PDA

View Full Version : "Running an AK like an M4"



Jay Cunningham
09-14-2012, 08:14 AM
A common piece of advice for those seeking to learn how to efficiently operate their Kalashnikov variant is:

"Don't try to run your AK like an M4!"

But what does that mean? What would operating an AK like an M4 look like?

What principles of operation between the two guns are the same? What techniques need to be different?

LittleLebowski
09-14-2012, 08:24 AM
They both need a light and a sling. Both are easier to use with a red dot sight. I would hazard a guess that it's better to adapt to the AK's design (charging handle, reloads) rather than attempt to apply the "I'll modify it to suit me" school of thought that AR owners have come to expect.

Zhurdan
09-14-2012, 08:56 AM
I think the "don't run an AK like an M4" statement is the genesis for all the "lets weld all this crap on our AK's so they work like an M4" crap that is being pushed out there right now. Sure, some may be useful, but nothing beats practice when it comes to manipulating an AK.

Safety - This one I will give a nod to the Krebs lever, even though it would technically fall under modifying the AK's normal operation. Safety is now on the opposite side of the gun compared to an M4, but it's intuitive enough to not detract too much when shooting the AK.

Trigger - Depending on how much use the kit the AK was built on saw, triggers on AK's are a stretch from AR triggers most of the time. Longer pull, drag just before release, trigger slap if you don't have certain things installed.

Sights - AK sights aren't quite as intuitive as AR sights in my opinion, but LL is absolutely correct in that an AK benefits greatly from a red dot sight.

Reloads - Probably the one area where the AR "can" be significantly faster. A 'bash' reload can be super fast, but you gotta practice a lot to get it not only right, but consistent. One other problem, is if you use soft mag pouches, the AK magazine has that wonderful little nub that likes to hang up on things.

Charging the gun - This is probably the biggest 'difference' when it comes to running gun A like gun B. Pretty much all AR stuff is in the same line. Meaning moving or manipulating the position of the gun takes less movement. Whereas the AK, depending on if you use an over the top or an under the gun motion to charge the gun, it takes movement of the gun (roll) a little to do either right. Personally, I go under the gun as my left hand is already near the bottom of the gun after inserting the magazine, roll the gun right, reach under and charge. Being there's no 'bolt hold open' on the last round, this is significantly different than the operation of an M4. You don't have the option of just dropping the bolt, you have to charge the gun.

I've had quite a love affair with the AK over the past three years. Compared to an M4 (the hot chick with daddy issues) the AK (the not quite as hot but way better in the sack chick), I'd say I like them both, but with the amount of time dedicated, gear available to me and ability to replace broken stuff... I have to give my heart to the M4.

joshs
09-14-2012, 09:00 AM
I think this has to mean something beyond the simple mechanical differences between the guns, or the statement is pointless. Obviously, it isn't possible to do many manipulations the same way because the controls are different.

The thing I see often taught differently as far as "running" the gun goes, is the safety manipulation. Most teach keeping the safety on the AR on except when the gun is actually presented to a target, but with the AK, I often see people who simply take the safety off and leave it off until they are done shooting. Personally, I use the safety on the AK the same as the AR, so I guess I'm doing it wrong because I do in fact "run an AK like an M4."

Josh Runkle
09-14-2012, 10:21 AM
The biggest difference for me is not necessarily the ergonomics, but the fact that since the weapon system lacks a bolt lock, all reloads are now malfunction clearances.

Jay Cunningham
09-14-2012, 10:22 AM
The biggest difference for me is not necessarily the ergonomics, but the fact that since the weapon system lacks a bolt lock, all reloads are now malfunction clearances.

What does that mean to you specifically?

Dropkick
09-14-2012, 11:17 AM
So, I've had roughly the same amount of time on each platform. Hopefully I can do some justice to the questions.


A common piece of advice for those seeking to learn how to efficiently operate their Kalashnikov variant is:

"Don't try to run your AK like an M4!"

I'll say it up front, that I hate cliche one liners like this. I suspect you do too, Jay.



But what does that mean? What would operating an AK like an M4 look like?

What principles of operation between the two guns are the same? What techniques need to be different?

There's the "latest rage" of running M4s (especially long handguard AR's) with the stiff support arm and rolled wrist, which is something that really wouldn't work with an AK. I suspect if you grip over the top of the AK's handguards you'd ruin your sight picture. And along with that I personally think that gloves are great idea with the AK, and "eh, whatever" with the AR. Reloads are different, with M4s I'll typically drop the mag while retrieving a fresh one. AKs it doesn't make any sense to drop the mag prior to retrieving a fresh one if you're using the "bash" technique (which is the most efficient method I've seen.) There's the safety/selector issue that's already been touched on, and I agree with taking the AK's safety off and leaving it off, more because of the fact you can't load the weapon with it on. I feel like you also have to "work" the iron sights on the AK notch more then you do with the M4 peep, you can't just say "eh, sight picture looks good enough" with an AK. Ballistics are obviously different, so there's those considerations. There's the difference of holding the mag well with the AR and holding the mag with the AK, but I'm not sure where I'm going with that one... How you run a 2pt sling could vary based on what sling loops are available. (Generally speaking, with an AR I go over the right shoulder / under the left shoulder, and with an AK I go under the right shoulder / over the left shoulder.)

Stuff that's the same... hmm... They're both 30 round (typically) magazine driven (semi-)automatic rifles designed by super powers. Umm, you pull the trigger and they go "bang." Oh!! Fundementals such as: Safety Rules, Correct (for the platform) Sight Picture and Alignment, Proper Trigger Control, Breathing. You can shoot both using the same stance. Hmm, there has to be more...

Ed L
09-14-2012, 10:39 PM
I think what peoiple mean is that the AK's layout and controls is different than the AR, so don't try to run it exactly like an AR>

An M4 is very ergonomic and allows you to do things like dropping a magazine and engaging and disengaging the safety without removing your hand from the grip. Wiithout modification to the safety, many people have trouble with doing this with an AK--engaging and disengaging tht safety using your right hand without removing your right hand from the pistol grip (assuming that you are right handed).

If the AK is on safe and I am carrying it, I prefer to keep my right thumb on the safety and my hand off the firing grip. If I need to shoot the gun I disengage the safety with my right hand and move it to the firing grip as I bring the gun on target with my left hand.

Here's a picture of some troop in Chechnya carrying it that way:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/akobsessed/AKfield1.jpg

Here's a pic of the late Paul Gomez illustrating it:

Carry positon:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/akobsessed/AKSelectorOptions2.jpg

Disnegaging safety:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/akobsessed/AKSelectorOff2.jpg

When I took an AK class from Paul in 2007 & 2008 he really did not like the above position.

Another alternative is keeping your thumb around the grip and manipulating the safety with your trigger finger or middle finger. Not everyone's hand is big enough to do this, and some AKs have stiffer safeties than others.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/akobsessed/AKSelectorOptions1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/akobsessed/AKSelectorOff1.jpg

Paul's default manipulation was to reach under the receiver and drag the selector lever down using the tips of the fingers of his offhand. This allowed him to maintain his fighting grip on the gun during all manipulations and works with any member of the Kalashnikov family.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/akobsessed/AKSelectorOptions3.jpg

And disengaging the selector:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/akobsessed/AKSelectorOff3.jpg

After this he would move his left hand to a support position, grasping the gun ont the foreend or the magazine.

I personally found this method awkward when bringing the gun on target and cramped while carrying the gun this way.

Personally, I prefer the first method--that is having my right hand on the selector, disengaging it and moving it back to the grip as my left hand brings the gun on target. I found it awkard trying to disengage the safety with my left hand while using the same hand to bring the gun onto target. Also, I found carrying

Josh Runkle
09-14-2012, 10:56 PM
What does that mean to you specifically?

I mean: the bolt does not lock back upon firing the last shot. I can never KNOW WITH CERTAINTY that the weapon is empty and needs to be reloaded...what I DO know is that I pulled the trigger and there was a click and no bang. So, I never experience an "Empty Gun" BEFORE I experience a "Type I Malfunction", and solve that.

With an M4, I can roll into a chamber check and either solve or continue on to a reload, essentially, skipping a Type I clearance and moving into a Type II clearance (Solving something that can be solved by reloading). With An AK I must go straight into clearing a Type I (Tap [or push/pull...or rock/rock], Rack, Bang) Because all I know with certainty is that the gun didn't go bang. If "Bang" number 2 doesn't happen, I can go straight into solving a Type II and reload, tap, rack, bang.

I'm not a fan of linear non-diagnostic malfunction clearing when it comes to the pistol, but I believe it to be an absolute MUST for the AK system.

Ed L
09-15-2012, 01:43 AM
As far as accessories go, many people bought AKs when they were a $300-400 gun--like Romanian imports like the SAR-1 or WASR. So they may be resistant on spending a lot of money on accessories for it.

They may have bought them because they wanted a reliable semiauto high capacity mil style rifle and that was all they could afford. They may not have the money to spend on a quality RDS as well as the mount and mounting system, that may run them more than the gun.

Or maybe they had other guns in this category and the low price of the AK made it tempting enough to buy. Since they may not consider it their go-to longarm they really are not inclined to spend the money that a decent mounting system and electronic sight would run.