
But unfortunately there are a paucity of people like that.
Even more so for a volunteer-ish position.
So we get back to “belling the cat.”
While the insights guy’s motivation and data was very much appreciated by me, he took a decidedly petulant and gleeful vigilante justice meets millennial approach to it, IMO.
Check out the most recent posts. Now that the man has nothing to lose, he’s posting the internal emails.
The petulance was warranted. DME, Prez, and the Board do not deserve deference. They were circling the wagons, planning a CYA statement push, scapegoating members and sponsors, and planning on banning members behind closed doors—all because they, USPSA leadership, wanted to ensure their buddy at Cameo got his money. That money came at a financial and criminal risk to members, but they didn’t care until non-gun media got involved.
They didn’t ban documented cheaters. They helped their own kids cheat. They would risk the org’s non-profit status and members’ security to help a buddy make a buck. They take ultimatums and directions from the DME.
Where does it go from there? You’re right. “Belling the cat.” No one can run with a chance of upsetting the current Board. The magazine and USPSA social media (DME) won’t support opponents. They’ll ban anyone whose platform is too hostile. They have GFDS and The Feed Ramp to do their puff pieces and their own magazine, published with members’ funds. The average voting member doesn’t care and will never see the receipts of current leaderships’ actions.
I’m taking my ball and going home because, if enough people do it, maybe the levee breaks—maybe the ”right” employees get asked to leave, maybe IPSC gets involved to investigate affiliation, maybe Board members and the DME realize the play money and industry influence and the free ammo are running out. Maybe the new Prez starts cleaning house and does it right.
Shooting classifiers for a registered score isn’t worth it to me. That’s going to be different for everyone. I’m gonna go get leg points, shoot some sporting clays, and do some outlaw locals.
Check out the most recent posts. Now that the man has nothing to lose, he’s posting the internal emails.
The petulance was warranted. DME, Prez, and the Board do not deserve deference. They were circling the wagons, planning a CYA statement push, scapegoating members and sponsors, and planning on banning members behind closed doors—all because they, USPSA leadership, wanted to ensure their buddy at Cameo got his money. That money came at a financial and criminal risk to members, but they didn’t care until non-gun media got involved.
They didn’t ban documented cheaters. They helped their own kids cheat. They would risk the org’s non-profit status and members’ security to help a buddy make a buck. They take ultimatums and directions from the DME.
Where does it go from there? You’re right. “Belling the cat.” No one can run with a chance of upsetting the current Board. The magazine and USPSA social media (DME) won’t support opponents. They’ll ban anyone whose platform is too hostile. They have GFDS and The Feed Ramp to do their puff pieces and their own magazine, published with members’ funds. The average voting member doesn’t care and will never see the receipts of current leaderships’ actions.
I’m taking my ball and going home because, if enough people do it, maybe the levee breaks—maybe the ”right” employees get asked to leave, maybe IPSC gets involved to investigate affiliation, maybe Board members and the DME realize the play money and industry influence and the free ammo are running out. Maybe the new Prez starts cleaning house and does it right.
Shooting classifiers for a registered score isn’t worth it to me. That’s going to be different for everyone. I’m gonna go get leg points, shoot some sporting clays, and do some outlaw locals.
I’m not arguing any of that (except that regardless of warrant, petulance rarely is effective… think of the most Karen-y Karen you can imagine… regardless of the validity of the message, it’s not going to be effective when the delivery is antagonistic).
I also think you are totally justified in your approach.
Personally, I have low expectations of people in power. I expect some level of corruption and nepotism consistent with what we see above. And I don’t expect any replacement will be any better.
It’s how corporations function for the most part. Profit or no. They’re just generally smarter about covering their tracks.
Hey, I have no issue with Ben Stoeger’s girlfriend and C class shooter getting pallets of ammo from Federal as a “brand ambassador.” I don’t really care that Sherwyn got pallets either.
I also don’t GAF that Joyce Wilson runs IDPA despite member dues and there’s a massive conflict of interest with Wilson Combat in terms of product and classing.
I’m an equal opportunity DGAF.
guymontag
07-30-2022, 11:04 AM
Where does it go from there? You’re right. “Belling the cat.” No one can run with a chance of upsetting the current Board. The magazine and USPSA social media (DME) won’t support opponents. They’ll ban anyone whose platform is too hostile. They have GFDS and The Feed Ramp to do their puff pieces and their own magazine, published with members’ funds. The average voting member doesn’t care and will never see the receipts of current leaderships’ actions.
I’m taking my ball and going home because, if enough people do it, maybe the levee breaks—maybe the ”right” employees get asked to leave, maybe IPSC gets involved to investigate affiliation, maybe Board members and the DME realize the play money and industry influence and the free ammo are running out. Maybe the new Prez starts cleaning house and does it right.
Great post. Starving the beast is a perfectly valid tactic.
Sometimes tactics work and sometimes they don’t. Hopefully beneficial change will arise from all this, only time will tell.
I would urge people before leaving to vote in the runoff.
If you disagree with how the board is behaving, then make your vote heard first otherwise it’s like voting for an independent in a presidential election.
rob_s
07-30-2022, 12:10 PM
Anyone else remember when there wasn’t an internet and so you had no way of knowing about any of this silly shit and just showed up to shoot?
Glenn E. Meyer
07-30-2022, 12:40 PM
Amen to that. I just want to have an outlet outside of the boring square range. Just an old fart who wants to draw a gun, move to different targets and shoot them. See if I do it well. If the price is reasonable, or close - IDPA, Steel, USPSA all serve. The internal zealot fights - who cares - again if the price is right to shoot.
I was a member of a local club that fell apart due to this kind of crap. I was asked to be VP to save it. NO, NO! Just moved to another venue.
Bah.
rob_s
07-30-2022, 01:19 PM
Amen to that. I just want to have an outlet outside of the boring square range. Just an old fart who wants to draw a gun, move to different targets and shoot them. See if I do it well. If the price is reasonable, or close - IDPA, Steel, USPSA all serve. The internal zealot fights - who cares - again if the price is right to shoot.
I was a member of a local club that fell apart due to this kind of crap. I was asked to be VP to save it. NO, NO! Just moved to another venue.
Bah.
I e told this story dozens of times…
I started with an idpa club sometime around 2003. We loved each other. We showed up, worked our sasses off in the s Florida sun, shot, and then went to get beers.
then then club started a forum on the website.
Turned out, that guy is a democrat, and that guy is an atheist, and that guy is mad about something he would have forgotten about if he’d hadn’t had a venue to complain, and this other guy likes to get drunk and post at 3 am… and some disgruntled little botch starts reporting us to hq. Culminated in a guy literally walking up and poking me in the chest because he didn’t like being called a “newb” on the forum. Shit continued downhill, mostly due to the forum, after that. Yet for the 75% of shooters that showed up and had no idea of the drama they just kept right on having fun.
Rocky Racoon
07-30-2022, 01:22 PM
Anyone else remember when there wasn’t an internet and so you had no way of knowing about any of this silly shit and just showed up to shoot?
Yeah. You were blissfully unaware and the douchebags got away with it.
You want to go back to that?
This isn’t the same as the pearl clutching and purse swing in your IDPA club did.
rob_s
07-30-2022, 01:24 PM
Yeah. You were blissfully unaware and the douchebags got away with it.
You want to go back to that?
I do, actually.
But I get it, the kids need something to be mad about.
I mean really, who actually gives a fuck? The fact that stegger is a millennial has never escaped me. “but mom, they are WRONG!” So?
Pay your money, shoot your match, go to lunch. Go home. Act like a goddamn grownup with a job.
So some loser in Ohio is skimming off the top. So what. You like shooting the match? Then shut up and let the loser skim. I mean, what kind of absolute trailer trash has to skim from a shooting club. What kind of total loser has to get their rocks off being in charge of some nothing organization?
Fucking kids all need some shit to be indignant about while everyone else just wants to shoot.
Rocky Racoon
07-30-2022, 01:30 PM
This isn’t the same as the pearl clutching and purse swinging your IDPA club did over personalities.
Sunlight is a good disinfectant.
It’s not a millennial thing. I know for a fact the Nancy’s at your IDPA club weren’t millennials.
By the way, havent you been banned or at least run off from various forums over the years? Kinda rich to tell everyone to stop slinging poop when you were pretty abrasive and a huge know it all. You were sort of like Ben, but without any talent. I’m glad to see you’ve matured.
Archer1440
07-30-2022, 01:49 PM
I sure would hate to see PF descend into reddit levels of slack-jawed discourse over a game.
Rocky Racoon
07-30-2022, 02:17 PM
I sure would hate to see PF descend into reddit levels of slack-jawed discourse over a game.
Me too.
Let’s not forget the history of P-F. Todd was banned and censored at M4cabine.net, which subsequently threatened his livelihood. He started P-F as a result.
I’m sure old timers will thought “well, that’s what he gets for poking the bear, he should have kept a low profile and kissed the right rings and remembered his place in the training industry’s pecking order”. But it sucked for him at the time. And he wasn’t even exposing some wrongdoing. He just didn’t “remember his place.”
We are better off in the long run for his banishment, but that doesn’t make what happened right.
rob_s
07-30-2022, 03:44 PM
This isn’t the same as the pearl clutching and purse swinging your IDPA club did over personalities.
It’s the exact same thing.
You just have ent figured it out yet.
Clusterfrack
07-30-2022, 04:19 PM
Folks, let’s work toward having a disagreement without making it personal.
I don’t agree with rob_s, but I’m glad to hear his side of things.
I would urge people before leaving to vote in the runoff.
If you disagree with how the board is behaving, then make your vote heard first otherwise it’s like voting for an independent in a presidential election.
I just tried. Interesting outcome. Didn't have a problem first time around when I voted for Lin. Random error or something else?
It appears there is a problem with your eligibility.
.
.
If you need technical assistance with the voting process, please contact
Help@election-america.com or call (866) 384-9978.
https://qa.election-america.com/USPSA/images/election-europelogo.gif
I just tried. Interesting outcome. Didn't have a problem first time around when I voted for Lin. Random error or something else?
It appears there is a problem with your eligibility.
.
.
If you need technical assistance with the voting process, please contact
Help@election-america.com or call (866) 384-9978.
https://qa.election-america.com/USPSA/images/election-europelogo.gif
They saw that you were talking trash about USPSA and they banned you too.
You just haven’t gotten the letter yet. :D
Eric_L
07-30-2022, 04:37 PM
I’m not arguing any of that (except that regardless of warrant, petulance rarely is effective… think of the most Karen-y Karen you can imagine… regardless of the validity of the message, it’s not going to be effective when the delivery is antagonistic).
I also think you are totally justified in your approach.
Personally, I have low expectations of people in power. I expect some level of corruption and nepotism consistent with what we see above. And I don’t expect any replacement will be any better.
It’s how corporations function for the most part. Profit or no. They’re just generally smarter about covering their tracks.
Hey, I have no issue with Ben Stoeger’s girlfriend and C class shooter getting pallets of ammo from Federal as a “brand ambassador.” I don’t really care that Sherwyn got pallets either.
I also don’t GAF that Joyce Wilson runs IDPA despite member dues and there’s a massive conflict of interest with Wilson Combat in terms of product and classing.
I’m an equal opportunity DGAF.
I think I highlighted the “low expectations” part. That may be the key to avoiding anger at many things in life……
rob_s
07-30-2022, 04:41 PM
I think I highlighted the “low expectations” part. That may be the key to avoiding anger at many things in life……
So, so, so many things.
Shoot, shovel, shut up, repeat.
bofe954
07-30-2022, 04:48 PM
I just tried. Interesting outcome. Didn't have a problem first time around when I voted for Lin. Random error or something else?
It appears there is a problem with your eligibility.
.
.
If you need technical assistance with the voting process, please contact
Help@election-america.com or call (866) 384-9978.
https://qa.election-america.com/USPSA/images/election-europelogo.gif
I just voted and it worked for me.
I just voted and it worked for me.
I did too just now, but only through email they sent me earlier today. I deleted it accidentally and decided to log in and vote through my member's page since it has a link. Trying to use the page link gives a dead end. I had to recover my deleted email to get it done.
OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
07-30-2022, 05:09 PM
I did too just now, but only through email they sent me earlier today. I deleted it accidentally and decided to log in and vote through my member's page since it has a link. Trying to use the page link gives a dead end. I had to recover my deleted email to get it done.
Had the same issue Y but followed your lead & it's done, gracias mi amigo.
Eyesquared
07-30-2022, 07:42 PM
I'm seeing some people I know are critical of the org voting for Bruce. I guess their argument is that the president's authority has been curtailed and that if Bruce becomes pres it would open up an AD spot.
Quantrill
07-30-2022, 10:45 PM
Ben has a public persona for sure. He can be abrasive but he is an awesome shooter, instructor, and he promotes the sport. My son has taken 2 classes with him and he was a total pro. He was very gracious with me picking his brain after class.
His criticism of USPSA is warranted.
Suspension of someone because they disagree with you is where the org is at. It’s lame.
I’m not going to quit shooting USPSA though. I have too much time and money wrapped up in it.
If you drop your membership you can’t vote in the future with the new rule requiring voting members to have been active for >1 year.
We live in a time when outrage is the norm in our society.
Right now the only side that’s telling their story is Stoeger and insights and they are dictating the narrative. Uspsa needs to speak up because the mob has started the revolt.
Stoeger has been actively trying to burn down uspsa bod for a couple years. His podcast has now become a platform to destroy uspsa. When I got active in the sport 18 months ago I got depressed about uspsa by listening to his podcast. Yet matches were a different atmosphere.
Insights doxxed people. I’m not surprised he got suspended. He’s accused lots of people of cheating, stealing ammo, etc. That one seems warranted.
Personally, I don’t like the actions of the board or Stoeger & insights. If DME used company resources to track down insights and text him to meet up then he crossed a line and misused personal data.
Lots of unknown since only one side is telling the story.
I'm seeing some people I know are critical of the org voting for Bruce. I guess their argument is that the president's authority has been curtailed and that if Bruce becomes pres it would open up an AD spot.
Would the spot go to a people vote or picked by the prez?
Eyesquared
07-31-2022, 03:46 PM
Would the spot go to a people vote or picked by the prez?
My understanding of the bylaws is that if the remaining term is over 24 months there's a special election, if not 3 ADs nominate someone. My impression of this is that trying to elect Bruce pres is really more of a "burn it to the ground" thought process that seems shortsighted to me.
I would say that USPSA board members have spoken out about this on social media but understandably it's not really feasible for the whole org to collate whatever rumors have been flying around and then refute them all at once. On the other hand a lot of their behavior as documented in their leaked communications seems self-serving and dysfunctional. Local clubs can be great but I've also seen plenty of drama at the local level.
Clusterfrack
07-31-2022, 03:52 PM
I’m hoping for complete turnover in the BoD in the next few years. I have zero confidence in them, or in NROI. What’s been happening to USPSA over the last 5+ years is beyond unprofessional and frankly embarrassing. If it takes Ben being aggressively trollish to make this happen, fine with me.
Eyesquared
07-31-2022, 03:55 PM
I’m hoping for complete turnover in the BoD in the next few years. I have zero confidence in them, or in NROI. What’s been happening to USPSA over the last 5+ years is beyond unprofessional and frankly embarrassing. If it takes Ben being aggressively trollish to make this happen, fine with me.
I agree although that seems like the best possible case since it seems like the bylaws limit the amount of AD turnovers that can happen in any given year. So people would have to have fairly long memories for this to work out. I'm hoping there will at least be enough adults in the room to make childish/unprofessional behavior no longer tolerable because it seems to me like many people are thinking the current state of the org is about as good as we can expect(!).
Spartan1980
07-31-2022, 05:29 PM
I’m hoping for complete turnover in the BoD in the next few years. I have zero confidence in them, or in NROI. What’s been happening to USPSA over the last 5+ years is beyond unprofessional and frankly embarrassing. If it takes Ben being aggressively trollish to make this happen, fine with me.
It's been going on for longer than that, but I've never seen it this bad from looking at the Insight guy's IG page. Corruption is the word that comes to my mind. Now I know why my area director bud let it go as I never asked him any specifics (he's been out for a 3-4 years now I think). I've been a member for 15 years or so up until covid hit when I let my membership lapse due to no work and even lost my RO cert. Reading all that nonsense makes me feel not as bad about it. It's going to take some time and possibly IPSC stepping in to restore any confidence, IMO. Until then I'll just shoot my local match because we got some great people and I'll play in GSSF.
As to whether to walk away or not, I can understand both sides. There's no harm with either decision one makes about it.
Despite all the shenanigans, I decided to re-up again. I’d like to be part of the solution. If all I can do is vote and shoot local matches, that’s ok with me. The general framework of USPSA competition shooting is worth saving, but unfortunately assholes gonna asshole.
It seemed that he really didn’t want to get booted from USPSA.
He really seemed sad about it.
https://youtu.be/Q-hUf77UCYc
45dotACP
08-01-2022, 09:19 AM
My membership hasn't been active since the pandemic and I havent been active in listening to podcasts/drama abour the sport, but as a member of the Hoi Polloi, it sounds like the BOD is just trying to smother people who got ahold of and published corporate documents/memos.
But they haven't plugged the leak(s)? This will continue.
It sounds like there's a person or several people within USPSA who is/are uncomfortable with how the company is being run.
It sounds like a LOT of stuff the USPSA board thinks is private is very much not.
Somehow I don't think Ben is the one who leaked any of this shit...but he does give it a platform.
It sounds like BOD wants to drop the hammer on dudes who disagree with or troll them...but Ben has literally always been a troll and a bit of an asshole. Hardly an existential threat to USPSA though.
So what changed? Why the pearl clutching about Ben "bringing disrepute to the company" when that's literally his thing?
Money.
More power, more influence. USPSA is significantly larger and wealthier with more members and influence and sponsors than in the past when Ben started on his BS like wearing his chanclas to awards ceremonies and crushing beer cans with his trophies.
Barely competent leadership with sensitive egos and mediocre planning with no PR skills or self awareness was fine in the past...but USPSA is a different beast now and the more money you make at your job, the more desperate (and stupid) you become when anyone threatens to derail your gravy train.
The whole debacle in Colorado that seemed to draw the ire of a large anti-gun org for holding a competition in a state thay had mag bans...eh I don't know that the leadership of the organization needed to gamble on the enforcement of a law they would be encouraging their competitors to break.
Especially when there are other facilities that can host such a competition and they could always put Lo Cap Nats in the ban state (is Lo Cap Nats still a thing? Did they disband L10, SS, Revo and Prod yet? )
It also looks like a PR disaster for a board member driving 5 hours to either high noon it or have a "man to man" talk at a Starbucks with an internet troll who got a hold of his criminal history.
Yeah, that'll go well.
Again, not professional from the standpoint of someone who runs a large business, but par for the course for an enthusiast who gets paid to help run the corporation of his favorite sport.
From the perspective of a layperson however, that's a bad look. Both the criminal history/suspicion of domestic violence part and also the "I demand satisfaction" part when it comes to dealing with detractors.
As an aside, domestic violence is pretty strongly associated with a proclivity towards random violence so from the perspective of the Instagram guy, I wouldn't have met this dude for a "man to man" talk either on the basis of that failing the stupid test. Don't do stupid things like meet someone you pissed off who you reasonably believe may be armed and possibly of violent disposition.
I do have my doubts about how much to believe of that however, given that a DV conviction disqualifies gun ownership, but that gets to the REAL problem USPSA has
Issues with scheduling a nationals match in a ban state aside or a possible coffee shop showdown with a troll aside, USPSA BOD seems content to not give a meaningful or convincing rationale for any of these things.
Not so much as a "I tried to reach the troll guy by email or contact him via lawyer to discuss his slander" about the Starbucks showdown or a "Well we got this OK'd by Colorado legislature and Frostproof wasn't available and no other facilities exist that are large enough."
Speculation can and will run rampant if you don't think people your business is meant to serve, deserve any explanation from leadership, and you just try to lead on the merits of your authority alone.
Tl;Dr: USPSA isn't a tiny fiefdom anymore and cannot be governed or treated as such.
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Eyesquared
08-01-2022, 09:22 AM
It seemed that he really didn’t want to get booted from USPSA.
He really seemed sad about it.
https://youtu.be/Q-hUf77UCYc
That doesn't surprise me at all.
I wasn’t surprised when the USPSA president salary was published.
Does anyone know if there’s financial compensation to become AD?
I (probably mistakenly) thought it was volunteer or nominally paid.
I think it’s tough to have elections and vote well meaning people into positions of corporate leadership without any corporate experience or framework.
Think of AOC… you get unprofessional behavior when you elect people without professional training.
rob_s
08-01-2022, 09:53 AM
I think it’s tough to have elections and vote well meaning people into positions of corporate leadership without any corporate experience or framework.
Think of AOC… you get unprofessional behavior when you elect people without professional training.
this is the main problem with these kinds of things. If people had actually valid and valuable experience managing corporate things they would be out there managing corporate things, not running shooting clubs.
As to Ben's sadness, I'm sure that's at least partially based on the threat to his income as anything else. Whether he only shot 2 matches this year or 10, his career is dependent on the organization, and while his banning may be bullshit I can't imagine how anyone would think you can go on criticizing the org like that for that long and not have consequences.
this is the main problem with these kinds of things. If people had actually valid and valuable experience managing corporate things they would be out there managing corporate things, not running shooting clubs.
As to Ben's sadness, I'm sure that's at least partially based on the threat to his income as anything else. Whether he only shot 2 matches this year or 10, his career is dependent on the organization, and while his banning may be bullshit I can't imagine how anyone would think you can go on criticizing the org like that for that long and not have consequences.
If I could like this more than once. All of it.
And it’s not just that he criticizes it, it’s HOW he criticizes it.
You can’t keep calling people fucking idiots for decades and expect them to be kind to you, no matter what your resume is.
It also goes back to “belling the cat.” It’s all fine and good to be outraged at incompetence or what have you in the board. But by and large these are well meaning people who really have given a lot of their time and energy to trying to make their clubs healthy and strong. I know that’s the case with our AD who is an exceptionally good guy.
The types of people who would be awesomer, aren’t going to donate their time to do the job.
Clusterfrack
08-01-2022, 10:05 AM
this is the main problem with these kinds of things. If people had actually valid and valuable experience managing corporate things they would be out there managing corporate things, not running shooting clubs.
As to Ben's sadness, I'm sure that's at least partially based on the threat to his income as anything else. Whether he only shot 2 matches this year or 10, his career is dependent on the organization, and while his banning may be bullshit I can't imagine how anyone would think you can go on criticizing the org like that for that long and not have consequences.
I agree, and it makes me respect Ben even more. He has worked hard to be one of the best pistol shooters in world history, and is an excellent instructor. He's also a successful entrepreneur. That he would risk so much shows how much he cares about USPSA as and organization and a sport.
Any healthy nonprofit organization should welcome criticism. Nothing he's said has been lacking evidence. The BoD is just pissed that he keeps calling them out on their malfeasance and croneyism.
Clusterfrack
08-01-2022, 10:09 AM
If I could like this more than once. All of it.
And it’s not just that he criticizes it, it’s HOW he criticizes it.
You can’t keep calling people fucking idiots for decades and expect them to be kind to you, no matter what your resume is.
It also goes back to “belling the cat.” It’s all fine and good to be outraged at incompetence or what have you in the board. But by and large these are well meaning people who really have given a lot of their time and energy to trying to make their clubs healthy and strong. I know that’s the case with our AD who is an exceptionally good guy.
The types of people who would be awesomer, aren’t going to donate their time to do the job.
I thought so as well, but not any more. I think the BoD is packed with selfish Fudds who want USPSA to be their private and exclusive club where they get to call the shots no matter how unfairly. (Club as in Elks, Rotary, etc., not governing body of a national sport.)
I agree, and it makes me respect Ben even more. He has worked hard to be one of the best pistol shooters in world history, and is an excellent instructor. He's also a successful entrepreneur. That he would risk so much shows how much he cares about USPSA as and organization and a sport.
I respect you a lot, you know this.
But I have a slightly different take.
I’m going to say “I don’t think he realized he risked so much because he thought he was the 900 pound gorilla.”
Now that the reality is sinking in, he’s understandably scared because just now he’s realizing what he actually risked.
It’s not that he is critical. That’s okay. It’s that he is personally insulting, demeaning and rude which makes people feel badly while being critical about things.
There’s a difference.
rob_s
08-01-2022, 10:11 AM
That he would risk so much shows how much he cares about USPSA as and organization and a sport.
does it? I have a different takeaway...
Clusterfrack
08-01-2022, 10:13 AM
I respect you a lot, you know this.
But I have a slightly different take.
I’m going to say “I don’t think he realized he risked so much because he thought he was the 900 pound gorilla.”
Now that the reality is sinking in, he’s understandably scared because just now he’s realizing what he actually risked.
It’s not that he is critical. That’s okay. It’s that he is personally insulting, demeaning and rude which makes people feel badly while being critical about things.
There’s a difference.
Valid points. I definitely wouldn't have used the approach he's taken.
I thought so as well, but not any more. I think the BoD is packed with selfish Fudds who want USPSA to be their private and exclusive club where they get to call the shots no matter how unfairly. (Club as in Elks, Rotary, etc., not governing body of a national sport.)
I dunno. I don’t know the other BOD guys but I know our AD.
Of course he doesn’t want douches and loudmouths around. Who does?
It’s a national sport… but so is IDPA, right? You think if Stoeger was that critical of Bill and Joyce they’d say “please and thank you?”
F1 was an international sport but Bernie Ecclestone was notoriously protective of the brand and intolerant of criticism.
It’s still a corporation.
Eric_L
08-01-2022, 10:19 AM
I agree, and it makes me respect Ben even more. He has worked hard to be one of the best pistol shooters in world history, and is an excellent instructor. He's also a successful entrepreneur. That he would risk so much shows how much he cares about USPSA as and organization and a sport.
Any healthy nonprofit organization should welcome criticism. Nothing he's said has been lacking evidence. The BoD is just pissed that he keeps calling them out on their malfeasance and croneyism.
I agree with you.
We are all the hero in our own narrative. The board probably believes they are doing well. BUT, you always have to keep in mind that your critic(s) might be right.
Valid points. I definitely wouldn't have used the approach he's taken.
I personally think that if he wrote a suspension appeal letter that said:
I care deeply about the sport.
I apologize for devolving into insulting and personal attacks and will try and do better.
I still have criticisms and will continue to voice them, but be more professional and have more tact when doing so.
I would welcome ongoing dialog as to how I can personally volunteer my time to help work with the board to make the sport healthy and successful.
They would reinstate him. It’s not the criticism, it’s the manner in which he did so and in basically instigating the minions to attack, he’s the Trumpian ringleader of the people who took it too far in their eyes.
feudist
08-01-2022, 10:59 AM
I personally think that if he wrote a suspension appeal letter that said:
I care deeply about the sport.
I apologize for devolving into insulting and personal attacks and will try and do better.
I still have criticisms and will continue to voice them, but be more professional and have more tact when doing so.
I would welcome ongoing dialog as to how I can personally volunteer my time to help work with the board to make the sport healthy and successful.
They would reinstate him. It’s not the criticism, it’s the manner in which he did so and in basically instigating the minions to attack, he’s the Trumpian ringleader of the people who took it too far in their eyes.
As a frequent pointless head-butter against an entrenched bureaucracy I'd say this is 100%.
Those with authority demand that the individual acknowledge their authority. Dissension in the ranks is not brooked because it doesn't have to be.
If he publicly bends the knee they'll graciously let him continue in the sport.
This time.
45dotACP
08-01-2022, 11:12 AM
I personally think that if he wrote a suspension appeal letter that said:
I care deeply about the sport.
I apologize for devolving into insulting and personal attacks and will try and do better.
I still have criticisms and will continue to voice them, but be more professional and have more tact when doing so.
I would welcome ongoing dialog as to how I can personally volunteer my time to help work with the board to make the sport healthy and successful.
They would reinstate him. It’s not the criticism, it’s the manner in which he did so and in basically instigating the minions to attack, he’s the Trumpian ringleader of the people who took it too far in their eyes.I wonder how many of these guys voted for Trump with the whole "fuck your feelings" vibe? Sure seems like a lot of sensitivity from a group of guys that fancy themselves "alpha males".
Perhaps you are ascribing too much professional detachment to the USPSA BOD? Certainly you underestimate how many of them have "Nemo me impune lacessit" on a refrigerator magnet.
If they could have brought up a slander or libel lawsuit they would have, except for the fact that Ben is not wrong in his criticism and the very last thing they'd want is opposing counsel being granted discovery for the rest of the non leaked documents out there.
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45dotACP
I don’t know the other BOD guys, but our AD is not a chest thumper and does care about other people’s feelings.
He also doesn’t appreciate loudmouths.
If you apply “sportsmanship” standards to behavior, the personal insults that Stoeger has lobbed about would get him suspended in a lot of other organizations.
Clusterfrack can you imagine if a PGA Tour Pro repeatedly called the staff fucking idiots at press conferences and social media? I can’t imagine they wouldn’t face sanctions. Same thing with WTA.
Many “national sports” require a certain standard of decorum from their athletes. It’s not the criticism that’s the issue, it’s the lack of tact that is a suspension magnet.
Clusterfrack
08-01-2022, 11:46 AM
45dotACP
I don’t know the other BOD guys, but our AD is not a chest thumper and does care about other people’s feelings.
He also doesn’t appreciate loudmouths.
If you apply “sportsmanship” standards to behavior, the personal insults that Stoeger has lobbed about would get him suspended in a lot of other organizations.
Clusterfrack can you imagine if a PGA Tour Pro repeatedly called the staff fucking idiots at press conferences and social media? I can’t imagine they wouldn’t face sanctions. Same thing with WTA.
Many “national sports” require a certain standard of decorum from their athletes. It’s not the criticism that’s the issue, it’s the lack of tact that is a suspension magnet.
Again, valid and good points. Ben did make himself vulnerable by behaving in a less-than-mature manner. No argument there. That doesn't make him wrong.
Again, valid and good points. Ben did make himself vulnerable by behaving in a less-than-mature manner. No argument there. That doesn't make him wrong.
I guess it depends on what your definition of “wrong” is.
His criticisms are valid, but the manner in which they are / were voiced weren’t constructive and were seemingly designed to inflict the maximum amount of discord and malcontent.
So while the criticism is valid, the behavior can still be wrong for what he was trying to accomplish.
In listening to “Red Circle” towards the end when they had an incompetent CO (forgive me if my terms aren’t correct) and he asked one of the higher ups to complain up the chain… that guy (who complained on his behalf) got demoted and reassigned.
Because it’s career suicide in the military (per him) to do that.
You can feel justified in criticism of incompetence.
But having a mission of discrediting and embarrassing the leadership?
How can that not end badly for Ben?
So again, it’s okay to be critical. But wrong to purposely try and destabilize an organization without trying to be part of the solution. IMO.
Clusterfrack
08-01-2022, 11:57 AM
I guess it depends on what your definition of “wrong” is.
His criticisms are valid, but the manner in which they are / were voiced weren’t constructive and were seemingly designed to inflict the maximum amount of discord and malcontent.
So while the criticism is valid, the behavior can still be wrong for what he was trying to accomplish.
In listening to “Red Circle” towards the end when they had an incompetent CO (forgive me if my terms aren’t correct) and he asked one of the higher ups to complain up the chain… that guy got demoted and reassigned.
Because it’s career suicide in the military (per him) to do that.
You can feel justified in criticism of incompetence.
But having a mission of discrediting and embarrassing the leadership?
How can that not end badly for Ben?
So again, it’s okay to be critical. But wrong to purposely try and destabilize an organization without trying to be part of the solution. IMO.
I've observed Ben trying to be part of the solution. It was Foley who escalated it first. I think we've reached the point where fairly extreme measures are justified to mobilize the membership to vote these guys off the BoD. Only time will tell if the tactics were sound.
Eyesquared
08-01-2022, 12:27 PM
45dotACP
I don’t know the other BOD guys, but our AD is not a chest thumper and does care about other people’s feelings.
He also doesn’t appreciate loudmouths.
If you apply “sportsmanship” standards to behavior, the personal insults that Stoeger has lobbed about would get him suspended in a lot of other organizations.
Clusterfrack can you imagine if a PGA Tour Pro repeatedly called the staff fucking idiots at press conferences and social media? I can’t imagine they wouldn’t face sanctions. Same thing with WTA.
Many “national sports” require a certain standard of decorum from their athletes. It’s not the criticism that’s the issue, it’s the lack of tact that is a suspension magnet.
The "my AD is good" argument doesn't necessarily mean the whole board is good nor does it even mean that 1 AD can stop the tide when the rest of the board wishes to do something dumb. Not sure who exactly you are referring to but I liked that Chad Stanton, my AD, voted in dissent against certain rule changes that didn't make sense to me. With that being said, as I understand it the suspension decisions happened in executive council and the whole board chose to vote unanimously so this is not one of those cases.
The argument about decorum would hold more water if the behavior of board members and employees had actually met a standard of decorum/professionalism in terms of personal behavior or in the way they ran the org. I realize there is a lot of middle ground between the current state of USPSA and golf where you get fined for spitting on the grass, here but it's disingenuous to act like Stoeger and Insights are the only guys acting unprofessional when the board was also extremely reluctant to take any action re: Mike Foley in the past. The pattern I am seeing is that if you're in the in-group you clearly get away with a lot more than if you aren't. It is what it is but I don't think it's a good thing.
As to Stoeger pleading his case I doubt it would go anywhere. From the start it's obvious that having some kind of hearing on the suspension is just rubberstamping it because all the information you get to prepare is that you've done some "Activity bringing discredit to the organization". How are you going to make an actual argument besides begging if you aren't told specifically what you've done?
The argument about decorum would hold more water if the behavior of board members and employees had actually met a standard of decorum/professionalism in terms of personal behavior or in the way they ran the org. I realize there is a lot of middle ground between the current state of USPSA and golf where you get fined for spitting on the grass, here but it's disingenuous to act like Stoeger and Insights are the only guys acting unprofessional when the board was also extremely reluctant to take any action re: Mike Foley in the past. The pattern I am seeing is that if you're in the in-group you clearly get away with a lot more than if you aren't. It is what it is but I don't think it's a good thing.
Oh I agree that there’s a double standard.
I don’t know any group or organization that doesn’t allow “in-group” more leeway.
If you’re liked, you get away with more.
If you’re unliked, you get shit rolling downhill.
I don’t think that part of human nature is going to be changed with a vote.
Zincwarrior
08-01-2022, 12:37 PM
I just tried. Interesting outcome. Didn't have a problem first time around when I voted for Lin. Random error or something else?
It appears there is a problem with your eligibility.
.
.
If you need technical assistance with the voting process, please contact
Help@election-america.com or call (866) 384-9978.
https://qa.election-america.com/USPSA/images/election-europelogo.gif
Strange, I received the same thing.
rob_s
08-01-2022, 12:37 PM
perhaps I'm mis-remembering, but didn't Ben help get Foley elected to begin with? I seem to recall Foley being the candidate of choice on Ben's podcast, and Foley coming on and participating in the show?
I admit to not following the drama day-to-day, but I guess that all went to shit at some point?
Eyesquared
08-01-2022, 12:38 PM
Oh I agree that there’s a double standard.
I don’t know any group or organization that doesn’t allow “in-group” more leeway.
If you’re liked, you get away with more.
If you’re unliked, you get shit rolling downhill.
I don’t think that part of human nature is going to be changed with a vote.
I agree but there's a question of degree. In extreme cases it's ugly to everyone. In mild cases nobody cares. Hard to argue from first principles exactly where the line is so the only way forward is voting and seeing how the #s turn out.
Eyesquared
08-01-2022, 12:38 PM
perhaps I'm mis-remembering, but didn't Ben help get Foley elected to begin with? I seem to recall Foley being the candidate of choice on Ben's podcast, and Foley coming on and participating in the show?
I admit to not following the drama day-to-day, but I guess that all went to shit at some point?
Yes, that's correct.
nwhpfan
08-01-2022, 12:46 PM
Again, valid and good points. Ben did make himself vulnerable by behaving in a less-than-mature manner. No argument there. That doesn't make him wrong.
+1
I don't think it brings discredit by pointing out the discredit.
I also think Ben, as smart as he is, should have learned by now how to call someone an asshole and idiot without actually using those words.
And finally, on a personal note, I will renew my USPSA membership when Clusterfrack runs for USPSA Office. There are few people as qualified a he.
And finally, on a personal note, I will renew my USPSA membership when Clusterfrack runs for USPSA Office. There are few people as qualified a he.
I think he’s way too smart to put himself in that shit show role. Haha.
I would totally vote for him as Prez.
Of USPSA or of the USA… I seriously doubt he would want either position.
Clusterfrack
08-01-2022, 12:57 PM
+1
I don't think it brings discredit by pointing out the discredit.
I also think Ben, as smart as he is, should have learned by now how to call someone an asshole and idiot without actually using those words.
And finally, on a personal note, I will renew my USPSA membership when Clusterfrack runs for USPSA Office. There are few people as qualified a he.
LOL! Thanks that means a lot. But back at you dude... Who could be more qualified than you? Both of us are too smart to take that crap on.
45dotACP
08-01-2022, 01:07 PM
45dotACP
I don’t know the other BOD guys, but our AD is not a chest thumper and does care about other people’s feelings.
He also doesn’t appreciate loudmouths.
If you apply “sportsmanship” standards to behavior, the personal insults that Stoeger has lobbed about would get him suspended in a lot of other organizations.
Clusterfrack can you imagine if a PGA Tour Pro repeatedly called the staff fucking idiots at press conferences and social media? I can’t imagine they wouldn’t face sanctions. Same thing with WTA.
Many “national sports” require a certain standard of decorum from their athletes. It’s not the criticism that’s the issue, it’s the lack of tact that is a suspension magnet.Standards of decorum and sportsmanship tend to frown upon cheating in professional sports leagues yet it seems a lack of follow up on accusations of cheating is also pertinent to this whole shit show.
Then again pro sports leagues do seem to be awfully lax about sanctions for domestic violence accusations in many professional sports IIRC so maybe USPSA is on to something there when the domestic violence accusations leveled against a board member seem to get absolutely zero attention. (/sarc)
Also, JCN I respectfully disagree with the notion that if you're not a part of the solution then you're somehow a part of the problem or should just keep your mouth shut.
I can gripe and moan all I want about UFC fighters not being fairly treated without working for the boxing commission can I not?
If there was an impartial source of journalism about shooting sports I bet they'd be eating this story up.
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Also, JCN I respectfully disagree with the notion that if you're not a part of the solution then you're somehow a part of the problem or should just keep your mouth shut.
Just to clarify, I’m not advocating keeping mouths shut or not criticizing.
Look at my mock Stoeger appeal letter. I included that he would / should continue to criticize…
I’m not saying keep the mouth shut or don’t criticize.
I’m saying “you all fucking suck and should leave the sport, idiot board” is not helpful lol.
I’m not calling for board to be terminated. I also wasn’t on the “Foley needs to go!” train.
I would not be opposed to mandatory board leadership training courses and external HR consultation.
Again going back to “Red Circle” there were well meaning instructors who couldn’t lead or teach effectively. One of the things they revamped the modern curriculum to include was instructor training for everyone.
Help the board lead better with better tools rather than “hope” the next set of untrained leaders will do a better job.
There’s a role for training and education here and my criticism of the Foley firing was that it didn’t solve the problem (which we are seeing now). Similarly, replacing this board (IMO) also won’t solve the problem without specific training for new BOD.
Saying “you fucking suck and need to go” belittles the commitment and sacrifices a lot of the AD type people have given for years.
Offering to help them get better training at their current position would be a more respectful and durable solution.
45dotACP
08-01-2022, 01:59 PM
Saying “you fucking suck and need to go” belittles the commitment and sacrifices a lot of the AD type people have given for years.
Offering to help them get better training at their current position would be a more respectful and durable solution.This I agree with.
The two sides of the argument seem to be either "Ben's an asshole but he's right." Or "Ben's right, but he's an asshole."
Neither seem to help the fact that there don't seem to be particularly robust mechanisms of accountability or organizational standards for the people running one of the most popular sport shooting organizations in the country.
Adjudication of unprofessional conduct, cheating allegations, misappropriation of funds or just flat out stupid ideas (like holding a race gun nationals competition in a ban state) needs to be something that's done with transparency and professionalism. Not something you do with your shooting buddies
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Rocky Racoon
08-01-2022, 04:37 PM
F1 was an international sport but Bernie Ecclestone was notoriously protective of the brand and intolerant of criticism.
As you continue to defend USPSA (and knowing you I’m sure you will keep going and going), you might want to rethink using Bernie as an example. He was recently charged with tax fraud, to go along with all the other, um, questionable things he’s done and said over the years.
Rocky Racoon
08-01-2022, 04:45 PM
perhaps I'm mis-remembering, but didn't Ben help get Foley elected to begin with? I seem to recall Foley being the candidate of choice on Ben's podcast, and Foley coming on and participating in the show?
I admit to not following the drama day-to-day, but I guess that all went to shit at some point?
I think you’re right. And it went to shit when Foley kept stepping on his crank.
But not sure how it’s relevant. Where are you going with this, counselor? To me that would show he’s not bought off by friendship. He sees messed up stuff, he calls it out regardless of whether the messed up person and he were “buddies” or appeared to be.
You don’t like Ben. We get it.
Rocky Racoon
08-01-2022, 04:50 PM
Saying “you fucking suck and need to go” belittles the commitment and sacrifices a lot of the AD type people have given for years.
Offering to help them get better training at their current position would be a more respectful and durable solution.
In what world would have the USPSA director of events in question have accepted an offer from Ben (huh?) to get training on not being unethical (the ammo thing) and basic common sense (holding Nats in a state where competitors would have to break the law to attend, and then sign an affidavit saying they weren’t breaking the law)?
rob_s
08-01-2022, 05:13 PM
You don’t like Ben. We get it.
And you’re swinging from his nut hairs, we get it. :rolleyes:
I “like” Ben fine. Never met the guy. Listened to his old podcast for quite a while, and would like to take a class from him one day.
I can separate that from the drama.
And it doesn’t change the fact that running his mouth, the way that he did, for as long as he did, was bound to catch up with him. And for what?
As you continue to defend USPSA (and knowing you I’m sure you will keep going and going), you might want to rethink using Bernie as an example. He was recently charged with tax fraud, to go along with all the other, um, questionable things he’s done and said over the years.
Lol, you think I’m defending USPSA.
I’m saying that before throwing the baby out with the bath water, might want to make sure there is a replacement baby.
Foley was terrible! Replace him!
Sherwyn is terrible! Replace him!
Yee-Min is terrible! Replace him!
See where I’m going with this?
I think Bernie is a megalomaniac. Did you think I was holding that up as a model of behavior?
It was an example of the kinds of personalities that gravitate to power and replacing them isn’t necessarily going to make it better.
In what world would have the USPSA director of events in question have accepted an offer from Ben (huh?) to get training on not being unethical (the ammo thing) and basic common sense (holding Nats in a state where competitors would have to break the law to attend, and then sign an affidavit saying they weren’t breaking the law)?
Your reading comprehension is off.
I’m not recommending Ben give training.
I’m not condoning USPSA behavior but my solution would be to train rather than replace because I don’t know that the replacement would be better.
I said the same thing about Foley. I’ll say the same about Sherwyn. And in a year I’ll say the same thing about Yee-Min.
I think you’re right. And it went to shit when Foley kept stepping on his crank.
But not sure how it’s relevant. Where are you going with this, counselor? To me that would show he’s not bought off by friendship. He sees messed up stuff, he calls it out regardless of whether the messed up person and he were “buddies” or appeared to be.
You don’t like Ben. We get it.
I’m going to take a different view of it.
You could imagine that instead of being equal opportunity caller-outer, he felt totally betrayed by an ex-buddy and then had a specifically sharp axe to grind.
“Hell hath no fury like a (wo)man scorned.”
Eyesquared
08-01-2022, 07:08 PM
I don't think there was anything on the podcast to suggest Foley and Stoeger were ever close
Strange, I received the same thing.
I had an email exchange with the company that runs election this morning. They stated that they have reached out to USPSA and USPSA fixed the problem on their end.
It's sad that USPSA threads always devolve like this. People so concerned with talking passed each other and being right, they forget it's still just a pissing match. And the same opinion phrased differently over and over in response to anyone who doesnt see it there way. Complete with condescending attitudes. In a lot of ways, it mirrors the problems with the culture of USPSA.
Clusterfrack
08-01-2022, 08:40 PM
It's sad that USPSA threads always devolve like this. People so concerned with talking passed each other and being right, they forget it's still just a pissing match. And the same opinion phrased differently over and over in response to anyone who doesnt see it there way. Complete with condescending attitudes. In a lot of ways, it mirrors the problems with the culture of USPSA.
While I agree that at P-F we should maintain a higher standard, I haven't found the USPSA culture to be condescending or problematic. Especially in comparison to 3-Gun or IDPA. What is problematic is cheating, croneyism, and abuse of power.
While I agree that at P-F we should maintain a higher standard, I haven't found the USPSA culture to be condescending or problematic. Especially in comparison to 3-Gun or IDPA. What is problematic is cheating, croneyism, and abuse of power.
I cant speak to 3 gun or IDPA... yet.
There are a lot of good folks at matches. I won't argue that. I think there are a lot of "king of the sand box" personas too. Perhaps thats just my perspective because I AIWB, and am not a member of any specific club. Many dont want to play by USPSA rulebook because they know better. The big org culture and surrounding social media is often juvenile. Not that theres anything wrong with that... :cool:
In a lot of ways, it mirrors the problems with the culture of USPSA.
Which is why I’m skeptical that it will ever change in a male dominated hobby that has roots in aggression and fighting.
Which also goes along with “cheating, cronyism and abuse of power.”
You get a bunch of alpha people who all have narcissistic streaks and how do you convince them that they’re not more special than the next guy?
I’m not saying it’s right nor something we should accept without accountability and scrutiny.
But I’m skeptical just electing new people without specific training and expressly written rules of decorum will change anything.
Things are called slippery slopes for a reason.
It’s also the reason at work we now have a $20 meal and nominal gift written limit to prevent outside vendors from influencing.
20 years ago, what we were allowed to accept was much different. Ethical standards have evolved and sometimes there needs to be a written policy rather than something vague like “common sense.”
David S.
08-01-2022, 09:53 PM
And finally, on a personal note, I will renew my USPSA membership when Clusterfrack runs for USPSA Office. There are few people as qualified a he.
I think he’s way too smart to put himself in that shit show role. Haha.
I dunno. He’s nutty enough to help moderate this circus. ;) ;)
Zincwarrior
08-02-2022, 07:15 AM
I had an email exchange with the company that runs election this morning. They stated that they have reached out to USPSA and USPSA fixed the problem on their end.
Yes it worked for me now. Thanks!
Eyesquared
08-04-2022, 08:03 AM
Looks like another member has been suspended - I haven't seen him do anything remotely close to inappropriate. Just a guy with professional background in accounting who was critical of the org (including their financial and tax accounting practices). This one seems ridiculous to me to the point where I have to wonder if they will go into the suspension hearing and choose not to ban him simply to create the illusion of fairness. Or they are totally nuts.
Clusterfrack
08-04-2022, 11:04 AM
Looks like another member has been suspended - I haven't seen him do anything remotely close to inappropriate. Just a guy with professional background in accounting who was critical of the org (including their financial and tax accounting practices). This one seems ridiculous to me to the point where I have to wonder if they will go into the suspension hearing and choose not to ban him simply to create the illusion of fairness. Or they are totally nuts.
I saw that! What the actual fuck? It makes me want to criticize the BoD on social media just to see how far they will go with this Inquisition style nonsense.
Eyesquared
08-04-2022, 11:16 AM
I will say that many organizations should be more open to feedback from accountants. HOA in my area lost over a million dollars to an embezzlement because the auditor they hired failed to do a basic audit procedure (sending bank confirmations). And wanting to hide from the accountants rarely means that people are doing things right.
Mike Pipes
08-04-2022, 11:16 AM
Please help an old crumudgen , where are yall seeing this info............thanks cya mike
Please help an old crumudgen , where are yall seeing this info............thanks cya mike
Instagram. Ben's IG, an instagram called practical shooting insights, and different users who are reporting they've been banned. Ben and one other posted the actual letter they received.
The fact the accountant wouldnt be able to go to matches with his kids who shoot USPSA really burns my ass.
Clusterfrack
08-04-2022, 11:47 AM
Please help an old crumudgen , where are yall seeing this info............thanks cya mike
https://www.instagram.com/practical.shooting.insights/
https://medium.com/@practical.shooting.insights
Spartan1980
08-04-2022, 08:56 PM
So do Ben and this accountant pursue litigation? From the looks of things it could get really ugly for USPSA from a publicity viewpoint if taken to trial, but would anyone hire counsel for such a case?
Zincwarrior
08-05-2022, 09:05 AM
So do Ben and this accountant pursue litigation? From the looks of things it could get really ugly for USPSA from a publicity viewpoint if taken to trial, but would anyone hire counsel for such a case?
What would be the grounds for the suit? This is not a criticism but a question.
Spartan1980
08-05-2022, 10:30 AM
What would be the grounds for the suit? This is not a criticism but a question.
For Stoeger: Libel? Wrongful termination? (deprivation of income).
For the accountant it would probably be a bridge too far. FWIW, I kind of had the same question but it wouldn't be too hard to see at least some financial injury to Stoeger.
Clusterfrack
08-05-2022, 11:17 AM
Excellent summary of the current situation:
One Guy's Take on USPSA Current Events
I’m Mad At USPSA Leadership, And I Think You Should Be, Too
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vS3BtJlEhQd9PDXSvMLfmOn3L-lbq4vQmPkNCIXz1Onwv-p7CEU6NrEdIolzALmtrB0DDkX6u9FZwfS/pub?fbclid=IwAR0UtjCncuIq0rEqlctpx2fAo7CuXfMB2QhPn SFY3xU2p3q-B1zEr2hRPe8
Bart Carter
08-05-2022, 10:52 PM
Just got a post card asking me to vote in the special presidential runoff election. Any insight on whom to vote for?
Clusterfrack
08-05-2022, 10:59 PM
Just got a post card asking me to vote in the special presidential runoff election. Any insight on whom to vote for?
I voted for Yee-Min Lin.
https://sites.google.com/vbm.com/yeemin2022/home
Zincwarrior
08-05-2022, 11:32 PM
Excellent summary of the current situation:
One Guy's Take on USPSA Current Events
I’m Mad At USPSA Leadership, And I Think You Should Be, Too
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vS3BtJlEhQd9PDXSvMLfmOn3L-lbq4vQmPkNCIXz1Onwv-p7CEU6NrEdIolzALmtrB0DDkX6u9FZwfS/pub?fbclid=IwAR0UtjCncuIq0rEqlctpx2fAo7CuXfMB2QhPn SFY3xU2p3q-B1zEr2hRPe8
Did this guy get banned yet?
Clusterfrack
08-06-2022, 10:15 AM
Did this guy get banned yet?
Just a matter of time
92530
RevolverRob
08-06-2022, 06:43 PM
Stoeger is currently banned from Pistol-Forum, I’m still renewing my membership here.
Stoeger was banned by TLG himself. And I'm just going to put this out here for you to chew on...If P-F today ran with the same level of moderation that TLG enforced you would also be banned.
I say that as someone who reads most of your posts and appreciates them and your work ethic. But your generally willingness to argue with people with a lot more experience than you would find you on the outside looking in.
So, I'm not sure I'd put water in that pot and hope it would hold.
Anyways, continue on folks. I myself haven't been a USPSA member since the last time Stoeger was banned for reasons that seemed suspect.
Stoeger was banned by TLG himself. And I'm just going to put this out here for you to chew on...If P-F today ran with the same level of moderation that TLG enforced you would also be banned.
I say that as someone who reads most of your posts and appreciates them and your work ethic. But your generally willingness to argue with people with a lot more experience than you would find you on the outside looking in.
So, I'm not sure I'd put water in that pot and hope it would hold.
Anyways, continue on folks. I myself haven't been a USPSA member since the last time Stoeger was banned for reasons that seemed suspect.
Oh I fully expect that I would have been banned from here.
I also think that if Stoeger were posting here today he might not be banned.
I am willing to argue with people with a lot more experience. It’s always been that way for me during training and my career. Sometimes I’ve found that I’m wrong. And like BBI says, I usually when shown I’m an idiot or wrong I’ll say “oh, I’m an idiot and wrong.”
Sometimes I’m not wrong and sometimes it’s a difference of context or perspective.
There were a number of advancements in military training that came from decidedly not military sports.
My delivery can be abrasive. I can’t accept “because I said so and look at my training resume” as an explanation.
Think of every curriculum that has had to be revamped from the “that’s the way we have always done it.”
Ken Hackathorn might want me to STFU if I argued with him about why HE needs a red dot, lol.
But despite his experience, on a technical shooting matter I would want to have a discussion not just listen to a lecture.
As an aside, I really respect BBI and Clusterfrack for their ability to articulate their thoughts and experiences in a way that helps me understand WHY and how. We have had good discussions that hopefully we have both benefited from.
I think another part that riles people is I want to know WHY and not just WHAT.
Because without the WHY, you can’t necessarily tell if it couldn’t be better or improved on.
Sure, something can work okay.
But could it be better? What are the things keeping it from being better? Is that a limit for everyone? Is it a limit for me personally in time or money? How does it apply to me and my use?
Jared
08-06-2022, 07:26 PM
Stoeger was banned by TLG himself. And I'm just going to put this out here for you to chew on...If P-F today ran with the same level of moderation that TLG enforced you would also be banned.
I say that as someone who reads most of your posts and appreciates them and your work ethic. But your generally willingness to argue with people with a lot more experience than you would find you on the outside looking in.
So, I'm not sure I'd put water in that pot and hope it would hold.
Anyways, continue on folks. I myself haven't been a USPSA member since the last time Stoeger was banned for reasons that seemed suspect.
I was a member here when Stoeger got banned and remember the whole thing well. Things were different then, that’s for sure.
From the perspective of a former USPSA member that eventually found other things to do with his time:
One thing that really keeps me from regaining an interest in USPSA is that there’s a small, but incredibly vocal, group of USPSA shooters that turn the sport into a never ending fountain of drama. It’s always something. This guys overclassified (who really gives a shit), that guy said some of this stuff we love to do isn’t really applicable to self defense and we must call him a shitty shooter to prove that the 10,000 hours of dry fire we did last year are important, or the organization is incompetent, and whatever else.
For a group of people that tend to say you have to check your feelings to shoot the sport, this overly obnoxious group sure seems to wear a lot of feelings on their sleeve.
As for Stoeger. I met the dude briefly and he seemed like a decent enough guy. Took time to chat with a nobody like me at a level 2 match when he really had better stuff to do. I’ve got a lot out of his materials and refer people to them a lot. I can’t help but wonder why he’s surprised that he got punished, except for the fact he got to say whatever he wanted for a decade or so with minimal consequences. He’s definitely enjoyed poking the bear a lot over the years, but the problem with that is eventually the bear bites. I guess in time everyone will figure out who needs who more (Stoeger or USPSA).
Eyesquared
08-07-2022, 10:42 AM
I think it's incredibly easy to avoid USPSA drama if you don't listen to podcasts and just shoot matches. Rarely if ever have I heard any such complaining like xxxx is a sandbagger, yyyy is a grandbagger, the board are BOCs, etc. at an actual match. As I've had less and less free time to use social media and listen to podcasts my exposure to that stuff is at a level I can tolerate and I could reduce it lower if I didn't have instagram.
I think it is always interesting since USPSA is a sport with a bunch of somewhat macho (at least in their own minds) guys, there is always a war of narratives where people try to portray everyone else's complaints as teenage girl drama and their own complaints as legitimate manly man issues. At the end of the day if "drama" is not okay then basically any complaint is unacceptable because of this. In my mind there are 2 ways to minimize drama. 1 is just to shut everyone up, no complaining or you get banned (apparently where we are going). 2 is actually to address complaints and give people a reason to think you're actually working to improve the org.
LittleLebowski
08-07-2022, 01:52 PM
Stoeger was banned by TLG himself. And I'm just going to put this out here for you to chew on...If P-F today ran with the same level of moderation that TLG enforced you would also be banned.
I say that as someone who reads most of your posts and appreciates them and your work ethic. But your generally willingness to argue with people with a lot more experience than you would find you on the outside looking in.
So, I'm not sure I'd put water in that pot and hope it would hold.
Anyways, continue on folks. I myself haven't been a USPSA member since the last time Stoeger was banned for reasons that seemed suspect.
To be fair, Stoeger personally went after TLG. JCN is abrasive and whatnot, but he’s not trolling just to troll; unlike Stoeger who was absolutely doing that.
Jared
08-07-2022, 03:10 PM
I think it's incredibly easy to avoid USPSA drama if you don't listen to podcasts and just shoot matches. Rarely if ever have I heard any such complaining like xxxx is a sandbagger, yyyy is a grandbagger, the board are BOCs, etc. at an actual match. As I've had less and less free time to use social media and listen to podcasts my exposure to that stuff is at a level I can tolerate and I could reduce it lower if I didn't have instagram.
I think it is always interesting since USPSA is a sport with a bunch of somewhat macho (at least in their own minds) guys, there is always a war of narratives where people try to portray everyone else's complaints as teenage girl drama and their own complaints as legitimate manly man issues. At the end of the day if "drama" is not okay then basically any complaint is unacceptable because of this. In my mind there are 2 ways to minimize drama. 1 is just to shut everyone up, no complaining or you get banned (apparently where we are going). 2 is actually to address complaints and give people a reason to think you're actually working to improve the org.
Best local match I ever shot got ruined because of 2 guys that wanted to argue that every stage was illegal in some way or another, so staying off the ‘net ain’t 100% foolproof.
Longer version: there was a 3-gun club that decided to try their hand at offering USPSA on some Saturdays. They put together one hell of a 6 stage club match. Most of their stages were at least level 2 match quality. Keep in mind this was the first one they ever put on.
Well, a couple of dudes had their rule books in their back pockets and spent the day bellyaching that this wasn’t right or that or whatever. Now, I’ll grant that if they wanted to run sanctioned matches then all the stuff needed to be “legal.” Where I looked at the pair as being boorish was I thought they could have addressed the stuff after the match in a more professional way instead of tying up the works for 30-45 minutes per stage while one or two targets got moved to satisfy 2 complainers while the rest of us just wanted to shoot.
That club never ran a USPSA match again. I ran into one of the guys at a later date and asked about it. “Too many Kentucky lawyers” was the answer he gave me. So yeah, the howler monkeys ain’t just on the internet.
Eyesquared
08-07-2022, 03:19 PM
Sorry to hear that, that sucks. What I will say is that "problem children" at matches make as much trouble as people allow them to. If someone wants to complain about stage design in a way that holds up everyone else, that should be quickly resolved with a simple "We're going to keep shooting, let's talk after the match." If they don't want to do that then a simple "Please feel free to leave," should suffice.
I get that setting up a match is a good deal of work and it does really suck when someone chooses to ignore all of that and only focus on criticisms. I don't mean to be callous but if the people running any match let 2-3 idiots turn them off from that then it was only a matter of time because if it wasn't stage design it would be something else.
LittleLebowski
08-07-2022, 03:40 PM
While we are on topic, if Stoeger can just chill on trolling this forum and its members, you know, not be a dick; I could see him being allowed to post here again. That being said, I don’t care if he’s not interested, either.
While we are on topic, if Stoeger can just chill on trolling this forum and its members, you know, not be a dick; I could see him being allowed to post here again. That being said, I don’t care if he’s not interested, either.
Realistically, shooters of his caliber don't post on the internet unless they are being paid to do it.
Jared
08-07-2022, 04:45 PM
Sorry to hear that, that sucks. What I will say is that "problem children" at matches make as much trouble as people allow them to. If someone wants to complain about stage design in a way that holds up everyone else, that should be quickly resolved with a simple "We're going to keep shooting, let's talk after the match." If they don't want to do that then a simple "Please feel free to leave," should suffice.
I get that setting up a match is a good deal of work and it does really suck when someone chooses to ignore all of that and only focus on criticisms. I don't mean to be callous but if the people running any match let 2-3 idiots turn them off from that then it was only a matter of time because if it wasn't stage design it would be something else.
I see where you’re coming from questioning as far as it was probably only a matter of time. On the other hand, same club ran monthly 3-gun matches for years after that day.
Yes, they could’ve done a better job of reining in the pair. I really wanted to tell them to just shut the hell up and shoot, but not my club not my place (I was raised to be a gracious guest). Anyway, woulda coulda shoulda, and it was several years ago. I just remember it well because it was such an awesome match.
I had another club I went to one time only because one of the club members had a god complex and I don’t play that game either. The 2 places I shot 90% of my matches at were mostly great, no complaints with them at all. Though the match director at one of them did get roasted over on Enos forums years ago over a stage he set up that some folks thought was unfair. Competitive equality and all that. The absolute hilarious thing about that was I was on the squad with the guy that had the highest hit factor on that stage all shooters across all divisions. He shot the stage straight up, without any of the “shortcuts” some of the other dudes tried. Hell, I shot it straight up myself and was in the top quarter across all divisions. Most of the guys that were doing the bitching (and tried to find a creative way to game it) were in the bottom half, but why let the facts get in the way of a good cry.
I still think there’s something about USPSA that has a tendency to generate unnecessary drama, especially online.
Ben and I used to be internet buddies. He's a really smart dude and he generally trolls with good intentions, if that makes sense. He gave me a ton of free advice and gave me his books for free when I was younger which was a really kind move. I'll always be thankful to him for helping me become a better shooter.
I no longer follow all this USPSA bullshit closely though. Shooting is just a hobby to me and I'll show up and shoot some steel for fun, IDGAF about what is happening at HQ within reason as long as my local club is good to go (it seems to be full of great people). Ben seems to be doxxing the board and highlighting their sexual behavior at HQ, and honestly, I just couldn't care less what consenting adults do. I'm guessing this doxxing and people leaking information to him is what got him in trouble this time. I have to say, though, it seems ridiculous for them to ban *maybe* the best USPSA shooter in the country. This just seems to immature for an organization that is as large as it is. It is making everyone look like petty clowns.
TL/DR: both sides probably should just grow the fuck up.
LittleLebowski
08-07-2022, 10:46 PM
Realistically, shooters of his caliber don't post on the internet unless they are being paid to do it.
That’s fine.
That’s fine.
Of course if he did come on, we might all get banned by USPSA, on the theory of guilt by association!
LittleLebowski
08-08-2022, 08:42 AM
Of course if he did come on, we might all get banned by USPSA, on the theory of guilt by association!
https://c.tenor.com/yyOVwiXB_lUAAAAC/the-dark-knight-rises-bane.gif
LittleLebowski
08-08-2022, 09:02 AM
I e told this story dozens of times…
I started with an idpa club sometime around 2003. We loved each other. We showed up, worked our sasses off in the s Florida sun, shot, and then went to get beers.
then then club started a forum on the website.
Turned out, that guy is a democrat, and that guy is an atheist, and that guy is mad about something he would have forgotten about if he’d hadn’t had a venue to complain, and this other guy likes to get drunk and post at 3 am… and some disgruntled little botch starts reporting us to hq. Culminated in a guy literally walking up and poking me in the chest because he didn’t like being called a “newb” on the forum. Shit continued downhill, mostly due to the forum, after that. Yet for the 75% of shooters that showed up and had no idea of the drama they just kept right on having fun.
I just want to quote the post where rob_s accurately diagnosed why our country is so divided.
Zincwarrior
08-08-2022, 10:14 AM
Just a matter of time
92530
I asked because a recent Stoeger podcast was actually on youtube and he read from the memo you linked. I couldn't tell if that person had been banned.
I think it's incredibly easy to avoid USPSA drama if you don't listen to podcasts and just shoot matches. Rarely if ever have I heard any such complaining like xxxx is a sandbagger, yyyy is a grandbagger, the board are BOCs, etc. at an actual match. As I've had less and less free time to use social media and listen to podcasts my exposure to that stuff is at a level I can tolerate and I could reduce it lower if I didn't have instagram.
Yes. I don't do podcasts, or Facebook. My youtube subscriptions avoid people whining about shooting sports or...whining. Life is much better.
willie
08-08-2022, 11:01 AM
Do highly competitive people also have super ego's? And then there's this old thing called emotional maturity(or immaturity). Let's not omit manners or lack of them. People really do have to make an effort to get along. It ain't easy. Here we do pretty good. I think we need a mod in charge of public relations. I nominate my good friend Hambo for this task.
Clusterfrack
08-08-2022, 11:08 AM
It’s not about egos. That’s all a distraction. The issue remains Board members who condone cheating, abuse power, mismanage funds, conceal documents, and now possibly harass female colleagues. Stoeger’s ego and dickish behavior are trivial by comparison. And he’s not employed by USPSA, so it’s a fallacy to think of it as “well they’re both at fault”.
Eyesquared
08-08-2022, 02:00 PM
Looks like we are now relitigating the firing of Kim Williams, the former USPSA Executive Director (back when we had one). At the time there was some controversy about potential embezzlement - practical.shooting.insights posted a memorandum from the USPSA's auditors who had investigated the credit card charges, and it seems to me like at the time there was a lot of poor accounting practices that made it hard to determine if some of the charges were legitimate business charges or not. Kim Williams did apparently use the card for personal expenses but also was able to provide proof that she reimbursed USPSA for those which in my experience is generally not an issue.
Apparently she later sued USPSA - don't have a lot of detail on that
Clusterfrack
08-08-2022, 02:05 PM
Looks like we are now relitigating the firing of Kim Williams, the former USPSA Executive Director (back when we had one). At the time there was some controversy about potential embezzlement - practical.shooting.insights posted a memorandum from the USPSA's auditors who had investigated the credit card charges, and it seems to me like at the time there was a lot of poor accounting practices that made it hard to determine if some of the charges were legitimate business charges or not. Kim Williams did apparently use the card for personal expenses but also was able to provide proof that she reimbursed USPSA for those which in my experience is generally not an issue.
Incompetence and dishonesty are a terrible combination for board members. I've seen it on other boards as well.
If anyone on the USPSA BoD is reading this... if you care about USPSA, please resign. Nothing short of full turnover is going to put us on the long road back to a healthy organization.
See this IG post (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg_uYX3umQ9/)...
flyrodr
08-08-2022, 05:12 PM
Incompetence and dishonesty are a terrible combination for board members. I've seen it on other boards as well.
If anyone on the USPSA BoD is reading this... if you care about USPSA, please resign. Nothing short of full turnover is going to put us on the long road back to a healthy organization.
See this IG post (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg_uYX3umQ9/)...
So, are we talking about USPSA or the NRA? Not a USPSA member, but by most accounts, one might think the leadership of both have been performing similarly "well" lately.
Incompetence and dishonesty are a terrible combination for board members. I've seen it on other boards as well.
If anyone on the USPSA BoD is reading this... if you care about USPSA, please resign. Nothing short of full turnover is going to put us on the long road back to a healthy organization.
See this IG post (https://www.instagram.com/p/Cg_uYX3umQ9/)...
Wait how did this not get more attention when it happened? Where did this convo take place?
Clusterfrack
08-08-2022, 08:37 PM
Wait how did this not get more attention when it happened? Where did this convo take place?
No freaking idea. I'm guessing its part of a lawsuit?
This latest round of shenanigans re:Kim Williams is disappointing. I’m not an NRA member for much of the same reasons I’ve cited in this past about the leadership. Leaning towards voting with my feet on USPSA as well. Not that anyone at HQ cares, but I think for my sake I’ll write my Area Director and express my concerns.
The org can’t stay quiet with the new allegations and information coming out about Jake Martens selling lots of guns and ammo. The accusations are pretty serious and could result in some atf violations if true and seriously affect the org. So if he’s innocent and purchased everything with his own money they need to come out explicitly and say it.
RevolverRob
08-15-2022, 11:32 AM
The org can’t stay quiet with the new allegations and information coming out about Jake Martens selling lots of guns and ammo. The accusations are pretty serious and could result in some atf violations if true and seriously affect the org. So if he’s innocent and purchased everything with his own money they need to come out explicitly and say it.
Sure doesn't look like he is innocent from the compounding evidence. The duplicity on Martens' part is starting to look pretty clear. But what about the complicity of the board? At best it's looking like they are complicit as part of this process. That alone should prompt the whole board to resign.
You run a shooting organization and cannot, nor should not, flaunt the law. Whether you agree with them or not, professionalism dictates that you don't flaunt the law. Of course, we've seen multiple times that the board has no concern for that - or - professionalism.
OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
08-15-2022, 01:06 PM
Sure doesn't look like he is innocent from the compounding evidence. The duplicity on Martens' part is starting to look pretty clear. But what about the complicity of the board? At best it's looking like they are complicit as part of this process. That alone should prompt the whole board to resign.
You run a shooting organization and cannot, nor should not, flaunt the law. Whether you agree with them or not, professionalism dictates that you don't flaunt the law. Of course, we've seen multiple times that the board has no concern for that - or - professionalism.
RB or anyone else knowledgable w/ this currently can you summarize easily or post a link to Marten's allegations etc?
RevolverRob
08-15-2022, 01:12 PM
RB or anyone else knowledgable w/ this currently can you summarize easily or post a link to Marten's allegations etc?
Practical Shooting Insights has this story on his Instagram Page - shows screen shots of adverts and walks through things. Formal allegations have not yet been made (to my knowledge). You may have to be logged into Instagram to view these.
http://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE4MzA3MjQ2ODkxMDQzMzg2?story_media_i d=2902882127814149594&igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
--
There is also an issue with members requesting documents for the new Managing Director and being told to pound sand - which might be illegal in Delaware (where USPSA is incorporated) -
http://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE4MDI1MTkxNDY5Mzk0NDk0?story_media_i d=2904757408002711067&igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Zincwarrior
08-15-2022, 02:07 PM
Anything not on Instagram?
RevolverRob
08-15-2022, 02:30 PM
Anything not on Instagram?
Slightly older stuff - https://medium.com/@practical.shooting.insights/uspsas-501c3-status-could-be-in-question-be08ecbdddb6
I have DM'ed PSI to see if he will do a Medium (or other non-Instagram) summary of these events.
Zincwarrior
08-15-2022, 02:37 PM
Slightly older stuff - https://medium.com/@practical.shooting.insights/uspsas-501c3-status-could-be-in-question-be08ecbdddb6
I have DM'ed PSI to see if he will do a Medium (or other non-Instagram) summary of these events.
Thanks!
Rocky Racoon
08-15-2022, 02:58 PM
Anything not on Instagram?
Instagram is free. If you want to follow along, use your spam email account to create an account.
If there is a "summary" available in text format alone:
PSI has extensive documentation of DME personally selling cover story guns, promo guns, promo optics following factory tours, promo ammo, etc. on an Indiana gun forum.
The total amount of goods sold was at least $18,000 at the last count.
Following PSI's first post on Instagram, DME edited all the forum posts to cover his tracks. PSI or someone else tipped off the forum moderators, who have since reversed all the edits done by DME's account.
bofe954
08-15-2022, 04:42 PM
If there is a "summary" available in text format alone:
PSI has extensive documentation of DME personally selling cover story guns, promo guns, promo optics following factory tours, promo ammo, etc. on an Indiana gun forum.
The total amount of goods sold was at least $18,000 at the last count.
Following PSI's first post on Instagram, DME edited all the forum posts to cover his tracks. PSI or someone else tipped off the forum moderators, who have since reversed all the edits done by DME's account.
Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
45dotACP
08-15-2022, 04:51 PM
Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.I would guess if an effort has been made to cover something up...then that something is either illegal, something that could get you fired, or something your wife will leave you for.
Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
I wonder if not reporting the income on tax forms would be the issue.
Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
Well, as dumb it is, it’s not legal to sell large volumes of guns and ammo without a federal license. Especially where the guns sold were not acquired for the personal use of the seller in the first instance.
Also, the bigger problem is—you’d assume—promo stuff that’s not put back into T&E circulation would end up on a prize table or raffle for the benefit of the org.
Not sold on a local gun forum under some guy’s personal account.
bofe954
08-15-2022, 07:32 PM
Well, as dumb it is, it’s not legal to sell large volumes of guns and ammo without a federal license. Especially where the guns sold were not acquired for the personal use of the seller in the first instance.
Also, the bigger problem is—you’d assume—promo stuff that’s not put back into T&E circulation would end up on a prize table or raffle for the benefit of the org.
Not sold on a local gun forum under some guy’s personal account.
I guess I'd have to see the list of stuff and have someone explain to me why the ATF cared, that's kind of why I asked. I know about straw purchases, and I know you aren't supposed to buy firearms expressly to resell without a license.
I know a guy can buy a pistol, shoot it for a youtube video, blog post, magazine article, pistolforum post, whatever and sell it if they don't want to keep it. I imagine if you were were some kind of influencer a company might give you a firearm to review. I don't know why you couldn't sell it, if it had been transferred to you.
I could be wrong, I'm not a lawyer or an ATF agent. That's why I asked.
As far as the prize tables go, you have a point. Would be a PITA to get a firearm on a prize table outside Indiana. Not sure how much used stuff manufacturers really want on prize tables, either. Prize tables are marketing like anything else, I wouldn't want someone to beat the piss out of an optic I made, then it ends up on a prize table and the winner thinks my product is junk. Again, I don't know the details of what he had.
It just reminds me a little of a plumber recycling copper from pipes he had to replace on a job, or a cop that gets a free lunch or something every day. Ethical? Maybe not, do I give a shit? Not really. Should they all get exposed on the internet? I guess that's America now and they should know better.
18K isn't nothing, and I'm not really trying to defend Martens, he actually irritated me in the past about a club I briefly ran, and no longer run, in small part due to him and USPSA, but mostly just because I'm busy.
Some of this thread, and some of this stuff just seems a little blown out of proportion and perhaps out of context. It may be because tiny parts of it are being posted here from instagram.
RevolverRob
08-16-2022, 12:07 PM
If there is a "summary" available in text format alone:
PSI has extensive documentation of DME personally selling cover story guns, promo guns, promo optics following factory tours, promo ammo, etc. on an Indiana gun forum.
The total amount of goods sold was at least $18,000 at the last count.
Following PSI's first post on Instagram, DME edited all the forum posts to cover his tracks. PSI or someone else tipped off the forum moderators, who have since reversed all the edits done by DME's account.
This is the current summary of the DME situation.
FYI PSI has said he will release a Medium post on this soon.
Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
Often what manufacturers do is offer T&E guns to the reviewer at or near cost. As I understand it, at least some of the firearms in this situation were purchased in this fashion and subsequently resold shortly thereafter.
I guess I'd have to see the list of stuff and have someone explain to me why the ATF cared, that's kind of why I asked. I know about straw purchases, and I know you aren't supposed to buy firearms expressly to resell without a license.
I know a guy can buy a pistol, shoot it for a youtube video, blog post, magazine article, pistolforum post, whatever and sell it if they don't want to keep it. I imagine if you were were some kind of influencer a company might give you a firearm to review. I don't know why you couldn't sell it, if it had been transferred to you.
I could be wrong, I'm not a lawyer or an ATF agent. That's why I asked.
The ATF will look at the pattern and process of purchasing and reselling firearms. If there is a pattern where firearms are purchased at a low(er) than market cost and subsequently resold for a profit, in a short turn around time, then the ATF could determine the individual in question was acting as an unlicensed dealer.
In this particular case, PSI has documented that DME sold guns that were reviewed/used for the USPSA Magazine shortly after the magazine feature on that firearm was released and this was done multiple times. If those weapons were purchased by DME at cost and subsequently resold for profit, in particular after using the USPSA Magazine to promote the weapon in question - then that may well fit the definition of unlicensed dealer. IANAL - but that stinks like shit to me and the extensive number of guns sold seems to further indicate that this was an ongoing behavior.
There is a separate alleged behavior where DME may have given his USPSA business card to people at matches and told them to contact him for his 'inventory'. That is expressly called at as behavior by the ATF that qualifies as an unlicensed dealer in their pamphlet, "Do I need a Firearms License?" - https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
The (re)sale of loaded ammunition, optics, accessories, etc. is not directly regulated by the ATF (well in as much as the GCA dictates that individuals under 18/21 cannot buy certain types of ammunition, but an FFL is not needed to sell loaded ammunition). These sales could be regulated by state of Indiana and certainly would need to be reported to the IRS. The acquisition of promo items and resale of them is a shady practice. It is unclear if DME used his position of influence at USPSA to acquire these items for the express purpose of resale or merely sold them after the fact. Determining that motive is potentially for a jury to decide if it comes to that.
$18,000+ is a substantial number for most folks. That many of those dollars were generated through the sale of guns regulated by Federal law makes this potentially a very serious legal issue.
The complicity of the Board in these dealings will have to be further investigated.
jetfire
08-16-2022, 12:23 PM
Is that bad? I always figured that kind of stuff got sold unless the manufacturer made them give it back.
There's a number of issues at play here. First is the unreported income to the IRS; $18,000 is a lot of money and would substantially increase someone's tax burden. I got a letter from the IRS about back taxes because I forgot to declare 4k in freelance income one year, so best believe if they knew about 18,000 bucks they'd want to go after it.
On the subject of selling guns/optics that were provided for T&E (testing and evaluation) to USPSA/DME, there are two issues we need to look at. The first, as discussed, is whether or not he's "engaged in the business" of selling firearms without a license. As other people have pointed out, ATF would look at the pattern of acquisitions and sales and make a determination as to whether or not he was "engaged in the business." It's one of those things where there's a lot of wiggle room, because people sell guns a lot, and even large volumes of guns, without being engaged in the business.
The second is the ethical/industry issue. If you're getting guns and writer's pricing/for free and then immediately flipping them, the industry at large regards that as "not cool." It's one thing to get a gun for a review, buy it at a discount, and then like 2 years later go "oh man I haven't shot that in forever, I'll toss it on Gunbroker" and it's another thing entirely to intentionally flip guns that you got at a deep discount.
Rocky Racoon
08-16-2022, 03:49 PM
The second is the ethical/industry issue. If you're getting guns and writer's pricing/for free and then immediately flipping them, the industry at large regards that as "not cool." It's one thing to get a gun for a review, buy it at a discount, and then like 2 years later go "oh man I haven't shot that in forever, I'll toss it on Gunbroker" and it's another thing entirely to intentionally flip guns that you got at a deep discount.
I'll take it a little further. If you are Jetfire and a professional gun writer and are paid to review guns for Pistols & Cartridges, what Jetfire does with review pistols afterward is up to the magazine (with possibly the spoken or unspoken understanding of the gun maker/dealer/etc so as to not jeopardize that relationship.) The readership doesn't get a say.
Martens, however, is a paid employee of a non-profit, writing reviews and fluff pieces as part of his paid duties. He should not be making a profit off endeavors done on the organization's time in the course of his duties. Any income generated should go back to the non-profit.
The "ATF/unlicensed dealer" may be an issue, but that's more like a "gotcha" to me (though possibly a very serious 'gotcha'.) I'm not qualified to say if he's broken any laws, but it's clear to me he's not acting in the non-profits best interest and is violating ethical norms.
Now if the board knew he was making a profit off of his USPSA duties and the board didn't care...well I won't be surprised. There's a history of fiduciary irresponsibility and not acting in the members' interest.
EDIT - basically what JRV said. I missed that he had already said essentially the same thing.
RevolverRob
08-16-2022, 07:36 PM
Practical Shooting Insights has updated his Medium Blog with the latest on DME:
https://medium.com/@practical.shooting.insights/uspsa-employee-sales-51b12973a23a
David S.
08-16-2022, 07:36 PM
So that's it?
Sum dood is breaking a chicken shit ATF law and making some unreported side money, and the "community" is feigning outrage and narcing him out?
Yawn.
Also. . . . typical. :rolleyes:
RevolverRob
08-16-2022, 07:49 PM
So that's it?
Sum dood is breaking a chicken shit ATF law and making some unreported side money, and the "community" is feigning outrage and narcing him out?
Yawn.
Also. . . . typical. :rolleyes:
Just as a point of semantics - it's not an ATF law, it's Federal law and the ATF is the (potential) enforcing body.
However, if you have an employee and pay him to do work for you. And he subsequently uses that position to break federal laws and evade taxes - that's not a "minor" issue. That is potentially opening up the organization to criminal and civil liability.
Also as a shooting organization that is centered around promoting the lawful and responsible use of firearms there is no, zero, zilcho, room for the org to have any part or parcel in actions that break federal firearms laws. The Org, Board, and individual members can believe the laws are wrong, they can lobby, petition, and litigate in efforts to change them. But they are not above the law and cannot act with impunity towards it.
As an aside - USPSA needs to hire an outside "NPO Business Firm" to organize and manage their day-to-day operations. The board should serve as an executive steering committee on a volunteer basis. No formal member of USPSA should be in a paid or compensated position. This is how professional scientific (and other) societies work and it helps keep the money away from the egos. It also helps keep things legally kosher and generally makes them run smoother. If USPSA lacks the financial assets needed to hire a Business Firm then there is a much great problem at hand.
jetfire
08-16-2022, 08:06 PM
So that's it?
Sum dood is breaking a chicken shit ATF law and making some unreported side money, and the "community" is feigning outrage and narcing him out?
Yawn.
Also. . . . typical. :rolleyes:
No it’s that he’s intentionally getting guns at a discount using his status as an employee of a shooting sport then flipping those guns for personal profit which is regarded by the entire industry as “a dick move”
Stoeger got terminated, presumably on a technicality of not filing the appeal of his suspension according to the bylaws. The only thing I am mildly curious about is if he and his fan base have enough motivation and resources to start an alternative sport.
The only thing I am mildly curious about is if he and his fan base have enough motivation and resources to start an alternative sport.
How many here who are pissed with the USPSA leadership would join?
Seems the best reaction would be vote with your feet
Stoeger got terminated, presumably on a technicality of not filing the appeal of his suspension according to the bylaws.
Doesn't that seem like a rookie move, considering all that had transpired?
Clusterfrack
09-23-2022, 08:40 PM
Doesn't that seem like a rookie move, considering all that had transpired?
I’d have sent it by certified mail.
Doesn’t surprise me that they uspsa board “lost” it.
How many here who are pissed with the USPSA leadership would join?
Two dozen?
Content and availability would matter more than emotional overtones.
Two dozen?
Content and availability would matter more than emotional overtones.
That was my poorly worded thought. I can't see it happening but it's not like I have my finger on the USPSA pulse.
If BS has basically lost a chunk of his income you'd like to think he had a plan for reentering the sport but it's starting to look like both sides go away with nothing. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Spartan1980
09-24-2022, 12:10 AM
I'm missing Michael Voigt right now. I don't recall any of this sort of nonsense back then, but I only got in towards the end of his tenure.
RevolverRob
09-24-2022, 12:20 AM
Stoeger made his letter public and provided copies of it to the direct emails of the BOD. They can lie and say it wasn't received, but in a court case he may have a good justification to subpoena their emails to prove they did receive it.
Personally, USPSA has lost me - and lost the plot - when they didn't choose to fire Jake Martens a month ago. I mean Jesus...
CCT125US
09-24-2022, 08:57 AM
but in a court case he may have a good justification to subpoena their emails to prove they did receive it.
Maybe that's his stage plan. Imagine what would be uncovered. He didn't get where he's at by being bad at strategy.
bofe954
09-24-2022, 10:17 AM
Stoeger got terminated, presumably on a technicality of not filing the appeal of his suspension according to the bylaws. The only thing I am mildly curious about is if he and his fan base have enough motivation and resources to start an alternative sport.
Where I am from the fan base doesn't have enough motivation or resources to paste or help set up an existing match. They do bitch on the internet a lot though.
Where I am from the fan base doesn't have enough motivation or resources to paste or help set up an existing match. They do bitch on the internet a lot though.
That… has been the striking difference with USPSA and 2-gun or IDPA matches I went to. Maybe those clubs were special, but we got some drama queens in spades son. In spades.
LittleLebowski
09-24-2022, 05:32 PM
Stoeger got terminated, presumably on a technicality of not filing the appeal of his suspension according to the bylaws. The only thing I am mildly curious about is if he and his fan base have enough motivation and resources to start an alternative sport.
That’s pretty chickenshit.
spinmove_
09-24-2022, 07:24 PM
That’s pretty chickenshit.
That’s literally the state of USPSA right now. Unless something drastic happens with changes in the org, then I’m letting my membership run out and jumping over to IDPA. USPSA/IPSC may be superior in my eyes, but I’ll be damned if I’ll continue to fund their bullshit while also blatantly state that the voice of the membership means dick. Besides, maybe a change of pace will be good for me.
That’s pretty chickenshit.
Yep. I’ve been pretty disgusted w the Board. After 29 years I decided to let my membership expire.
RevolverRob
09-25-2022, 01:36 AM
That’s pretty chickenshit.
We can see a step farther.
They granted Practical Shooting Insights a hearing. A hearing - he did not formally request - and they notified him via email.
So, if BOD wants to hang their hat on Stoeger not "following the rules for requesting a hearing"...that is a pretty weaksauce argument. Since they don't follow their own rules...
Since part of Stoeger's reputation as an instructor is built on him being a National Champion and a high-level competition shooter - USPSA banning him without process or justification could allow him to bring some type of defamation suit. IANAL - so I don't know how that could be justified. But a USPSA ban is also a ban for Stoeger from IPSC competition on a global scale. Because USPSA is the US IPSC representative organization.
So, there is a fairly compelling argument that banning Ben Stoeger from the sport, for unclear reasons, causes him personal damage.
94821
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cho8h4hOwCt/?igshid=MDE2OWE1N2Q=
This was the letter. He just doubled down on the position and posture that got him suspended in the first place.
What did he think was going to happen?
Regardless of if they deserved it, he is amplifying “discredit” to the organization.
If this was military or any other corporation, how would this go down if he was a member?
I just don’t understand what he thought the outcome of this letter would be, even if they granted him an interview.
I AM NOT SAYING USPSA IS JUSTIFIED OR CORRECT.
I AM SAYING THAT THIS OUTCOME WAS INEVITABLE GIVEN THE PERSONALITIES OF EVERYONE INVOLVED.
LittleLebowski
09-25-2022, 07:29 AM
94821
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cho8h4hOwCt/?igshid=MDE2OWE1N2Q=
This was the letter. He just doubled down on the position and posture that got him suspended in the first place.
What did he think was going to happen?
Regardless of if they deserved it, he is amplifying “discredit” to the organization.
If this was military or any other corporation, how would this go down if he was a member?
I just don’t understand what he thought the outcome of this letter would be, even if they granted him an interview.
I AM NOT SAYING USPSA IS JUSTIFIED OR CORRECT.
I AM SAYING THAT THIS OUTCOME WAS INEVITABLE GIVEN THE PERSONALITIES OF EVERYONE INVOLVED.
You’re making sense, what did he think was going to happen? Perhaps he has a plan he hasn’t revealed yet? I doubt it, but maybe…
Jim Watson
09-25-2022, 08:50 AM
The only thing I am mildly curious about is if he and his fan base have enough motivation and resources to start an alternative sport.
Well, Bill Wilson and some cronies did.
Wouldn't it be neat to have three sanctioning organizations?
I don't think he had any plans to get reinstated by making peace with current BOD. The way I understand his actions is that he attempted to bring about the change in the organization by continuously exposing BOD's and adjacent personalities' incompetence and corruption. Too bad that he didn't understand that all-out war on public media was not the way to achieve any of those goals. Having interacted with him personally, I always held him as a quite intelligent dude. At this point I don't know if his smarts betrayed him on how to go about this or he was simply shooting for a nuclear exit like this one.
Well, Bill Wilson and some cronies did.
Wouldn't it be neat to have three sanctioning organizations?
I just looked into IDPA equipment rules again and said to hell with it. I wouldn't mind trying IPSC under IPSC rules but USPSA is IPSC here.
Clusterfrack
09-25-2022, 10:21 AM
I just looked into IDPA equipment rules again and said to hell with it. I wouldn't mind trying IPSC under IPSC rules but USPSA is IPSC here.[/FONT]
It’s not the equipment rules that keep me away from IDPA, it’s time-plus scoring.
Hit Factor scoring is my most basic requirement for practical pistol shooting competitions.
Bucky
09-26-2022, 07:59 AM
It’s not the equipment rules that keep me away from IDPA, it’s time-plus scoring.
Hit Factor scoring is my most basic requirement for practical pistol shooting competitions.
For me it's not the time plus scoring, per say, it's the extreme penalty for points down that IDPA is applying. It was far fetched when it was 1/2 second per point. 1 second per point is ludicrous, and completely negates any "practicality" to the sport. I'd be down with a .20 second per point rule, which essentially makes everything a 5 hit factor if my math-prior-to-second-cup-coffee computes correctly.
I remember when Joyce Wilson was justifying the move to 1 second down, her reasoning was we have to be accountable each shot fired. My response was why isn't there a penalty for completely missing the target, so long as the shot is made up? That miss is far more dangerous than hitting an intended target in the "down 3" region.
There was a 3-gun match director that proposed creating a pistol sport using 3-gun timing. Targets are either neutralized or not. I've seen a few variation of this, (one A hit, or any two hits to neutralize, another one A hit or two hits with one of the two being C or higher, etc...), but that intrigues me.
YMMV.
Mike Pipes
09-26-2022, 08:43 AM
For me it's not the time plus scoring, per say, it's the extreme penalty for points down that IDPA is applying. It was far fetched when it was 1/2 second per point. 1 second per point is ludicrous, and completely negates any "practicality" to the sport. I'd be down with a .20 second per point rule, which essentially makes everything a 5 hit factor if my math-prior-to-second-cup-coffee computes correctly.
I remember when Joyce Wilson was justifying the move to 1 second down, her reasoning was we have to be accountable each shot fired. My response was why isn't there a penalty for completely missing the target, so long as the shot is made up? That miss is far more dangerous than hitting an intended target in the "down 3" region.
There was a 3-gun match director that proposed creating a pistol sport using 3-gun timing. Targets are either neutralized or not. I've seen a few variation of this, (one A hit, or any two hits to neutralize, another one A hit or two hits with one of the two being C or higher, etc...), but that intrigues me.
YMMV.
That was the Paladin scoring system promoted by rick miller back when I had hair..........CYA Mike
Jim Watson
09-26-2022, 09:04 AM
There are a couple of wildcat matches in my theatre of operations that require two A or B hits to neutralize.
Darned tough versus "a fast C is better than a slow A" logic.
When I joined IDPA in 1997, they were at .5 sec per point down. I read that they started at .3 sec/point but I never saw it.
The only special penalty I know of for errant shots is that if you hit a Non Threat, you are not eligible for Low Points Down recognition.
Penalizing made up misses would require reliable tracking of shots fired vs hits. Something you might do in a tough training environment but difficult in a sporting event.
Glenn E. Meyer
09-26-2022, 09:20 AM
Frankly I don't care. I like the trigger time in both. There's a target, I get to it at my speed and shoot it. I want to hit it well that would be reasonable in SD if life ever came to that. Watching folks do the UPSPA track meet , I can't. When IDPA went to fault line instead of coverage because of gamer outrage over subjective calls - Yawn to me. If I ever fight, I will use cover, concealment, hiding behind my rounds - whatever works from my experiences at the NTI and various FOF training. My guns are close to carry - my concession to RDS is that it can be done on a carry gun without much problem and my old eyes now.
This may be old man yelling at a cloud as I certainly can't win at my speed. I can come in reasonably well just looking at hits, although rusty with my 1911 recently. At the last match, a retired officer shot at a reasonable speed, IMHO, and moved between targets at a reasonable, deliberate pace - and got all A's.
It was then told that faster 'C's were better, but the SO said he was joshing a bit. Seeing fast Mikes - not a good thing.
Anyway, practicality between the two based on some algebra - can't get excited about it. I don't do IDPA match as it is an hour and a half drive now. Although, there is ICORE there also and I might try.
If I get a chance and the weather clears, I will shoot steel with a fiber optic Buckmark. I regard that as my practical practice if my hands go!
Organization politics - since monkeys chattered at each other for dominance, 3 million years ago - what else is new. I pays my $17 bucks ( $3 off for members at our club) and shoot. Better deal than the indoor range.
feudist
09-26-2022, 10:13 AM
For me it's not the time plus scoring, per say, it's the extreme penalty for points down that IDPA is applying. It was far fetched when it was 1/2 second per point. 1 second per point is ludicrous, and completely negates any "practicality" to the sport. I'd be down with a .20 second per point rule, which essentially makes everything a 5 hit factor if my math-prior-to-second-cup-coffee computes correctly.
I remember when Joyce Wilson was justifying the move to 1 second down, her reasoning was we have to be accountable each shot fired. My response was why isn't there a penalty for completely missing the target, so long as the shot is made up? That miss is far more dangerous than hitting an intended target in the "down 3" region.
There was a 3-gun match director that proposed creating a pistol sport using 3-gun timing. Targets are either neutralized or not. I've seen a few variation of this, (one A hit, or any two hits to neutralize, another one A hit or two hits with one of the two being C or higher, etc...), but that intrigues me.
YMMV.
I don't follow IDPA closely but that truly made no sense. When I first heard of the rule, I assumed it was what you're advocating: an extreme miss penalty which seems like a fine idea.
Clusterfrack
09-26-2022, 10:14 AM
Having fixed time penalty for points down makes all stages have effectively fixed hit factors. That's boring. HF scoring requires optimizing accuracy and speed under a wide range of challenges. Fixed time also doesn't have shifting importance of all the non-shooting stuff (reloads, movement, etc).
Compare the strategy required for a 8 round short course (see pic) with two activators (HF > 7 for a competitive run) to a big field course with lots of movement and HF < 3 where dropping more than few Cs means a low score. For a competitive run on the short course, both steel must be shot first, and a miss on steel could be catastrophic. Shooting the far partial in between the steel was a hero move, and no one who tried it succeeded. Time plus scoring simply can't create this range of challenges.
Edit: HF scoring makes the size of the 'target' change depending on the situation. Sometimes only As are acceptable, and sometimes Cs are ok too.
2 hits to neutralize is why I don't shoot 3-gun. (Well, that and not caring about reloading shotguns quickly).
94860
For me it's not the time plus scoring, per say, it's the extreme penalty for points down that IDPA is applying. It was far fetched when it was 1/2 second per point. 1 second per point is ludicrous, and completely negates any "practicality" to the sport. I'd be down with a .20 second per point rule, which essentially makes everything a 5 hit factor if my math-prior-to-second-cup-coffee computes correctly.
I remember when Joyce Wilson was justifying the move to 1 second down, her reasoning was we have to be accountable each shot fired. My response was why isn't there a penalty for completely missing the target, so long as the shot is made up? That miss is far more dangerous than hitting an intended target in the "down 3" region.
There was a 3-gun match director that proposed creating a pistol sport using 3-gun timing. Targets are either neutralized or not. I've seen a few variation of this, (one A hit, or any two hits to neutralize, another one A hit or two hits with one of the two being C or higher, etc...), but that intrigues me.
45dotACP
09-26-2022, 12:07 PM
It’s not the equipment rules that keep me away from IDPA, it’s time-plus scoring.
Hit Factor scoring is my most basic requirement for practical pistol shooting competitions.It's a real shame too, because the lower round count stages you see in IDPA give it potential to be a really interesting challenge if you use HF scoring.
It aggravates me to no end to go to a USPSA match and just have arrays of 4 targets stacked everywhere and for every stage but the classifier to be a charmless 32 round nightmare.
Plus IDPA is one of the last real places to shoot a stock service revolver and not feel like you're holding the whole squad up or thay you're glacially slow.
Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk
Jim Watson
09-26-2022, 01:41 PM
Maybe ol Ben will read the boards and come up with a match that everybody likes, now he is booted out of USPSA.
I don't do IDPA match as it is an hour and a half drive now.
Wow. I am 1:20 from my CLOSEST match, the Wednesday night USPSA. Saturday IDPA is 1:40 to 2:20 travel time. This Saturday's outlaw shoot will be about 1:50. I have to go, I won the drawing for a free entry last time.
Glenn E. Meyer
09-26-2022, 01:58 PM
I need to stay closer to home for some caretaking responsibilities. Only like to be at most an half hour away. Such that I don't go to Givens anymore. Sigh.
Moylan
09-26-2022, 02:05 PM
Wow. I am 1:20 from my CLOSEST match, the Wednesday night USPSA. Saturday IDPA is 1:40 to 2:20 travel time. This Saturday's outlaw shoot will be about 1:50. I have to go, I won the drawing for a free entry last time.
I'm in the same boat. The clubs I've gotten to have been 1:15 and 1:30 and the one I can get to most often is 1:40 on Thursday evenings. But considering the traffic I have to leave myself a good 2:00 for the journey outbound. Heading home at 10:00pm I can hit the 1:40 mark. It'd be so nice to have a match within 20 minutes or so of home!
Mike Pipes
09-26-2022, 02:10 PM
I THINK WE HAVE DERAILED THIS THANG
Spartan1980
11-04-2022, 02:23 PM
I just had a chuckle. I just now got my USPSA newsletter email and The Ben Stoeger Pro Shop is a preferred vendor. Cool... :cool:
mmc45414
11-04-2022, 04:33 PM
There was a 3-gun match director that proposed creating a pistol sport using 3-gun timing. Targets are either neutralized or not. I've seen a few variation of this, (one A hit, or any two hits to neutralize, another one A hit or two hits with one of the two being C or higher, etc...), but that intrigues me.
That was the Paladin scoring system promoted by rick miller back when I had hair..........CYA Mike
And we are, including Rick, still doing this every Sunday. And he still mostly shoots one of his LWCs (backed off to 200gn, he is eighty now..), so we still power factor (9mm needs an A or three that are not). It really is (IMO) a pretty good way to score, though we are doing more and more steel these days to speed up our practice.
And I have been doing three gun and doing the one A or two anywhere scoring, and IMO that works well also. At the club I shoot at they also mix in plenty of small KDs to make sure you can hit small if you need to.
Spartan1980
11-06-2022, 07:46 PM
From the appearance of what's presented in this "tubecast" the other Ben may be next. No way am I renewing if this is even half accurate. Hope he wins his election and can make some headway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJsWWVIqoLA
From the appearance of what's presented in this "tubecast" the other Ben may be next. No way am I renewing if this is even half accurate. Hope he wins his election and can make some headway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJsWWVIqoLA
Ben B’s not into histrionics or rumors. Outside the personal crap-flinging, there is plenty of documentation out there for
- club-level classifier match cheating being met with no actual punishment
- board members taking manufacturer freebies
- board members playing Facebook attorney with the worst legal advice possible
- fiscal transparency issues
- high-level corporate leadership selling nearly $20K in T&E guns
Add in the Board neutering the president position and appointing A6’s business partner, who hasn’t shot in a decade, as the “Managing Director” with all the old presidential duties, and you have an org that’s not worth the 40 bucks.
It’s just not worth paying these peoples’ salaries knowing the vast majority of voting members get their info direct from the Board or its sanctioned mouthpieces (GFDS, Humble Marksman), so they’ll never vote beyond “the dude I know.”
Too many other options. Try to get Master in Precision Pistol, get CMP distinguished, shoot some outlaw matches or IDPA, take a couple seasons to work on target-focused shotgunning, try Max’s new league if it’s near you, try PRS/NRL… life’s too short.
Spartan1980
11-08-2022, 12:54 AM
Ben B’s not into histrionics or rumors. Outside the personal crap-flinging, there is plenty of documentation out there for
- club-level classifier match cheating being met with no actual punishment
- board members taking manufacturer freebies
- board members playing Facebook attorney with the worst legal advice possible
- fiscal transparency issues
- high-level corporate leadership selling nearly $20K in T&E guns
Add in the Board neutering the president position and appointing A6’s business partner, who hasn’t shot in a decade, as the “Managing Director” with all the old presidential duties, and you have an org that’s not worth the 40 bucks.
It’s just not worth paying these peoples’ salaries knowing the vast majority of voting members get their info direct from the Board or its sanctioned mouthpieces (GFDS, Humble Marksman), so they’ll never vote beyond “the dude I know.”
Too many other options. Try to get Master in Precision Pistol, get CMP distinguished, shoot some outlaw matches or IDPA, take a couple seasons to work on target-focused shotgunning, try Max’s new league if it’s near you, try PRS/NRL… life’s too short.
Yea my membership has been lapsed for awhile now. It went out about when covid hit. I've been thinking on renewing but I'm going to wait. I'll shoot locals and call it good. I've also jumped into GSSF and got kinda interested in that to tide me over. Sucks because I think USPSA provides a huge service to the shooting industry in general, but the BOD's running it like their own little fiefdom just kills the urge for me. I am kind of proud that my AD isn't part of the cabal though.
Around me, club level matches are still going strong with good turn out despite the primer shortage. I’m also seeing a steady influx of new shooters. Nobody seems to care about the HQ drama. Most folks just wanna shoot and play games with their guns. USPSA provides the clubs with that basic format, albeit it on the backs of the local MDs and clubs to do the heavy lifting to put the match on.
Most of the online chatter I see about USPSA seems more about people lobbying for slide mounted red dot SAO guns to be allowed in Carry Optics or have their own division. Or people losing their minds over the fact that a Canik shooting minor won Limited this year…
I have to admit tho, I am shooting NRL22 and PRS more these days. But still hitting at least 2 USPSA matches a month (instead of 4).
Ben B’s not into histrionics or rumors. Outside the personal crap-flinging, there is plenty of documentation out there for
- club-level classifier match cheating being met with no actual punishment
- board members taking manufacturer freebies
- board members playing Facebook attorney with the worst legal advice possible
- fiscal transparency issues
- high-level corporate leadership selling nearly $20K in T&E guns
Add in the Board neutering the president position and appointing A6’s business partner, who hasn’t shot in a decade, as the “Managing Director” with all the old presidential duties, and you have an org that’s not worth the 40 bucks.
It’s just not worth paying these peoples’ salaries knowing the vast majority of voting members get their info direct from the Board or its sanctioned mouthpieces (GFDS, Humble Marksman), so they’ll never vote beyond “the dude I know.”
Too many other options. Try to get Master in Precision Pistol, get CMP distinguished, shoot some outlaw matches or IDPA, take a couple seasons to work on target-focused shotgunning, try Max’s new league if it’s near you, try PRS/NRL… life’s too short.
How is Humblemarksmen a mouthpiece?
How is Humblemarksmen a mouthpiece?
He’s been doing interviews with BOD members and (back when elections were running) presidential candidates, which of course, all involved were also promoting on their socials.
Recently, he’s started affirmatively covering for them.
He deleted or hid comments on his most recent videos discussing the BOD issues, stating—in his position—that no organization is perfect and the recent bans were “deserved.”
I know for a fact he (Humble/David) hid my comment and others. David was asked what Derek (practical shooting insights) did to deserve his ban, and I responded with the list of things Derek brought to light with documentation (the same list in the comment to which you replied).
Derek and the other folks were watching that comment thread (and all know me on non-YouTube social media), and they said my comment lasted a whopping minute before being banished to the shadow realm. Sent me screenshots and everything. David was hiding or deleting any comment referencing specific issues with the BOD, because I watched other comments disappear when refreshing the video.
Baseless speculation:
My schizo-lifter-brain conspiracy theory is he wants to be first in line for a certain media job if the incumbent gets fired (or charged criminally) for selling $20K worth of T&E guns on an internet forum… but I have absolutely nothing to back that theory up besides (1) it makes sense and (2) the little birdies I see when I’m blacking out deadlifting whisper it in my ears.
Around me, club level matches are still going strong with good turn out despite the primer shortage. I’m also seeing a steady influx of new shooters. Nobody seems to care about the HQ drama. Most folks just wanna shoot and play games with their guns. USPSA provides the clubs with that basic format, albeit it on the backs of the local MDs and clubs to do the heavy lifting to put the match on.
This is where I’m at. I like the sport, I like my local clubs.
I’m kind of all out of outrage in 2022. Just want to play with guns with my buddies.
He’s been doing interviews with BOD members and (back when elections were running) presidential candidates, which of course, all involved were also promoting on their socials.
Recently, he’s started affirmatively covering for them.
He deleted or hid comments on his most recent videos discussing the BOD issues, stating—in his position—that no organization is perfect and the recent bans were “deserved.”
I know for a fact he (Humble/David) hid my comment and others. David was asked what Derek (practical shooting insights) did to deserve his ban, and I responded with the list of things Derek brought to light with documentation (the same list in the comment to which you replied).
Derek and the other folks were watching that comment thread (and all know me on non-YouTube social media), and they said my comment lasted a whopping minute before being banished to the shadow realm. Sent me screenshots and everything. David was hiding or deleting any comment referencing specific issues with the BOD, because I watched other comments disappear when refreshing the video.
Baseless speculation:
My schizo-lifter-brain conspiracy theory is he wants to be first in line for a certain media job if the incumbent gets fired (or charged criminally) for selling $20K worth of T&E guns on an internet forum… but I have absolutely nothing to back that theory up besides (1) it makes sense and (2) the little birdies I see when I’m blacking out deadlifting whisper it in my ears.
I saw the original comments. Maybe he just took them down because he doesn’t want his comment section to turn into a drama fest? He’s not uspsa or a govt entity so he can do what he wants with his comment section (that’s how I view it).
I’m of the mindset that uspsa is the best thing going in the shooting sport even if it is corrupt. I like Ben Berry approach of changing it internally.
I thought humblemarksman has been a voice of reason. He has been critical of uspsa in some of his podcasts. But I don’t think he’s alone in his views on the suspensions. Stoeger and insights deserved it. I’m personally so tired of Ben’s drama I am withdrawing from his class I was signed up for.
I say all that and still think uspsa has some pretty serious issues with its leadership. But I don’t think doxxing them and trying to destroy the BODs lives is the approach to take.
DDTSGM
11-08-2022, 10:50 PM
I’m personally so tired of Ben’s drama I am withdrawing from his class I was signed up for.
I was surprised at how smoothly and drama free the class I attended was run. I showed up a little early and if I hadn't known who he was I would have thought he was just another guy taking the class. I wouldn't hesitate to attend another course.
JMO
DMF13
11-09-2022, 12:44 AM
I’m personally so tired of Ben’s drama I am withdrawing from his class I was signed up for.
I would suggest you stay in the class. Despite the internet drama, Stoeger is an excellent instructor. I took one of his classes recently. Well worth the cost, in money, ammo, and vacation time.
Just my 2 cents.
I would suggest you stay in the class. Despite the internet drama, Stoeger is an excellent instructor. I took one of his classes recently. Well worth the cost, in money, ammo, and vacation time.
Just my 2 cents.
I will second this recommendation. I suspect that unless you bring it up (USPSA drama) he won't talk about any of it in class. I took his class several years ago and was impressed with his ability to connect and teach. He puts just as much time in developing his teaching ability/skills as he does his shooting. From my perspective he is equally as passionate about teaching others to shoot as he is improving his own shooting performance. Just my opinion, it is worth what you paid.
Bergeron
11-09-2022, 09:20 AM
If this is the Spring 2023 class in North East Texas, I’ll be there and I encourage still showing up. I’m guaranteed to be the least-skilled student, so no fears there.
I’m here for some technical skills development. Stoeger’s books were great, and I’m very eager to see an in-person lecture. USPSA matches are still the cheapest, easiest way to get in shooting and manipulations (“training”), so I’ll keep
shooting and ignore the drama.
Jim Watson
11-09-2022, 09:37 AM
I’ll keep shooting and ignore the drama.
Yup. I am one of those old guys who ought to shoot IDPA and quit bothering the Real Competitors but I have a fairly convenient weekly USPSA (TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT!) so I just shamble through into the fifth quintile.
(I do shoot IDPA and can sometimes still make it into the second quintile.)
Clusterfrack
11-09-2022, 10:10 AM
…Stoeger and insights deserved it. I’m personally so tired of Ben’s drama I am withdrawing from his class I was signed up for.
I say all that and still think uspsa has some pretty serious issues with its leadership. But I don’t think doxxing them and trying to destroy the BODs lives is the approach to take.
Wait, what? Can you support that about doxxing? I’m skeptical.
While Ben has posted some harsh memes, I haven’t seen anything like that.
The BoD and USPSA personnel have done far worse, including stalking a member and threatening many others with a frightening abuse of power.
Posting public records isn’t doxxing.
Clusterfrack
11-09-2022, 11:21 AM
Posting public records isn’t doxxing.
Which public records are we talking about? USPSA BoD meeting minutes?
I'm responding to the insinuation that Derek doxxed anyone.
He has posted board minutes, court records, and state business filings, all of which were public.
Clusterfrack
11-09-2022, 11:37 AM
I'm responding to the insinuation that Derek doxxed anyone.
He has posted board minutes, court records, and state business filings, all of which were public.
Copy. I didn't mean to imply anything else. Some BoD members have implied and actually claimed that Stoeger was responsible for the Colorado USPSA Nationals fiasco, which Ben categorically denies. I believe Ben, and it's yet another example of outrageous and unprofessional behavior on the part of USPSA.
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